The Curious Bartender Podcast

Today I am speaking with Alexandre Gabriel. Alexandre is the founder of Maison Ferrand, Citadelle Gin, and Plantation—now Planetary—Rum. Expect to learn how a Burgundian farm boy turned his hand to bartending in New York and then went on to innovate across the categories of cognac, gin and rum. We take a deep dive into the production of Cognac - terroir, grape varieties, distillation, maturation, and discuss the changing market of cognac in France and abroad.From there we turn to gin, covering the birth of Citadelle in 1996 and the challenges of establishing the world’s first modern craft gin distillery. The conversation then shifts to rum—Alexandre’s early encounters, the founding of Plantation, double maturation, Jamaican and Barbadian styles, muck, dunder, and the acquisition of West Indies Rum Distillery. We taste our way through the Rockley still, and high-ester ferments, and discuss geographical indications, tradition and community. We also discuss the decision to change the Plantation brand name to Planetary, and much more.00:00 Introduction & Clarification on Jamaican Rum GI05:16 Origin Stories - Childhood, Farming, Marc de Bourgogne, Growing What You Sell, Wine vs. Brandy, Bartending in NYC16:06 Cognac - Acquiring Ferrand, The Cognac Market18:16 The Cognac Regions, Cognac Houses, Geology & Flavour, Terroir, Yeast30:56 Grape Varietes in Cognac - Ugni Blanc & Colombard - Acidity, Stability, Producing Seasons33:36 Emphasis of Distillation over Fermentation37:18 Maturation in Cognac - Coopers, Elevage, Limousin Oak, Gastronomic Approach, Trancais, Fill Strength51:41 Tasting Ferrand 1840 - Finding old Cognac, Perception of Flavour based on Dilution, Historical Recipes, David Wondrich & Mint Juleps, Ancient Still Designs, The Evolution of Tradition1:04:09 Dosage in Cognac - Methods, Purpose, History - Physiology of sweetness and salt perception, sugar quality1:11:59 Changing Perceptions of Cognac - Cognac highballs, Misconceptions and Understanding1:17:52 Creating Citadelle Gin - Gin Market in 1996, First Craft Gin Distillery of Modern Era, Growing Juniper, Legislation, Plymouth Gin, Ferran Adrià1:32:24 Rum: Alexandre’s Early Experiences with Rum1:34:16 Thierry Gardère and Barbancourt, buying barrels, the origins of Plantation, Navy Rum & Mr Fogg1:42:56 Establishing the Plantation Brand - Nicolas Wine Shop Distribution, Naming the brand Plantation, First products, West Indies Rum Distillery team, Amaretto Cask Rum1:47:04 Double Maturation in Rum - Tropical and Continental - History, Benefits1:52:06 Jamaican Rum GI - Regulation Regarding Overseas Ageing, Myers, Captain Morgan - comparison to Single Malt Scotch2:00:18 Clarendon & Long Pond Distilleries - Southern vs. Northern Distilleries Styles in Jamaica - Historical reasons for styles, Esters, Export2:06:16 Muck, Dunder, Cane Vinegar & Bacteria in Rum Fermentation2:09:12 Acquisition of West Indies Rum Distillery (WIRD) in Barbados - George Stade (Founder), Origins of NRJ2:19:41 Stade’s Rum - Rockley Still: World’s Oldest Rum Still, Restoration, First Distillation2:26:22 What is Barbados Rum? Varieties of Stills, History, Using Seawater in Rum Production2:30:58 Tasting Hogo Monster - 2000ppm Esters2:36:05 Stiggin’s Pineapple Rum, Pushing the Limits2:38:16 Barbados Community, Growing Cane on Barbados, Curacao2:41:49 Next Steps: Cognac grapes, Renovating more stills, Navy Rum R&D, Paraguay2:46:41 Changing from Plantation to Planetary - Language, History, ConsultationEpisode Sponsored by Fever-Tree

