The Copywriter Club Podcast

Andrea Grassi is our guest on the 328th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Andrea is a serial entrepreneur with 6 businesses, and he shares how he’s able to manage, build, and grow each business. If you’ve ever thought about expanding your sources of income, you’ll want to tune into this episode. Here’s how the conversation goes: How Andrea became a marketer and entrepreneur. The reality of growing a business. Why he decided to start a second business… and a third business and… The most important part about starting a business. A breakdown of each of his vastly different businesses. Why he doesn’t need to be the expert in every business. The ingredients needed to build any business. How to create profit in your business and create a successful chain. Why your revenue isn’t that important – here’s what is. The importance of paying attention to each weak link in your business. The 3 pillars to any successful business. How to begin making a marketing plan. The mindshifts that take place while growing multiple businesses. Are you making it harder than it needs to be? The 3 positions you hold as a business owner. How to calculate your business value in each position. Finding out when it’s time to grow a team. How to look for the right business partner. The balance between multiple businesses, business partners, and employees. How Andrea breaks up his time and energy between each business. Measuring success through KPI’s. Splitting the stakes in business – what’s the first step? Are you really working or are you just working? Why you need to add in your rest block FIRST. The importance of deadlines for you and your team. The benefits of compartmentalizing. Andrea’s biggest strength and weakness are the same? How riding horses has anything to do with business. Listen to the episode or read the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Join The Copywriter Accelerator waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Andrea's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  There's a well known and much shared idea that says that the average millionaire has seven different streams of income. They might earn money from serving clients in their business, from selling evergreen products, from a property rental, from stocks and other financial assets and so on. Our guest for today's episode of The Copywriter Club podcast is Andrea Grassi. He's a partner in six or seven different businesses that generate income for him and more importantly, he makes a major contribution as the marketing expert in each of the businesses he runs. And because running even a single business is a big challenge for most of us, we wanted to find out how he does it all. How does he find partners? What exactly does he do in each of his businesses? And maybe how more copywriters can create businesses like the ones Andrea has. There's lots of great business building advice in this episode, so be sure to stick around for all of it. Kira Hug:  This podcast episode is sponsored by New Orleans. This is a city that Rob and I are currently in right now. We're together in New Orleans. We're actually here for our think tank Mastermind retreat, which we just wrapped last night. And Rob, did you have a good time? Rob Marsh:  That was amazing. Hanging out with these guys. They're doing such cool things with their businesses and just talking about the challenges they have, working through some of those solutions and also listening to the presentations, the speakers that we had, talking about all kinds of things from processes to running a minimalist business that works, people who are doing amazing things, running six figure businesses, sometimes working three or four hours a day, four or five days a week. Yeah, it's been really insightful. Kira Hug:  It was so fun to have everyone in this same room together. It's in a really intimate space for a couple of days just because we weren't able to do it for a couple of years, and were finally able to start gathering together in person and doing more than even just learning together, which was fun to hear all the different presenters and learn, but we also had a lot of fun. We went out to dinner, we went on a ghost tour, a cemetery tour. We went out to a comedy show. It was just great to get out, and New Orleans is such a magical city and place to visit. I feel like it was the best place for us all to be. And so it was all part of the Think Tank because that's what the Think Tank is about. It's about gathering copywriters together so you can share brilliant ideas with each other and build your own network and meet new friends, build your network of other copywriters and create new experiences. Get yourself out of your comfort zone. Even traveling here was out of my comfort zone and just putting yourself out there in a new way to continue to grow as a business owner and to continue to grow as a person. And that's what the Think Tank's all about. And if that's something that you would be interested in and being part of a mastermind and being part of a retreat and multiple retreats, then check out the Think Tank and apply. If you're interested in joining, we can jump on a call and talk through it with you to see if it's a good fit. Rob Marsh:  And to apply, go to copywriterthinktank.com. And now let's jump into the interview with Andrea. Kira Hug:  So, we do want to know how you ended up as a marketer and entrepreneur. Andrea Grassi:  Okay. So, long story short, I never had the feeling to have a job. I always wanted to create something, so the first thing is that I never had a job ever. When I was 18, I was just working for a real estate company going around to look for property to be sold, and I was paying on a commission. But then when I was around 19, I started my first company, let's call it a small business. And then I started to understand that wasn't enough to be passionate about something. In order to create profits. There were a lot of things that I was missing, how to market my products, how to sell my products, how to make the numbers at the end of the month, mark a positive sign and all that kind of stuff. So, just because I'm very curious to learn things, I started to study this and study that and go deep in these things and I mean try to unveil something that I was missing. And then suddenly I understood that I was liking that. I mean, I was satisfied and happy. So, I started to grow that business. And then probably just because I'm curious, I started to look around and I realized that there were opportunities around me. I mean, people have needs and nobody was satisfying those needs. And then I said to myself, okay, why don't I try to do this? And then the second business came out and suddenly I realized that there were two different businesses in two different markets, but the main concept that were at the basis of those businesses were the same things. The marketing rules, the accountant things or the people management or all the other things that were around the business were the same. So, I said to myself, or maybe if I start another one the year was going on and was getting more expert, and then I said, yeah, maybe if I start another one, I can use the experience that I did to have the business work properly.   And then the third business came and then the fourth, and basically I was right. Not that I was right, it's how things work. The basis, the foundation of the business. I'm sorry for my rotten English. The basis, the foundation of a business are the same, doesn't matter. Yes, there are little changes, but the main column, the milestones are the same. So, it is probably like when you learn languages, it's hard to learn the first one, the second one is a little bit easier than the first one. The third one gets easier. And so and so and so. Now I'm 49 with six businesses up and running. One of the past businesses has been closed, another one has been sold. And a few months ago I did things that I never did in my life. I bought a business. And so this is my long story made short, I hope. Rob Marsh:  Just to be clear, because we didn't say this at the beginning, but you are in Italy. Andrea Grassi:  Yeah, I'm based in Italy. I live in Italy. Rob Marsh:  And the business environment in Italy is a little bit different than here in the States. It's not always as easy to start a business. There's a lot of things that go on. And so the fact that you've gone through a lot of those challenges is even maybe more impressive than if we were talking to somebody who's started this many businesses in the States. But just briefly describe what the businesses are that you started. What were you doing in each of those businesses? Andrea Grassi:  Basically I grew up in the training and coaching environment. So, two businesses are about that, a company that does training and coaching services in the personal development area. One of the important things, in all these businesses, I am not alone, I don't like the model of the solopreneur because I mean I like to bond. I like to create teams. And I think that I don't know everything and some of my strong points are also some of my weak points. And that's why I trust and believe that if a business if you have at least two business partners, it's much better than one. So, in the training and coaching company that does personal development services, I have three business partners and I don't run a lot of seminars there because most of my time is into another business that does coaching and training programs for small entrepreneurs. And in that business we have a big revenue stream,

Mike Garner is our guest on the 327th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Mike is a message consultant who focuses on story-based emails that build connections and convert for small businesses. If you’ve ever struggled to share your story in a way that’s true to you, this episode will give you the inspiration to make it happen. Here’s what we chat about: How Mike went from translator to copywriter and how he uses his past experience today. The art of copywriting vs the art of other forms of writing – how’s it different? How you can use your title or label to your advantage. Why Mike decided to “sit down and do stuff” aka give copywriting a fair go. How digging out the trash, shame, and insecurities will make you a better writer and business owner. Developing your rags-to-riches story. What’s the point of writing for ourselves? Is anyone actually paying attention? Is that a good thing? Why you need to get over yourself… Mike’s personal memoir book writing process. When it might be a good idea to get back to the foundations of your business. Are you neglecting your own business, dreams, story? How The Copywriter Accelerator and Think Tank have given Mike much needed validation and how they’ve helped grow his business. Everyone’s in a rush… baby steps are great. Tune into the episode below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Join The Copywriter Accelerator waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Mike's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM     Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Great writers of all kinds have at least one thing in common. They tell stories in copy, in content, in books, in poetry, sometimes even on packaging and