The Longing Lab

Send us a textEpisode 24 Travel expert and writer Pauline Frommer illustrates how travel experiences have made her a better seeker, the importance of appreciating the ephemeral moments in travel, why the holy grail of travel is finding one’s soulmate, and the future of the travel industry with AI. Pauline Frommer is Co-President of Frommer Media LLC with her father, travel legend Arthur Frommer. They publish the Frommer’s guidebooks, now in their 65th year, with over 75 million books sold so far. Pauline was also the original editor of Frommers.com, one of the first travel sites on the web. It, too, is part of Frommer Media and receives over 12 million page views per month. Pauline is the author of countless articles, and a number of award-winning guidebooks, including Frommer’s New York City Day by Day and the upcoming Frommer’s New York City 2024. In addition to writing, editing and publishing, Pauline was the host of a nationally syndicated radio show on travel for over 20 years. She currently hosts the Frommer’s Travel Show Podcast, named one of the 13 best for travel by the New York Times. Pauline is married to Columbia University professor Mahlon Stewart, and the mother of two very well-traveled daughters.In this episode, (in order) we talked about…*How longing relates to searching for the meaning of life*How her childhood traveling made her more of a seeker *Why the holy grail of travel is finding soulmates *How travelers set themselves up for disappointment*Her perspective on influencers and how they sell their soul*How AI is stealing travel journalists’ work*Her love advice for her daughters & how it relates to travel*How both a person or a place can grow on you when you explore it more deeply*Why guidebooks can’t be replaced by influencers or AI*The trip she took she considers the most serendipitous Quotes“Longing is the exception not the rule. Longing brings us back to the fundamentals.”“I have déjà vu wherever I go, but I can’t really know if I’ve been a place before.”“I think when you’re younger you think that each experience leads to another. That you’re building something…But I’m also seeing, at this advanced age, that there are different moments in life. When you travel, everything is momentary.  Everything is transitory. Everything is a mirage. If you just embrace the temporariness of it, it can be profound.” “In order to get the free travel (influencers) are hired hands who have to gush about everything and they can’t necessarily tell the truth…By some estimates, one in every ten human beings on earth work in travel. So, there are massive corporations that are hiring these influencers and paying them a penance to replace the marketing departments they used to have. To me it seems really kind of devious on the part of these big businesses."“I think it’s important not to come to a place blindly. You get more out of travel when you read books about a place…When you really dig into it, then you’re more surprised by the place."“When you use your phone to research a place, about 50% of what you get is disguised marketing.”“If you can get past status and how luxurious a place is…If you can look at the fundamental reasons for travel, rather than the superficial ones, I think you’ll have a more fulfilling trip.”

Send us a textEpisode 23 Social psychologist Ellen Langer, AKA the "mother of mindfulness," explains why our perceived sense of control impacts our mental health, how longing and regret are mindless, why there are no good or bad decisions, and her new book, The Mindful body: Thinking our way to chronic health.Dr. Ellen Langer, AKA the “mother of mindfulness,” is a social psychologist and the first female professor to gain tenure in the Psychology Department at Harvard University. She is the author of twelve books and more than two hundred research articles written for general and academic readers on mindfulness for over 45 years.  Dr. Langer has written extensively on the illusion of control, mindful aging, stress, decision-making, and health. Among other honors, she is the recipient of a Guggenheim Fellowship, The Liberty Science Genius Award, and the Staats award for Unifying Psychology. She is the founder of The Langer Mindfulness Institute and is a gallery exhibiting artist. Learn more here: Ellen J. Langer (harvard.edu) In this episode, (in order) we talked about: *The difference between mindfulness and meditation*How and why people try to change their romantic partners*Impact of mindfulness on satisfaction in a relationship*Why perceived sense of control results in mindfulness which results in better health*The illusion of the illusion of control*How she recommends making a decision and why regret is mindless*How to raise children to be more mindful*The key characteristics of mindfulness and mindlessness*The mindlessness of hookup culture*Abundance versus scarcity mindset *Her new book: The Mindful Body: Thinking our way to chronic health*How our sense of perceived time impacts healingQuotes“When we know we don’t know, everything becomes potentially interesting. When you don’t know, and you are actively noticing new things, you couldn’t be happier. You aren’t longing for something tomorrow, because today you are experiencing the most you can experience.” “Hope is much better than being hopeless. But hope has built into it an expectation of failure.” “When you’re actively noticing them (your partner), they feel seen....If you’re both doing this at the same time, the relationship may stay newer for a longer period of time.""What you’re always in control of is your response to whatever situation you’re met with…The situation is neither good nor bad. Stress is not a function of events. It’s a function of the view you take of the events. And you always have available to you multiple views."