Sandor Katz is ften called a “fermentation revivalist,” Sandor has spent decades exploring how microbes shape our food, our drinks, our culture, and even our sense of place. He has written a number of book son the subject including Wild Fermentation, The Art of Fermentation, Fermentation as Metaphor, and Fermentation Journeys — the latter chronicling his travels to meet fermentation practitioners across the globe. His bestselling The Art of Fermentation won a James Beard Award and has become the definitive modern guide to the craft. In this conversation, we journey from the very origins of fermentation and the metabolism of alcohol to the staggering variety of fermented foods and drinks in our diets — and why they’re so much more than just flavour. We dismantle common misconceptions around health, freshness, and speed, and dive deep into Sandor’s own path into this microbial worldAlong the way, we unpack the fascinating interplay of bacteria, yeast, and mould, the difference between wild and cultured ferments, and how fermentation can capture the essence of a place, from mezcal to sourdough. We explore everything from lightly fermented tonic beverages and experimental meads to the wonders of koji mould and its transformative enzymes. And yes — we even get into the bad, weird, and downright challenging ferments, from stinky tofu to the notorious surströmming.Whether you’re a brewer, bartender, chef, or simply curious about the invisible life that feeds us, this episode is a deep dive into a living tradition — one that’s as old as civilisation, and as alive as the microbes themselves.02:55 The Origins of Fermentation - Metabolism of Alcohol06:42 The Breadth of Fermented Foods in our Diets - Flavour, Preservation, Texture09:45 Misconceptions About Fermented Food & Drink - Language, Health, Germophobia, Challenging the Notions of Fresh & Fast21:04 Sandor’s Journey in Fermentation - Childhood Encounters, Macrobiotic Diet24:25 Gardening, Fermenting Tomatoes, Other Preservation Techniques, Fermentation Traditions29:50 Microbes: Bacteria, Yeast & Mould - Isolation, Symbiosis, Environmental Conditions, Making Sauerkraut37:14 Pathogenic Bacteria vs. Lactic Acid Bacteria38:17 Wild vs. Cultured Fermentation - Backslopping, Sourdough, Making Yoghurt, Pure Culture Starters, Natto Bacteria47:25 Fermentation as a Manifestation of Place - Mezcal, Bioprospecting for Yeast58:00 Yeast - Efficiency vs. Flavour59:49 Experiments in Alcohol Fermentation - Rice, Chinese Yeast Balls, Sumac Mead, Turmeric Mead1:03:24 Tips for Wild Alcohol Fermentation - Stirring, Sugar, The Myth of Sterilisation, Protocols1:09:00 Lightly Fermented Tonic Beverages - Tepache, Chicha, Country Wines, Orange Blossom Cordial, Meadowsweet Wine, Spruce Tip Wine, Root Beer, Ginger Beer1:14:10 Water Kefir & Kombucha - Biology, Flavour Development, Alcohol Development, Commercialisation of Kefir & Kombucha, Origins1:23:11 Koji Mould - Biology, Applications, Protease Enzymes, Sake, Soy Sauce1:30:25 Use of Fermented ingredients in Bars and Restaurants - Cocktail Hacks, Sustainability, Narrative1:37:41 Life Changing Ferments - Cheese. Stinky Tofu, Conditioning to Fermented Flavours1:40:40 Bad/Weird/Disgusting Ferments - surströmming 

Toby Cecchini is a bartender of some 40 years, the author of Cosmopolitan which remains the best memoir on the life of a bartender, but perhaps best known for inventing the drink by the same name, which defined an era and still attracts love and hate from consumers and bartenders alike. With a storied career spanning decades at some of New York City's most iconic bars, Toby's insights into bar culture, drink creation, and hospitality continue to influence bartenders around the globe.I revisited Toby’s memoir, "Cosmopolitan: A Bartender's Life," ahead of our conversation in New York. It captures a raw and candid snapshot of the New York bar scene of the late '80s and '90s. We being the conversation talking about his shifting perceptions of the book—and the industry itself—over the past two decades.We also address the shifting role of bars as vital social spaces, we discuss cocktail batching, the guest bartending phenomenon, and the blurred lines between bartenders and chefs. Toby also shares some anecdotes from the 80’s including some brutally honest takes on Andy Warhol.Sharp, direct, and refreshingly unapologetic, Toby offers a much-needed perspective for anyone interested in the real nuts and bolts of cocktails and hospitality. From a personal point of view this was a conversation I have been wanting to have for years and it was one of the must fun ones I’ve had on the podcast to date.This episode is sponsored by Fever-Tree MixersTo support the podcast please rate it, subscribe and