The Fourth Curtain

Ok, we know this episode should be called Something Fun on the Toilet with MK, but we're chose to keep it classy. Our guest this week is Michail Katkoff, a veteran of Zynga, Supercell, and Rovio, partner in Play Ventures, and founder of Deconstructor of Fun. In all of these different roles he's developed a unique understanding of our industry from different perspectives. We discuss product management, insane mobile profits and the ecosystem necessary to support game studios.00:00 – Introduction: Alex and Aaron introduce Mishka, highlighting his diverse roles in the gaming industry.02:00 – First Steps: Mishka talks about his first role in the industry at Digital Chocolate and his encounters with Trip Hawkins.05:45 – Cultural Differences in Gaming: Mishka reflects on the differences between the Finnish and Californian working cultures.08:30 – Early Influences: Growing up in the Soviet Union, Mishka shares how Pong and Sega sparked his passion for gaming.10:50 – From Business to Games: Mishka recounts how he left the corporate world to pursue his dream in the gaming industry.14:00 – Product Management Explained: Mishka breaks down the role of a Product Manager in gaming and how he helped shape game monetization.16:30 – Crazy Discoveries in Player Data: Mishka reveals insights from analyzing player behavior and the surprising findings about in-game sales.22:00 – Ethics in Monetization: A candid conversation about the moral questions surrounding microtransactions and the 'whale' phenomenon.29:00 – Building the Finnish Gaming Scene: Mishka explains how Nokia and the Finnish education system helped create a gaming ecosystem.36:00 – Challenges for Indie Developers: Discussion on the current challenges small studios face in breaking into the mobile gaming market.40:30 – Favorite Games: Mishka shares his love for grand strategy and historical games, and his mobile game preferences.45:00 – Deconstructor of Fun: How Mishka started Deconstructor of Fun and grew it into a leading platform for industry insights.50:00 – Launching a Studio: Mishka talks about starting a game studio and its eventual acquisition by Sony.This episode is perfect for anyone interested in the gaming industry, product management, or how mobile gaming has evolved over the years!Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Mike Pondsmith, the legendary creator of Cyberpunk and founder of R. Talsorian Games, shares captivating stories from his expansive gaming career. He discusses the inventive design behind Night City and the surreal journey of transitioning from tabletop RPGs to video games. Mike reveals amusing anecdotes about his collaboration with CD Projekt Red and how flying cars were initially left out of Cyberpunk 2077. Listeners will enjoy insights into the challenges and humor of game development along with a nostalgic trip down memory lane.

This week on The Fourth Curtain, we’re joined by Mihai Pohontu, CEO and Chairman of Amber Studio, a distinguished figure in the gaming industry. Mihai, who was recently named Romanian Entrepreneur of the Year, shares his fascinating journey from the upheaval of post-revolution Romania to becoming a leader in global game development. A self-described business romantic, Mihai offers insightful perspectives on the role of capitalism and entrepreneurship in shaping a better society. Amber Studio, a valued partner to this podcast, has provided critical development services across the industry, including work on popular titles like Stumble Guys. In this episode, we dive into Mihai’s unique path into gaming through quality assurance, the philosophy behind game testing, and Amber Studio's approach to talent development in emerging markets. We also explore the industry’s challenges and opportunities in training the next generation of game developers and how Amber is actively contributing to this effort. Join us for an in-depth conversation about the future of game development, business philosophy, and the personal experiences that shaped Mihai’s career.Timestamped Highlights:[00:01:00] – The Value of Game Testing: Mihai discusses how starting as a tester provides invaluable insights into how software grows and evolves, highlighting the benefits for aspiring game developers.[00:05:00] – Amber Studio and the Global Game Development Ecosystem: Mihai shares the journey of Amber Studio, including its partnership with major studios and contributions to games like Stumble Guys.[00:09:00] – Business Romantic Philosophy: Mihai introduces his idea of "business romanticism," where capitalism is seen as a transformative force for good, beyond shareholder value.