The Copywriter Club Podcast

On the 349th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Michelle Pollack joins the show to completely shatter your perception of the inner critic and how something as “simple” as values can truly change how you show up in your life and business. Michelle is an Executive and Leadership Coach who shares her expertise in how to give yourself permission to play bigger and live the life you desire. Follow along to find out: How Michelle was able to change the neural pathways in her brain. What to do when the “is this all there is” feeling pops up and how to step out of it.  The importance of values and how to define them for yourself.  Can you have too many values and how to prioritize values for different seasons of life?  Is there such a thing as balance?  How to LIVE within your values once you’ve actually identified them despite life’s responsibilities.  The #1 barrier to facing your own inner critic.  7 ways the inner critic could be showing up in your life. How to create awareness around your inner critic. The critical component of working through your inner critic. What’s a “why” and how do you create one? What does compassion got to do with your inner critic? Why is messy action better than no action? The reality of shifting into new identities.  How are you supposed to sit in difficult emotions? Leadership vs power: what’s the difference? How to lead with your values.  Tune into the episode by hitting play or reading the transcript below.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Michelle's website  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  At some point in your business or life you've probably thought a bit about your values. What's really important to you as a human, as a copywriter, maybe as a parent or a friend or a sibling, or any of the other roles that you fill in your life. What's really important? Some of the stuff isn't easy to figure out, it takes time and deep thinking, and that's why we invited our guest for today's episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to join us, that's Michelle Pollack, and Michelle is a leadership and mindset coach for executives. We asked her about figuring out our values, setting the right goals and dealing with the inner critic that won't leave us alone, and her answers are directly applicable to your business and success. Kira Hug:  But first, this episode is brought to you by the P7 Client Attraction Pipeline, which is our client acquisition system. And anytime we survey our community of lovely copywriters, we ask you what do you want? And you say, I need help finding clients, I need a prospecting system. So we put it together and we continue to improve and add to it so that it works for copywriters based on what's happening in the marketplace today. And inside the Pipeline Prospecting System we have over 21 pitching templates, so there's different styles you can use, different templates you can pull from based on what works for you. There are also different tools and pitch tracking templates that you can pull from so that you… It's really easy to start pitching tomorrow and you don't have to reinvent everything from scratch. And there are also a ton of other templates and tools and resources inside the system that other copywriters have used to find new clients. So, we wanted to make it really easy for you to just get up and running and find those clients, especially during weird recession times like right now, where it feels a little tricky. And so if you are looking for something like that, you can learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/p7. Okay, let's kick off our episode with Michelle. How did you end up as an executive coach slash leadership coach slash mindset coach? How did you get here? Michelle Pollack:  So I ended up where I am because I felt like crap about myself for a really long time. I thought I was going to be an actress. I went to school for acting, I was convinced I was going to be a star. In eighth grade I told everybody in my class that we were moving to Manhattan for my career. My mom got all sorts of phone calls from people, "Joanne, you're moving to New York City?" She was like, "No." I think I was testing out early iterations of manifestation, they didn't work. But that was it, I was tunnel visioned. And then I got to New York City. I mean, I did some performing after college in Chicago. I went to Northwestern, I did all the shows. And then I moved to New York and I did... I auditioned, I did some summer theater and I was on the track and I was at a callback for a national tour of Annie Get Your Gun, and I was cartwheeling across the room at the callback and I was like, "Oh my God, I don't want to cartwheel across the stage eight shows a week, this is not how I want to spend my life, I don't want to leave New York City to do that." So, I had this total crisis of identity. I had no idea what I did want to do, I just knew I didn't want to do that anymore. So, I went and I worked, first I did some interning in film and then I went and got into theater, into the producing side of things. I worked for the producers of Rent and Avenue Q, I helped to put La bohème on Broadway with Baz Lerman, and Avenue Q on Broadway. And then I ended up moving out to LA and I got into TV and I worked on shows like The Unit and The New Adventures of Old Christine with Julia Louis Dreyfus, and I worked on Without a Trace. I had this very glamorous looking life that people were like, oh my gosh, that's so sexy. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so unhappy." I was just like, I did not feel good inside. I was like, "I have all the boxes checked of all the things that I'm supposed to be doing with my life, and is this all there is? Because if it is, this isn't what I feel like I signed up for." So I just kind of started searching, I was on this constant quest to figure out what it was that was going to make me feel better about myself. I was surrounded by all these incredible people, I had friends that were on TV, I had friends that were on Broadway, I had friends that were crushing it as corporate lawyers, I had friends that were starting their own businesses. And I just was like, "There must be something decent about me because all these people like me." Can you imagine thinking that about yourself? I mean, there must be something decent about me. But that was genuinely how I felt. I was like, "Well, I'm really lucky, I'm surrounded by all these incredible people." And I knew that that was a terrible way to think, I just didn't know how to stop thinking that. And I also had this constant feeling of, there's got to be something more than this. There's got to be something more than this for me. And, I feel like I know deep down that I'm capable of way more than this, like there's more for me out there. So I just started, I went... I took an interior design class, I got certified as a yoga teacher, and this was all while I had a full-time job at CBS. And I just started exploring, and at a certain point I was like, "You know what? I can't feel this way anymore. I need somebody to help me." And I went and I started therapy. And through the work I did with my therapist, so I actually had some disordered eating issues, which she helped me to really overcome through mindset work, and I was able to... I mean, we all know it's never about the food, it has nothing to do with the food. And it was very, very largely connected to the way I was feeling about myself and what I did and my kind of meh ness about life in general. And she really helped me to change the way I thought about my body, about myself, about food, and it was all through shifting neural pathways in my brain. She taught me how to do that. And I was like, I had always thought, this is just the way I am. This is just the way I think. And all of a sudden it wasn't just the way I was and it wasn't just the way I thought. And so it started me on this journey of like, well, I want to know more about this. I want to understand this. And I would like everybody in the world to know that that's not just the way you are and it's not just the way you think. So I started just exploring more and more personal development work. While I was at CBS, I kept getting this like, "You should be a life coach. You should be a life coach." And I was like, "What the hell is a life coach? That is such a [censored 00:07:55] idea." And then lo and behold, six or seven years later I decided I was going to become a life coach. I did more and more work and I loved what I was finding, and after taking some time off to be home with my kids and feeling ready to head back into work, I dipped my toe back in entertainment. And I was like, "This isn't it. This is not it. I was right the first time around." I wasn't feeling the sense of what I now can identify as fulfillment, in my day-to-day life. So I decided to look into coaching, the idea of coaching, and as soon as I set foot, well, that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but after the first day of my first class I was like, "This is it. This is my thing. I'm in." I signed up for the whole thing, I did the entire program and that's it, I haven't looked back. And really, there was this whole part of me in that time where I was exploring that had all these ideas about different things that I wanted to do that I thought I could do, and then I just would shut myself down, I never even tried. I had like 30 million entrepreneurial ideas. I really wanted the freedom of my own career, my own business, but I just was convinced I couldn't.

