Content and Conversation: Organic Growth Insights from Siege Media

Bernard Huang returns to break down GEO (Generative Engine Optimization) and the big question: is GEO actually different from SEO, or just SEO evolving? We talk about how AI Mode/AI Overviews are changing search behavior, why top-funnel traffic is getting squeezed, and what “good SEO is good GEO” really means in practice. Show Notes:00:00 – Welcome back & why GEO is everywhere03:05 – Is GEO actually different from SEO?07:10 – How AI agents think vs keyword-based SEO12:45 – The traffic apocalypse & AI Mode becoming default18:00 – Mentions vs backlinks in an LLM world24:30 – What people are getting wrong about GEO30:45 – Measuring success: impressions, citations & brand search42:55 – The “long, long tail” and the future of content strategy Show Links:Follow Bernard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bernardjhuang/ Visit Clearscope: https://www.clearscope.io/ Follow Ross on X: https://x.com/RossHudgens   Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross welcomes Gaetano DiNardi, growth advisor and B2B SaaS strategist, to unpack the brutal questions CEOs are suddenly firing at their SEO teams in the AI era: traffic is flat or down, attribution is messy, LLM dashboards look scary, and everyone wants to know if SEO is still “working.” They dig into why traffic is no longer the primary health metric, how AI Overviews and LLMs are breaking the old “rank → CTR → traffic → leads → revenue” equation, and why CMOs should obsess less over sessions and more over demo requests, pipeline, deal size, and overall organic channel performance. Gaetano shares how he’s reframing SEO for mid-market B2B SaaS: shifting from decaying top-of-funnel content to bottom-of-funnel “money pages,” optimizing for LLM citations and “money prompts,” and using concepts like “crash-the-party” comparison pages to win high-intent demand across both Google and AI platforms. They also break down why LLM prompt tracking is the new rank tracking (with all the same pitfalls), how AI platform traffic actually converts compared to Google, what “dark funnel SEO” looks like in practice, and why Gaetano thinks classic TOFU SEO might effectively go to zero while brand, data studies, and opinionated thought leadership pick up the slack. Show Notes0:08 – Gaetano returns & why last year’s SEO playbook no longer works1:17 – CEOs’ top question: “Traffic is down… is SEO still working?”2:17 – Why B2B SaaS is feeling the decline hardest3:16 – The old rank → CTR → traffic → revenue model is broken5:46 – Top-of-funnel content is collapsing (and why TOFU is “dead-ish”)6:13 – The shift to bottom-funnel: BOFU keywords, low volume, high intent7:11 – Flat traffic + rising revenue: the new SEO success story8:01 – What LLMs cite: comparisons, “best X” lists, crash-the-party pages8:38 – Crash-the-party SEO explained in 15 seconds13:21 – LLM prompt dashboards are misleading your executives15:53 – Branded vs. non-branded LLM prompts: why you MUST separate them18:06 – Build a tight list of “money prompts,” not 500 random ones20:06 – Why AI platforms show higher conversion rates than Google22:10 – Dark-funnel behavior: LLM → Google → homepage → convert 24:08 – Google leads have FAR larger deal sizes than AI leads27:35 – SEO attribution is officially “cooked” in the AI era29:27 – Traffic flat, pipeline up 3×: examples from real clients31:25 – Use top-10 stability to prove AI Overviews stole your clicks34:47 – Search is becoming BOFU-first — what that means35:34 – LLM citations as the new leading indicator for SEO39:00 – Exploding topics = more LLM citations due to low consensus41:22 – Engagement validates information gain (why POV content wins)47:20 – What happens to TOFU SEO? (Short answer: it shrinks massively) 48:49 – Why TOFU may survive only for authority, clustering, and links  Gaetano on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/officialg/ Tough Questions CEOs Are Asking About AI SEO: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T_IQXUCXBQtFcLekVFwqv23y8ViuRFJKBIRtn4wcImQ/edit?usp=sharing Does traffic from AI platforms convert “better” than Google search traffic?: https://marketingadvice.substack.com/p/869517ce-4629-429f-addd-518d9342cdff CMOs are frantically asking “what’s our Reddit strategy?: https://marketingadvice.substack.com/p/cmos-are-frantically-asking-whats LLM prompt tracking is the new rank tracking: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/officialg_llm-prompt-monitoring-is-quickly-becoming-activity-737 7069814458097664-KLyi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAj OemoBsmGgXOOcFpcwGVG1B7IlDCvf8io Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

In this engaging discussion, Josh Spilker, Content Marketing & SEO Lead at AirOps, sheds light on the emerging role of the content engineer. He argues that content engineering goes beyond mere text generation and encompasses building efficient workflows using AI. The duo debates the optimal title for this role, exploring the importance of hybrid AI workflows that balance automation with human oversight. Josh also introduces the idea of the 'context librarian' and shares strategies for refreshing content and optimizing outreach, emphasizing personalization in link-building efforts.

