Nick LeRoy, an Enterprise SEO consultant and author of *SEO For Lunch*, joins the discussion on the intricacies of 'Best X' listicles and LLM PBNs. They delve into the blurred ethical lines in SEO, questioning the balance between brand trust and ranking gains. The duo debates whether these listicles truly drive qualified leads, emphasizing the importance of transparency and objectivity. With insights on segmenting lists for credibility and the risks of quick fixes, they highlight that quality products are essential for long-term ranking success.
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insights INSIGHT
Three Types Of Listicles
There are three listicle types: self-hosted, third-party, and sites built solely to manipulate rankings.
LLM-focused PBNs aim to influence models by creating mass "best of" lists rather than serving real users.
volunteer_activism ADVICE
Protect Brand Trust
Avoid self-serving lists that put you at number one without transparency to protect brand trust.
Prioritize user perception because biased lists can damage prospects' willingness to engage.
insights INSIGHT
Rankings Don't Guarantee Enterprise Leads
Ranking first for a local or industry term doesn't reliably convert high-quality enterprise leads.
SEO visibility signals competence but often fails to trigger executive-level inbound decisions.
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Nick LeRoy, Enterprise SEO Consultant and author of *SEO For Lunch*, joins Ross Hudgens to debate a hot topic in SEO right now — the rise of “Best X” listicles and the emergence of what Nick calls **LLM PBNs**.
They unpack the ethics, brand risk, and strategic value of publishing your own “best” lists to capture AI-era visibility and how tactics once considered gray hat are being re-examined in the age of ChatGPT and AI Overviews.
If you’ve ever wondered whether to publish your own “Best X” article (or what happens when you do), this episode dives deep into the data, the risk, and the real takeaways for modern SEO strategy.
**Plus:** brand perception vs. performance marketing, AI training data, the ethics of self-ranking, and why most “shortcuts” aren’t worth it in 2025.
Show Notes
0:08 – Why Nick wrote his post on LLM PBNs and “Best X” articles
1:00 – Defining the three types of listicles: self-hosted, third-party, and PBNs
3:23 – Why AI and search are blurring ethical lines for content manipulation
5:00 – The real risk: brand perception and user trust over rankings
8:01 – Do “Best X” articles actually drive qualified leads?
10:09 – Why these listicles still work tactically in B2B SEO
12:12 – How to do it right: objectivity, transparency, and editorial value
14:01 – The importance of segmenting by use case (“best for enterprise,” etc.)
16:15 – Outbound links, nofollow abuse, and why honesty still wins
17:36 – When to avoid listicles entirely (and why product quality matters most)
20:24 – LLM PBNs vs. traditional PBNs — and why they’re not worth it
23:22 – Affiliate influence and how AI learns from “best of” lists
25:33 – Why bad products can’t rank long term (no matter the tactics)
27:26 – Testing ethically: what Nick learned from black-hat experiments
30:48 – The SMB risk: how FOMO and “easy buttons” hurt small businesses
33:19 – Better investments for local brands than AI visibility schemes
35:20 – Why starting from scratch is tougher than ever in SEO
37:07 – The future of niche review sites like Zyppy and why they matter
38:30 – Final takeaway: research deeply and focus on long-term trust
Show Links
Nick LeRoy on LinkedIn: [https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickleroy/]
SEO For Lunch Newsletter: [https://www.seoforlunch.com/]
Nick’s post on LLM PBNs: [https://www.seoforlunch.com/p/llm-pbns]
Zyppy (by Cyrus Shepard): [https://zyppy.com/]
Siege Media Enterprise SEO Consulting: [https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/enterprise-seo-consultants]
Siege Media Best Fintech Marketing Agencies: [https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/best-fintech-marketing-agencies]
Mentimeter Kahoot Alternatives Example: [https://www.mentimeter.com/blog/education/kahoot-alternatives]
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Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown:
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Content and Conversation: Organic Growth Insights from Siege Media