The Fourth Curtain

This week's guest is Halo and Destiny's Joe Staten. Beginning as a farmhand, he went on to lead teams in the Halo franchise, be on the core team for Destiny, write a NYT bestselling novel and work with the great Peter Jackson. Now looking for his next role, we discuss how Bungie was like a family business, the most important mysteries and creativity and risk - this week!Episode Highlights – Joseph Staten on The Fourth Curtain Podcast🎙️ Guest: Joseph Staten – Writer, Cinematics Director, Creative Director, NYT Bestselling Author, Voice Actor, and former Halo/Destiny dev.07:50 – Introduction – Alex and Aaron welcome Joseph Staten and reminisce about their early days working together.09:05 – Joseph’s Bungie Origins – How Alex took a chance on Joe and changed his career trajectory.10:45 – From Theater to Game Development – Joe’s academic path from Northwestern University and how it shaped his approach to storytelling.14:15 – Wine, Farm Work, and Video Games – How working at a family vineyard led to playing Myth and ultimately a job interview at Bungie.15:22 – The Wild Flight to Bungie – Joe’s harrowing experience on ATA Airlines en route to his Bungie interview.18:36 – Lessons from a Non-Traditional Career Path – Why diverse backgrounds create stronger game developers.21:30 – The Importance of Curiosity and Hustle – How a self-starter mindset helped Joe navigate the game industry.28:34 – The Journey to Creative Director – How Joe transitioned from Bungie’s publishing team to leading game development.33:24 – Hard Lessons in Leadership – Learning to communicate effectively and navigate failure as a team leader.37:58 – Building Trust in Game Development – Why trust is the foundation of every successful project.40:06 – Playing Halo as a Fan – Joe’s experience playing Halo games he didn’t work on, starting with Halo: Reach.46:03 – ODST’s Development Challenges – How Joe and Paul Bertone led a small team to ship Halo 3: ODST under intense constraints.50:40 – Difficult Decisions in Game Development – The toughest calls made during ODST and Halo Infinite.52:30 – The Scale of Halo Infinite – Managing 800+ developers and the challenges of finishing a large-scale game.56:22 – Why Aren’t There More Marines? – A small but impactful design decision in Halo Infinite.58:26 – The Future of AAA Games – Joe’s thoughts on the shifting industry landscape and what’s next for game dev.1:05:19 – Iteration is Key to Success – Why persistence and iteration define the best games.1:Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

This week's guest is a founder of Games Workshop, publisher of White Dwarf magazine, creator of the Fighting Fantasy Books and Executive Chair of Eidos Interactive Sir Ian Livingstone. This Knight of the British Empire started a business while living in a van, prevailed through a Satanic panic about his Fighting books, saw the promise of a certain Tomb Raider and birthed a mass media entertainment phenomenon. Now using games for education, we talk getting bonkers exclusives, the 3 G's of gamedev and more - this week!🎙️ The Fourth Curtain – S3 Ep01: Sir Ian Livingstone 🎲[00:00:00] – Living in a Van to Build a Games Empire 🚐Ian shares how he and his co-founder lived in a van outside a squash club while starting Games Workshop.[00:08:00] – GenCon, Early Game Distribution & Meeting Gygax 🎲Traveling to GenCon, discovering Dungeons & Dragons, and securing the European distribution rights for TSR.[00:18:00] – Building Games Workshop & Warhammer’s Rise 🏰The journey from selling board games to launching Warhammer and revolutionizing tabletop gaming.[00:26:00] – Fighting Fantasy & Interactive Storytelling 📖How Fighting Fantasy books became a global phenomenon and pioneered branching narratives in gaming.[00:38:00] – Eidos & The Birth of Tomb Raider 🎮The story behind discovering Tomb Raider during due diligence and its meteoric rise in gaming and pop culture.[00:49:00] – The Business of Games & Investing in Innovation 💰Ian’s philosophy on game design, the importance of IP ownership, and why gameplay always comes first.[01:04:00] – Where the Games Industry is Heading 🚀Thoughts on the evolution of games, emerging technologies, and the future of innovation in gaming.[01:11:00] – Closing Thoughts & A Look Ahead 🔮Ian shares insights on the importance of creativity, the future of interactive media, and what’s next for him.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

In this week's episode we recap some of the best moments from Season 2, with John Romero on hits and misses, how Peter Molyneux makes a game, Ed Fries on Xbox's Valentines Day massacre, Warren Spector on how playstyle is everything and much more! 🎮 The Fourth Curtain – S2 Best Of Highlights[00:00:00] – Season 2 Recap & Patreon Launch 🎉Alex and Aaron reflect on Season 2, announce the new Patreon, and tease upcoming guests.[00:08:00] – John Romero’s First Game 👾John shares how he programmed his first game on a mainframe in 1979 and discovered Colossal Cave Adventure.[00:26:00] – Mike Wilson & The Wild West of Publishing 🤠Mike tells stories from GT Interactive, including publishing DOOM and the infamous Fabio Screensaver.[00:38:00] – Game Delays & Business Realities ⏳Industry veterans discuss the tough decisions behind delaying games and the shift from retail to digital.