share. Thanks!02:22 Cosmopolitan the Book - Toby’s Relfections 21 Years Later07:08 The Bar as a Third Place - Purpose, Function, Niches, Democratisation, Performance, Money, Japanese Bars, Hotel Bars18:07 Bartending Then & Now - Staff, Problem Solving, Working the Floor21:18 The Myriad Problems with Guest Shifts24:09 Batched Cocktails vs. A La Minute - Changing perception of a Bartender’s Function, Chef vs. Bartender36:05 Split Basing Cocktails, Rum, Bourbon, Scotch39:56 Creating Unsettling Atmospheres in Bars - 10 Second Theory, Vibes, Music46:10 The Changing Nature of Bartending, Cocktail Renaissance, New York, Public Perception of Cocktails, Nerds53:18 The Psychology of New Yorkers vs. Brits1:00:40 Reminiscing the 80’s & 90’s Bar Scene - Getting Old, Sering Artists (Warhol, Haring, Basquait)1:02:42 Treatment of Hospitality Staff by Famous People, Treatment of Guests by Bartenders, Hospitality1:08:52 Inventing the Cosmopolitan cocktail, The Odeon, Other Claims, Absolute Citron, Formulas & Garnishing1:25:23 Revisiting Cosmopolitan the book1:28:08 The Story of Long Island Bar

Joy is a true legend of the spirits industry. As Master Blender at Appleton Estate in Jamaica, she holds the historic distinction of being the first woman ever appointed Master Blender in the world. A trained chemist, Joy’s remarkable sensory talents and scientific rigour have been instrumental in Appleton’s rise to global prominence, making her one of the most respected figures in rum today.I first met Joy several years ago in Jamaica and have remained fascinated by her pioneering story ever since.In this episode, we delve deeply into what makes Jamaican rum so distinctive, exploring the chemistry behind its bold flavours.We discuss the difference between pot and column stills in respect of rum styles or marques, the Appleton maturation processes, the unique geography of the Appleton Estate, and the detailed chemical processes, including ester formation and higher alcohols and the crucial role of fermentation and ageing in flavour development. We also talk about the newly released Appleton 51 year old - the oldest ever tropical aged rum that has been brought to market and we also discuss the broader challenges facing the rum category, from overcoming misconceptions around quality and value to navigating the complexities of geographical indications On that note - Jamaican Rum GI was established in  In October last year, Jamaica’s Intellectual Property Office amended the GI for Jamaica Rum, originally established in 2016, to ban ageing overseas. This move, pushed by the Spirits Pool Association representing Jamaica’s six distilleries, aims to strengthen the GI However, the change sparked controversy from National Rums of Jamaica (NRJ)—which owns Long Pond and Clarendon—because Maison Ferrand relies on ageing rum abroad. Beyond rum itself, Joy shares the extraordinary personal story of how she became Master Blender, overcoming societal expectations and barriers in Jamaica to carve out a groundbreaking career. She reflects openly on mentorship, innovation, her personal blending style, and her hopes for the future of premium rum.Episode sponsored by Fever-Tree00:00 Intro08:15 What Makes Jamaica Rum Special? Pot Stills, Weight, Diversity13:55 Becoming a Master Blender - Challenges, Chemistry, Culture of Rum23:30 Blending Rum - Consistency, Innovation, Joy’Marques, Hearts Collection, Pot vs. Column28:55 Sugar Cane, Molasses, Water, Fermentation, Chemistry of Appleton, Flocking & Stability40:28 Maturation - Fill Strength, Angel’s Share, Refilling, Cask Types43:35 Appleton Estate 51yo The Source, Ultra Premium Rum, Appleton 8yo, Diversity of Rum Styles, Coconut54:06 Jamaica Rum Geographical Indication (GI)58:33 Future of Jamaica Rum, A Global Rum G, Additives, Nutritional Information1:05:48 The Appleton Estate Effect, Visitors Centre1:08:55 Wray & Nephew Rum - Culture, Uses, Wray & Nephew 17

