The Copywriter Club Podcast

In this session, Ross O’Lochlainn, a conversion engineer and coach, discusses the transition from client work to creating irresistible offers. He shares insights on validating new ideas and reveals his journey to securing initial clients. The conversation also touches on the impact of AI in marketing, balancing creativity with automation, and the importance of mentorship for growth. Ross emphasizes the need for strong audience connection and effective communication strategies to succeed in the freelance landscape.

Esai Arasi, a savvy copywriter and agency owner, advocates a minimal approach to social media. He discusses why focusing on genuine relationships can yield better results than frequent posting. By sharing strategies for effective client engagement, he emphasizes understanding client needs and nurturing connections. Esai also highlights the importance of storytelling in fostering engagement and how mentorship plays a vital role in business success, urging listeners to rethink their social media strategies for lasting impact.

Finding a "real" job isn't easy. But more copywriters and content writers are interested in trying. In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with Copy Chief Matt Snyder who has hired lots of copywriters over the past couple of years. He shared the mistakes copywriters are making and what it takes to get the attention of a hiring manager. Even if you don't want a "real" job, what Matt shares in this episode will help you connect with high-paying clients and land more work. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Matt's newsletter Matt's LinkedIn The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Want to land a real job as a copywriter or content writer? It’s not easy. But help is on the way. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Most of the listeners to this podcast are freelancers or contract writers. If you’re like them, you generally work on projects or retainers for a variety of clients. And you’re good at it. But some writers crave the stability that comes with a regular job—either part-time or full-time—with an actual employer paying wages and maybe even providing benefits. A handful of freelancers I’ve worked with over the years have dipped their toes into the corporate world to work primarily for a single client, or for those who are looking for part-time jobs, have landed work that provides some security and regular income to go along with the unpredictabilty of freelancing.  But finding those jobs isn’t easy. They’re out there for sure, but within hours of a copywriting or content writing job posting on LinkedIn or any other job board, the hiring managers receive hundreds of applications. Getting found in that slush pile isn’t easy—even for the very best writers. Recently in The Copywriter Underground, I invited a friend of mine who worked for decades as a job placement specialist for creatives, to share her best advice for copywriters looking for “real” jobs. That training is inside The Underground now. When I announced we would be hosting that training, another copywriter, Matt Snyder, reached out to offer his advice. Matt is the Head Copywriter at a digital agency and works with a team of five or six writers. He hires a lot. And he sees a ton of applications, resumés and other creative attempts to get his attention. So when he offered, I suggested we record our discussion and share it here on the podcast. That’s what this episode is. Now, I know I said this is about getting hired to real job with a company. But everything Matt shares is applicable to getting hired by freelance clients as well. I think every copywriter, every content writer, and every freelancer writer who listens to this episode will get a lot from what Matt has to say. So stay tuned. As usual, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. We’re talking about getting work today, so I should probably mention the resources available in The Underground that will help you do that. Starting with the workshop with my friend, Jessica, the placement specialist. Her advice will make a difference if you’re applying for what we tend to refer to as “real” jobs. We also have workshops from experts like Laura Belgray who shares how you can stop waiting in line and “duck under” the velvet ropes holding you back. And Parris Lampropoulos who shared the exact pitch he used to get his first five clients, then how he went on to double his income every year for the next five years—do the math, that’s a lot. There’s also our in-house training about ways to find clients and an entire course on sales. Plus dozens of other workshops, templates, copy critiques, monthly coaching, and more. Learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, my interview with Matt Snyder… Matt, Welcome to the podcast. I was checking our back episodes because I swear we've had you on the podcast before and turns out we haven't. So we should have probably had you before, but I'm glad that we've waited because what we're going to talk about today kind of came out of a lot of things that have happened since the last time you and I were even on a call together. So this should be pretty good. But let's start with your story. How did you even become a copywriter? Matt Snyder: Um, great question. Uh, I feel like I've lived many lives, so it's kind of hard to turn it down. But, um, I, I always like to say my love affair with writing online or publishing anything online started with a Zynga account, like way back. Rob Marsh: That's a long time ago. Matt Snyder: Yeah. Way back in like 2003. So, Um, like right when I got into college, I was like, I'm real. I, I kind of was dabbling into journaling and I thought that this online medium was going to be kind of cool. Um, so that was like, I think blog spot was maybe starting. And so I just started publishing stuff on Zynga and it was ridiculous. I don't even bother looking cause I don't even remember what my account was or anything. Um, it was, it was ridiculous, but I just, I feel like a lot of trial and error started there, but that's kind of when I realized that like, I was, I kind of had a knack for writing. And then, um, a lot of my professors in school were like, Hey, you're pretty good at writing. And I was like, great, but I didn't want to go that route. Uh, I was like, I'm gonna go into ministry. That's why I went to school for undergrad, um, left. And, uh, decided that, you know, I wanted to do mission work, didn't know where I want to go. So I kind of did this, this, uh, year long mission trip adventure thing. And they gave everybody a blog, uh, posts or like a blog to, to document their journey on or whatever, and their thoughts. And so I did that and, uh, it kind of took off. And even the, the organization was like, Hey, you're, you're pretty good at this. So when you come back, do you want to work for us? and kind of help us market the programs. And I was like, sure. So that's what I did. When I got back, I mean, it was great because when I was away, that's when the market collapsed in 2008. And so I got back and I kind of had a weird job. But I'm a self-taught marketer and that's kind of what I did. I just read every book, talked to everybody I could, and it was just trial and error. And so I kind of fell in love with marketing that way. Did a lot of blog writing, content writing. Um, and yeah, just learning in and out of, uh, stuff for nonprofits, but then on the side, I started freelancing and I was like, I think I'm going to help other people do the same thing. And so I did content writing, uh, SEO development stuff, started writing for websites, mostly nonprofits, um, dabbled in and out over the years. I've been traveling a lot. And then, uh, lived a life, got married, had, you know, a lot of stuff. And then I got a job at a church, this was after grad school, got a job at a church as a communications director. And all that was great. I thought I wanted to go back into church ministry. I'd been out for a while. I ended up being like, I got to get out of this. It just wasn't, it wasn't for me. Um, nothing against that environment or that world for anybody, but, uh, I started freelancing on the side full-time and then, uh, or mostly full-time and kind of pivoted into the freelance email marketing. Got into that world. I got connected with y'all at The Copywriter Club. Um, I joined The Accelerator program. Because I was like, I'm going to take my business seriously. And it really helped me take off, which is great. So yeah, I really pivoted hard into copyright. I can tell you the, not the date exactly, but I can tell you exactly where I was when I was like, I'm going to go hard into copyrighting full time. Uh, my wife and I took a trip to Tulum. I think this was like in 2006, 2016, 2017, something like that. And I was sitting on a rooftop of this place we were staying in Tulum overlooking the jungle. And I was journaling. I was like, I really want to pursue copywriting full time and talk to my wife about it. And she was just like, sounds great. Go for it. So. No, we didn't have kids. We had a dog. We didn't have a mortgage at that time. So it wasn't a big deal. And so there was just a lot of freedom to take risks. And I did it. And I mean, I've done well myself. So yeah, freelance. Y'all really helped me set me up for success with my freelance business, which I kind of stopped viewing as a freelance business and just as a business. Which is a great mental shift, by the way, for anybody listening. And then I ended up, an agency slid into my DMs one day. Grace Baldwin, who's an alum of my Accelerator program and Copywriter Club stuff, she connected this person with me and said, Matt might be interested in this job. And so my DMs got on call with them. It was the end of 2021, I think. And it's that time of year, it's Q4, business slows down and it's like, you kind of get bored. And I was kind of stressed about, you know, will my retainer clients renew for another year kind of thing. Rob Marsh: Right. Matt Snyder: And, uh, I was like, you know what, I'll give it six months and see, I had, I had to like, what's supposed to be a 15 minute call with this agency Homestead, uh, studios actually where I work now. And, uh, I was like, that 15 minute call turned into, um, an hour. And then I just really jived with the partners that I was on the call with and I was like, I'll give it six months. And so we're over three years later, I'm still there. So it worked out well, I went from being just an email copywriter, writing on you know, six, seven, eight accounts to now I'm the director of copy and oversee the entire copy department across the whole agency. So, uh, it's, it's a lot of fun to have a whole team, um, get to really help people grow, not just their craft and their skill, but grow as professionals with people. And it's, it's just so much fun.

