The Copywriter Club Podcast

Corrie Myers is a website copywriter and messaging strategist who acts as a thought partner for her clients. After 15 years in the education field, she made the shift to copy and has found ways to incorporate her leadership and teaching expertise into her business. She’s built a successful business over the last few years by leading with empathy and setting clear boundaries. Here’s how the conversation goes: Corrie’s career shift from teacher to copywriter. Building a business as a parent of three and how she balances work and life. The skills she’s brought from her teaching career into copywriting. Why she treats her own business as a client and why you should, too. The benefits of having less hours to do something. How she built confidence in making big life changes. Being a thought partner for your clients – how do you position yourself as the go-to? How the Think Tank has helped transform Corrie’s business. Why you should pinpoint gaps your clients might miss. How she determines the types of clients she works with. Where she finds leads and projects during unprecedented times and what she leans on during periods of unknown. How her pricing has evolved since the beginning of her business and how she packages her offers. Why day rates are helpful in getting your foot in the door for long-term work. How to selll a day rate or retainer. The subtle shift in language Corrie uses to position herself as the strategist. The messy middle – how do you trudge through? How AI has impacted her business and maximized her energy by being a way to “chop vegetables.” Tune into the episode by hitting play or checking out the transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Corrie's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  There is a challenge facing most copywriters that many of us struggle to deal with, and that is how do I stand out from the massive other copywriters and content writers who offer sales pages, emails, case studies, and all of the other things that we help our clients with? And for the most part, any copywriter can probably figure out how to do a decent job writing just about any project deliverable. And, yes, I know I'm probably oversimplifying here to make the point, but our guest on today's episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is copywriter and Think Tank member Corrie Myers. And as we talk with Corrie, she shared a ton of details about her business. Perhaps, most importantly, she talked about showing up not just as a copywriter, but as a thought partner for your clients. It's an approach that has helped her stay fully booked over the last year, while many other copywriters have struggled to find clients. And it's an approach that a lot of us could use in our own businesses. Kira Hug:  But before we jump into the interview, this episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank, which is our Mastermind for copywriters and marketers who want to figure out the next thing in their business, that could be new revenue streams or it could be a new idea or podcast or so many different ideas. I'm not even going to promote it right now, because Corrie talks about it with us in this conversation. So you'll get to hear from her what her experience was like in the Think Tank, and you can also hear the results of what she's been able to do while being in the Think Tank. And so I think that's truly the best promo for the Mastermind. We also had a chance to talk about the retreats. I know Corrie got a lot out of our most recent retreat in New Orleans. And I'm just going to mention that we do have Think Tank retreats coming up. In June, we have a virtual retreat, and then in September we're traveling to London for an in-person retreat, because similar to Corrie, we believe that the power in business growth and all types of growth, it all happens when you're together in person at these types of retreats. So if you have any interest in our Think Tank and becoming a new member, you can visit copywriterthinktank.com. Okay, let's kick off our episode with Corrie. Corrie Myers:  Well, in, what was it? January of 2019, I was pregnant and teaching full-time, and wrote on a little, it wasn't a fancy vision board, it was just a real basic notepad of my goals for 2019. And it was to explore other career opportunities. And I had a couple goals within that to reach out to people who had explored other careers outside of teaching. And then by the time I went back to work after maternity leave, I was also a copywriter. So that's kind of how I got into it, was deciding to explore it. And then six months later I was doing it. Rob Marsh:  That's really concise. So let's talk about what you were teaching, and why you felt the need to maybe move on. And I know you were doing more than teaching, you were doing counseling, you were doing more than just showing up as a teacher. So tell us about that experience. Corrie Myers:  I was a high school English teacher for 15 years and a department chair and helped lead programs. And so many of the programs that I led were about helping students develop their passion and explore what they were good at outside of what everyone said they should do. And I just remember one day standing there for so long teaching had been that passion for me. And then we were reading The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho and I was talking them through what it feels like to love what you do. And I had this moment where I realized I didn't love this as much as I used to. And so that was a real starting point for me to explore what also could be. I've always wanted to write, I just didn't know that I could do that outside of writing a book that gets published. So that was the starting point. And then just sort of the seed that was planted. And then, obviously, I loved what I did, helping students, supporting them with their very big challenges. But it just became a little bit too much, to be honest. It's a lot to carry, especially at that time I was also pregnant, and so you're caring for your own kids as well as everyone else's needs. And so I wanted something honestly that was a little bit less emotionally taxing. Because I have a big heart and I can't separate, I couldn't drive home and leave my student's needs at home, so I needed something different. That's a little bit of what started that, let's explore something else. Kira Hug:  What happens when you realize you don't love something anymore and you have that light bulb moment? Which I think is precious in many ways because some people just don't have that moment at all, or it takes too long to get to that moment. So what happens after you have that moment? What do you do? What do you put into play? Corrie Myers:  It's definitely scary. Especially, if you... I mean, I started teaching when I was 22. I hadn't done anything else career wise, and so it's scary. And then sometimes it feels too self-indulgent, especially if you're going to change careers when you're pretty deep into it. And so what it feels like once you make that decision is you do kind of have to decide, is this... I think a lot of times, particularly in the helping profession, we hold ourselves back from pursuing something that we are passionate about, because we feel a call, we feel a level of responsibility to help people. And that's really noble, but it's also not sustainable if deep inside that there's something else. And so it really was just sort of being brave enough to keep going and telling the right people. I talked to my therapist at the time. And I really had to get comfortable with the idea myself first, because I knew that it would not be easy for everybody else with that change. So I think that's the biggest step is making sure that you are super confident why you're wanting to make a change and okay that it's for you. Rob Marsh:  Okay. So you know you want to make this change. You wrote it down on a notepad, so you've kind of got the goal out there. But you didn't write, I'm going to be a copywriter. You said, "Explore other options." What other options were you thinking about? Where did your brain go as you started that exploratory process? Corrie Myers:  Well, having been in education, I knew the options I had there. So within that I had two people that I wanted to meet with, one who was a copywriter and one who was in administration moving into education consulting. And so those were my ideas. I really didn't know what copywriting was outside of what my friend was doing. And so the other options were what else can I do as an educational leader? So that looked like working at the district office level or working for a consulting agency outside of it. But that didn't feel like it was going to tap the creative energy that I wanted. Because as much as I wanted out of the classroom, I loved the creativity that I got to have with the students. And sometimes if you stay in education, I mean, you get out of the classroom, but you lose some of the best parts of it. So it just - Rob Marsh:  I have a friend who did that exact process. He went from the classroom to the district level. He hated it, even more money and all of that. And the next year he was back in a classroom, he was like, "Nope, I wasn't doing it for any of the bureaucracy, I was doing it for the kids." So yeah, that rings true as you talk about that process. Corrie Myers:  And then honestly just at that time, another big factor for me as a mom of young kids was the time factor. And as soon as you get into administration, your time just doubles and triples. And so even though the salary technically increases,

Carolyn McMurray is our guest on the 337th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Carolyn is a copywriter and host of a community designed for generation Z to learn about copywriting. But how does one start a community and grow towards 100+ members? Tune into the episode to find out. You’ll also discover: Carolyn’s accidental discovery of copywriting and how she landed her first gig. Her advice for getting her business started if she had to do it all over again. How she fell into the tech niche. Why she decided to build and grow a community for gen Z? What’s her community all about and how does she benefit from it? Should you label yourself as a junior copywriter? When she increased her rates and began to build her reputation and brand. How to create a copywriting portfolio that stands out. Where she gathers inspiration to write her list weekly. Why she doesn’t take herself too seriously and how it benefits her brand. Carolyn’s advice for building a successful community. Mistakes she’s made in the growth of her community and what to avoid. Why you need something to get you out of your head. Using ChatGTP for writer’s block – does it really help? Thinking about marketing to gen z? Here’s some advice from a gen z’er. Using AI and the future of copywriting for upcoming generations. Listen to the episode by hitting play or checking out the transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Connect with Carolyn The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Way back in 1991, two academics, William Straus and Neil Howell came up with a theory about a generational cycle in American and Western history. And in their theory, they defined 13 different generations starting from the founding of the American colonies and running right up to the publication of their book. Actually, it goes farther back than those 13, but that's where they focused on. Their work is partially responsible for the way that marketers talk today about different generations like Generation X, Millennials, who are at one point also called Generation Y and Gen Z, which some academics like to call the homeland generation. So, why the long introduction about generations to start this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast? Well, our guest for this episode is Carolyn McMurray. She's a member of Generation Z and the founder of a copywriting group exclusively for Gen Z copywriters. We asked her about how she got her start in copywriting, building a portfolio, outdated writing advice, overcoming writer's block, and what to do if you're writing to Gen Z. Stick around. This is a pretty good discussion. Kira Hug:  That might be your most Rob Marsh-esque introduction that you've ever created. Rob Marsh:  I don't know. Kira Hug:  I love it. I love it. All right, so before we jump into the interview, if you haven't heard yet, we just launched our newest podcast, AI for Creative Entrepreneurs, which officially has dropped this week with new episodes, which we'll share regularly on YouTube and also wherever you stream your podcasts. So again, that's AI for Creative Entrepreneurs. You can also check out the site where you can sign up for regular updates so you never