“Decision making is probably the biggest stressor. There is no right decision. What people should do instead, this is wild, randomly decide what to do and then make the decision work for you. We make a decision to take some action. Once you take the action, you can’t access the quality of the decision.""Given that you can’t compare them (the outcomes of different decisions), for people to experience regret is mindless."“If we get rid of the idea that there are certain things that are bad and other things that are good and that I have to worry about making the right decision so I can maximize the good and minimize the bad, life is just easy.”“We are brought up believing that there are good and bad decisions, and that also means there are good and bad deciders.”“When you’re not in the moment, you’re not there to know you’re not there.”“To desire a meaningless experience doesn’t make sense to me and it sounds mindless."“I don’t think we should do anything that feels meaningless. Even brushing your teeth. Be there!”“Everything is mutable. And the degree to which we can achieve the things we desir

Send us a textEpisode 22 On May 9, 2023, five-year-old Sidney Mae Olson was struck and killed by a truck in a cross walk. Her father, Eric Olson, discusses the longing that transpired following her death and what he’s learned about himself, his relationship with his daughter, and the interconnectedness of everything. Eric Olson is an advocate for vulnerable road users like his daughter. Eric is President of the Sidney Mae Olson Rainbow Fund, which he co-founded with his wife Mary Beth Ellis to create safer, more livable communities for families. Their work to drive change while navigating grief has been featured in the media and has inspired a growing community known as “Sidney’s Rainbows.” Eric is a long-time software company leader and a dedicated supporter of his wife’s professional triathlon career. He is an avid cyclist, trail runner, and skier living in New England with his wife and 3-year-old son Ellis. #livelikearainbowLearn more about donating or volunteering at https://www.therainbow.fund/ In this episode, (in order) we talked about: *How he reframed his loss and developed a new relationship with his daughter*How his relationship with his wife has been shaped by this tragic event *The power of EMDR therapy in helping him process the events of the day*The significance of rainbows in their organization, Sidney’s Rainbows*Advice for someone with a friend who is grieving the loss of a child*How the event galvanized their parenting style with Ellis *How and why they developed the organization Sidney’s Rainbows*Statistics highlighting pedestrian deaths caused by trafficQuotes“I long for a different kind of relationship with my daughter.”“There are moments in life that change your perspective with everything. That was it for me.”“My mind works forward not back. It was less yearning for what we had and more what we hadn’t had yet. You realize you’ve lost the moments that you never get to have. We were a week away from kindergarten orientation."" There’s the saying, ‘You can never swim in the same river twice’ cause it’s always flowing….I’ve thought a lot about that since. How do we maintain that flow forward and connectivity with Sid in a different way.""Your mind naturally wants to fix things. You can be taken down with that.  Or if you choose to look it as a lesson—that we control nothing—then you can see it as an opportunity to let go of some of those things. What I can control is my internal world."“It feels like I’m building a relationship with her where she still surprises me, which she did a lot. One of the things I loved about her was  that she was always wanting to surprise other people and delight them. The morning I left, she left a note and a flower on my desk." “She’s not gone, she’s just here in a very different way.”“Her spirit is part of us. When we make a decision, we are very much consulting with Sid…I talk to her all the time.”“You don’t have to do anything. You just have to show up. That’s hard for me. I’m such a fixer. A lot of what I do for my job is problem solve all day. In situations like this, I realized, in the past, I was looking for ways to fix it. If I couldn’t fix it, (I thought) I shouldn’t be involved."“There are 42,000 traffic deaths a year. I think we just think of that as the cost of our transportation system. But if you look at other places around the world, that is not the case."“Hoping that our story can help drive change to reduce traffic deaths and inspire people to know you can get through more than you think.”“Notice it. Name it. Feel it. Let it flow.”

