The Copywriter Club Podcast

Kristin Kenzy, a business strategist and storyteller behind the Drunk Business Advice newsletter, shares her unique insights into effective storytelling for newsletters. She introduces her 'accordion pitch' technique, emphasizing the importance of engaging hooks and layered storytelling. Kristin also emphasizes writing for an audience over private journaling, as it fosters audience connection and valuable lessons. Plus, learn how to humanize data and why mastermind groups are essential for growth. Her journey from real estate to writing is both inspiring and practical!

In another throwback episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we're taking a deeper look at goal setting and a proven process to help you get more done in 2025. Dave Ruel, the author of Done by Noon, walks through his framework for setting goals (or intentions) and making sure they happen—before noon. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Done by Noon by Dave Ruel 4000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman Get Dave’s workshop in The Copywriter Underground The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  If you’re listening to this episode as it goes live, today is the final day of 2024. Many of us are looking forward to the new year and new opportunities to grow and get things done. I’m not a big fan of resolutions. They tend to be good for a few weeks, but after 4 weeks are often forgotten. It’s even a cliche now to mention how full gyms are on February 1 compared to January 1st. The drop off shows how ineffective resolutions can be for most of us. So what does work? Well, the past year or two I’ve focused more on behaviors rather than goals or resolutions. That is, making time to exercise every morning without a goal to lose weight or compete in a marathon or bench press a certain weight. Making time to do something every day is something I can do. This applies to other goals as well, like time spent reading rather than having a goal to read 24 books a year. By scheduling time to read every day, I can reach the 24 books read without setting a goal.  So that begs the question, how do you make sure you spend your time on the activities and behaviors that will get you closer to the person you want to be? A few years ago, we asked something similar of Dave Ruel, the author of Done by Noon. That book is one of my favorites when it comes to getting stuff done. My other favorite takes an almost completely opposite view of time management and getting stuff done and that’s Oliver Burkeman’s 4000 Weeks. I’ll link to both in the shownotes in case you want to check them out. For today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I went back into the archives to resurrect this mostly forgotten interview with Dave Ruel. And while he does talk about goals, he shares a framework for making sure your schedule includes plenty of time for the behaviors you want to implement into your life. If you’re looking to get more done in 2025, some of his ideas will help. Before I share what Dave told us, after this interview we realized that we wanted to go deeper with Dave and his system. So we recorded a workshop where he walks through everything what he shares during this interview… at an even deeper level. That workshop is one of the dozens of business focused trainings available right now in The Copywriter Underground. Coming up in January of 2025, we’ll be adding several more, including a workshop for copywriters who want to work either part time or full time with a client. My friend Jessica, who spent 2 decades as a recruiter for a creative talent agency will share why copywriters are so bad at resumes and cover letters and what they need to do differently if they want to land a so-called “real” job. And Esai Arasi will be sharing how to build relationships with prospects at scale, without burning out on social media. Both of these workshops are happening in January and are completely free for Copywriter Underground members. If you want them… along with the time management workshop from Dave Ruel, go to thecopywriterlcub.com/tcu now to join. And like last week, you’ll hear Kira Hug asking questions on this episode as it is a throwback to 2020 when she and I were co-hosting this podcast. Okay, with that let’s jump in with Dave Ruel as he tells us how he became an entrepreneur focused on sharing better time management strategies… ———— Dave Ruel:  I’m going to go back to my days as a fitness athlete. This is pretty much when it all started. So, in the early 2000s, I was an amateur competitive bodybuilder. So, I was very obsessed with everything fitness, bodybuilding, muscle building, you name it. In 2007, I met a guy named Lee Hayward. We were fellow competitors on the regional circuit. So, we’ve known of each other within the local circuit, but I’ve never met Lee in person. I was traveling to his hometown to compete that weekend. So, Lee actually offered me to stay at his house that weekend. We only knew each other little bit, but I never knew what he was doing for a living. The first morning, he was having coffee. He’s like, “Well, I’m going to do some work. I’m going to answer a couple emails and then I should be done by noon. And then we can go work out.” I was like, “Yeah, it’s nice to be on vacation and have that schedule.” He’s like, “Well, it’s pretty much like the way we operate here.” I was like, “Really? What is it that you do?” He’s like, “Well, I have a bodybuilding website. I make a full living out of it and making six figures a year, working from home. My wife works with me.” I was like, “Well, okay, I need to understand how you do to that.” So, I quickly treated my passion for fitness to an obsession for business building, started studying direct response marketing, anything that had to do with online marketing. It was very limited at the time, because obviously, that’s in 2007. So, there was not that much going on when it comes to online businesses. Now, everything’s online. If you’re not online, you’re nowhere. But at the time, it was very different. So, I created my first business at that time. It was a website that I was sharing nutrition and cooking tips for bodybuilding and fat loss that was called the Muscle Group. The website is still on. We still sell digital products on that platform. From there, I emerged more on the publishing marketing agency. So, basically, other coaches and other experts saw what I was doing online. They wanted to do the same thing. So, I was like, “Okay, well you have an audience, I know how to monetize that.” Then we launched an agency that led me to invest in a company called BiOptimizers. So, that’s natural supplements company. We did full turnaround with that company, sold it in 2016. During that time, for me, becoming an entrepreneur, it’s like anything else, going to the gym once doesn’t make you an athlete. I feel the same thing with entrepreneurship. You have to do it in order to understand what it is. In the process, I did obviously all the mistakes in the books that most entrepreneurs make when it comes to managing their time, their energy, their attention. I build systems around my life in business in order to fix that and mostly inspiring by what I had learned in sports performance. I saw there’s too many weird