[00:49:00] – Mitch Lasky on Venture Capital & Gaming 💰Mitch talks about investing in Instagram, Twitter, Uber, Snapchat, Riot Games, and Discord.[01:04:00] – The Xbox Origin Story – The Valentine's Day Massacre 🎮Ed Fries recounts the high-stakes meeting where Microsoft approved the original Xbox.[01:27:00] – Jesse Schell Predicts AI in Games 🤖Jesse discusses AI-driven NPCs, procedural storytelling, and the future of interactive experiences.[01:32:00] – AI’s Impact on Game Development & Publishing ⚙️Frank Gibeau and others explore AI’s role in monetization, engagement, and player behavior.[01:43:00] – Season 3 Tease & Farewell 🎭A sneak peek at upcoming guests, including Sir Ian Livingstone, and an invitation to join the Patreon.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Welcome to the Season Two finale episode! And it's a Monster!!!! (Never fear, we will be back in a couple of weeks with some special episodes to bridge the gap to Season Three!)This week's guest is Ed Boon, co-creator of Mortal Kombat and Injustice and Chief Creative Officer of Mortal Kombat and NetherRealm Studios! Starting in the world of pinball, he moved onto arcade games at the legendary Midway Games and is still making blockbusters. We discuss his World Record entry in the book of Guinness, the cultural impact of MK and the key question he asks at the start of every project, this week!Highlights!06:15 – 06:53Alex introduces Ed Boon as the longest-serving video game voice actor and co-creator of Mortal Kombat, discussing his legacy in the gaming world.08:55 – 10:01Aaron shares a story about a rumor regarding Mortal Kombat being chosen over Judge Dredd for arcade cabinet production. Ed clarifies the details and dispels the myth.11:00 – 11:41Ed Boon reflects on the early days of making games, the small team behind Mortal Kombat, and the excitement of seeing it come together.14:41 – 15:29Ed discusses Mortal Kombat's early impact on the gaming industry and the role of digitized characters, mentioning how it was one of the first games to popularize the technology in arcades.25:31 – 26:39Ed describes the transition from Williams Electronics to Midway and later NetherRealm Studios, reflecting on the various "chapters" of his career in video game development.28:33 – 29:42Ed talks about the support Warner Brothers gave to Mortal Kombat 9, including extending the development timeline, which allowed it to become one of the biggest-selling games in the franchise.39:34 – 41:40Ed explains how the home version of Mortal Kombat and other controversial games like Doom and Night Trap drew attention, eventually leading to the creation of the ESRB ratings system.45:05 – 46:00Ed shares a memorable moment seeing 17 Mortal Kombat 2 arcade machines lined up at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, which made him realize the game's massive popularity.47:39 – 47:54Ed recounts how he became a member of the Screen Actors Guild to voice Scorpion’s famous line, "Get over here!" for the Mortal Kombat movie, still receiving royalty checks to this day.48:18 – 49:33Ed describes the approach to developing new Mortal Kombat games, focusing on how to add new features and experiences to keep each version fresh for players.01:01:32 – 01:03:37Ed praises the successes of other Warner Bros. studios like Rocksteady with Arkham and Avalanche with Hogwarts Legacy, reflecting on the camaraderie and collaboration within the Warner gaming famiSupport the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Ok, we know this episode should be called Something Fun on the Toilet with MK, but we're chose to keep it classy. Our guest this week is Michail Katkoff, a veteran of Zynga, Supercell, and Rovio, partner in Play Ventures, and founder of Deconstructor of Fun. In all of these different roles he's developed a unique understanding of our industry from different perspectives. We discuss product management, insane mobile profits and the ecosystem necessary to support game studios.00:00 – Introduction: Alex and Aaron introduce Mishka, highlighting his diverse roles in the gaming industry.02:00 – First Steps: Mishka talks about his first role in the industry at Digital Chocolate and his encounters with Trip Hawkins.05:45 – Cultural Differences in Gaming: Mishka reflects on the differences between the Finnish and Californian working cultures.08:30 – Early Influences: Growing up in the Soviet Union, Mishka shares how Pong and Sega sparked his passion for gaming.10:50 – From Business to Games: Mishka recounts how he left the corporate world to pursue his dream in the gaming industry.14:00 – Product Management Explained: Mishka breaks down the role of a Product Manager in gaming and how he helped shape game monetization.16:30 – Crazy Discoveries in Player Data: Mishka reveals insights from analyzing player behavior and the surprising findings about in-game sales.22:00 – Ethics in Monetization: A candid conversation about the moral questions surrounding microtransactions and the 'whale' phenomenon.29:00 – Building the Finnish Gaming Scene: Mishka explains how Nokia and the Finnish education system helped create a gaming ecosystem.36:00 – Challenges for Indie Developers: Discussion on the current challenges small studios face in breaking into the mobile gaming market.40:30 – Favorite Games: Mishka shares his love for grand strategy and historical games, and his mobile game preferences.45:00 – Deconstructor of Fun: How Mishka started Deconstructor of Fun and grew it into a leading platform for industry insights.50:00 – Launching a Studio: Mishka talks about starting a game studio and its eventual acquisition by Sony.This episode is perfect for anyone interested in the gaming industry, product management, or how mobile gaming has evolved over the years!Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Mike Pondsmith, the legendary creator of Cyberpunk and founder of R. Talsorian Games, shares captivating stories from his expansive gaming career. He discusses the inventive design behind Night City and the surreal journey of transitioning from tabletop RPGs to video games. Mike reveals amusing anecdotes about his collaboration with CD Projekt Red and how flying cars were initially left out of Cyberpunk 2077. Listeners will enjoy insights into the challenges and humor of game development along with a nostalgic trip down memory lane.

This week on The Fourth Curtain, we’re joined by Mihai Pohontu, CEO and Chairman of Amber Studio, a distinguished figure in the gaming industry. Mihai, who was recently named Romanian Entrepreneur of the Year, shares his fascinating journey from the upheaval of post-revolution Romania to becoming a leader in global game development. A self-described business romantic, Mihai offers insightful perspectives on the role of capitalism and entrepreneurship in shaping a better society. Amber Studio, a valued partner to this podcast, has provided critical development services across the industry, including work on popular titles like Stumble Guys. In this episode, we dive into Mihai’s unique path into gaming through quality assurance, the philosophy behind game testing, and Amber Studio's approach to talent development in emerging markets. We also explore the industry’s challenges and opportunities in training the next generation of game developers and how Amber is actively contributing to this effort. Join us for an in-depth conversation about the future of game development, business philosophy, and the personal experiences that shaped Mihai’s career.Timestamped Highlights:[00:01:00] – The Value of Game Testing: Mihai discusses how starting as a tester provides invaluable insights into how software grows and evolves, highlighting the benefits for aspiring game developers.[00:05:00] – Amber Studio and the Global Game Development Ecosystem: Mihai shares the journey of Amber Studio, including its partnership with major studios and contributions to games like Stumble Guys.[00:09:00] – Business Romantic Philosophy: Mihai introduces his idea of "business romanticism," where capitalism is seen as a transformative force for good, beyond shareholder value.[00:12:00] – Bridging the Junior to Senior Talent Gap: Discussion on the challenges of transitioning junior developers to senior roles and the initiatives Amber Studio has implemented to train and support emerging talent in Romania and Mexico.[00:19:00] – Amber Studio's Growth: Mihai details the expansion of Amber Studio into multiple countries, the diversity of platforms they work on, and the unique challenges of managing such a large team across different regions.[00:24:00] – Mihai’s Upbringing in Revolutionary Romania: He reflects on growing up in Bucharest during a time of political and economic upheaval, which shaped his relationship with video games as an escape.[00:32:00] – Early Career at Activision: Mihai recounts his early experiences working as a QA tester for games like Civilization Call to Power and Medieval: Total War at Activision.[00:46:00] – The Formation of EA Romania: Mihai explainSupport the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest Warren Spector is the creative producer behind vastly influential games like Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Deus Ex and many others. Now working on (working title) Argos, he joins us to talk about the birth of the immersive sim, having amazing mentors and ways to start a game, this week!The conversation dives deep into Warren's career, discussing his design philosophy around player agency and choice, the history behind some of the most influential immersive sim games, and his experiences working at companies like Origin Systems, Ion Storm, and Disney. Warren shares behind-the-scenes stories about the development of Deus Ex, his transition from tabletop gaming to video games, and his collaborations with industry legends like Doug Church and John Romero. The episode also touches on Warren’s current work with OtherSide Entertainment and his ambitious, upcoming project, Argos.Timestamped Highlights:[00:01:00] Warren discusses his design philosophy: player choice and agency.[00:02:30] Alex recalls working with Warren at Junction Point on Epic Mickey.[00:03:50] Aaron shares a humorous story about flubbing an interview with Warren during his early career.[00:10:00] Warren talks about his early work with TSR and Steve Jackson Games in the tabletop space.[00:12:00] Working on System Shock and the role of Looking Glass Studios.[00:18:00] Warren’s transition from tabletop to video games and his early days at Origin Systems.