Writing Video Sales Letters is an art. It's not enough to simply record someone reading a regular sales page. They depend more on stories and keeping listeners engaged because you can't afford to lose your viewer's attention. In the 436th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with Svet Dimitrov about this challenge and he shared why you need to take a different approach when writing VSLs. We covered a lot more than that, so click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Svet's LinkedIn Svet's Facebook The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  If you applied for 200 different projects or jobs, each time sending a new cover letter with your pitch, I imagine you would learn a thing or two about what works and what doesn’t work in the application process. That’s what Svet Dimitrov, my guest on this episode of the podcast, did. But that’s not even the reason I asked Svet to join me on the podcast. I heard another copywriter talking about how Svet is one of the best VSL copywriters in the world today—VSLs are video sales letters and they’re different from regular sales letters because you can’t afford to lose your viewer’s attention ever. We talk about that in this episode and what you can do to improve your own VSL writing skills. If you want to write VSLs, don’t skip this episode. We also talked about Svet’s contrarian advice that copywriters—especially copywriters who are just starting out—should not have a website. Obviously, that’s not the way most of us think. Websites are there to build credibility and help clients see the various ways we can help them. But Svet argues, and I think I agree, that there is a better approach that connects personally with your prospects. You may want to stick around to here what Svet does. As you might expect, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. I’ve completely rebuilt the content vault to make it more useable and useful and in the process I’ve added more than 70 differnt  workshops to it. And there are even more coming.  Workshops taught by expert copywriters like Parris Lampropoulos, Joanna Weibe, Stefan Georgi, Jack Forde, Chanti Zak, Laura Belgray and dozens of others. And it’s not just copywriters, we’ve got marketing experts teaching how to build funnels, how to market using tools like Linkedin and Pinterest, how to put yourself in the right mindset to succeed and so much more. And that’s just the workshops. There are dozens of templates, a community of like-minded writers holding each other accountable, and monthly coaching with me. It’s time you joined us inside. Learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And now, my interview with Svet Dimitrov… Svet, I'm thrilled to be able to chat with you. I'd love to start just by hearing how you got where you are. How did you become a copywriter? Before we started recording, I mentioned that I've heard your name because people have said you are one of the best VSL copywriters in the world right now. So how'd you get there? Svet Dimitrov: Thank you first for inviting me, Rob. It's a pleasure to be here. And yeah, my story goes back, I would say, probably Probably by the time I was doing my master's degree actually, I was really struggling. That was 2009-2010 to finish my master's thesis. And I did read, so this was in the era when you couldn't find a lot of stuff on Google. So I had to sift through a ton of pages, I think I went to like the 10th page of Google, which probably nobody goes there these days, just to find, just to do research. But I think that's when I really started to understand that research is really important. I appreciate it, love the game, although I was struggling to find a good way to express my thoughts in my master thesis. And I think I sift through like maybe 10 physical books. Then I mentioned research on Google. I think I probably went through more than 100 PDFs that I found online and all that stuff.  And it was kind of a crazy couple of months just doing research and research and not getting anywhere, which was frustrating. But then there was this mindset shift that I said, hey, if I'm going to say, hey, I can't do it, I won't be able to do it, right? But when I said, hey, I need to do it and I will do it, things started to get better. Um, so after I finished my master's degree, I started applying. It was actually in European policies and politics. So I started applying for different positions in the European Union related to politics, management and all that stuff. And I couldn't land any, and I probably sent like more than a hundred different applications. Most of those applications were not only consisting of a CV, but also a cover letter.  So I wrote a ton of cover letters. And later, like years later, I realized that has helped me a lot to master my skills in writing and also in persuasion, because when you're writing a cover letter, you have to convince the other party to hire you, right? So I realized that that has helped me a lot, but I needed a few years to really understand that I was not cut out to be an employee for first of all the European Union's different institutions. And I also realized that writing all those cover letters and stuff was really helpful to put in the reps, because I was probably writing every single day. I was changing stuff here and there. Obviously, I wasn't writing a completely new cover letter, but I was constantly trying to change and see how it's going.  And then a few years later, I had an office job which was not related to what I was studying, and I didn't enjoy it at all, so I quit it after a week and a half. And since I had some money saved, and just like a month before I quit my job, I actually met a Chinese girl at a hotel while I was traveling with my family doing a European trip. And I met a Chinese girl and I chatted with her a lot and then she invited me to go to China. Long story short, a few months after that I went to China and I really enjoyed it there. And I was like, hey, maybe I can start learning some Chinese and find a job in China. I still wasn't 100% certain I was going to do a freelance career, and I had no idea what copywriting was. But since I've already studied and learned English and then French, I was like, maybe I can start studying some Chinese.  Obviously, I wouldn't master Chinese because it's a completely different, much harder language. But still it would help me to land a job and a few months after that I landed unpaid internship although it was. It was a full-time job, I would say, in China. And while I didn't enjoy it very much when I went there, because I realized it was very, very different from what it was supposed to be, I enjoyed living there. I enjoyed connecting with the people. And there's a saying in Bulgaria that one year abroad is like two years at home. Well, I would say that when you go to China or probably another country in Asia, since they're so much different from, let's say, Europe, Western Europe and the US, I would say that one year in China is like three or four years at home.  