miss an episode as we're trying our best to figure out what's happening with AI and apply it in our businesses and in our creative lives. And, we won't pass up the opportunity to also mention our mastermind, The Copywriter Think Tank, which is, in my opinion, the best place to go if you are a writer and you want to figure out what is the next thing in your business; the next offer, the next product, the next revenue stream. We've really figured out how to help writers create a pivot in their business and achieve that next level result, whatever that is for you. And you can learn more about that mastermind and coaching experience at copywriterthinktank.com. Rob Marsh:  Okay, let's kick off our episode with Carolyn McMurray. Carolyn McMurray:  So basically my journey, I'd say, started when I was about 17. No one had taught me about copywriting at school. It was always: become a teacher. I was doing a lot of my own blog stuff and social media captions just for myself, but I never knew that it could be a career. So I thought, "Let's go to university, study business" because everyone was saying you should study business. And, I hated it. I left after a month, went back again to study English because I was better at that. I liked it. It just wasn't wasn't me. I just didn't like being told what to read and Shakespeare ... I like Shakespeare, but I don't know. It wasn't for me. And while I was there, I actually ended up doing a bit of blog writing for this law firm. And again, they didn't tell me it was copywriting and I didn't clock that this was copywriting, it was just writing for a law firm. And then in some funny stroke of luck, in that same month, I found out about freelance copywriting and I was like, "Oh, wow. I can do what I've been doing for the past couple years already and make a living out of it and travel, and be my own boss." It sounded like a gimmick, a scam. I was like, "Can you even do that?" And then I found out you could quit ... my parents were really upset with me ... moved back home. Spent a month building a portfolio and then from there, it's just been evolving up. Rob Marsh:  Okay, so I want to go back to the month of business school. I graduated with a degree in business, actually a second degree in business, but tell me what you hated about it and maybe more important, because I think a lot of people get into something and get started with something that they hate. I had this experience with law school actually, and they don't know how to get out. And so I'm curious why was it okay to quit? Carolyn McMurray:  So first of all, the reason I didn't like it... I think if I went back now with the mindset I have now to study business, obviously running this community is almost like a business so it would have helped. But back then they were throwing around words that I just didn't understand, and I don't think they properly... I don't know, it just wasn't explained well enough. Maybe it was just that university. There was a bit of math involved. I'm very, very bad at math. I didn't stick it out. I probably would have enjoyed it if I could go back now. I think I just quit because I didn't like it. I didn't really think too much about it. And also, I just knew I wasn't going to be able to get a good grade if I stayed so I was like, "There's no point in staying in something that I'm not fully enjoying." Kira Hug:  When did you feel like, "Okay, I can do this copywriting thing? I've got it." Was there a moment? Carolyn McMurray:  Probably in my second gig. So the first one I got, it was good. It was a starting point. I think it was 30 pounds per 1000 words, which is not really normal but I was like, "I'm just going to take it." But the second one was when I started really feeling like I understood things, and I was starting to know and value my work a lot more, and charge a proper rate. Yeah, the second one was for an agency in Dubai and that's when I felt like, "Okay, I'm really starting to get the hang of it now." And, that's a bit ambitious. I think it was six months later, but yeah, I felt like I had gotten it then. Rob Marsh:  Tell us about that process. You went home after leaving school and you spent a month building your portfolio. What was that thinking process? What were you writing? What did you want to include so that you could use that to build your business? Carolyn McMurray:  So I went back home and for me, building the portfolio was just something I really needed to do because obviously I didn't have any experience and it seemed like every job was asking for experience and I was like, "I don't have any." So I thought, "Let me build samples up of my work." And obviously, I didn't actually have anything to begin with, so I wrote a few things for brands, made up, spec pieces, made it clear it was a spec piece. I think one of them was for Airbnb, a blog post. I also emailed two companies. They were both startups. One was a healthcare thing, and then the other one was ... what was it? It was this app for food. And I said, "I'm starting out. I would love to write something for you for free." And, they said yes. Yeah, and that's how it started off because I didn't mind taking work for free because I felt like there was really no other option at the time for me. There were no internships running. And another part of the reason, if I'm being super honest, I love my parents but there were just some issues there. It's not a completely sane family, so I just needed to get out. So that was also another really big push just to do it quickly. Kira Hug:  What advice would you give to other Gen Z-ers who know they don't want to do business school, they don't want to do these other things that have been pushed toward them and they might be interested in something creative, like copywriting. What do you wish you were told earlier on when you were just getting started? Carolyn McMurray:  I think building a portfolio, you can go down that route and dive straight in. That's great. I probably wouldn't have dived straight into freelancing. That was quite difficult. I probably would have gone in-house first and learned properly for a year or two and just had more stability. I'd probably also say there's other options, like ad school, portfolio school. I probably would have done that if I could go back because that seemed really interesting and more specific to copywriting.

John Forde is a direct-response copywriter and co-author of the book, Great Leads and the person behind the long-running newsletter called the Copywriter’s Roundtable. John shared his process for getting started with research and copy and the lessons he’s learned from his 23-year copywriting career. Here’s how the episode goes: John’s approach to research – how much do you really need to get started? What does it mean for your copy to be invisible? Do you need to invest in another copywriting formula? How often do you need to check in with your writing process and method? The difference between divergent and convergent thinking and how to use each in copywriting. Why the warm-up is essential to writing your best copy. The benefits of reverse engineering outlines in different copywriting assets. How speed can benefit your copy and emulate positive energy. John’s process for feeding his brain from morning to night. How fiction books can help you develop a better sense of empathy. The 6 leads John teaches in his book. What makes a great lead? Info product vs. a wise product – what makes one better than the other? The discipline that comes with writing a weekly newsletter for over 20 years. His view on the future of copywriting and the lifestyle of copywriters. Hit that play button or check out the transcript below! The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website John's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  If you've been listening to the Copywriter Club podcast for very long, you know that we love talking to copywriters, content creators, and marketers at all stages of business, from beginners to seasoned experts. Today's guest fits very comfortably in the latter group. John Forde is the co-author of the book Great Leads, along with Michael Masterson, and the man behind the long-running weekly email called The Copywriter's Roundtable. He's also the author of dozens, maybe even hundreds, of high performing sales promotions in the financial newsletter industry. John shared his process for getting started with research and copy, how divergent and convergent thinking helps him come up with new ideas, the lessons that he learned as a copywriter, especially as he was just starting out, along with a lot more. Stick around, because this interview is a good one. Kira Hug:  But before we get to the interview, this podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Think Tank. That is our mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to figure out the next thing in their businesses. That could be anything from creating a new product to launching a podcast or a video channel. Maybe it's creating a product company or building an agency. Maybe you just want to be the best copywriter in your niche. Maybe you just want to hang out with us in real life at one of the upcoming retreats that we're so excited about. Regardless, you can check out more information copywriterthinktank.com to find out more and to apply today. Rob Marsh:  Okay. Let's kick our episode off with John. And as we do, just a quick note that John's neighbor decided to mow his lawn about halfway through the interview. It's not too bad, but we do apologize for any of the background noise that you might hear. Don't let that stop you from listening though, because this is a really good interview packed with lots of ideas you can implement in your business. John Forde:  I guess, just like any story you ask a copywriter to tell, it can be long versions and short versions. So, I'll try to come somewhere in the middle. When I was in school, I was studying... What I wanted to study was English lit. I was talked out of that by my mother who has a degree in English literature and a master's degree in English literature and she worried about my employability. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. John Forde:  So I started taking marketing courses because they were there. To be honest, the teachers were great, but I learned nothing. I retained nothing from those marketing courses, at least not consciously. Maybe in the subconscious, I don't know. But when I got out of school, I wanted to find some way to do writing that still involved making money, not starving. In the time that I didn't know what I wanted to do, I went to a graduate program in Annapolis, St. John's University. It's really just a great books program. And not especially marketable, but I just felt like that would be very interesting to me, so I took that. Well, I ended up seeing a job posting there for an internship at Agora Publishing. At the time they were very, very small, maybe 25, 30 employees total across the company. I went, I got the internship. I was being paid $15 a day to write editorial stuff. I met Bill Bonner and at one point he said, "Why don't you come over and sit in my office?" We had big open offices. "Come over and sit where I am and I'll teach you how to do writing or something." He didn't really have a plan and Agora didn't really have copywriters then, except for Bill and one other person who did it part-time. This is where I'm shortening the story. It involves getting business cards, not knowing what to put in the business card. I put a copywriter on there because I knew Bill was a copywriter and I thought, "Oh well." And I just wanted to have business cards because I'd never had them before. And when they came, Bill saw the box of business cards and he said, "Business cards. What do you need these for?" And I said, "Bill, to be honest, I'd never had them before. I want to hand them out maybe at a happy hour or something like that." And he said, "All right, well that's respectable I guess. But what did you put on there for a job title?" And I said, "Copywriter." And he said, "All right, I can teach you to do that." And that's how I started writing copy. He would write a promotion and he would fill in the broad strokes and he'd hand it to me and he'd say, "Fill in the rest. Fill in these blanks." Gradually got to do more and more of the writing, and there it went. And Agora famously expanded and Bill decided that they needed to have a copywriting training program. He and Mark Ford, who has a similar last name but we're not related, came in and he and Bill put that together. I helped them run that and it just expanded. That became a core of the Agora copywriting training until people all spun off and started finding their own ways to train, which were also very effective. Then it became the foundation of the AWAI training program. That was that. Rob Marsh:  With those beginnings, you have probably... Well, between you and Bill and Mark, you probably have helped train more copywriters than anyone else in the world, I've got to believe. John Forde:  I've never counted, but I think a lot. Yeah. A lot. Rob Marsh:  You got to be in the top three maybe. John Forde:  We did copy training things every year and brought in people from all around the world really, because Agora's trying to... has offices and affiliates and things like that in different countries. And I did that for maybe 15 years, 18 years. Yeah, I don't think I could begin to count. But of course now Agora has multiple affiliates inside of it and each one has their own copy pod, copy training setup. So, they do it all on their own... They do all that training too. I mean, there are lots of people now who are in the Agora business that have been doing it for less time than I have and I read their stuff and learn from them all the time. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, it's a training powerhouse. As you think back to what you were learning from Bill, as you were starting out, can you just share some of those... the first critical lessons that really got you started from... So many of us do the English thing, and who knows what we're going to do when we grow up, but we have a pretty good writing foundation. But that's a very different thing from writing promotional type stuff. So what are some of those first couple of skills that Bill was teaching you that you were able to put to use as you were growing your career? John Forde:  Well, Bill is a fascinating person. He's very interested in ideas. He's a history buff. He reads a lot and is a very good writer outside of writing copy as well as writing copy. But the writing that he does for himself is different from the writing that we do in copy, because we're trying to get that instant response, instant effect. We have to keep it very lean and he does do the things where he gets more descriptive and writes longer and all those other things. One of the things that I learned early on I guess was just that, that the kind of writing that people think of when they think of writing is not necessarily the same as when you write copy. Because writing for fine literature or something like that is something where you want to look at the writing and go, "Boy, that's really good writing." But when you're looking at copy, you don't want to be thinking about the writing style at all. That should be invisible. This is the famous Ogilvy where one side says, "That's a really great ad," and the other one says, "That's a really great product." And he says, "We write the second kind of ad." That's one thing, is that you have to learn how to write in a way that is so good it disappears. Which is why I think a lot of people look at copy and they think, "Oh, I could do that." Because it's so lean and it looks so simple. But then when you get into it, you realize it's very hard to find that path that goes through and resists doing all those tangents and things. I think something else particularly with Bill is that the way he taught,

Paul Roetzer is our guest on the 335th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Paul is the host of The Marketing Artificial Intelligence Show and Founder & CEO of the Marketing AI Institute. He shares how AI can be used as a tool to increase efficiency and help grow your business. Here’s what you’ll find out: The impact AI is having on children and future generations. Is AI stealing imagination? The 3 questions you need to ask yourself as a creative using AI. Can we avoid using AI? The effects of AI-generated content and the natural human need. Low-cost and free access tools to start experimenting with AI. The areas copywriters should focus on and how they can leverage them. Should you shift your title? How to become a more efficient writer. Finding trusted voices to learn from to become more confident in AI. What AI cannot take away from copywriters. How to rid yourself of the fear that come with the never-ending updates, changes, and shifts in copywriting. Why you need to be willing to put out imperfect work. What can be streamlined with your team using AI? How does ChatGPT really work? How Paul uses AI in his business to maximize productivity without extra work. AI and fears – what does it mean for the future? Responsible principles and ethics while using AI for business and marketing. Tune into the episode by hitting play or reading the transcript below.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website AI Writer's Summit Connect with Paul on LinkedIn The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Full Transcript: Kira Hug:  When it comes to AI, it's hard not to wonder, as a creative person, if we're losing something or if we're unlocking a whole new level of creativity. In today's podcast episode, we cover the three questions we need to ask ourselves as creatives, and we dive deep into the world of AI and its applications in the business world. Our guest, Paul Roetzer, host of the Marketing Artificial Intelligence Show and founder and CEO of the Marketing AI Institute, shares his insights on how AI can be used as a tool to increase efficiency and solve business problems. Paul shares how his business uses AI for podcast transcription, summaries, blog post creation, and social media content. And naturally, it's impossible not to talk about the importance of responsible AI and how it affects our future and society. We also dive into how we can get excited about AI as creatives and accept it as part of our businesses and our lives. And yes, that intro was written in collaboration with ChatGPT because we've got to walk our talk and start experimenting with these tools. Now, let's get started. Rob Marsh:  Okay, so this part of the podcast is not written by ChatGPT. It's just me talking about the Copywriter Think Tank, that's our mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to do more in their business. You've heard us talk about this before. If you've been thinking about joining a mastermind and in particular, the Think Tank, now is the best time to do it because we have a retreat coming up in the first part of June. We also are planning a retreat overseas in London coming in September. Members have free access to both of those, plus a whole slew of other things that we do, including one-on-one coaching from Kira and myself on how to accomplish bigger things in your business, whether that's stepping out on stage, creating a new product, building a podcast or video channel, or maybe you're building an agency, a product company, even if you just want to become the best-known copywriter in your niche. Those are the kinds of things that we do in the Copywriter Think Tank. To find out more, visit copywriterthinktank.com, watch the short video, and then fill out the application so we can just chat and find out if the Think Tank is right for you. Okay, let's kick off our interview with Paul. Kira Hug:  All right, so Paul, I think this is a great place to start, just individual conversations the two of us have had with our kids. My son, he just turned eight. When I mentioned to him that a lot of copywriters I know are concerned about chatbots taking over their jobs and that's why I wanted to start this podcast, he immediately got teary-eyed and said, "What's going to happen if they don't have a purpose?" and followed immediately by, "Does this mean I can't be a writer?" which was really moving because I didn't even know he wanted to be a writer, so I was like, "That's a win." I mean, there was a tear, so I was like, "I was not prepared for this. I don't really know how to talk about this with him." I heard you had a similar story with your nine-year-old or a child of a similar age. Paul Roetzer:  Yeah, my daughter was ten at the time. I actually have a nine-year-old son, he wants to be a video game developer, which is a whole nother story about AI, but my daughter wants to be an artist like her mom because my wife was a painting major and she's an artist now. And so, in the summer of 2022 when I got access to DALL-E, the image generation tool, I actually debated whether or not to show it to her because I anticipated her reaction to be like the reaction your son had. And so, I decided I was going to show it to her and explain it. She knows AI. She understands how it works probably better than most business executives. I sat her down     and said, "I want to show you this new AI for artists." She just gave me that eye roll like, "I don't really want to see this." I said, "I think it's really important that you understand what it's capable of, and so I just want to show you one time." She said, "Fine." I said, "Just give me something you would want to create," and she said, "A fat fluffy unicorn dancing on rainbows." And DALL-E in eight seconds, generated six illustrations of unicorns on rainbows. She looked at me and walked out of the room and didn't want to talk about it. And so for a month or so, we did not talk about it. And then, I was building the presentation for my Marketing AI Conference keynote that was going to be in August of last year, and she came out and sat on the back patio with me. I said, "Can we talk about what you felt when I showed you that? I'd like to talk about AI and creativity in my keynote." She said, "That's fine." And I said, "Okay, well, what did you feel?" She said, "I don't like AI like you do." I said, "I don't like that it can do art like you and mommy. I don't like that it can write like me. I'm just trying to figure it out so I can help other people in their careers understand what it means and figure out what to do." She said, "Okay." So then that night we're laying in bed and she said, "You know what I don't like about that AI thing is that it's stealing people's imaginations. It's going online and it's learning from people's photos and drawings and paintings, and it's stealing their imagination. I don't ever want my artwork online because my imagination is what makes me me, and I don't want it taken from me." So yeah, that was my tears in the eye moment. You're like, "My goodness, that is a profound thing to think about." I think it's important as we go into this conversation for people to realize I am not an AI researcher, traditionally from a technology standpoint. I'm not a machine learning engineer. I'm a storyteller by trade. I came out of journalism school, and my family is full of artists and want-to-be developers, and so it's a real impact on my future and my family's future, and I'm trying to just figure it out and help other people figure it out. Kira Hug:  What would you say to her or someone like her who feels a similar way in regards to our imagination and how we can still have this imagination and how we can think about it in a new way? Paul Roetzer:  Where I landed was a couple of things. I wrote a post not too long after that, or right before that I guess, that said, "There's three main questions we have to answer in our careers, and creatives in particular: what will be lost? What will be gained? And when? So if I'm an artist or if I'm a writer, I'm going to lose something. The AI is going to do parts of what I did before. But I may unlock whole new realms of creativity, whole new realms of the ability to produce things maybe I couldn't even do before. When is it going to happen is the real key." I basically accepted that AI was coming for every knowledge and creative worker. All we had to do now was accept this and figure out what it meant and what could become possible with it. And so that led to us basically saying, "AI isn't going to replace us as writers, but writers who adopt AI will replace writers who don't." And so I think it's just our guidance and where I've landed overall is pretending like this technology isn't here and isn't affecting us is not the right path. I understand why there's fear, and I understand why in some cases there's anger and denial. I have friends that are like this, I get it, but it's not going to do you any good. What we're seeing today is the very, very early versions of what this is going to be capable of doing, and so it's really important that people just embrace the fact that this is where we are and it's where we're going to be going, and we need to figure out ways to enhance what we're capable of doing as creative professionals with it rather than trying to resist it, it's not going to work. Kira Hug:  What did your acceptance process look like? Did you just get it quickly and shift, or was it a gradual process for you over time? Paul Roetzer:  I mean, I've been studying AI for 12 years, so I would say it's probably been gradual for me, and I would also say it's probably ongoing.

