Philokalia Ministries

We began this evening with Step 3 “On Exile.”The connotation of the word, as we discussed, can lead one to think of punishment or being removed from the things that are needed or loved. However, as we make our way through the step we begin to see that exile is a path to freedom. It is a gradual turning away or separating oneself from the world in order that one might become inseparable from God. At the heart of exile is a deep desire for God; the longing of the heart that leads one to run toward Him as the source of life. The more we begin to see this truth the clearer it becomes to us that we cling to things with a sense of needing them for meaning or purpose. Exile is so important because it removes that illusion. It shows us that so many things that we have had in our lives hold no lasting promise within them. God is to be the beginning and end of all things for us; and exile gives birth to the kind of detachment that allows us to be ever so confident in what He alone can provide. --- Text of chat during the group:  00:14:06 FrDavid Abernethy: page 63, para. #2   00:14:22 David Robles: Dear Father David, Thank you for inviting me to the meeting today. What step and section?   00:14:58 FrDavid Abernethy: page 63 par 2   00:15:02 FrDavid Abernethy: On exile   00:15:21 Robyn Greco: hi , Hope everyone is well   00:15:23 Sheila Applegate: This time the link said it was a malicious link.   00:15:37 Sheila Applegate: But the zoom one works.   00:16:12 Anthony: Do you spray with Copper Sulfate, Vicki?   00:16:14 David Robles: I'm not using your edition. I have the Holy Transfiguration Monastery Edition.   00:16:30 FrDavid Abernethy: Thats the edition we use   00:16:33 FrDavid Abernethy: 2012   00:17:28 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: Greetings too!   00:18:07 Joseph Caro: fr   00:18:13 David Robles: Mine is 1991. Second edition   00:18:16 Fr. Miron Kerul-Kmec Jr.: I don’t like being a boss! Haha   00:18:45 Joseph Caro: I have been meaning to thank you for the little book you sent awhile ago, but I keep forgetting!  thank you!   00:19:24 David Robles: Step 4 Obedience starts on page 20.   00:23:43 David Robles: Oh I see Exile. Found it   00:31:27 David Robles: Father, would you agree that the intensity and character of the exile for a lay person, a cenobitic monk or a hermit are different levels? Is there an interior exile that is the same for all?   00:32:29 David Robles: St Isaac the Syrian is pretty radical on this, as it is required of a hermit   00:36:04 Anthony: This keeping the "mind" inseparable from God, is he referring to cogitation, a constant stream of thought, or something else?  Is "mind" more like "nous" or heart or merely presence here?  I'm thinking it's not cogitation, since that can be exhausting and since the Fathers remind us our imaginations can willingly and unwillingly be the playground of evil.   00:39:25 David Robles: Dianoia is rational discourse   00:39:32 Sam Rodriguez: St Paul often talks about Sin and Death as Dominions. Where there is a Dominion of Sin, a Dominion of Death. Or, in other words, that we are born into a Lordship of Sin, a Lordship of Death, by virtue of Original Sin. And thus, to be "Delivered" as a Christian, represents being transferred from one Kingdom to another. To be transferred to the Kingdom where Jesus is Lord. And Has Dominion over our lives. Where our lives no longer belong to ourselves. Our bodies no longer belong to ourselves. They have been ransomed at a price. And thus, I'm wondering if this language of Exile is a restatement of a Deliverance process. Where its not that those things in our lives are bad, but that they require His Lordship in order for the Goodness of those Created things to be Received and Revealed and Shared. Being intentional about how we use our time. Or our phones. Or approach our relationships. That we are actively inviting Him to continually Conquer our attraction to those things, Exercise His Dominion over them.   00:45:35 Bridget McGinley: I recently came across the book The Way of a Pilgrim. I am memorized by his desire for separating himself from the active world to desperately seek the concept of unceasing prayer yet he does not enter a monastery and wanders the earth mixing with others. Unceasing prayer is a commandment from God, correct? This concept of exile seems unloving to the Eastern societies especially in our country where human contact is considered charitable. When we want to separate even from family and friends because they distract us we are sometimes accused of lacking "charity" but it is well understood in the Orthodox cultures that this is a great gift. I relate to what Robyn just said.   00:49:34 Joseph Caro: the idea of exile (separation) to keep us inseparable to God reminds me of marriage , where one keeps themselves from others in order to be in union with ones spouse.   00:52:27 Sam Rodriguez: Regarding what Father shared earlier, saying that we should perhaps genuflect before a newly-Baptized baby.... there's a beautiful story of St Louis IX, the French King. After one of his babies was Baptized, the Saint is reported to have joyfully picked up his baby and gave the baby a kiss, right where the baby's heart was, and exclaimed "Hello, Jesus!"   01:01:49 Ren: There is an interesting reversal at play here. Normally, when we say someone is exiled, it is exile from something/some place - a banishment from the good, the community, the kingdom - and the place of exile does not matter at all. Here, however, exile is an action taken for the sake of something, and the place of exile - that place in which the soul remains unseparated from  God - is the only thing that matters.   01:04:42 Ren: Much the same kind of reversal that turns the barren desert into a place of encounter with Life itself!   01:06:18 Erick chastain: how does exile give place to the demon of sensuality?   01:15:09 Ashley Kaschl: Exile being the mother of detachment makes a lot of sense. While we’ve been talking about exile in a way that it leads to greater intimacy with God, a direct confrontation with the passions, and a renunciation of the world, I learned it the other way around: that, almost by proxy, a choosing of Christ over everything else in the day-to-day life, moment by moment, leads one to be exile by default. Is this the thought of the West, that one winds up in exile through intimacy with Christ, while the East encourages exile to find that intimacy with Christ?   01:18:29 Rachel: YES!! Fantastic points!   01:19:31 Rachel: 🙃 wow   01:20:03 Ashley Kaschl: Great. Thank you, Father!   01:22:47 Anthony: Slavonic. ;)   01:24:08 Ren: Hi baby Orlandi!  