[00:12:00] – Bridging the Junior to Senior Talent Gap: Discussion on the challenges of transitioning junior developers to senior roles and the initiatives Amber Studio has implemented to train and support emerging talent in Romania and Mexico.[00:19:00] – Amber Studio's Growth: Mihai details the expansion of Amber Studio into multiple countries, the diversity of platforms they work on, and the unique challenges of managing such a large team across different regions.[00:24:00] – Mihai’s Upbringing in Revolutionary Romania: He reflects on growing up in Bucharest during a time of political and economic upheaval, which shaped his relationship with video games as an escape.[00:32:00] – Early Career at Activision: Mihai recounts his early experiences working as a QA tester for games like Civilization Call to Power and Medieval: Total War at Activision.[00:46:00] – The Formation of EA Romania: Mihai explainSupport the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest Warren Spector is the creative producer behind vastly influential games like Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Deus Ex and many others. Now working on (working title) Argos, he joins us to talk about the birth of the immersive sim, having amazing mentors and ways to start a game, this week!The conversation dives deep into Warren's career, discussing his design philosophy around player agency and choice, the history behind some of the most influential immersive sim games, and his experiences working at companies like Origin Systems, Ion Storm, and Disney. Warren shares behind-the-scenes stories about the development of Deus Ex, his transition from tabletop gaming to video games, and his collaborations with industry legends like Doug Church and John Romero. The episode also touches on Warren’s current work with OtherSide Entertainment and his ambitious, upcoming project, Argos.Timestamped Highlights:[00:01:00] Warren discusses his design philosophy: player choice and agency.[00:02:30] Alex recalls working with Warren at Junction Point on Epic Mickey.[00:03:50] Aaron shares a humorous story about flubbing an interview with Warren during his early career.[00:10:00] Warren talks about his early work with TSR and Steve Jackson Games in the tabletop space.[00:12:00] Working on System Shock and the role of Looking Glass Studios.[00:18:00] Warren’s transition from tabletop to video games and his early days at Origin Systems.[00:20:00] The creative process behind Deus Ex and Warren’s work with Ion Storm.[00:24:00] Story of how John Romero offered Warren creative freedom at Ion Storm to make Deus Ex.[00:31:00] Warren shares his love for board games and his extensive library of books and car magazines.[00:39:00] Growing up in New York and his passion for film, leading to his career shift.[00:46:00] Warren’s first exposure to Dungeons & Dragons in 1978, which profoundly influenced his game design philosophy.[00:53:00] His critique of games that lack meaningful player choice and why he strives to offer alternative solutions in his games.[01:00:00] A sneak peek into his new project at OtherSide Entertainment, Argos, though much remains under wraps.[01:05:00] Discussion about working with Disney and the creative challenges of designing Epic Mickey.[01:09:00] Alex and Warren reflect on their experiences working within Disney and the corporate dynamics.This episode is packed with gems on game design, industry insights, and entertaining stories from one of gaming's most celebrated designers.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

In this episode of The Fourth Curtain, Alex and Aaron sit down with Ed Fries, a pivotal figure in the gaming industry and former VP at Microsoft, where he helped launch the Xbox. Ed shares stories from his early days at Microsoft, including how he made the leap from working on Office products to heading up the game division. He dives into the creation of the original Xbox, the challenges the team faced, and the infamous "Valentine’s Day Massacre" meeting where Xbox's future hung in the balance.Ed also talks about his passion for game development, stretching back to his teenage years programming for Atari, and his ongoing support for indie game developers through his venture fund, 1UP Ventures. Throughout the conversation, Ed’s storytelling shines as he reflects on the impact of the Xbox, Halo, and his own entrepreneurial journey in the gaming world.For listeners interested in the deeper technical side of gaming history, we recommend reading Racing the Beam, a book that explores the development of the Atari 2600, the platform that first captured Ed’s imagination as a developer.Timestamped Highlights:[00:01:00] – Alex and Aaron introduce Ed Fries and reminisce about the early Xbox days.