Send us a textEpisode 21 Psychologist and mind-wandering researcher Dr. Giulia Poerio shares recent research describing characteristics of limerence, who might be predisposed to it, and potential techniques that help alleviate limerent thinking. Due to the lack of understanding of limerence in clinical communities, she describes how it is often misunderstood or misdiagnosed. Dr Giulia Poerio is a Lecturer in Psychology at the University of Sussex in the UK. She has broad research interests and has published widely on mind-wandering, emotion, sleep, imagination, and ASMR. She completed her PhD at the University of Sheffield where she explored daydreaming about other people and its emotional impacts. She then held 2 post-doctoral positions over 4 years. Her first was at the University of York on a grant researching the neural basis of mind-wandering and spontaneous thought. Her second was at the University of Sheffield on a grant researching the impact of the arts, imagination, and narrative immersion on wellbeing. Connect with Giulia here: https://profiles.sussex.ac.uk/p514955-giulia-poerioIn this episode, (in order) we talked about: *Characteristics of limerence: hyperfocus, propensity to mind wandering, attention to detail, difficulty regulating thoughts, extreme sensitivity to rejection*Potential predispositions to limerence: adverse childhood events, attachment styles, daydreaming, anxiety, depression, ADD and autism*The importance of getting good sleep to regulate intrusive thoughts*How limerence is similar to the initial stages of falling in love*The potential benefits of CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) and ACT (acceptance commitment therapy) *Is “no contact” the way to go*The importance of finding a personalized approach to healing*Misdiagnoses due to a the lack of understanding of limerence in clinical communities*Whether unrequited love has to be a necessary condition for limerence*How the LO often has qualities that you feel you lack, so people often feel like their LO’s are narcissistic*How the uncertainty of hookup culture fuels limerence *Potential new areas of research Quotes“In terms of romantic longing, it’s both ecstasy and agony…an anticipated loss.” “If you looked at a person’s semantic network (connections of meaning) between the limerent object and other things in their life, there’d be some hyperconnectivity b/t that person (LO) and absolutely everything else. You can relate to this when they’ve had a breakup, and everything reminds them of that person.”“There are many ADD traits that could be linked to limerence: hyperfocus (ability to become absorbed in certain things at the expense of others), propensity to mind wander, difficulty regulating thoughts. These characteristics maybe don’t cause limerence but might make it more difficult.” “Of 235 survey respondents who said they’d previously experienced limerence or were currently in a limerent episode: 66.4% reported another mental health or neurodevelopmental disorder, the average number of limerent episodes were 7, average age was 33.90, average shortest episode was 15 months, average longest episode over 5 years, average age of onset is 17.”“The fantasy fuels it, so if you poke holes in the fantasy (like disclosing interest to the LO), it takes away what keeps limerence going.”“What I found really interesting from reading people’s descriptions of the kinds of fantasies they would have about their limerent objects was that, yes, there are elements of sexual reciprocation, but a lot of it is about wanting to be seen and to be loved and accepted.”“If you are someone who gets absorbed in experiences and that’s fueling your limerence, find another outlet, one that’s

Send us a textEpisode 20 Professor and author Lisa Phillips discusses society's different expectations for genders in the pursuer/pursued template. In reflecting on her own story of unrequited love, she explains how she recognized what, not who, she really wanted. Phillips shares tips for satisfying the part of some of us that is always longing.Lisa Amy Phillips is the author of Unrequited: The Thinking Woman’s Guide to Romantic Obsession. She’s written about relationships and mental health for The New York Times, The Washington Post, Psychology Today, and other publications. Her NYT Modern Love essay is titled, "I couldn't let go of him. Did it make me a stalker?" She teaches journalism and a class of her own creation called “Love and Heartbreak” at the State University of New York at New Paltz. She’s working on a new book titled,  First Love: The new realities of teen relationships and heartbreak, which will be out in early 2025. Learn more about Lisa on Instagram @lisaamyphillips18 In this episode, (in order) we talked about…*Boundaries: At what point is behavior stalkerish*Varying versions of limerence*Protest Response (coined by Helen Fisher) *Parallels between brain scans of people dealing with rejection and youth scrolling social media*Why it’s so hard for young people to block people*How social media capitalizes on obsession and grief*Gender differences in unrequited love exhibited in history and literature *Filling our longing side (appeasing our hungry ghosts)*Parenting the emotional awakening in young people*How her relationship with her daughter inspired her new book on teen relationships*Her ex-boyfriend’s response to her book and essay that involved him*Research on rebound relationships *How reflection on unrequited love helped her recognize what, not who, she really wanted  Quotes“Longing is a goal and a quest for change.”“You always want to keep in mind that there’s another human on the other end.”“The only thing that differentiates unrequited love limerence from mutual love limerence is the ending of the story.”“We are struggling with the blurred lines right now when it comes to appropriate and inappropriate behavior online.”“We have this culture where it’s a big deal for a woman to ask a man out. What does that say about the pursuer/persued template?”“If you’re a longer, there’s always something inside you that’s a longer. But what you do with it, can truly transform….You can add to your repertoire of what you’re attracted to.” “If I’m not working in a way that fills my creative side, my questing side, my desire to discover and explore and write, then I becomes a little more vulnerable in a lot of ways.”Re: advice for parents working with the teens: “Keep having the courage to express interest and communicate.”“I had to fall apart to realize this very basic thing…You should want someone who is good to you.” 