So I spent only three months, but it felt like a year or more. So when I came back, I was like, I definitely don't want to find a job, but since I had so many different experiences and impressions from China, I decided to create a website to write about like a travel blog, although I was also writing about lifestyle, healthy living, healthy eating. And since I knew that I wouldn't be able to support myself with a new website, a new blog, I also started looking for content writing jobs first. But I use my website as a portfolio. Obviously, it's not a necessity nowadays to have a website. And I would probably even advise people not to create a website at first. This is my experience, and I used that, and I think it actually played quite well. And I started lending a few jobs here and there about content writing, and then, I'd say a year and a half later, I started exploring copywriting and I realized it's not just like copy and pasting words on a google document is completely different and it requires a lot of persuasion. Most of the time it's much better paid than writing articles for other companies. That's the short story in like five minutes. Rob Marsh: Yeah, how you shifted over. So let's go back to just the experience of writing these hundreds of cover letters. I'd love to know what you learned from that experience or what tips you have for writing a good cover letter. And the reason I ask this is there's been over the last few months, a little bit of a move for some copywriters to try to find a real job, either a part-time job or a full-time job, so that they have some steady income as the economy's been a little less predictable, things like AI and some of the layoffs that have happened over the last couple of years. So, uh, but they're struggling. They're struggling to find those jobs just as much as they're struggling to find freelance work. It's hard to make those connections. So what did you learn from that experience that really helped you sell yourself when you were reaching out with cover letters to resumés? Svet Dimitrov: Well, I would say that I learned how to get to the point as quickly as possible. So in the first one or two paragraphs, I would try to grab their attention and then also try to share what are my biggest strengths and why they should hire me. Obviously, I wrote very, very bad cover letters at first. And some of them were starting with a very weird question and some of them were like trying to express my wealth of vocabulary, which I think is something that you should never do when you're writing copy, unless you're writing for, let's say, Harvard Professors for example probably they would appreciate flexing your vocabulary.  But I think, yeah, definitely,

It's pretty common to hear copywriters recommend that you study old sales pages and even sales emails, but what about old magazine ads? The kind that are printed on paper in actual periodicals? Today, where so much advertising happens online or in your social media feed, Ad writing is a bit of a lost art form. But that doesn't mean we can't learn from it. In the 435th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I interviewed Lewis Folkard who breaks down old ads for his newsletter readers. And he shared what copywriters have to learn from his approach. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Lewis' Website The Olive Ad Breakdown The Silk Cut ad The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Copywriters seem to revere old books by Eugene Schwartz and Vic Schwab. But what about old ads? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. If you’ve been a copywriter for more than a few weeks, you’ve probably heard other more experienced copywriters mention books like Breakthrough Advertising by Eugene Schwartz, How to Write an Advertisement by Victor Schwab or Tested Advertising Methods by John Caples. They make up a large part of the official cannon of copywriting. In fact, David Ogilvy once said no one should be allowed to write a single word of copy until they had finished reading Caple’s book seven times. Of course there are new books that ought to be added… books by Joe Sugarman, Ann Handley and Matthew Dix.  In addition to books, there are a lot of copywriters who like to study old sales pages. They create swipe files full of them. I do this. My swipe file has more than 1,000 differnent sales pages I’ve collected over the last decade. Some copywriters even suggest you hand write sales pages as part of your learning. I don’t go that far, but I think you can learn a lot by studying the persuasion techniques that copywriters have used in their work. But what about ads? One page with an image, headline, and a few lines of copy?  Are they worth studying? And what can we learn from them? My guest on this episode is Lewis Folkard. Lewis has made a bit of a name for himself by picking old print ads from advertising award books, analyzing them, and writing about why they are effective or not. Lewis’ breakdowns are more than interesting reading, they’re mini-lessons on copywriting, attention-getting and persuasion. He told me why he does it and how it’s impacted his business in this interview. Stick around to hear what he had to say. As you might expect, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. I’ve mentioned that I’ve been rebuilding the content vault and adding a ton of additional workshops to it. Workshops taught be expert copywriters like Parris Lampropoulos, Joanna Weibe, Stefan Georgi, Jack Forde, Chanti Zak, Laura Belgray and dozens of others. And it’s not just copywriters, we’ve got marketing experts teaching how to build funnels, how to market using tools like Linkedin and Pinterest, how to put yourself in the right mindset to succeed and so much more. And that’s just the workshops. There are dozens of templates, a community of like-minded writers holding each other accountable, and monthly coaching with me. It’s time you joined us inside. Learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And now, my interview with Lewis Folkard… Lewis, welcome to the podcast. I would love to hear your story and how you became a copywriter. Lewis Folkard: Okay, well, I mean, I guess a lot of copywriters say very similar things in the sense that I feel like I've always had an interest in people and communications. I mean, some of the earlier nonfiction books that I read were kind of about human psychology and communications. I think there was a How to Win Friends and Influence People and another one by Brian Tracy, I believe. But I was young and just always enjoyed learning about how the human mind works and how we can kind of translate that or how not to say how we can, but how that translates into behavior. But yeah, a career into marketing to copywriting and marketing started. Uh, I guess alongside uni, uh, I graduated with a degree in materials engineering and had every intention of following that path. Um, and. I don't know, really, I don't know how or what the, the kind of compelling idea was to, to leave and to start marketing, but it kind of happened. And of course, when it had a small business online selling vintage jewelry and yeah, I sort of helped him out as best I could. and end up discovering copywriting and haven't really looked back since, to be fair. It's sort of scratched itches that I didn't realize I had. I've kind of always been more sort of mathsy, so to speak. Numbers, binary answers, right or wrong, you know, this either works or it doesn't. And heading into copywriting in this kind of world was like, well, actually two opposing ideas can both be true. Uh, and it's kind of challenged me in ways that I never really understood, but I really enjoy those kinds of challenges. There's obviously loads of paradoxes in human behavior, especially consumer behavior. So. Rob Marsh: A lot of copywriters come from different backgrounds. You're the first person I've talked to. It doesn't mean you're the first copywriter that's had a materials engineering background, but that is a big jump. Engineering to selling jewelry is your first client, but marketing, copywriting. Are there skills that you learned in materials engineering as an engineer that are directly applicable to what you do as a copywriter? That's a good question. Lewis Folkard: I think a lot of materials engineering is like looking at components that have broken and you then have to kind of find out why they've broken and how you can not help. So they don't break in the future, basically. Um, so reverse engineering. those kind of concepts, I think have always stuck with me. That's something that kind of pulled me into that in the first place. Um, and it's definitely something I do now, especially with like rewriting old ads and sort of looking at how they work. Um, it's kind of sort of leaned into that a lot more and understanding how some of the best performing pieces of copy work it's, and help me sort of reverse engineer and apply those to my own pieces, I guess. Rob Marsh: So you started working for your friend, selling vintage jewelry. How did you turn that now into a business? You got the first thing done, probably for not a lot of money, I'm guessing. How do you leverage a free project into now lending clients and doing the kind of work that you want to do? Lewis Folkard: Uh, okay. So, well, I, I kind of did it on the side. So I did follow the materials engineering path for probably around six months after graduating. Uh, and I was sort of doing this