postcards. There's something magical about the way that stories hold our attention, and our guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is copywriter Mike Garner, who just finished an entire book about stories, a book that includes many of his own. While we were talking with Mike, we took the opportunity to also ask him about his experience with the Copywriter Accelerator program, what he learned from it, and how it's informed what he's doing in this business today. There's a lot of good advice that you might be able to apply in your own business. Kira Hug:  Rob, you are really good at writing introductions. I just have to note that right here, that was well written, well done. Rob Marsh:  I don't know. I don't know about that. Kira Hug:  I cannot write an introduction for the life of me, so I'm impressed. Before we jump into the conversation, this episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Accelerator, which Rob just mentioned. It is our five-month mastermind/coaching program for copywriters who want to build a profitable, sustainable copywriting business and make 10K a month in their business consistently. If you have interest or want to learn more about the Copywriter Accelerator, especially as we talk about it today with Mike. Go to the copywriteraccelerator.com to learn more about it. Doors do close, so fair warning, doors close to the program today at midnight when this episode goes live. If you're on the fence, definitely move fast. Rob Marsh:  Yes. Kira Hug:  Okay, well let's jump into the interview with Mike. Mike Garner:  Where do I start? Well, I've been a freelancer for 25 odd years. I was living in France. I lived in France for 20 years. I was in about, it's about 10 years into my time in France perhaps, and I got to the end of the road in terms of employment. I've been a travel agent, but I lost that particular job. I trained to be a teacher, an English teacher in France. It's a competitive exam, so if they want to take 2000 candidates for example, sorry, and you come 2001st, well that's just tough on you in the hierarchy if you like, and I missed it by 0.4%. Which was very galling at the time, but now I thank my lucky stars because me and the French education system wouldn't have got along. But I got to the stage where I thought, "Well what can I do? I know I can speak English, I can speak French. Let's be a translator." This is the end of 1996 and you don't know what you don't know. The first translation I took was my one and only ever medical translation. This is in the days before AltaVista and even before Google, I just had a French English dictionary, like 20 years I had at school, and I did this translation with this thing. God knows how I got paid for it in the end, but I did. Anyway, to cut a very long story short, I built this thing up, starting by being amazed that people gave me work and then paid me for it, but you work things through. Then I got bored by being a, I got bored with translation because I got bored with translating other people's bad French, because I heard some horrendous things and sorry engineers, but engineers battle in any language, so I just morphed into a copywriter because that was more interesting. I was an okay copywriter, but I'd say I was paying the bills but not much more. I wasn't setting the wall of the light in anything, but I was happy doing what I was doing. I feel we're jumping into the next stage of the question you haven't asked me yet, but it's developed from there into more of a writer. 2020 came along and there were a number of life-changing events. I worked with Margo Aaron on my writing voice. I did the old MBA and then I fell into The Accelerator, and that is the end of the beginning as it were. Rob Marsh:  That's quite the path. I'm curious, Mike, if anybody who's listening is going to be thinking, "Well he doesn't sound very French." What took you to France in the first place? Why leave England and even head overseas? Mike Garner:  I did a summer job between the second and third year university at the British rail office in Paris selling tickets, really, and that's how I learned and that's how I really learned, because I thought I spoke French. I did really good, but when I went there, but that's when I really learned to speak French because I was told to answer the phone, and that's when you noticed the difference between what the language you learn at school and the language that's spoken by other people. Without going into all the details, I basically stayed. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, that was my next question, so a summer job that's one thing. I went to France when I was younger, backpack around a little bit, but I didn't stay. What was the hook that made you stick around? Mike Garner:  Oh dear. Well, I went back and did my third year, then I went back to France because I had a job and a girlfriend, so the rest is history. Kira Hug:  That's it. The girlfriend. Yep. Okay. Mike Garner:  It's always a pull. Kira Hug:  Yes. I will want to hear more about your translation experience because that is definitely not my background. I'm interested in what lessons you pulled from that skillset or that experience or those jobs that you apply in your writing today. Mike Garner:  I think that is actually, there's a couple of periods. That's actually where, in all seriousness, that's where I learned to write properly I think, because obviously, I was at school, I didn't learn writing per se. I did a history degree and I wrote fairly academically. Then for all the time art was, I didn't do as much as I wanted to, I was desperate to be a writer, but I just couldn't get going. I couldn't find the inspiration. It was really hard, and it was almost when I first started translating that I was writing by proxy. I was writing through other people's words, they were boring technical documents most of the time, but it was still writing. It's probably just as well that I've lost the floppy discs now that my original translations were on, because I know now they were pretty horrendous. And it was maybe just me, and because I was living in France, I was writing English tainted by French a little bit. There were one or two expressions that you think you should be able to say in English but you don't. It was only when I moved back here into UK in 2003 and surrounded by the actual language that real people speak that I really became good and could write in a proper way, to write like the rest of us do almost. From that point of view, I think the one thing about speaking a foreign language is that it gets you to focus particularly on your mother tongue for a better word. You do think more about it and I think you pay more attention to it. It's difficult for me to say because I haven't seen it from the other point of view. I was not one of these people that was writing as a kid and writing stories when I was 10 or something like that because a lot of copywriters did. I came to writing very, very late. I used to read a lot, but I always thought that writing was something that other people did, and it's only really in the last couple of years that I've come to describe myself as a writer rather than just a copywriter. A copywriter is a different form of writer, just like a novel writer is. Just like a ballroom dancer and a ballet dancer are two different types of dancer. We're a subset of the writers because we tend to think that writers, well they write novels, don't they? But I consider what I do as an art even if I'm writing emails. Rob Marsh:  That I think that's common with a lot of copywriters. Mike, you used the word you said you morphed into being a copywriter. Mike Garner:  Yes. Rob Marsh:  How does that happen? How do you go from what you were doing? Take us through the steps. Mike Garner:  Yeah, it basically means I did copywriting while I was doing translation. Rob Marsh:  And so what did you do to make that happen? Because obviously they're different and it's a different client,

Tara Lassiter is our guest on the 326th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. After a 12-year career as a model and actress for QVC, Tara shifted into the copywriting space and became an email strategist. Whether you need to up your networking skills, need to make faster decisions, or you want to dabble into the world of TikTok, you’ll find yourself scribbling notes through the entire episode. Why Tara went from model and actress for QVC to email strategist. How is QVC similar to copywriting? Where she found her first copywriting clients. How The Copywriter Accelerator helped her propel her business forward. Do you brag about yourself? Here’s why you should. Dating vs marrying your decisions. How to hone in on what your audience wants to see from you. How to go from overthinking to taking action and accomplishing. Starting on TikTok – where do you begin? Create two versions of yourself… Here’s how. How to get more done with a limited amount of hours. Navigating the challenge of shifting from copywriter to strategist. Why you absolutely need to find a network and how it’ll change your business (and life). How to tap into your current network if you’ve never done it before. The added benefit of creating frameworks and how they help you AND your clients. Being realistic about your time and why setting realistic expectations is vital. How Tara balances being a homeschool mom, business owner, and wife. Is it really about being the breadwinner? The advice she would give to her past self. Listen to the episode below or read the transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Join The Copywriter Accelerator waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Tara's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 157 Episode 269   Full Transcript:   Rob Marsh:  Imagine for a minute selling more than a million dollars worth of a product in about an hour's time. What should you get paid for something like that? What would you learn from that experience, and how could you repeat that with other clients? Our guest for today's episode of the Copywriter Club podcast did exactly that. Copywriter and customer journey strategist, Tara Lassiter, helped sell a million dollars of lotion on QVC and made $100 for her effort. She joined us to share how that experience, along with the Copywriter Accelerator and a great network that she has built around her, helped launch her career as a copywriter. We think you're going to like this episode. Kira Hug:  But first, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Accelerator. Shocking, right? Tara was a member, she's an Accelerator alumni member, so you'll hear a little bit more about the program in this conversation. Before that, it is a five-month coaching and Mastermind program for copywriters who want to build a profitable copywriting business and get closer to the 10K-a-month mark. If you feel like that could be you and you want the support and the systems and the blueprints to help you get there, along with coaching from the two of us and the support of a tight-knit community, we've bundled it all into the Copywriter Accelerator. We know it works because we've been doing it for five years now. So if you have any interest, you can jump onto the waitlist, and we will drop the link to that in the show notes. Tara Lassiter:  It started a long time ago, a little