We continued in our reading of the Evergetinos hypothesis 20 on the importance of revealing one’s thoughts to an elder. The struggle in the spiritual life entails letting go of embarrassment and shame that often plague us - in order that we might freely acknowledge our sins or the thoughts that lead to them. The revelation of these thoughts must be received by elders with the greatest care and tenderness. It is both the perseverance of the one struggling and the patience of the caregiver, the elder, that brings healing. Over and over again we are presented with stories of those who overcome their fear of shame and in their freedom to acknowledge their sin come to experience freedom from the sin itself. Therefore, the fathers hold up before us humility, truthful living; bringing all that is within the mind and heart into the light of Christ. --- Text of chat during the group:  00:15:01 FrDavid Abernethy: page 165 number 3   00:37:30 Daniel Allen: What page are we on?   00:37:45 Ambrose Little, OP: 167   00:37:53 Daniel Allen: Thank you   00:42:38 Ambrose Little, OP: Seems like it's less a question of whether this or that father is particularly learned, but that God wants us to seek the guidance of others as an expression of humility and so, through that, will guide us. We may or may not get a "wise" answer, but the actual experience of that humility is in itself instructive and the Spirit will teach us through that.   00:55:10 Ambrose Little, OP: accompaniment 😄   01:11:19 Ambrose Little, OP: it says he “mentioned casually, and with no desire for correction”   01:12:08 Ren: Yea, it does say “mentioned casually, and with no desire for correction,” and that he had no “commitment, or agony of soul,” so I think the ways in which the brothers approach the elder are radically different. Not just a difference of physical tears.   01:12:33 Ren: Ditto Ambrose   01:14:03 Rachel: To me, tears of this sort seems to be a source of scandal for some in the west. Where they are questioned and looked upon as hysterics or a lack of humility, or lack of trust in God;s mercy, and absence of the peace of the Holy Spirit. I don't actually believe there is a problem with the theology of holy repentance in the west, but that it is a misinterpretation of the different manifestations of true repentance in the spiritual life. It is an idea of what repentance must look like. And right now, that seems to be a knee jerk stoic reaction to the nihilist culture we find ourselves surrounded by. The focus by some faithful on keeping it together in a stoic like manner can even encourage and foster an irreverent confession at best because if one is caught crying then, it may be viewed with suspicion.  I do not mean to criticize but only mean to point out the perception I have encountered ( even in myself) that one must have this stoned faced spiritual life coupled with an alloyed joy we pray against.   01:15:35 Rachel: It makes me wonder, when one realizes, as God reveals Hiimself, to one;s own capacity, that they are a child of God, one would not be able to help but have copious tears of repentance.   01:16:58 Ambrose Little, OP: For a long time I was puzzled by the great saints who would belabor their sinfulness, even with many tears. It sorta came across to me as somehow over the top, maybe too much ("extra” as we say these days). But I think what it is is their greater understanding of the perfect love and goodness of God, the good things God wants to bestow upon us, and how even our lesser imperfections cause us to lose out on the fullness of what God wishes to bless us with.   01:18:10 Eric Williams: I suspect that tears of repentance would be regarded as foreign to a sense of "romanitas".   01:18:39 Rachel: Well, when in Rome. Sigh   01:20:13 Eric Williams: I don't say that approvingly. ;)   01:22:21 Rachel: I just want to point out that when one is truly striving, by the grace of God, even and especially tears are brought before the Lord. I mean to say that one doesn't relish in crocodile tears when one truly desires to please God.   01:23:12 Ed Havrilla Jr.: The woman who wept at the feet of Jesus, washing his feet, was forgiven and freed of her sin.   01:25:01 Miron Kerul Kmec: Thank you!   01:25:01 Rachel: Thank you father and everyone.   01:25:17 Rachel: Yay!   01:25:18 Maple(Hannah) Hong: Thank you!  

Superb group tonight!  Thank you all so much for the wonderful comments and questions on two very challenging steps. Synopsis: We continued this evening reading Step 2 on Detachment and  the beginning of Step 3 on Exile. Saint John makes it very clear to us that detachment from the things of this world and seeing ourselves as living in exile are rooted not in a hatred of the world or of others but rather in our desire for the perfect love of Christ.  Our passions draw us back again and again to the sickness of our sin. Even when we have left many things behind we can feel a very tangible pull back to them. Therefore, St. John tells us that we must embrace Christ with an unconditional and absolute love and devotion; as He has given his love unconditionally and without limit.  All things begin and end with love. Our asceticism, all of our disciplines, must be rooted in this love otherwise we will find ourselves isolated from others and from God. Even the monks who embraced the deepest solitude of the desert understood that they did so as part of the body of Christ; that the embrace of deep solitude and silence brought them to a greater intimacy with every other person and allowed them to see the action of God within the world and creation.  The break from the world of which these first three steps speak is meant to allow us to run freely and swiftly toward Christ, our Beloved. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:11:31 Sharon: When I tried to log into the link at the top of the email, it wouldn’t log in saying that you were in session with Evergetinos. The link at the bottom did work, obviously!   00:12:01 Sharon: Obviously because I’m here! That wasn’t meant to be snarky!   00:14:06 Rachel: me too. PC   00:14:29 Bonnie Lewis: I always have to use the bottom link.  No biggie   00:14:29 Sheila Applegate: mine did not work. android phone.   00:14:33 Debra: Sharon, I got a warning saying the top link was a Threat! Ooooo So I logged in with the bottom link too   00:14:36 Sheila Applegate: said unavailable.   00:21:01 Debra: Our Diocese 'moved' the Ascension to Sunday ::eyeroll::   00:21:23 Ashley Kaschl: Same   00:32:36 Sam Rodriguez: I'm reminded here of a quote by then Cardinal Wojtyla: "Freedom is the means, Love is the end." Our culture often confuses our understanding of Freedom by defining it as "freedom to" (do this or that) as opposed to "Freedom from" (Sin and our appetites, etc). And that we lose sight of the fact that our Freedom is brought to Perfection in Love. And that is it's very purpose. The Saints in Heaven still retain their Freedom. They have Freely chosen Love for all Eternity. And therein lies the relationship between this detachment, this Freedom of Heart, and our Call to Love. It seems to me that one could think of Freedom as *the medium* through which Love travels, just as a wave may travel through a medium. If we seek to grow in Love, it seems that, what's needed, is more to clear the way for Love to Move Within us and Through us, precisely by seeking this Freedom of Heart   00:33:50 Josie: wow   00:34:00 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: double wow!   00:36:24 Debra: Who's going to follow ^^that^^   00:39:44 Anthony: If this life is not for all, but for a comparative few, why is the monastic life presented as "if you want to obey Christ, completely detach and be a monastic?"   00:44:34 Josie: Is it possible that the solitude can lead to a kind of self centeredness perhaps in some kind of people? I understand that the focus on love is the thing that keeps a person safe from the danger, but what is love in this spiritual sense, with very little concrete manifestations (like others to serve or even to forgive) ? Is love in this case a focus on God? Contemplation?   00:44:45 Josie: sorry I hit send by accident   00:51:17 Josie: but it's also not simply a focus on self and becoming  "perfect", right?   00:57:10 Anthony: garlic, leeks   00:57:15 Ren: Cucumbers!   01:08:51 Sam Rodriguez: Regarding this, something I've found helpful to try to be grounded in is this: If it's good, God gets the credit.  I can only take credit for my mistakes. lol   01:15:40 Anthony: Maybe some of the self will and desire to propose oneself as great in an area is a symptom of a demonic attack on a person's worth - a subtle and constant message "you are worthless.   01:21:09 Ashley Kaschl: If this isn’t very coherent....I’m sorry. 