Dan Nelken is our guest on the 348th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Dan is a copywriter and author of A Self-Help Guide for Copywriters. If you’re a creative, you may have fallen into the inner critic rabbit hole that keeps you in a cycle of stuck. But Dan gives practical and actionable steps to move away from creative burnout and into a process that helps you turn surface-level ideas into substance. Tune into the episode to find out: Dan’s experience in ad school and how it shaped his expertise and portfolio.  The grind that turned into a sustainable copywriting career. How to come up with ideas without letting self-doubt, inner critic, and the feeling of stuck get in the way.  The bucket exercise – how to trick your brain into creating ideas.  What’s the creative process and what tools are useful? The two reasons procrastination is keeping you from total creativity.  Why you should use AI to feel inspired rather than disposable.  How to create a swipe folder system and maximize it.  Do you have a habit of following through?  How to make your emotions work for you. The variety of work copywriters can do and industries they can dive into.  How to keep your business alive without feeling resentful and burned out.  Creativity outside of writing – how do we do it? How Dan’s been able to scale back his client projects by 40%.  Listen to the episode or check out the transcript below.  The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Dan's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Creativity is a big part of your work as a copywriter. Whether you're coming up with new angles for leads and headlines or new ideas for content or new approaches for pitches to prospects who you want to work with, creativity plays a big part in all of that, which begs the question, can creativity be systematized? Can processes and formulas help you be more creative? Those approaches feel a little bit uncreative to me, but our guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Dan Nelken, and Dan is here to correct that misconception. He shared several details about his creative process that might help make you more creative too. Stick around for this fun conversation. Kira Hug:  But before we all get super creative here, we just want to share something special for you. We call it the P7 Client Attraction Pipeline, which is kind of a mouthful. You can call it P7 for short. This is our client acquisition system designed specifically to help copywriters create a prospecting habit. So we want to make it really easy for you to fit prospecting into your day so it feels natural. And so, not only do we cover prospecting tools you can use, we give you a bunch of pitching templates and we continue to kind of add new templates that work for copywriters. We also give you industry niches, 293 specifically, so you can figure out which niches you could tap, especially if you feel like the space you're working in currently might be slowing down and not hiring. This is where we can be really flexible and explore other niches to find work. And so, we do all of that inside the pipeline and this program along with supporting you with some behavior shifting that can help you really turn this behavior into a habit so it doesn't become the thing that you try one day and then you stop doing. It does work. We've seen copywriters use these tools and these trainings to gain clients, so it's worth exploring if you don't have a client attraction pipeline in your business. And you can find out more information, thecopywriterclub.com/p7 to find out more information about this client acquisition system. Until then, let's kick off our episode with Dan Nelken. Dan Nelken:  Yeah, it was kind of like, I think a lot of wrong turns and dead ends. I didn't grow up being a writer or a creator. I wasn't even the creative one in my family, I would say my two older brothers were. And so I thought, "Okay, I'll play sports and be the dumb jock and that's my job." And then, it wasn't until I was a bit older and when the house was quiet and it was just my mom and I, I think she was really my first audience where I was able to explore my creativity and saw that, hey, I'm funny too. I had soaked up a lot from my brothers and I was just always so quiet in the house, but still, I think by the time I finished high school, I went into psychology, which is what my mom did, and my dad, there was just something missing. And then I thought, well, sports, yeah, I'll go. And I went into sports broadcasting and it was, while I was doing that program, there was a copywriting class for radio and we had to write and produce radio commercials for the school station. I say it was the only class I ever felt seen by a professor, and it's the first time I ever really enjoyed school and just felt I had some natural instincts and obviously from my upbringing and it just fit. I could just say it was the first time I ever felt that and felt seen by a teacher. And so, obviously, it was pretty clear where I was going to go and still I went to finish my psych degree after that, and then I would have business ideas and I came back to like, well, if you have business ideas, I think I was always kind of entrepreneurial. You had to promote them. I went back to this copywriting thing. So it took me quite a while. When I went to the copywriting program in Toronto, I was 27. I started my career at 28 at an ad agency here in Vancouver. So that was... Rob Marsh:  We talk about the copywriting program or the portfolio program that you went through. So this is actually relatively unique. We haven't talk to a lot of agency copywriters and there's obviously so many paths to get into copywriting in portfolio school or ad school, however each school calls it is one of those paths. I'm really curious about your experience there, what you learned and what you came out of that experience with that helped you land a job at an agency. Dan Nelken:  Well, I think that the biggest thing, once you get into these ad schools, I think people would be shocked at how much you push the work. And the basic rule of thumb you'd see from a book that we were all reading back then, and it's still very relevant is that, Hey, Whipple, Squeeze This by Luke Sullivan. And one of the things he says in that book is to write 1 great headline, you have to write 100. And they took that very literally in the schools, and so it would be 100, 200, 300. Think what they really taught us was how to come up with ideas and that's what you'll learn in a portfolio school, where I think for a lot of copywriting disciplines and ways in, they focus on the writing, and this is ideas first, insights first and then write, because when you have those, the writing actually gets easier and the lines can kind of write themselves. So I think it was that, it was pushing us. That's what I got from that. And then, I think it's just thinking big picture because you're often, the goal is to work for big agencies, which often have big brands. And so, you're learning how to think more conceptually and think in terms of campaigns. And so, when you put together a portfolio out of ad school, it's still the same, although obviously now, it's social and more 360 campaigns, but it wasn't just a one-off ad or it wasn't just showing you could write. It's showing you could come up with a big overarching campaign idea and turn that into a series of headlines or ads. So it just helped me, I think, see the bigger picture, which lends itself to working on bigger brands obviously. Kira Hug:  So then, what happened after school at 28 when you went to the portfolio school? What happened next? Dan Nelken:  I got my old job back driving a forklift in the warehouse. Kira Hug:  That's great. Dan Nelken:  That's what I did. And so, I think I knew I was one of a few students who didn't get an internship for, that's a whole other story, so it was unpaid, but I didn't get it. But I knew enough, I knew I was good enough, and I was very determined to get a job. And so, while I was whatever, cruising around the warehouse or tossing garbage into the baler, I was working on my portfolio. And I would send my book to ad agencies that was back in Vancouver, so the school was in Toronto, and I met with one agency who didn't have a spot for me, referred me to this other one. It was called Cossette. One of the biggest ad agency network works here in Canada. And the creative director said, "Well, are you looking for an internship or a job?" And I thought, well, if one of them's paid, I'm going to choose the job. And it was like a 50% pay cut from the warehouse, but that's how I got my start, and I was on a week to week contract. So every Friday I'd be, "Can I come back on Monday?" for a while. And then, I was an art director there who I didn't have a partner, I just sat there in my little cubicle and he had a brief for this McDonald's. They needed a TV spot, radio spot, billboards, and I don't know, maybe at the time, some print. And he is like, he just threw me this brief. He was like, "Oh, you can work on this if you want." And I just went nuts. Probably within two days, I can't even tell you how many ideas I had. And so, he took a bunch of mine, put them up on the wall with theirs. It was another more mid-level creative team presented to the creative director. And I was in the presentation but didn't say a word, and he picked off, he probably picked off about eight concepts. These would be, and we didn't have radio, but it was like TV spot, billboards.

