The Copywriter Club Podcast

Simon De Brito is our guest on the 318th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Simon is a Marketing Automation Specialist who creates inbound marketing strategies in order to turn prospects into customers. Not only does this episode give you the inside scoop on inbound marketing but just how different buyers are in different parts of the world. Tune into the episode to find out: What is inbound marketing and what does a Marketing Automation Specialist even do? How the different stages of awareness helps create conversion-worthy content. What’s the difference between B2B and B2C buyers? Why you can’t just throw content out for the sake of content. Scoring systems – what are they and what does it do for business? What mistakes are marketers making in their inbound marketing efforts? Which free tools translate for smaller businesses? SEO – does YOUR business need it? Why you need to STOP solving everyone’s problems. How to save time, stretch your content, and drive more eyes on your content. The future of inbound marketing. Marketing differences between Europe and the U.S. How understanding cultural differences will give you an edge in your marketing efforts. Check out the episode below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Simon's LinkedIn  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 183 Episode 242 Episode 256 Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Let's talk a little bit about marketing automation. So as copywriters, we have the opportunity to work with a lot of different tools. Often we simply take care of the copy and then we hand over a copy document and let the client worry about getting into the right tools, whether that's their email service provider or an automated social media content posting tool, or maybe even something more robust like Marketo or HubSpot. But other copywriters are taking the time to learn the ins and outs of these kinds of tools in order to bring greater expertise and strategic thinking to the table for their clients. They're solving even bigger problems, which can be a pretty compelling competitive advantage. Our guest for today's episode of the Copywriter Club podcast is marketing automation specialist Simon De Brito, and he shared a bit about how mastering these tools can make you a better marketer, whether you do it for your clients or for your own business. But before we get to the interview with Simon, let me first introduce my guest host for the day. He's been on the podcast as an interview guest himself several different times. He's been a guest host once before, and he's the person who introduced me to Goo Goo Clusters and started my summer downfall with sugar. It's Justin Blackman. Hey, Justin. Justin Blackman:  I will happily take the blame for the Goo Goo Clusters. They are amazing. That was my favorite part of the Nashville event. Literally, that was the first thing I thought of when you guys said that you were going there. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, Goo Goo Clusters, I ate three bags of them. I'm glad they don't sell them here. At least you have to really go looking for them. And yeah, it knocked me off of my no-sugar bandwagon, which I'm back on. No Goo Goo Clusters on the desk today. But yeah, they're either the very most delicious thing in the world or the most evil thing in the world, or maybe both. Justin Blackman:  I'm sure that there's a marketing lesson in there about scarcity and urgency of, "Oh, I'm going down the airplane. I need to get one more bag because I'm not going to be able to get it anywhere else." Yeah, it's amazing. Every now and again, I'm here in Georgia. Every now and again, I'll stumble on a gas station near the border by Tennessee that will have it in Georgia and it'll feel like contraband. It's like I can't tell anyone about it and I'm just going to buy them all and hoard it and get really fat and love it. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, that's my problem. That's what I did and they're delicious. But enough about Goo Goo Clusters. Before we jump into our interview, Simon, we do need to remind everybody, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Accelerator. That's the program that will help you lay the foundation for a successful business. Whether you've been doing this copywriting thing for a while, maybe you're rethinking your brand or changing your niche, or even if you're just starting out, it's a bit like earning a copywriting business degree. It covers everything that you need to know from figuring out your X factor to creating packages that your clients want to purchase, as well as things like pricing and nicheing and finding and managing clients and so much more. We're opening the doors for new members very soon. So to make sure that you are on the notification list, go to thecopywriteraccelerator.com and just drop in your email there, and we will let you know. Justin, you were in, I think, the very first accelerator we ever ran. Justin Blackman:  I was, yeah. I was in the beta round, and that's when Kira held the gun to my head and made me write 10,000 headlines. Rob Marsh:  So lots of good things can come from the accelerator. I mean, I didn't intend to talk about this, but in some ways, it launched your business and you into the copywriting world. Justin Blackman:  Not in some ways, in every way. Highly recommend it; big fan of that one. I actually still use some of the templates from there. Rob Marsh:  So lots of really cool stuff there. We'll be telling you more about it, but make sure you hear about it by going to thecopywriteraccelerator.com and get on the waitlist. Okay, so let's get to our interview with Simon. Kira Hug:  How did you end up as a marketing automation specialist? Simon De Brito:  Yeah, so I started working in the US close to 10 years ago in a small startup company with around 20 people. And my goal there was to just recreate the whole marketing department. What I found most effective way was to create an inbound strategy. And inbound strategies, what you do is you create a lot of content so people can find you and then you can convert them with this content and then start nurturing them. So I start sending them more content to qualify them and send them to your sales team. So really using content as a key of the lead generation process. And so I started driving to really going into automation nurturing programs, which led me to my second job in a bigger company, but just really on the digital marketing side. Again, implementing an automation process and inbound process, creating all the workflows, the nurturing, really basing everything on content, content that brings value to the prospects. And now to my third company. We have a marketing department, we have a digital department, and in this department, I just focus on automating nurturing programs and helping generate leads and making sure they go to the right person and receive the right content. Rob Marsh:  So Simon, I'm curious, a lot of our listeners are copywriters, but some of them may be thinking, "Oh, maybe the copywriting thing or the content thing isn't quite right." I'd actually like to get on the marketing side. What advice could you give somebody who wants a career path like the one that you just outlined, what kinds of things could they be doing in order to connect with marketers and really figure that kind of a career path out? Simon De Brito:  Thinking about me, my main idea was, on the marketing side, thinking about conversion and thinking about how do I bring value to the person I'm trying to sell to? I'm not here to just spam people to just send just a lot of emails or things like that. So, it's really thinking about, how do I bring value to the people? The value came with great content that's really aligned to the persona that I'm going to talk to. And then from there, it's just really pulling the thread on this and just keep creating more and more content and realizing how I've created one great piece of content, what's the next big piece of content that can be very useful for my audience? Then what's the third one? And then you just start creating a workflow of a suite of emails or a path that people can go down to and really better understand your product, your solution, and how you can fix their problem. So yeah, it's really natural in a sense. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, it feels like it flowed for you. In addition to content writing though, are there other skills that they should be thinking about adding? Do they need to know a certain set of tools or do they need to dive more into strategy? Or is it just to get better at content, get better at solving the problems and it all serendipitously comes together? Simon De Brito:  There are a lot of tools that will help you create your workflows, for example. So a workflow is when someone enters through one door and what type of content you send after and send after, because you don't want to be... So for example, if we're talking about tools, but imagine for an emailing program, you have to set up your email program every week or every two weeks or every month. That can become very time-consuming. What you want is something automated. So you set it one time, you set your five emails automated, and once a person enters through one content, they receive the next five pieces of content. So you can learn about automation tools. Mailchimp has one, HubSpot has one. I'm a big fan of HubSpot because you can really track conversions, KPIs and create very good sequences of emails. Kira Hug:  Yeah. And I definitely want to talk about the tools that you use, but first can you just talk a little bit more about what you do today in your current role, just to give us a better idea of what that looks like?