over a decade ago. In my past life, I was a model and an actress. My main client was QVC. There was one particular show, an hour-long show, where I had rubbed lotion all over my body for an hour. At the end of the hour everyone started to cheer. It was because we had sold a million dollars worth of body butter. I started to cheer and cheer and cheer. Then it dawned on me that I had made a hundred bucks in that million-dollar hour. I wasn't jealous or anything, but I was so intrigued. How did they make a million dollars in an hour? So I started to do research on buyer psychology and marketing. It led me to copywriting because I didn't even know what the word was. I understood that there were triggers that were happening within the hour while we were on television that encouraged people to buy. So I started buying copywriting courses and books. I bought John Carlton's... I think it's called Kick-Ass Copywriting in 2014 or something like that. I've just pulled up the receipt. So I've been reading books and doing courses, but modeling was kind of golden handcuffs. I enjoyed it, and I worked with people that I loved. It wasn't a bad gig. It paid well and it was really flexible. I got to travel. So it was really cool. I wasn't able to pursue copywriting until the pandemic shut everything down. Then there were a lot of castings that disappeared, and the ones that were, they would say you need to show proof that you had COVID already. Because before there were vaccines, they wanted to make sure that there was a bit of a bubble. Because I didn't have that, I couldn't work. That gave me time to jump back into the books and into the courses and to say, "All right, well, it's now or never. I'm going to try this out." That's what I really did. I just started going back online, taking courses, reaching out to people that I knew, writing anything. I'd always been the person in the family who wrote cover letters and resumes for everyone, LinkedIn profiles, just anything I could get my hands on to try to start getting some practice. Rob Marsh:  I want to hear more about QVC. I know you do that a bit. I've read Anthony Sullivan's book, You Get What You Pitch For, which is all about his experience at QVC and selling on QVC. Were you just modeling? Did you have speaking parts? What were you doing to sell...? Again, I know you only made a hundred dollars for that hour, but selling a million dollars for the product, even though you said it was a big deal, that feels like a really big deal. So what was the role? Tara Lassiter:  They were experimenting a lot with what models could do because we were basically personalities that the people at home could relate to. I was able to speak sometimes, but a lot of times I was just silent. A lot of what I learned came from behind the scenes because QVC is very particular about who goes on air. They're very particular about their audience. A lot of times the founder of the company was who came to sell their own products. So if I worked for Martha Stewart that day, I worked with Martha Stewart. I would always ask, "What's your favorite book?" You know what I mean? "Can I hear your story, classes, podcasts that you listen to, anything?" I would always try to pick their brains and see what got them to that point. That's really what helped me to understand marketing strategy on a grand scale, because I wasn't content with just being a model. I always wanted to see the journey for the person behind the business, and I got to actually reach out and touch them. It's a small place. It's not like the celebrities are separate from the regular people. So I got to really interact with a lot of cool people and ask questions and go out to dinner and try products before they went on air. So it was a very experimental role. Kira Hug:  So you were in multiple QVC campaigns and promotions, not just that one? Tara Lassiter:  Oh, definitely. I was there for 12 years. I was usually there between 10, 20 hours a week, so 10 or 20 shows for over a decade every week, so I kind of lived there. I spent my 20s there. It's where I grew up. Kira Hug:  Have you written a book about this yet? Tara Lassiter:  No, no. I just read Joe Sugarman's book though. I don't know. Kira Hug:  I feel like this is a book. Tara Lassiter:  You feel like it's a book? Rob Marsh:  There's definitely a book here, for sure. Kira Hug:  In the meantime, the book can be this interview, but that's fascinating. Now I have so many different questions. One is, let's just talk about the triggers. Because you started with that specific promotion for that lotion, what were some of the triggers that contributed to that million-dollar campaign? Tara Lassiter:  Definitely. They used a lot of one-time-only, which would be a price that was only available for a short period of time that now I know is scarcity. There was also lots of bundling going on, so you got a value based on buying groups of products together, and they were able to bake in profit that way. The countdown timers and how many sold in an hour for some social proof and that kind of pressure. So I saw in the end all of those copywriting things that now I'm like, "Oh, yeah, that happens at every webinar." It's essentially a 24-hour webinar that's happening, and then the product just changes every 6, 8, 12 minutes. Essentially, it's just a live webinar that's happening all day and all night. Rob Marsh:  I love that. When I got my start, and especially it was before the internet was huge, so a lot of direct response television is where I would sort of learn it. Of course, QVC is basically hour after hour. Anyway, I love the lessons that you pull from that because it is a sales page an hour, and what they're doing in video echoes a lot of what we do in email sales pages today. So good takeaway. Let's talk about how you then took that, and you said that you read a couple of books. You started really saying, "This is the time." How did you go out, find your first clients, start your own business, what did that look like? Tara Lassiter:  It started out with me just reaching out to my network. People knew... So backtrack a little bit. Once I got a taste of how I could use marketing to make money outside of QVC, I started an Amazon store with my husband,

Over 271 episodes later, we’ve FINALLY brought back Chanti Zak for the 325th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. From solo copywriter to agency owner, Chanti breaks down her journey over the last few years, and how she became known as THE quiz funnel expert. Her insights on growing a thriving business are ones you won’t want to miss. Here’s what we talk about: Why Chanti made the decision to hire a team and how it’s helped her grow her OWN business. Hitting a 50/50 revenue mark between clients and courses. What unique advantage do copywriters have over other business owners? How to use your energy for what you love and avoid burnout (especially when growing a family). Who was her first team member and what did they do? When to start saying “no” to client work and “yes” to your own business. How to set your team up for success and realizations that will save you time, money, and a headache. Why your business needs to be more like Mcdonald’s. The importance of having a system for everything in your business. How to break the people-pleasing pattern. Why you need to create boundaries and implement them. Where does Chanti’s copywriting energy go nowadays? Mindset shifts to go from copywriter to CEO. The challenges of writing for yourself vs. writing for clients. Should you become an e-commerce copywriter? The negative bias around shifting your content. How quizzes can work for YOUR business and why they’re still effective. Tools for building a growth mindset and handling tough conversations. How The Copywriter Accelerator helped establish foundations for her business. What’s possible in a short period of time? Press play to listen to the episode or read the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Join The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Chanti's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 54 Episode 141 Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  If you listen to last week's episode, you know that from time to time, we like to have previous guests come back and talk about the evolution of their businesses since the last time that we spoke. This week, we're doing it again. Our guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is former Copywriter Accelerator member and former Copywriter Think Tank member, Chanti Zak. Chanti shared the details about the three phases of her business that she's gone through over the last couple of years since we last talked to her and when she first started out as a copywriter. And if you are just starting out or you're thinking about what your business could become in the future, you're going to find a lot of inspiration in what Chanti has to share today. Kira Hug:  But first, this podcast episode is sponsored by The Copywriter Accelerator, which is our five-month mastermind/coaching program for copywriters who want to build a profitable copywriting business and make roughly $10,000 a month in their business consistently. So if that grabbed your attention, if that's what you want to do in the New Year, then join the wait list for The Copywriter Accelerator, and you can do that by going to thecopywriteraccelerator.com. Rob Marsh:  Okay, let's get to our interview with Chanti. Kira Hug:  Let's just rewind a little bit. We don't have to cover everything that's happened since we last chatted, but can you share a highlight reel with one of your highlights from the last two years post-COVID? Chanti Zak:  Oh my gosh. From the last two years, probably one of the biggest things has been building a team and just working with a lot more brilliant humans and learning how to ask for help and support in my business, but also in life. Rob Marsh:  We'll link to the first interview. In fact, we've talked to you a couple times on the podcast, if I'm not mistaken, Chanti. But we're going to link back to those so that people can catch up and hear how you built your business and how you literally went from getting laid off to creating this business. But we should probably also not only have you just built the team, but let's talk a little bit about where you are in your business, the kinds of things that you're doing today, the kinds of courses and work that you do for the clients. When we talked that first time, you didn't have this huge roster of famous, big name marketers and copywriters and the who's who of the internet that you have today. So tell us about that business. Chanti Zak:  Yeah. Oh my gosh, it's been a wild ride. So yeah, I think the first time I was on the pod was totally solo, really just figuring things out and I feel like I had no clue where I was headed or what I was doing. And today, I sometimes feel the same way, but I have a little agency, so that's a big change because demand for quizzes became so impossible for me to meet by myself that it was time to bring other people in. And so the agency; learning how to run that, that's been a big change. And then I think the first one was on the pod, I didn't have a course either, and I was very much behind the scenes and putting all my energy into everybody else's business and not my own. So