On the 347th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Linda Perry makes her FOURTH appearance on the show. This episode acts as a friendly reminder to take care of your mindset especially in times of financial uncertainty and business (and life) plateaus. Linda shares how we can continue to grow our mindset toolbelt, so we can stop getting in our own way. Here’s how the episode goes: How Linda’s work has changed over the last few years.  Her dream of moving to Europe and how she made it happen.  What’s the challenge with selling something like mindset? The real reason you keep coming back to your mindset struggles.  How finding your why will help you craft messaging and communicate better.  What tools should copywriters add to their business?  Here’s the real problem with continually purchasing courses and programs.  The 5 traps keeping you from business confidence.  What’s the difference between worth base and value base? Are we telling ourselves a story that keeps us stuck? How to focus on what we can control. Can you be the solution AND the problem in your business?  Why Linda paused her podcast and grew her client roster. The importance of having a sounding board.  The simple shift that’ll help you save time and energy in your business.  Why you shouldn’t be afraid to do something because someone else is doing it.  How defining success will keep you from feelings of shame.  Is the Think Tank the right program for you? Tune into the episode by hitting play or reading the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Linda's website  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Longtime listeners to this podcast will recognize a recurring topic that we revisit from time to time, and that's mindset. Your mindset as a copywriter, as a business owner, as a problem solver impacts everything that you do in your work. It often determines whether you land that client that you've been dreaming of or hit the goals that you've set. And when it comes to mindset, our go-to expert is Linda Perry. She's the guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Linda is a mindset coach who has helped hundreds of copywriters deal with the head trash that gets in the way of all of our success. She's a coach inside the Copywriter Think Tank, and we invited her to talk with us about the challenges facing copywriters, content writers, and other marketers today. Kira Hug:  But first, this podcast episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank. And I'm not going to share a whole lot about the Think Tank because we talk about it with Linda in depth and we talk about a lot of the struggles and wins Copywriter Think Tank members have experienced. Linda is a Think Tank alumni member. So we dive pretty deep into what's possible with the Think Tank in this episode. So stay tuned and if you like what you're hearing about the Think Tank and what's possible, you can learn more at copywriterthinktank.com and jump in there with us. Okay, let's get into our episode with Linda. All right, so let's just catch up real quick because you've had some big life changes that we were just chatting about. I'm very jealous of these life changes that you've made and excited for you. So why don't we just start with how your life and business has changed over the last year. Linda Perry:  Yeah, I could actually just listen to your podcast to track all my changes in life. This would be great. So in the last year, I decided somewhere along the way to pick up and move and leave the States. We now are living in Portugal. I think I've expanded my business as well in terms of who I work with. I still really work with copywriters. I work with a lot of marketers. I've expanded to work with agencies actually to help them really in some of their team building leadership communications aspects and helping them all play a better role. So that's been kind of fun. I also do another sort of assessment with people that's been really fun to do. Lately, as you know, I work on the Enneagram, but I also have been doing this Why Certification that I got, this Why assessment that helps people really understand their why and how they show up and what they do. It's been really cool because it can be validating. It can show me where people's blocks are going to be, but it also gives them a really cool marketing message right away. For example, my why is better ways, so I'm always looking for a better way to do things. If you've hung out with me, you know that's probably true. And how I do that is challenging the system. And what I do is build trusting relationships. And so I've been working with people on that and it just opens up their mind to think about what their strengths are. I think there's such a shortage of our ability to see strengths. So it's been kind of fun because I get to focus a little bit more on how do we create something practical out of mindset, which we know I really like adding that practical aspect. Rob Marsh:  So I'm coming back to the why thing for sure. But before we move on from Portugal and moving over, let's just talk just a little bit more about the mindset around that because it's a big move. You pretty much boxed up everything that you had in the States, it's in a storage unit somewhere and a couple of suitcases and that's it. And now you're in Portugal for a couple of years. Just tell us about the thought process, why you decided that kind of a change, what you're hoping to get personally, maybe even with your business. Linda Perry:  Sure. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, with all of that. Linda Perry:  I also don't want to forget that the other change I made is as I started working with Think Tank. Kira Hug:  Oh, we're going to talk. Rob Marsh:  We'll definitely get to that, yeah. Kira Hug:  Don't worry. Linda Perry:  I don't want to forget that because that's kind of important. Okay, so the mindset around that is, I'll be honest Rob, this is the example of don't let your dreams go. I think when I was 20 I wanted to actually move to Italy. It just sort of was in the back of my head. And then you have children and then you have... I was a lawyer and so all these things happened. And then last summer we went to Croatia as a family. My husband looked at me, he is like, "I could do this." And I was like, "Wait, are you serious? Because I can make this happen," within minutes. I was ready for a change. I missed living in a city. I've always wanted to experience Europe, you know I am. But I always say culturally liminal. There's that big part of me that's so American, but that part of me that's also pretty European. And so what this originally started as is like, "We'll just rent out our house. We'll just start off." And then we started to think, "Well, why? Why rent it out? That's a lot to manage from overseas." So we put our house in the market. We ended up having a lot of headaches around selling our house, but we did it. We were going to go to Portugal, Spain, and Croatia. And then we realized we want to have some routes somewhere and we want to have the ability to travel on weekends and really live that dream life, like Kira you always talk about how I walk my walk. I wanted some place where I could work Monday through Thursday, which I do. And they're a little bit longer hours even here. Friday, I don't touch the computer. I don't look at a computer. We head out somewhere, we do something. When we looked at Portugal, it was weather, it was people. We hadn't stepped foot in it. And we said, "Well..." And I think this is a lot building a business or doing anything, it's like, "Well, I'm going to try it. And if it doesn't work, I can shift." 'I think so much of what I've learned from growing a business, from being an entrepreneur is if it doesn't work, I'll find a different route. And so we just kind of decided. And we had our children's blessing. I mean that was really key. My kids are old enough, they're like, "Can we come with you?" "No, y'all have to work in your own lives." But we had their blessing essentially. And Lisbon isn't that far to come back to the US. So that's the whole mindset. Kira Hug:  So how do you think about your business as you were preparing to make this move? Were there any changes you've had to make to the way you're running the business? Linda Perry:  Yeah, for sure. I mean, I had to go overcome my resistance to working at 8:00 PM at night sometimes, which I do once a week that I teach something at 8:00 at night. There's a lot of resistance to that. I had to think about how do I expand my business in the sense that now I'm in Europe and if I want to work with companies or agencies, I have to start to think about how do I network here and how do I start to really get a foothold into the door of American companies even here to start to work on mindset or entrepreneurs here. The funny thing is I've gotten a bunch of new clients and they're all Europe based. I'm like, "Have y'all been waiting for me to show?" And it's been really nice. So I think I just had to start to expand thinking about how I was going to do it and am I going to fly back to the US, like how am I juggling some of that and realized it would all figure itself out. But I definitely had some resistance around working late, but I get my mornings. Kira Hug:  Well, can you just speak to how you got your clients, your European clients? I mean, it sounds like it kind of magically happened. You moved and you found these new clients, but- Rob Marsh:  No effort whatsoever on your part, I'm sure, yeah. Kira Hug:  Right.

Dr. Rebecca Fortgang is our guest on the 346th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Dr. Becky is a clinical psychologist, an instructor at Harvard Medical School, and a research scientist at Massachusetts General Hospital. Just a light background, huh? Kira knew Dr. Becky had to be on the show after taking her class, and she did not disappoint. Take a peek inside the conversation: Is willpower a muscle? What’s all the debate around willpower?  What do willpower and love have in common? Researching topics with inconclusive and incomplete data – this work has to start somewhere.  Tools creative entrepreneurs can use to be more productive. Why do people really quit on their goals? What to do when lapses happen and what are they trying to tell us? How to avoid spiraling and what we should do instead.  What’s a goal cleanse?  Are you a failure if you quit a long-term goal? How to find alternate goals if you can’t let goals go.  The clear-cut approach to setting goals and achieving them. What is “gripping the table” self-control and how can we do less of it? How your future self can motivate you in completing your goals TODAY.  Is sacrifice needed to attain goals?  Strategies to stop procrastinating and how to tap into your willpower.  Can you convince yourself to be in the right headspace?  How can you prioritize mental health in your life? Tune into the episode to listen to all the insights. The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Rebecca's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Most copywriters we know share an interest in psychology and figuring out what makes people tick. After all, if you're writing something to convince your prospect to buy or to take some kind of action, you need to understand them. But our interest in psychology often goes well beyond persuasion tactics and mental heuristics. Our guest for today's episode of The Copywriter Club podcast is Dr. Rebecca Fortgang, who specializes in willpower, goal setting and mental health. Just as a quick side note, she was Kira's professor last year in a class she took, and I like to point out that it was at Harvard University, the CURE Harvard student. We talked with Rebecca about the ins and outs of willpower, overcoming procrastination, mental health, and a lot more. We think you're really going to like this episode. Kira Hug:  But before we jump in, we are going to promote something because that's what we do. So today, Rob, I want to talk about our new-ish course, not like brand new but new as in couple months ago. Our AI for copywriters course, which is available to all writers. And the reason I want to mention it today is because we're adding a certification to it, a prompt engineer certification, because we know as we've been talking to a lot of startups, especially on our new podcast, AI for Creative Entrepreneurs, we're interviewing different startups and they're talking about the need for prompt engineers and that it's hard to find prompt engineers right now, and writers are really set up to succeed in that role because we ask good questions. We think about prompting in a creative way, and there is no university that has a prompt engineer program right now. There's this new need in the marketplace and there aren't enough people to fill that role. We're creating the program that you need to train you to not only provide the training, but also to give you a certification, and that usually means a boost of confidence for you to go out there and maybe even update your LinkedIn title to include prompt engineer and maybe even pitch yourself or go after opportunities that you wouldn't normally have gone after. And so you can work through that certification. It's not easy. Rob's making it very difficult to get it, but it's a tough certification because we want you to feel confident and well-trained before you actually achieve it. Rob Marsh:  It's not easy, but it's also not honors. It's not something you're going to have to sit in a classroom for four or five hours and work through. We teach all the information in the course that you need. As long as you go through that, do the practices, read the prompts and things that we share, you'll have the information that you need to get that certification. But it's also not the kind of thing that you'll be able to just show up and do without doing the work. And that's really the way certifications should work. So if you want to earn a certification as a prompt engineer, as a copywriter who knows what they're doing when it comes to writing prompts for large language models like ChatGPT, go to thecopywriterclub.com/ai4c, that is the number four C, and you can find the program there and the certification that we've just included recently. Kira Hug:  