on the side and helping out in the evenings as best I could. And yeah, he's running ads on, on Facebook and Instagram. And I sort of wanted to find out, how can I help these ads perform better? As probably no surprise, first client, you're a bit like a deer in headlights. You don't know what's going on and everything. And yeah, that's where I ended up finding copywriting, in particular, Joe Sugarman's copywriting handbook. And yeah, I sort of stuck at the job for a little while. And I guess it's kind of the case of a lot of things. When you go on to a path that you're kind of in control of, you're like your own sort of freelancer. You're in charge of what you earn, effectively. it seemed a lot more kind of fulfilling and inspiring and exciting. So I ended up leaving that job. It wasn't because I didn't like the job, but it was just, it was more stimulating doing my own thing. And yeah, I remember the first day that I sort of left and woke up and was like, well, what do I do today? Kind of thinking like, how is this going to work? How am I going to get money from this kind of thing? And yeah, I ended up, I actually led into, again, at the ads that I still look at now, Um, it was like, well, I need to kind of keep learning. I'm, I'm certainly no, no copywriter at the minute and just get reading books. And then I sort of found old pieces of direct mail and sort of thought, Oh, that technique looks familiar. I've seen that somewhere else. And that kind of spurred on the idea to, well, why don't I sort of look at these in more detail and throw myself into the shoes of these copywriters and see why they're saying and doing what they're doing to effectively help me do the same thing. Um, and yeah, it's a practice that I've continued to do since. Rob Marsh: And were you cold pitching clients? Were you reaching out to friends and family? I mean, this is really the big challenge for a lot of copywriters. How do you find the clients? Lewis Folkard: I was in some ways fortunate and in some ways unfortunate. There was a couple of local networking events that I went to. I met a few people. And a few months after that, nothing directly happened immediately after that. that, um, that event and then COVID happened and everybody started to look to move things online. And I was sort of positioning myself as like a, an ads copywriter. And when everyone was sort of like, well, I need to find someone who can help me bring my business online. And I happened to be there with a few touch points. I met a few other people, um, and a local agency. And that sort of gave me the first level of experience I needed. And it's kind of grown from there really few agencies and yeah. Rob Marsh: How does that work working with the agencies? Again, this is something that we talk about a lot in our programs that agencies can be great clients. Obviously, you make the connection, but what does the workflow feel like? Are you asking them for work from time to time? Are they just dropping things in your lap? What is that whole process? Lewis Folkard: I mean,

Everyone starts from scratch. But what if you had to earn six figures a year from the very first day you were in business? That's the challenge Jon Morrow had. He's my guest for the 434th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. I asked him about how he did it. We also talked about how he is using A.I. in his business (his approach is pretty good, which is what you'd expect given he's been using it for more than ten years). We also talked about what he would do if he had to start over... he suggested a strategy I'd never heard before. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: SmartBlogger The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Would you be willing to work for free—for two full years—in exchange for a simple favor? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. You already know this but succeeding as a content writer or a copywriter is not easy. And building a reputation when you’re just starting out is a huge challenge. But what if you knew that you needed to earn six figures a year, beginning on the day you launch your business. No time to ramp up. No time to figure out client acquisition. No time to create and test the products and services you offer. You have no choice but to succeed at a high-level from day one. What would you do? That’s the challenge Content Strategist and founder of SmartBlogger, Jon Morrow, faced. But he did it. He succeeded in creating a six-figure business from day one. Jon shares how he did it and why it was necessary in the first few minutes of our interview. And once you hear what he says, you may find yourself without an excuse for accomplishing big things in your business. Because if Jon can do it with the limitations he faced, you can almost certainly do it even if the world is conspiring against you. I didn’t expect this when we set up the interview, but what Jon shares about how he uses A.I. in his business, to write sales letters, create courses, and run his businesses will either frighten you or inspire you to step up your writing game. His approach is impressive. As you listen to this episode, ask yourself these questions: What are you willing to give up in order to get what you really want? How are you diversifying and changing your business in the face of A.I.? What can you do differently to make sure your approach to email actually makes money for your business or your clients? And what can you do to create more connection and community with the people you want to work with? But before we get to all that, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. we’ve been rebuilding our content vault and adding a ton of additional workshops to it. These new workshops are jammed full of practical ideas for building your writing business, creating new products like VIP days, lead magnets and more, getting attention and building your authority, showing up on social media with the right content to attract your ideal clients and lots more. The more templates and training we add to The Underground, the more I realize there is a crazy amount of valuable resources, in addition to monthly coaching and regular copy critiques ready for you to use. And you can get immediate access for less than you spend on a dinner out with your family. Learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, my interview with Jon Morrow… Jon, welcome to the podcast. As I mentioned just before we started recording, you've been on my list for a long time to have as a guest. I think I've followed you or known of you for close to 15, maybe even more years than that. We'd like to start with your story. So I'm guessing that there might be one or two people in our audience who don't know who you are. So tell us how you got to where you are. Jon Morrow: So yeah, my story has many chapters. So the thing about me that's unusual is that I have muscular dystrophy and I can't really move any part of my body except my face. I use Dragon, naturally speaking to type. I have people that take care of me around the clock. Despite that, I mean, I've built several successful businesses. I've written tons and tons of copies. And it hasn't really held me back at all. So that's the first piece that if you're listening to the audio, you wouldn't be able to hear me being nervous probably, except for my voice is a little scratchy. That's one of the symptoms. But yeah, that's a big part of my life. And then my career really got started when I went to work with a blog called CopyBlogger. That used to be huge. When I left Copyblogger, it was 35 million pages a month. A lot of the best writers in the world worked there. And I started out as a writer, eventually worked as an editor. and then started also learning and mastering copy while I was there. My first mentor was Brian Clark. My mentor after that was Neil Patel for a little while. After that, Frank Kern for a little while. I've worked with a lot of people and really been blessed to learn from the best of the best. Rob Marsh: One of the things that I love about your story is how you actually launched your own business. You know, as copywriters, we're always thinking about offers and how to sell them. And you made an offer to Brian Clark at Copyblogger that to me is off the charts valuable for him. Would you mind just sharing that story? Because I think a lot of people don't get started. They have excuses, you know, all of the reasons why they can't do something. Obviously, that doesn't work here, you know, if you've succeeded, obviously, you know, excuses aren't enough, but you did something pretty original that made Brian take you on and then really launched your career. Jon Morrow: Yes, I was in the bad spot where I was dependent on Medicaid to pay my medical bills. It was about at the time 150 grand a year of medical bills that they were paying. But the limitation was they limited your income. You have to be in poverty to receive the service. So I couldn't earn more than $800 a month. So I had to figure out a way out of that trap. What it meant was I couldn't gradually scale up my income. I had to go from $800 a month and then immediately flip to $600 a month. And how do you do that? So I made a brand new deal that I would work with them and edit, hopefully, full-time for two years. And at the end of it, I would ask him for a favor, and he did not say no. And that was the deal. And the favor that I asked was that I wanted to email all of the subscribers to Copyblogger and tell them I was launching an agency and to endorse it. And that was it. That's all I wanted for two years of work. And Brian did it. It was the only time he ever endorsed anyone. And I had my 500 clients overnight. I literally couldn't help everyone who was coming to me. Rob Marsh: Did you know you were going to make that request when you started, you know, the two years? Or was it, hey, there's just this favor I'm going to ask later? Jon Morrow: I didn't know. Yeah. Rob Marsh: That, yeah, to me, that story is, I mean, in one instance, it's great faith in your ability to, you know, figure something out and just knowing that you had the time to do it, but also in having Brian there to make good on that promise, which, yeah, I mean, sending you out to the entire client list of Copyblogger, I can't think of a writer who wouldn't want that kind of a thing. Jon Morrow: Yeah. And I mean, I guess there was, he had enough confidence in me to say, okay, I accept the deal. And I had enough trust in him because he always, everyone around him—he treated them well. So it wasn't, I wasn't really worried about, is he going to screw me over? because he never screwed anybody over. Everyone around him was happy to work with him. And because of that, we made a deal. And it really, one thing I would point out to anyone who's just getting started, do you know that your reputation is infinitely more valuable than getting paid on a contract? I'm not saying you shouldn't do both, but if you had to choose between accelerating your reputation and accelerating your bank account, choose your reputation over that. Rob Marsh: Yeah, really, really good advice. Did you launch SmartBlogger? Did you launch that at that time or had that been already going while you were writing for Brian? Jon Morrow: So, the order was I worked for Brian, then I did consulting and agency work for about a year. And I worked for him until he was one of my clients from my email. I helped Neil launch a blog called Kissmetrics. And we went from zero to a quarter million views a month in 16 days. And when I did that, I just looked at myself and I was like, why do you do this for other people and not yourself? You're obviously going to do it. So I launched Smartblogger. Neil promoted it. Brian promoted it. And I had 13,000 email subscribers before I even started the business. Rob Marsh: Wow. Again, reputation and relationships. Yeah. So what does your business look like today? Jon Morrow: So, it's been through several stages. For a long time, it was my only business, and it grew up to 16 employees at its peak. There is a murder there. And we monetized by teaching classes on freelance writing of all types. And we had 70,000 or more students go through our programs. And it was the dominant writing brand and still is today. for a long time. Nowadays freelance writing is changing because of AI. And because of that, I've diversified into other businesses, other offers. Now I work a lot with course creators because I've made over $15 million from selling out on courses. So that's another business that I have. I'm also an active investor. But SmartBlogger still exists. Now we have four employees. And it's really just passive income for me at this point. Everything is automated. Rob Marsh: The other businesses are less passive. That's where you're spending all of your time. Yeah.

One of the biggest challenges writers face today—and it's a repeated theme on the podcast—is getting noticed by clients and prospects. In the 433rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with Content Strategist Erica Schneider about how you can cut the fluff and get noticed by the people you want to work with. This is a good one, you won't want to miss. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Erica's Website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Transcript: Rob Marsh:  What to get noticed? Want to stand out? Want clients to find you instead of the other way around? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. A lot of the conversations on this podcast focus on the problem of getting noticed… standing out from the crowd of a million other writers—many of whom are willing to work for a lot less than you, some of whom, though hopefully not many, are simply better writers than you. There are lots of ways to do it… posting content on social media platforms, showing up at events, creating podcasts and video channels on still more platforms, building an email list… the many ways of getting noticed goes on and on. And yet… many of us, maybe most of us, still struggle to break though. There’s some unfairness in the idea that the most successful copywriters aren’t necessarily the very best writers or persuaders… they’re often the best at getting and keeping the attention of the clients they want to work with. So how do you become the writer who gets the attention and the clients. Often it comes down to creating content that is positioned to attract your clients on the platforms where they spend their time. And to share the best ideas for creating that content, my guest on today’s episode is Erica Schneider. We talked about a lot of ideas and insights to try in your own business—everthing from the mindset shift you need to make related to your personal brand and how to think differently about content in the age of growing competition and A.I. to Erica’s favorite hook frameworks and how to use them and why you absolutely need an email list even if you don’t plan to ever send an email. This is all good stuff so I hope you’ll stick around to hear it… But before we get to all that, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. I’ve spent the few weeks rebuilding our content vault and adding a lot of additional training to it. New workshops include how to add a VIP day to your services, how to create a new offer, how to get more done, how to do research, how to develop your own frameworks, how to conduct discovery calls, how to get more referrals, how to build an email list, how to create a launch sequence and dozens more. The more we add the more I think we really need to raise the price because there is a crazy amount of helpful templates, workshops, and even monthly coaching in The Underground. But for now you can still get in for less than you spend on a dinner out with your family. Learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, my interview with Erica Schneider… I'd love to get started just by hearing your story and how you got to where you are now as a coach, content maestro in some ways. You are an authority builder for so many people. You're doing a lot of things. So how did you get here? Erica Schneider: I am doing a lot of things. So I was the head of content at a B2B marketing agency. for four and a half years. I started there as a contract editor, then managing editor, then head of content. And I have loved writing my entire life, but I never knew how to make money from it until 2018, which is when I kind of stumbled into the content marketing world. And so I am a self-taught marketer. never went to school for marketing, never studied like copywriting, content writing, any of that stuff. I learned everything on the job. Um, but I also sort of always wanted to be a teacher. So growing up, I wanted to either teach or write or one of those two things, but I just didn't know how to do it. Um, and so while I was head of content, which I was loving, uh, I realized as, uh, through the effort of building a personal brand that I was sort of teaching at scale. just by sharing content every day. And my audience was asking me, hey, you know, could you help me with this thing or that thing? Got my wheels turning, like maybe there's a way that I could actually go out and teach people and make money for it and write and teach other people how to write. And so that was a couple of years ago that I had that aha moment. The creator economy luckily is booming and I hopped on board. So that's sort of the short version of it. Rob Marsh: Before we jump into all the things that you're doing now, there are a lot of people who would love that career track, you know, getting into content to head of content. And I think it's not as easy today as perhaps it was, say, 10 years ago or in 2018 when you started. Let's talk a little bit about how people could do that today if they wanted to follow in your footsteps. Erica Schneider: Yeah, so with AI especially, it's getting easier and easier to create basic content, right? I don't think AI is fantastic yet even when it's well prompted. The best thing that you can do as you become a writer or an editor is to think why is this piece of content that I am tasked to work on even existing in the world? Just start asking yourself that question all the time. Um, when you start to dig into the purpose behind content, you start to force yourself to think a little bit more like a strategist. And when you understand how content actually affects audiences and potential buyers and clients in the real world, You can start to link that back to the decisions that your clients or the companies that you're working with are making and form your own opinions on whether or not you think it'll work or why. strategist mindset of, well, hold on a second. Why are we even doing this? What's the purpose of this? What's the goal of this? What kind of play is this? It just forces you to gain those skills that are necessary to either climb up the ladder internally or leave and help to serve people externally. I know a lot of people that They skip the whole, I'm going to work in-house thing and they just become freelancers, but then they get stuck there as well. And again, a lot of people are really worried about AI. And so my retort to that is always think strategically. AI is a fantastic brainstormer back and forth, but it shouldn't ever be the thing that clients or companies make decisions based on. It should be based on human input. Rob Marsh: And if you do that, it seems like occasionally you're going to come across content where the answer, as you think about why is this existing in the world? The answer is going to be, it shouldn't exist in the world. A lot of times, yeah. Yeah. Well, and that seems to be an opportunity then to say, okay, so what would I do differently? Where you're stepping, like you said, into that strategist role where you're helping either your client or your employer improve what they're doing. And you're not just there as a writer, but you're actually solving a real life problem. Erica Schneider: Exactly. Like, I think that there was a time when companies were just all following the same playbook, right? Like HubSpot created the, the SEO, you know, inbound play and everyone was just cranking out, you know, four to 20 blog posts a week and putting it on their site. And everyone needed a bunch of writers for that. That is starting to not work as well. Um, especially since AI can do that too. So like the whole, the whole, you know, trend, the whole, uh, setting is changing. And so again, like instead of just thinking, I'm going to write this because the client said yes, I want to write this. You can do that if you need the money, but just ask yourself, zoom out. Are they running an old play? Are they running a new play? What have I seen that's working? What have I seen that's not? And just familiarize yourself with marketing in general instead of just blogs or so to speak. Rob Marsh: So also as head of content, it's not just about strategy. What other skills would you encourage content writers or copywriters to develop in order to step into a role like that? Erica Schneider: So absolutely. It's definitely not just strategy. So self-editing is probably the best skill that you can develop as a writer because generally you're going to send it to an editor. And that editor is going to have a lot of questions for you, if they're a good editor. Otherwise, they'll just make changes and not tell you anything. I luckily had good editors that asked me questions and forced me to think hard. Like, why do you make this decision? Do you believe that this should really go here or there? Why did you choose this style of introducing whatever? And so if you start to ask yourself those questions, then you can get ahead of it. My favorite thing that writers did when I was an editor was an editor, which also was part of my role as head of content was to review all the pieces. They would come to me explaining certain decisions that they made before I had to ask them. That was huge. Like immediately if a writer did that, I knew that they were critically thinking about the work as opposed to just doing the work. So tell your editor, like leave comments on your document. Hey, I put this here because reason. I think that this example fits here because whatever, but I also think it could fit there. And so I'm letting you know, let's talk about it. Make it a collaborative effort where you're kind of leading the charge and making it easier for an editor to understand your choices as opposed to just sort of shipping it and saying, here you go. Again, it all comes down to like the strategic developmental viewpoint of why does this piece exist? And then within the piece,

Do you write webinars? Sell with webinars? Work for clients who use webinars? If so, this interview is for you. Jason Fladlien is the copywriter behind the highest selling webinars in history. I asked him about whether webinars are still working today and the answer is part of this 432nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We also talked about how to be a better copywriter, how to create information products and a lot more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Jason's Info Product Webinar One to Many (Jason's book) Jason's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  A few years ago I attended several mastermind events hosted by one of my mentors, Brian Kurtz. The were fantastic events. Each of these events featured several speakers sharing the strategies they use to succeed in whatever they were doing. One guest might share direct mail packages they used to sellout their services while another speaker might share copywriting techniques and yet another would walk through how to set up a research survey then share how they determine which answers are worth paying attention to and which answers could be ignored. I always walked away from these events buzzing with ideas to try.  At one of these events, Brian invited Jason Fladlien to speak. Jason is pretty well known in the online world as the expert who created the highest-ever selling webinar… he sold something like 60 million dollars worth of services on a single webinar.  