shifting from that to, "Okay, I'm going to use and discover my own voice and build my own audience and use the skills I'm using for clients for myself." And that's been a journey too. So Grow with Quizzes is my main course, and I probably am 50/50 now in terms of revenue from clients and from the course and other smaller courses that I've created. And that was my goal for a long time, was to get to that 50/50 mark. And so, now I'm there and wondering kind of what's next. Kira Hug:  Congratulations. Because reaching that 50/50 mark is not easy, and I know it's a goal for many copywriters we talked to. I want to go back in time and just go to the moment or the moments when you were thinking through your strategy and thinking through, "Do I want to build an agency, do I want to be a 50/50 agency in courses?" How did you work out the plan so that you could start to implement and find people and build it out? Chanti Zak:  So I think as copywriters, we're in a unique position because we see directly the impact and results that words and stories and knowing how to sell has for our clients and seeing that for them necessitates seeing it for ourselves. So that was the shift for me was like, "Oh, what I did this thing for a client that made them millions or grew their list by tens of thousands, what if I applied those same skills to my own business? And what would that look like in terms of just using my energy to do what I love and not burnout?" Because I think that's another thing as copywriters, once you're in the groove and you know how to get clients and you gain some solid skills, there's almost always too much work and too many people who are like, "I want that. I want that." And so yeah, learning to say no and say yes to experimenting with doing these things for myself and my own business, I think that happened probably like 2017, 2018, I started really shifting my mindset to that direction, but that was really hard. And at first, I created the course and I didn't have a team and I was still doing one-on-one client projects, figuring out how to launch my own course, support my own students, and it was just way overwhelming. Every big change that I made in my business, even adding the course, building the agency, building a team was brought forth because of my children. Well, my husband and I decided we were going to have another baby when my son was four. And that was a wake-up call because I didn't know what it was going to be. With my first, I didn't sleep for two years and it was so intense. So I'm like, "Okay, preparing for that, what can I do to set myself up for this to not lead to massive burnout and overwhelm?" And so, the course was the solution in that instance. And then fast forward, when my daughter was seven months old, I found out I was pregnant and I'm like, "Okay, having another baby." And that was when I really looked at bringing in support and building that agency. So those were the key moments where I realized, "Okay, big change needs to happen." And both of them changed everything. Rob Marsh:  So, Chanti, listening to you talk about that, you went from being on your own to growing to 10 people, that's a pretty big jump. Will you step us through each decision like what was the first position you added, what was the second, and why did you need that person in your business? Obviously you need to be generating the revenue to support a team like that, none of us have gold mines in our backyards. You might actually have one in your backyard just undiscovered, but my backyard is not quite that big. But yeah, talk us through building that team step by step. Chanti Zak:  Yeah. Well, and I'll just preface that with that's been a real challenge and struggle is the revenue to support the team. There have been many months where on the surface I'm making a ton of money, but behind the scenes, I'm spending all of it on a mostly team. So that's been a huge challenge that I'm honestly still trying to navigate and figure out. But the first team member that I brought on was a VA, and that was pretty early on. And I would highly, highly recommend anyone listening who's still doing their own invoicing and putting their own proposals together, and if you can afford even just a few hours a week, that was a game changer, that was the first step. And I think I started with 10 hours a month of support from my VA. So that was the first step was getting a VA who helped me with all the administrative stuff. And then from there, I started bringing on contractors to help with client projects.

Brian Kurtz, an expert in advertising and copywriting, shares valuable insights in this episode. He discusses gaining rights to Breakthrough Advertising, creating upsells and bonuses for added value, and the relevance of a book from the 60s in today's marketing arena. He also explores the reality of book launches, how to improve relationship building, and the power of giving without expecting anything in return. A must-listen conversation for aspiring copywriters and marketers.

On the 323rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Sara Rosinsky joins the show. Sara’s initial career plan was to be a stand-up comedian, but ultimately she decided to focus on her very enjoyable day job in a Boston advertising agency, writing copy. Sara is also the author of Unflubbify Your Writing: Bite-Sized Lessons to Improve Your Spelling, Punctuation, and Grammar, a book intended to help people avoid making common mistakes in English. Sara’s career spans from agency life, to in-house, and freelance copywriting, so you’re not going to want to miss all the insight she shares. Here’s how it all goes down: How Sara landed her first agency job that lasted over 10 years. The creative process at an agency and being able to learn everything on the job. How to become more confident in the words you write. Why you need to have passion for all of your ideas even when they don’t make it out. What’s the real story behind working in-house? Is it a good idea to go rogue and start freelancing? Which route is for you? How her two freelance endeavors are different. To niche or not to niche. Why she decided to get consistent on LinkedIn and how she built an audience who wanted to work with her. How to create a sales force for free. Packaging deliverables for out-of-state projects – what’s the best route? Her approach to LinkedIn and how she comes up with content ideas. Sara’s mantra for copywriters. How she makes many things work at one time. What can you make happen in 27 minutes? Her book writing process and why she decided to write a book. The most common mistakes people make when writing and speaking. How to channel creativity outside of work. Listen to the episode or read the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Join The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Sara's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 4 Episode 6 Episode 282 Gin's website  Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:   A few weeks ago, I wrote an email to all of the people on The Copywriter Club list that included some crazy math about skill compounding. Because I know a lot of copywriters say they don't like math, I added the phrase, "Bear with me," to my email as I explained how it worked. Only I wrote B-A-R-E instead of the correct form of the word, B-E-A-R. What's worse is that I realized my mistake and I meant to correct it, but before I could, I had to run out, pick up my daughter from school. By the time I got back, I forgot. I hit send with my mistake in place. Fortunately, dozens of you caught my mistake and wrote back to point it out, which I really do appreciate, by the way. One of those kind correctors was our guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, copywriter and etymologist, Sara Rosinsky. When she responded to my mistake, she offered to come on the podcast and clarify this beastly language that we all speak and make it fun and memorable. We're thrilled to have Sara on the show today to talk about her business and some of the stickiest language problems that we all deal with as copywriters. But before we get to our interview, let me introduce my co-host for the week, copywriter Gin Walker, who writes for educators and online experts. She helps them connect with their audiences. Welcome back to the podcast, Gin. Gin Walker:   Hey, Rob, thank you so much. It's so awesome to be here. I'm especially pleased to be here for this episode actually thinking about Sara's fascination with grammar and punctuation and so on, because I spent a good two decades of my life as an editor. And so this is kind of my bag as well. I'm particularly pleased to be here. Rob Marsh:   Yeah, that's partly why I thought of you- Gin Walker:   Oh, really? Rob Marsh:   ... thinking, "Hey, who should we have come on and help?" And I thought Gin would be perfect because she's kind of into this stuff too. Gin Walker:   Totally, totally. Rob Marsh:   This is going to be a great conversation. Also at this point, I need to make sure that everybody knows this podcast episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank. If you're looking for a mastermind/coaching program to help you scale your business, check out copywriterthinktank.com for more information. You get one-on-one coaching, not just from Kira and myself, but we have coaches for mindset and for systems and processes and for visibility. There's still time to get in and join us for our next in-person retreat in New Orleans in January. Go to copywriterthinktank.com for more information about that. Gin Walker:   Yes, absolutely. Please, may I say, I am an alumni of the Think Tank and I cannot sing its praises highly enough. Get in there. You will learn so much. It's just a hugely uplifting experience in every sense. Let's get to this interview with Sara. Sara Rosinsky:   I graduated from college and had an abundance of self-confidence. I thought employers would be beating my door down. That was not the case. And so I did what any advertiser should do, which is I put up posters that said I was available for hire. I put up just 8-1/2x11 posters all over Boston's Back Bay, which is where I was living in Boston, had the little tear off phone numbers at the bottom. It so happens that I thought I might be interested in advertising and had contemplated taking an ad club class. But when an ad agency called me, I was over the moon. They initially wanted me to hand-deliver some baseballs. They were invitations for American Express, and they were kind of a cumbersome-sized and shaped box, and they wondered if I could hand-deliver these invitations. That gig did not happen, but the head of the agency kept my little phone number, and when they needed somebody to fill in for the, I'm going to say, girl who was answering their phone, very young woman, I was available. Absolutely, I'd love to answer your phones and type up your media buys and all the things that you need. That was how I got my foot in the door at a Boston ad agency where I stayed for a decade. That was the beginning of my career. There's more to it, but I don't want to go on too long. Rob Marsh:   But let's stop there because this is amazing. I started my career very early in an agency as well, and there are so many stories of people who in order to get the foot in the door, join the mail room and