😂   01:21:12 Ashley Kaschl: This reminds me of something in “Imitation of Christ” by Thomas á Kempis. That when we suffer, we should remember that we are “on probation” and that we shouldn’t rely on or place our hope in the world, nor seek to justify ourselves to the world who won’t always understand. I think that Catholics, who are on fire for the Lord or who are firmly in their vocations, run up against the temptation to not be misunderstood by the world, to not offend when teaching the Truth. It’s as if the temptation of vain glory today tries to be popular and holy, which is antithetical to the spiritual life.    Anyway, the rest of the quote goes: “It is good for us sometimes to suffer contradiction, to be misjudged by men even though we do well and mean well. These things help us to be humble and shield us from vainglory. When to all outward appearances men give us no credit, when they do not think well of us, then we are more inclined to seek God Who sees our hearts. Therefore, a man ought to root himself so firmly in God that he   01:21:43 Ashley Kaschl: will not need the consolations of men.”   01:22:56 Sam Rodriguez: GREAT points, Ashley   01:26:10 Ambrose Little, OP: There is a flip side of that, too, and I think we have to be careful both ways. We can enjoy being counter-cultural and want to in a sense stick it to the “world” to show just how different we are. In that way, we are risking a kind of pride that we're better and want to show it off by being combative unnecessarily.   01:26:51 Ashley Kaschl: Yes 💯 👆   01:28:10 Rachel: lol   01:29:35 Rachel: Thank you!   01:29:48 Anthony: cookie   01:29:53 Ashley Kaschl: Thank you, Father! Good to see you!   01:30:19 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father...great session!   01:30:20 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you Father David. Happy to have class tonight! 01:30:21 Debra: I'm on Brave, with Avast...and Avast thinks the shortl ink is a threat   01:30:23 Cathy: Thank you Father! Prayers   01:30:33 sue and mark: good night and be blessed  

Thanks to everyone who participated in tonight's group on The Evergetinos.  As always it is a privilege and joy to sit at the feet of the Fathers with you. Synopsis: We continue our reading this evening of Hypothesis 20 on the revealing of one’s thoughts to an elders. Again and again we are taught by the Fathers that this is the path to true healing for us. It is when we keep our thoughts secret, when we hide them, when we lie about them, that the devil gains a greater foothold in our lives. We are warned that God is not mocked for he sees all things and into the depths of the heart. So we are to never lie. In humility, we are to seek forgiveness and to acknowledge our thoughts, our temptations, any concerns, our desires, or even simple thoughts to our elders. When we do this our heart is also open to the Grace and action of God. The moment that we acknowledge the truth is the moment a flood of Grace comes upon us.  It is then that the demon is cast out. St Paul tells us: "Take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ." It is our good fortune to have the Fathers to show us the path by which we can do this. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:12:23 FrDavid Abernethy: The Evergetinos   00:12:47 FrDavid Abernethy: Center for Traditional Orthodox Studies   00:14:18 Fr. Miron Jr.: yes we are   00:14:28 Fr. Miron Jr.: she is tired of me   00:14:49 FrDavid Abernethy: page 163   00:15:05 FrDavid Abernethy: Letter D   00:16:14 Debra: Do we need to re-sign up?   00:16:37 Josie: are we allowed to send father questions outside the group?   00:16:48 FrDavid Abernethy: yes   00:16:49 Ren: Philokalia.link/evergetinos_signup   00:17:02 Ren: Philokalia.link/climacus_signup   00:17:22 Josie: how do we reach you father? which email?   00:17:24 Ren: philokaliaministries@gmail.com   00:17:40 FrDavid Abernethy: dabernethy@gmail.com   00:18:13 Sarah Kerul-Kmec: hahaha   00:24:17 Debra: {Not raising my hand...I was shooing my dog away}   00:37:33 joannedavids: This is enlightening.  Very helpful.  Thank you, Fr.   00:44:31 Josie: were the fathers able to distinguish between evil thoughts that came from the evil one and those that came from their own thoughts and hearts? if so how?   00:45:12 Ambrose Little: This was before mass marketing. LOL 😄   00:46:54 Josie: thank you   00:53:12 Ren: The thought presented in the second to last sentence - that telling (thoughts) is equal to rejecting - is really fascinating. Also interesting to think about when they are what you might consider “good thoughts.” By sharing them with the Abba you are showing a willingness to submit all - the good and the bad - to the wisdom of an elder. To reject all for the sake of humility, of truth, and obedience. Sometimes even thoughts that seem very good might not be good for you at the time, or might not actually be good at all.   00:54:35 Josie: it's kiind of beautiful that God made it so that our salvation in interlinked with others in so many ways...   01:11:10 joannedavids: “Can’t see the forest for the trees.”   01:20:22 Ren: Links for the groups:   01:20:24 Ren: Philokalia.link/evergetinos_signup
Philokalia.link/climacus_signup   01:20:43 Ren: Business email: philokaliaministries@gmail.com   01:20:44 Fr. Miron Jr.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNMONMxs61g&t=3467s Fr. Davids Homily 29min  

Text of chat during the group:  00:28:07 Josie: Does the first monk who said that he wanted to trust in God in the solitude of the desert demonstrate to us that God won't save someone who is alone or that this isn't the way that we approach the idea of complete trust in God? The context of my question being the mantra that we should trust only and fully in God and only he can help us.   00:29:51 Josie: So being completely alone isn't a sort of extra trust in God?   00:33:14 Anthony: Even in a non-monastic setting, being alone, outside of accountability to family and community, opens the mind to lots of thoughts or evil suggestions.  And a person can be alone in this sense either literally solitary or in a crowd like a college.  People can be severely tried when solitary in these senses.  There's something in Ecclesiastes that Father quotes, about walking alone, when you fall, who can help?  When you are with others they are even a preventative to falling.   00:33:36 Anthony: other people are encouragement to the heart.   00:45:18 Josie: is it weird to reveal our thoughts rather than actions and sins in the confessional?   00:45:33 Anthony: On a theological or social-theological note, this destructive sense of obedience - as I understand it, comes from Jansenism.  A Catholic Calvinism...and Calvinism focused for some reason on God's election, no place for a free love, it seems to me.   00:48:21 Ren: It is so powerful to compare the image of one who commands obedience put forward by Christ - a shepherd whose voice is followed, who carries those who are not strong enough to walk; one who stands in the midst of their followers as one who serves - to what you put forward just now - a hammer who drives others into a exact place by sheer force. Wow. Really amazing to reflect on.   00:53:45 Forrest Cavalier: μεγάλε   00:56:45 Ren: Satan - the relentless bartender :-D   00:57:42 Tyler Woloshyn: Reminds of the classic cartoon villain who keeps getting foiled by the virtuous protagonist.   01:04:29 Ren: I love this story so much. One of my favorites in the book so far.   01:04:40 Josie: me too   01:04:45 Ashley Kaschl: Same. It’s so good.   01:06:00 Josie: father does fasting help with the psychological temptations or only physical temptations of the body? hope this q makes sense   01:09:40 Tyler Woloshyn: We know that these texts were written in a different technological era.  Fasting seems to become more of a battle today for lay, clergy, and monastic alike given technology.  Temptations and challenges to fasts can be magnified even more now then they were in the age of the Fathers.  The devil does not need to walk down the road here, he can be at the tip of one's fingers with screen time.   01:10:37 Josie: someone said on Twitter "the Lord gives the solution then he allows the problem"   01:12:11 Josie: he was quoting a Rabbi i think, and was talking about the internet   01:12:46 Anthony: I think what matters is what flask you drink from - or don't.  Since 2018, the Catholic news has been consumed with obkective wrongs, which exist, but can become consumptive: 2018-2019: sex scandal. 2019, Pachademon in Vatican. 2020-2022, election , Great Reset and covid.  2022, Ukraine.  The imbalance and fixation is real but can be a poison to imbibe and gets in the way of classic spiritual food and drink.  But maybe we can turn this to our good   01:14:26 Anthony: and being one oriented to fixing social problems, this negative world tone affected my spiritual life.   01:17:06 Rachel: lol   01:17:55 keynote: Thank you Fr.!!   01:18:02 Josie: thank you father   01:18:07 Rachel: Thank you!   01:18:15 Tyler Woloshyn: Good night and God bless!   01:18:21 Sheila Applegate: Thank you!  