Tori Autumn is our guest for the 317th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Tori is an email strategist and copywriter who helps coaches and course creators grow their businesses through fervent messaging. In this episode, she spills how she's quickly grown her copywriting business and what she's had to shed to make it happen. Here's what you'll find: How Tori went from broadcast journalism to self-love coaching to copywriting. What to do when jobs don’t go the way you planned them to. The balance between nonprofit work and owning a copywriting business – practical tips for pursuing multiple passions. How she built her business to $20k months in a matter of a year. Why she invests her time in networking and the benefits it's given her business. The REAL benefits of 5-figure months. How The Accelerator and Think Tank helped her business grow and flourish. How to shift your mindset as you’re growing your business. Copywriting vs. strategy – what’s the difference and how will it help you position yourself as the expert? How she went from writing email sequences in a couple of weeks to a couple of days. Why you need to let go of toxic clients for yourself and for their benefit. Choices and decisions. Which one is more powerful? Should we have seasons for connection calls? Referral systems – are they a good idea? The mistakes marketers are making today and how to solve them. How to begin building extra streams of income. Tune into the episode by pressing play or reading the transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Tori's website  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 184 Episode 261 Full Transcript: Kira Hug:  You know how most copywriters jump into copywriting as a side hustle while working their full-time job? And they can't wait to build up the business enough to ditch their 9 to 5 and focus 100% on their copywriting business. While today's guest for the 317th episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast isn't the type of copywriter to follow the traditional path. That's right. Tori Autumn, an email strategist and copywriter, has gone from zero to achieving the coveted 20K a month by shedding toxic clients, seasonal networking, launching new products, specifically templates, and balancing a full-time job with a growing copywriting business. And the best part, she's done it all over the last year. Here's Tori's story and all the lessons learned along the way. You don't want to miss this episode. But before we get into our interview, let me introduce my very, very special co-host this week. It's me. So you are stuck with me, just me. This week I decided to hijack the show and give Rob the boot. So here we are. Feels a little strange without a co-host, but we'll make do. So first up, today's episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank Mastermind. So why should you join this Mastermind this month? I mean, you could join any mastermind, and you could join any month, so why this one right now? Well, we have a team of coaches in this mastermind, so not only do you have access to Rob and me to provide feedback, strategic direction, private coaching as you move through your business and achieve your goals, but you also have access to a team of coaches. So you have access to a mindset coach, a systems and growth coach, and our newest coach that you have access to when you join the Think Tank is a visibility coach. Those are three core areas that we know copywriters struggle with the most, so we wanted to bring in coaches who have specialized in those areas to help the copywriters in our Mastermind. So again, you don't just have access to Rob, to me, although you'll get more of us than you probably even want in your business, but you also have access to these incredible coaches that are going to help you scale your business, learn how to work with a team if you want to build a team, how to build your systems and processes, how to focus on your visibility, which we know can feel very uncomfortable, but how to actually show up in a big way. And, of course, you know how to do it all and shift your mindset, which is the trickiest part. So that's a good reason to join this mastermind. And why right now? Well, we are adding a couple of new members this month before the holiday craziness, and we're inviting our newest members to join our Think Tank Mastermind this January in New Orleans for our in-person retreat. And we're so excited that we can finally get back to in-person retreats and over a couple of days in January. So if you know that you are ready to be in an intimate room of brilliant writers, then this might be the right time to apply, jump on a call with us, learn a little bit more about the Think Tank, and see if it's a good fit for you. You can find more information in our show notes. All right, that's enough for me. Let's jump into the interview with Tori. Tori Autumn:  So last year ... Well, I'll go back up to when I started my business in 2019. So I went to school for life coaching. After working in PR, losing my job, I read the book, You're a Badass. And I said, "Maybe I should do life coaching." So I went to school for that and then niched into self-love coaching. And then, over the pandemic, I found it really, really hard to get my group coaching program running for my self-love coaching business. But I've gotten so many compliments on my emails, like the newsletters and the promo emails, and people were asking me to write them for them, so I eventually just started doing that. And I said, "Wait, I can actually make money from doing this? I don't have to do this as a gift or as a hobby." So I started deep diving into copywriting last year, and I reached out into my network of copywriters that I've known that I've been in different email programs with and things like that. And from there, I niched down to email and website copy. Rob Marsh:  So before you got into copywriting, let's dive into some of the stuff that you were doing before that because you've got some pretty deep experience in PR and marketing and that kind of stuff too. Talk a little bit about that. Tori Autumn:  Yeah, so before I did that, I actually went to school for broadcast journalism, so I worked in the news industry for almost five years, and then I transitioned into PR. So in the news industry, I was doing production work for C-Span. And so, that was cool, but I also felt like I was bored ,and I wanted more, and I just didn't really want to be in a political environment. So I started doing public relations, and that didn't go well, but I learned a lot of skills. I learned how to effectively be a PR strategist, but the actual job was really toxic. So I lost my job, got fired, and then I realized, you know what, I never want to be in a situation where that happens again. So that's what kicked off my entrepreneurial journey. And now I do copywriting full-time along with a full-time position I have advocating for people who have intellectual and developmental disabilities, and I really enjoy that. Kira Hug:  Okay, because you mentioned it, you got fired from your job. How do you rebound after that? Because I imagine that can be, even if it's a toxic situation ... well, especially if it's a toxic situation, it can really feel like a blow to your ego. And so, what did you do to feel better and move forward after that situation? Tori Autumn:  Yeah, even though it was a very challenging job to have, I did feel a lot of grief. I felt more so annoyed that I was so excited about the pay with that job and the skills that I was learning, all the things that came with it. And I was just there for quite a really short time and just felt really rejected. But also, I knew that that wasn't really what I wanted to be doing 10, 20 years from now. Aside from the skills I learned, I know that wasn't ... it was so fast-paced and so disorganized that there was just no way that I could keep up with that. So I really just started diving into reading books after that. I was unemployed, and I said, "Well, other than applying for jobs ..." which took quite a while to find another position that I ended up just staying very shortly. I had a stint in IT for a little bit. I've done quite a few things, and now I feel like, yes, this is where I want to stay." But I just started reading a lot of books. And also, it helped when other people told me about their stories about getting laid off or getting fired. It also made me feel like rejection is redirection. Rejection is protection, all those things. I felt that way because sooner or later, that PR agency is no longer here. It dissolved. So it made me feel like, whoa, I'm a terrible employee. I got out of taking it super personally and saw that that was just not a place I was meant to be for the long term. Rob Marsh:  So before we get into what you do as a copywriter, I'm also interested in what you do to advocate for the mentally challenged. My own brother was mentally challenged before he passed away, and I'm just curious what you do there and just the impact that you're having on those people. Tori Autumn:  Yeah, so I help with the criminal justice division of this nonprofit that I work with. And so there are many cases that we get where people in ... the police workforce don't necessarily know the signs or symptoms of someone who has intellectual developmental disabilities, and sometimes we often ... people with IDD, they may agree to a crime that they didn't even do because they're afraid, or they may get pulled over by police and flee the scene because they have sensory overload with all the different lights and someone yelling. So there's so many things.