similarities between both worlds. So, I started adapting that. Yeah. So, in 2016, I had the opportunity after I sold my last business to start coaching entrepreneurs. So, basically, entrepreneurs were coming to meet for the online business stuff that you’re talking about. Okay, I want to build an online business to have the freedom and yada, yada, yada, but what I realized that these entrepreneurs don’t need more tactics or strategies to gain more customers and convert more. What they needed really was a framework to help them operate as entrepreneurs. I started sharing my systems with them. The results spoke for themselves. This is how Effic was born. We’re going to share these techniques, these systems with everybody. Yeah, now a few years later, we don’t do coaching, but we have certifications now, where we certify basically various business coaches or consultants who want to use that with their clients. We have, obviously, the Effic planner, which is our best-selling tool. Rob Marsh:  So, we’re definitely going to get into more of that, but I want to go back to the amateur bodybuilding phase of your career as you’re just starting out. I’m guessing that there are a lot of behaviors, a lot of things that you were doing as a bodybuilder that apply to how you ran your businesses or that even run your business today. Will you tell us a little bit about what you learned in that phase of your career that you apply to your business today? Dave Ruel:  Yeah, a lot of timeless techniques that we have in… It’s not just bodybuilding. It’s really through sports performance in general. The thing that you need to have in order to become a good athlete or a good entrepreneur is discipline. The thing is that when I started training really and didn’t know that I was going to compete or anything like that, I did that just to transform myself, I realized the structure it would give me, the workouts, how to structure my workouts, how to structure my goals, having an understanding, “What do I really want? Do I want to build muscle, burn fat? What do I need to do first?” The foundational work that you set and from there, you start optimizing and optimizing with time. The thing is that your structure needs to be solid before you actually optimize, right? I see a lot of people do that. The mistake that many gym goers do in the beginning is that they’re going to take all the supplements on the market thinking that it’s going to fast track their results and they don’t have a solid base. Their nutrition is not good. Their programs are not structured properly. They end up going to the gym all the time thinking like, “The more I’m going to lift weights, the longer I’m going to do it, the bigger I’m going to get or the more fat I’m going to lose.” It’s actually the opposite that happens. So, there’s an order to how things need to happen. Within this structure, you need to have different habits, different routines that make that sustainable. You don’t just want to do that for X amount of time and it’s done. It’s a lifestyle. So, it’s the same thing with entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship is very much of a lifestyle.

Jason Rutkowski, a skilled copywriter specializing in the financial and health niches, shares his journey from struggling writer to industry leader. He emphasizes the importance of mentorship and strategic networking for success. Rutkowski discusses the rigorous learning process involved in mastering copy and the critical role of hands-on practice. He also provides insights into excelling in health and wellness copywriting, stressing the need for extensive research and building a strong portfolio. His advice is invaluable for aspiring copywriters.

Heather Parady, a content strategist and former therapist, shares her transformative journey from therapy to media. She dives into the significance of authenticity in storytelling and explains how to craft engaging content through strategic hooks. Heather discusses the impact of video length on viewer engagement, advocating for impactful short-form videos. She explores the intersection of spirituality and marketing, emphasizing the importance of embracing feedback while maintaining emotional presence in creativity. Tune in for innovative tips to elevate your content game!

Wondering how copywriters could be using Facebook and Instagram ads to grow their business? Our guest for the 425th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie. Kwadwo had to reinvent his business during the pandemic. And today he helps businesses grow with ads on Meta. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Accelerator FastTrack The Art of Online Business Podcast The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Facebook ads. Copywriters write them. Some copywriters run them. All of us see and click on them. And yet, most of us don’t have a deep understanding of how to use them for our clients or our own businesses. It’s not a skill you can easily pick up by listening to a podcast, but we can get a deeper understanding of them with the help of an expert. Hi I’m Rob Marsh and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my guest is Facebook Ads Manager Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie. Kwadwo’s business collapsed during the pandemic and he had to create an entirely new means for supporting his family. So he began a business helping others use Facebook to promote their products.   That’s not all we talked about. Kwadwo talked about the value of learning a new language and how that can change your perspective on the world. And the challenges of starting over. I think you’re going to like this episode. Before we get to that… I’ve been telling you about The Copywriter Accelerator FastTrack— that’s our business foundations program used by more than 350 copywriters to start, build and scale their own writing business. Graduates include six-figure writers like Justin Blackman, Kirsty Fanton, Michal Eisik, Dani Paige, Krystal Church and hundreds of others. The only way to get the business changing strategies and proven ideas we share in The Accelerator is with the Fast Track edition. And it will be going away sometime in the new year.  So if you’ve been thinking of joining the accelerator, this is just about your last chance to get that game-changing program. I’m working on a new program that will replace it… something that will be more concise and immediately applicable. It’s too soon to reveal the details but if you join The Accelerator FastTrack before we launch this new program, you’ll get The Accelerator and free access to the new program when it launches. That includes all of the content, the 8 modules and blueprints and several bonuses that will help you find and land the high-paying clients you want. If you get started with the FastTrack now, when the new year is here you’ll be ready with a steady flow of clients and a signature service you’re proud to offer them. Visit thecopywriterclub.com/fasttrack to learn more today. And now, let’s go to our interview with Kwadwo... Kwadwo welcome to the podcast. I'm excited. First of all, as I said, as we were starting to chat just to meet you, but also to have you on to tell us your story, how you became a Facebook ads manager, a strategy partner, host of a very popular podcast. How