Okay. Let's kick off our episode with Dr. Rebecca Fortgang. I am curious to hear how did you end up as a clinical psychologist? Dr. Rebecca Fortgang:  I actually really did not mean to, my parents are both clinical psychotherapists, so growing up when I was a little kid, I did want to be a therapist just like them or a hairdresser, but then through adolescence I was pretty committed to forging my own path. And when I went to college I studied linguistics. But I think that for people who actually are fortunate enough to be raised by psychotherapists, it's a really wonderful thing and it hooked me. It's a lens on the world that I kept coming back to. And by the end of college I really had, I did a thesis on schizophrenia and language and then by the end of that experience I was more committed to pursuing an interest in mental health and in psychology broadly. I think it's just an endlessly fascinating topic that there's no one who probably doesn't find some element of their own minds or other people's minds interesting. I continued, after college I had a position at the National Institute of Mental Health and I was in a lab that focused on schizophrenia. And by the end of those two years I was really hooked by a few key topics that actually still guide my career now. One of them was schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders. One is impulsivity and self-control, and the third is suicide, suicidal thoughts and behaviors. And suicide of course is an outcome that's tragic and that's far too often the result of impulsive decision making. And so that's the constellation of things that I got interested in at the beginning and continued to be interested in. And I followed that path to graduate school at Yale and then a postdoctoral fellowship at Harvard, and then now I'm early career faculty at Harvard Medical School. Rob Marsh:  That's amazing. You mentioned psychotherapy as a lens on the world. And I know it's really hard for us to step out of our own lenses to compare it to maybe what another lens would be, but I'm interested in going deeper on that. How does that change the way that you see the world versus someone like me who maybe doesn't have that same kind of training but is maybe still interested in that? Dr. Rebecca Fortgang:  Absolutely. I think psychology broadly is more the lens on the world, maybe even more so than psychotherapy in particular. And when I say that, I mean psychology includes also the study of the human mind and not only that interaction with someone to try to improve their lives and promote healing. I think both of those have been really important parts of my career and are really special to me and endlessly fascinating. And what they both share is a focus on people's internal experiences as part of understanding their behaviors and possibly promoting change. So even when someone does something that really annoys me, my first impulse is to try to understand what's going on in their minds that led to those behaviors that are bothering me. And so that's what by a lens on the world. I cannot stop myself from trying to understand what is going on in the internal worlds of other people and how that helps to explain their own individual behavior, how those behaviors come together to create social systems and larger systems in our world. I think that's how psychologists typically think. So for people who are really drawn to that lens, trying to understand their own minds, the minds of others, sometimes it can be just an inescapable career path, because for some of us it's so clearly endlessly fascinating. Kira Hug:  I want to talk about willpower, because I was lucky enough to be in your class in the fall where we focused on willpower for the entire semester. You are the reason I went vegan-ish. Dr. Rebecca Fortgang:  Are you still- Rob Marsh:  Speaking of willpower. Vegan-ish, yes. I love that. Kira Hug:  The ish gives me a 10% wiggle room there, but yes, still there. But could we talk about, I guess starting by defining willpower and what maybe you've discovered over the last year or two through the class and through your studies and research about willpower that's been surprising. Dr. Rebecca Fortgang:  Willpower, it's defined typically as the self-control that can be used to do something that you might not feel like doing or to restrain impulses that you do feel like, to avoid immediate gratification in order to pursue longer term goals or to move your behavior also in line with your higher order values. It's choosing the future rather than now. It's overriding your immediate impulses in order to pursue something that's important to you but doesn't line up with those immediate impulses. And it's true that you were in my class. I was so lucky to have you as a student,

Kate Hollis is our guest on the 345th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kate is a copywriter and sales strategist whose alter ego is a librarian, but her skillset doesn’t stop there. Fueled by curiosity, she’s also on track to become a certified Enneagram practitioner. With her “hummingbird” mindset, she emphasizes the value of leading a curiosity-driven life, and how it can lead to a more fulfilling life and business. Here’s how the conversation goes: What’s the bus metaphor and how does it apply to business? Kate’s path to copywriting and owning a business. Why creating connections with others will help you become a better copywriter.  How to create an identity outside of your business.  Is simple messaging underrated? How to build your intellectual and emotional muscles. What is the Enneagram?  How books will help you become a more compassionate salesperson.  The benefits of using the Enneagram in your messaging and how it’ll benefit your ideal audience.  How the Enneagram can influence your sales funnels.  The do’s and don’ts of the Enneagram.  Could you be holding yourself back from essential growth? Tune into the episode below or by reading the transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Kate's website  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  What is it about personality tests that draws us to them? From Myers-Briggs and StrengthsFinder to DiSC and the Enneagram and lots more besides those, humans tend to be attracted to tests and quizzes that promise to reveal something about ourselves and the people around us. Maybe it's our innate curiosity that drives this behavior. I don't know. But our guest for today's episode of The Copywriter Club podcast is copywriter and strategist Kate Hollis. And Kate is a certified Enneagram coach who uses that test a little differently than most other people do, as a way to think about positioning your offers. To hear how she does it, you're going to have to stay tuned. Kate also talked a bit about the books that she's read and how to stay curious as a creative. There's a lot to learn from her in this episode, so stay tuned. Kira Hug:  We also talk about poop in this episode, which Rob did not include in the intro, but I think it's the first time that we've ever talked about that. Rob Marsh:  Barely. It gets mentioned. Let's be honest. We didn't talk about it, mentioned it. Kira Hug:  It's the first time we've ever mentioned it on the podcast. Rob Marsh:  I think so. Kira Hug:  So I think it deserves some attention. Also, this podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Think Tank, which is our mastermind, and I'm going to do something that you're not supposed to do as a copywriter. We're supposed to talk about benefits, but I'm going to talk about features today and everything that's included in the Think Tank. So I'm going to run through it, and Rob, let me know if I'm missing anything. These are the features you get when you join our Think Tank mastermind, which is phenomenal. You get access to our upcoming virtual retreat that is coming up really soon on June 1st and 2nd. It's not too late. You could actually be a part of that amazing virtual retreat that we put together with at least like eight different speakers talking about a variety of topics, talking about how to use AI in a project from start to finish. What other topics do we have covered, Rob, in the retreat? Rob Marsh:  Talking about things like email deliverability, finding clients and how you do that when your business has been going relatively well and then suddenly you hit a tough patch. There's just such a wide range. I don't have the list in front of me, unfortunately. Otherwise, I could join you in pimping up some of these speakers that we've got lined up. Kira Hug:  Well, you're talking about profit margins. I'm going to talk about my tips for running a business in summer of 2023, what's working today, what's no longer working, and so that's the retreat and that's coming up and you will definitely want to jump into that retreat. Here's what else you get when you join us in the Think Tank. Other features, you get a one-hour vision setting session with the two of us where we force you to think really big even though it feels uncomfortable about your business. So the two of us sit down with you for that kickoff session followed by separate focus mapping sessions where I build a map with you so that you have a three-month growth plan and every time we hit three months, we sit down and rebuild it or continue to add on what you've already built. So you always have a plan and know what to focus on and know what you can put on the back burner and what you don't have to worry about. You also get quarterly one-on-one checking calls with the two of us or whichever one you want to reach out to, Rob, me, either one of us. You also get weekly group check-in calls with our Think Tank crew who they're incredible and you get weekly access to them, and I'm on every single Tuesday check-in call so that you can get support. You can just feel like you're not alone doing this entire thing by yourself. You get three retreats throughout the entire year. We're really excited about the fall retreat. Rob, are you excited about the fall retreat? Rob Marsh:  I'm always excited about going to London. It's my favorite city in the world, and so yeah, I'm very stoked. Kira Hug:  I'm stoked for the pub crawl that we will also do in London while we're there, and I will drag you out beyond midnight for that. We also include monthly strategic group coaching sessions where Rob and I host hot seats and talk through business problems every single month. We have a mindset coach, Linda Perry, who comes in to support us with mindset and give you the support you need there. We also dig into systems and all the automations in your business so you can get access to our systems coach Johnny Stellar, who is truly stellar. And you have 24/7 Slack access to all of us. There are more features, but those are the highlights. We'll talk about benefits in a future episode, but often we're just asked what actually do you get in the Mastermind? And that is the list. Those are the features. So if you are interested in shifting your business, creating a new revenue stream, boosting your revenue over the remainder of the year and into 2024, you can check out The Copywriter Think Tank and learn more at CopywriterThinkTank.com. Let's get into our episode with Kate. How did you end up as a conversion copywriter? Kate Hollis:  Very unexpectedly and in the way that I think a lot of professional copywriters do. I just remember having this conversation with one of my managers from when I was in the corporate world where she was asking what my goals were for 5, 10 years, and I just said something along the lines of, "Well, I just want to do work that's interesting and challenging." And she said something along the lines of, "You really need to be driving the bus." I had this moment where I was like, I want to be riding the bus and looking out the window, and it was just so easy to fall into this rhetoric. I think that the bus metaphor is very appropriate for my career history because I've done a lot of really fascinating eclectic jobs. I graduated from college when the economy was really, really low, and so opportunities were limited, so I had to be really creative and flexible. So my first job after graduating with a degree in history and professional writing was working in historic preservation. So I managed community outreach programs and tax credits and grants for old homes in the Boston area, which was really interesting, but not what I wanted to do enough to get a Master's degree to continue. And then I ended up in the startup world working for a chocolate factory, and it was super small when I started and it scaled 10 times in size in the three years that I was there. I wore a lot of different hats. I wrapped chocolate bars, I did customer service, and then eventually I did marketing, trade shows, events and ultimately ended up in human resources, which was the bulk of my career for a decade. I went into the nonprofit world working for a health and human services organization, doing HR for their employees. And then I went big corporate and I did HR for a global footwear brand. I had some detours in academia. I had this idea that I was going to get a PhD in rhetoric and composition, started that, realized it wasn't what I wanted, worked part-time at a wine shop, loved that. And then when I was in corporate, I just burned out really hard. I went back to work when my son was eight weeks old, I had postpartum depression and it was just like a recipe for a disaster. I made it a year and then just took some time. I tried to get into HR consulting. I didn't really get much traction, so I hired an amazing life coach who saw that I was a really good writer and she was doing a launch. And as one of her clients, I was able to participate in this program as part of my coaching package with her. And she sent me the sales page and I was like, "Um, can I change some things on this?" And she's like, "Yeah, absolutely, go for it," and so I pretty much rewrote her sales page and she sold out the event within a day. She's like, "You're onto something," and so from there, it was just for the first six months of my business, I was kind of like a best-kept secret where I didn't have a website. I worked exclusively by word of mouth doing sales pages, and I realized that I was good at it and I really liked it. The rest is history.

