The Curious Bartender Podcast

Joy is a true legend of the spirits industry. As Master Blender at Appleton Estate in Jamaica, she holds the historic distinction of being the first woman ever appointed Master Blender in the world. A trained chemist, Joy’s remarkable sensory talents and scientific rigour have been instrumental in Appleton’s rise to global prominence, making her one of the most respected figures in rum today.I first met Joy several years ago in Jamaica and have remained fascinated by her pioneering story ever since.In this episode, we delve deeply into what makes Jamaican rum so distinctive, exploring the chemistry behind its bold flavours.We discuss the difference between pot and column stills in respect of rum styles or marques, the Appleton maturation processes, the unique geography of the Appleton Estate, and the detailed chemical processes, including ester formation and higher alcohols and the crucial role of fermentation and ageing in flavour development. We also talk about the newly released Appleton 51 year old - the oldest ever tropical aged rum that has been brought to market and we also discuss the broader challenges facing the rum category, from overcoming misconceptions around quality and value to navigating the complexities of geographical indications On that note - Jamaican Rum GI was established in  In October last year, Jamaica’s Intellectual Property Office amended the GI for Jamaica Rum, originally established in 2016, to ban ageing overseas. This move, pushed by the Spirits Pool Association representing Jamaica’s six distilleries, aims to strengthen the GI However, the change sparked controversy from National Rums of Jamaica (NRJ)—which owns Long Pond and Clarendon—because Maison Ferrand relies on ageing rum abroad. Beyond rum itself, Joy shares the extraordinary personal story of how she became Master Blender, overcoming societal expectations and barriers in Jamaica to carve out a groundbreaking career. She reflects openly on mentorship, innovation, her personal blending style, and her hopes for the future of premium rum.Episode sponsored by Fever-Tree00:00 Intro08:15 What Makes Jamaica Rum Special? Pot Stills, Weight, Diversity13:55 Becoming a Master Blender - Challenges, Chemistry, Culture of Rum23:30 Blending Rum - Consistency, Innovation, Joy’Marques, Hearts Collection, Pot vs. Column28:55 Sugar Cane, Molasses, Water, Fermentation, Chemistry of Appleton, Flocking & Stability40:28 Maturation - Fill Strength, Angel’s Share, Refilling, Cask Types43:35 Appleton Estate 51yo The Source, Ultra Premium Rum, Appleton 8yo, Diversity of Rum Styles, Coconut54:06 Jamaica Rum Geographical Indication (GI)58:33 Future of Jamaica Rum, A Global Rum G, Additives, Nutritional Information1:05:48 The Appleton Estate Effect, Visitors Centre1:08:55 Wray & Nephew Rum - Culture, Uses, Wray & Nephew 17

Esteban is the founder of Casa Endemica which is a stable of brands that includes La Venenosa Raicilla, Derumbes Mezcal, La Higuera Sotol. He has been a major force in championing mezcal outside of he state of Oaxaca (where 91% of mezcal is made) and really led the charge on exposing the amazing spirits of ancestral raicilla (the mezcal of the state of Jalisco).I met Esteban about a year ago when I was writing my agave spirits book, and was instantly blown away by his knowledge of the vast landscape of agave spirits producers but also his deep rooted respect and admiration he has for the culture and methodologies of the communities that make these spirits.This conversation is really a revisit to that same conversation we had in Guadalajara. You can expect to learn how it Filipinos instigated the production of mezcal in Mexico during the 17the century, how archaeological finds near the Colima volcano might hint at a more ancient form of distillation in Mexico that would upend the history books if it were true, the regionality of mezcal and how people and plants play into that, how the mezcal and proposed raicilla DO - designation of origin - falls short and what needs to be done about it, and at the end we talk about Esteban’s latest project - his first distillery… making tequila.Big thanks to Davide Segat from The Nomad Hotel for letting us record there and Gaby Moncada for helping with scheduling!Episode Sponsored by Fever-TreeBuy my agave spirits book here - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Curious-Bartenders-Agave-Safari-appreciating/dp/1788796799Casa Endemica - https://www.casaendemica.com/en/home-eng/00:00 Introduction02:27 Fillipino Distillation Technocoly Arrvies in Mexico07:21 Captcha Clay Pot Distillation Theory16:02 Capacha Still Design, Wixárika Stills26:47 The Mezcal Industry Today - Derrumbes Brand30:37 Raicilla, 400 Cornejos and Mayahuel39:52 Regionality in Mezcal43:02 Sourcing Great Mezcal - Humans Culture, Quality, Economics45:12 Mezcal: Congeners, Industry, Politics, Scale, Value & Opportunity1:09:33 The Mezcal DO - Growing the DO, Infrastructure, Regulating Bodies, Potential Solutions1:17:30 Raicilla - DO, Draft NOM, Fermentation Vessels1:33:13 Bagaso Tequila Distillery - Carbon Neutral Tequila, Sustainability in Agave Spirits