did you get here? Kwadwo: Let's go back to when I was sitting in Beijing, China, the capital of China, with my wife at a Mediterranean restaurant. And we were enjoying our hummus and naan and we're sitting and we're overlooking like a popular shopping strip. And so we're chatting and just relating about China life because I've lived there for 12 years. And the next thing that happened was It's very typical for me, but my wife had never experienced before. And so a couple of tables down, there's two Russian girls. They had spotted me, and they had started giggling like they saw somebody famous. And the thing is, I was famous, and I'll go into that in a moment. they made their way over to the table and, you know, say, excuse me, introduce themselves and wanted to take a selfie with me. So I introduced them to my wife and then did the selfie thing and they went away. And my wife was like, wow, you weren't joking. Like this happens. People recognize you as the elementary Chinese guy. And elementary Chinese was my prior business that got decimated by the pandemic where I taught Mandarin Chinese.  I'm going to go into the story a little bit, but I taught Mandarin Chinese to expats, expatriates, people who are not Chinese, but living and working professionally in China. And that was going quite well. I have this desire now as a Facebook ad manager, and I'm skipping forward, but we'll get back to that previous business and what happened and why I'm not doing that anymore. But I have the desire to help people run their ads profitably and not make the mistakes that I made back then that got me famous for that previous business, but did not fill up my courses with a bunch of students who were the right fit for me to serve.  And so here's what happened. I was basically on the Hollywood B-lister level of fame. Conservatively, three out of ten people, expats, in China would recognize me on the street. And that happened because one timing, it's some sort of success that usually has to do with like luck and chance. And so one was timing. I was showing ads at a time in China, a market that's walled off. So like all of the good social media, you know, the YouTubes, the Pinterest, the Twitters, X now, Facebook and Instagram, you can't access in China without a VPN, virtual private network that helps you tunnel under what they call the great firewall of China to keep out all the Western influence. And so I was showing Facebook ads for that business in China and getting my funny videos about speaking Chinese were showing up for super cheap all over everyone, at least the expats, like iPhones and Android devices. And that grew my Instagram account. I don't know, 27, almost 30,000 folks like back in 2017, 2018, which is not a huge account, but decent. And lots of people knew me, but because Instagram is all about showing your ads. And this is why I say, constantly do not boost your post. Instagram loves it. I know you've seen it on your Instagram, right? This post is reaching more people than usual. Let's go ahead and show it to more. Hit that boost button now. And it's like, don't do it. Don't do it. They want to show your post to people who like to interact. But if only all of our Instagram followers or even 80% of them, 70% I'll take that turned into customers. What happened was is since I have two kids and my wife and I like to speak foreign languages to our kids, I was speaking Mandarin to them. Their nanny in China was speaking Mandarin to them. My wife speaks fluent Spanish.  We decided to take a vacation to Mexico and it happens to be on January 13th, 2020. And so a couple of weeks after that, people start looking at us sideways and saying, uh, where did you say you came from again? And we're like, uh, we've been out of China for 14 days. We're good to go. And then we were quarantining in Mexico. We extended our Airbnb into like a three month long-term stay because why not? It's Mexico, chips and guac everywhere. A bit less so during the quarantine and then China shut down their border. So. And I think they gave us seven days to fly back. And well, who wants to buy one-way tickets with less than seven day notice for four people? And because my business was incorporated in China at the time, teaching Chinese, and our visas were tied to that business, we ended up not being able to return to China, having to get our cell phones, hop on FaceTime, because we're Apple users, and get rid of everything in our apartment when our apartment lease was up. And so imagine four, four bedrooms of stuff, some good friends going over there and we got reunited with six luggages later on. And that was how the previous business ended. And the current, I guess the genesis of the current business where I, I coach and help with funnel strategy for online course creators and I run their Facebook and Instagram ads. That's how that started. Rob Marsh: That is nuts. Just the being locked out of your home, your place, everything. That's crazy. Kwadwo: Yeah. I think it technically was a midlife crisis. Hopefully I live longer than the half life that I had lived up to that point. Rob Marsh: It might be your first midlife crisis. I hope to never have one nearly as bad as that. Before we talk about, you know, Facebook and the things you're doing in your business, let's talk about learning languages. So I am, I am one of those people who I love to travel, love to travel. Yes. But. I am also terrible in that I cannot speak another language fluently. I know a little bit of Spanish. I can read a little bit of French if I'm really focused on it, a little bit of Italian. But yeah, I don't know. All my kids speak French. My youngest daughter speaks a little bit of Spanish. She's not all the way there yet, but my wife speaks French fluently. She also happens to speak Italian and Spanish. So I'm surrounded by it, but I'm that awful American who's never bothered to go out and learn the language. Let's talk about why, why this is such an important skill set for some of us who, certainly if we love to travel, but why it can add other things, even if we're not traveling. Kwadwo: Okay. First of all, we got to dispel the guilt. Awful American. It's something that people will say from other countries. I don't feel that awful about it actually. The context is important though. We're born in the US, like many people would say, like the most powerful country in the world. And in the States, the context, you don't necessarily need to learn another language. It's not like we're in Europe. And so like I just say, don't beat yourself up about it, but it's cool that you want to learn another language. So language learning, huh? Rob Marsh: Yeah, let's, let's, why? I mean, what, what does that add to? I mean, again,

Meg Kendall, a copywriter specializing in climate tech, shares her journey from bartending to becoming an industry expert. She discusses the power of creating impactful industry reports to build immediate credibility and trust with clients. The conversation delves into adapting strategies for the evolving climate tech landscape and the significance of effective frameworks in copywriting. Meg also highlights the importance of community support and balancing personal challenges while running a business, all while leveraging AI tools for enhanced client interactions.