deliver letters for a year or two until they can catch the attention or whatever. The poster, they literally found the poster and that's how they found your name. Then you worked as a receptionist. Then what was the next step? How did you get the attention of the person to say, "Hey, we need you to help on a project and not just answer the phones"? Sara Rosinsky:   I was fortunate that this agency was very small, so I was not overlooked at all. I also was doing standup comedy at that time, and the man who hired me, Stan Bornstein, was intrigued by that. He had a concept where he thought it'd be great if we had a standup comedian delivering jokes about our client, Store 24, which was a convenience store. He almost immediately was engaging me to think of writing and ideas. When he learned that I wanted to take an ad club class, that was when he really said, "Oh, you want to be a writer? You want to write advertising? Don't pay them. I'll give you stuff to work on." He did, and he gave me assignments. I would very shyly put what I wrote on his chair when he wasn't there because I was too self-conscious to present anything. Anyway, he mentored me. He really did. I can remember him telling me what was terrible and when I missed the point. I got an on-the-job teaching opportunity. Kira Hug:   How long did it take you to go from answering the phones to getting that opportunity and moving over to a writing role? Sara Rosinsky:   I was doing both at the same time for a while. I can't tell you exactly how long it took before I found myself in an office. It was probably honestly, it may have been a couple of years even. I'm not sure, maybe 18 months. It really was such a small agency that I was their IT department. Can you imagine? When they got ... I am not qualified, but I was the most qualified. Anyway, there was a lot of wearing of different hats and things. It was not strange that someone writing some copy might be sitting at the front desk. Kira Hug:   Then just to give some context, can you talk about how the roles progressed over that decade, especially for people who haven't had that agency experience? Sara Rosinsky:   Let me think about how that unfolded. When they hired someone else to sit at the front desk, that was clearly an inflection point of you are now a writer. I shared an office, and I think I was the only writer besides Stan. I do also remember, probably three quarters of my way into that decade, I remember through my husband's coaching telling Stan that I wanted to be a senior copywriter because I think there was maybe another copywriter there. I laughed just because it was such a small shop that that didn't fundamentally matter, but I supposed it did because the next job I ended up getting at Publix Super Markets in their in-house department. They hired me as a senior copywriter. As I say this out loud and I giggle about titles, they may actually matter. It may be worth pushing for that. Rob Marsh:   It doesn't really matter in maybe the work that you do, but it totally matters in the way that people perceive you. I agree. I think within reason, somebody with three months of experience shouldn't be pushing for a senior copywriter title, but if you've been doing it for a couple of years, for sure. That seems smart.

Martha Barnard-Rae joins the show for the 322nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Martha is a copywriter and TEDx speaker who opens up the conversation about how getting to know yourself makes you a better business owner. After an ADHD diagnosis, she’s learned to put a different lens on her business and lean into tools and resources that work for her, and let go of what doesn’t. This episode reframes what we understand about ADHD and self-discovery and it’s one you won’t want to miss. How she ended up an English teacher in the most isolated city in the world. Finding a mentor and providing equal value to each other. Why her business partnership ended and how she ended it. How she stumbled into a diagnosis of ADHD and how it’s affected her business. The importance of learning about yourself and tools you can utilize. Why you need to show yourself compassion. How she became a TEDx speaker and how she continues to seek opportunities. The time management struggle… How to manage your time. How taking a break when you need one can save you and your business. Why you need to have an honest conversation with yourself. How to stay in your lane and focus on things you love. Do you have the right systems in place when things go wrong? Smash that play button or check out the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Join The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Martha's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Masha's website   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Building a successful copywriting business is a challenge even when everything is running smoothly. But that almost never happens as most listeners would know. Several of our guests on the podcast in the past year started their business during the pandemic and worked really hard to overcome the challenges that presented. But there are other challenges to face down things like difficult clients growing your skills and some copywriters even have challenges, like things like ADHD. Today's guest on The Copywriter Club Podcast is Martha Barnard-Rae and she opened up about what it's like to run and grow a copywriting business with ADHD. And if you struggled with focus or lack of attention, you may want to stick around for this one. And even if you haven't, there's a lot of really good advice that she offers that applies to all copywriter businesses. And now let me remind you that this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Accelerator. That's our program that helps copywriters, content creators, and other marketers lay a solid foundation for their business. If you are already a good writer, you're already good at the thing that you do, but you're still struggling to build a business that supports you, the Copywriter Accelerator is the program that can help you get over the hump from thinking about your business as a CEO instead of as a writer or a service provider to strategies for getting yourself out in front of the right clients, building a great brand, creating packages that people want to buy the Accelerator will help you set up your business for success in the coming year and beyond. Go to the copywriteraccelerator.com now to join the waitlist so that you get notified as soon as we open up and we will link to that in the show notes just in case you are driving or otherwise occupied and can't look that up right now. And before we get to our interview, let me introduce my co-host today. It's Masha Koyen. Masha is a copywriter and strategist for interior designers and builders. She's a member of the Copywriter Think Tank and a former Accelerator member. Masha, welcome. Thanks for being here. Masha Koyen:  Thanks so much for having me Rob. And thanks for the introduction and I'm so honored to be here. I've been a loyal listener for over three years and as you mentioned, I've been in Accelerator and now in the Think Tank and I absolutely love both communities. They've given me such tremendous support and community accountability and weekly trainings, all those things. So thank you so much. Rob Marsh:  Amazing. So I'm thrilled to have you here and we're going to chat in just a few minutes, but for now, let's get to our interview with Martha. Martha Barnard-Rae:  I was a teacher, I used to be an English teacher. So I live in a place called Denmark, Western Australia, which is on the southwest corner of Western Australia, 450 kilometers south of Perth, which is the most isolated city in the world. And the school that I worked at was 70 kilometers away from my house and my husband is the only paramedic in that place. So his hours are really weird and I was just, "I feel like doing all this driving and all of this stuff is just too hard and I don't think it's supposed to be this hard." So I started looking for something that I could do and I'd always been a writer and I had a friend who was a copywriter and it turned out she was one of the first digital copywriters in Australia. She's been at it for a while and she was just an amazing mentor to me and gave up her time. I had Wednesdays off or something and we'd catch up on Wednesdays and talk about copywriting and we ended up being business partners for a couple of years. And it was really great because it meant that I didn't make all the mistakes that you make in your first year of running a business because she had a template for everything. And she'd quoted for projects like this before and then after it just felt like, because she still had her own business at the same time and my business is called Word Candy and I was really focusing on Word Candy stuff and I just said, "I don't know, I feel like we're done here." And she's like, "Yeah definitely." And we just parted ways amicably but we're still friends. So it was a really, really good way to learn how to run a business as a copywriter. Rob Marsh:  And forgive me if I'm mistaken, Martha, but you don't sound like you're from Western Australia. How did you end up there in the first place? Martha Barnard-Rae:  So I'm from Toronto, Canada. And I moved here with a man and then I have a lot of friends that moved here with a man and they're all broken up and so it's like, "So-and-so moved to Australia with a man and they broke up." And you're like, "Yeah, obviously. Of course they're broken up." So we split and I stayed because Perth... I don't know if you've been to Perth in Australia, a lot of people don't make the trek, but Perth is offensively beautiful and it's always warm and sunny and it's gorgeous. So I stayed here and then I met my husband David and I stayed forever, which my parents are not happy about. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, sure. Kira Hug:  Okay. So can you share a rough timeline if you can add any dates as far as when you left teaching, when you started the partnership? Because that just helps me piece it all together. Martha Barnard-Rae:  Yeah. It was at the beginning of 2019 that I was like, "I need to do something else." I took a copywriting course and then I started that mentorship with my friend Beck and started the business during the beginning of 2019 and then by the end of 2019 because the school year ends in December here. So by the middle of the year I was like, "This is good. This is working, I'm earning money," not enough to replace my salary. But I was lucky enough that that was okay for a period of time. So I resigned and finished teaching at the end of 2019, the best time to finish teaching in the history of the world. Kira Hug:  Well, done. Martha Barnard-Rae:  Because obviously of the pandemic. So when everybody at the beginning of 2020 was like, "We're all learning how to work from home and it's really hard." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm learning how to work from home and it's really hard." And that was when I started to think, "There's something going on here with focus and attention and that sort of stuff." And then that partnership, I think we finished that in 2021. So yeah, we worked together in a partnership from 2019 to 2021 and then I've been a sole trader since April of 2021. Kira Hug:  Okay. That's really helpful. So as a follow-up, I guess, how would you advise other writers to look for a partnership like that? Because I think most of us don't start off that way working closely, almost like an apprentice with another copywriter. I think that's a really great way to start. So what would you look into to find an opportunity like that, so it works well for other copywriters? Martha Barnard-Rae:  Listen, it was a complete fluke that that happened. So it wasn't something that I planned. The interesting thing was that I got onto social media and was doing some social media stuff and my partner Beck, she just doesn't have any social media channels for her business because she's all word of mouth because she's been doing it for so long. So she was the one who was like, "This is cute, but why are you doing it?" And I was like, "Because this is what you do." So it was interesting because she didn't know anything about social media and so we were able to help each other back and forth in that way. But I mean I guess you really need to find somebody that you gel with and someone who's willing to make that investment in you. And I feel really grateful that she did. And I think too because we were working together and she was earning money as well, it felt a little bit more... I didn't feel so greedy for asking her for assistance and stuff, but we just had a situation where we would go, "I'll work on this project, you work on this project." But everything that went out for the first year and a half, she looked over. So I got a lot of feedback from a professional writer. I was listening to your podcast this afternoon with Mary,