One of the participants in tonight‘s group on the "Ladder of Divine Ascent" described St. John’s teaching on Detachment as a “mic drop moment.”  The psychological insight and the understanding of the fickleness of the human mind and the wiles of the ego are presented to us in such an unvarnished fashion that there is no denying the truth of them.   Yet – there is something in this that is incredibly uplifting to the human heart. The truth though difficult to hear and even more difficult to embrace is liberating and offers freedom. To have a first taste of this in these paragraphs on Detachment is something wonderful. We begin to see that the monks were leaving behind everything within the world not because they hated the world or hated others; but because they were drawn there by He who is infinite and absolute Love. Within the human heart is an urgent longing for what God alone can offer. In Him we come to see the meaning of our own lives and who we are. We step into Reality. And even though this may be very difficult and even though we may want to avoid it more often than not, if we allow ourselves to be drawn by the Lord, allow Him to take us by the hand and lead us into the truth of His Life and the reality of His Love -  what an indescribable joy comes over the mind and heart. --- Text of chat during the group:  00:02:28 Lita's iPhone: Happy to be joining you all! I’m nursing my newborn so I’ll be without video 😊   00:02:37 FrDavid Abernethy, CO: welcome!   00:03:04 Ashley Kaschl: LITA! 🙌🏻   00:05:26 Robyn Greco: hi Father, Hi everyone   00:08:34 Carol Nypaver: May the fourth be with you!   00:25:49 Joseph Caro: The nuns in the movie Sister Act might have profited from a reading of Climacus!   00:30:20 Ren: I am particularly moved by the insight at the end of the last paragraph, which states that we can be tempted to disparage those in the world in order to avoid despair. Fascinating that, not possessing the faith and love necessary to find value in our life in Christ, we can turn to disparagement of others in an attempt to build ourselves up. I feel this happens a lot in our day.   00:33:58 Josie: so this is why the "why" behind detachment is so important..   00:35:11 Sam Rodriguez: Some phrases here that come to mind are "I must decrease so that Jesus may increase." Or that "It is not I who live but Christ who lives within me." That we are emptying ourselves of self, yes, but we are emptying ourselves unto the Fullness of Him. And thus, if He Within us, while Living Through us, Calls us out into the world for a Mission, then that's radically different from the Enemy shaming us for not following Him the way the Enemy says that we should, during an attack. Because, if rightfully lived, it is He Who Is Stepping into the world, through our Yes to Him. Our Yes to Him Continuing His Incarnation Through our Yes, even if it will inevitably be within the context of our own personal brokenness. Could be in the Desert. Or the "Desert" of the city. Or in the concrete realities of a Present Moment, where there is a Call to Radical Love, whatever that Moment, that Call might look like. It belongs to Him, not us. Just as *we* belong to Him, not ourselves.   00:46:23 Robyn Greco: ouch   00:49:40 Debra: What?! You mean monastic life isn't all incense and Gregorian chant...gardening, and making coffee, and beer?   00:49:53 Ashley Kaschl: 😂😂   00:50:50 Robyn Greco: wow...6 is what those of us today would call a mic drop moment. no beating around the bush and ever so true   00:54:44 Carol: can't help comparing this to the adoration and attention an expectant mother receives vs. the relentless hidden self-sacrifice of new parenthood   01:03:09 Lilly: One should be very mindful of their inner struggles and not enter monastic life to ‘escape’   01:04:26 Anthony: "Monastic" and "curmudgeon" are two distinct and different modes of life.   01:10:39 Robyn Greco: lol   01:11:30 Robyn Greco: You Father? a curmudgeon? I don't believe it.....🤣   01:11:42 Debra: 😆   01:12:26 Erick chastain: honestly I seem curmudgeonly when everyone around me is saying obscene things and I have to tell them that they are doing wrong.   01:13:07 Robyn Greco: I have to go, dog needs her insulin shot. Thank you Father, see you all next week   01:14:37 Lita's iPhone: Thank you!   01:14:44 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father!!   01:15:05 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you Father!!   01:15:06 Josie: thank you  

The wisdom of the Fathers and the essential and fundamental elements of the spiritual life that they present us with is valuable beyond expression. Whether novices in the spiritual life or having struggled for many years, one is given a precious gift in reading the Evergetinos! Synopsis:  We picked up once again this evening with Hypothesis 20 on heeding the advice of the elders and the importance of revealing one’s thoughts without embarrassment or shame. How beautiful it is when an elder has such compassion and love (as well as patience) to help those in his charge to set before God all of their thoughts and sins. What a blessing it is when you have one who is willing to wait even years, assisting you in the spiritual life, helping you to trust ever more fully in the power of grace and in the depths of God’s mercy. The Evil One seeks to do nothing but undermine this trust in God and in one’s elder. Even when we are tortured by our sins or our thoughts and temptations we often remain silent; because the evil one convinces us how shameful such thoughts might be. The closer we get to speaking them the more he seeks to make us question the value of doing so. The father’s counsel on this is incredibly valuable. It reveals to us the wisdom of God and how it overcomes the cunning of the Evil One. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:18:25 Josie: When we have thoughts that we don't identify with the “inner self” or “inner man” but rather as false self, are we meant to 1) engage them in order to dismantle them at the root and deal with what part of us causes or wants to believe them, OR alternatively 2) do we simply ignore them/reject them as false and just re-center ourselves?   00:21:25 Tyler Woloshyn: This brings to mind the Psalmist when he speaks about in Psalm 136 (LXX) to deal with those sins, passions, vices by dashing them against the rock. To dash them against the Rock of Christ early on rather than much later.   00:23:27 Tyler Woloshyn: (I know it is a controversial psalm, but blessed are the monastics for explaining the meaning behind that psalm.)   00:34:15 Tyler Woloshyn: This story is very interesting when someone is held by passions, but how can one relate to those to struggle with scrupulosity in their confession?   00:45:04 Josie: it's ok you answered thank u   00:49:17 iPad (10)maureen: Is it much like Doctor ? You can have a cancer and not Know it.   00:49:49 iPad (10)maureen: The earlier one find a hidden illness you can recover.   00:52:55 Rachel: I can top that but in my humility will refrain   00:56:09 Anthony: These elders - are they experienced, mature Christians, or is Elder in these stories here the equivalent or presbyteros or sacerdotale - a priest?   