For the 423rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we're checking in on the progress A.I. has made over the past year with Jon Gillham, founder of Originality.AI. We talked about how originality helps protect writers from false accusations of plagiarism and checks facts (unlike ChatGPT and Gemini), plus some of the risks that A.I. poses to the world of content creation. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Get the AI Bullet Writing Prompt Originality.AI The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Almost two years ago, we realized that A.I. was not just a new idea that copywriters and content writers needed to pay attention to, rather it was a game-changing technology that would impact almost everything writers do. The number of new tools and features that include use A.I. to deliver their benefits is in the thousands. That’s a big part of why we launched the A.I. for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast last year. You can find more than 20 conversations about A.I. on that podcast. But as A.I. has become almost commonplace, we stepped away from doing so many interviews about artificial intelligence and just how it is changing our industry. But I’m thinking it’s about time we checked in on how the tech has changed over the past few months and what copywriters should be using it for… if they aren’t already doing it. Hi I’m Rob Marsh and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my guest is Jon Gillham, the founder of Originality.AI. This tool is the most accurate A.I. detector available today. What’s more in addition to checking for content created by A.I., it’s a fact checker—something tools like Gemini and ChatGPT have struggled with, it checks for plagiarism, and will help protect you against clients and others who might claim your writing isn’t original. We talked about how they do it and the risks A.I. continues to pose for writers on this episode, so stay tuned. Before we get to that… last summer we ran the last ever live cohort of The Copywriter Accelerator program. Since then, the only way to get the business building insights and strategies that we shared with more than 350 copywriters over the past seven years was to join the Fast Track version of the accelerator at thecopywriterclub.com/fasttrack. But I’ve been working on an updated version of that program and it too will go away soon. So if you’ve been thinking of joining the accelerator, time is running out. What’s coming next? It’s too soon to reveal what I’ve been working on, but if you join the accelerator fast track before we launch it, you’ll get early access to the new program, absolutely free. Until then, you get all of the content, the 8 modules and blueprints and several bonuses that are included in The Accelerator Fast Track. And when we launch the new program sometime next year, you’ll get that updated program too. Don’t wait to work on your business so when the new year is here you have a steady flow of clients and a signature service you’re proud to offer them. Visit thecopywriterclub.com/fasttrack to learn more today. And now, let’s go to our interview with Jon Gillham. Hey, John, welcome to The Copywriter Club Podcast. We'd like to start with your story. So how did you become the founder of Originality AI, and I guess also the co-founder of AdBank and Motion Invest and Content Refined? You've done a lot of this company starting thing. Jon Gillham: Yeah, it's been a journey. Yeah, so my background was as a mechanical engineer, did that in school, and then I always knew that I wanted to get back to my hometown and started some sort of online projects. A lot of those projects all had sort of a central theme around creating content that would rank in Google, get traffic, and monetize that, whether that was an e-commerce site, a software business. And then at one point, we built up some extra capacity within the team that I had of writers that we were working with, and then started selling at extra capacity. So built up a content marketing agency, sold it, and then had seen the wave of generative AI coming. look to build a solution to try and help provide transparency between writers and agencies and, and clients. And that's where originality came from. Rob Marsh: So as far as most people's experience with AI, it really started about two years ago when, you know, ChatGPT went live and suddenly everybody was like, oh my gosh, this is not what we were expecting, or it's come along a lot faster. But you've been doing this a lot longer than that. Tell us, you know, basically, how did you get interested in AI and get started with creating these kinds of tools? Jon Gillham: Yeah, so I totally agree. I think a lot of people sort of assume everything on the internet that predated Chat GPT was human generated. But the reality is that there was other tools that predated Chat GPT. Specifically, there's the GPT-3 that got released by OpenAI in 2020, and then sort of from GPT-2 2020, and then From that, there were many writing tools that were built off the back of it, so tools like jasper.ai. And we were, at one point, one of the heaviest users of Jasper, where we had a writing service where we transparently used AI content, but stalled that content for a lot less than the human-generated content in another part of the content agency. And so that was where we really started to see that the efficiency lift that came from using AI and then, you know, who who gets to capture that efficiency if is it, you know, the writer that copies and pastes out of chat to BT that then displaces a writer that did hard work on their own. And that was sort of where, where we first started playing with AI. And then yeah, using it extensively within our content marketing agency. Rob Marsh: So before we go really deep on AI and the stuff that you've done, I'm interested, as a founder, as a co-founder, just what are some of the biggest challenges that you have faced as you've started your businesses? Again, we're talking to an audience of people who are running their own businesses, most of them. So I'm just curious how you've been able to succeed where so many others tend to fail. Jon Gillham: I mean, there's certainly failures in there. So they're not all successes. So I think the common theme is when we're solving it, the common themes on when there's success is probably two core things. One, that resolving a problem that is meaningful and adding sort of significant value by helping to solve whatever that problem is, is one. And the second piece is when there's been a really good team around that project, when the co-founders on it are great, when the initial hires are really, really good. Those are probably the two key things that have seemingly been the common traits when the projects have gone well, and there's certainly projects that haven't gone well, lots of failures in there as well. Rob Marsh: Interesting you say that. I worked at a startup a decade or two ago. the CEO that came in to run it. It was a fun environment, really great place to work. We had a successful exit, sold off to HP. And I remember the CEO saying, if you're lucky, you get to have an experience like this sometime in your career where you put together a great team, you've got a great product, you have this great experience. And then he said, and then you spend the rest of your life trying to replicate that at the next company or the company after. And there's a lot of truth to that. Jon Gillham: There's a lot of truth. In a lot of our weekly meetings at the All Hands right now, we're saying, like, you know, these are currently the good old days. So, like, enjoy them because we're going to be looking back at this, like, hopefully we will be fortunate to be lucky enough to be looking back at these days as the good old days, because it is a lot of fun right now. And I think, yeah, I certainly echo what he was saying in terms of, yeah, it doesn't, a lot of things need to go right to line up with sort of a, all the pieces to be in that sort of like a scaling stage of a company. Rob Marsh: Okay, so let's talk about Originality AI and this tool that you have built. Basically, my understanding of it is, you know, as I've scanned through and checked it out, it does a few different things. You know, checking to see if there's plagiarism, if some content was written by AI, some additional things as well. To me, this seems incredibly useful for a couple of different audiences. One, I teach a college class at one of the colleges here. I'm always using AI checkers. As I see submissions coming in from students, I'm like, that's suspicious. Let's run it through the checker. But obviously businesses hiring content writers, copywriters want to see that their stuff's original. Problem is sometimes the checkers don't work the way they're supposed to. So tell us about originality AI and the problems that you've been solving with it. Jon Gillham: Yeah, so the problem we started out to solve and being from the world that we were in within content marketing is a content, a final step in the content quality check. So kind of a final QA, QC on a piece of content. And so historically that might mean readability, readability check, plagiarism check. Okay, we're good to go to publish it. Now that means Checking for if it's been generated by AI or not, and we'll get into some of the challenges around that. Plagiarized, if it is or isn't. I mean, no one plagiarizes anymore when you can just get AI to write it for you. And then fact checking. So we have a fact checker built in because that's sort of a new an increase in heightened sensitivity around fact checking with the prevalence of generative AI content and hallucinations. And then some of the standard readability checks, grammar, and spelling checks.