Caroline Gilbert — Director of Content & Editorial at Angi — joins Ross Hudgens to explore how one of the largest home-services brands is using AI to scale, transform, and optimize content operations. They discuss how Caroline’s team doubled Angi’s content library to 12,000+ articles, how AI helps maintain top-funnel visibility amid shifting search behaviors, and the nuanced balance between human expertise and generative automation. Caroline breaks down the three pillars of Angi’s AI framework — generation, transformation, and operations — and how they’ve automated everything from brief creation to CMS ingestion while keeping a strong editorial voice. Plus: lessons learned from early AI missteps, real examples of disclosure testing, and how AI is reshaping both content creation and search behavior itself. Show Notes 0:08 – From cost guides to “everything home”: expanding Angi’s library 1:00 – Moving up-funnel: education, troubleshooting, light DIY, and when to hire 2:14 – Top-funnel ROI drops as AI overviews change search behavior 2:56 – Why Angi adopts gen-AI: maintain helpful content without heavy human lift 3:27 – Staying visible where intent is early but brand value matters 4:45 – Content becomes commodity: deciding where humans add unique value 5:55 – Evergreen “how-to” steps vs. human nuance (risks, gotchas, pro POV) 7:18 – How AI is used: full refreshes, component injections, data-driven sizing 9:01 – The real trade-off: human time vs. technology time 9:26 – Scale context: 5k → 12k pages (growth mostly human-led) 9:41 – Three pillars: generation, transformation, operations 10:38 – Ops wins: briefs, automated edits/QA, CMS ingestion, minutes → hours 12:21 – Designers focus on UX polish when ingestion is 98% done 12:58 – Where AI struggled: risky DIY (HVAC/roofing), brand POV, nuance 15:02 – Licensing content is messy (state/county rules): tighter human review 17:19 – Design: generate/transform/streamline + “vibe coding” prototypes 20:18 – Pilot first: small cohorts, guardrails, measure engagement/conversions 21:22 – Disclosure tests: placement/tone matter; users split ~50/50 on trust 25:53 – “Tools, time, or talent”: when to push pro hire messaging 27:39 – Differentiators: pro interviews + Angi’s original homeowner cost data 28:07 – AI helps editors analyze like analysts; humans shape the story 29:19 – Looking ahead: AI shifting search from answers to utilities/experiences Show Links Caroline Gilbert on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caroline-gilbert-41463518/ Angi: https://www.angi.com/ Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Matt Bowers, former Head of SEO at Zapier and Zillow, shares his insights on the dynamic intersection of programmatic SEO and AI. He reveals what works for large-scale AI content strategies and discusses the concept of 'information gain' as a future ranking signal. Highlights include the importance of user experience, the role of AI in indexing to combat duplicate content, and a deep dive into successful AI programmatic sites like Greg.app. Bowers emphasizes the balance between AI and human input in SEO for long-tail visibility and personalization.

Nick LeRoy, an Enterprise SEO consultant and author of *SEO For Lunch*, joins the discussion on the intricacies of 'Best X' listicles and LLM PBNs. They delve into the blurred ethical lines in SEO, questioning the balance between brand trust and ranking gains. The duo debates whether these listicles truly drive qualified leads, emphasizing the importance of transparency and objectivity. With insights on segmenting lists for credibility and the risks of quick fixes, they highlight that quality products are essential for long-term ranking success.