Mariam Vossough is our guest on the 321st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Mariam is a copywriter and scriptwriter who is breaking into TikTok as a means to connect with her ideal client: Gen X women. The insights she shares will not only help you become a better writer but just might give you the courage to give TikTok a shot. Here’s what we talk about: Mariam’s start in the cutting room and how she became in charge of the entire story office. Her transition to children’s author after becoming a mother. Are children’s book writers cooler than copywriters? Self-publishing vs. finding an agent – which route should you take? Why copywriting is the best career for never-ending learners. How she stumbled across copywriting and why she joined The Copywriter Accelerator. What’s the process for turning a mediocre story into great content? How copy structure is an art form and why it can change the entire dynamic of the reader’s experience. Why your ego has no place in the editing room. How Mariam tears apart copy and creates a better end product. The day-to-day of being on a writing team and writing stories for episodes. How her scriptwriting career made her fearless and develop a thick skin. How to create better open loops and cliffhangers. When she knew she was ready to transition her career. What her business looks like today and why it took her longer to niche down. How she discovered her niche and what helped her get there. Why marketers need to pay more attention to gen X women and why they’re being ignored in the first place. Showing up on TikTok – what works and who should use it? 5 steps to getting started on TikTok TODAY. How she breaks down her content pillars on social media. Creating content on TikTok without dancing. Play this episode for immediate inspiration. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Join The Accelerator Waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Connect with Mariam on TikTok and Linkedin  Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Jenn Prochaska's episode  Episode 75 Episode 177 Episode 276 Jenn's TikTok Full Transcript: Kira Hug:  Niching down, owning your personal brand and showing up as your wild self on social media often feels like a huge obstacle for copywriters like us. But as business owners, it's kind of unavoidable, especially early on in our business when we don't have a team. The good news is we control how we niche, how we brand ourselves, and how we show up in the world. And our guest on this week's podcast is the perfect example of a writer who's not only taken control over her brand identity, but who has also built a business that provides meaning to her. And she's done it in her own way with a brilliant sense of humor and grace. Mariam Vossough is a copywriter, screenwriter, and TikTok nerd. And after this episode, you just might rethink how you show up on social media and you just might find yourself creating a TikTok account. I know she's almost convinced me, like not quite, but almost, so close. And before we jump into the interview, I want to introduce my lovely co-host this week who is feeling a little under the weather, and I appreciate her being here. So welcome back to the show, Jenn Prochaska, who is a brand messaging strategist, writer, also a guest on episode 307, which is one of my favorite episodes where we talked about overcoming addiction, scaling a business, parenthood. We went deep and Jenn was so transparent and real throughout the entire conversation. If you haven't listened to it, you've got to listen to it. So Jenn, thanks for coming back, especially when you're not feeling so great. Jenn Prochaska:  Yeah, thanks Kira. Yeah, I'm keeping it real. I'm a little congested, but I'm super excited to talk about Mariam... Podcast. Kira Hug:  All right, great. And so before we jump in, this episode is brought to you by the Copywriter Accelerator. We are really excited because we are about to launch this program. We're about to jump in with a bunch of copywriters and get started. So we're currently offering early bird access to this business building program where we get to work with you over five months to put all the pieces of your business together. So you can go from feeling like an order taker to really feeling more like a CEO and in control of your business. And if you have any interest in joining or just checking it out, you can join early and save some cash, which is always nice. And you can check out more information in the show notes. You will hear a good amount about it today because our podcast guest is an Accelerator alumni member. So you'll hear a little bit more about it. All right, let's jump into the interview with Mariam. Mariam Vossough:  I'll try to do the potted history 'cause I'm very, very old, so there's quite a lot. I always wanted to work in drama. I studied drama at university. I started off working in the film industry. I did various different roles on set to kind of learn the different trades. And I ended up landing in the cutting room. So I was really fascinated with the story and how a good editor can really transform quite mediocre material. So I spent hours and hours and hours sitting in cutting rooms and I started when we were on film, that's how old I am. I was literally carrying canisters of film rolls towards the end of my time in the cutting room. It started to move over to digital, but it was an amazing place to learn about storytelling. I increasingly became frustrated because I wanted more input and to make a bigger difference on the story, which is why I went to the other end of the process. And I wanted to start writing. So I got various jobs, script writing, script reading for other people. And I landed a big job on a program called Coronation Street, which is, I think it's the world's longest running drama serial. So I started there as a story liner. I worked my way up to story editor. So I was in charge of the whole story office. We would write all the stories for every single episode that went out. I did that for about a year and then I got promoted onto the writing team, which was a huge deal. So I was still quite young and I stayed on the writing team for a couple of years. Then I had a baby. So I just took some time off. And I decided when I went back to... Go for a different show, because I've been on Coronation Street at that point, about five years, and that's not five normal years, it's like five dog years. It's so intense. And I just wanted to do something else. So I worked on a Channel Four program called Hollyoakes, which is a kind of soap drama serial for a younger audience. And there was lots of comedy in it and they dealt with some serious issues as well. I liked being able to combine the two. So I wrote there for a couple of sessions. I did it for a few years, then I had my second son. Then I went back for a few years and then I found myself with two young children trying to write for a TV program full time and something had to give. And when you write for that kind of show, you are expected to be available 24/7 if they need rewrites or someone goes off sick, you've just got to be there. They need it in and they need it in for the next day. And I couldn't make myself that available. Well, I didn't want to. So I became an author. I wrote for children. Now obviously, I had two young children at the time and I never thought I'd write for children. But what spurred me on is that I had two boys and the lack of imaginative books for young boys at that time, I was quite disappointed. Unless you wanted to read about firemen or tractors, there wasn't much. And I was sure you could do better than that. So I wrote a series of books that aimed at boys under a pseudonym and that was great fun. And opened me up to the world of children's book authors who are the loveliest set of writers you will find. Copywriters are second, but children's book writers are just the most welcoming. They are so lovely. And I enriched my life in so many ways. So I did that. I carried on doing that for a few years. And then unfortunately my eldest son became very, very ill. And I had to completely step back from work for a couple of years. We were trying to find our feet, me and him. I was trying to get him the help he needed and just adapt our whole way of life to his illness. And after a year or so, my brain is the kind of brain that just won't stop. And unless I use my brain positively, it starts to go down a dark path because it keeps going whatever I'm doing with it. And at that time, I'd heard more and more about self-publishing. Now it wasn't familiar to me because I came up through the very traditional writing part. You had to find an agent and then the agent got your work. So I started to look on YouTube and found tutorials and things and I thought just out of interest to see if this is possible and to keep my brain ticking over, I'm going to self-publish a couple of books. So I wrote a couple of fiction books, which I'd never done before. I never liked to make my life easy. So I wrote a couple of fiction books and published them on Kindle under a pseudonym and made them into an audio book. And I really enjoyed the process, but I thought, this is not something I want to do. I don't want to be a publisher full time. It takes me away from the work I enjoy, but I'm still earning money back from that. That's a regular sort of income. And whilst I was on YouTube, I then started to see things on my feed about making a living writing online. And I was completely clueless. I didn't know what this could possibly be. So I started to watch videos and found out about writing blogs and writing online content.