François Thibault, known as Papa Goose, co-created Grey Goose vodka, which revolutionized the vodka market since its 1997 launch. He shares insights on his transition from Cognac to vodka, emphasizing the vital role of Picardy's winter wheat. The conversation explores the purity versus character in vodka, common misconceptions, and the evolution of the premium vodka industry. Thibault also discusses the environmental sustainability practices at Grey Goose and the impact of AI on modern podcasting, enhancing listener engagement.

Jared Brown and Anastasia Miller are internationally acclaimed authors, historians, distillers. They are the co-founders of Mixellany Limited, they have consulted for spirits brands and bars worldwide, contributing significantly to contemporary cocktail culture. It’s also Jared and Anastasia we have to thank for discovering the first known written reference to a 'cocktail' - from 1798.They have written quite a few books including "Shaken Not Stirred: A Celebration of the Martini" and "Spirituous Journey: A History of Drink," additionally they have reprinted classic cocktail books and distilling manuals such as the Cafe Royal Cocktail book and The Distiller of London (which comes up in the conversation) .Jared has been the master distiller of Sipsmith since the distillery was built in 2009 and Anastasia was recently awarded a doctorate in brewing and distilling history - which is rumoured to be the first in history.Their most recent book is called A Most Noble Water, which is a book about gin that takes the established conventions of gin history head on and pretty much destroys them all. On the episode you can expect to learn how and why tonic water was really mixed with gin during the time of the British Raj, how German and Austrian housewives factor into the story of gin, how the royal family influenced drinking culture in the 17th and 18th centuries, the most popular drinks in the Netherlands in the late seventeenth century century (hint - it wasn’t genever, but it does go in a martini), the significance of a 1639 book called The Distiller of London, why the gin craze wasn’t the gin craze, and at the end, a question about who really wrote the savoy cocktail book - plus much much more.03:16 The Commonly Held Myths of English Gin: Dutch Courage, William of Orange, Gin Craze, Gin Acts14:23 Gin & Tonic Mythology, Bonus Daiquiri/Cuba Libre History, Mark Twain’s Doctor, Carbonated Beverages as Medicine24:40 The Origins of Distillation: Silk Roads, Persians, Moors, Arrival in Europe28:21 The 15th Century Female Distillers of Austria and Germany32:19 The Introduction of Juniper into Spirits: Biology, Distribution, Medicine, Early Distillation Manuals & Early Gin-like Drinks42:31 Distillation Technology in the 15th Century – The Migration of Distillation Technology, Historical Research48:56 Albertus Magnus and Roger Bacon, Arnaud de Villanueva, The Philosopher’s Stone53:36 The Royal Families, Conspicuous Consumption, Influencers56:06 Unlicensed Distillers of London, Molasses Spirit, Distilling Books of the 17th Century59:42 The Trajectory of Distilling Knowledge Through Europe Italy: University of Salerno in 12th Century, Responsible Historical Research1:02:56 Netherlands and the Low Countries: The Origins of Genever, Single Shot Rye Distillations, Vermouth Trends in the 17th Century1:06:21 The Distiller of London (1639), The First English Gin, Pink Gin, ‘Sweets’1:13:20 Measuring Alcoholic Strength Throughout The Years: Proof, Hydrometers, Bubble Tests1:15:52 Aqua Crapulum, Recreating Aqua Fructum, Decoding The Distiller of London1:21:59 Continuous Distillation and Neutral Spirit: Charles Derosne, Celier Blumenthal, Anaeas Coffey1:24:07 The Economics of Distilling & Brewing in the 18th Century, Class Divide, FOMO, Female Distillers & Compounders1:29:17 Lower Class Gin – Vitriol, Turpentine, Lime, Ethyl Ether1:32:46 Alcohol Consumption in England in the 18th Century – Social Reform, The ‘Gin Acts’ – Sellers, Distillers, Compounders, Informants – First Reference of ‘Gin’ 1714 – The Fable of the Bees1:45:51 The Gentrification of Gin – Cost to do Business, Introduction of Minimum Still Size – Emergence of London Dry (by 1860) & Old Tom (1811) – Purchasing Gin1:52:41 How Gin Was Being Consumed through the Centuries – Gin Lane, Ginger Bread, Gin Cocktails2:00:20 The Mystery of the Savoy Cocktail Book & Kokuteeru🙏 This episode is sponsored by Fever-Tree