Sam Woods is our guest on the 334th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Sam is a copywriter who’s been leveraging AI for copywriting since 2019. This episode dives into how AI is going to integrate into our personal and professional lives over the next decade, and Sam shares how copywriters can use it to their advantage. Take a peek at what we chat out: How will AI create and eliminate jobs and reshape the economy. What capabilities does ChatGPT have and how can copywriters leverage it in their business? How Sam uses AI in his client projects and his process for writing sales copy. Using ChatGPT prompts for market research. What ChatGPT is and what it’s not. Can ChatGPT really write in your voice? Treating ChatGPT like a junior copywriter. Is AI a tool for creativity on tap? How to present using AI to a client. What else can AI actually do? Why your input matters more than anything. The benefits and value of using AI in your creative business. Can using AI make you a better copywriter? What are the first steps to start using tools like ChatGPT? Tune into the episode below by hitting play or reading the transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Sam's Twitter The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  You'd have to be living on a different planet to not have your inbox clogged with emails about AI. Talk about artificial intelligence is everywhere. Some people are saying that it means the end of content, copy, and copywriting. Others are saying the opposite, that AI is the biggest opportunity for marketers in generations. And the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I can't remember who said this, but I recently saw a comment that said, "AI won't take your job, but someone using AI will." So learning about these tools and how to use them is not just a good idea, but quite possibly the best way to ensure that you're still working as a copywriter in the coming decade. Our guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club podcast is copywriter and AI expert Sam Woods, and we grilled him with our questions about AI, ChatGPT, and what it all means for the future. You are definitely going to want to stick around for this one. Kira Hug:  Before we get to our interview, the podcast today is sponsored by, actually, it's sponsored by our new podcast. So we have a new podcast that is launching soon featuring other experts like Sam Woods, and so today is a preview of what's to come on the new podcast, which is called AI for Creatives. So if you like today's episode and you want more of that, you can just check out our show notes and there'll be a link in our show notes so you can get on the list and hear all about the new podcast when new shows come out. Rob Marsh:  And that podcast is we're interviewing experts in AI, experts who are developing their own AI tools. It's really all about how we get better at using artificial intelligence in our own businesses as creatives. Kira Hug:  And this podcast episode is also sponsored by the Copywriter Underground, which is our membership for copywriters, content writers, creatives. And we're creating a new series of AI trainings in the membership so that you can figure out how to use these tools, how to apply them to your business. And so actually, Sam Woods has a training in the Underground that you can access where he shows a demo of how to use the tools in your own copywriting. And so, if you want access to other trainings like that, definitely check out the Underground membership. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, listen to this episode with Sam, then go to the Underground, check out what he shared there. That's good for now. Let's kick off our episode with Sam Woods. Kira Hug:  How do you see AI impacting society and the economy in the next five to ten years? Sam Woods:  Yeah, I'll make a prediction and everyone will then tell me that I was wrong five years from now. No, well, so it'll have... And it's hard to say these things because it sounds like hype, and it sounds like overstated, and it sounds like everything else that's been hyped. Right before this you had Web3 and crypto and all this other stuff, right? NFTs. And they were all hyped and so on. But what's different about AI is that it's an infrastructure play, as it is being integrated into all the things that we are already doing. Web3 is not infrastructure, Crypto is not... Even though crypto could be infrastructure in terms of payments and coins and tokens and everything else, but it wasn't, and it probably never will be. But what you can do with AI is at an infrastructure level in society as it can be implemented into, not everything, but most things. And that's what we're seeing now. Like Bing. Microsoft made the investment of the decade years ago when they invested into OpenAI, probably the investment of, not just a decade, but the century. And they're integrating ChatGPT into Bing, they're going to integrate it into Microsoft Word, the Office suite. All the tools that Microsoft has, they're going to implement this little chatbot type thing and have it be your writing assistant, your presentation, like PowerPoint assistant. In any tool, any app, any software you can imagine there, a lot of companies are integrating AI into it. Notion.so, the tool that a lot of people use, they've integrated AI into the tool, and it does simple things like summarizing or does whatever. So we're seeing that happen, and it's going to accelerate over the next few years to the point where five years from now, it'll just be a part of our daily routine of any kind, anything from work, to play, to family, to social life. It'll just be there in different ways and in different capacities. Now, the interesting thing is everyone thought AI was coming for the blue-collar truck driving jobs first, but they're coming for the white-collar information worker, creative works first or creative jobs first. It's coming for the creative class, if you want to call it that. So designers, writers, photographers, videographers. What we're seeing with generative AI is how it's becoming as good, and what we're seeing now is early. This is an early version of what it can do. Just imagine if this is version one, imagine version 50. And it can create texts, images, video, audio, either from nothing or just based on a minute of you speaking into a microphone. And then it can take your voice, analyze it, and then replicate your voice and have you say anything. So the capacity for you to create deep fakes of yourself is, unfortunately, for anyone to create deep fakes of you, is the tech is there and it is both good and bad. It's terrifying and exciting at the same time. But five years from now, it'll be part of everything we do, most things we do. Anything that involves a computer or a cell phone, somewhere in there, there'll be an AI bot doing different tasks, anything from writing to analyzing, to reminding you, to you name it. And it's going to create a crap ton of new jobs that didn't exist before. It already is. If you think about prompting, which is how you interact with something like ChatGPT and GPT-3, that is becoming a job where I believe companies are going to start hiring. And who knows what they'll be called? Some say they will be called prompt engineers, prompters, chief prompt officers. Rob Marsh:  Copywriter. Sam Woods:  Yeah, exactly. Prompt writer. I like to just call it the prompt librarian I've seen as well. So I just like to call it prompt craft, because you're really designing language that you then use to give instructions. So it'll create jobs like that. It'll create jobs for people who know how to integrate AI into any company's workflow, whatever it might be, and processes. So it'll create a ton of jobs, and it'll also eliminate a ton of jobs, and it'll reshape the economy in different ways. Not so much destroy it. It'll just change it. Everything will change. That's the short version. Rob Marsh:  So you're making a prediction. I want to actually take you back in time to 2015. We were together in Texas, I think it was the first time we met in person, and we were actually talking about AI at this conference. And a person at this conference, I don't know if you remember this or not, we'll call him Ed because that was his name, so we were in 2015 and he was telling us, he said... This was April 2015. And he said, "By October, AI is going to completely replace copywriting." And you and I both laughed. Sam Woods:  Yeah, because he was full of it. But anyway, go ahead. Yeah? Rob Marsh:  We're like, "No, no way. Not going to happen." But I think at that time we said, "Eventually, yes, it may happen, but we're years away from that." We were right. I mean, it has been years. It probably came a little faster I think than some people were expecting. The interface that ChatGPT in particular presents I think has scared a lot of people. But let's just go a little bit broader as we talk about AI, because ChatGPT is one tool, but it's not the only tool. And there are all kinds of different AIs. We should also mention, we say AI, it's not true intelligence, right? It's artificial, but these are algorithms, programs that are designed to do particular things. But let's talk a little bit more about some of those other applications, too. Sam Woods:  Well, so the funny thing is that the biggest game in town is GPT-3, which comes from the company OpenAI, and they also release ChatGPT. But ChatGPT is just a version of GPT-3. Now, all, most up until now, and I think that'll change this year, but up until now, almost just about every single text generating tool out there,