Shannon Minkel, Senior Director of Product SEO at Siege Media, joins Ross Hudgens to unpack one of the biggest questions in search right now: did Google just kill rank tracking beyond page two? They explore what this shift means for SEOs—whether it’s a sign to finally focus on input metrics, how declining referral traffic from ChatGPT impacts strategy, and what Similarweb and Siege Media’s own research reveal about changing engagement rates. From GA4 benchmarks to the future of AI search, this episode breaks down the data, the rumors, and the real-world implications for anyone navigating SEO in 2025. Plus: input metrics, lagging indicators, Similarweb’s ChatGPT data, and why Google’s rumored “AI mode” rollout could redefine how we measure success. 0:08 – Why Google’s rank tracking changes matter now 1:14 – Is rank tracking beyond page two dead? 2:36 – The rise of input metrics and controllable KPIs 4:09 – ChatGPT referral traffic declines across Siege, Ahrefs & Profound 6:12 – Similarweb’s data on ChatGPT usage growth vs. declining engagement 8:04 – What lagging indicators like ChatGPT quality mean for SEOs 9:28 – Interpreting GA4 engagement rates and site health signals 11:05 – Google’s rumored AI mode rollout (and roll-back) 13:17 – The future of attribution in a generative search world 15:21 – How SEOs should adapt reporting for execs in 2025 17:43 – Why input metrics may replace old rank-tracking habits 20:05 – What Shannon is watching most closely in AI search Shannon Minkel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannonminkel GA4 engagement rates → https://www.siegemedia.com/research/ga4-engagement-rates ChatGPT referral traffic study → https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/chatgpt-referral-traffic-data SEJ: https://searchengineland.com/google-search-rank-and-position-tracking-is-a-mess-right-now-461984 Similarweb on ChatGPT growth: https://x.com/Similarweb/status/1965726707832528974 SEMrush: https://www.semrush.com/blog/google-usage-after-chatgpt-adoption/ ChatGPT vs. Google study: https://chatgpt-vs-google.com/ Input Metrics for SEO newsletter: https://newsletter.seomba.com/p/input-metrics-for-seo Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Zach Chahalis, VP of SEO at Apartments.com, joins Ross Hudgens for a deep dive into the high-stakes world of real estate SEO—where listings change daily, pages balloon into the hundreds of thousands, and competition is cutthroat across every SERP. They explore how Zach’s team manages SEO at scale, including 75+ site migrations, advanced internal linking via entity modeling, and custom AI agents built to streamline content operations. From avoiding redirect chains to handling rental “orphan pages,” this episode is packed with hard-earned lessons for SEOs working at enterprise scale. Plus: duplicate content, the future of AI search in real estate, and why your site should never go through a migration before Black Friday. Show Notes 0:08 – Zach’s role at Apartments.com and SEO in high-competition markets 1:00 – Biggest pitfalls in site migrations: communication and redirect logic 2:00 – Why bad redirect chains are like sending mail to your old address 3:39 – What to expect from traffic drops post-migration 5:06 – The difference between redesigns, CMS moves, and full migrations 7:42 – How entity linking models boost internal linking and relevance 9:55 – The user and SEO value of cross-linking neighborhood/location pages 11:51 – How Zach’s team measures and improves internal page authority 13:17 – Their in-house SEO testing program and what they’ve learned 15:01 – When they ignore positive SEO test results to preserve UX 16:41 – Managing orphaned rental pages and lifecycle SEO logic 19:05 – What they show users when listings go offline 21:24 – When to 404 vs. redirect in real estate or e-commerce 23:37 – Competing in a duplicate content world: data + experience wins 25:56 – Using proprietary data (e.g., 3D tours) to differentiate listings 27:28 – Real estate’s slower exposure to AI Overviews 28:19 – AI as productivity booster: writing, research, and landlord tools 30:46 – How internal teams use AI to speed up editorial content creation 33:50 – Why real estate is less impacted by AI than other verticals 35:59 – Indexing the long tail: 250K+ neighborhoods, 40K city pages 37:55 – Agentic workflows: surfacing internal data to speed up content 40:58 – How AI flags Fair Housing violations before content goes live 42:48 – Building secure, proprietary pipelines for real estate data 44:03 – Where to find Zach online Show Links Zach Chahalis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zacharychahalis Zach’s website: https://www.zacharychahalis.com Hyperlocal Content from a National Lens deck: https://speakerdeck.com/zjchahalis/hyperlocal-content-from-a-national-lens Apartments.com: https://www.apartments.com/ Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Tom Critchlow, EVP of Audience Growth at Raptive, joins Ross for a deep dive into how input metrics can transform SEO strategy—especially in an era of declining visibility and messy attribution from AI search engines. They explore how input metrics improve executive reporting, unlock budget, and build cross-functional alignment by shifting focus from vanity outcomes to controllable, operational activities. Tom shares insights from his time at Raptive, lessons from Amazon’s internal frameworks, and practical tips for teams to track quality, not just quantity. If you're navigating SEO in 2025, this episode is