On the 320th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Rob and Kira sit down to debrief 2022. What worked? What didn’t? And what’s coming up in the month of December and into the new year? As you begin to reflect on the past year and plan for the next, you’ll find advice and book recommendations to guide you into a successful 2023. Here’s how the episode breaks down: Why you need to join the Strategic Growth Plan challenge TODAY. The difference between how Rob and Kira change their behavior. Trying out a different email style… Masterclasses and diary entries? Is Kira ready to move again? Early-bird for Accelerator is opening when?! CEO retreats – do you need them in your life? Why roles can change when your business grows. How stepping into a leadership role can help your business. Productivity and time management book recommendations for 2023. Check out the episode below or read the transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Join The Accelerator Waitlist  Join the 5-Day Challenge  The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM     Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Okay, so welcome everyone to the Copywriter Club Podcast. This is our 10th episode since the last time that Kira and I were together and just chatting about what's going on in our lives and our business and the things that we've got coming up that we're excited about. And so as we like to do, we're jumping back in to give you another update on what's happening so that you know what to look forward to from the Copywriter Club. Kira Hug:  Yeah. And we thought it would be fun to reflect, as many of us are reflecting at this time of year on what has happened over this past year, good and bad so that we can be more intentional as we move into the new year. Rob Marsh:  Every time we talk about what we've done, Kira, I feel like your list is always so long because you always move, you have a new kid, you do all these amazing things and I'm like, "Huh, I wonder what I did this year." I got to come up with something while you're talking. Kira Hug:  I think you've done many things you just didn't have quite as much time to prep as I did. So I had lots of time to think about everything that happened this past year. So we're going to share again, just like some wins and struggles, personal, and professional from the two of us. And then we are going to talk about what's happening this week in the Copywriter Club, what's happening next month, this month. So we'll try to stay on track and stay focused. I think focus might be the theme for today's... I was going to say today's interview, today's conversation - Rob Marsh:  Episode. Yeah. And if you are used to the longer episodes and you were looking forward to that, we hate to disappoint you. And if you think that other episodes are too long, this one might be right up your alley because it will probably be a bit shorter. Kira Hug:  Yeah, because let's be transparent, it's Friday; it's my end of day. Not quite your end of day, but it's Friday. So we're going to keep this short and sweet. Rob Marsh:  Yes. So Kira, why don't you kick us off. Let's talk about some of the stuff, the wins that you've had. And since we're really talking about end-of-year reflection, we'll go into that a bit more later. Yeah. What's happened this year that's been exciting for you? Kira Hug:  All right. So I do have my lengthy list in front of me. I'm going to try to just highlight a couple. Like you said, I move frequently. So yeah, moving was a big win. Moving is hard. I hope to never move again, ever. So that was a big deal. And it's also rewarding because I really like where I live now and I don't want to leave Maine anytime soon. So I think that's a win. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, definitely a win. And my win is that I didn't move, which means I didn't have to box up any of the books that I own or any of the stuff that, the whole mess of moving. I've avoided that for yet another year in a row. I think I've lived in this house now for about 17 and a half years and my goal is to make it 18 and a half. Kira Hug:  I think I told you before that we have a team of movers. We get a special discount because we move so frequently and we just work with the same team of movers. And every time we move Slava, who's our main guy, he comes to me, he's like, "You have too many books." He's just like, "You need to get rid of some of your books." Which I will never do. So that was a win. I also eased back into monthly CEO retreats, which I had to take a pause on those. While baby Homer was kind of young, it was just tricky to do those monthly and spend a night at a hotel to really focus on business development. But as he's turned into a crazy toddler, I've been able to jump back into those, which has been just, I think, really the best thing I've done for myself and for the business and probably for my family too. So that's... I'm actually on one right now. And so I will chalk that up to a win. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. And for those of you who haven't heard us talking about retreats in the past, we've mentioned it a couple of times on the podcast and we definitely talk about it in places like the Think Tank. We have an upcoming episode, it's not out yet, but it will be out in the near future, an interview with Steph Travado where we go a lot deeper on the idea of retreats and what's involved. So look forward to that. Kira Hug:  Yeah, we'll dig really deep into that. Because I think there is an art to the CEO retreat and there's so many ways to do it. So I think we'll dig into how you could do it to make it work for you. So we'll talk about that soon. Rob, why don't you share some of your wins so it's not just me rattling off a bunch of mine. Rob Marsh:  Well, if we're going back the entire year. We had a great event, TCCIRL. We have talked about that before and the speakers that were there and the fun that we had. So that was an amazing win. It's always fun to get together with other copywriters, hang out in person. We may be doing something a little bit differently next year. Maybe not the same big event that we've done in the past. We're still working on how we might be able to break it up or do it in some different ways. So we're not announcing anything. But it was a huge win. And I think something that you felt was a really big win too. Kira Hug:  Yeah, definitely a big win. It does feel like it was forever ago, but that was this past year and it was wonderful just to see everyone. I think that that was the biggest win, even though events are hard work and it can be exhausting, which we all know, just seeing everyone. And even recently I was looking through the photos from the event and it just brought back all of the feelings and all the good feelings from that event with so many incredible copywriters that showed up. So I think it happens way too fast and it's a really special event. So glad that we were able to pull it off this year. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I think we have realized that this is one thing that we tend to do really well, whether it's an event or retreat. We do have a retreat coming up in the Think Tank next month in January, and it's much smaller than what an IRL is, but same kind of awesomeness where you get to hang out with copywriters, work on your business, get coaching, all of those amazing things. So that's not a win, but it's coming up very soon. Kira Hug:  Yeah. No, that's worth mentioning. If you are a copywriter who may be at this stage where you're trying to figure out the next thing in your business, the next level in your business, and you need more of an intimate retreat with copywriters who are more experienced, who are operating at a different level, you may want to check out the Think Tank and do that before our retreat in New Orleans at the end of January. That's a great way to jump in. Rob Marsh:  Let me give you one more. I'm not sure if I count this as a win or not, but I was talking with my wife the other day and I said to her, "I have to admit something to you." And she said, "What is it?" And I said, "I think I'm becoming a runner." And my entire life I've hated running, but I've been doing so much running lately and I feel so good after my runs. I don't love running itself after running and I've now bought whatever my fifth or sixth pair of running shoes that I've gone through over the last couple years. And I might be approaching the time when I can step into owning the fact that I'm a bit of a runner. Kira Hug: Wow. Rob Marsh:  I used to be more of a cyclist that's... Cyclist... In the past cyclists were always smiling when they're on the bikes and we would pass runners and they’re just gritting it out with pain on their faces. And I may have accidentally slipped onto the other side of that gulf between cycling and running. So is that a win? I don't know. Kira Hug:  It is. Runners are smiling on the inside, they're always smiling on the inside, but they look like they're in so much pain on the outside. I think that's amazing. I've noticed that you've been running more and I didn't really want to say anything because I didn't want to... I don't know. Slap that identity on you and have you push it back and push it away. But yeah, I think that's exciting. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, we'll see if it lasts. Kira Hug:  That's funny because I've always been into running and now I'm trying to get into biking for the... See, that's foreign to me. I just have never been into biking besides being a child and biking. And so I'm trying to ease in that way into that world. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Biking for me, has always just been so much more fun. It's faster. Climbing up the mountains is a little bit easier.