Juliet Peay is our guest on the 333rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Juliet is a personal brand coach and copywriter who helps her clients “unfrankenstein” themselves, so they can show up authentically online. When it comes to building a business, your personal brand can be the key to attracting your ideal clients. Here’s how the conversation went: Why Juliet decided to start a blog about local business and how it opened up a full-time job opportunity. Freelancing on the side and when she felt ready take the leap in her business. Doing something because you think you’re supposed to. Going from a reactive to a proactive client search and why mindset plays a key role. Finding the right social media platform for your business. Do you have to send hard pitches? Building relationships with people using LinkedIn. How Juliet landed a ghostwriting retainer project. The fine line between personal branding and copywriting. Her personal branding process – what does she use with clients? How personal should we get online? Is there a line we shouldn’t cross? How to find a middle ground when sharing strong opinions and viewpoints. One project at a time vs. balancing multiple deadlines. Implementing shorter deadlines for proposals and sending this key piece in your proposal routine. Hiring a VA + using Dubsado for business. Learning from client mistakes and the necessity of having contracts Common misconceptions around boundaries and how they improve your customer service skills. Finding contractors to make your life easier. Juliet’s cut and clear approach to problem-solving. The struggles of keeping up with the opportunities and not yet having the bandwidth to make it happen. Tune into the episode by hitting play or reading the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Juliet's website Nikita's episode  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  A lot of copywriters start out doing copy as a side hustle while they work at a real job, and as the work piles up, they quickly realize that they could probably be making more money doing the side hustle full-time. That's what happened to today's guest on the Copywriter Club podcast. Juliet Peay started a blog as a side hustle, got a bit of traction, and then started doing copy projects all while working her full-time job. Then she realized that what she was making as a freelancer was double the hourly rate she had in her real job, so it was time to jump. Juliet shared how she made the jump, plus she also told us about feeling trapped in a niche, how she sets boundaries, and her unique approach to making connections on LinkedIn. But before we get to our interview, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank. That's our mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to do more in their business, whether it's something like stepping out on stage, creating a new product, your own podcast or video channel, building an agency, a product company, anything like that. Maybe you just want to become the best-known copywriter in your niche. That's the kind of stuff that we help copywriters do in the Think Tank. To learn more, visit copywriterthinktank.com and fill out the application there. Before we get to the interview, I also need to introduce my co-host for this episode, Nikita Morell. Nikita is known as the copywriter for architects. She was our guest on this podcast a long time ago, it was episode 136. She's a former member of the Think Tank and I'm just excited to hang out with you for 30 minutes again. Nikita, thanks for joining me and welcome back to the show. Nikita Morell:  Thanks, Rob. I can't believe it's been so long. It's been a while. Rob Marsh:  It's been way too long. I've been watching what you do on LinkedIn and on your list, and of course, we'll talk a little bit about niching I think later on here, but you really truly have done an amazing job niching your business and filling a need and finding a spot for you that's very unique, I think, in the world of copywriting. Nikita Morell:  Yeah, thanks Rob. I'm really excited to talk about Juliet's story today because I think I identify with lots of different things that she's gone through. So yeah, excited to get stuck into it. Rob Marsh:  Well, fantastic. Let's kick our episode off then by listening to the first half of our interview with Juliet. Juliet Peay:  I guess how I ended up in copywriting was that I loved writing, like all copywriters do. I got my degree in journalism because I felt like that was the smart and practical thing to do. I thought maybe I would go into politics, or journalism, or even have a talk show someday or something. I felt like college was the time to get that smart degree. I, after college, found myself in a lot of marketing/receptionist jobs. I didn't really get the marketing jobs that I thought I was getting because they would be presented as a marketing job and then in reality it would be a small business that needs that two and one. So I did gain good experience from that, but I also didn't know how to get what I wanted out of those experiences because I was young. I was told you work somewhere for 30 years. If you do all the grunt work, you get promoted, and I kind of just went by that typical corporate advice and also that the degree was like the check mark. After a few years of doing that, I decided I really want to do writing, and every time I send my resume to agencies, they say, "Where is your portfolio?" And I keep coming up with nothing. So I decided to finally do something about it and I just started writing on medium.com, I started writing on LinkedIn. I eventually decided to hone in a little bit on one topic. So I started a blog in my hometown, which is in Greenville, South Carolina. So the blog was called greenvilleenthusiast.com. Around that time, Covid hit, and so when everything got shut down, I had been doing restaurant reviews, and then was thinking, well, how am I going to keep making use of this if I can't go anywhere other than do some takeout stuff? So I pivoted and decided to do a small business campaign. So I did Faces of Small Business and I would kind of highlight the family profiles behind these restaurant owners that were reacting to Covid. Later, I did a series called Faces of Black Business to show where we could support Black families and Black business owners, and that got a lot of traction for my blog, which was really exciting. I picked up some freelance work along the way. I was doing that from 5:00 AM to 7:00 AM. I did finally get a full-time marketing job and thought this is it. I did that from 9:00 to 5:00, but then after a year of doing both freelancing and full-time marketing, I decided to take the leap into freelance copywriting. I'm still here. I'm loving it. I've struggled with everything that every copywriter has as far as choosing their niche or finding their niche and kind of nailing that down. But long story, still long, that is my copyright journey. Rob Marsh:  Okay. I have a couple of really quick follow-up questions. Best burger in Greenville, like your food reviews. Juliet Peay:  Oh, that's such a good question. Oh, man. I feel like I owe it to my local community to choose a local place, but it's not coming to mind. So I'm going to have to cop out and say I really like either Five Guys or Bad Daddy's. Rob Marsh:  Okay, fair enough. What I really want to ask is, back when you were thinking about doing a talk show, tell me about the ideation there. What did you want to talk about, is it just general stuff or did you have something specific? Juliet Peay:  I didn't have anything specific. I just know they had one of these huge posters of why you should major in communications, and one of the things on the bullet points on that board was a talk show, and I thought like ooh, I could be Oprah, or Ellen, or be on The View or something. I'm a chatterbox and that seems like a perfect fit for me to just have a job talking. I do feel like when I had the blog, I did try to pivot it into an interview and I did maybe two episodes and was like, I don't like this. It's a different type of stress for me. So people have said before, "Why don't you host a podcast?" And I'm just like, "I don't know." It didn't land. Kira Hug:  Okay. So when did you make the transition and go full-time in your copywriting business? Juliet Peay:  Yes, so that was June 2020 is when I took the leap of faith. Yeah. Kira Hug:  Okay. And then when was the moment where you felt like, okay, I can really do this thing, this is real? Do you remember the context or any specific moments or details around that? Juliet Peay:  Yeah, so also I will say I think it was actually June 2021, so my bad, June 2021. But yeah, the catalyst for me being able to go out on my own was, for one, just the burnout and the exhaustion of trying to do it all, do everything. I had a friend ask how much are you making on your freelancing, and I hadn't really calculated it. To me, every project was just kind of exciting, extra pocket money, but I think when I calculated how much I was making in that 10 hours a week, the hourly rate was at least double what I was making full-time in corporate America. Then I also signed a ghostwriting book deal that was going to be at least four to six months of a pretty hefty retainer client. So that helped me feel like it was financially viable to take the leap. Rob Marsh:  And will you tell us what kinds of work are you doing in your business right now? Juliet Peay: So now I focus on websites, sales pages and emails.