your playbook. Plus: scorecards, dashboards, quality benchmarks, and how input metrics can shape strategic storytelling at every level of an org. Show Notes 0:08 – Why “getting SEO done” starts with business communication 1:14 – Executive buy-in and the underrated power of input metrics 2:06 – What are controllable input metrics? Lessons from Amazon 3:24 – Why output-only reporting drives blind decision-making 5:06 – Building reports that pair input + output for alignment 7:01 – Input metrics: weekly/monthly rhythm vs quarterly output 9:15 – Goal-setting tension: input vs output metrics for teams 11:24 – Why SEOs need to “make their work legible” to leadership 12:30 – Input metrics as a path to getting more SEO budget 14:20 – The missing business case for many SEO initiatives 15:33 – Raptive case study: measuring behavior change over clicks 18:02 – Building input metrics from scratch: the 9-month reality 19:51 – Amazon’s evolving metrics: controllability over time 21:26 – Mapping input metrics to what actually drives success 22:33 – The danger of metric sprawl—and how to refocus 23:59 – Why some SEO work becomes “invisible” without input metrics 25:13 – Three metrics per person: a practical ceiling 26:51 – How input metrics support pipeline generation in B2B 28:35 – Communicating SEO value to non-executives via unit economics 30:06 – Stop yelling “fix it”—report what’s not getting done 31:22 – Translating editorial quality into spreadsheet metrics 33:06 – Red, yellow, green ≠ strategic clarity—track actual numbers 34:08 – Attribution is broken: input metrics matter more than ever 36:43 – Benchmarking input metrics against competitors 38:03 – Don’t just track AI visibility—track the work you can control 39:02 – Why input metrics aren’t neutral—and why that’s OK 41:01 – Planning cycles: why it takes 6 months to see input adoption 42:15 – Measuring “quality”: content scores, CSATs, and rubrics 44:25 – Why you must operationalize “quality” to get promoted 46:08 – Manual scoring systems and quality baselines 47:13 – Where to find Tom and what he’s working on next Show Links Tom Critchlow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomcritchlow Tom’s blog: http://tomcritchlow.com Input Metrics for SEO article: https://newsletter.seomba.com/p/input-metrics-for-seo Raptive: https://raptive.com Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross joins Will Critchlow of SearchPilot for a wide-ranging conversation on the evolving landscape of e-commerce SEO and content strategy in the AI era. They cover how e-commerce brands are adapting content for multimodal search, why digital PR is surging, what still works in a zero-click world, and how Siege’s homepage study reveals surprising traffic shifts from AI engines like ChatGPT and Google’s AI Overviews. Ross also shares lessons from working with Instacart, thoughts on EEAT, brand building in 2025, and how SEOs can think more like product teams to win long-term. Plus: goal-setting, basketball, and how to build your perfect calendar. Show Notes 0:08 – Introductions 1:00 – Ross on what e-commerce clients are asking for in 2025 2:12 – High-fidelity content and why it still drives SEO value 3:24 – The digital PR spike—and why it might not be right for every brand 4:17 – Rethinking link building: content that earns links without outreach 5:11 – The shift from link bait to real brand-building campaigns 6:34 – Why measuring content value is still messy 7:28 – Investing in analytics and attribution models that actually work 8:52 – Instacart case study: how it’s still winning in 2025 9:59 – Calculators as a defensible content type against AI overviews 11:15 – Homepage traffic is up 10%—what Siege’s study found 12:56 – Differences in B2B vs B2C AI traffic attribution 14:15 – How AI referrals may go dark: no referrer, just branded visits 15:40 – SearchPilot’s view: aggregating dark and disaggregated traffic sources 17:20 – How LM-driven browsing creates long tail referral lift 18:57 – AI is doing the searching: optimizing for “robot” queries 21:00 – Why retrieval-augmented generation (RAG) matters for e-commerce 22:44 – Digital PR’s role in influencing AI citation engines 23:51 – Siege’s brand mention study: impressions up, but who’s watching? 25:20 – Review volume = the next big SEO edge in e-commerce 26:04 – Instacart’s product reviews may be helping SEO more than you think 27:15 – Human authorship: should you expose expert bylines? 28:52 – Where author signals matter most 30:04 – Real-world reviews are the new long tail content strategy 31:09 – Who’s doing it well? 32:14 – Brand authority, SEO signals, and Siege’s convo with Dr. Pete 33:48 – Building a brand health dashboard (and what to track in 2025) 36:18 – Who owns content? SEO increasingly embedded in product teams 37:40 – Product SEO as a mindset, not just a technical checklist 39:24 – Optimizer mentality, health goals, and personal systems 40:11 – Ross’s “perfect calendar” and how it supports business goals 42:06 – Will on process goals vs outcome goals in business and life 43:44 – Can you be too optimized? Balancing mental health and iteration 45:07 – Long-term vision in a 3-week world 46:00 – Where to find Ross online and what Siege is working on next Show Links ‬ Will Critchlow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/willcritchlow Homepage Study:‬‭ https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/ai-homepage-traffic-increase SearchPilot:‬‭ https://www.searchpilot.com/ Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing