Philokalia Ministries

We picked up this evening once again with Step 4 on Obedience. John describes it for us as standing before God with a kind of simplicity and humility; truthful living before God and others. When we live in this manner we unburden ourselves and so run a good race without a heavy conscience and also protected from the cunning of the demons who make exacting investigation of our deeds.  After describing obedience and defining it, John then turns to give us beautiful examples of those who lived it in an heroic fashion. In particular, we are told of a thief who seeks admittance to a monastery. Gradually the superior test his obedience through the confession of his sins privately and publicly. The thief does this with profound humility and obedience that is shocking even to Saint John. It is then that he is received into the monastery and given the habit. He overcame the shame of his sin through the shame of bringing all things to light.  St. John goes on to describe the fruit that this bore within the community. They were so formed by the spirit of obedience through their skillful superior and physician of souls, that they began to live the angelic life. Their love and generosity towards each other was unparalleled. They would seek to protect each other’s consciences and also to take each other’s burdens upon themselves. --- Text of chat during the group:  00:07:36 FrDavid Abernethy: starting tonight on page 70, paragraph 9   00:41:45 renwitter: Without this type of public, and total confession, is there any way to attain to a similar level of freedom? I feel like so many carry certain sins as secrets from all but their confessor, and maybe spouse.   00:44:14 Fr. Miron Jr.: 1st sunday of Great Lent   00:55:47 renwitter: This also perfectly compliments what we discussed in the Evergetinos on Monday - the simple, very easy way that idle conversation becomes evil conversation, and thus something that needs to be avoided even in the very beginning when it seems really harmless. There is nothing harmless about what is idle.   01:03:28 Ashley Kaschl: It’s not hard since a lot of things die in this heat 😂   01:04:17 Barb Heyrman: I am reminded of a homily on one very hot & humid Sunday.  “If you think this is hot…try bell.”   01:07:59 renwitter: I am reminded of my favorite quote from an old cartoon (the context is the Dad of the family dropping his son off for Sunday school). Son: “But Dad, Sunday school is so not cool." Dad: “You know what's not cool Bobby? Hell.”   01:08:32 Ashley Kaschl: 😂😂   01:16:15 Ashley Kaschl: I was on the go earlier, so you don’t have to respond to this, Father.    But the public confession of past wrongs in the earlier paragraphs reminds me of the General Judgment.   01:16:19 Ashley Kaschl: And in contemplating that, at first, there’s a real, gripping fear that all will be made clear, nothing will be hidden. Since sin is an absence, an act contrary to reality, that wounds both us and the Body, this type of confession, which we will all endure in the end, can’t NOT be healing and ultimately freeing.    But then, in understanding the sacramental life, Who and where I’m made for, and if one has a penitential disposition, it’s less about standing in shame or fear, and more like we would stand before everyone with a deep recognition, humility, and admission for having been who we are not and did not want to be.   01:21:14 Rachel Pineda: Thank you!   01:21:16 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you Father!   01:21:36 Bonnie Lewis: A blessed birthday to you !   01:21:40 Maple(Hannah) Hong: Thankk you   01:21:43 Rachel Pineda: Happy Birthday! LOL 60   01:21:45 Sheila Applegate: Happy Birthday!   01:22:00 carolnypaver: Birthday Blessings!   01:22:02 kevin: happy Birthday   01:22:05 Maple(Hannah) Hong: Happy Birthday!   01:22:10 Rachel Pineda: The kids still think you are ancient but look young. God bless! Happy Birthday!  

We began this evening with the final pages of Hypothesis 21 describing the importance of not opening one’s conscience to an individual unless guided by the Grace of God to do so. It is not a small thing to entrust oneself to the care of another, especially the care of one’s soul. Therefore we are counseled to be discriminating. For the elder that we choose, or rather the elder that God chooses for us, is a gift; a relationship of love and devotion. An Elder does not see himself as detached from our struggles but rather enters into them and takes penance and prayer upon himself for our healing. We do not struggle in isolation. Understanding the importance of this relationship,then, we should pray for our elder and love him.  Moving on to Hypothesis 22 we are warned to avoid meetings with careless men and avoiding anything that would disturb the peace of our heart or the stillness that has been hard won. We must never see idle conversation as insignificant. Rather we must understand that if allow ourselves to be drawn along by such conversations our consciences will coarsen and we will find ourselves engaged in grievous conversations and behaviors.  We are given a wonderful example of an elder who, because of his purity and innocence, finds God responding immediately to his prayers for others. No impediment is placed before the action of God‘s grace in his life or acting through his intercession. We should not be surprised when the Fathers tell us that if we neglect our relationship with God or treat His grace cheaply that our prayers go unanswered. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:23:16 B K-LEB: like fr zozima   00:29:29 Ambrose Little, OP: “outraged ... since he did not rely totally on the help of God." Love that.   00:31:10 Anthony: So much for "Grace Alone."  One the one hand, all good is from God, all good is a grace.  But, we must exercise the faculty of human nature (which is also a gift) to choose the grace, to at least choose a desire for the grace.  I think St. Anselm says this in "One Truth" or "On Free Will"   00:32:22 Anthony: "On Truth"   00:39:21 Anthony: In America, we tie sin to things: sugary drinks, alcohol, guns, etc.  It is very selective. But traditionally, sin is attached to our deficiencies of soul - and a Puritan look at sin does not take this psychology into account.   00:40:36 Sheila Applegate: Attachment to having life the way we want it?   00:50:10 B K-LEB: i agree anthony   00:50:38 B K-LEB: i personally think the inner spiritual sins are far worse than the physical sins   00:52:02 B K-LEB: i'd rather go to heaven fat and humble than thin and proud, haha   00:53:18 Ren: It would be so good for seminarians to read this particular hypothesis when they study confession. So much meaningful, and practical advice. The way to engage the penitent, the call to enter into repentance with them…all just so good.   00:54:41 B K-LEB: too much theology can make us proud pharisees   00:56:56 Anthony: Copts require new priests to spend 40 days in monastery   00:57:56 Bridget McGinley: The Jesuits used to not be able to listen to women's confessions until they had been a priest for 10 years.   01:02:50 B K-LEB: isn't spiritual pride essentially the worst kind of sin?   01:04:59 Anthony: He gives us a remedy: using the 2nd person plural in the Our Father so we lump ourselves together with all other sinners: "Forgive US OUR trespasses as WE forgive those who trespass against us / Lead US not into temptation but deliver US from evil."   01:20:36 Ren: The warning that idle words quickly become harmful ones is really, really helpful. I have often seen this happen in myself, yet I’ve never heard it explicitly said that the one can so easily lead to the other. It casts a far more serious light on consenting to idle conversation, knowing how easily it leads to something more sinister. So many “little sins” become more sinister when you examine the greater sins that the open the door to. I know that even thinking about addressing this is terrifying for me…but it does make me think about how much idle conversation one is exposed to in television, movies, radio, social media…definitely thought provoking.   01:31:06 Ren: Awesome way to make a discussion of the Fathers topically connected to the holiday :D GO REVOLUTION!! ;-)   01:34:46 B K-LEB: thank u so much  

This evening we picked up with Step 4 on Obedience. Saint John puts it before us in an unvarnished fashion. It is hard work. It offers us great freedom; freedom from all of our concerns about the things of the world, daily circumstances, or what others do or say to us. Yet, it is a rough way because it means letting go of our own will, self-judgment and opinion. We freely give these things over to another who becomes our “helmsman”.  The helmsman becomes our “nous” - the eye of the heart - while we lack that purity of heart.  One does not choose to live in obedience indiscriminately, Saint John tells us. Rather, we must make sure that we embrace obedience and give our judgment over to one who can truly guide us along the path that leads to the kingdom. Otherwise, Saint John tells us, we should get no profit from our subjection. For this reason we must write the good deeds of our elder on our hearts and constantly remember them. For once we have chosen to live in obedience, either under an elder or within our particular vocation in life and to our particular vows, we are inevitably going to be attacked by the evil one who desires to make us distrust our elder.  Obedience is of the greatest value because in humbling the mind in the body it frees us from all the things that stir the passions within us. Obedience is not meant to be a form of oppression or of infantilizing others. An elder is to embrace his disciple with the greatest love and desire for his well-being. For in the end he will be held responsible for the one God has placed in his care. --- Text of chat during the group:  00:11:14 FrDavid Abernethy: page 69 n.4   00:11:19 FrDavid Abernethy: On obedience   00:17:13 Fr. Miron Kerul-Kmec Jr.: I’m young!   00:29:29 Anthony: For what it's worth, here are attorney saints: Augustine, Fidelis Sigmaringen, Thomas More, Aloysius Gonzaga.  The only one I think who was led to the spiritual life without trauma was Fidelis of Sigmaringen.  There have to be more attorney-saints.   00:30:38 Anthony: Well, St. Thomas More began well but was rarified through trauma   00:40:22 Ambrose Little, OP: sometimes you do. 😄   00:44:54 Anthony: St Seraphim of Sarov: "Headache may be caused by agitated and excessively forced mental activity."  Last sentence of Spiritual Instruction #15.  Maybe obedience helps us avoid overthinking.   00:49:14 M C: I have found it difficult to find an orthodox spiritual director.   00:53:35 Ambrose Little, OP: Would you think that this guidance applies to, e.g., our bishop and/or the Holy Father? The CCC says we owe religious submission of intellect and will. Makes me wonder about what's going on in the Church these days.   00:58:19 Ambrose Little, OP: Definitely recommend reading the Holy Father's letter on the liturgy published today. Very powerful stuff. (Sorry, gotta run to pick up the younguns. God bless, y'all.)   00:58:59 Art: Desidero Desideravi   01:02:33 Anthony: Book recommendation: "Papacy and Revolution" by EEY Hales.  It was the "conservative" (but really liberal because they were so headstrong?) Jansenists who unwittingly had a seminal role in bringing about the French Revolution.   01:04:39 Anthony: i.e. Oliver Cromwell in England   01:13:00 Sam Rodriguez : My first exposure of that teaching “put no trust in yourself” was the Spiritual Combat by Scupoli. Is a core tenet of his, from the earliest pages, if I remember correctly   01:15:46 M C: Thank you!   01:15:53 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father!   01:16:06 Maple(Hannah) Hong: Thank you!  

What a beautiful group this evening. Once again we hear a young brother asking  questions about transgressing the commands and guidance given by an elder. What we hear over and over again is an emphasis upon the fact that an elder is not disconnected from one in his care. If a person transgresses a command or ignores the guidance of an elder, he is to return to him without fear or with the expectation that his humility will be met with anything but gentleness, tenderness, and further counsel. Of course, this does not mean we fall into neglect or become indifferent about striving to live holy lives.  What we find in the Fathers again and again is an emphasis upon the value of repentance; turning to God with humble hearts and receiving a flood of his grace and mercy.  Again the brother asks if one should simply neglect to learn about the spiritual life so as not to be held accountable for particular sins. The elder quickly tells him that such a thought is sinister in that it blocks the path to true healing. Sin brings its own suffering. Repentance is a gift from God that opens up a path to healing and hope.  Why would one not want to know the path that God has opened up for us? Why would one not desire the wisdom of the counsel of the fathers in order that they might truly be healed? Furthermore, the elder emphasizes that God values the person of his servants precisely because they imitate Christ himself. They offer advice with intense and warm prayer to God and make their own the sufferings of others crying out to God, “Master save us, we perish.“  Save US! We do not struggle as Christians in isolation but we embrace one another’s struggles as our own. --- Text of chat during the group:  00:16:40 David Fraley: Hello to all.   00:16:52 FrDavid Abernethy: page 180 letter K.  Hypothesis 21   00:17:17 FrDavid Abernethy: hi Dave   00:17:25 FrDavid Abernethy: where are the snacks??   00:19:01 maureencunningham: thank you Ren   00:24:58 carolnypaver: What page/section?   00:25:09 renwitter: =Page 181   00:25:16 carolnypaver: TY   00:34:35 Sheila Applegate: I often feel like Sisyphus rolling the rock up the hill only  to have it come crashing down. Rinse. Repeat.   00:35:39 Debra: Same

We returned this evening to Step 3 on Exile. St. John concludes by simply telling us that exile - simplifying one’s life - creates a stable character. This is a precious gift and so we must guard our minds and our hearts so that we do not corrupt ourselves by entering once again into what is worldly and disorderly. Saint John concludes Step 3 by taking a moment to speak to us about dreams. A dream involves the minds activity when the body is asleep. The mind, as we know, can be very active; often swept along by the things of day-to-day life or by what rest deep within the unconscious. Saint John warns us that the demons can use our dreams by playing the role of prophet. They convince us that our dreams have deep meaning, they tell us something important about the future, or tell us what is happening in a loved one’s life. Demons can transform themselves into angels of light and lead us into a kind of unholy joy and conceit over what is revealed within our dreams. We can find the demons making sport of us when we so much credence to their interpretation. Therefore, we should distrust our dreams; knowing that like the fantasies in our waking hours they can be used against us in dangerous ways.  We then turned to Step 4 on Obedience. Saint John begins to emphasize its importance for us in the spiritual battle. We are to seek this as one of our most important weapons because it conforms us in a special way to Christ -  whose food was to do the will of His heavenly Father. An obedient soul listens deeply to what God and one’s superior is telling him. Obedience protects us from the delusion of our own judgment, opinions and reasons. We do not see all ends and the fact that we ignore this does not go unnoticed by the evil one. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:11:12 FrDavid Abernethy: page 66 paragraph 24   00:28:36 Lee Graham: Entertaining our thoughts while awake   00:34:29 Iwona Bednarz-Major: Aquinas says that our imagination can be seen by demons (and good angels, as originally they are both superb intellectual beings), since they are formed in our intelligence. Is that where the spiritual warfare takes place in dreams (logismoi)?   00:39:26 Ryan Schaefer: At Franciscan U a lot of students supposedly had visions. Some students seemed very proud of the fact that they’ve seen angels, seen the future, etc… always seemed like a red flag to me   00:43:56 Bridget McGinley: Little nervous, I don't dream ( at least I don't remember). My soul!?!?   00:46:50 Cindy Moran: ]   00:49:09 Ryan Schaefer: The TORs at Franciscan always told us that we would receive consolations if we are following Gods will. Often they said if we are not following God then we would NOT receive a “spirit of peace”. Is this incorrect? How does this relate to para. 29   00:52:05 Rachel: Everytime I've read this, it has confused me a bit. Since it can be dangerous to speak about the interior life on account of the demons who will try to trick us at every moment, how are we supposed to approach confession and the revealing of thoughts to one's confessor or spiritual director? Even here it seems to me one has to be very discerning and careful.   00:52:10 Rachel: LOL   00:56:29 Ambrose Little, OP: well!   00:56:56 Rachel: Okay, ! That was what I was going to ask about the grace of the Sacrament. But we went on to dreams etc. :)     I think when I first became Catholic this witnessing was something that made me pause. Wow, thank you   00:57:04 Iwona Bednarz-Major: Fr. David, continuing my previous thought, I was always thinking that demons can only have an insight into our inner life based on our behavior but lately I've read Aquinas: Summa, First Part, Question 111. The action of the angels on man Article 3. Whether an angel can change man's imagination? with hims stating: “I answer that, Both a good and a bad angel by their own natural power can move the human imagination. " and then explaining further that thought: “An angel changes the imagination, not indeed by the impression of an imaginative form in no way previously received from the senses”, I was perplexed. If you would have any insight on that from your perspective in the future, that would be great. Thank you.   00:58:57 Rachel: Oh, I missed this week's class. 🙃   00:59:47 sue and mark: ok, thank you..   01:02:43 Iwona Bednarz-Major: thank you   01:18:02 Lee Graham: I totally agree with you   01:20:45 Anthony: Obedience has a very important role in daily work.  As craftsman is obedient to the methods of the trade and masters; a government worker is obedient to the law's "you shall" in regard to enforcement - especially when he does not want to enforce the law; a day laborer is obedient to the payor.  Obedience is especially essential in a medieval guild system.  All life is master-apprentice.   01:22:44 Anthony: mass commodity is modern edicatin   01:22:49 Anthony: education   01:22:59 Ashley Kaschl: Sorry I didn’t type fast enough before but I wanted to touch on what you were saying a paragraph ago about obedience and humility.    I think you’ve said before that at the heart of the word ‘Obedience’ is the meaning ‘to hear’, and that humility, being tied to obedience, is prone to silence.    I was thinking about something I heard a couple years back from my pastor that the word Silent, is comprised of the same letters which spell the words Listen and Enlist. So it just brought to mind that in humble silence of our prayer we listen (obedience) for His voice so that He can enlist us in the particular task He has set before us, that we might be caught up in God’s purpose.   01:23:54 Carol Nypaver: Wow!   01:27:15 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father...so wonderful to be here!   01:27:17 Sheila Applegate: Thanks again, Father.   01:27:20 Ryan Schaefer: God bless you father thank you!   01:27:21 Art: Thank you Father.  Goodnight all.   01:27:21 Miron Kerul Kmec: Thank you  

We continued with the incredible counsel of the Fathers about how one discerns when to embrace the advice and counsel of others, specifically one’s Elder. The first distinction made is about advice - counsel that is a part of the spiritual tradition as a whole and so valuable in and of itself. This should be embraced faithfully - for it is given by the goodness and kindness of one’s Elder. When that relationship has grown throughout the course of the years a command may be given by an Elder. This command, however, is only given under specific circumstances; never casually. One must have a kind of clarity and sense of commitment to what is being asked of the Elder. This is to be done by making a prostration, a bodily action and sign of obeisance showing one’s desire to take hold of the command of the Elder. The Elder, then, in an equally concrete fashion must give his blessing. In doing so he takes upon himself the commitment to pray and fast that the one in his care would be able to fulfill the command. We see in all of this the depth of the relationship that must exist between an Elder and the one in his charge. We do not simply expose ourselves to information, reading the writings of the Elders and applying them to our lives. Rather, we enter into a living tradition and it is in and through this relationship between an elder and the one in his care that spiritual growth is made. It is a relationship of love that mirrors the relationship that Christ has with each of us. He calls us to give ourselves to Him and follow Him and in doing so He gives us himself in the most holy Eucharist. The command always holds within it the grace to help us fulfill it.  --- Text of chat during the group: 00:17:46 FrDavid Abernethy: Anthony Coniaris   00:17:55 FrDavid Abernethy: Beginnners Guide to the Philokalia   01:09:50 Ren: This reminder that the Elder prays for the one whom he counsels is very helpful. I am not sure there is anything more humbling than being prayed for - or fasted for! Knowing that another is investing themselves so deeply on your behalf definitely spurs one on to greater dedication. The gift demands a response.   01:11:26 Ren: Yes. Wow. Imagine that: God himself, in the person of Christ, fasted for each one of us. Spent himself praying for each of us. So very humbling.   01:12:09 Carol Nypaver: Absolutely.   01:20:09 Ren: Just a little PSA for everyone: we have switched our email service to MailChimp. If you did not receive an email in advance of tonight’s group, please check your spam filter, and mark it as not junk. Thank you!   01:21:32 David Fraley: Thanks Fr David!   01:21:47 Debra: The short link, tonight, still triggered a 'Threat Warning' from Avast lol   01:21:58 Ambrose Little: stop using Avast   01:22:20 Fr. Miron Kerul-Kmec Jr.: 2nd experience with baptism!   01:22:28 Eric Williams: Keeping you busy and out of trouble. ;)   01:22:54 Debra: You're making me want to switch to the East lol  

We continued our reading of step three on Exile. As with so many things said within the Ladder of Divine Ascent, the words of Saint John are jarring. It is not because John seeks to be abrasive or provocative; rather he is presenting us with the Gospel through the lens of the monastic vocation. It is God who embraced exile in the greatest sense through the incarnation. Christ, out of love for the Father  and His will and out of love for us, exiles himself into the depths of humanity and of our sin in order to raise us to new life. Our exile is simply a response to this great gift of love and sacrifice on our behalf. We freely choose to exile ourselves from the things that pulls away from fulfilling the will of God or loving Him unconditionally not because of any hatred for the world or the things of the world. It is the desire for God that guides and shapes our ascetical life and our spiritual disciplines. Outside of the love of God they lack meaning. They are to be a response of humble gratitude for what God has given to us. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:15:53 Cindy Moran: I have no audio   00:22:06 Anthony: I think I finally get your admonishment to read things in context. He can't be talking about withdrawing from a family like St. Basil's 3 generations living in harmony family life and monastic life.   00:34:10 Rachel: Like the ghetto in Sacramento. lol   00:34:29 B K-LEB: this teaching is too hard............   00:34:35 Erick chastain: moved to texas   00:34:45 Erick chastain: God's country   00:34:45 Daniel Allen: I would add that it starts at home with the family   00:34:53 Bonnie Lewis: Wait a minute.  I   00:35:06 Bonnie Lewis: I'm in Texas   00:35:12 Edward Kleinguetl: Welcome to Texas.  I live in Houston, although moving to Toronto in six weeks.   00:36:04 Daniel Allen: Can’t flee to a place and expect everything to be somehow better. There isn’t a real chance to run to something if you don’t have it with you first. Like St Seraphim of Sarov, acquire the spirit of peace.   00:37:19 Erick chastain: thanks deacon Ed!   00:37:42 Erick chastain: agreed Daniel.   00:38:21 Joseph Caro: I wonder if this fleeing into the desert (in the literal, monkish, sense) is becoming increasingly next to impossible for our current western civilization without first a radical severance from cell phones, internet, Facebook, etc. And I am wondering if even the secondary more modest type of detachment can be fully done without first tempering our use of media, internet, etc.. . I don't know though, just my first impression.   00:38:21 Erick chastain: I moved to Texas to work at a catholic university and live near the daily latin mass.   00:38:59 Anthony: Joseph - so much data DOES impede contemplation.   00:39:20 B K-LEB: i agree with you Joseph the internet is an endless void   00:39:36 Edward Kleinguetl: Amen!   00:39:58 Carol Nypaver: 👍🏻 Erick and Joseph!   00:40:29 Ambrose Little, OP: The internet has so much to foster our knowledge of the faith and to connect with other faith-filled persons (like this group). It's a tool. Have to use it wisely.   00:41:28 Dayton S: 👆   00:42:08 Art: Good for you Erick. Is it Univ of Dallas?   00:43:29 Erick chastain: I moved to Texas to work at a catholic university and live near the daily latin mass. Guarding my mind and heart from secular people. Reduced temptations to anger and worldly ambition.   00:44:58 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: In our community a small group of us are living a more contemplative life.  And it has been a very rocky road.  We are not monastic but are called to live the life of our Blessed Mother in the Cenacle.  We do 3 hours of adoration and one of them is at 12am for priest. And another sacrifice is not eating meat in the convent.  Also doing the full Divine Office.  Only time will tell if God will bring us vocations to live this way of life. To try and live a more contemplative life in todays world is a challenge.   00:46:30 Carol Nypaver: Thank you, Sister Mary.  May your efforts bear much good fruit!   00:47:20 Ambrose Little, OP: I am reminded of Pope St. John Paul II: Be not afraid! Lead out into the deep. (Duc in altum.)   00:48:04 Anthony: Nassim Nicholas Talib, in "The Bed of Procrustes":  Philosophers walk, they do not run.  He is an Orthodox Christian who takes the spirit of Orthodoxy into his academic/risk analysis/economic work.  He's right.  God is not speaking in urgent panic.  Be a "lover of wisdom."  Walk, and enjoy and contemplate.   00:48:22 Ambrose Little, OP: Lead = duc   00:48:37 iPhone: Chapter 5 of the Letter of Diognetus comes to mind…. Christians are not distinguished from other men by country, language, nor by the customs which they observe. They do not inhabit cities of their own, use a particular way of speaking, nor lead a life marked out by any curiosity. The course of conduct they follow has not been devised by the speculation and deliberation of inquisitive men. The do not, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of merely human doctrines.   Instead, they inhabit both Greek and barbarian cities, however things have fallen to each of them. And it is while following the customs of the natives in clothing, food, and the rest of ordinary life that they display to us their wonderful and admittedly striking way of life.   They live in their own countries, but they do so as those who are just passing through. As citizens they participate in everything with others, yet they endure everything as if they were foreigners. Every foreign land is like their homeland to them, and every land…   00:48:42 B K-LEB: he's the one (NNT) i once quoted who said "God provides the cure then he allows the problem"   00:52:11 Ashley Kaschl: Daniel, I love that song! 🔥   00:52:22 Sheila Applegate: Great band.   00:53:12 Daniel Allen: I could listen to that album on repeat haha   01:02:41 Ren: The figure of Abraham is a beautiful fleshing out of what we spoke about a couple of groups ago: that this kind of exile is an exile TO not FROM. The figure of Joseph is one that perhaps illustrates a kind of opposite: an exile from, that God works with in order to effect good - an exile that will, in fact, lead to the slavery of the entire people of God. But Abraham embraces exile for the sake of covenant with God and is thus a far superior example.   01:04:48 Anthony: The book of Jasher has a story that Abraham was one of the few righteous worshippers of God among the people around the Tower of Babel, and God called him away.   01:08:05 Anthony: Christ's exile was also out of love.   01:09:13 Ambrose Little, OP: Gotta run. Family thing. God bless.   01:12:03 B K-LEB: love can be very selfish and manipulative st pope b16 said   01:12:23 Bonnie Lewis: This reminds me of Peter leaving the boat to follow Jesus but his attention was diverted and his faith was weakened, and he began to sink.   01:13:47 Ren: Ooo. So hard   01:16:04 Erick chastain: exile is awesome!   01:16:15 Daniel Allen: Hang in there it only gets more uncomfortable haha   01:16:55 Erick chastain: exile is awesome!   01:17:02 B K-LEB: lol   01:17:37 B K-LEB: i am projecting so much angst on fr. david while reading this, i dont want to hear it@@   01:18:05 Carol Nypaver: How do we not seem indifferent while “letting go?”   01:19:08 Lee Graham: A greater understanding of to what God is calling you   01:21:11 B K-LEB: jesus himself sweats blood   01:21:32 Erick chastain: holy suffering vs worldly suffering   01:21:57 Lee Graham: Count it all joy   01:22:14 Daniel Allen: I don’t mean to sanitize this, and I don’t think this doesn’t that, but I keep returning to letting go of our own will. The monk being called to the desert had to abandon his will for comfort, family, and familiarity. But every day we have to let go of our own will and embrace noisy kids and a lack of silence, or work that doesn’t fulfill a personal sense of gaining in what has meaning, and time for oneself. My examples obviously more align with having a lot of small children, but I think that (to me) is the letting go of the will that the monk is also doing.   01:23:42 Daniel Allen: Sorry writing stream of conscious isn’t something I’m good at haha. Glad you could make sense of that rambling paragraph   01:24:12 Cathy Murphy: That is the joy of children.  You must be in the present moment and only love them   01:26:32 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you Father!!   01:26:37 Iwona Bednarz-Major: Thanks!   01:26:37 Rachel: Thank you Father and everyone   01:26:37 Cindy Moran: Thank you, Father...good night!   01:26:47 Art: Thank you father and stay cool Pittsburgh  

What a Magnificent group this evening on the Evergetinos. We truly began to see the wisdom of the fathers and how in reality they were the first depth psychologists. They knew the workings of the mind in the heart so well. This evening we discussed how it is that one listens to a spiritual elder and what they offer as counsel. How is it that we discern the truth when we find ourselves still struggling with the same sins or sorrow or worry? Is the advice of the elder ineffective or is it because of our own disposition or of our changing dispositions over the course of time. What we find in the section that we looked at this evening is that the fault often lies within ourselves. The human person is a mystery and we struggle with internal contradictions; we can love and hate our sin at the same time. Therefore, we hear the advice of a spiritual elder in many different ways. Sometimes we only hear partial truths. At other times we do not an act on what the elder told us to do. Or quite simply we have lacked faith in God and the power of His Grace. In their “Science of Sciences” the fathers show us how it is that we are to discern and come to know the workings of our heart as well as the action of God‘s Grace. ---   Text of chat during the group:   00:09:41 Eric Williams: I guess you were more of a Soul Train guy, Father ;)   00:11:52 Eric Williams: Exciting!   00:13:00 Eric Williams: Whereas an hour of cheesy hymns feels like an eternity ;)   00:16:58 Tyler Woloshyn: Glory be Forever!   00:26:44 Anthony: Perhaps this story illustrates the peculiar image in Scripture that God hardens hearts, like in Romans Chapter 9?  All things for Christ, but God permits to each person temptations or struggles which could be for our good but makes it appear God hates them?  Especially when we are previously unmerciful?  Or am I off the mark?   00:29:59 Mark Kelly: The ancient Greeks (before XC) said,” Those that the gods wish to bring down (destroy) they first make great.  Perhaps, because of the Incarnation, we can say, “Those that GOD wishes to make great, He first brings them low.” 00:31:27 Tyler Woloshyn: It reminds me of the verse and humbly to bear one another's burdens (Galatians 6:2)   00:32:09 B K-LEB: St therese said "the spirit blows where it wills"   00:32:27 B K-LEB: when asked about why she thinks God chose her..   00:38:11 Rachel Pineda: I do not think I am being to harsh here that the asceticism spoken of here is sometimes taken as superstitious but in fact when one treats it as such  it is a lack of faith in God's Providential care of each and every soul. Also, a lack of patience. Well, the Father just said better than I.   00:39:05 Anthony: St. Padre Pio ~ If you think I make a mistake, do you think God would?  (different context, but the principle fits.)   00:39:48 Rachel Pineda: LOL   00:39:58 Rachel Pineda: No the Desert Father but okay   00:40:15 Rachel Pineda: I am sure you know better than I   00:41:05 Rachel Pineda: What I am speaking about is the radical conversion that takes place. Even to other faithful it can look weird.   00:41:41 B K-LEB: I heard a man who had dealt with sexual abuse at the church say that "you don't have to heal to be holy". I am wondering your thoughts about this. Is healing necessarily and intrinsically related to holiness?   00:45:14 Rachel Pineda: I think Archbishop Fulton Sheen spoke about that in his talks on confession!   00:48:40 B K-LEB: wow thank u   00:49:09 Rachel Pineda: Yes, Thank you!   00:53:02 Anthony: It seems to me that the grief or pain is often one of the mind or imagination, but the center of the soul is confident in God.  The nagging thought is precisely the fog of thought, and the devil wishes it to descend to the nous - but God Who does not abandon the man allows us to conscously unite out thoughts to the  "crown of thorns" of Christ's crucifixion.   00:56:50 Anthony: Fr. Pavel Florovsku, "Iconostasis", opens with a discussion of dreams and time.   00:56:57 Anthony: Florovsky   00:58:49 Rachel Pineda: WOW!!   01:01:02 B K-LEB: Father you should talk more about this topic many are interested   01:17:42 Anthony: Father, this isn't just a religious topic. It involves the philosophical discipline of epistemlogy (the search for certain truth) - and we Americans are so impoverished in philosophical language and concepts   01:19:38 Eric Williams: Data, data everywhere, and not a thought to think   01:21:10 Carol Nypaver: My daughter once asked a co-worker what he thought about a particular topic.  He said, I haven’t thought about that, let me look it up.  😲   01:21:26 Anthony: It's a form of intoxication.   01:23:01 Debra: Off topic: Asking for prayers for all those effected by the flooding in southern Montana, and Yellowstone park Several rivers flooded; roads and bridges gone  Thank you   01:24:17 Tyler Woloshyn: Good night. God bless!   01:24:37 David Fraley: Good night, everyone!   01:24:55 Rachel Pineda: Goodnight!   01:25:04 Rachel Pineda: Thank you Father and everyone!   01:25:15 sue and mark: good night and God Bless  

We continued this week with step number 3 on Exile. Saint John takes us deeper into the mystery of what it is to live as a Christian within the world. God calls to the heart and desires that we give our love to Him as he has given his love to us.  Ultimately this is the reason why the monks exiled themselves to the desert. It was not to free themselves from the company of others. Rather they separated themselves from all things in order to become inseparable from Christ. Similarly, in our day-to-day life, we exile ourselves from all those things which would cool our devotion for the Lord. We are careful not to turn back to the things that we are attached to knowing that in doing so we are likely to be drawn back to the things of the world. This exile is not hatred. It is the desire to let Christ be the one who teaches us what is good for us. We are to let the virtues, the angels and the Saints, the remembrance of death, contrition, be our family and our friends. These are the things that endure and will support us and our journey toward the kingdom. --- Text of chat during the group:  00:28:02 Rachel: Yep   00:30:37 carolnypaver: Page?   00:30:42 Anthony: carpathian plainchant   00:30:45 Ren: 64   00:30:57 carolnypaver: TY   00:32:19 Rachel: I think it is a way of protecting the other as well as one's own heart. It is not just about outright vulgar immodesty. It is about our minding our gaze. Because we long to gaze at the Face of God. To be able, please God, to see as God sees.   00:47:14 Anthony: In section 12, we are dealing with stymied vocations.  In section 11, we were warned against being self-appointed saviors of the world.  Maybe appointing yourself a savior of the world is like dwelling in the dumps on your sin.  The gaze of the person is turned inward on "look at what I can do / look what I did" and that is harmful to the person and to the world.  It is God Who _gives_ the vocation and the salvation.  The goal of Christian life is a genuine blissful loss of the self-awareness as a branch loses itself in the vine?  If he dwells on his fault, he is consumed with canker; if he boasts of himself, he is consumed with worthless woody growth, not fruit.   00:49:14 carolnypaver: “….delivered them up to their doom?” Please explain this part.   00:49:24 Ren: 12   00:51:44 Debra: Just going to the store in June, is indoctrination :/   00:58:17 Rachel: Yes!   00:58:31 Rachel: Go into your room and pray to God in secret..   01:00:31 Robyn Greco: Thank you Father   01:06:40 Anthony: This is why living in Catholic community is so helpful; our surrounding "culture" is directly contrary to each of the family members he raises here to our attention.  Community reinforcement of Catholic themes is important.   01:16:21 Ren: Though Climacus takes things even farther by assigning familial relations even to the virtues, paragraph 15 reminds me of this writing of St. John Kronstadt: "When you are praying alone, and your spirit is dejected, and you are wearied and oppressed by your loneliness, remember then, as always, that God the Trinity looks upon you with eyes brighter than the sun; also all the angels, your own Guardian Angel, and all the Saints of God. Truly they do; for they are all one in God, and where God is, there are they also. Where the sun is, thither also are directed all its rays." No matter what one’s vocation, it seems a kind of loneliness and isolation in this world is always a part of it, for the Christian, and thus so many of the Fathers give advice seeking out the invisible, heavenly community to combat it.   01:19:36 Ashley Kaschl: I think this detachment is harder than believing that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ 😂😬   01:20:06 Ambrose Little, OP: (Sorry, took a while to write, so I got behind the current topic..)   In my Dominican circles, we often talk about evangelization. It is absolutely crucial, I think all of us can agree, but there is remarkable disagreement on the best way to go about it.    Some folks say that simply “speaking the Truth” is the decisive means to win souls. Others say simple accompaniment. Most know intuitively there is some truth in both, but I find folks keen to argue as if one way is, effectively, the only way, while the other won’t work at all—and they can get quite agitated about it. But it’s a matter of emphasis—different folks have different gifts, and more importantly, we need to be sensitive in each and every situation and listen for the Spirit’s guidance.   01:20:10 Ambrose Little, OP: Folks of “action” pay that lip service, but when pressed, they seem to think we can’t “just” do that. It can’t be “that simple”; they get antsy. Prayer just “isn’t enough.” But I return to the Old Testament—Israel often being a superb type of the individual faith journey. *Every time* Israel (and/or some leader) tried to go on their own, doing what seemed right and wise to them—even with good intentions, it failed, sometimes spectacularly.    I see what seems to be _so much_ damage done in the Church and _to our Christian witness_ by folks who just can’t not “let their light shine,” though it seems to me it’s more of that spectacular failing, because they don’t wait on the Spirit. If they did, then we’d see the fruit of the Spirit made manifest. But more often than not, we don’t.    Waiting on the Lord in prayer, being silent, living in that “exile,” increasingly seems to me to be the Way. Let action, if it is needed, come from that.   01:20:50 Rachel: That is why I put my hand down all the time! I am so behind. :)   01:21:58 Rachel: That is so true.   01:24:36 Eric Williams: Some people embracing brutal honesty are more interested in the brutality than the honesty. That's why my spider sense tingles and I get anxious when some people pontificate about boldly and loudly proclaiming the Faith to secular society. I think a lot more of us should embrace silent and hidden holiness than should attempt evangelization or apologetics.   01:24:56 Eric Williams: (Sorry. Got behind trying to type on my phone.)   01:25:37 Ambrose Little, OP: Much more concise than me, Eric! 🙂   01:25:40 Cindy Moran: Thank you, Father!   01:25:45 Ryan Schaefer: Thank you!   01:25:47 Rachel: Thank you Father!   01:25:49 kevin: thank you!!!!   01:26:02 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you Father!   01:26:26 Rachel: 6 am here   01:26:31 Cathy: Prayers   01:26:34 Rachel: 🙏🏼   01:26:39 Eric Williams: It's not often I'm called concise, Ambrose ;)   01:26:39 carolnypaver: We will, Father. God bless you in your transition.   01:26:46 Sheila Applegate: prayers!   01:27:55 Art: Thank you Father!  

Tonight we picked up with Hypothesis 21. One is not to reveal the thoughts of the heart and the mind or one’s temptations to others indiscriminately. Rather, we are to seek out those who have the gift of discernment and experiential knowledge. Only those who are engaged in spiritual warfare, who know their own minds and hearts well can speak to the struggles of others. Much damage can be and has been done by those who set themselves up as teachers of the faith and the spiritual life and yet not living it themselves in any measure. What we are to look for in an elder are the particular gifts of the Spirit that arise from living the gospel fully; humility, repentance, obedience, tenderness gentleness, charity, mercy.  In order for one struggling with their sins and the shame that often accompanies them to find courage to acknowledge them, they need an elder who speaks to them with love; a love that reflects Christ himself. How can we speak of what we do not know? We cannot teach the faith or guide others from a position of power but rather imitate Christ in approaching others in a humble and selfless fashion.   Text of chat during the group:    00:07:57 FrDavid Abernethy: Public   Prayer of St. John Chrysostom before reading spiritual texts.     O Lord Jesus Christ, open Thou the eyes of my heart, that I may hear Thy word and understand and do Thy will, for I am a sojourner upon the earth. Hide not Thy commandments from me, but open mine eyes, that I may perceive the wonders of Thy law. Speak unto me the hidden and secret things of Thy wisdom. On Thee do I set my hope, O my God, that Thou shalt enlighten my mind and understanding with the light of Thy knowledge, not only to cherish those things which are written, but to do them, that in reading the lives and sayings of the Saints I may not sin, but that such may serve for my restoration, enlightenment and sanctification, for the salvation of my soul, and the inheritance of life everlasting; For Thou art the enlightenment of those who lie in darkness, and from Thee cometh every good deed and every gift. Amen.   00:11:04 FrDavid Abernethy: page 170   00:16:56 Tyler Woloshyn: Glory be to Jesus Christ! Good evening everyone.   00:27:02 David Robles: According to the Philokalia the stages of sin/temptation are   00:34:29 Anthony: How do these stages of sin correlate to the Roman distinctions between Imperfections, Venial sins and Mortal Sins?  Or is that too big a topic or a harmful focus on what is evil within us instead of focus on what is good, noble, etc?   00:34:41 Wayne: page?   00:43:25 Josie: "preach and if you have to, speak"   00:56:58 Josie: is there a difference between the evil one hearing the confession of our thoughts in private vs in public? can't he hear them in both cases?   00:57:07 Josie: sorry sent by accident   00:59:28 Anthony: The protection of the mind is maybe the really important problem with social media - as one mindlessly absorbs, one tunes into so many different minds putting themselves out for consumption; it's more indiscriminate than TV since you can get so many channels one right after the other.   01:07:55 Tyler Woloshyn: Some priests are not psychologists nor should pretend to be in the confessional   01:08:23 sue and mark: yup   01:14:26 Josie: so does a confession with a bad priest still give us grace?   01:18:16 Ambrose Little, OP: Yes, if he's ordained and pronounces absolution. Personal qualities don't impede the sacramental grace.   01:28:31 carolnypaver: My question is from section C. What about sharing what we learned in Spiritual direction with one’s spouse, especially concerning children?   01:29:17 carolnypaver: Thank you!   01:29:28 Josie: 1 sec   01:29:31 Josie: typing   01:29:46 Josie: in AA they teach you to tell your story   01:29:51 Josie: to help others heal   01:30:00 Josie: my priest says that's good   01:30:03 Josie: yes   01:34:12 Josie: thank you father!!!!