Chloe Barnes is our guest on the 332nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Chloe is a copywriter and creator coach who made her freelance gig a full-time income. After going viral on a little platform known as TikTok, Chloe has been able to grow her business by building her personal brand. But what makes good content and how can you use the platform to your advantage? Tune into the episode to find out… You’ll also hear: Why she ended up studying abroad in Sweden and how it changed the projection of her career. Starting a travel blog and getting a full-time content marketing job out of it. How she maintained working a 9-5 and a 5-9. Why she ended up on TikTok in the first place. How she blew up on TikTok on two different occasions and booked out her calendar. Why you need to be okay with the long game and how to be consistent. How she builds her personal brand on TikTok rather than her copywriting expertise. Her process for posting on TikTok and her content marketing strategy. How do you come down from a viral moment? What about haters and trolls? What do you do about them? Balancing the many ideas that come from quick growth and success. Dealing with wrong-fit clients and how to navigate sticky situations. How to develop your own style on social media. Why you don’t have to pay to get started and how it’s holding you back. Press play or read the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Chloe's TikTok The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  How long does it take to become an overnight sensation? How much work do you need to put in until something goes viral or your audience starts to find you? And what happens when you finally break through and people want to hear from you? Our guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast knows the answers to those questions. Copywriter and TikTok sensation, Chloe Barnes, is here to answer those questions and more. We talked about going viral on social media, dealing with haters and trolls, her not exactly strategic approach to creating content and a lot more. So stay tuned because we think you're going to like this episode. But before we get to that interview, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank, that's our mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to do more in their businesses. Whether that's getting onto a stage, creating a new product, growing the business that you already have, creating a video channel, building an agency, anything like that. Maybe you want to just become the best known copywriter in your niche. That's the kind of thing that we help copywriters do in the Think Tank. To learn more, visit copywriterthinktank.com and fill out that short application. And I also need to introduce you to my guest host for this episode, copywriter and business strategist, Jill Wise. Jill has been a previous guest on the podcast, that was episode 235. She's also a former Think Tank member. She's an amazing copywriter. Welcome to the show, Jill. Jill Wise:  Thank you so much for having me. Like I said before we started recording, I was really excited to just hang out with you this morning. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, well I mean, when you're talking about all the amazing things... Before we started recording the show, telling me all the things going on in your business, I'm like, I wish we had more time now. Jill Wise:  I mean, maybe I'll just come back for another episode. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, let's do that. Jill Wise:  I'm pitching myself live. Rob Marsh:  We should definitely do that. I mean, since the last time we recorded you've had a baby, your business is still growing and doing amazing. So yeah, you have a lot, I think to add, not just to this conversation, but maybe a future episode. Jill Wise:  I'm very excited to talk about this though, because right after you sent this over, I obviously went and found her TikTok and her Instagram, and I found the viral videos, and I was starting to reverse engineer everything. I'm really excited to get into it. Rob Marsh:  Awesome. Cool. Well, first let's kick off our interview with Chloe Barnes with Kira asking her how she got started as a copywriter. Chloe Barnes:  I actually started in digital marketing for a university back when I was working in Australia, and I was promoting the student exchange program for the division of business. I did a student exchange when I was in uni, and it was amazing, and that was my first introduction into the world of marketing, something that you really believe in. It just opened up this whole new career path for me, because I originally got my degree in IT and started out as an advisor for a big four company, and really hated it. So once I started in marketing, I moved to the UK and got a job in an SEO agency, and realized that there was this whole other world that I just did not even know existed. From there on, I just went into various corporate jobs and found myself moving further and further away from copywriting, which is what I seem to always enter as. And people kept telling me I was really good at it, and I loved it. I was freelancing on the side and I thought, "You know what? I need to just go and do this for myself," because it was by far my favorite part of the job. But the more that you work in corporate, the less you get to do. They keep trying to move you into more marketing roles with campaigns and things, and copywriting is such a small part of the job. And I thought, "No. No, I need to go and do this because this is what I want to be doing." So yeah, two years ago, I probably just decided to take the leap and start taking on clients for myself, and just snowballed from there. Rob Marsh:  Okay. I want to know, where did you do your studies abroad? Chloe Barnes:  I went to Sweden. Yeah, I had a couple of glasses of wine one afternoon and decided to apply for a scholarship, and I applied for two schools in America, in the United States. One was just a throwaway. I was like, "I don't know where, I'll just spin the map and see what happens." And Sweden was the third option that I chose. Rob Marsh:  Do you speak Swedish? Chloe Barnes:  No. Rob Marsh:  Tell us about it. Yeah, share a little bit about that experience. I know this isn't really what I'm talking to you about, but I'm curious. Sweden is number one or two on my travel list right now. Chloe Barnes:  Amazing. It's such a beautiful country and I'm so glad I went there instead of the US, because it's just, I would never have thought to go there and it ended up being one of the most incredible experiences I've ever had. It was my first time seeing snow. As an Australian we don't get a lot of it, but I landed in the middle of winter and got a friend... They partner you with a buddy, and it was the first time I'd been overseas, first time being outside of Australia. I was 22, on my own, and it just totally blew my mind. I did the dog sleds, I went on a snowmobile, went to the ice hotel, got to travel on a cruise to Estonia, and just, best thing ever. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, sounds amazing. My father speaks Swedish and one of my best friends speaks Swedish, and have both lived in Sweden for a while. But yeah. Yeah, like I said, it's on my list. Chloe Barnes:  Yeah, you do have to go. It's a beautiful, beautiful country and it's just... I've actually ended up marrying a Fin, so in that family of countries. Rob Marsh:  Okay. Let me turn this into maybe just a broader question and then we can get back to some of the marketing and copywriting stuff. But just from your experience, how has travel impacted your work and the things that you do, as far as just opening up those kinds of vistas and opportunities? Chloe Barnes:  Oh, look, travel is probably responsible for the reason why I'm a writer now, to be completely honest. Because when I found out I was going to Sweden, I was like, "Well, of course I'm going to need to start a travel blog because I'm going to be that person." This was back in the BlogSpot and very, very early WordPress days. So yeah, I started a travel blog and that was what helped me get the job at the SEO agency. And having that travel blog... It was actually through some travel blog of friends that I got introduced to freelance copywriting and actually got a job at a content mill, churning out just blog post upon blog post for these clients. So without travel, without having that connection to writing about my experiences while I was traveling, I probably wouldn't be where I am today. Kira Hug:  I'm interested in the transition from working at these corporate jobs and then, you said you wanted to go in, do this for myself. When you decide, okay, I'm going to go full-time, what are some of the steps, the specific steps that you took to make that transition? Chloe Barnes: It took me much longer than I probably would've liked to actually make the leap into doing this for myself full-time. But I think the key for me was, because I have a family, I have kids, I've got a house, I've got a husband, all that, I needed to do it in a way that made sense for my family. So I worked at my full-time job and freelanced on the side initially, until I could start to see results from my content marketing. Once I started seeing organic generation happening through those channels, I thought, "Okay, I'm comfortable enough now to be able to take a step back from my full-time job and actually go into doing this." It was less of a leap of faith and like, "I'm going to make this work." And more of like, "I've built up a comfortable nest, I've got this working for me, so now I can take the steps to actually leave." But it was a really easy transition. The place that I was working at was very, very supportive.

Anne-Laure Le Cunff is our guest on the 331st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. After deciding to go back to school to study neuroscience, Anne-Laure created a newsletter that turned into the thriving business known as Ness Labs, a science-based learning community to become more creative and productive without the burnout. Anne-Laure shares how business owners can minimize content overload and make their lives simpler. Here’s how the conversation goes: Why Anne-Laure decided to go back to school and shift her career path. What is the generation effect and how it’ll help you learn more effectively? How a newsletter became a full-fledged business. The importance of finding the learning output that works for you. The reality of being an “expert.” Is there such a thing as the curse of knowledge? Why everyone could benefit from becoming a teacher. How do you connect all the things you’ve learned? What is mind gardening and how does Anne-Laure use it in her life? Are you holding onto too much random information? How she organizes her notes and filters through her mind as she takes notes. A book reading process – is it effective? How to decide what to learn next. What does creative chaos actually consist of? The benefits of breaking up your work into smaller tasks. How to work with your team in creative chaos. Do you have to change your work style for other people? Time management and themed days – could it work for you? How she balances her Ph.D. program and running a business. Anne-Laure’s advice for creating your OWN ladder and path. Do you have transferable skills? Assess before you pivot. How to run experiments on yourself, collect data, and conduct personal check-ins. What to watch out for to avoid burnout. AI and the future of copywriting. Tune into the episode or read the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Ness Labs Anne-Laure's Twitter page  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  There's a term renaissance man or renaissance woman that refers to people like Leonardo da Vinci, who had many interests in hobbies from writing and art to engineering and architecture. Another word used to describe people like this is Polymath. Isaac Newton and Benjamin Franklin were Polymaths. And Polymath or Renaissance woman are the terms that come to mind when I try to describe our guest for this week's episode of the Copywriter podcast. She is Anne-Laure Le Cunff, and she knows a lot about a lot. She's a neuroscientist, entrepreneur, and ex-Googler, expert note-taker, and all-around genius. Not to mention that she's a really cool person to hang out with. I have been following Anne-Laure for a few years and was thrilled when she agreed to join us to talk about learning and neuroscience and expertise and getting things done and so much more. I think you were going to love this interview. Kira Hug:  But before we jump into the interview, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank. That is our mastermind for copywriters and creatives and other marketers who want to figure out what's next in their business. That