We’ve invited Kirsty Fanton back on the show for the 316th episode! Kirsty is an ex-psychotherapist turned launch copywriter and on top of running a thriving copywriting business, she’s also a new parent. Her expertise in the psychotherapy world makes her the best person to chat boundaries around not just navigating parenthood and business, but creating better boundaries for ourselves as a whole. Here’s what you’ll find in the conversation: How Kirsty’s business has changed since our first interview with her. How TCC programs helped her business reach 6-figures and introduced her to an incredible network. The shift her business made since having a baby. Preparing for maternity leave and how creating a passive stream of income helped her business. The process to create an evergreen funnel. How to step back and look at your business from a strategic perspective. How she built a business that worked around her life when her time was so out of her control. The tools she gained from being a licensed psychotherapist and how they can help you practice belief work. Are you holding on to this limiting mindset belief? The fine line of teetering two sides of business – how to avoid burnout. Why you don’t need to rely on having a large audience and how to make money from a small following. How to create an ecosystem of offers that supports your clients in all directions. What surprised her most about maternity leave and having a baby. Advice on how to implement boundaries from the expert and why they’re critical to your business (and life). Setting aside time for the big picture visions in business – where does it fit in? How to increase your reach and grow your email list. What to look out for when you’re trying to find a partner to collaborate with. The expectations vs. reality of parenthood. Check out the episode below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Kirsty's free workshop The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Kirsty's first episode 106 Episode 268 Brandon's podcast Full Transcript: Kira Hug:  If you are planning on taking a sabbatical for any period of time, whether it's for maternity leave, paternity leave, or any type of leave away from the business, this is a conversation you won't want to miss. I knew I had to talk to Kirsty Fanton, our guest for the 316th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast about her experience planning for and working through maternity leave after the arrival of her little one, Ollie. Kirsty and I had our babies roughly around the same time, give or take a few months. And it wasn't the easiest of times to bring a child into this world. I mean, is it ever an easy time? No. Kirsty evolved her business during this time, despite the harsh reality of caring for a baby during a strict lockdown in Sydney. This entire conversation is a candid one about what worked, what didn't work, and how we can all continue to grow our businesses in new ways as our lives dramatically change. You won't want to miss it. Okay, So today I have a special co-host. I am so excited to have Brandon Burton here. If you don't know Brandon already, Brandon's a part of our TCC team, has been in the community, growing the community over the past few years. You probably already know him, he's been on the podcast before, but in case you don't, he is a brand voice strategist for Introverted Experts, a podcaster, a new podcaster with a new podcast, which is very exciting, a father to a new baby, Zion. So part of the reason, Brandon, I'm so excited to have you here, is because we're going to talk a lot about babies and maternity leaves and adjusting to business and work after having a baby. And so I'm really glad that you can add to this conversation. Thanks for being here. Brandon Burton:  Thank you for letting me be here. Yeah, it's an exciting conversation. I think this is something I'm looking forward to. Kira Hug:  And how old is Zion now? Brandon Burton:  Zion's three months so we're still in that difficult blurry phase. Kira Hug:  Yeah, you are in it. Okay, perfect. So yeah, glad you're even here to do this and have this conversation. All right, so before we jump into the interview with Kirsty, of course, the podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Think Tank. The Copywriter Think Tank is our mastermind. It's kind of like a hybrid mastermind where you have access to these 25 brilliant writers in the group. I think they're some of the most generous creatives, smartest people, and I learned so much from them. So you have access to this incredible room. And then you also have access to coaching. So we offer group coaching on mindset, on systems, on scaling your business. We also have coaching on visibility. And then Rob and I also tackle just the regular business questions that pop up, off and on. And we provide one-on-one coaching as well in that mastermind. So the reason I'm mentioning it now is because we host three retreats a year in The Think Tank, and those are the times where we're all together as a group and we can really support each other, connect, learn, and create action plans for our business. And we have a retreat coming up at the end of January in New Orleans. And I'm really excited about it because it's the first in-person retreat we've had for a while. We went virtual over COVID and now we get to finally hang out in person again. So if you have any interest in taking your business to the next level and figuring out what that even looks like, what that could be for you, or if you've hit a plateau and you're like, "I need to do something differently, but I'm just struggling to see what that could be," reach out to us. We'll have a link in the show notes where you can learn more about The Think Tank Mastermind and apply to jump on a call with our team and learn more about it. And the best thing is if you do this sooner rather than later, you could join us in New Orleans in January for this retreat. Okay. So let's jump into the interview with Kirsty. I would love to just start with the evolution of your business and if you can just kind of paint a picture of just as a quick recap of where it was in 2018 and then where it is today, before and after. Kirsty Fanton:  Oh, big question. So I think ... Kira Hug:  Starting big, we're starting really big. Kirsty Fanton:  I love it. So I think, okay, back in 2018, it might test my memory a bit, but I'm pretty sure if it is at the point in time I was thinking about, I had just either done or was in the Copywriter Accelerator, had really hit it off with you in particular. Obviously, I also like Rob, but I feel like you and I, I think because we had the chance to work together and you brought me on so kindly and so thoughtfully to a lot of launch projects, I think that was the point at which my business was really starting to take off. So through working with you and also through the Accelerator, I changed my niche, I started working with more aligned clients on more exciting projects. So I think I was still doubling in email-only copy for a little while in 2018. But by 2019 I had expanded to launch copywriting and I'm pretty sure 2019 was my first six-figure year as well. I think that's right. Kira Hug:  Let's just go with it. Yep. Kirsty Fanton:  Let's go with it. Let's lean into it. So I think at that stage, that's right, yes. And 2019 was also the first time I launched Brain Camp. So 2019 was the first time I went from purely providing one-to-one copywriting services to also having an arm in my business where I had a group program, which is Brain Camp, which I still have today. So things are really taking off for me at that time. And I think things are really exciting. I was sort of stepping inside a whole new world of possibility and lots of big questions and what ifs and just sort of understanding what was possible and how much control or say I had over what I could do with my business, which was super exciting. And I always credit that moment and that knocking off of the blinkers to being part of the Copywriter Accelerator with you and Rob. Because I think without that I'd probably still be doing blog copywriting for big hotel brands and I wouldn't be very happy. How things have changed since then. So, God, they've changed a lot. So I worked with that model up until early 2021. I almost hit 200K, but I left the business in 2021 for about 6 months because I had a baby, Ollie, who is now almost 18 months, which is nuts to think that time has gone so quickly. And I had quite a rough pregnancy with him. So that put the brakes on things in my business sooner than I would've hoped. But I did manage to get a more passive income stream up and running before I went on maternity leave. And that was with two digital products, one of which is the Mirror Journal, which is a tool for reflective practice. And the other one of which is the Social Proof Sidekick, which is a tool that helps you collect, select, and leverage social proof so you can sell more stuff more easily. So my business now post-maternity leave, post-baby looks very different and probably more different than I had anticipated before I had Ollie just in that the only one-to-one services I'm offering now, 18 months after having him one-to-one coaching and one-to-one strategy sessions. I don't know if you have found this ever Kira, with your babies, two of whom are now quite big, that I just struggle to find the mental space that I know I need to do justice to big launch projects while also carrying most of the mental load for a very small human. So for that reason, I haven't kickstarted the copywriting services in my business again.

Rob Perry is our guest on the 315th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob Perry is a SaaS and B2B copywriter and consultant who has built a solid pipeline of clients without using a website, email list, or high-profile social media presence. In fact, he grew his business using a platform you may be familiar with: Upwork. How’d he do it? And could you do the same? Stick around and find out: How Rob went from President of sales to copywriter and how he leveraged his skills. The struggles of abruptly moving your family overseas. How he used Upwork to start copywriting and became a sought-after copywriter. Standing out on a platform like Upwork and becoming the go-to choice. Are 3 minutes of value worth your time? Upwork 101: Setting yourself up for success in 3 steps. Why you need to filter jobs on Upwork and cut out the noise and save time. How to avoid clients who have unrealistic expectations. Did Kira get kicked off Upwork? How to tailor your proposals to each job. The top reasons copywriters should use Upwork to fill their pipeline. Can you build and make connections OFF the platform? Finding the projects you actually want to work on. How to dig up the pain points of your ideal client and create a solution. Rob’s advice on closing sales calls and being a better salesperson. What mistakes are copywriters making in the sales process? How to step into different personas and voices as a copywriter. Why it’s crucial to practice confidence and adjust (and take care of) your mindset. What NOT to do when adding retainers to your client load. Avoiding bad habits and thinking strategically about your business. When to use Upwork and how to keep it from being your only lead source. Thinking about building a team? Do this first. How to get to where you want to go FASTER. Press play or check out the transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Rob Perry's Free Upwork Workshop  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 19 Episode 248 Episode 265 Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  In the past five years of interviewing successful copywriters on the podcast, I can only remember one who was running a successful business without a website or a social media presence, or an email list for that matter. And perhaps coincidentally, that person, I believe, is the highest-paid copywriter working in the world today. Now, I'm guessing at that assumption, but if he's not the highest-paid, he's definitely in the top five. And you might be thinking, "Well, sure, a copywriter with a good reputation and a steady flow of very high-paying clients can get away without a website or an email list or a social media presence. But what about an almost unknown copywriter working in places like Italy or Chile or Spain without any high-profile clients? In fact, a copywriter who might be getting the bulk of his clients in a place like Upwork?" Our guest on the Copywriter Club Podcast today is copywriter Rob Perry, and he says that it's not only possible to do that, but that he's been doing it successfully for years. You're going to want to stick around for this one and hear how he's done it. But before we get to our interview with Rob Perry, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank. That's our combination of coaching, training, and Mastermind for ambitious successful copywriters who are ready to take their businesses from where they are now, maybe somewhere around $5,000 a month and doubling, tripling, or doing even better with it. Or maybe they want to launch a new product or a podcast or create a course or membership or something different in their business, the Think Tank is the place that you can do it. And we're just in the planning stages right now of our upcoming Think Tank Retreat. It's going to be an in-person retreat this January. And so if you join before then, you'll be able to jump in, meet everybody in person, and have a lot of fun with us at that retreat. Anyway, if you want more information about the Copywriter Think Tank, check out copywriterthinktank.com. There's a little information there. There's a short video there that you can watch. Just get a sense of what happens in Think Tank. And if you want to know more, you can just schedule a short information call with either Kira or me, and we will help you figure out if that's a fit for you. And then one more note, today, I am alone today. No co host. So this episode is just Kira, Rob Perry, and a double dose of me. Having said that, let's get to the interview with Rob Perry. Rob Perry:  We all feel like we have a similar story, right? None of us started as copywriters or most of us didn't. But I was living in New York with my wife and had a job, working actually as a partner in a skateboard company, and my daughter was born. Life got immediately very complicated, very quickly because New York's pretty expensive and my wife was actually from Italy so she was from out of the country and had a little bit of trouble adjusting to being there as well. So we decided to move back to Italy to her hometown to spend some time closer to her family. Obviously, when we got there, I needed work and I couldn't take my job with me, and I knew we probably weren't going to be in Italy forever. So I decided, "Hey, I need to do something." I need to create some sort of business that I can take with me because we may be moving again and I don't want to have to look for a new job in a different country another time, maybe more than once. So I started looking at a little bit of content writing initially because I knew I could write. I was an English major and a Theater minor. Writing was always something that was a passion of mine, not something I had worked on professionally. So I started looking into content writing. And as I dug into it a little bit more, I started exploring and discovered that copywriting was maybe a little bit more up my alley. I had a lot of experience in sales, particularly B2B sales and face-to-face sales. So moving into copyright kind of felt like a really sort of natural transition from that experience. But at the same time, I had no real-life work experience in copywriting. I had no real-life work experience in marketing really. I had overseen marketing teams, but I never worked in marketing. I was more on the sales side. So I set up a profile and Upwork and just started looking for jobs. I sent a couple of proposals, I got lucky. One of my first few proposals got accepted and I was often running. Wrote a website, a couple pages of website copy for a hundred dollars for some guy, which at the time felt like it was perfectly fine, right? I was getting paid to write and it was always kind of a dream. Rob Marsh:  Okay, so do you remember that first pitch, what you said or what you did in it? Rob Perry:  I don't remember the first pitch, but I remember the first job well, because I remember it was a clothing company and they were based in an east coast city, not New York. They wanted to kind of redo their brand, but they had a very specific feel and they didn't want to completely redo everything. I guess they wanted to sound more professional, but they also were appealing to a younger segment. So I didn't want to sound too professional. So I wrote the copy. I tried to do the best that I could to make it grammatically correct at least while I was staying within the bounds of what I thought they wanted. And the first feedback I got from the client was, "Oh my God, what is this? You're going to ruin my brand. What are you doing?" And I freaked out, right? We all do that the first time we get negative feedback. This was my first job ever. But it all worked out. I got on the phone with him. Fortunately, I took the feedback head-on, got the phone with him to figure out what was actually happening and realized that his changes weren't so significant. It wasn't so different. We just needed to change a few things up. At the end of the job, I got a five-star glowing review from him. And that was really, I think, the launching point for me on the platform was getting that first review under my belt and then other people could see what I was about in terms of what it was like to work with me. Rob Marsh:  So I have a feeling we could talk about Upwork for the entire hour, but I'm curious how you go from that first project. I mean, you've basically grown your business on Upwork, but how do you turn that into a pipeline of projects coming to you? Rob Perry:  Sure. I mean, it was one step at a time, right? The first year it was kind of piecemeal. I wasn't working full-time either. I didn't need to at that point. We were kind of in a family-focused stage, and I knew that I wasn't going to dedicate 40 hours a week to it. So I kept pitching clients and I didn't raise my prices immediately. I probably should have gone faster than I did. I think my initial hourly rate was around $40 an hour. I didn't take hourly projects though, I worked on fixed-price projects. I would just find a job looked interesting to me that I thought that I could do that didn't have too much competition or that had a specific reason that looked like I thought that I had some sort of an in, there was something I could offer to the job that I didn't think somebody else could.And so that was really my opportunity. My strategy was looking for those strategic opportunities where I felt like I had an advantage. And so I would apply to jobs and give what I thought was a fair price and eventually worked my way up. As I got more reviews, it got easier. Pretty quickly, I became "Rising talent," which is one of the badges they give you on the platform,

Liv Steigrad is our guest on the 314th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Liv is a copywriter and brand messaging strategist with a psychology and sociolinguistic background. She helps her clients create powerful brands through her B.R.A.V.E framework, and in this episode, she breaks down how copywriters can use it to build their own brands. Here’s how the conversation went: Does a psychology degree help in being a better copywriter? How to get better at voice of customer research. Making friends as an adult and applying the same techniques in networking. How to prepare and execute things that are terrifying. The one habit you need to build to gain momentum in your business and life. Do you have a definition of success? And is it really true to you? What is a brand story and why does it matter? How to envision big goals and create your ideal day. The balance between a full-time job and a full-time business. What you need to take advantage of while you’re working a full-time job. What is brand strategy and how in-depth does it get? How to make microcopy both functional and filled with brand personality. The B.R.A.V.E framework – How to apply it for your personal brand. Why brand strategy is essential and how to communicate its value to prospects. Where are most copywriters struggling with UX? BE BOTHERED – How this simple phrase will help boost your business. The two business lessons Liv learned from gymnastics. When your mindset wavers… Remember this. Hit play to listen to the episode. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Liv's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 118 Episode 187 Episode 215 Jenn's website Full Transcript: Kira Hug:  When's the last time you felt bothered by something? Doesn't matter if we're talking about client acquisition or friendship, which we actually talk about a good amount in this episode, because let's face it, friendship is hard as an adult. It pays in multiple ways to be bothered, to speak up, and to show you care for the clients and friends in your business and life. And today's guest knows a lot about not only being a great friend but also about how to be brave in business and life. This branding strategist isn't afraid to terrify herself on a regular basis. This could look like stepping on a stage to do spoken word poetry, or doing a backflip, or traveling in a foreign country alone, or even building a business that's different from everyone else's business. In today's episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, you are in for a treat with brand strategist, gymnast, and all-around brave copywriter Liv Steigrad. Rob and I have had the luck of getting to know Liv in our Think Tank Mastermind and every time I spend time with her, I feel inspired to be more brave in my own business and life. Stay tuned because you won't want to miss this conversation. All right, so today I have a special co-host. I'm really excited to chat through this episode with Jenn Jouhseik, a personality-driven copywriter, and brand storyteller, and an incredible email copywriter as well. I know we don't want to give you three titles Jenn, but I feel like I have to mention email because you are a prolific email writer as well. So Jenn, thanks for being with me to talk through this episode. I appreciate it. Jenn Jouhseik:  Of course. So happy to be here. Kira Hug:  All right, so before we start to talk and dissect this conversation, I just want to mention that, of course, the podcast is sponsored by The Think Tank, which is our Mastermind Program. And Jenn, you are a member of The Think Tank. So I'm just going to ask you a question about it. From your experience, what has been the biggest benefit to your business from being in a Mastermind like The Think Tank? Jenn Jouhseik:  Oh, there are so many things. Definitely, the community has been huge. Working on a business no one tells you how lonely it is, and so being able to be surrounded by so many different copywriters and just being able to connect with a bunch of different copywriters that are going in different directions and bringing different ideas to the table, it really shows you all the different opportunities that you can do to take your business in whatever direction that feels good to you. And I think that that is really special. And just having that support, someone to listen to, and the accountability has been phenomenal. Kira Hug:  And I'm curious, Jenn, so what have you focused on in your business that maybe you weren't expecting to focus on initially when you joined? Have there been any surprises for you along the way? Jenn Jouhseik:  There have been quite some surprises actually. I started off with my focus primarily on brand messaging and voice and web copy. And I recently took a pivot into email, which is something that I wanted to explore, but was too afraid to do it, actually. And so it was a really nice opportunity to pivot that way and to grow my skills as well as just connect with other members of The Think Tank and learn from them and really push myself further than I normally have. And definitely one of the things that I probably wasn't planning on was doing speaking opportunities, and I found that I actually really like them. So it's been a pleasant surprise that I'm shocked about because I am not a great public speaker, but I really do enjoy speaking. And so that's definitely something I want to explore more. Kira Hug:  Thank you for sharing, Jenn. So if you're listening and you have any interest in being part of a Mastermind and focusing on some big goals in your business and maybe you even want to feel a little surprised by what you can accomplish and see is possible for your business, you can check it out and reach out to our team at help@thecopywriterclub.com to send our team an email and mention you're interested in The Think Tank and we can jump on a call and chat about it with you. All right, so let's jump into the conversation with Liv. Liv Steigrad:  I always loved writing, I always knew I wanted to do it, but when I was younger, I didn't know what my options were. I thought I could only be a novelist and I was never about that struggling artist life. So I went and studied psychology at Uni instead and quickly decided that that career path was not for me. Even though I love the field of it, I just never felt qualified to actually get inside people's heads in that way. So then I got an internship at a publication and learned a bit more about media and then that helped me get a job, a couple of days a week at a magazine. And then I came across copywriting in a Facebook group and I was like, oh, what's this? And then I started googling it and I was like, I think I'm already doing this and I want to do more of this, and I feel like I could make good money doing this, which was a total revelation. It was like the sun coming through the clouds for the first time. And so I didn't know how to get a job in it, so I decided to give myself a job in it and started my business. Rob Marsh:  I love that. So, the psychology background has me intrigued. Obviously, you didn't want to pursue that as a career path, but how does the psychology degree that you hold inform what you do as a copywriter? Liv Steigrad:  Not in the way that everyone thinks, and I don't know if I should say this in a podcast, which I don't know how many people are going to listen to. Rob Marsh:  You should definitely say it. Liv Steigrad:  Most people when they hear that are like, oh wow, you understand how people behave and you understand people's motivations. Sometimes people are like, oh, you can read minds. None of that is true. A degree in psychology is way more technical and way more scientific than people think. And the human behavior part is one top out of 20. But the part that I do use is the research. So one of the assignments that I had to do was called the systematic review, which is basically finding all of the available research on a topic and putting it into this table and finding the common themes. And that is basically how I now do my Voice of Customer research. And I use that mindset and that methodology in my brand strategy and how I analyze things these days as well. But all of my psychology skills that I actually use in copywriting, I have learned just from being a good friend and receiving therapy. Those soft skills of how to listen, how to pick up on what people are feeling, how to interpret people's behavior and apply that to how they might be feeling and all of that, I did not learn it in a psychology degree. Kira Hug:  Okay, well can you help us become better friends? How to be a good friend is hard. It's hard for me at least. And I feel like you're very in tune with that. And so, how can we become better friends to our friends? Liv Steigrad:  It's actually really easy. You just have to be bothered. And I apply that philosophy to everything in my life. Just be bothered. Just care. It is cool to care. It is cool to show it. It is cool to put in the effort. It is cool to take the time and think about your friends and if you can't remember their birthday, write it down. Follow up on things. If your friend's not feeling fine, do something nice for them. Send them $5 and tell them to buy a coffee on you. Be the person that does those little things that you hear about or you see in movies that don't seem to happen in real life that much. You can just be that person and you can just be bothered and that will make you in the top 1% of friends. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, I think my problem is that I'm bothered by the other definition. I'm bothered instead of the way you're using it, Liv, yeah.

On the 313th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Todd Brown makes an entrance on the show. Todd is an expert marketer with over 15 years of experience and in this episode, you’ll find out how he went from making $8.50 an hour as an overworked employee to creating a sought-after marketing approach other experts utilize in their own direct response marketing campaigns. The conversation goes a little like this: Where Todd got his start in the direct response marketing industry. What he learned about discipline as a bodybuilder and how he carries it into his everyday life and business. The importance of consistency and why it wins every time. His perspective on discipline and how anyone can add it to their toolkit. The double-edged sword of hiring a team. His shift from marketer to entrepreneur and how it changed the game for his business growth. What is marketing really? How to use Todd’s E-5 method for marketing campaigns and to grow a thriving copywriting business. Two ways to bulletproof your copywriting business and NOT become a commodity. The easy way to compete against AI software. Can you create a valuable USP in a saturated market? Why you should interrogate your own processes and how to justify it to your audience. How to be seen as the genius in the room by solving problems. An inside look at (THE) Todd Brown’s life + a handy book recommendation. Business and life lessons he’s taken from fatherhood with two daughters. The only swipe file you’ll need for the rest of your career. Do not hesitate to press play on this episode. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Get Todd's Swipe file Todd's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 24 with Roy Furr Our episode on Roy Furr's podcast Full Transcript:   Rob:  What does it take to become a truly great marketer? How do you learn the skills you need to serve your clients in a way that helps them grow? And when do you step beyond the role of copywriter and take on the title and role of entrepreneur? Our guest for today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is expert marketer Todd Brown. Over the past decade and a half, Todd has become the go-to expert for creating flourishing direct-response businesses. Todd is one of our mentors and we’ve learned a ton from him and his team. And every time we talk, we walk away with ideas and insights to implement in our business. What he shared in this interview will do the same for you. It’s a little longer than our usual, but Todd shared so many good insights. Do not skip this episode. Kira Hug:  So let's kick it off. How did you end up as The Todd Brown? How did you get here? Todd Brown:  I mean, first of all, I don't know if I would say I'm "The" anything. Let me be crystal clear about that. But it’s so interesting. First of all, I knew nothing about marketing or selling. I never liked selling, I was never really good at selling. But I was working for a health club company in central New Jersey, and through good luck, I guess I was promoted in this company. This company, they owned health clubs in New Jersey, that were all about 40,000 square feet, these big facilities, really beautiful architecture. They did something really special back then.  The company was growing very quickly. Actually, an interesting little gem was the owner of the company, I like to say that he was like my Steve Jobs, he was brutal to work for but I learned so much. I don't believe that I would be where I am today, if it wasn't for the experience, seeing how this guy looked at the numbers and was relentless with production and all that. Anyway, what was interesting was that prior to the gym business, he was one of the first people to lease computers.  This was when computers were expensive and big companies would lease them. And so he was leasing companies to like Avis rental and like all the airports and whatnot. And so he sold the company for 30-some-odd million dollars. The company that purchased it from him, a company based out of Italy, ran it into the ground in 12 months. Crazy right? He then was able to reacquire the team without having to buy it back, built it up again, and sold it for another 20-some-odd million dollars. So he took that kind of very business savvy you know, aggressive kind of mindset and brought it to the health club industry. So I'm now working for this health club. I started out making $8.50 an hour. I graduated from college. I graduated from college with a degree in nutrition, and then I ended up making $8.50 an hour working for this company, and through good luck, was promoted and eventually was made VP of the personal training department. So now, at this time, I had several facilities, a team eventually of 75 trainers, 7 managers, and 2 directors. We're selling personal training. And I ended up getting this postcard in the mail, this oversized postcard all yellow-black text, front to back, with what I know today is copy. Never seen anything like this in my life, right? I was like, what is this?  But they were offering a home study course on how to market and sell personal training services. It was really designed for the independent trainer, but I was like, man, this sounds awesome. I don't know what the heck I'm doing here, like I'm winging it. And so I went to my boss, it was like a few $100 I'm like, hey, is it cool if I expense this? And he was like, yeah. So I got this thing in the mail, to show you how long ago this was, this is going to date me a bit. But to show you how long ago this was that this thing showed up. It's a two-three-ring binder. It's got cassette tapes, it's got like a diskette. Like it’s this whole thing, I became enamored This is my first introduction to direct response marketing to long-form copy.  I never knew anything about it. I thought that like advertising and marketing is the, same thing. I thought it was like Home Depot, Pepsi, you know, like that sort of stuff. I became enamored and blown away. I dove into this thing, couldn't get enough of it. Ended up ironically picking up the phone and calling the creator of the thing. Somehow I tracked him down, and called the creator of the thing, and said, Who did you learn from? Right? He mentioned these two names Gary Halbert, and Dan Kennedy. That became the never-ending pursuit of everything that I could get my hands on from those guys. Of course, in the spirit of transparency, I probably should write down a very large additional check at some point since I bought everything off of eBay.  VHS tapes and the whole lot. I couldn't get enough of this. And so I started to implement what it is that I was learning both in that course and through the stuff that I was learning from Dan and Gary. And I had to kind of maneuver it a little bit to fit in the health club. But my department took off. And then eventually, I don't remember, call it a year later or 15 months later, my department is the poster child in this club, in this company. I'm now a rock in the house. I'm struggling around like I'm the man in this facility.  We're doing 3 million bucks a year in personal training sales. And then I said, you know what, let me see if I could use what it is that I applied in the health club. Let me see if I could teach it to somebody else, to other to other folks. I didn't want to do anything in the health club business in the personal training field, because I felt like it would be a conflict of interest with my boss. I just didn't want to do that. And so I decided to help massage therapists. It's a group that we kind of work within the health clubs. And so I created my own kind of home study version, very similar to what I received back then first thing and then that was the beginning of my journey.  I didn't know how to put up a webpage. There was no WordPress, there was no ClickFunnels, there was none of that. Everything had to be done on Microsoft FrontPage, or Dreamweaver. My aim at the time was to make 1000 bucks a month, like if I can make 1000 bucks a month that I could just blow on whatever nonsense, I'm loving life, right? Like, I'll be loving life. And it was a little bit of a test for me, like could I apply? Could I take what it is that I was learning in this one setting and apply it somewhere else. And so I would say that maybe, I don't remember exactly, this is going way back now, but maybe a year and a half later, that little business is matching what it is that I'm making from the health club company.  And at that time, I was doing pretty well in my role. And so that kind of led to when I decided, let me work with chiropractors since I felt like chiropractors had more money and could spend more money. And to kind of wrap this up without giving you the gory details in between, right around that time, a buddy of mine who you might recognize his name, his name is Chris Brisson. He is the founder of Call Loop today. He's the founder of Salesmsg. He's a great SaaS entrepreneur today.  He had given me access to all the tech things like the automated teleseminar,  auto teleseminar, I think it was called, he had given me all these things, because I had given him some advice on his business. And so one day, I was like, what can I do for you man, you have given me so much, I just feel terrible. I feel like I'm just taking in this relationship and not giving anything back. And he was like, you know, look, would you jump on and share with my audience, like the marketing stuff that you're doing. And at the time, we had a campaign that was generating like $24 a lead. So for every lead that we generated, we generated $24 in revenue. So I was like, Sure, man, let me get on. I'd love to do that. Got on,

Jennifer Spivak is our guest for the 312th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Jennifer is the CEO and founder of The AdGirls Agency, and she’s helped hundreds of businesses generate millions of dollars on Facebook and Instagram with the use of simple funnels. In this episode, she breaks down her funnel process and how copywriters can implement a low ad-spend approach to lead generation. Here’s how the conversation went: How Jennifer got into the entrepreneurial space and her mission behind her business. Getting out of an abusive relationship and how $1500 saved her life. How she grew her business through organic relationships and virtual door knocking. Why she set up one simple ad to book a call with her and how it turned out. Is it a good idea to turn your business into an agency? When this happens… It’s time to make a business pivot. Her team of 16 and how each position allows for her to step into her visionary role. What she would do differently if she was starting her business over. Her system and process for hiring and how to find out who would be a good fit for your team. Do you need a business partner? Split of equity – what’s that conversation like? Integrator role vs visionary role – what’s the difference and what are each responsible for? What NOT to do in your funnel and how to get chosen as the no-brainer choice. Her 4 messaging buckets to build relationships quickly and effectively. What if you don’t have a large budget for ads? The better follow-up method when someone books a call with you. The benefits of having a simple funnel in place… Call it the easy, lazy marketing approach. Switches and changes you might need to make to step into the visionary role in your business. Struggles of a 7-figure business owner and navigating new businesses. Why you should throw your timeline out the window and do this instead. Don’t wait to listen (or read) this episode. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Join the P7 Client Attraction Pipeline The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Jennifer's Forbes article  Jennifer's website Join Million Dollar Agency and use code "copywriterclub" for 25% off. The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 54 Episode 64 Episode 203 Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  If you've been in the marketing world for more than a few days, you've probably heard the idea that you need a funnel. After all, a single funnel that reliably brings the right clients to your business is the difference between feast and famine and working with clients that you love versus working with those who tax your patience and drive you crazy. Our guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club podcast is Jenn Spivak, the founder of The Ad Girls agency. Jenn's take on creating a great funnel that attracts ideal clients is different from the approach of almost every other expert that we know and, in the second half of this interview, she broke it all down so that you can borrow her approach for your business. Before we share that, Jenn also talked about building her agency, how she hires the various roles on her team and a lot more. We covered a lot of ground in this interview, so stick around because this one has dozens of insights that are going to help you in your own business. Kira Hug:  Before we jump into our interview with Jenn, this podcast is sponsored by the P7 Client Attraction Pipeline. If you haven't heard about it and you have no idea what's going on with P7, there's still one day to jump inside before we officially start this intensive on Thursday, and if you're like, "I don't know what this is. What's P7? What does this mean?" we'll give you an idea of what it's all about. After talking to hundreds of copywriters over the last five years, Rob and I recognized one of the biggest problems for copywriters is finding clients consistently with a dependable flow of clients. Rob, you and I created this pipeline to help solve this big problem for copywriters. The problem is booking clients consistently, prospecting, creating the space to even do that, and what we noticed is that, even though copywriters like us know that it's important to prospect and to send cold emails so you constantly have a flow of leads that you can turn into clients, even though we all are smart, we know this, there's still a gap there because it's not happening. It's not happening for the majority of copywriters we speak to, and so you and I sat down and tried to figure out why is this not happening for copywriters, and what's getting in the way. Kira Hug:  What we discovered is that, as copywriters, we're not building this into our daily routine. We're thinking that we're going to book time to batch cold emails, and then it doesn't happen because we prioritize our client work over our own business and also, we're all pretty overwhelmed dealing with business responsibilities, personal responsibilities, families. If we don't prioritize it and have a system with every single step along the way broken down so we can just jump into it easily, it's not going to happen, so we've put this together in this 30-day intensive so that you can have a system you can depend on to book clients consistently, to even have fun doing it so it feels like it's part of your routine and it's not something that you have to necessarily batch or wake up early to do, it could just be part of your day. Rob Marsh:  It includes everything that you need to find your ideal clients and, not just your ideal clients, your dream clients, the clients that you really want to work with, identify the problem that you can solve for them, create a pitch and a product or service that they can say yes to very easily. It includes templates, more than 20 different templates that you can use to reach out to clients. Whether it's to pitch or create a relationship on LinkedIn, via email, on Instagram, direct messaging on Facebook, however it is, lots and lots of templates, and then we talk through the difference between an MVP pitch and a GOAT pitch and when you want to use each one. What we heard back from copywriters who went through this workshop series a couple of months ago is that they finally realized how to make pitching doable, how to fit it into their schedule, but also how much time they needed to spend on a particular pitch and when they should put in a ton of effort versus just a little bit of effort. Both of them work to connect with clients. If you are looking for better clients, if you're struggling with feast-and-famine cycles, if pitching has always been a struggle, but you need clients and want to connect with people who can give you good work, the P7 Client Attraction Pipeline workshops will help you solve that problem, so definitely check out the link at bitly/tcc, that's capital T, capital C, capital C, pitch, and you'll find some details there that can tell you more. Kira Hug:  Yeah, and one last thing that I will say is that we're currently offering it for the last time at the lowest price. It's actually at the beta price. Even though this technically isn't beta because we've already launched it, we already ran it with the first cohort, we've proved that it worked, but we're still offering it at the beta price, and so you can jump in for the final time at that price before it jumps up next time we launch it as we continue to improve the program. Rob Marsh:  Okay, let's get into the interview with Jenn. Jennifer Spivak:  It's maybe a bit of an unexpected story, but I actually ended up starting my business towards the end of 2014 because of something that I realized I was really passionate about, which was putting more money into the hands of more women. This actually comes from being in a physically abusive relationship in my early 20s. I was really, really fortunate, all things considered, to be able to get out and move on with my life in the way that I was able to and in getting involved with domestic violence advocacy work. After that relationship, I learned that my experience was really uncommon and that the reason it was so easy for me was because I had access to money. I just happened to have $1,500 saved in an account that my abuser didn't know about, and that was literally potentially life or death, and so, I learned that financial abuse is actually present in 99% of domestic-violence relationships. I had gone to school for marketing and I was really good at it, and I felt really, really, again, passionate about we've got to put more money in the hands of more women because, at minimum, it means never needing to be beholden to anybody, but, on a macro level, it can sometimes be a matter of life or death, and so I brought those two things together, the marketing and that mission, and I built The Ad Girls agency which, yes, is an advertising agency, but we use Facebook and Instagram ads as a tool to grow people's businesses. Really, our purpose is financially empowering as many women business owners as possible. Rob Marsh:  We're going to link in our show notes one of the articles that you shared about that experience you had, but can we stop for just a second? As you mentioned, not everybody has access to these kinds of resources who may be in an abusive relationship, and while it's primarily women, there are some men, not as many clearly, but are there resources, Jenn, that you could maybe share with us or share with our audience if they're not in a situation to get away, you're in an abusive situation, what can people do with that first step to get help, clearly, an important topic and one we don't want to just gloss over and say, "Oh, this happened, and everybody's going to be fine"? Jennifer Spivak:  Yeah. I love that, Robin. Thank you for that.