00:57:01 Forrest Cavalier: The greek is Ό Γέρων   00:57:13 Forrest Cavalier: The old/wise one.   00:57:17 Anthony: Thanks, Forrest   00:57:18 Ambrose Little, OP: That’s Greek to me.   00:57:19 Anthony: James   00:58:56 Anthony: Liberty University in the early 200's encouraged accountability partners and each dormitory hall had a supposedly mature student to be a spiritual leader   00:59:04 Anthony: 2000s   01:01:06 Rachel: I bought that book but have not read it!   01:01:29 iPad (10)maureen: Name of the book ?   01:01:29 Josie: me 2   01:01:41 Ren: A question about confession: In a situation where a certain sin has really taken root, and one finds it difficult even to resolve to try and amend one’s behavior,  perhaps even resistant to change, what recourse does one have? The thought comes to my mind that is is sacrilegious to go to confession not hoping or firmly intending to change, but it you can’t go to confession, what can you do? Are you just a lost cause?   01:02:49 Debra: Wouldn't going to confession provide the graces to help make that change?   01:04:10 Lilly: Orthodox Psychotherapy -author?   01:04:36 Anthony: Ren, I think Nietzsche actually has an important thing to say here - exert the will - not to power, but for our good. ;)   01:04:51 Sawyer: Confessing that lack of desire to change can sometimes bring great grace in itself.   01:07:14 Anthony: Lilly: https://store.ancientfaith.com/orthodox-psychotherapy   01:07:29 Lilly: Thank you   01:08:50 Forrest Cavalier: Psalm 22   01:09:05 Forrest Cavalier: My God why have you abandoned me   01:10:30 Anthony: Well FOrrest threw it out in a Cavalier manner. ;^)   01:11:10 Josie: seems God is always several steps ahead of us and there is always some level of darkness in the spiritual ;ife i think..   01:13:50 Ambrose Little, OP: Glad you became yourself again.  

In our reading of the Evergetinos, we picked up with Hypothesis 20 “On Obedience and Listening to the Advice of Elders.”  We are presented with the story of one monk, Iakovos, who was filled with impertinence and sought to place himself above others as a spiritual guide; this despite his lacking the fruit or obedience in his own life. The darkness and the trials of this monk grow deeper and deeper. The more resistant that he is to the guidance of others the more that the spirit of darkness takes hold of him. Then, in his moment of greatest weakness, the Enemy attacks him in such a way that he is overcome with a flood sinful thoughts. Taking matters into his own hands, rather than humbling himself before his Elder or before God, he mutilates himself. It is only the meekness and the compassion of the Elder that aids this monk in his darkness. Saint Savvas was able to apply a healing balm on every occasion of disobedience. Over and over again he applies the necessary remedy and offers intercession on behalf of his spiritual child.  The vivid imagery in this Hypothesis is meant to draw us into a deeper and more rich understanding of obedience and its importance for the spiritual life. Our willfulness can run so deep that we find ourselves wrapped in delusion. Left to ourselves we are capable of the worst. We can betray ourselves as well as God. May God in His mercy guide us along the path of repentance and give us the grace and healing of obedience. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:04:55 Mark: Some snow later tonight in MN   00:08:33 Lilly: Hello Fr. Blessed to be back! Happy Easter everyone!   00:17:31 Tyler Woloshyn: This kind of reminds me of the career centric mentality that Pope Francis have warned clergy against. Clergy trying to obtain monsignor or mitred archpriest status.   00:35:44 Anthony: When you take aptitude tests, clergy is considered just another job for people who like to help people. But a religious vocation is different than a career.   00:41:14 Forrest Cavalier: He cried out to his neighbors too late.   00:42:20 Ren: Is Iakovos’ failure to reveal the thoughts to an elder, and his extreme action, another manifestation of arrogance?   00:43:54 Tyler Woloshyn: It seems very relevant as it shows what happens in those instances where people who say need accountability partners if you will do not have the courage to admit their weakness and seek help.   00:45:06 Josie: For our own days, is it advisable to admit these kinds of things in the confessional? (Even if sometimes this isn't exactly a confession of a sin but thoughts/temptations)   00:45:13 Anthony: Is the finalty of the mutilation the problem?  Other saints ran into thickets to hurt their bodies, and they are saints.   00:45:42 Forrest Cavalier: You quoted St. Philip Neri in the past: "In the warfare of the flesh, only cowards gain the victory; that is to say, those who fly."   00:46:41 Tyler Woloshyn: "Fly you fools." Gandalf.   00:47:28 Debra: Tyler, you are not the only 'nerd' lol   00:47:36 Ren: The nerds: Tyler, and everyone who got the joke :-D   00:48:48 Tyler Woloshyn: Glad that we are in good company. :)   00:50:34 Tyler Woloshyn: Post-Lenten shout out to the Life of St. Mary of Egypt.   00:50:38 Anthony: OK, is our goal then to walk about in life with a serene sould, and not be bothered by any temptation of body or mind, not distressing ourselves, but letting it pass?   00:54:07 Forrest Cavalier: There is a connection to obedience mentioned in this story: he did not obey the monastic rule against self mutilation.   01:05:05 Ren: On the topic of penance, I find that penance, among other things, is valuable in revealing that extent to which a true spirit of repentance as been fostered in the heart. When I embrace my penance and perform it soon after confession I am eager to apply spiritual medicine to my soul. Often, however, I am reluctant to accept penance, anxious about what the priest will give me, and am slow in performing it. Then, it is revealed to me that the spirit of repentance really hasn’t been fostered well in my heart   01:06:42 Forrest Cavalier: The consequences in this story were more lenient than the Old Testament law: Num 15:30-31 But anyone who acts defiantly,e whether a native or an alien, reviles the LORD, and shall be cut off from among the people. For having despised the word of the LORD and broken his commandment, he must be cut off entirely and bear the punishment. Dt 18:20 But if a prophet presumes to speak a word in my namel that I have not commanded, or speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.   01:08:38 Tyler Woloshyn: I felt the part where St. Savvas mentioned to Iavokos that if he could not manage a pot of beans he could not manager a monastery. It is simple yet very enlightening.  God gives us so many graces and gifts, yet at times I know where I can do much better and not looking to throw out those pot of beans when frustration over life goals or discernment does not work out immediately.  Humility is a very wonderful thing.  Even the smallest of actions can be teaching moments.   01:10:36 Debra: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime   01:10:50 Carol Nypaver: 👍🏻   01:12:42 Ren: Iakovos does seem like a bit of a hopeless case. I wonder if his quick death after this last act of repentance was not an act of mercy on the part of the Lord. Take him out before he can screw up again   01:14:24 Tyler Woloshyn: Will never look at a pot of beans in the same way. Will think of St. Savvas from now on.  Especially going through a discernment process.   