[00:07:00] – Ed shares his background in game programming for the Atari 800.[00:13:00] – The origin of the first-ever screensaver, developed by Ed at Microsoft.[00:23:00] – Ed's thoughts on the evolving game industry and his passion for supporting indie developers.[00:29:00] – How Ed transitioned from the Office team to leading Microsoft’s game division.[00:34:00] – Behind the scenes of the Xbox’s early development, including the "Valentine’s Day Massacre" meeting with Bill Gates.[00:45:00] – The crucial role Halo played in the success of the Xbox launch.[01:00:00] – Reflections on the challenges Microsoft faced with hardware and pricing during the Xbox’s lifecycle.[01:05:00] – Ed’s post-Microsoft career, including Halo 2600 and the founding of 1UP Ventures.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Join Alex Seropian (founder of Bungie) and Aaron Marroquin as they dive into the incredible minds behind the video game industry in The Fourth Curtain. In this episode, they chat with Frank Gibeau, the CEO of Zynga, who takes listeners on a journey through one of the most legendary corporate turnarounds in gaming history. From his early days at EA to leading Zynga through a $12.7 billion acquisition by Take-Two, Frank shares valuable insights into leadership, strategy, and the ever-evolving world of mobile gaming.Episode Highlights:[00:00:00] Frank humorously reflects on Zynga’s rough early days, where the company was generating nearly $700 million, but only $12 million in profit. He explains how the team turned things around, transforming it into a mobile gaming powerhouse.[00:01:00] The hosts discuss Zynga’s historic $12.7 billion acquisition by Take-Two Interactive. Frank shares an amusing anecdote about how this deal briefly held the title of the largest video game deal—until Microsoft acquired Activision shortly after.[00:05:00] Frank recounts his journey from EA to Zynga, emphasizing the cultural shift he implemented and the tough leadership decisions needed to improve the company’s operations.[00:12:00] A deep dive into the creative struggles behind iconic games like The Sims and how collaboration with game developers drove EA’s early success.[00:32:00] Frank and Alex reflect on the challenges of navigating a public company’s pressures, making tough calls on game launches, and the importance of putting quality ahead of short-term financial goals.[00:43:00] Frank reveals how he was initially recruited to Zynga and how he used Words With Friends' chat feature to bring in top talent like Bernard Kim.[00:50:00] The episode wraps with Frank discussing Zynga’s strategy of acquiring studios to build “forever franchises,” sharing key lessons learned from EA’s acquisitions and how Zynga avoided those pitfalls.This episode is a must-listen for anyone fascinated by the business side of gaming, leadership, and the evolution of mobile games.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest this week is the legend Jordan Weisman. Creator of BattleTech, Crimson Skies and the world's first alternate reality game, he's now working on Adventure Forge, a platform to help non-engineers make videogames. We talk buying D&D from Gary Gygax, at Gary's house!, the secret to entrepreneurship and creating the "Bungie bubble" this week![00:07:00] Interview Introduction: Jordan Weisman’s Career HighlightsAlex introduces Jordan Weisman’s career and his influential work in gaming and alternate reality games (ARGs).[00:10:00] The Origins of WizKids and Collectible MiniaturesJordan talks about founding WizKids and the success of HeroClix.[00:15:00] Early Gaming Experiences and Inspiration for ShadowrunJordan discusses how his early exposure to Mesoamerican culture and tabletop games influenced the creation of Shadowrun.[00:26:00] Adventure Forge: A Platform for Game CreationJordan introduces Adventure Forge, a platform for user-generated content (UGC) in video games.[00:34:00] The Rise of MechWarrior and Working with ActivisionDiscussion about the development of MechWarrior 2 and the challenges faced with Activision.[00:44:00] Disney, Star Wars, and Interactive ExperiencesJordan talks about his work on interactive systems for Disney, including the development of a system that allows actors to recognize guests.