Sue Bowness is our guest on the 319th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Sue is a content writer and professor who helps her clients and students tell better stories through content. In this episode, she shares her insights on the content writing industry and how it’s changed over her two-decade long freelance career. Tune in to find out: The real difference between being a business owner vs being an employee. The mindset reframe you need to take on when you decide to start your own business. Copywriting vs content writing… Are they the same? What is the true value of content writing and how do you position it to clients? How much can you actually charge for ONE blog post? Are you stuck on finding a niche? Try this. How can you make a boring topic tolerable to read? What does it take to run a profitable business for two decades? How to navigate trends and changes to your industry. How to be more productive as a full-time business owner? Creating multiple income streams to fulfill different passions. How joining the Think Tank helped her business and the power of being surrounded by high-level ambition. Are you writing your business emails the wrong way? Do you need a college degree to be a content writer? The skills that crossover with degrees and other business experience. Check out the episode below or read the transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Sue's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM James Turner's episode (79) Episode 227 Episode 244   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  We talk a lot about copy on this podcast. I mean, it's in the name, The Copywriter Club Podcast. So over the past few years, we've spent hours talking about persuasion, and sales, and calls to action, and dozens of other copywriting strategies and tactics. We don't often talk about content, although the last couple of episodes we have talked about content, but it is a really big part of the work that many copywriters do. So today's guest on the podcast is content writer and strategist Sue Bowness. We asked Sue why more copywriters should take on content projects. We also talked with her about the things that she's done that had the biggest impact on her business, how disciplined she is with her schedule, and a lot more. So stick around to hear what she had to share with us. Before we do all of that though, this episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Underground. We recently rebuilt the entire back end of the underground to make it easier to find the training and resources that members of the underground have access to. Everything from creating the perfect proposal, which is one of the trainings in the Underground, to running a successful sales call, which is another training that's in there, to more than 40 in-depth newsletters on topics like persuasion, overcoming objections, managing your time, getting more done. I'm barely scratching the surface here. There are monthly coaching calls, weekly copy critiques, and a fantastic group of supportive copywriters in our exclusive Facebook group. Check it all out at thecopywriterunderground.com. And one more thing before we get to our interview with Sue. I feel like I'm going on and on here, but I need to introduce my guest host for the day, James Turner. James is a conversion copywriter, marketing collaborator who's worked in SaaS, tech, and education and e-commerce and about, I don't know, 50 other niches. I'm going to ask him about that in just a second. Once more, James is a friend going back six or seven years. At parties, I've called him my wingman as he introduces me around. He's a bit of an extrovert, which is an exception around copywriters. Welcome back to the show, James. James Turner:  Hi Rob. Thanks. It's great to be back. Rob Marsh:  And you don't have a niche, right, or do you have a niche? I mean, you've worked in lots of niches. James Turner:  No, I remain nicheless. Rob Marsh:  Okay, you're one of the few. We may have to sell you a program on choosing a niche or something someday. We'll see. James Turner:  I'd buy that. Rob Marsh:  Okay, so let's get to our interview with Sue and hear what she has to say about being a content writer. Sue Bowness:  I've actually wanted to be a writer since grade three, so that was exciting. I actually have my grade seven autobiography on my bookshelf over there and it says, "Wants to be a writer." So I guess as I grew up it was like how do I actually make that happen, right? Because the writer that I wanted to be were the writers that I read as a child, right? Because I was always a big reader, and so I wanted to be like Gordon Korman, or Shel Silverstein, or Lois Lowry. And then I was like, but I need to make a living at this, and so how do I do that? And I became a big magazine reader when I was in high school, and so always liked those elements of writing. So I was like, how do I make this work? So I applied for an internship after I finished my bachelor's degree in history in English, pretty typical story, where I could do the most reading in. I got my dream job through my dream internship at a general interest magazine here in Canada. So the magazine, I was lucky enough for it to turn from a weekly, sorry, from monthly into a weekly. So we all got hired and then two years later, unfortunately, the magazine got folded and we all lost our jobs. So sad day, but at that point, I was starting to think, who are these freelancers coming in and out of our office who seem to write all the great stories and have this kind of lifestyle where they're able to do a lot of writing? And what I wanted to do was a lot of writing. I didn't want to go into another job where I would be still working my way up doing the kind of work that you do in entry local positions. I just wanted to be writing right away. So I thought this freelance thing might be for me, and so I started writing in technology, mostly for magazines and newspapers. Started in tech because it was 2002 and that was sort of a boom time for that niche and there were lots of publications to write for. I'm naturally the person who likes to write, who likes to explore technology in terms of how it meets the consumer. I'm definitely not a programming person, but I understood enough about it to make a go of that one, and be naturally interested. Then over the years, I've added other niches and specialties. I moved into writing about entrepreneurship and careers. I've written about business, just things that are adjacent to technology or new places to explore. Then when I went and got my Ph.D. in English, which I did following a successful master's where I discovered that it was fun to research and explore about our early Canadian magazine history is what I wrote my master's thesis on. I decided to, maybe now that I'm familiar with educational institutions to pitch them, and so that became my focus after that. So now I work a lot for higher ed. I do writing like blog content and still a lot of articles, journalism-type stuff only for alumni magazines and research magazines, that kind of thing, and use my interest in that kind of content to create content for readers outside of the university where I'm taking maybe an interesting science topic and translating it for the general reader. I feel passionate about that because I think there's a lot of interesting research out there that the public doesn't really know a lot about, and so it's fun to get that information out there, get some recognition for the people who are doing this great research. I'm always after I do my stories, I'm thinking like, "I'm glad somebody's looking into that." And it's such a great field I think for communicating that information. I feel like what I brought with me though is always the storytelling and the journalism. That's been at the heart of my writing. Even though I'm doing more content, less journalism now, it's really thinking about how to tell those stories, and how to inform people out there. Then freelancing has stuck for me. This is actually my 20-year anniversary of being in business since 2002. So it's just, really for me, worked as a lifestyle and I really like the freedom of it. I like to travel, so that's allowed me to do that in the summertime, take time off when my editors are off and that kind of thing. I like the freedom of working from home. I'm disciplined to create my own schedule. So it's all been a lot of fun. A few years ago I was thinking, this might be my only job, and so how do I keep making it work? And that's one of the reasons I joined the Think Tank, is how do I keep going with this, learn new tips and that kind of thing because I'd never been part of a formal group, even though I'd had freelancer friends and that kind of thing. I thought it would be fun to move that in a new direction. Rob Marsh:  So yeah, we've covered a lot of ground there. So I want to go back to where you started writing for these publications as you were starting your freelancing. First of all, how did you find your clients? And then a second question to that, is there a difference between finding clients that are publications versus finding clients who need content for blogs, case studies, that kind of thing? Do you pitch them differently? So anyway, two questions in one there. Sue Bowness:  Yeah, I guess the similarity in terms of pitching corporate clients, I call them corporate, even though I'm writing mostly for institutions and places that have publications, is that a magazine has a fairly strict format, right? You pitch a feature. If you're pitching a feature for The New Yorker, it's going to be a certain word length,