Send us a textEpisode 19 Psychology professor and author Dr. Mary-Frances O’Connor explains how our expectations encoded in the brain impact our grief when we lose someone we love (through death, divorce, or estrangement). She also illustrates why our brains have to learn over and over that someone is truly gone and why some people experience more intense, persistent and prolonged grief.Dr. Mary-Frances O’Connor is an Associate Professor at the University of Arizona Department of Psychology, where she directs the Grief, Loss, and Social Stress Lab. Her research focuses on the wide-ranging emotional responses to bereavement. Dr. O’Connor also studies difficulties adapting following the death of a loved one, termed prolonged grief. She believes that a clinical science approach toward the experience and physiology of grief can improve psychological treatment. Dr. O’Connor’s recent book, The Grieving Brain: The Surprising Science of How We Learn from Love and Loss has garnered praise from peers and literary critics alike.  Connect with Mary-Frances through her website In this episode, (in order) we talked about…*The impact of time and experiences on the intensity of longing*The grief metaphor of the missing table in a familiar room*Why our brains continue to account for our predictions not being true anymore*Why people avoid spaces after the loss of a loved one or a break-up*The “Gone But Everlasting” theory: why it’s so difficult to learn that our loved ones are gone*How our brains are encoded when we have a bonded relationship with someone*How “Continuing Bonds” work after we’ve lost a loved one (dead or alive)*Prolonged grief: why some people continue to revisit memories of lost loved ones* The difference between wanting and liking and why someone might be more drawn to one feeling over the other*The use of “Yearning in Situations of Loss” scale for those who experience bereavement, a break-up or homesickness*The need for grief education among psychologists, psychiatrists and the general public Quotes“The real world and our internal map of the real world sometimes don’t match up….There are tons of times when you walk into a room and your loved one should be there. The internal map of your world says, ‘My loved one will be there.’ But when they’re not and that expectation is so strong, we often have a very visceral reaction. “I’m not suggesting learning means forgetting….Having new experiences does not mean you are going to forget that close and important relationship you had in those places.”“That encoding, that everlasting belief, is critical when our loved one is alive. That’s what keeps us returning to them. That’s what keeps us seeking them out…When our loved one dies, our brain still believes for a long time that they’re out there somewhere. It’s still reaching for them because it has a solution. And that solution is, ‘Go get them!’ But after a death or a divorce or estrangement, that’s not a solution anymore.”“It is normal many years later to continue to talk about the person and have waves of grief. What is challenging is when those waves of grief (make you feel) like your current life has no purpose without this person. Or you don’t know who you are without this person. Or you feel estranged from the people around you because you feel bitter they haven’t had a loss and you have.”   “Our attachment relationships are as important to our survival as food and water…If someone hasn’t had water for a long time, they’re going to be incredibly thirsty and thinking about water all the time, but you’d never describe them as addicted t

Psychologist Alexandra Solomon discusses how our low accountability dating culture fosters a collective attachment disorder. She provides practical actions to foster healthy relationships. Solomon explores how longing can be a defense mechanism in a culture with high expectations for perfection. She emphasizes self-awareness and accountability in building healthy relationships and the importance of understanding our parents' stories. The podcast explores embracing messy relationships and the importance of communication and boundaries in building trust.