He has personally written hundreds of webinars that have sold millions of dollars in courses, services, products and more. I used what Jason taught at that event to write our best-ever selling webinar. So it makes sense that Jason has been on my list of future potential guests for a long time. And we were finally able to get an interview with Jason. We definitely talked about webinars and what it takes to make them work—especially today when we’re hearing that webinars don’t work as well as they used to. Jason does a pretty good job of busting that myth. But that’s not all. Jason shares how he created his very first information product. It’s not as easy to do today as it was when Jason first started, but if you want to sell courses and other products, what Jason shares in this episode will definitely help you get started. I don’t think its an exageration to call this episode a masterclass in creating and selling your own products. There are a lot of copywriting insights here as well. But before we get to all that, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. I’ve spent the last week rebuilding our content vault and adding a lot of additional training to it. New workshops include how to add a VIP day to your services, how to create a new offer, how to get more done, how to do research, how to develop your own frameworks, how to conduct discovery calls, how to get more referrals, how to build an email list, how to create a launch sequence and dozens more. The more we add the more I think we really need to raise the price because there is a crazy amount of helpful templates, workshops, and even monthly coaching in The Underground. You can learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, my interview with Jason Fladlien… Unfortunately, as we started recording this interview, we had some technical difficulties and we lost the first five, six minutes of the interview where Jason introduces himself and talks a little bit about how he got started as a copywriter and how he created an information product from scratch and started selling it for, I think, $7. He was originally creating content for just a couple of dollars per article when he started out and needed to learn copywriting in order to sell his services. So we're going to join the interview as I ask Jason how he became a copywriter, how he got good at the process of writing and where that took his business. Jason Fladlien: Yeah, I mean, because back then all the copywriters that tell you how to write copy, they would give you this very long convoluted process that involved a tremendous amount of research, which I get. If you're going to write for Agora back then when they were printing stuff and putting it in the mail, and there was lots of money on the line, you should do that. But we are at this cross section of the new internet where I found very quickly, and this is what changed my life, is I didn't have to have to write world-class copy. I had to have an interesting offer that I could just write very quick, formulaic copy around, and that's what I did. I create a lot of info products because that's where I created that first one and it sold well, Rob. It was like, let me just repeat the process. Let me create these cheap little ebooks, $7, $17, $27, make them very simple, solve problems because I could publish them fast. All of them needed a sales letter. So let me come up with a formula to write these sales letters.  So here's what I did. It was brilliant. I went and I found every good sales letter I could find and categorize them. I said, okay, what kind of headlines do they all use? Can I fit them in a category? Turns out 80% of them could fit into one of four categories of a headline. So when I sat to write it, Headline, I wrote one of four headlines. That was it. Leads, there were about five ways I saw repetitively that were used to open up a sales letter. Great. Bullet points, I found there were about five different structures of bullet points that I could use when I wrote bullet points. Guarantees, so I isolated these key variables and then I found the structure. I didn't copy it. Here's a lead as old as time, Rob. I'm sure you're familiar with this. If you're looking to X, Y, and Z, then this will be the most interesting letter that you'll ever read. Here's why. Halbert made that very popular. To this day, people will still use that as a lead. The important thing isn't the words that are used, it's the structure behind it. If-then statement, it's the linking of the two. It's calling out something very exciting that's in their mind right now that they're so desperate for, and then dramatizing it to say, to open up the idea that you have a solution for it. And that's a good strong lead. So it was less the specific words, which is what a lot of copywriters are focusing on. It was more the structure underneath it. I isolated that, and then I would assemble them together like blocks. And that's how I wrote a lot of my copy. And what was really cool, Rob, is along the way, you become unconscious about this. So I could recite phrases by memory after a while of doing it enough.  Guarantees that I would use over and over again after a while and I really got good at it was like Whether it's 29 minutes from now or 29 days from now on a 30-day guarantee, right? If you want your money back you get every penny. So the word penny was used because it diminished the cost associated with it. If you said dollar… dollar seemed bigger than penny, right? You get every penny promptly and quietly returned to you. So I was like, okay, no fuss. So I could memorize these because I would use them so often and then I can think and copy. And I didn't have to like create so much as pull it out with a swipe file inside of my head and stitch them and assemble them together. And that was a game changer for me. And so then people would want me to write copy for them because they would read the copy I wrote for myself. And they say, can you do for me what you just did for yourself? And I'm like, if the, if the, Jack's big enough. Of course I can. That's how I really got to copy. Rob Marsh: How long did that process take? In my head, I'm seeing copywriters who buy the book, a book, and they're like, oh, here's the formula in the book. I'm just going to apply that across the board. And it usually doesn't work because they're not thinking there yet. Jason Fladlien: It only works if the context fits the formula. That's the challenge, right? So like, you know, and I still remember most of this today, even though this is now 16 years ago. The most tried and true headline that you could always use is how to do insert something incredible. In certain specific time without big things that normally would get in the way. So that structure, it's still one of the best ways to write a headline to this very day. How to do something they desperately desire in a certain specific amount of time without normal obstacles that would prevent or stop them from getting the thing that they want. That covers like all the bases. Now, you could dress that up, you could play with it, but at the end, what does it have? It has a promise in the headline, it has a timeframe associated with it because one of the strongest appeals is instant gratification. There are very few things that are more persuasive than instant results, right? And then it also starts to attack the objections. because the number one reason somebody won't buy something is because they don't believe either you or they don't believe they will get the value out of what you promise. So we do all that economically in a single headline. Now, if we can add proof to it, even better, right? And sometimes the proof itself, I noticed is the whole headline. So you know, the old school headline, like, you know, 65 miles an hour, the loudest sound is the clicking of the ticking of the clock, right? Rob Marsh: Yep, yep. Jason Fladlien: The structure of that is that's a proof headline. If you have compelling enough proof, then that should be your whole headline. And that's how you should run with it. And so if you don't have proof, A, you shouldn't be writing a sales letter, period. I mean, why sell a product that hasn't proven itself? That's stupid. It's like, hey, let's cut down this tree with a blunt axe, right? Or a butter knife.

Jude Charles, an inspiring author and storyteller, discusses the importance of showing up courageously in life. He shares his transformative journey through public speaking, highlighting the power of vulnerability and storytelling. Jude emphasizes the significance of meaningful connections and self-reflection in personal growth. He encourages others to embrace their own stories and pursue paths of relentless courage. With insights gained from past experiences, he aims to help listeners impact those around them with authenticity.