Esteban is the founder of Casa Endemica which is a stable of brands that includes La Venenosa Raicilla, Derumbes Mezcal, La Higuera Sotol. He has been a major force in championing mezcal outside of he state of Oaxaca (where 91% of mezcal is made) and really led the charge on exposing the amazing spirits of ancestral raicilla (the mezcal of the state of Jalisco).I met Esteban about a year ago when I was writing my agave spirits book, and was instantly blown away by his knowledge of the vast landscape of agave spirits producers but also his deep rooted respect and admiration he has for the culture and methodologies of the communities that make these spirits.This conversation is really a revisit to that same conversation we had in Guadalajara. You can expect to learn how it Filipinos instigated the production of mezcal in Mexico during the 17the century, how archaeological finds near the Colima volcano might hint at a more ancient form of distillation in Mexico that would upend the history books if it were true, the regionality of mezcal and how people and plants play into that, how the mezcal and proposed raicilla DO - designation of origin - falls short and what needs to be done about it, and at the end we talk about Esteban’s latest project - his first distillery… making tequila.Big thanks to Davide Segat from The Nomad Hotel for letting us record there and Gaby Moncada for helping with scheduling!Episode Sponsored by Fever-TreeBuy my agave spirits book here - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Curious-Bartenders-Agave-Safari-appreciating/dp/1788796799Casa Endemica - https://www.casaendemica.com/en/home-eng/00:00 Introduction02:27 Fillipino Distillation Technocoly Arrvies in Mexico07:21 Captcha Clay Pot Distillation Theory16:02 Capacha Still Design, Wixárika Stills26:47 The Mezcal Industry Today - Derrumbes Brand30:37 Raicilla, 400 Cornejos and Mayahuel39:52 Regionality in Mezcal43:02 Sourcing Great Mezcal - Humans Culture, Quality, Economics45:12 Mezcal: Congeners, Industry, Politics, Scale, Value & Opportunity1:09:33 The Mezcal DO - Growing the DO, Infrastructure, Regulating Bodies, Potential Solutions1:17:30 Raicilla - DO, Draft NOM, Fermentation Vessels1:33:13 Bagaso Tequila Distillery - Carbon Neutral Tequila, Sustainability in Agave Spirits

François Thibault, known as Papa Goose, co-created Grey Goose vodka, which revolutionized the vodka market since its 1997 launch. He shares insights on his transition from Cognac to vodka, emphasizing the vital role of Picardy's winter wheat. The conversation explores the purity versus character in vodka, common misconceptions, and the evolution of the premium vodka industry. Thibault also discusses the environmental sustainability practices at Grey Goose and the impact of AI on modern podcasting, enhancing listener engagement.

Jared Brown and Anastasia Miller are internationally acclaimed authors, historians, distillers. They are the co-founders of Mixellany Limited, they have consulted for spirits brands and bars worldwide, contributing significantly to contemporary cocktail culture. It’s also Jared and Anastasia we have to thank for discovering the first known written reference to a 'cocktail' - from 1798.They have written quite a few books including "Shaken Not Stirred: A Celebration of the Martini" and "Spirituous Journey: A History of Drink," additionally they have reprinted classic cocktail books and distilling manuals such as the Cafe Royal Cocktail book and The Distiller of London (which comes up in the conversation) .Jared has been the master distiller of Sipsmith since the distillery was built in 2009 and Anastasia was recently awarded a doctorate in brewing and distilling history - which is rumoured to be the first in history.Their most recent book is called A Most Noble Water, which is a book about gin that takes the established conventions of gin history head on and pretty much destroys them all. On the episode you can expect to learn how and why tonic water was really mixed with gin during the time of the British Raj, how German and Austrian housewives factor into the story of gin, how the royal family influenced drinking culture in the 17th and 18th centuries, the most popular drinks in the Netherlands in the late seventeenth century century (hint - it wasn’t genever, but it does go in a martini), the significance of