Starting and growing a copywriting business isn't easy. So when we find a writer who seems to have figured it out, it's worth taking a closer look to see what's going on. So for the 422nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I asked Megan Smyth to share more about her business and podcast and how she's gotten so many things right as she's grown. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Accelerator Fast Track Megan's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  One of the things I love most about what I do at The Copywriter Club is the opportunity I have to see copywriters grow in so many different ways. They get better at writing. They build and develop amazing businesses that support the lifestyle they want—sometimes that’s something as dramatic as a full-time, six-figure business and other times it’s a part-time gig that helps pay some of the bills. And for copywriters who already have a business, it’s fun to watch them change and update the way they market themselves, create products, and find their ideal clients. Honestly, it’s a big part of why I do what I do. Hi I’m Rob Marsh and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I talked with copywriter and launch consultant, Megan Smyth. As you’ll hear during this interview, Megan is one of those copywriters who has made big changes to her business over the past couple of years. Megan’s a pre-med student turned copywriter and the business she’s created will inspire anyone who is just starting out or is ready to make a change—heck, I’m inspired by the progress she’s made. So stick around and listen to what Megan has to share about how she did it. Just a quick note… on this episode, we’ll mention The Copywriter Accelerator program that helped jump start Megan’s business and brand creation. That program is no longer available—at least in the format that Megan participated. However, we’ve taken all of the content, the 8 modules and blueprints and several bonuses and repurposed them into what we’ve called The Accelerator Fast Track. This version is designed to help you get results even faster. If, as you listen to us discuss that program, you are interested in how it might help you and your business, simply visit thecopywriterclub.com/fasttrack to learn more. And now, let’s go to our interview with Megan Smyth. Megan, welcome to the podcast. Tell us how you got started. How'd you become a copywriter, a course creator, now doing some coaching as well? You've come a long way. Megan Smyth: Yeah, doing all the things. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. It's an honor to be on this show. It's one of the very first podcasts I started listening to on this journey. So, you know, if we're talking about how I got started, very first copywriting and business podcast I ever listened to was yours. And I've learned so much from you and Kira. But yeah, so to kick it back, I did not grow up dreaming of being a copywriter. I've yet to meet anyone that even knows what that was at a young age. My plan was to be a doctor. So I studied pre-med in university, and I realized about halfway through that something was just not right. I was enjoying it, but not as much as my friends around me in the program. And I was sort of on this fast track to success. It seemed like I had it all figured out. I was in this great program. I was applying for early admission to med school and all these things. And there was just this voice in the back of my head that was like, this is not it. Something's not right. And so when all of my friends in the program were writing the MCAT over the summer, I took the summer off and I booked a one-way ticket to Thailand. And that was sort of my escape plan. Rather than tell everyone that I was having these doubts, I just left the country for three months. Just ran away from my problems, which is what you do at 19 years old. And I was just not sure what I wanted to do. I thought med school might not be it, but I wasn't sure what the other options were. And so I thought I would use this time to do some soul searching. I went to Bali. I did the whole thing. And I realized on that trip, what I really wanted to do was travel. That was a big motivator for me. I wanted the freedom to be able to work wherever I wanted to see the world and meet new people and have new experiences. And so I started looking for a career that would allow me to do that and stumbled into copywriting because I've always loved writing. And I just really fell in love with it from the beginning. I loved the sales aspect of it and the psychology aspect of understanding how people think and why they make decisions. And I started copywriting while I was still in university. And then I, you know, had a couple of clients on the side. I left my day job pretty immediately after graduating, which I don't recommend. Just don't head first into the whole thing. The same year I graduated, I was like, I'm going all in on this business. I launched a website as you do and waited for clients to just magically find me. They did not. And then in January, the next year I joined The Copywriter Accelerator and that is when things started to take off for me. Rob Marsh: So when you first launched, obviously this was before the accelerator or whatever, how did you get your first couple of clients? I mean, how did you even have the guts to say, I'm a copywriter, not knowing anything about it? Megan Smyth: Yeah, well, I didn't. That's a great question. So I applied for this job that I randomly found while browsing the web for things to do online, how to make money online. And someone had posted this job, and she was looking for actually a blog writer. And so that was how I started. And she was, at the time, yes, she was running a blog, but she was also running launches for her. She was a coach. And so slowly over time, I was watching her launch, and I had ideas and suggestions for how she could get more people in this program. And so she sort of brought me into that world of launching. And I ended up working with a seven-figure coach as my first client, just sort of out of the blue. I was 19 years old, I had no experience. And so there was a bit of luck involved, but I had the guts to apply to this job. And I basically said in my application, I have no experience, I have no qualifications, but I am willing to work so hard and I think I could do this. I think I could make a difference in your company." And she took a chance on me and to this day I'm very grateful for that. That sort of got my foot in the door and I just sort of gained experience as I went. Rob Marsh: I love that you had the guts to go for it because most of us, especially 19, 20 years old, most of us would be like, Oh, well, you know, I'm not qualified. And I think more, even more women than men, oftentimes we back up and, and aren't willing to step forward and say, well, I might not be qualified, but I'm willing to give it a go. So I love that approach. Megan Smyth: Yeah. Thank you. I was just going to say that I think a big contributing factor was, you know, I almost didn't apply for that job, but I, in the back of my head, I remembered reading the stats somewhere that, you know, men will apply for jobs if they only meet something like 40% of the qualification criteria, whereas women don't apply unless they have a hundred percent of those things checked off. And I just thought, screw that. I am not going to contribute to that. I'm going to apply. Cause the worst case scenario is they say no. And, you know, I tried to put myself out there and it worked out. Rob Marsh: Yeah, it's amazing. And it's probably should be one of the big takeaways from this episode. We're only a couple of minutes in and go for it is the lesson there. So you got into the copywriter accelerator and then you started to make some changes to your business. Talk about that and the thought process that went into deciding where you were going to focus your time, the kinds of clients you were going to serve, the kinds of services that you wanted to offer. Megan Smyth: Yeah, so by the time I joined The Copywriter Accelerator, I had been writing copy for over a year at that point, and I felt like I was getting really good at that side of things, but I still wasn't really treating it as a business. It was really hard to get out of that side hustle mindset when it had been a side hustle, you know, when I was in school, and then I had a day job working in medical research at the hospital all day, and it was hard to transition just my mindset around that. Now I suddenly had full-time hours that I could give to my business, but I had no idea what to spend that time on. And so, you know, in the accelerator, we learned all the different aspects of running a business. And that was when I started to really think through like, what is my marketing strategy going to be? How am I positioning myself? What is my branding? All of these things that sound like really basic, but you know, again, I was 20 years old and I had planned to work in the medical field. I had no idea what I was doing in business. It was all new to me. And I just, I loved it. I just kind of soaked up everything from Yunkira like a little sponge. I was like, how could I get the most possible out of this experience? Rob Marsh: Yeah. And, and then you've now you've launched a lot of stuff. So who did you ultimately decide to serve and what kinds of services did you launch with as you came out of the program? Megan Smyth: Yeah, so when I initially was in the program, we played around with niching. I was, like I mentioned, I started, my very first client was a coach and I loved working with female business coaches. And so I did a lot of work in that space, but towards the end of the accelerator and, you know,

What does it take to create a course that delivers on its promise and ensures that students get through all of the material? On the 421st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, copywriter and course corrector, Maya Stojkovich, shares her COURSE framework for creating and fixing the programs experts sell in order to get results. There's a ton of crossover with copywriting sales messages, so grab your headphones and let's get to it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Course Corrector The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Why are so many course creators failing when it comes to selling their courses? Or worse, they do sell their courses or memberships or workshops, but the people who buy them don’t finish them. I’ve certainly bought my share of courses with the full intention that I was going to complete the training and the assignments, and they’re still waiting there months… sometimes years later. What’s up with that? Hi I’m Rob Marsh and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I talked with copywriter and course corrector, Maya Stojkovich. Maya is one half of the partership behind the Course Corrector—a program designed to help course creators fix the things that keep course buyers from finishing the work and getting the result they want. The other half of this partnership is Linda Perry who has been on the podcast several times before. On this episode, Maya shared the formula for making sure a course will deliver the promised result and keep students engaged. And smart copywriters will notice some big similarities between what she shared and what we often put into a winning sales message. So stay tuned. Just a quick plug… this episode is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground… the only membership for copywriters focused on helping you build your business skills—the skills that help you attract clients, create services they want to buy, price them effectively, and run a business that’s fully booked and profitable. Does it reallly make a difference? Yes it does. Members tell us its the best investment they’ve ever made in themselves. The training resources, templates, critiques and community are game changers. And you can find out more… even try it risk free for thirty days at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And now, let’s go to our interview with Maya Stojkovich. Hey, Maya, welcome to The Copywriter Club Podcast. Let's start with how you got to where you are. How did you become a copywriter, a teacher, and now a course corrector? Maya Stojkovich: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you so much for having me on. I'm so excited. That is a wonderful question. How I got here, I'd say, is a pretty non-traditional route. Everything about it seemed traditional at first. I went to college. I got an English degree. I actually started off working in politics and that's what I really thought I wanted to do. And then I ultimately recognized that it wasn't the life for me. And so I actually ended up coming home and I was trying to reassess and, you know, I got the chance to actually join the Accelerator, and that was the first course I ever took. And I sat there and was like, this is really something. But there was a piece that was missing. I wasn't fully engaged, but I also like to blame that on being 20 and 21 and not really knowing who I am at that age. And I continued to learn. I took so many courses. That full year, I was just taking course after course. I actually ended up becoming a certified mindset coach. And that really helped shape the rest of my career path. I actually settled down into marketing for a while, and then I up and moved, and I ended up being a paralegal, a teacher, an education programs coordinator. And it seems all over the place, but now sitting where I am as one half of the course corrector, I recognized that my entire path was just setting me up to become this course strategist, to actually dive into the courses that I had taken prior and say, you know, what can I take from this and actually apply it to courses everywhere? Rob Marsh: Yeah, I love that. And obviously, all of the things that you've done have, you know, created, gotten you where you are. That's the way paths work, right? Maya Stojkovich: Right. Rob Marsh: All of us. But of all of those positions, did you have a favorite and some big takeaways from being a teacher, mindset coach, paralegal? I don't know. Maya Stojkovich: Yeah, I know, right? So many. I would say that the most impactful was actually the education programs coordinator. I got to learn what it took to craft this beautiful narrative. I taught environmental sciences to third and fifth graders. So it's a tough audience, but I got to craft this beautiful narrative with these programs about salt marshes, about like forests, about, you know, fiddler crabs. And I had to make it exciting for these kids. I had to get them interested and be like, here's why you