[00:59:00] Alternate Reality Games and StorytellingJordan explains his ideas for alternate reality games (ARGs) and the concept of discovery-based storytelling.[01:08:00] The Making of "I Love Bees" and Pitching to SpielbergJordan recounts how the ARG I Love Bees came to life and his meetings with Steven Spielberg and Kathleen Kennedy.Jordan's kickstarter campaign - check it out! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jordanweisman/sea-of-legends-open-world-crpgSupport the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest this week is the co-creative director of Arkane Studios, Harvey Smith. Starting out in QA for System Shock and other games, he went on to be lead designer for Deus Ex and ultimately made Dishonored at Arkane. We talk meeting your heroes, recombining systems and the secret to making a magical game this week! [00:00:00] - Harvey Smith discusses his first encounter with a game that sparked his passion, System Shock, comparing it to seeing one's first love in a movie.[00:45:00] - Harvey recounts his experience with Ultima 8, explaining how he created a list of 100 ways the game could have been improved and how he was eventually given a team to fix these issues.[01:05:00] - Harvey shares the development of Deus Ex, discussing how the team decided to extend the development period by six months after realizing the game could be significantly improved.[01:13:00] - Harvey emphasizes the importance of having additional time for game development, citing examples like Deus Ex and Dishonored, where extra time made a substantial difference in quality.[01:17:00] - Harvey and Alex discuss the challenges and rewards of working in the game industry, touching on topics like QA work, the grind of production, and the passion required to succeed.[01:25:00] - The episode wraps up with thanks to the listeners, information about the production team, and a call to action to visit the podcast's website and follow on various platforms.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

In this exciting episode of The Fourth Curtain, hosts Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin dive deep into the world of gaming journalism with none other than Dean Takahashi, the lead writer of GamesBeat at VentureBeat. With over three decades of experience covering tech and gaming, Dean shares his unique insights on the evolving landscape of the gaming industry, the challenges of maintaining journalistic integrity in the age of AI, and the stories that have shaped his career.Timestamped Highlights:[00:00:00] - Introduction and Dean’s Perspective on AI in JournalismDean discusses the importance of unique perspectives in journalism, especially in an era where AI-generated content is becoming more prevalent.[00:12:00] - The Art of Juggling Multiple StoriesDean explains how he manages to publish over ten stories a day, offering a peek into the meticulous planning and execution that goes into his work.[00:18:00] - Dean’s Early Gaming Experiences and Journalism JourneyA nostalgic look at Dean’s introduction to video games, from playing Pong in Las Vegas to his first console, Intellivision, and his journey to becoming a prominent gaming journalist.[00:27:00] - The Ethics of Game Journalism and Insider InformationThe hosts explore the ethical considerations of covering the gaming industry, from handling embargoed information to maintaining neutrality.[00:43:00] - The Future of Gaming: Blockchain, Web3, and BeyondDean shares his thoughts on the future of gaming, including the potential of blockchain and Web3 technologies in revolutionizing the industry.[00:51:00] - Challenges and Hopes for the Gaming Industry’s FutureA discussion on the impact of unionization, open platforms, and the importance of accessibility in the gaming industry.Tune in to hear Dean’s incredible stories and his predictions for the future of gaming. Whether you’re a seasoned industry veteran or a casual gamer, this episode offers valuable insights into the dynamic world of video games.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Rod Fergusson, a legendary producer known for his work on iconic video games like Gears of War and Diablo, shares behind-the-scenes insights into the gaming industry. He discusses the emotional rollercoaster of completing projects and the intense pressures faced during high-stakes presentations. Fergusson reflects on his journey through major studios, the importance of teamwork in game development, and the nostalgic impact of classic games on his career. Listeners gain a unique perspective on the evolution of gaming and the role of innovation in empowering developers.