a 1639 book called The Distiller of London, why the gin craze wasn’t the gin craze, and at the end, a question about who really wrote the savoy cocktail book - plus much much more.03:16 The Commonly Held Myths of English Gin: Dutch Courage, William of Orange, Gin Craze, Gin Acts14:23 Gin & Tonic Mythology, Bonus Daiquiri/Cuba Libre History, Mark Twain’s Doctor, Carbonated Beverages as Medicine24:40 The Origins of Distillation: Silk Roads, Persians, Moors, Arrival in Europe28:21 The 15th Century Female Distillers of Austria and Germany32:19 The Introduction of Juniper into Spirits: Biology, Distribution, Medicine, Early Distillation Manuals & Early Gin-like Drinks42:31 Distillation Technology in the 15th Century – The Migration of Distillation Technology, Historical Research48:56 Albertus Magnus and Roger Bacon, Arnaud de Villanueva, The Philosopher’s Stone53:36 The Royal Families, Conspicuous Consumption, Influencers56:06 Unlicensed Distillers of London, Molasses Spirit, Distilling Books of the 17th Century59:42 The Trajectory of Distilling Knowledge Through Europe Italy: University of Salerno in 12th Century, Responsible Historical Research1:02:56 Netherlands and the Low Countries: The Origins of Genever, Single Shot Rye Distillations, Vermouth Trends in the 17th Century1:06:21 The Distiller of London (1639), The First English Gin, Pink Gin, ‘Sweets’1:13:20 Measuring Alcoholic Strength Throughout The Years: Proof, Hydrometers, Bubble Tests1:15:52 Aqua Crapulum, Recreating Aqua Fructum, Decoding The Distiller of London1:21:59 Continuous Distillation and Neutral Spirit: Charles Derosne, Celier Blumenthal, Anaeas Coffey1:24:07 The Economics of Distilling & Brewing in the 18th Century, Class Divide, FOMO, Female Distillers & Compounders1:29:17 Lower Class Gin – Vitriol, Turpentine, Lime, Ethyl Ether1:32:46 Alcohol Consumption in England in the 18th Century – Social Reform, The ‘Gin Acts’ – Sellers, Distillers, Compounders, Informants – First Reference of ‘Gin’ 1714 – The Fable of the Bees1:45:51 The Gentrification of Gin – Cost to do Business, Introduction of Minimum Still Size – Emergence of London Dry (by 1860) & Old Tom (1811) – Purchasing Gin1:52:41 How Gin Was Being Consumed through the Centuries – Gin Lane, Ginger Bread, Gin Cocktails2:00:20 The Mystery of the Savoy Cocktail Book & Kokuteeru🙏 This episode is sponsored by Fever-Tree

Professor David Mabberley is a world renowned botanist, writer and public speaker, who specialises in the taxonomy of tropical plants. Over more than 50 years he has authored countless scientific papers and identified dozens of new plant species through fieldwork conducted in Africa, Asia, the Pacific, and Australia. He is a former Keeper of the Herbarium, Library, Art and Archives at the Royal Botanic Gardens Kew & Director Emeritus of Royal Botanic Gardens Sydney. He is an emeritus fellow at Wadham College, University of Oxford; adjunct professor at Macquarie University, Sydney; and professor emeritus at the University of Leiden. He has been awarded the Engler Medal in Silver, José Cuatrecasas Medal for Excellence in Tropical Botany and the Linnean Medal - twice. He is also the author of the recently published book Citrus: A World History (link below).The citrus fruit industry is heading for complete collapse and there may not be anything anyone can do about it. We discuss exactly why this is happening and what the potential solutions are, but also take a deep dive into the history of citrus fruits, from their unique biology, early cultivation, hybridisation and mutation, and discover the great grand parents of the modern citrus fruit industry. We delve into the history of citrus as medicine, perfume and culinary uses, as well as their appearance in art and design. Then we discuss the modern citrus industry, the discovery of new species, and hopes for the future. Citrus: A World History - https://www.thamesandhudsonusa.com/books/citrus-a-world-history-hardcover00:00 Introduction03:05 Is the Citrus Fruit Industry Doomed?05:05 The Origins of Citrus Fruit, Asia, Citron, Pomelo, Mandarin, Wild Citrus Fruits, Hybrids09:20 Ancient Farming and