could be anything from stepping on a stage for the first time or creating a new product, maybe a new podcast, maybe a new video channel. Maybe you want to build out an agency or a product company. Maybe you just want to be the best-known copywriter or expert in your niche. Regardless of what it is, or even if you don't know what it is exactly, but you know there's something out there for you, this is how we help copywriters in the Think Tank. You can learn more if you're interested in being a part of a mastermind and joining us at retreats. You can learn more at copywriterthinktank.com. Rob Marsh:  Okay, let's kick off our episode with Anne-Laure Le Cunff. How did you become writer, neuroscience student, mindful productivity nerd, AI specialist? All of the things that you do, tell us the pathway. Anne-Laure Le Cunff:  Wow, that's a big question. How do we become who we are? I always enjoyed writing. I was already writing short stories and poems and little essays about big philosophical questions when I was a kid, but I didn't really think of it as a potential career. I am half French, half Algerian, and I grew up in a family where success really looked like following the traditional path. So I went to university. I got a job at Google. I did everything that I was supposed to do. So it took a little bit of time for me to find myself on my current path, and I had a little bit of a squiggle-y carrier. I left Google, I worked on a couple of startups, figured out that wasn't really what I wanted to do and found myself feeling completely lost, not knowing what was next. What do you do when you don't have that very clear ladder in front of you anymore when you don't know what are the next steps that you're supposed to climb in order to be successful? So I asked myself, what is something that I would always be interested in, no matter the money I would be making, no matter the fame, no matter the recognition from my peers, what would be something that I would love to keep on learning about and wake up every morning and study in an intrinsic manner? And for me, that was how the brain works, how the mind works, why do we think and the way we think? Why do we feel and the way we feel? So I went back to school at the ripe age of 28, went back to university. Everyone was much younger than me there, to study how the brain works. I started a master's degree in neuroscience. I did that. Loved it. And in the process of studying neuroscience, I discovered something called the Generation Effect that shows that by creating your own version of something that you want to learn, you're going to both understand it and remember it better. So I started writing online about what I was studying for school, and that's how I started my newsletter. So you can see it's very quickly, there was no grand plan or anything like that. I started writing a weekly newsletter about neuroscience and specifically about how you can apply it to your daily life and your daily work. And that started growing pretty quickly. And that turned into the business that I'm running today, which is called Ness Labs. Again, no grand plan, nothing like that. Just learning, experimenting, and sharing my work online. Kira Hug:  And then can we talk about Ness Labs and what you're doing today before we dig into your story. What happens there? Anne-Laure Le Cunff:  So Ness Labs is basically a newsletter, also a blog and an online community. So I usually choose to keep it short. I just say that it's an online platform because we do lots of different things. If you think about anything an online creator can do online, there's probably something like that that we do in Ness Labs. There's consulting, there's coaching, there are online courses. The common pillar, the thing that links everything together is that we're helping knowledge workers achieve their goals without sacrificing their mental health. So the people we're trying to help are very ambitious people, people who deeply, deeply care about their work and who have burned out in the past or who feel like that's something that could happen to them in the future. And our goal is to equip them with the tools and with the support and the community for them to avoid that and to do their best work while also maintaining their well-being. Rob Marsh:  So you mentioned the generation effect, and this feels like a really powerful idea that a lot of people who listen to our podcast may be using it, not realizing because we're all building our own businesses. But can we talk a little bit more specifically about that? What do you need to do to start to generate that positive outcome? Are there steps for making that happen? Is there a framework that we can think about as we go through creating that positive outcome for ourselves? Anne-Laure Le Cunff:  Yes. So there's no complex framework, but really the key ingredient here, the key thing to do is to rephrase whatever you're trying to understand in your own words. So this is why, and kind of instinctively, we do know that. When you were in school and you were just writing down whatever the teacher was saying without rephrasing anything, as soon as that was on paper, you would close your notebook and that was completely forgotten. But when you were asked, and this is why a lot of teachers ask you to do this, they ask you a question and they ask you to explain the topic in your own words to really think about it in your own manner, to also connect it to other things that you learned about in different disciplines or from different lessons. This is where the magic of the generation effect happens. And the reason why it works is that by doing this, you're making that knowledge your own. You're creating links, and associations between that new knowledge that you're trying to acquire and the knowledge that you already have. So you're really making that knowledge your own and acquiring it in a way that is going to stay in memory versus just looking at it and forgetting about it straight away. So that's really the generation effect. In terms of how to do it, it really depends on how you like to create best. You could use the generation effect through writing by writing your own little essay. That's what I'm doing. Writing is my thing. But if you're someone who is more comfortable maybe talking, if you were to create your own YouTube video about the topic, for example, again, rephrasing it in your own words, or if you could do a podcast, you could do even a little mind map,

On the 330th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Rob and Kira sit down after two weeks of in-person retreats to share what they’re most excited about in 2023. Between new conversations around writing a book, learning new languages, competing in an Ironman, and AI and ChatGPT, you’ll want to tune into the few surprises Rob and Kira have up their sleeve. Tune into the podcast to find out: Who’s going to learn Italian – Rob or Kira? Did Rob actually bike 200 miles in one day?! Is Kira going to be the new Ironman? The tentative releases of Rob and Kira’s books. Is there a ghost in Kira’s photo? The power of in-person retreats and masterminds. Will there be a new AI workshop for copywriters? Who should worry about AI? Where will the next Think Tank retreats take place? A Copywriter Club spin-off podcast is happening… what’s it about? Find out the answers by tuning into the podcast below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: If you'd like to be the first to know about the AI workshop + limited series all about AI and ChatGPT, then click here to add yourself to the list! The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Welcome to the Copywriter Club podcast. We don't have an intro today, but we were just talking about the fact that maybe we haven't ever even said our names on the podcast other than occasionally talking to each other. So this is the Copywriter Club podcast with Rob Marsh and Kira Hug. Kira Hug:  Right. Rob Marsh:  What else should we say about ourselves? I don't know. Kira Hug:  Well, Rob, so we're at the beginning of February. What are you really excited about right now? Personally, professionally? Rob Marsh:  Personally, a couple of things are going on. So outside of work, I am taking an Italian class with my wife and my oldest daughter, and the class actually started a couple of weeks ago. I haven't been able to take the first two classes because you and I have been traveling out of town. We had our retreat; then we had our mastermind group that met together. And so today that we're recording is my first day that I get to go to this class. So I'm hoping that after missing the first two classes, I'm not hopelessly far behind in my attempts to learn Italian. So I'm looking forward to that. Kira Hug:  You got to prove it. You have to say something. Rob Marsh:  Well, I haven't been to class yet, so I don't have anything to say, but I will eventually. I think, maybe I even said this on the podcast once. I can't remember, but Italian to me, is the most beautiful language. It's musical. When I hear people speaking Italian, it sounds like they're singing in a lot of ways. My wife lived in Italy for close to a year at one point, and so we have some friends in Italy that we've connected with over the years, once or twice, and usually, it's my wife talking to them at dinner or sitting around their homes, and I'm sitting there quietly picking out a word or two that I might understand because I took high school Spanish and there are some similarities there. And you know what? It's just time for me to pick up another language, so in addition to the very little Spanish that I can understand and joke about speaking, maybe I'll learn Italian. And so yeah, that's going on in- Kira Hug:  That's so fun. Rob Marsh: ... In my life right now.  Yeah, it's a lot easier than training for a marathon and 112 mile bike race and a two-mile swim all at the same time. Kira Hug:  I don't think it is. I am slightly jealous because I do want to learn another language desperately, but I also realize I tend to take on too much. And so I was like, don't take on any other goals for now; just focus on what's in front of you. But then I was thinking if I'm training for an Ironman, there's a lot of time I have to just listen and think, and maybe that is the best time to learn a new language, just to listen to it while you're on a long run. I don't know if you're going to do that and integrate the two together in your running and your bike riding. Rob Marsh:  That's a good idea. I hadn't. I have thought about watching movies in Italian or TV shows, having those on in the background and trying to pick out what you know. I know that that's one of the ways that you can get closer to being fluent in a language, but actually putting on Italian podcasts or that kind of thing as I'm running is actually a really good idea. So maybe I will do more of that. We'll see. But yeah, catch us up on where you are with the marathon that you've got to be running in eight months, nine months?  Not Marathon. Sorry. Triathlon. Kira Hug:  Yeah. Well, I signed up officially, so I have shared with the community that I wanted to do an Ironman, and then of course, I waited till the registration fee dramatically jumped up. And so now, I officially registered last week for the Ironman in Arizona in November. It felt like that was a perfect amount of time. I have enough time to train, but not too much time where I don't train hard enough now. And Arizona seemed like an easier course. I don't think there is an easier course for an Ironman, but I think I just don't know what I'm getting into fully. And I think that ignorance is bliss. Otherwise, you wouldn't do anything. You wouldn't have kids. You wouldn't start a business. You wouldn't run an Ironman or compete in an Iron Man. But I do talk to people occasionally, like you. You were telling me about your 200... 100-mile bike ride, right? Rob Marsh:  200, yeah. Kira Hug:  200-mile bike ride.  