01:14:59 Anthony: I'd like to see us Catholics build on the theme of St. John Damascene, repentence is turning away from unnatural living and towards the life God intended for us.  That is a kind of repentence that I could more easily understand, instead of the "afflict yourself" meaning that is perennially popular among Catholics in different rites.   01:16:50 Erick Chastain: "but I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection" 1 cor 9:27   01:19:35 Ashley Kaschl: It’s kinda long. Sorry 😂 I have thoughts.   01:19:38 Ashley Kaschl: Some of these holes Iakovos has dug himself, even to the severity of mutilating himself and being cast out of his community, are reminding me of the reflections of St. Bernard of Clairvaux on the Song of Songs, specifically the kisses prior to “let him kiss me with the kiss of his lips”, which to the angels and Saints seems to be an offensive desire. Like Iakovos wanting for more than he is currently trustworthy of.    It is for this reason that St. Bernard goes into the prior kisses: namely the kiss of the feet of Christ. That Iakovos would have to humble himself under the instruction of Savvas, and return to the feet of Christ to kiss His wounds for the realization of the cost of his sins, and then extend his arm up, that Christ might draw him upwards so that he could eventually kiss his hands, entering into the life of virtue and friendship with Christ, hence the fruit of reparation.   01:24:15 Rachel: Thank you   01:24:38 Tyler Woloshyn: Good night everyone. God bless!  

Thank you one and all who participated in tonight's group. Your comments brought to life the already powerful writing of St. John Climacus in an extraordinary way! Synopsis: This evening we read the final four paragraphs of Step One of the Ladder “On the renunciation of the world.”  Climacus emphasizes the importance of letting the beginning of the spiritual life be good and strong so that the end of our lives may correspond to the start. To begin well is to end well. Thus, we want to begin the spiritual life with zeal and fervor for the Lord and without a fear of mortifying the flesh or depriving oneself. Lack of courage can mask itself as prudence and so prevent us from engaging in the ascetical life. As one Saint said, “Heaven is not for cowards.“ We are engaged in a spiritual battle and we wage war against principalities and powers who are relentless and seeking to undermine our efforts. Our determination then, to serve Christ, must be unambiguous. Whatever state we find ourselves in we must zealously pursue God and His love. All are called holiness and while we must be discerning about the path forward that we take we must clearly understand that we must invest ourselves more and more each day.  St John also emphasizes the importance of community. There are certain dangers in traveling the spiritual path alone. If one falls -  there is no one around who will pick him up out of despondency. In this regard, St.John refers to the Lord's teaching: “For where two or three are gathered in My name, there I am in the midst of them.”  St. John concludes by asking one question: “Who is the faithful and wise (monk) person?” It is he who has kept fervor unabated until the end of his life and has not ceased daily to add fire to fire, fervor to fervor, zeal to zeal, love to love. It is such a beautiful way to end the first step on renunciation. What we renounce we renounce for one purpose - to free us in order to love God unimpeded. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:08:40 Robyn Greco: Hi Father, Hi everyone. Hope everyone is well this evenng   00:08:52 FrDavid Abernethy, CO: hello Robyn   00:12:53 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: Happy Easter -- Great to be here -- Alleluia   00:13:17 Rachel: Happy Easter!   00:19:33 Anthony: In my opinion, only great love can motivate a person to do what is repugnant - self sacrifice, or even a Cross.  So maybe Love can overcome spiritual sloth.  You  need to find the love, though.  It must be almost tangible, more tangible than self-love or false prudence.   00:22:22 Robyn Greco: 2 small meals and one regular meal, is that really a fast though? it doesn't seem to be   00:24:21 Ren: This is why we should never resent those who enter the vineyard at the ninth hour, so to speak. There are so many great things to be gained by spending one’s youth, and whole life, laboring for Christ.   00:25:55 Debra: What was that book/author again?   00:26:38 Ren: Adalbert de Vogue   00:26:42 Eric Williams: A point worth considering: hundreds of years ago, it was normal to go to bed shortly after sunset, sleep 3 hours or so, get up for maybe an hour, and sleep again for 3 hrs or so. Humans haven't had biphasic sleep since the invention of electric light. Vigils seem less extreme when viewed in light of biphasic sleep.   00:26:49 Robyn Greco: Does St John have any of these spiritual actions for those who are not well in body or does he not get into that? Thank You   00:27:01 Debra: Thank you, Ren   00:28:11 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: Benefits of fasting for the spiritual life:   00:29:07 Andreea and Anthony: I have always been troubled by devotions to saints that self-mutilate and that is exalted as proof of their holiness. Example St. Rose of Lima, a saint from my birth city. What you said about having the right balance between disciplining the body and torturing the body struck a chord with me. What are we to make of these saints?   00:31:09 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: We recognize that everything comes as a gift; Fasting purifies our eating; Fasting calls us to hunger for the Lord; Fasting deepens our sense of hope and expectation; Fasting stirs our repentance and compunction; Fasting controls our desires; Fasting intensifies our prayer.   00:35:15 Eric Williams: "Do not test the Lord, your God." Taking up extreme practices willy-nilly is testing God - a temptation for which Jesus demonstrated refusal.   00:35:50 Sam Rodriguez: Father, you made the distinction between mortifying the bodily passions and spiritual passions. St. John of the Cross represents that division as a progression. For example, in Ascent of Mount Carmel, it's a movement from the "Night of the Senses" (which is more bodily & our sensory engagement) to the Night of the Soul (leading to growth in Faith), then Night of the Memory (growth in Hope) and then Night of the Will (growth in Charity) as a culminating moment to the Journey. Similarly the first 8 chapters of Dark Night of the Soul is concerned specifically with the "spiritual" versions of the Seven Deadly Sins. Which presumably is for those who, if I'm not mistaken, have already passed through the Night of the Senses. If I'm wrong in giving this account, please correct me. But I'm curious whether St. John Climacus and other Desert Fathers would see this "progressive" approach as overstated--that it must all be addressed simultaneously and whether the same would apply for pursuit of the Theological Virtues.   00:37:43 Rachel: And Theresa of Avila! Among others..   00:38:17 Andreea and Anthony: Btw, what page/paragraph are we on?   00:38:31 Ren: Page 59. Paragraph 25   00:38:37 Andreea and Anthony: Thanks!   00:38:49 Rachel: Thank you Sr. Barbara   00:44:36 Ambrose Little: But he's gonna keep sayin it. 