should care. And here's why this matters. It is applicable to you in your lives as small children. And it was just this beautiful process, and it gave me so much information about teaching in and of itself that I now have the ability to apply it to courses. Rob Marsh: Yeah, that definitely makes sense. That basically is what you're doing now. So let's talk about what you're doing now. We'll come back to maybe your experience with some of those courses that you were taking earlier. Tell us about the course corrector and what it is, what you guys do. You're working with Linda, obviously. I have immense respect for Linda. I think she's been on the podcast four times maybe over the last seven years, whatever. So absolutely love her to death. But what are you guys doing in the course corrector? Maya Stojkovich: Yeah, absolutely. So the course corrector is, as it sounds, I'm one half of it. I do work with Linda Perry. She is also, fun fact, my mother. Which a lot of people go, what's it like working with your mom? And I absolutely love it. We have very similar brains, but we work completely differently. And I like to say we go on our separate caves when we work and come back together and always find the same conclusion. But what we really do is we dive into courses. And so what sets us apart is that we don't actually always work on the course creation process. While we welcome a bunch of course creators and can help them create their courses, I like to say as preventative measure, so they don't actually bump up into issues in the long run. We work with established course creators who have a course, and their course has gone awry somewhere, and they're not quite sure why. Maybe they have an idea. They can say, maybe my engagement isn't great, my completion rates are down, you know, I've looked at the numbers, or maybe something isn't translating. And they have an idea, but it's that big why that becomes the mystery. And what we do is we actually have a six-point framework. It's called COURSE, unironically. And we dive into a course and we actually look at it holistically and we pull apart the pieces that aren't working and actually help create this transformation for course creators that it's just hard to do by themselves because they know their material, they know their course, they created it. And sometimes you just need that second or third pair of eyes and so we provide that. Rob Marsh: Yeah. I love what you guys are doing, especially as an owner of several courses. And I realize how difficult it can be, especially what you have it set up to then take a step back and say, OK, wait, do we have the right promise here, you know, and and doing all of the things. So can we actually step through the course framework and talk about each of the steps that you guys go through? Maya Stojkovich: Yes, I would absolutely love to. So We start with C, which is clear, identifiable goals. So we're going to look at your course and we're going to say, hey, do you have a clear goal? And usually it's that one goal for the course taker. So you're delivering something, you're promising a transformation. What does that look like? I also always love to mention, hey, you are in your course yourself. Please have some goals for yourself for your course. That's always so important because so many people always get focused on the course taker. And I'm like, put yourself in your course, which that also shows up later. And then we have Rob Marsh: Oh, wait, let me let me stop you right. Let me so I want to ask about that. Because that's actually really interesting. I mean, I would normally be thinking, okay, yeah, the big promise, and we've got to make sure that we deliver on this transformation. When you say we should have goals for ourselves. What do you mean by that? Are you talking about financial goals, enrollment goals? Or is it more tied to the course content itself? Maya Stojkovich: I think it can be all, every, both. I really don't think it's exclusive. I often find that with overarching course goals, you're really going to focus on engagement, how many people you want in your course, money, you know, what you're bringing in. And so that tends to be the focus. But can you focus on what do I want to get out of my course content-wise? Absolutely. That can be a goal. Rob Marsh: And maybe there's also some relationships that you're developing with the students in a course. You know, there may be some things we can build goals around there, too. OK. Maya Stojkovich: OK, so O. Which is outcomes and pathways for success, which I this is my favorite part of our course framework because I love pathways. I think they're just the key to success for any course out there. Yeah. So that's O. Rob Marsh: So, and so how should we be thinking about pathways? Is it simply, uh, you know, if I'm going to draw this out, I'm thinking, okay, module one leads to module two that, I mean,

Marketing consultant, Leticia Collins is our guest for the 420th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. She's an expert in community-based email list growth, so it's no wonder she added 4300 people to her list in less than a week. Want to know how she did it? Then this episode is for you. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Leticia's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: The money is in the list, or that’s what we’re told. And before you can work on getting some of that money out of the list and into your business, you need a list. If your list is small, you need a bigger list. If your list is full of the wrong people, you need to find the right people. As a business owner, one of your big challenges is your list. And knowing that, would you like to hear how you can add hundreds, maybe even thousands of qualified names to your email list in as little as a week? Hi I’m Rob Marsh and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I talked with marketing strategist Leticia Collins. Tish is a successful marketer who has worked hard to grow her list. And in this interview, she shared how she added 4,300 subscribers to her email list in one week. And triped her revenue in the process. If you want to grow an email list full of potential clients for your business, this episode is for you. Before we get to that though… you hear me tell you about several resources that we’ve put together to help you build and grow a writing business. I’m going to quickly list a few of them here so you can get the help you need… we have a free facebook group called The Copywriter Club. You can find us on Facebook and request that we add you to the group where you’ll find seven years of threads about all kinds of copywriting and business questions.  