On the 311th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Peta O’Brien-Day joins the show to discuss… Politics. But not in the way you’d imagine. Peta is a copywriter and messaging strategist who educates her audience on how to tread in delicate territory by leading with empathy in marketing their efforts. Here’s how the conversation goes: Her background in social work and learning how to empathize with teenagers by building relationships. What’s the secret? Working in mentally challenging conditions and the toll it can take. Becoming a widow and transitioning into many different careers. Starting a blog about starting over and getting hired by parent-based companies. Beginning on Upwork and optimizing her profile to appear first in the search bar. How to communicate empathy with skeptical audiences as a business owner. Never say these two things when someone is grieving — take notes. How she upleveled her skills before cold pitching and landing a company who needed email copy. How she went from $500/mo to consistent $4-$5k months. The importance of being strategic about being more visible and how to do it. How she found what truly lit her and began attracting more ideal clients. Why she has a large ecosystem of where she acquires leads. Her framework for writing values and molding them into your message (clear as day!) What tools we can use when having difficult conversations. Why it’s important to keep our perspectives open. Tune into the episode by hitting that play button or reading the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: P7 Workshop – get more clients The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Peta's website  Peta's politics membership waitlist  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 63  Episode 274 Full Transcript:

On the 310th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Rob and Kira sit down and chat about what’s new in the world of The Copywriter Club. Catch up and tune into what needs to be on your radar for the last quarter of the year. Here’s what they talk about: The 2022-2023 Definitive Guide to Pricing for copywriters – and how you can apply it to your business. What’s the difference in salary between content writers and copywriters? Do you need a degree to be a copywriter? (new blog alert!) Do copywriters really need a niche? How you can get better at prospecting and scale your income. The number one problem copywriters are facing. What do habits have to do with gaining clients consistently? Are you ready for the Think Tank? What podcasts are Rob and Kira listening to lately? A podcast to improve your storytelling game. Tune into the episode below.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: P7 Workshop – get more clients How much do copywriters get paid? Do you need a degree to be a copywriter? Do copywriters need a niche? The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM   Full Transcript:

Melissa Harstine is our guest for the 309th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Melissa is a Customer Research Strategist who helps her clients pull out the best insights for her clients, so they can increase their reach and results. In this episode, Melissa gives us a breakdown of how we can all increase our customer research skills and why they matter in the first place. Check it out below: Melissa’s beginnings as a journalist at a small nonprofit for the elderly and how she was able to connect with her target audience. Writing for a demographic much different than your own – how’s it happen? Why she decided to hone in on a niche and how it worked out for her. How to connect with potential clients in your local business networking groups. Her advice on asking better questions during the research phase. Why you need to lead with empathy and how to respond to people’s demeanor and tone. The specific questions she asks clients to pull the best details and information for a project. How she packages research and presents it to prospective clients. The key to communicating value and knowing your target market. Working with well-known leaders in the industry through building relationships. Finding dream clients once you actually know what you’re looking for. How to turn research into strategy. Her process for pulling out the best pieces of customer research. Why it’s important to stop overbooking yourself and what to avoid. Questions you *probably* shouldn’t ask. How she presents the research report to her clients and helps them apply and implement in real time. Should you position yourself as a “thought partner?” Resources you can use to become a better researcher. How The Copywriter Accelerator helped her grow her business. How to add more value for your clients. Tune into the episode by hitting play or reading the transcript below.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Melissa's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 12 Episode 28 Episode 154 The TCC Shop  Full Transcript: Kira Hug:  Customer research is one of those things all copywriters need to do in order to truly connect with the audiences we write for, but not all of us like doing it, and some clients hate paying for it. Doing it well can be a bit of a challenge. Today's guest on the podcast is messaging strategist and copywriter, Melissa Harstine. She talked about how she went from a copywriter without a niche to specializing in customer research for a variety of clients, including other copywriters. As we talked, she shared her favorite interview questions, ideas for selling research to clients, and how she turns her research data into a strategy her clients can execute on. It's a great interview you won't want to miss. Rob Marsh:  But first, this episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Underground. That's the membership for ambitious and growing copywriters. As a member, you have access to copywriting and business training, group coaching calls, copy critiques, our bimonthly newsletter, and a lot more, all designed to help you grow your business. And if you join now, as in the week that we're releasing this podcast, you not only get your first month for just $17, which is a screaming deal, but you'll also get a hard copy of our 24-page Copywriter's Definitive Guide to Pricing, which includes data about what copywriters of all experience levels are charging for 22 different project types, as well as things like the six figure niches and so much more. So go to Thecopywriterunderground.com to join now. Kira Hug:  And if you want to get your first month for just $17, like Rob said, use the promo code, TRY IT, that's all caps, TRY IT, and that will get you in for $17 for your first month. All right, let's jump into the interview with Melissa. Melissa Harstine:  Yeah, so I started my career actually as a journalist, and I was working at this little nonprofit newspaper for the elderly in Kansas. So it's like a regional newspaper, super-niche, super specific audience, and there was a day that really stood out to me in that kind of season of my life. We got a letter from one of our readers, and she said, "I subscribe to more than 35 different newspapers and magazines, including AARP, Time, Newsweek, and your paper is the best and has the most helpful information for people like me." Right? So we're this little nonprofit newspaper in Kansas, and if you objectively held us up against Time or AARP, not going to win any awards, but what we had going for us is we knew our audience super well. We were out in the community knocking on doors, showing up at the senior center, having these conversations, and we were able to create this really valuable newspaper, this great writing, this great content because we knew our audience. And so that was really the foundation for me in developing not only my interview skills but also I think just the ability to connect with people whose lives are so much different than my own, right? I'm 22 straight out of college, knocking on the doors of people who are my grandparents' age, and they're just like, "Kid, you're so young. How do you write for us old people?" But it's really fun now to kind of look back at my journey and see how that was the foundation for so many other things to come. So fast forward a little bit, I ended up in a different type of nonprofit communications, ended up in burnout, like I think a lot of people do in that field, decided I wanted to work for myself, had that flexibility, that freedom, and started this local marketing studio. And so at that point, I was just kind of a generalist copywriter saying, "Yes," to everything. Everything from, sure, Grandma Linda, I can set up your Facebook profile for you for five bucks, or whatever it is, to writing a whole website for $400, right? Kind of I think that's a common thing that people go through as they're growing their business and just learning what skillsets do I have. What needs are there in the market? How can I make this work? Over time, I realized that I really wanted what now I would call a high-ticket productized service. I wouldn't have called it that at the time, but basically, I wanted to be able to work more closely with maybe two to three clients a month at a higher price point. So instead of working with 14 to 17 clients at a time, feeling like I was pulled in all these different areas, doing all these different types of copy, and design, and marketing strategy, and whatever, really have this narrow-focused niche that allowed me to just make my business a lot easier to market, to sell, to deliver consistently. And so kind of through that transition from generalist marketer to more of a specific copywriter, at that point, I started doing website copy, case studies, some content, right? And I think that was when I first met you guys in the Copywriter Accelerator, was when I was going through that transition from a local business to an online business in 2020, like many people were, trying to figure out now that my potential target market is a lot broader, how do I market myself effectively? And I knew that by being more focused, having this more specific target market, this more specific service, this niche, it was going to be a lot easier to sell one market effectively. And so cut again through this kind of continual years of experimentation, observing what's in the market, going from general marketing to different types of copy, ended up in customer research, and it was really interesting how that happened. I had been writing case studies for a while for Amisha Shrimanker. She's one of my biz besties. I met her in the Copywriter Accelerator, and she was like, "Hey, Mel, you're so good at these interviews. You ask questions I wouldn't even think about asking. What would you think about doing the research for my upcoming launch copywriting project? My business is growing, I need support. I'm wondering if you'd do this with me." And it never occurred to me until that moment that customer research was a service that I could offer to somebody else. I was just like, "Wow, this is amazing," because, again, I look back at my journey and these common threads, and it was doing interviews when I worked in the newspaper, doing interviews writing website copy, that was always kind of my approach to writing, to case studies, all of these different things, and at the right moment, the pieces came together, and I found this really unique micro niche that was not only a perfect fit for my talent stack, my skillset, my vision for my business, but also honestly an untapped space in the market. I know of some exclusive researchers who are working in the e-commerce space, and tech, and SaaS, and corporate verticals, but I really don't know anyone else who does just research for service providers, or course traders, program leaders, and such. I mean, I know some copywriters are starting to offer customer research or market research as an additional package, and I'm sure we'll get into that later as well, but really this was a way for me to show up, add value in a way that fit my skills, and just really was a way to meet a need in the market. Rob Marsh:  Okay. That's amazing. I mean, just following a career from one point to the next point, to the next point, and I want to step back before we get into all of the client research stuff, but as you launched your business, started this generalist agency, micro-agency of your own, I'm really curious, how did you start finding those first clients, especially coming out of a different kind of job or a different situation where you're totally burned out? How do you get excited, and get out there,