😄   00:45:12 carolediclaudio: 😊   00:46:06 Eric Williams: As I said above, vigils were less eye-popping for people - even children - when humans engaged in biphasic sleep (before electric light).   00:46:38 Robyn Greco: Biphasic sleep?   00:46:58 Debra: Robyn....Two distinct sleep periods per night   00:47:07 Robyn Greco: Thank you   00:48:56 Debra: CCD in the 70s...just be kind to each other   00:49:19 Sean: And make a felt banner   00:49:25 Robyn Greco: Do you think that's why we don't really have many saints today?   00:49:50 Debra: Sean...I'm feeling attacked LOL   00:50:10 Robyn Greco: You are a rare breed these days Father. Thankful for you   00:50:18 carolediclaudio: What page?   00:50:35 Carol Nypaver: 59   00:50:45 carolediclaudio: Thanks Carol!   00:51:00 Carol Nypaver: 😍   00:52:16 Ambrose Little: It takes time for canonizations to happen, usually. There are very many processes in progress—the Vatican office that handles this has more than it can handle, and quite regular canonizations of folks even in the last 60 years. And that's just the recognized ones.   00:53:20 Vicki Nichols: Bl. Jerzy Popiełuszko, was martyred in 1984   00:54:00 Debra: Carlos Acutis was beatified in the 2000s   00:55:30 Art: Messenger of the Truth.  Great film on Fr. Jerzy P.!!   00:56:38 Vicki Nichols: yes it is a good film!   00:57:27 Robyn Greco: sadly, today, there are a lot of us left alone in our spiritual walk, we are parched In the desert   00:57:51 Anthony: St. Maximos Skete, Palmyra / Fluvanna County, VA.   01:01:07 Andreea and Anthony: What is meant by this? It sounds like relying on emotions, which are passing. Many times the fire and fervor are just not felt.   01:02:59 Bonnie Lewis: And we must do this each and every day. upon awakening.   01:03:54 Ren: I don’t understand the second to last sentence in paragraph 24. “For you will scarcely find anyone…who is determined to mortify his flesh, although he might deprive himself of many pleasant dishes”? Could you explain this a little more? How is this form of deprivation not a good example of mortification?   01:07:20 Debra: Do you need a spiritual director to do a daily fast?   01:07:26 Debra: oops   01:09:16 Art: To Love Fasting  downloadable PDF  https://archive.org/details/tolovefasting   01:09:40 Carol Nypaver: Thank you, Art!   01:10:06 Debra: Great discussion, I need to go....parish council...blergh Bye!   01:10:44 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: Thank you for the link Art.   01:10:57 Anthony: Yet, food is art.  It is true, good and beautiful - there is a natural law associated with food.  We don't whitewash walls like Puritans do (well, perhaps Carthusians do) but we have and celebrate iconography.  Judicious use of God's gifts within mortification is important.  Beautiful material art can degenerate to kitsch; beautiful food can degenerate to sumptuousness.  But, we LOVE icons and we LOVE food, both made and appreciated judiciously, per natural law and spiritual law.   01:11:18 Art: YW sister!   01:12:24 Anthony: Thanks, Father. :^)   01:14:01 Ren: Norway   01:14:15 Ren: Best. Movie. Ever   01:14:25 Sam Rodriguez: SUCH a great movie   01:14:32 Bonnie Lewis: I just watched the movie last week.  It's a beautiful movie.   01:14:49 Robyn Greco: Whats the name of the movie again? Thank You   01:14:56 Bonnie Lewis: It brought them a love for one another.   01:14:57 Ren: Babette’s Feast   01:15:03 Robyn Greco: Thank you Ren   01:15:06 Anthony: I would LOVE this movie.  Food is a gift we can give to others.   01:15:31 Ren: ““Stand on the edge of the abyss and when you feel that it is beyond your strength, break off and have a cup of tea.” - Fr. Sophrony   01:16:22 Cindy Moran: Great session Fr Abernathy   01:16:25 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you!!!   01:16:42 Mitchell Hunt: Thank you Father so good  

This evening we started a new Hypothesis, number 20. The focus is on receiving the advice of the fathers and how important it is not to develop an individualistic approach to the spiritual life. Asceticism can very quickly become something of our own making. Whenever we are guided simply by our own judgment, spiritual practices can very easily lead us into pride. The longer that we are in such a state, the greater the danger of falling into delusion. One who thinks he is above the elders’ or anyone else’s judgment, he who seeks no one else’s counsel, will come to experience the greatest darkness. We are part of the living body of the Church and God has given us that which is most essential for our sanctity. Despite the darkness that we see within the world and sometimes see within the life of the Church, we do not want to lose sight of God‘s Providential care and the guidance of the Spirit. Nor do we want to lose sight of those God has put on our path to help support us and guide us. Such an attitude requires from us an openness to the guidance of the Spirit in our lives. Above all it requires humility. Our path as Christian men and women is distinctly the path of humility, the path of the cross, and so we must never be deluded to the extent that we place our own judgment above others.  In the end such an attitude will eventually lead us to place our judgment above God himself. From such a tragic darkness - we may never emerge. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:16:39 Anthony: Look at the history of Family Radio for a contemporary example.   00:18:33 John White: O felix culpa! O happy carbuncle!   00:18:52 carolnypaver: 🤣   00:22:20 Josie: you said that the reason he fell was because he did not listen to the fathers however we do not have fathers nowadays therefore we also have no one to listen to   00:29:11 Ambrose Little: We have have a great treasure trove of saintly writings to learn from and be disciples to—much more so than in the time of the early desert fathers—and to complement Scripture, and we also have our pastors, our bishops, who often provide contemporary guidance on things that are new and/or relevant to our time that may not have been so previously.  We also can have spiritual friends who can encourage us and build us up—many lay institutes, fraternities, and so forth, as well as less formal spiritual friendships.   00:29:54 Ren: God bless translators!   00:35:11 Ambrose Little: We also have this group! 🙂   00:35:32 Carol Nypaver: 👍🏻   00:35:53 Ren: Yes! And a Father with a very authoritative beard to listen to :-D   00:36:48 Carol Nypaver: “Abba David of the Beard”😇   00:37:47 Anthony: To modify something attributed to Padre Pio:  "If you think I would make a mistake, do you think God would?"  Go out with a good will, be determined to be pliable to God, try to exert right reason, be cheerful & hopeful; God will take care of you, lead you along, bring you to the right people (for your instruction and for you to help), even if not an "elder."  (And beware Jansenism, the scourge of 'traditional' Catholic spiritual formation, especially among French and Americans.  I like a priest-monk friend's praise of peasant spirituality; for me, it fits.)   00:37:56 Ambrose Little: He's amazing. I love all his stuff I've seen (Fr. Cantalamessa).   00:41:14 Anthony: yes   00:43:12 Josie: Anthony do you mean also not to overthink things?   