Professor David Mabberley is a world renowned botanist, writer and public speaker, who specialises in the taxonomy of tropical plants. Over more than 50 years he has authored countless scientific papers and identified dozens of new plant species through fieldwork conducted in Africa, Asia, the Pacific, and Australia. He is a former Keeper of the Herbarium, Library, Art and Archives at the Royal Botanic Gardens Kew & Director Emeritus of Royal Botanic Gardens Sydney. He is an emeritus fellow at Wadham College, University of Oxford; adjunct professor at Macquarie University, Sydney; and professor emeritus at the University of Leiden. He has been awarded the Engler Medal in Silver, José Cuatrecasas Medal for Excellence in Tropical Botany and the Linnean Medal - twice. He is also the author of the recently published book Citrus: A World History (link below).The citrus fruit industry is heading for complete collapse and there may not be anything anyone can do about it. We discuss exactly why this is happening and what the potential solutions are, but also take a deep dive into the history of citrus fruits, from their unique biology, early cultivation, hybridisation and mutation, and discover the great grand parents of the modern citrus fruit industry. We delve into the history of citrus as medicine, perfume and culinary uses, as well as their appearance in art and design. Then we discuss the modern citrus industry, the discovery of new species, and hopes for the future. Citrus: A World History - https://www.thamesandhudsonusa.com/books/citrus-a-world-history-hardcover00:00 Introduction03:05 Is the Citrus Fruit Industry Doomed?05:05 The Origins of Citrus Fruit, Asia, Citron, Pomelo, Mandarin, Wild Citrus Fruits, Hybrids09:20 Ancient Farming and Cultivation of Citrus - Arab Trading, Alexander the Great11:12 Citrus in the Renaissance Period, Medici, European Orangeries, Art14:25 Uses of Citrus Fruit Through History16:40 Coca-Cola, Perfume & Early Grey Tea: Bergamots and Neroli20:30 Morphology of Citrus Fruit - Peel, Segments, Seeds, Vesicles24:02 Distribution Strategies of Citrus Fruit & Life Cycle26:30 Presence of Caffeine and DMT in Citrus27:48 Citrus as Medicine, Makruts and Limes, Contraception, Scurvy33:35 Rose’s Lime Cordial & Marmalade36:53 Limes: Key Lime vs. Tahiti, Seedless Mutants39:37 Sweet Orange Varieties: Clementines, Tangerines & Satsumas, Diversification43:05 Grapefruits: Origins and Genetics, Effects on Medication45:15 The Citrus Market: Growing, Insecticides, Hunalonbing, Challenges, Collapse of US Industry52:10 Possible Scenarios for the Citrus Industry, Asian Citrus Psyllid, Importance of Diversity57:57 Closing Thoughts🙏 This episode is sponsored by Fever-Tree📷 Follow me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tristanstephenson/📚 I've written quite a few books on spirits and cocktails - https://www.thecuriousbartender.com/