And you were just kind of telling me how difficult it was. And so I think when I talk to people who have done any type of long-distance event outside of a marathon because I've done a marathon, I understand how hard that is. It's just a good reminder when I feel other people's anxiety and stress over it, I pick up on that and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, what am I getting into?" So you warned me a little bit about the biking part. And so I'm waiting for my Peloton to arrive because it's hard to bike in Maine right now, but it hasn't arrived yet. So I'm ready to start training for the biking portion, which makes me a little more nervous. Rob Marsh:  That's the fun portion. Riding the bike is the fun portion. Kira Hug:  I think so. Rob Marsh:  So I told you about this race, and just for everybody who's listening, it's a race called LoTaJa. If you want to, you can look it up. And when I was a kid or a teenager, a group of guys just started riding their bikes between Logan, Utah and Jackson, Wyoming, and they would take this route that kind of went up through Idaho. And it's really pretty, the route's not quite the same as what it was back then because the small towns that it goes through can't support what this race has become. But as a teenager, I would hear about these, it was maybe 20 or 30 guys that would ride this... And it wasn't even a race at that time, but it was this ride that they would do at the end of the biking season. And we would hear about them finishing and we're like, "That'd be so cool to join that ride." And then, over time, it became a race. And now there are, I think, more than a thousand people who participate every year. And it's kind of crazy. The elevations, the elevation gains, there are three mountains that you go over the top of. And the first time that I trained with it... Or for it, I had always had this in the back of my head. I wanted to ride it. And one of the guys I was working with at the time when I was living in Idaho is the beginning of... Very end of June, beginning of July. And he said, "Hey, we've got this extra slot on our team. Somebody dropped out. Do you want to ride it with us?" And so the race was literally in eight weeks. I didn't own a road bike at the time. I had only been riding my mountain bike. And so immediately I said yes, which was crazy because again, 200 miles in a single day is not the kind of thing that you should be doing after eight weeks of practice, but- Kira Hug:  In a single day? Rob Marsh:  Yes, in a single day. So it's 200 miles in a single day. So I ordered a bike online, had it shipped to my house, and within six and a half weeks or so, I rode every day that I could to try to get my miles up. And I suffered. That first time I really suffered. It was hard. I didn't think I was going to finish. There was a woman that was riding about my same pace, and we sort of paced each other for about 150 miles, which was really helpful. I don't know who she is. I've never seen her since, but maybe she was an angel guiding my way. Kira Hug:  Maybe she listens to the podcast. Rob Marsh:  Maybe so. But I finished the first time and then I was like, "Okay, I'm going to do it right." So yeah, I've done it five times solo. I've done it another time with a team, but the other times I've trained, I've taken eight months to train and make sure that I'm riding several hundred miles a week before I get to... And it's gone much better. But yeah, that's what goes through my head when I hear you talking about training for an Ironman. I'm like, okay, not only are you doing a massive bike ride, but you're also running a full marathon and you're swimming. I don't know if it's open water or what in Arizona, but you're swimming somewhere for a couple of miles. It is an undertaking, and I'm a little bit jealous but also still happy it's not me. Kira Hug:  Where did most of the pain come from on the first bike ride where you weren't fully trained for it? What was the pain you were feeling? Rob Marsh:  I think it was just not being prepared for the actual distance. Because I hadn't been training,

Steph Trovato is our guest on the 329th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Steph is a copywriter who has been able to scale her business to $300k a year in just 3 years. In this episode, she shares the tools, strategies, support, and systems she’s put in place along the way to make it happen. Here’s a breakdown of the conversation: How Steph went from marketer for dental practices to freelancer and copywriter. Why she had to make the jump to full-time in her business and how she earned her first clients. Her pitching method – 100 pitches a week?! The most important step in the pitching process. How long she had to pitch before her business was sustainable. Her mindset and perspective shifts as she went full-time in her business. The transition from one-off projects to robust retainers. Can you be profitable and NOT be a launch copywriter? The power of being upfront about your pricing. How to set up a profitable retainer for your business. The reality of finding the perfect work schedule for your business and lifestyle. Steph’s mamba mentality – her approach to business, resilience, and dedication. Is it a sacrifice forever or just for a season? Here come those boundaries again… Why are they so vital for business growth and success? What really is a CEO retreat and how does affect business? How Steph breaks down her CEO retreats and how she stays productive. Why you need to find a supportive group of people who understand what you do. Creating goals that aren’t monetarily based. Creating truth to your purpose and the power you give to those around you. Tune into the episode by hitting play or reading the transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Join The Copywriter Accelerator waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Stephanie's LinkedIn The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Is it really possible to make six figures writing copy? How about three times that much. You might be thinking, "yeah, it's a possibility, but only after decades or longer of cultivating the right clients and developing your sales skills." That's certainly one pathway there. But our guest for today's episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast did it in just two years while primarily writing websites and content, not sales copy. Copywriter, Stephanie Trovato shares how she launched her business as a side hustle during COVID, then went full-time to avoid going back to the office. Two years later, she just cleared over $300,000 in her business. Steph told us how she did it and she filled us in on her CEO retreats, how she manages her time and family, and how the Copywriter Think Tank helped her do it. Kira Hug:  But before we get into our interview with Steph, we want to talk about our sponsor for this episode, The Copywriter Think Tank. So I have all this promotional copy in front of me that I should read about the Think Tank and how amazing it is. But I think it's better just to listen to the episode because Steph is a Think Tank member. She's in year two of the Think Tank, and I think she is one of the best examples of what the Think Tank is all about. It's about figuring out what else is possible for your business beyond the basics and beyond what you ever thought was possible for yourself and for your family, and for your own business and for your revenue. And so if you resonate with anything Steph is sharing in this episode, consider a Think Tank mastermind and apply. We'll jump on a call and discuss whether or not it's a good fit for you. But I think the best way to sum it up is like the Think Tank attracts people like Steph who want to challenge themselves and think differently about what they're building and explore what's possible for you. So, hope you can check that out if you're interested and we'll talk to you about it soon. You can learn more by visiting copywriterthinktank.com. Rob Marsh:  Okay. As we usually do, let's kick off this episode with some details about how Stephanie built a business that honestly earned $300,000 last year. Stephanie Trovato:  I ended up as a copywriter because of COVID. I always did copywriting because I'm a marketer and I used to do dental marketing and wrote the website copy and social media and all that stuff. And I always liked it. And as a kid, I always liked writing in general. So I thought freelance writing would be a good way to earn some extra money because I was tired of waitressing to pay for daycare in addition to my full-time job. And so right before 2020, I started freelancing for Huffington Post. I made 150 an article and it was like so much money, like I have made 700 in one month and I was like, "oh my God, I could pay for daycare. This is so great. This is so much money." And I decided to do it right from the beginning, so I made myself into a little LLC on December 30th, 2019, and I opened a business account and did all that. And then we all know what happened in March of 2020. And from there I just went full force because I didn't have a job because no one was allowed to go to the dentist. I had nothing else to do. So I was like, "well, I'll see what this is." And in the beginning it was interesting because it was a lot of messaging because people didn't know how to talk about COVID or how to approach their customers or the take they were supposed to have. And from there I just blew up. Rob Marsh:  So let's dive into that a bit because going from writing content for Huffington Post for 150 a post to blowing up, it feels like there's a piece missing there. So what did you do in order to leverage those first few content things that you had done into additional clients? How did you use that to find that next client and then to keep laddering up? Because clearly, and we'll get to this, your business is not made up of writing content for $150 a post anymore. Stephanie Trovato:  Correct. So what was really great about Huffington Post is it had a byline, which has this proof, it’s social proof, it shows that you know how to write and it shows that you really did it. And so I had, by the end of December, I had seven bylines. So from there I took a pitching course, like a cold pitching course and learned what pitching is, how to do it, who to target, how to target, like research, what to write, all of that. And I had a big Google sheet of a million people that I wanted to pitch and I sent 20 pitches a day and I started with lifestyle brands because that's where my bylines were. And I also reached out to someone I used to work with at a previous company, and she was an editor at Apartment Therapy and they had a bunch of articles like that also. So she gave me a continuous one and I had a byline there too. So every time I sent a pitch email, I had my proof. I was like, "here's where I wrote for this person and here's where I wrote for this." And that is what slowly gave me the courage to keep writing. Kira Hug:  So can we break it down for anyone who's not familiar, like what is a byline? How did you get the first seven? I mean, I know they start to build and it's like, "well, look what I've done here." But at the beginning, how did you start to get the first few? Stephanie Trovato:  So byline is when you're the author of the article and your name is listed. It's great. A lot of companies don't do it, but a lot do. And the first article I wrote was for holiday content. And a friend of mine had posted on her Instagram story, like a friend needs help writing articles. I didn't know who it was for, what it was for. And I was like, sure, why not? I found out it was the Huffington Post. The editor gave me the first topic and then she was like, "if you have any ideas, let me know." So a lot of editors in those types of publications except pitches and ideas. So I had a few ideas for gift lists like if someone just lost somebody and gift list for new parents and things like that. And she was pretty open to it and said yes to everything. And that's how I got so many, because she had like, like those kinds of publications, they just have a budget for the month. So they're like, here I have, you can write five articles. And I think I just got lucky in that way, and that's the only time I'll say I was lucky because after that it was hard work. But at the beginning it was luck. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Speaking of hard work, 20 pitches a week is a ton. Stephanie Trovato:  No a day. Rob Marsh:  Oh, sorry. 20 pitches a day. So- Kira Hug:  That's intense. Rob Marsh:  100 pitches a week. That sounds nuts, I think to almost, even if you've got a system. So let's talk about that pitch. How much of each of those pitches was original? What were you doing? How did you identify the clients? Let's really go deep on this system that you used to get yourself out in front of the clients you wanted to work with. Stephanie Trovato:  Sure. So I made some buckets. So I had my lifestyle content bucket, dental marketing and healthcare in general. And then my previous experience in marketing operations and startups and digital marketing in general, like more agency side. So I had those little buckets and I literally would just sit there and Google digital marketing agency near me, digital marketing agency in this town, in that town, use different search terms and see what came up. There's millions. And then from there I would go see if they had a blog, if they did, great. Because in the beginning I just pitched blogs. So I would see if they had a blog or not. If they did, I would see how often they updated it. You could kind of tell, like a lot of people put the dates so you could see if all of a sudden it just totally dropped and you're like, "oh,