00:43:26 Anthony: that's part of it, Josie   00:43:33 Bridget McGinley: As a wound care nurse, I have seen women come in that have sincerely regretted having breast augmentation procedures due to the consequences of complications and you can see and feel the mark of remorse in them for this vanity. This story about the wayward monk resonates with me because I have seen this exact thing that is written. How do we recognize pride of heart when there are so many paths both good and  bad? Like fasting and prayer life, how do we avoid excesses? How do we know (i.e. signs) that we are being balanced and humble in our spiritual life if we don't have that spiritual father to discuss the details of our lives to?   00:47:53 Bridget McGinley: Thank you Father.   00:53:09 Anthony: Historically, Franciscans rescued Catholics in danger of falling into Catharism and Waledensianism.   01:01:55 Ambrose Little: It seems like we can lose sight of the Providence of God. We can focus on the lessening of a particular kind of spiritual guidance, or particular traditions and pious practices, or particular ways of celebrating the liturgy. But what is God giving us in place of them? How is God calling us to grow and live in our own day? What faith-filled friends has he put in our lives that we overlook or take for granted, who could help us grow? What might we be missing? Surely God is not leaving us without his gifts and the necessary helps we need to live our lives of faith? Are we insisting that God help us in the way we want rather than the way He wants? I think folks here in this group are taking advantage of one of the great gifts God is giving us today.   01:03:59 Rachel: LOL Yep   01:07:04 Ren: These stories prove so perfectly, via negativa, the teachings of the last hypothesis on obedience as the sure path to the virtues (that also protects us from pride). I frequently find myself formulating elaborate prayer rules, being very satisfied with them, and then failing miserably. So, the only thing I got out of it was an hour of pride. It seems that taking one’s spiritual life into one’s own hands is always a very dangerous way and that, unless under the instruction of a director, one should keep to the simple way of the church’s teachings, and its guidance concerning prayer. Nothing more. Nothing “creative”. The spiritual benefits will never outweigh the danger of pride. It reminds me of Philip Neri, and his disciple who insisted on keeping vigil and ended up harming himself permanently.   01:09:09 Ambrose Little: I personally prefer paleo prayer.   01:09:11 Eric Williams: Exodus 90 🙄   01:13:02 Rachel: Simple......lol ..oook   01:13:09 Anthony: Isn't my river in Syria a while much nicer than the dirty Jordan River?   01:13:26 Ambrose Little: Simple but not easy! 😄   01:13:57 Anthony: Master, if the prophet asked you to do something great, wouldn't you have done it?  So Naaman bathed in the simple, dirty Jordan and was a changed man   01:15:03 Ashley Kaschl: I think this individualism we were talking about can also lead to a touch of willful ignorance of certain areas of the faith within groups of people. I’ve encountered a lot of adults who cannot be roused to investigate potentially fruitful areas of the spiritual life because “it isn’t for them” or they “don’t want to go down that road.” There’s a sentiment of “I pray, I love God, and I’m faithful, and that’s good enough for me.” But I think that is a dangerous place to be in the spiritual life, because I don’t think we should ever be “content” with where we are. Individualistic faith seems to sometimes lead to mediocrity, which could also be a subtle symptom of pride; to cling covetously to the spiritual life we’ve “made” for ourselves.   01:17:06 Josie: does anyone know a good online bible study?...   01:17:31 Ambrose Little: Fr. Mike's Bible in a Year is great from everyone I know who’s done/doing it.   01:17:54 Josie: thank you, but i meant i group like this one..?   01:20:15 Ambrose Little: or only pay attention to the bits that agree with what we already think!   01:21:29 Rachel: Thank you   Forrest Cavalier: I wanted to share a connection I made to Hypothesis 20. The topic summary for Hypothesis 20 is in the 1783 edition in greek, translated as "That no man should trust in himself for anything, but should listen to the counsel of the fathers in all things, and should confess the secrets of his heart without concealing anything." But it seems to me that the first few stories are monks cutting themselves off from the goodness of community. And some of it can seem very brutal and harsh, and that is why I am writing. I was also reading this week St. John Chrysostom Homily 12 on Acts. (Next Sunday the reading from Acts is immediately after the story of Ananias and Sapphira. I wondered about Peter's shadow, and the homily covers both stories in Acts and shows that they are integrally connected.) https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210112.htm I think the ideas in Homily 12 are connected to the stories at the start of Hypothesis 20, and I found this accidentally. We in the modern church do not have too many experiences of people being cast out of community, and maybe we even have frustration that more people are not cast out. But we want it to be medicinal. We want people to be forgiven and reconciled and rejoined into community. As I read the first parts of Hypothesis 20, my gut reaction is difficulty in seeing the stories as being a good model of community discipline. But then I happened to read Homily 12, which makes a strong argument that it is not extreme that prideful people are cut off from goodness, and that their wounding of the community is partially healed by casting them out. Homily 12 says that there was a superabundance of grace in the community after Ananias and Sapphira were cut off from the land of the living, and there would have been no benefit to let them live longer than they did. That's harsh! Yet, the superabundance included even Peter's shadow being salvific, which Homily 12 says was a sign greater than what Christ himself performed, a partial fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy of the greater signs they would perform in his name! And then when I went searching for "pride" in scripture, I found many other Bible passages with similar harsh consequences for being so prideful. (I found these with my search tool, and selected some of them. I included the Mt 25:21 because of the story about the pot of beans, which I think you probably will not get to read tonight, but maybe.) Num 15:30-31 But anyone who acts defiantly, whether a native or an alien, reviles the LORD, and shall be cut off from among the people. For having despised the word of the LORD and broken his commandment, he must be cut off entirely and bear the punishment. Prov 16:2 All one’s ways are pure* in one’s own eyes, but the measurer of motives is the LORD. Dt 18:20 But if a prophet presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded, or speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. Prov 16:4 The LORD has made everything for a purpose, even the wicked for the evil day. Prov 16:5 Every proud heart is an abomination to the LORD; be assured that none will go unpunished. Prov 16:18 Pride goes before disaster, and a haughty spirit before a fall. Mt 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’ 1 Tim 3:6 He should not be a recent convert, so that he may not become conceited and thus incur the devil’s punishment.