Obviously you know about this podcast. You’re listening to it right now and there are more than 400 interviews with successful copywriters and other experts in our backlist. Once you’ve listened to this episode, scroll through to find interviews with people like Seth Godin, Jay Abraham, Jereshia Hawk, Joanna Wiebe, Todd Brown, Kennedy and so many others. Honestly, it’s the best free library of copy, content and business ideas that you’ll find anywhere. And it’s at your fingertips. Take a minute now to subscribe on your favorite podcast player so you don’t miss another episode. And right now you can get our free, 36 page mini-book called How to Find Clients when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient . I guarantee you’ll find at least one and probably 5-10 ideas you can use to find a client for your business. We’re here to help you build a business, so be sure to take advantage of all the free resources we’ve provided for you. And now, let’s go to our interview with Tish Collins. Welcome to the podcast, Tish. I want to start with the question we always start with, which is how did you become a content creator, a digital marketing strategist, business mentor, all of the things? Leticia Collins: Hi, well firstly thank you so much for having me on, it's so lovely to be here. And I got started in business, I started my business back in 2019 and I never really saw myself becoming a business owner at all, I kind of fell into it. It started when I went to university, I studied journalism and creative writing and one of our assignments, one of the very first assignments was for us to start a blog. I had always wanted to do that. So I was really excited about it. I started my blog and it was going to be like a portfolio for when I became a journalist. Obviously that didn't happen. Um, but what did happen is I began to grow my blog. I grew my Instagram. I started working with brands and I kind of started my first business that way. And then after a few years I began to get some questions about how I was getting paid to work with brands and growing my Instagram so fast. And so I thought, you know what, there is a bit of a market here. There's people who want to learn how to do this kind of thing. So I started my first proper business as an influencer coach. And I did that for a little while. And then I kind of started to realize that actually working with brands is great, but it's not a sustainable form of income. And so I started teaching these people how to actually create their own products and services and how to monetize that way. And it just kind of snowballed into what I am now, which is a marketing strategist for online business owners. Rob Marsh: I love that. I want to know a little bit more about the whole influencer coach thing, because obviously there are a lot of people out there who would like to be influencers. There are a lot of copywriters, marketers, freelancers who maybe they don't want to be influencers, but they want to be able to do the things that a lot of influencers do, that is grow their audience and share their expertise. So maybe just as in a couple of minutes, you can tell us, what does it take to really be that kind of an online presence and almost influencer? Leticia Collins: Yeah absolutely um I think I mean the main thing about influencers and content creators is that they are a personal brand right so it's a lot of sharing your personality like behind the scenes of your life and what you're up to and I think that actually having a background in that really helped me when it came to build my business because I already had a personal brand, I already knew how to grow that and so I was able to lean into that with my business and really connect with my audience. So yeah I think if you're wanting to be an influencer content creator then it's definitely about building a strong personal brand and just not being afraid to show up and share like the real and raw version of you because that's what people really like. It's the authenticity and the things that people can relate to. Rob Marsh: I sort of question this a little bit because there are a lot of people who don't want to share that, you know, behind the scenes kind of stuff or be raw and vulnerable. And I'm sure that you don't need to share everything, but is that really a requirement or can you build an online brand without going so deep in your personal life? Leticia Collins: I don't think that you need to share everything. There's a lot that I don't share, but it's a lot of like the small snippets. So speaking about business owners specifically, it's the simple like, what are you doing today? Like what's going on behind the scenes in your business? Are you recording a podcast episode? Are you working on a product? Like that kind of thing. And also just sharing your personality. And that doesn't have to be like, uncomfortable it can be within your copy you know your writing you don't have to get on video all the time but within your writing just injecting your personality and kind of like words that you say quite often or things that are going to make you relatable and just not sounding robotic right? Rob Marsh: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Because again, yeah, I don't want to share everything. But I do think that there's a way to talk about the things that we do in a more authentic or raw way than just, you know, posting up, you know, lead magnets or whatever. Leticia Collins: Yeah, no, definitely. Rob Marsh: So let's talk about how your business works today then, because you've got a couple of different things that you do and a few different services. Who's your typical client and what's the kind of work that you're doing today? Leticia Collins: So I typically work with online business owners, so coaches, service providers, and course creators. And I help them with their marketing and business as a whole, but I'm specifically kind of looking at helping them create a digital product or course so that they can, so they don't have to rely on one-on-one services all the time and trading time for money so they can kind of make I don't want to say passive income, but maybe more like leveraged income where they're not having to show up all the time. And I also help them to grow their audience so that they have someone, their ideal client to sell that offer to. Rob Marsh: So let's talk about offers first, because again, this is the work that a lot of the content creators and copywriters who are listening right now do for their clients or they want to do for themselves. What are the first steps? If I want to build my own product or have my own digital products to sell, where should I start? And maybe there's a process for doing this properly. Leticia Collins: I think it does help if you've worked one-on-one with clients for a while before so that you know what the process is yourself so you have like your own defined process and then kind of just pay attention to what you're always teaching again and again. Is there something that you could actually package up and put your framework into its own product or course so that you can then market that to more than just one person at a time. So I think that's the best way to get started is to pull from your experience. And as you notice, you know, the same thing coming up over and over again, you're going to realize that there is actually a market for this and be able to sell that in a one to many format instead. Rob Marsh: I'd love to get your thoughts on this because I've seen this happen over and over where somebody like, let's say it's a copywriter, uh, they've been doing copywriting for a while. They've had some success in their niche and they think, Oh, I'm going to start selling templates to copywriters. And, uh, you know, maybe they sell a few, but it doesn't go quite as well compared to Maybe a similar copywriter who does the same thing, but instead of selling templates to other people doing the same work as them, they sell templates within their niche to business owners who need this thing.