[00:20:00] The creative process behind Deus Ex and Warren’s work with Ion Storm.[00:24:00] Story of how John Romero offered Warren creative freedom at Ion Storm to make Deus Ex.[00:31:00] Warren shares his love for board games and his extensive library of books and car magazines.[00:39:00] Growing up in New York and his passion for film, leading to his career shift.[00:46:00] Warren’s first exposure to Dungeons & Dragons in 1978, which profoundly influenced his game design philosophy.[00:53:00] His critique of games that lack meaningful player choice and why he strives to offer alternative solutions in his games.[01:00:00] A sneak peek into his new project at OtherSide Entertainment, Argos, though much remains under wraps.[01:05:00] Discussion about working with Disney and the creative challenges of designing Epic Mickey.[01:09:00] Alex and Warren reflect on their experiences working within Disney and the corporate dynamics.This episode is packed with gems on game design, industry insights, and entertaining stories from one of gaming's most celebrated designers.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

In this episode of The Fourth Curtain, Alex and Aaron sit down with Ed Fries, a pivotal figure in the gaming industry and former VP at Microsoft, where he helped launch the Xbox. Ed shares stories from his early days at Microsoft, including how he made the leap from working on Office products to heading up the game division. He dives into the creation of the original Xbox, the challenges the team faced, and the infamous "Valentine’s Day Massacre" meeting where Xbox's future hung in the balance.Ed also talks about his passion for game development, stretching back to his teenage years programming for Atari, and his ongoing support for indie game developers through his venture fund, 1UP Ventures. Throughout the conversation, Ed’s storytelling shines as he reflects on the impact of the Xbox, Halo, and his own entrepreneurial journey in the gaming world.For listeners interested in the deeper technical side of gaming history, we recommend reading Racing the Beam, a book that explores the development of the Atari 2600, the platform that first captured Ed’s imagination as a developer.Timestamped Highlights:[00:01:00] – Alex and Aaron introduce Ed Fries and reminisce about the early Xbox days.[00:07:00] – Ed shares his background in game programming for the Atari 800.[00:13:00] – The origin of the first-ever screensaver, developed by Ed at Microsoft.[00:23:00] – Ed's thoughts on the evolving game industry and his passion for supporting indie developers.[00:29:00] – How Ed transitioned from the Office team to leading Microsoft’s game division.[00:34:00] – Behind the scenes of the Xbox’s early development, including the "Valentine’s Day Massacre" meeting with Bill Gates.[00:45:00] – The crucial role Halo played in the success of the Xbox launch.[01:00:00] – Reflections on the challenges Microsoft faced with hardware and pricing during the Xbox’s lifecycle.[01:05:00] – Ed’s post-Microsoft career, including Halo 2600 and the founding of 1UP Ventures.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Join Alex Seropian (founder of Bungie) and Aaron Marroquin as they dive into the incredible minds behind the video game industry in The Fourth Curtain. In this episode, they chat with Frank Gibeau, the CEO of Zynga, who takes listeners on a journey through one of the most legendary corporate turnarounds in gaming history. From his early days at EA to leading Zynga through a $12.7 billion acquisition by Take-Two, Frank shares valuable insights into leadership, strategy, and the ever-evolving world of mobile gaming.Episode Highlights:[00:00:00] Frank humorously reflects on Zynga’s rough early days, where the company was generating nearly $700 million, but only $12 million in profit. He explains how the team turned things around, transforming it into a mobile gaming powerhouse.[00:01:00] The hosts discuss Zynga’s historic $12.7 billion acquisition by Take-Two Interactive. Frank shares an amusing anecdote about how this deal briefly held the title of the largest video game deal—until Microsoft acquired Activision shortly after.[00:05:00] Frank recounts his journey from EA to Zynga, emphasizing the cultural shift he implemented and the tough leadership decisions needed to improve the company’s operations.[00:12:00] A deep dive into the creative struggles behind iconic games like The Sims and how collaboration with game developers drove EA’s early success.[00:32:00] Frank and Alex reflect on the challenges of navigating a public company’s pressures, making tough calls on game launches, and the importance of putting quality ahead of short-term financial goals.[00:43:00] Frank reveals how he was initially recruited to Zynga and how he used Words With Friends' chat feature to bring in top talent like Bernard Kim.[00:50:00] The episode wraps with Frank discussing Zynga’s strategy of acquiring studios to build “forever franchises,” sharing key lessons learned from EA’s acquisitions and how Zynga avoided those pitfalls.This episode is a must-listen for anyone fascinated by the business side of gaming, leadership, and the evolution of mobile games.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505