Kevin Armstrong is a bartender, bar owner, spirits and cocktail educator and the author of Round Building, a manual for the professional bartender. Kevin rose to fame in the London bar scene over 20 years ago as the group bar manager for the Match Bar Group. He wrote and deployed the most comprehensive cocktail training program of the era, contributing significantly to the critical acclaim of bars like Milk & Honey, The Player, Trailer Happiness, and Sosho to name a few. He has since gone on to open Satan’s Whiskers, which over its 12 years of existence has become one of the best loved bars in London and more recently featured in the World’s Best Bars. Kev and I were together in Scotland a few weeks ago and got inthralled in some deep conversations about cocktails and bars. He is known to have strong and well thought out opinions on various topics pertaining to drinks and drinking, so I was delighted when he agreed to come on the podcast. I was also keen to hear about the rise of Satans Whiskers as a globally recognised venue.On the episode you can expect to hear about Kev’s early career in bars and how he transitioned to the match bar group, you can hear us remeniss over the London bar scene as it was in the early noughties, we talk about his time at Soul Shakers working with Michael butt and bars like Mahiki, then becoming a bar operator, first with pubs and then Satan's whiskers. We spend some time talking about modern cocktail bars, both the things we like and don’t like, including homogeneity, ingredients, batching, and more, then we touch on bar awards and finally finish with a surprise quiz! Well, a surprise for Kev that is - not me.Episode Sponsored by Fever-Tree

Iván Saldaña is a Mexican biologist and internationally recognised expert on agave spirits. With a PhD from the University of Sussex, his research focuses on agave ecology and evolution. Saldaña co-founded Montelobos Mezcal and Casa Lumbre, launching innovative brands like Ancho Reyes, Abasolo whisky, and Sotol Nocheluna. He blends scientific expertise with sustainable practices, and is one of the leading voices in the global agave and spirits industries.In this episode, we explore the fascinating world of agave, from biology and genetic diversity to the risks of monoculture farming and crucial pollinators like bats. We discuss the role of terroir in tequila, explore fermentation variables before delving into Mezcal's denominations of origin, ancestral methods, environmental politics, and the balance between tradition and modernity. Lastly, we cover other intriguing Mexican spirits such as Sotol—including celebrity-backed brands like Nocheluna—as well as innovative non-alcoholic spirits like Almave, and concluded with Abasolo Whisky and the cultural significance of nixtamalised corn drinks.This episode is sponsored by Fever-TreeFind Casa Lumbre (and all their products) here - https://www.casalumbretour.comThanks to Paolo for making this happen, and to Carlos for letting us record at Café Pacifico.

Luca Gargano, CEO of Velier and a transformative figure in global rum, shares his extensive Caribbean experiences. He delves into the evolution of the Italian rum market and emphasizes the importance of transparency in labeling. Luca discusses the rich cultural heritage of Haiti's Clairin and the historical significance of Caroni rum, reflecting on artisanal practices and authenticity. He introduces his innovative 'Nomad Project,' blending tradition with modern distilling methods, and highlights the dynamic relationships within the rum industry.

Desmond Payne MBE is Master Distiller Emeritus of Beefeater, one of the world's best loved and most respected gin brands. He is the longest serving gin master distiller in the world, having also spent a 20 year stint at Plymouth Gin. And he is perhaps the most respected gin distiller alive today.I sat down with him in his office at the Beefeater Distillery in London to discuss the history of the brand, the challenges that gin distillers face, the tension between innovation and tradition, what Desmond thinks about the current state and future prospects of the gin category, and much more.If you enjoy this podcast please give it a rating.Episode sponsored by Fever-Tree

Jonathan, known to his friends as JD, is a bar and restaurant operator of nearly 30 years who has been responsible for some of the best loved and most influential cocktail bars of the early 21st century. In 1997 he founded the Match Bar group which through JD’s uncompromising vision and an illustrious cast of future superstar bartenders, made for groundbreaking venues as Match Bar, The Player, Milk & Honey London, Sosho and more. These bars along with the likes of LAB, Lonsdale and others set the standard for cocktail excellence in London through the first decade of the century, defining a generation of drinking in the capital and inspiring all that came after globally. JD then went on to found Street Feast which brought together small food and drink vendors in disused or otherwise useless spaces (like old car parks or former markets) with music and entertainment. Street feast was a casualty of covid however, but JD is now back and involved with a couple of new restaurant projects which we touch on briefly at the end of the conversation.The main part of our chat is centred around the remarkable story of the Match Bar group. Expect to learn how JD met Dick Bradsell by pure chance and convinced him to help open the first Match Bar. How Dale DeGroff became the director of cocktails for Match Bars and introduced Jonathan to a certain Sasha Petraske and a new and title known bar in New York called Milk & Honey. How Sosho and the East Rooms burned to the ground in 2010 jeopardising the whole business, what in JD’s eyes makes a great bar, what he thinks of the current state of cocktail bars in London, and much more.This episode is sponsored by Fever-Tree mixers.