Send us a textEpisode 17 Sociology professor Dr. Lisa Wade takes a deep dive into the history and results of hookup culture on American college campuses based on her research. She reveals the unspoken rules of hookup culture and how the stalled sexual revolution contributed to hookup culture (and in turn young adults having less sex than their parents). Dr. Lisa Wade is an Associate Professor of Sociology at Tulane University. Dr. Wade's publication record includes work on college hookup culture, the sociology of the body, and U.S. discourse about female genital cutting. In 2017, she published American Hookup: The New Culture of Sex on Campus based on her research derived from 101 college students’ journals where they wrote about sex and romance on campus.  In the book, Wade maps out a punishing emotional landscape marked by unequal pleasures, competition for status, and sexual violence. She discovers that privileged students tend to enjoy hookup culture the most, and considers its effects on racial and sexual minorities, students who “opt out,” and those who participate ambivalently. Connect with Lisa through her website In this episode, (in order) we talked about…*The pain, danger, freedom, and selfishness involved in hookup culture*The rules of hookup culture*How by the sexual revolution never succeeding in convincing society to value feminine traits it contributed to the creation of the hookup culture*Why hookup culture is distinctly American *How the erotic marketplace and differences in religiosity and economics play a role in who can participate freely in and who is invited and valued into hookup culture *Why being called desperate is worse than being called a prude or a slut*Virginity on campus*What college students are longing for: genuine options Quotes“Most of them (college students hooking up) have this desire for connection, for meaningfulness, for sex that feels  emotionally intimate—those feelings are thwarted by hookup culture and the lack of accountability and ambiguousness is sustained by everyone pretending not to care about each other or actively not caring about each other.”"In America fun and being carefree is really tightly connected in our imaginations. But, in order to have sex where nothing you do can come back upon you and require you to take care of others, you have to have it be careless as well as carefree. This is a tricky thing to accomplish given that we know sex is often extremely emotional.""You can flirt and be friendly before a hookup, but during a hookup sex should be hot but not warm. Extended eye contact, caressing, and slow kissing (traits considered feminine) is off script in hookup culture. Sex is supposed to be great but not sweet. “By far the most heartsick people in my research were a couple guys, a straight guy and a gay guy, who really desired to have emotional experiences and struggled to find them.”“Students hookup less and have more criticism of hookup culture as they go through their college experience.” "When the daughters of the women who were young adults in the 60s and 70s got to college in the mid-1990s, they applied the logic that women’s liberation is the right to do anything men do. You apply that to sexuality and you get hookup culture." “There really isn’t a pathway for a relationship that doesn’t go through this hookup period."  “Hookup culture isn’t about hooking up with someone you like. It’s about hooking up with someone your friends are going to be impressed by. It’s about status.”“If you have to jump into the deep end to have sex at all, then it makes sense that people are having less sex than before because it’s scarier.

Send us a textEpisode 16 Purity culture recovery coach Linda Kay Klein explains how difficult it is to shed the teachings of purity culture. Using her personal experience and those of the many women she interviewed for her book, Linda discusses how purity culture encouraged longing for a perfect mate, how repression of emotions manifests in our bodies, and how to develop an endoskeleton of sexual ethics.Linda Kay Klein is author of Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement that Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free. Today, she is a purity culture recovery coach, and the founder and president Break Free Together, a not-for-profit organization serving individuals recovering from gender- and sexuality-based religious trauma. Linda has spoken around the world from various TEDx stages to The Apollo’s Women of the World Festival. Her work has been featured by over 150 outlets, including the New York Times, NPR, CBS, NBC, and Elle Magazine. Linda is a trained Our Whole Lives (OWL) sexuality education facilitator, and holds an interdisciplinary Masters degree in gender, sexuality and religion from New York University. Linda has one daughter in diapers and another in college. She is married to a writer and social change agent who inspires her every day.  