Paulo Faustino is our guest on the 344th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Paulo is a serial entrepreneur and digital marketing expert who shares his experience in building and scaling businesses even in the midst of chaos. From writing 550 articles for $100 to scaling a millionaire-dollar business, Paulo shares insights all business owners can glean. Tune into the episode to find out: How a gut feeling kept him on the path to entrepreneurship. How he scaled his business to a million dollars and why it took an extreme hit.  The pivot he made to save his business and grow his audience.  What is affiliate marketing and how can it benefit your business? How to navigate a financial loss and why fear cannot stop you from moving forward.  This reality of business can make or break you.  The 4 foundational pieces your business need to thrive. Why marketing and authority go hand in hand? When does the sale really start?  The effects of a world-class client experience.  Why it’s not your job to fix all your client’s problems (including money mindset). How to filter the types of clients you work with.  The simpler and faster way to save time and energy in your business.  The ins and outs of Paulo’s social media marketing strategy and how he grew his following and email list to hundreds of thousands.  How to bring aligned content to your audience.  Why you need to focus on value rather than design.  What Paulo would do differently if he could start over. Authority grows when you have these two things.  The current struggles of a high-earning entrepreneur.  Press play or check out the transcript below.  The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Paulo's Instagram The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Building a business is hard. Sometimes things go really well. Clients are plentiful. The work is fun and rewarding, and the money comes in, and other times things don't go so well. Laws change or the algorithm changes or the economy changes and the client pipeline dries up. The work is hard and the money runs out. Our guest for today's episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Paulo Faustino, and he built a thriving affiliate business that collapsed in less than a month, thanks to a change in the laws. He had just enough money to last four months, which means that he had to completely rebuild his business in 120 days and in this interview, he tells us how he did it, and along the way, he shares a ton of great business advice for anyone who's trying to build their own business. Kira Hug:  But before we jump into this interview, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank, which is our mastermind for copywriters who want to figure out a new revenue stream for their business and launch something new that can transform their business in the year ahead. We have a retreat coming up actually in a couple weeks. In early June, we have our next retreat, and if you want to be a part of that mastermind retreat where we bring in top speakers where Rob and I teach and share. Well, Rob, what are you sharing? Rob Marsh:  I think we're going to talk about profits, profit margins, and how do you increase the money that's coming in, but we'll cover a lot of other stuff too. We have guests who are speaking about the client buying cycle and how to implement the things that were taught by Eugene Schwartz. We're pulling in guests to talk about all kinds of things like email and such. So, definitely worth tuning in and learning from all of these experts as well as the super smart people that are already in the think tank. Kira Hug:  Yes, so that is coming up in June and if you are listening to this, it is not too late to apply and possibly participate in that upcoming retreat if it's a good fit for you. So, you can learn more at copywriterthinktank.com. All right, let's kick off our episode with Paulo. Paulo Faustino:  So, I started in 2007 and I started building companies in 2005. I built my first company when I was 19 years old and it was a technology company. We sell computers and all overclocking stuff and water cooling stuff and I started there. I left the company in 2007 and I went home with some bills to pay, and the first thing I searched on Google was how to make money online and that was my start because no one was searching for digital marketing or all that stuff because no one speak spoke about that at the time. So, they were speaking about how to make money online. That was the thing and I started there and I found a lot of really interesting North American stuff from Jeremy Schumacher, from Darren Rose, from John Chow, and a lot of different entrepreneurs that were teaching at a time how to make money online. There was a lot of different strategies like affiliate marketing, like PPC, like a lot of other things, and Google Adsense, and I started going deep on affiliate marketing and that's my journey. My journey started as an affiliate market and I started in 2007. In the end of the year, I was building forums and blogs related to affiliate marketing on the sports betting industry, which was the industry I selected because I loved football and I love football, or soccer, like you guys. I love soccer, and I went there and I was creating contents every single day about football, football predictions, football analysis and a lot of stuff, and one day in 2007, I entered in one of the affiliate marketing companies I was registered on, and there was a 30 euro commission and that was my eureka moment, like God. God, this works. I just need to know how to do this every single day and that was my drive. So, it started there. In 2008, I created a blog called Get Rich, in Portuguese, "get rich," and I started documenting every single thing I was learning online, like SEO, like creating content, creating blogs, affiliate marketing strategies to make money online. Everything. I was documenting everything and on the first year, I posted 550 articles just on the first year and I won 100 bucks on the first year, which was incredible. 100 bucks. Rob Marsh:  Wait, did that feel like a win, $100 dollars with five? Or were you just like, "Wow, this is going slower than I thought"? Paulo Faustino:  Yeah, but I don't know why, but I was seeing these Americans making 100K with Google AdSense, making a lot of money on the affiliate marketing and I was... Man, just keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going and at the time, I had some part-times. I worked on a café. I worked in a hostel and I was doing some other stuff to bring some more money than 100 bucks, but I was completely focused on that because I don't know why and that's really strange. Every time I speak about my story is that I can't understand why, but I knew that I should keep going on that path. I don't know why and I keep posting article after article after article and in 2010, I did a rebranding on the blog and it went from Get Rich to Money School and in 2010, I was doing like 2K a month already, and we launched Afiliados Brasil, the Brazil affiliate events on that year, the first edition. So, I started there. In 2013, I already had my spouse with me. We met in 2009 and we started working together in 2010, 2011, 2012 and in 2013, we created our company, which is our digital marketing agency, but at the time, there wasn't any agency. It was just a company to invoice all the affiliate marketing stuff we were doing. So, from 2013 to 2016, we were full-time affiliate marketers. We didn't did anything else. In 2014, we were making a million a year with four people on the affiliate marketing, on sports betting. We were the second-biggest affiliate marketing player on the bating industry in Portugal and one of the top 10 in the world. So, we were doing really, really good, but in 2015, there was a regulation in Portugal. So, every sports betting brands closed the operation in Portugal and we went from like 100K a month to 5K. Kira Hug:  Oh, wow. Wow. Paulo Faustino:  That was the moment we decided to create the agency because we were working for several years, almost 10 years, and we had a lot of knowledge and we decided to starting to deliver services to other brands with that knowledge. If we know how to do this for us, we can help probably some brands and other companies to do the same. So, that was the moment we decided to launch the agency and that's it. We have a lot of other stuff because in 2016, we launched the agency. We created a physical event, a two-day event, related to digital marketing and entrepreneurship here, which is Think Conference, and in 2017, we started to do in-person training related to digital marketing and digital marketing, social media, and all that stuff and there was a boom. After 2017, 2018, we had a boom. For you to know, in 2018, when we did the last edition of Think Conference before the pandemic, because we did in 2016, 2018, and we were doing in 2020, but there was a pandemic. So, we stopped and we are relaunching this year, but in 2018 when we did the last edition of the conference, I had 5,000 followers on Instagram. So, from 2018 to 2023, I grow up from 5K on Instagram to almost 270K. So, our email list went from like 20K to 350K. So, there was a lot of things. I like to look back and look at this as the compounding effects because you are working, working, working, and in a moment, the growing is so fast because it's compounding. It's compounding. So, it was probably between 2018 that we went really fast, really, really fast, and on the pandemic,

We’re bringing Brittany McBean back for the 343rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. It’s been 3 years since Brittany’s been on the show and a lot of has changed for her and her business. From highs and lows of building a 6-figure business, she’s completely transparent in her journey and how other copywriters can use her wisdom to grow their own business. Here’s how the conversation goes:  Why Brittany works on long projects and what it does for her client retention.  The benefits of having a highly-automated inquiry process.  Why she’s not looking for a 500k year but this instead.  The raw and real downsides of business.  Her hiring process – why you need to know what you need and how to hire based on two specific criteria.  The imposter complex pops up even for high-level copywriters? What is a malleable role and how can it fit into your business (with boundaries)? How to be a better leader to your team when things are falling off track. Her process for letting someone go. Why your role changes as you grow into your business as CEO.  How to have humanizing and empathetic conversations with your team. What’s working in the marketing world today and what needs to change? Is your audience jaded?  How to create shifts in your messaging to position yourself as the answer.  What’s the deal with urgency and scarcity? Her process for strategy and writing copy.  What’s the hierarchy of messaging? How to get fewer revisions on the final copy.  How belief can hold you back for far too long.  Tune into the episode by hitting play or checking out the transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Brittany's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Brittany's first episode Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Growth and change are a natural part of starting and building a business. And sometimes it all goes smoothly, other times it can be a little bit painful. But, ultimately we have to figure this stuff out in order to succeed as copywriters and as business owners. Our guest for today's episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is returning once again to share what she's learned as she's built her copywriting agency and helped dozens of high-end clients build their businesses too. Strategist and copywriter, Brittany McBean is here to share what's happened to her business over the last couple of years, why she hit pause on her YouTube channel, the struggles of managing employees, mental health, and a lot more. It's another great interview that you're definitely going to want to stick around for. Kira Hug:  But, before we jump into the interview, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank. That's our mastermind for copywriters, content writers, strategists, marketers, you name it. If you're a creative and you're building a service-based business and creating scalable offers or products, new podcast, you will be a good fit in this room. Brittany McBean, today's guest is a Think Tank alumni member, so we were lucky enough to work with her in the Think Tank. And we do have a retreat coming up in our Think Tank. It's a virtual retreat coming up June 1st and 2nd. So, if you would like to be a part of that virtual retreat and meet our entire Think Tank crew, it's not too late. You can reach out to us and we can chat about whether or not the Think Tank makes sense for you. One thing I feel like we don't typically talk about when we talk about the Think Tank, Rob, is what new members can expect when they join, and how we help them immediately over the first month. And so, I thought we could just touch on that real quick, because I feel like it's always mysterious when you join a mastermind, kind of like what's actually going to happen when you get in and walk into the room. So, Rob, what do you feel like works well for new members when they join us that maybe they don't know or expect? Rob Marsh:  Well, a lot of masterminds, it's just a group of people that get together and talk and share ideas or whatever. But, we've combined a mastermind with coaching. And so, we start out with two pretty intensive calls where we help everyone set goals. And it's not the simple, how much do you want to make? Move on, what do you want to do with your business? We go really deep and we challenge each person who joins the Think Tank to think bigger, to think differently about their business. And then, we sit down with them and really scope out how they can achieve one of these big goals that they've set. We come up with a strategy for achieving it. We identify things that might get in the way. How they might move forward, really to set them up for a big success, hopefully in the first few months that they're with us. And then, we can repeat that process over and over, over the year or two or three that they're in the Think Tank to help them continue to keep growing their businesses. So, we look for some wins pretty fast, because we want to make sure that everybody who joins is really seeing the changes, the growth that they want. Kira Hug:  And that looks like, typically three different sessions with the two of us, with at least one of us on those sessions helping you figure out the vision for your business, the next stage of your business. And then, creating a focus map that will help you get there, and achieve that aspiration that you set for yourself over the next three to six months. And so, those are three really valuable sessions that I think surprise and delight many of our members. And so, that's something that could help you if you feel like you're not sure about what you're doing next, or maybe you do have a clear vision but you're not sure how to get there and how to get out of your own way, or deal with those obstacles. So, if that's the kind of thing that sounds like it might be helpful to you and you're excited to participate in the virtual retreat and possibly even join us at some of the upcoming in-person retreats, you can learn more at thecopywriterthinktank.com. And I said the, but it's actually copywriterthinktank.com. That's the kind of thing we help copywriters do in the Think Tank. So, if this sounds of interest to you, you can find out more at copywriterthinktank.com. Let's get into our episode with Brittany. Rob Marsh:  Brit, tell us what you've been doing since the last time you were on the podcast. What's been going on? Brittany McBean:  Oh, a lot. Last time I was here, I thought I knew everything. Kira Hug:  I thought you did too. Rob Marsh:  But, we've got you back, because now you do know everything and we can correct everything that we talked about before that was wrong. Brittany McBean:  No, talking to you feels like Neil deGrasse Tyson asking a five-year-old like why bubbles are great. Rob Marsh:  I can't think of a more incorrect analogy that I've ever heard in my life, but whatever. Kira Hug:  But, it's a fun one. I like that one. It's really fun. Brittany McBean:  I think all of your, or a large majority of your listeners have experienced just the wild up and down of the last two years were we thought we were in a recession, but then actually it turned out we were in this boom that all the money was coming in, but then we were actually really burnt out, because we were doing all of this work for all the money, and then the actual recession hit and now a carton of eggs is the same price as Alexis, and oh, by the way, there's AI. And so, I've just been riding the rollercoaster and the ups and the downs, and we've grown our team, and then shrunk the team, and then grown the team, and then shrunk the team. And launched some new products, and then went a little bit heavier on client work and heavier on products, and just ebbs and flows in all of it. It’s exactly the same. Rob Marsh:  It's been crazy for sure. Kira Hug:  Well, let's talk about how you have managed the rollercoaster that you just described. How do you approach it knowing that there's constant change, ups and downs to make strategic decisions about the business and know when to grow, when to shrink? Brittany McBean:  I think one thing I'm realizing now that things have slowed down is, pausing and looking back and realizing that a lot of decisions weren't massively strategic. There was a lot of intentionality and thought behind them, but because things were growing really fast, there was a lot of, in the moment like, let's just do this thing. And it doesn't mean that everything was done last minute and in a panic, or just reactionary, but there wasn't a lot of, I want to do this thing, and then a year later let's make it happen. It was like, let's make a project plan and in 12 weeks make this happen kind of thing. And now I get to have that really strategic, what do I want this to be? Does anything need to massively shift or change? I think that there's, the thing that I've always been the most intentional about and strategic about is how we work with our clients. Because, I think that that's a thing that since I started doing and have, I'm still doing and every single time we've been able to look back and say, what could we do differently? What can we do differently? How can we optimize? What can we tweak? Is there anything that needs to change? Can we add, can we, by subtraction? So, I think that's always been where the most thought and intentionality has been, but that doesn't mean that there hasn't been a deep level of intentionality elsewhere when it comes to hiring, or when it comes to teaching, or products, or the program that I mentor other copywriters or anything like that. But,

Alyssa Burkus is our guest on the 341st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Alyssa is a thought leadership and content marketer. She started her business after being faced with asking life’s big questions after a chronic cancer prognosis but has defied the odds over and over again by building a business that works for her, her health, and her family. While we may not all be faced with life-threatening illnesses, we all face uncertainty and downsides. Alyssa shares the systems she has in place to look after what matters most. Here’s how the conversation goes: How her background in a global change consulting company has impacted her copywriting career.  Why she leaned into thought leadership and authority building as her area of specialization.  What really is thought leadership and how is it different from other forms of content marketing? Is all content marketing created equal? Tools to cope with uncertainty.  The importance of energy management for your personal and business life.  What AI doesn’t have on thought leadership. What’s Alyssa’s strategy for working with a new client on building their authority? How to strategically repurpose content.  Using the “plant and…” approach to pivoting.  How to create writing habits that stick as a writer.  Why it’s a good idea to have a place you can relearn information.  “Write it in your own words” is making a comeback.  How she sold out her first program with no list.  What can you modify in your products or services to make them stand out? The #1 question you need to ask yourself when creating a course.  Why you can’t hustle culture your way through business.  Morning routines vs morning windows… What’s the difference? Press play or check out the transcript below.