Cultivation of Citrus - Arab Trading, Alexander the Great11:12 Citrus in the Renaissance Period, Medici, European Orangeries, Art14:25 Uses of Citrus Fruit Through History16:40 Coca-Cola, Perfume & Early Grey Tea: Bergamots and Neroli20:30 Morphology of Citrus Fruit - Peel, Segments, Seeds, Vesicles24:02 Distribution Strategies of Citrus Fruit & Life Cycle26:30 Presence of Caffeine and DMT in Citrus27:48 Citrus as Medicine, Makruts and Limes, Contraception, Scurvy33:35 Rose’s Lime Cordial & Marmalade36:53 Limes: Key Lime vs. Tahiti, Seedless Mutants39:37 Sweet Orange Varieties: Clementines, Tangerines & Satsumas, Diversification43:05 Grapefruits: Origins and Genetics, Effects on Medication45:15 The Citrus Market: Growing, Insecticides, Hunalonbing, Challenges, Collapse of US Industry52:10 Possible Scenarios for the Citrus Industry, Asian Citrus Psyllid, Importance of Diversity57:57 Closing Thoughts🙏 This episode is sponsored by Fever-Tree📷 Follow me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tristanstephenson/📚 I've written quite a few books on spirits and cocktails - https://www.thecuriousbartender.com/

Kevin Armstrong is a bartender, bar owner, spirits and cocktail educator and the author of Round Building, a manual for the professional bartender. Kevin rose to fame in the London bar scene over 20 years ago as the group bar manager for the Match Bar Group. He wrote and deployed the most comprehensive cocktail training program of the era, contributing significantly to the critical acclaim of bars like Milk & Honey, The Player, Trailer Happiness, and Sosho to name a few. He has since gone on to open Satan’s Whiskers, which over its 12 years of existence has become one of the best loved bars in London and more recently featured in the World’s Best Bars. Kev and I were together in Scotland a few weeks ago and got inthralled in some deep conversations about cocktails and bars. He is known to have strong and well thought out opinions on various topics pertaining to drinks and drinking, so I was delighted when he agreed to come on the podcast. I was also keen to hear about the rise of Satans Whiskers as a globally recognised venue.On the episode you can expect to hear about Kev’s early career in bars and how he transitioned to the match bar group, you can hear us remeniss over the London bar scene as it was in the early noughties, we talk about his time at Soul Shakers working with Michael butt and bars like Mahiki, then becoming a bar operator, first with pubs and then Satan's whiskers. We spend some time talking about modern cocktail bars, both the things we like and don’t like, including homogeneity, ingredients, batching, and more, then we touch on bar awards and finally finish with a surprise quiz! Well, a surprise for Kev that is - not me.Episode Sponsored by Fever-Tree

Iván Saldaña is a Mexican biologist and internationally recognised expert on agave spirits. With a PhD from the University of Sussex, his research focuses on agave ecology and evolution. Saldaña co-founded Montelobos Mezcal and Casa Lumbre, launching innovative brands like Ancho Reyes, Abasolo whisky, and Sotol Nocheluna. He blends scientific expertise with sustainable practices, and is one of the leading voices in the global agave and spirits industries.In this episode, we explore the fascinating world of agave, from biology and genetic diversity to the risks of monoculture farming and crucial pollinators like bats. We discuss the role of terroir in tequila, explore fermentation variables before delving into Mezcal's denominations of origin, ancestral methods, environmental politics, and the balance between tradition and modernity. Lastly, we cover other intriguing Mexican spirits such as Sotol—including celebrity-backed brands like Nocheluna—as well as innovative non-alcoholic spirits like Almave, and concluded with Abasolo Whisky and the cultural significance of nixtamalised corn drinks.This episode is sponsored by Fever-TreeFind Casa Lumbre (and all their products) here - https://www.casalumbretour.comThanks to Paolo for making this happen, and to Carlos for letting us record at Café Pacifico.