Connect with Linda through her websiteIn this episode, (in order) we talked about…*Ways in which purity culture encouraged longing for an ideal partner*How “Letters to My Future Husband” set women up for disappointment*What is virginity and what is sex (what we count and what we don’t)*How even after leaving the evangelical church, she couldn't escape purity culture*How purity culture encouraged perfect performance for reward*To be wanted but not savored*Why and how she wrote her book Pure*How she developed a formula to help others heal from purity culture*How repression of her emotions manifested in her body *An exoskeleton versus an endoskeleton model of sexual ethics*Forms of purity culture (not just Christian)Quotes“I had very specific expectations for what sex meant based on having grown up in purity culture…Not only was it penis and vagina, it was sex that was spiritual, deeply loving, and wildly pleasurable…with that man I’d been longing for—that perfect man, that forever man, that destined man.” "The whole time I was in purity culture, I was called a stumbling clock, a thing over which men and boys could trip. I felt like there were eyes on me all around assessing me, and I came up short."“I would try to have sexual exploration with my long-term boyfriend, and I would break into tears. My eczema would come out from the stress, and I would be scratching until I bled. As we started to get anywhere close to having sex, I started taking pregnancy tests out of fear…”"I no longer walk around with shame, fear, and anxiety…but it still lies there dormant waiting for it to be triggered." "As I’ve worked more on recovery work, I see it all the time: lots of back issues, lots of stomach issues, and other physical issues associated with repression of our emotions, choices and selves...those internal muscles tightening, saying, “Don’t let yourself come out!” "In order to have an endoskeleton sexual ethic, we need to have actual thought processes around our sexual decisions….and safe supportive places to talk about it with people who aren’t so ashamed they can’t look it square in the face." Resources mentioned:When the Body Says No by Gabo

Send us a textEpisode 15 Author Laura Carney reflects on how years of longing to belong restricted her, but learning to say, “yes,” to completing her late father’s bucket list, set her free from a false narrative. In this intimate interview, Carney discusses luck, spirituality, grief, true love, and trust. When author Laura Carney discovered her father’s bucket list 13 years after he’d been killed by a distracted teen driver, she decided she’d complete the list to honor him. What she didn’t understand was in doing so she’d learn to honor herself. The story became her recently published book, My Father’s List: How Living My Dad’s Dreams Set Me Free. Laura is a journalist and copy editor in New York. She's been published by the Washington Post, the Associated Press, The Hill, Runner's World, People magazine, Guideposts, Good Housekeeping, The Fix, Upworthy, and Maria Shriver’s Sunday Paper. Her work as a copy editor has been primarily in magazines, for 20 years. Connect with Laura through her website bylauracarney.comIn this episode, (in order) we talked about…*How she became an advocate for spreading the word on distracted driving*How and why she “faked normal” while grieving her father’s death*What the movie Back to the Future has to do with redefining the truth about our family and ourselves*The timeline from when her father died to when she learned of the list to when she completed it*Why her father’s absence at her wedding triggered grief all over again*Why both positions (up or down) of horseshoes are different perspectives of luck*Ways in which she felt she was being primed to complete the list years prior to learning it existed*Why becoming a runner was one of the best things she ever did*How committing to saying “yes” freed her*The items on the list of 60 that were the most difficult to accomplish*How her father’s list changed her sense of spirituality *How she kept meeting strangers who distinctly reminded her of her dad *How she relied on signs (often from strangers) *Her writing ritual and how the writing process went the way she needed it to go not the way she expected *Advice she has for people who want to accomplish a loved one’s last wishes  Quotes“I developed a difficult relationship with uncertainty, so I narrowed in on perfectionism.”“The desire to be seen as normal, that was really all I wanted—all the time. I thought if you weren’t seen as normal, you weren’t safe. It was a longing to belong.”“When I said yes to the list, my soul was saying yes, yes, yes. I saw my dad’s face in the back of my mind nodding and smiling.  I hadn’t had that kind of connection before.”“I was avoiding the story I needed to tell because it was too difficult to tell. Saying yes to the list was the first step... As I learned to say yes, over and over again, I was letting go of the need to be accepted by other people—that longing...”“If we have any part of our parents that we feel we can’t trust, it becomes more difficult for us to learn how to trust ourselves, especially when we’re in their shoes.”“The person (my husband) fell in love with was the girl inside of me who is the real me, not the woman who had so many layers of insecurity, who had become conditioned by the patriarchy to become desirable, like I had no worth as a woman unless I was wanted.”"There’s a difference between longing for something you don’t have because you want to fill an emptiness-- wanting that because it will make you feel better about yourself—that’s an ego pursuit. But feeling called to do something is different because that’s y