How do you stand out in a sea of copy and content sameness? A USP (unique selling proposition) isn't enough. Neither is being different. My guest for the 230th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is marketing strategist Louis Grenier, author of the new book, Stand the F*** Out. We talked about what it takes to position your business, find your people, and build a durable brand. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Louis' book and bonuses Louis' book on Amazon The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  The biggest question facing most people who own their own businesses is how do I stand out? How do I position my busines in a way that makes it easy for customers to find me—and more importantly, to know they want to work with me? What can I do to make them care? Those important questions are answered in the new book, Stand the F*** Out by Louis Grenier. And Louis is my guest for today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. The topics we cover in our discussion are the kinds of things that help copywriters go from helping clients get the words right to helping clients sell more products, grow their businesses and as the title says: stand out of the crowd. This stuff isn’t easy. It can take years to learn. But if you stick around, the insights Louis shares will shortcut your learning curve Before we jump into this interview, I want to mention the guest trainings we have lined up in The Copywriter Underground this month one more time… the first one is focused on building connections with prospects and clients on social media without burning out. If you’re like me and struggle to show up on social media consistently, this one will change your approach entirely—and help you find a client. And by the way, a single new client could pay for your Underground membership, for the entire year, two or three times over. And the second workshop is all about landing a “real” in-house job—either part time or full time. A lot of copywriters want something a bit more stable than the string of clients they get as a freelancer. If that sounds like you, you need to hear the ideas this workshop will include. The presenter for this workshop was a talent placement expert for creatives. She’s helped hundreds of copywriters find so-called real jobs. What she’ll share is critical to know if you’re thinking about applying for these kinds of jobs and want to stand out from the crowd. Both of these workshops are exclusively available for members of The Copywriter Underground. If you want access to them plus more than 30 templates, 70+ other workshops and trainings, and monthly coaching and copy critiques from me… you can learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. If you’ve been thinking about trying out The Underground, now is the time to do it. The first workshop is tomorrow. Go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu for more information. And now, let’s go to our interview with Louis Grenier.  I like to start by hearing your story, how you got to where you are. You're a marketing strategist, author of a fantastic book, Stand the F Out. I don't usually use that word. I do. But it stands out for sure. So tell us how you got here. Louis Grenier: Bonjour, bonjour. Thank you for having me on. And it feels like I'm part of podcasting royalty. So it's good to be invited on this podcast, listen to it a few times over the years. And it's funny how the copywriting discipline is is still thriving despite the fact that they were supposed to be dead a couple of years ago. So it's good to see that you're still fighting the good fight. So yeah, to answer your question, it started from a trip in Paris when I was 17. So that was 18 years ago. to visit one of my older brothers. And I saw this book on his shelf that was basically the French version of Influence by Cialdini. But it wasn't a translation of it. It was like a psychology slash marketing slash behavioral psychology book in French about key facts about human behavior. And I remember reading it. I was a lost mechanical engineering student at the time. And I just loved it so much. And things started to develop from there. I started to connect all the little puzzle pieces that I had misplaced, like the fact that I love being on the internet from a very young age and love hacking stuff on the computer. I loved all things psychology, understanding people. I felt I had the knack for it in some way. It came naturally to me. And all of that came together while I was doing mechanical engineering, realizing that that wasn't my thing, that marketing, digital marketing at the time was the thing I wanted to do. So that was the start at least. Rob Marsh: Yeah. I think a lot of marketers have a transition where they want to do something else or maybe not want to, but they've been sort of programmed by school or whatever to do. I was ready to go to law school when I started copywriting and kind of fell in love with the whole thing. So, there's a little bit of serendipity, I think, in a lot of our journeys. So from reading Influence though, you immediately became a marketer or you had a lot of steps along the way? Louis Grenier: I did. So after that, I quit engineering. I did one year of business school. And at the end of that year, I did an internship for a French car manufacturer in Dublin, Ireland. I was supposed to do that for three months, but I stayed on for like three years with them. So I got full-time employment after a year, I was doing contract stuff for them. And I wanted to get into marketing, but I was still doing basic business-y type stuff, like account management for dealerships across Ireland and stuff. The first opportunity I had to actually apply the knowledge I thought I had about marketing from reading all the books, but doing none of the work, just, you know, theories was for a startup, a mobile marketing startup at the time in Dublin. That's when I started to work for real in marketing, realizing that all the things I thought I knew about it, or at least most of it was wrong or untrue, or just, I knew nothing really. So it took me a long time to unlearn all of that. I then launched my first marketing agency with 20 grand in savings that I burned through within a year and a half. I burned myself out doing that, but I learned a lot. After that, I joined Hotjar. which is a web analytics startup. It's not really a startup anymore, more a scale-up. I joined them thanks to a little podcast I had started at the time, which was eight years ago, Everyone Hates Marketers, which I have stopped now, but I met the CEO of Hotjar through that. So Hotjar learned a ton as well for four years, kept the podcast on the side, kept sending emails, started to practice a lot more of what I would call real marketing. and then restarted a business, which is standard F out. And it's really a combination of all the mistakes I've made and all the stuff I've learned into a book and a couple of other stuff. Rob Marsh: We're definitely going to talk about the book. I'm holding it up as we speak and it's a fantastic book. Everybody listening should probably have a copy of this on their shelf just as a reference on how to work with clients. But before we get to all of that, you mentioned that when you started out your career, you knew all the theories, you knew all of the stuff to do, but you hadn't done any of the practice and it was all wrong. Can you give us some examples of that, the wrong stuff, and how you figured it out in your own agency and through the other experiences, what was right. Louis Grenier: If I had to pick one, I would say that not necessarily something that was purely wrong, but very biased in one way, which was, I thought it'd be much easier than this. Meaning I thought it'd be much, much easier to make people do what you want them to do. You know, like clicking on a link or registering to something, basically making them care about something and how hard, I got punched in the face so many times in that startup, realizing that it's actually probably one of the hardest things to do is to make people care, make people do something you want them to do. It's just so, so, so, so, so hard. And we were in an industry that was already dying. Kind of the demand was quite low. And yeah, it was really, really hard. So if I had to pick one, probably the biggest thing, because in my head, I was imagining how it would be and the impact I would have on, you know, all the books I could cite and the research and whatever. But the reality, yeah, was much, much harder than I had anticipated. Rob Marsh: It's interesting you say that because I don't think that that has ever been mentioned on the podcast before and yet this is probably something that every single person who's been on the podcast or even listened to the podcast has dealt with. It's almost like an unsaid problem that we have is how do you get people off the couch? to make the phone call, to click on the button, to pull out the credit card. And I mean, that's why response rates are so low. Louis Grenier: Like you said, it's not easy. We are talking about the pain here. I think the answer to that, the solution to it, what I found along the way, what seems to work the best to make people care is to stop trying to make people care and instead understand what they care about already. So where is the demand? Where is the flow? Where is the need going? And channel that. So instead of playing God, thinking that we are smarter, better than you, and we're gonna make you do something that you don't know about, like problem unaware. Yeah. I'm rolling my eyes so far back. So… When you do that, it's easier, but far from being easy. I mean, an example, right? When we talk about percentage, you know, let's say 200 people join a waiting list for a program, right? So they show intent,