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Alyssa's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  What does it mean to be a thought leader? What kind of content does a thought leader produce? And maybe the biggest question of all, once you've got good content that reflects your strategic thinking, how do you make sure that the world will even see it? Those are just three questions that we asked our guest for today's episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Alyssa Burkus is a strategist, a copywriter, a member of the Think Tank and a thought partner for her clients, and she shared how she helps them build their audience with great thinking. We also talked about working through serious difficulties, what to do when change becomes a constant, how to pivot and creating a writing habit that will actually stick. This is an episode definitely worth listening to twice. Kira Hug:  Or maybe three times. Maybe four times. Before we get to the interview though, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank. That is our mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to figure out the next phase of their business. Some things are working well in their business, but they want to figure out what comes next; they want to increase their revenue; they want to figure out new revenue streams, increase visibility and really figure out what their X factor looks like, so they can build a business around that. We actually have a retreat coming up in June. It's a virtual retreat on June 2nd and 3rd. So it's coming up fast, and if you want to participate in that, you can apply today to see if you're a good fit in the Copywriter Think Tank. We also have a retreat that we're really excited about coming up in September in London, and Rob and I are thrilled to have an excuse to fly to London and hang out with copywriters. It doesn't get better than that, does it, rob? Rob Marsh:  Does not get better than hanging out with copywriters in the UK. Kira Hug:  All right, so Rob, I have a quick question for you. You've been to many retreats that we've hosted and that you've been a part of. I wonder which one stands out as maybe a favorite retreat that you've participated in or have hosted and why? Rob Marsh:  Ooh, that's a really hard question to answer, because most of them are pretty good. Let me just speak in general. So I really like retreats where I come away with ideas that I can implement in my business; that is the thing that sets them apart. So, I've been to events where I'm excited, I'm jazzed up, and then I get home. It's like, "Well, how do I actually execute on that thing?" And for me, the ones that really set it apart is: Here's a tactic, here's exactly how you implement it, here are the steps and they really walk you through that. So that stuff makes a difference to me and it makes it feel more useful, gives me a pattern that I can follow to make sure that I'm making changes in my business and, hopefully, it makes my business grow or changes some way that I can reach new people, that kind of thing. So that's the stuff that makes the difference to me, and we've been in a couple of masterminds where we've had that. So a couple of Brian Kurtz's groups that we attended. He recently just ended his mastermind, but when we were in it, there were a few people like that where I just walked away. I'm like, "Wow, these are five ideas that I want to implement." And in the mastermind that you and I are in currently, that happens virtually every time, and I hope it's something that we deliver every time we have a Think Tank retreat as well. Kira Hug:  Yes. I thought you were going to say Barcelona. Barcelona. Rob Marsh:  Barcelona was a lot of fun for a lot of reasons, and that one actually had some really good takeaways. We talked very specifically about how you can charge for the value of content, which is something that a lot of people don't know how to do. We teach it in the accelerator, but it's one of those kinds of things where... These are the things that don't often get taught in the real world because they're kind of complex. They involve spreadsheets and multiple steps, and oftentimes you just have to be in the room to learn this stuff. Kira Hug:  We also played a very competitive game of foosball in the basement of that house in Barcelona. I was quite a fierce competitor. I don't think we played, Rob. I don't think you- Rob Marsh:  I did not play you. I've learned my lessons in playing you. If I lose, it's embarrassing. And if I win, it destroys our relationship, so. Kira Hug:  So if you're listening and you're interested in being a part of a mastermind that could help you figure out what's next in your business and not just give you ideas, but give you a plan and provide coaching not only from us, the two of us, but from a mindset coach, from a visibility coach, from a systems and growth coach, so you have all the coaching support you need to actually make the shift in your business, check out copywriterthinktank.com for more information. Okay, let's kick off our episode with Alyssa. Alyssa Burkus:  It is a long and windy path. I've been a reader and a writer for a long time, but didn't follow that as a career path initially. I didn't really realize or know how to make it a real job, and so I did the regular thing, or at least what the people around me were doing. I went to university and then I also did grad school and I took a corporate job at a global change consulting company; which I had done my undergrad in sociology, and so this felt like this giant leap forward, which was exciting. The work really involved the training and communications around large technology implementations for giant companies. So if you can imagine, the note from the CEO of a company about a new program was written by people like me, sort of corporate comms, but for specific change programs. I did that for a number of years and progressed and really enjoyed it, but the work was grueling. I was a newlywed at this point. I was on the road a lot. And so, I made the decision like a number of other people around me at the time, and I jumped from this giant global company into a startup. I was at a tech startup, I was employee #11, doing a mix of project work and also setting up their HR function for the first time, which was really fun. My partner was already working there. We were newlyweds. It was really a great decision, really exciting project. About a year into it, I was diagnosed for the first time with cancer, with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. So all this momentum that I was feeling around my career and life kind of ground to a halt. I had six months of chemo. And as I was going through this, our company was acquired by a giant technology company. And so, as I am kind of recovering, I'm stepping back into the world that I had thought I'd escaped and I was back into all the corporate things, and also trying to figure out what the new normal would be for my life. I was diagnosed with chronic cancer, so we knew that it would recur. I was given a prognosis that was, I guess, encouraging from the doctor's perspective, but worrisome from our perspective. And so having to make decisions, what do I do for my job? Do we have kids? Do we plan a vacation? Do we save for retirement? Heady things that were tricky at the time. But we just decided that we needed to act as if I would live a long time, that there would be a cure in my lifetime, and so we started doing regular people things again. We had a baby. But as I was in this big giant company, I was getting really restless. I'm not really cut out for big companies. And so I started my first company, Change Consulting Company, and made that transition into entrepreneur life,

Rob and Kira sit down on the 340th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to chat about a few episodes that have stood out to them over the last 5 years. Yup, they’re jumping all the way back in the archives to tap into what still applies to today’s copywriting arena and how you can use past insight to your business today. Here’s how the conversation goes: The copywriting event happening in London in 2023. The FREE A.I. challenge being hosted THIS week. Rob and Kira’s new A.I for Creative Entrepreneurs podcast. Why Joel Klettke didn’t start with beginner rates and jumped straight into value rates? How to turn mindset and confidence into action. The difference between an employee mindset and an entrepreneurial mindset. Do you need a portfolio to start charging higher rates? How to shift our mindset around the imposter complex. The benefits of imposter complex. The 12 lies of the imposter complex and what to do about it. What is The Stone Soup tale and how does it apply to copywriting? How to become the go-to copywriter in the room. Jereshia’s advice on high-ticket sales as a copywriter. The real difference between low-ticket and high-ticket sales. Are you being a spork? What are the POP and the Champagne Closer methods? How to lead a sales call with authority. Tune into the episode below by hitting play or reading the transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: Join the AI Challenge  The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 21 with Joel Klettke Episode 47 with Tanya Geisler Episode 36 with Ken McCarthy Episode 204 with Jereshia Hawk  Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Today's episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is number 340. Not very many podcasts have that long of a lifespan. Most stop a long time before that. In fact, I've heard some people say that the average podcast lasts about 12 to 15 episodes. I'm not sure how correct those numbers are. But we are fully committed to keeping this podcast going because talking to copywriters, content writers, and other marketers isn't just a learning experience for us, it's fun. You are our people, and talking to copywriters is honestly one of the most enjoyable things that we do every week. Having said that, there are a lot of great episodes you probably haven't listened to yet, especially if you've only been listening to the podcast for the last year or so. And even if you've heard every single episode, I'm tempted to wave at our mothers here, Kira, although my mom has passed, but your mom maybe is one of the few that's listened to every episode. Kira Hug:  She has not listened to every episode. Rob Marsh:  She should have. But if you've listened to every episode, you've probably forgotten some of the phenomenal advice that we've heard over the years. So we thought today we would share just a couple of clips from our back catalog so you can go back and check out some of these amazing interviews. It's a bit of a best of show episode for you today. Kira Hug:  But before we jump into all those episodes, this episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank, which is our mastermind. And we have a retreat coming up pretty soon actually, in June. Early June, we have a virtual retreat with all of our Think Tank members. It's one of my favorite parts of this mastermind and being a part of the Think Tank. It's also my favorite part of being in other masterminds that Rob and I are part of. The retreats are where, it's really cheesy, but that is where the magic happens. Because there's collaboration, you're talking about ideas, and you bring in brilliant people who can teach you something new that you can implement right away in your business. It's where, Rob, you and I have really implemented a good amount from the last retreat that you and I attended, so we know it can make a difference, and we know it makes a difference for the copywriters in the Think Tank. So if you have any interest in being a part of a mastermind and being a part of a retreat, I would not wait to jump in. Definitely reach out to us and you can learn more about the Think Tank at copywriterthinktank.com. And I will also mention that we have an in-person retreat because we like to do both in-person retreats and virtual retreats, a combination of the two. And our in-person retreat is coming up in September, will be in London, which we might talk about more in this episode. So join us. It's a lot of fun. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. It's funny because you're talking about that, and we might have mentioned this once before on the podcast, but one of the things that I've found with retreats is the first one, maybe even the first two or three, you're kind of still new to the group, and so you don't have those same relationships. But in the masterminds that you and I have been a part of, years two and three, it's almost like somebody dials up the heat on all of those relationships, and suddenly people are sharing more deeply things that they've been doing. Those friendships just become deeper. And so having more time in a mastermind tends to even make that more valuable. But there's no time like the present to get started if you're not already in the Think Tank. Kira Hug:  Yeah. And I will add that Rob and I have been a part of multiple mastermind groups since the two of us met in 2015. And so because we've attended many, many mastermind retreats, we've been able to take what we liked, take what worked, leave the rest, and really come up with an experience that I think works really well for people. So that's a benefit too. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. So let's kick off this episode just with a couple of updates, things that are going on, Kira. You've been working on this challenge that, if you're listening to the podcast on the day that it drops, it actually starts tomorrow. Tell us a little bit about that. Kira Hug:  Yeah, I am so excited about this challenge. It's a free five-day challenge. It's all about figuring out how to use AI, specifically ChatGPT, in our writing processes so that we can create more space for creativity. We can feel more in control of our writing and our businesses. We can maybe feel excited about it, and create more play in the writing process. And so we're going to do it together because there's so many people talking about AI right now. It's everywhere. Of course, we've been talking a lot about it too. And we thought, why not figure it out together as a group in a community rather than forcing all of us to figure it out alone. So this is a free challenge. You're all invited to participate. We're just going to kind of baby-step our way into using ChatGPT in different ways, a variety of different ways. So by the end of the challenge, you'll have one or two really great ideas that you can implement in your own client work or for your own business that will help you provide more value for your clients and may help you do more strategic thinking about your own business. And that starts April 26th, so it's not too late to jump in. You can find out more at thecopywriterclub.com/aichallenge. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. The thing that I like about this challenge is that it's not only are you working through with a lot of other very friendly copywriters in a group together to share, but we're trying to demystify all of the stuff that's being said about it. There are so many people talking about prompts and inputs and all. We want to take a step back and just make it easy. So if you've been all intimidated by AI tools, ChatGPT, this is definitely a good way to just put your foot in a way that's going to be very easy to engage with. You'll learn and you don't have to worry about blowing up your business or making sure that you're using the right words to talk about it, any of that stuff. It's really to make it simple. And if you feel like you're beyond that, yeah, okay, you've been playing around a little bit with ChatGPT, and you want to maybe go a lot deeper. We do have the AI for copywriters, content writers, creatives, course/adventure that we released a few weeks ago. More than 100 copywriters have joined that. And it just goes a little bit more deeply into it. So if you're brand new or you want to play around with a group of people doing it, absolutely join that challenge. If you feel like that's maybe too basic, then we also have a course for AI for copywriters, and you can find information about that at thecopywriterclub.com/ai4c. Kira Hug:  Yeah, and the cool thing is we already have the challenge group. We have a pop-up Facebook group. It's already happening. People are in there. We're already talking about concerns we have. We're talking about different ways people are using the tools. So Rob's right, this is for people who are relatively new to these tools, but we're also all relatively new to using these tools. So even if you know a couple of things, you can share what you know with this community. And then I guarantee you'll learn something from other people in the room because it's a big room of people. And the cool thing is that we're all in this particular community for this short period of time to talk about one thing. And so it's a really focused group that you won't necessarily be able to find elsewhere, especially for free. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, absolutely. And then since we're talking about AI, we should probably just mention really quickly the podcast or the videocast, because it's also on YouTube, and you and Brandon have been doing a ton of work on that. But yeah, let's mention that too. Kira Hug:  Yeah, let's not even talk about it quickly. Let's just slow down and talk about it because it's so fun.

Dave Harland is our guest on the 339th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. After starting a career as a soccer (or should we say football) reporter in Manchester, Dave shifted to the world of copywriting where he’s known for coming up with big ideas and a method to execute them. In this episode, you’ll find out exactly how he makes it happen. You’ll also learn: How Dave improved his copy skills with limited technology capabilities. Why he branded himself using “word” rather than “copy.” How he organized his portfolio when he first started his business. A typical day in the life of Dave and how he balances client work with his own business goals. Why writers need time to simmer in their thoughts and why they shouldn’t rush the critical thinking process. How to get bigger brands to notice you. The 3 question test Dave uses when coming up with a big idea. How many projects are too many projects? His method for attracting clients and building his brand using LinkedIn. How to find your voice, break the rules, and connect with your audience. Dave’s path to becoming the “copywriting comedian.” Why you need to create a connection in anything you write. How he uses AI as a firestarter and as a means to eliminate the most common ideas. Why he believes ChatGPT won’t replace dedicated, skilled copywriters. Tune into the episode by hitting play or reading the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Join the AI Challenge  The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Dave's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  There's a saying among copywriters, especially online conversion copywriters that goes back to Eugene Schwartz. He put it like this: sales copy is not written, copy is assembled. And of course that's true. The messages that customers relate to best are assembled from interviews, surveys, and other research. But in subscribing to this idea, a lot of copywriters have inadvertently lost the connection to creativity and copy. After all, what's the point of being creative if the words are in the survey responses? Our guest for The Copywriter Club podcast today takes a more creative approach than many copywriters we know. Dave Harland, also known as the word man, walked us through his 10-step process for coming up with big, compelling ideas. And he shared three questions that he asks every time he comes up with a good headline or a good idea, to make sure that it is good. He also talked in-depth about his unconventional approach to posting on LinkedIn, one that has attracted a lot of great clients for his business. If you want to be more creative in your approach to copywriting, this episode is for you. Kira Hug:  But before we get to the interview, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Think tank. That is our mastermind for copywriters, content writers and other marketers who want to figure out the next thing in their businesses. That could be anything from creating a new revenue stream or a couple new revenue streams to launching a new product or a subscription service or a membership or podcast book. You name it. Our members are doing incredible things and we actually have a retreat coming up in early June. It's a virtual retreat and in-person retreat in London in September. And so we are really excited to add a couple of new members to the Think Tank before the retreat in June. And if you think that could be you, visit copywriterthinktank.com to apply. Let's kick off our episode with Dave. Dave Harland:  Probably like most people fell into it completely by accident. My, no, my background is journalism, so I did a journalism degree. I mean, before that, I loved writing as a kid, as I presume most copywriters. Had a love of words growing up. Got into Scrabble when I was six with my dad and just never looked back, really. Started writing poems and stories and loved English at school. So yeah, that led me down a journalism path. So I did work experience at the local paper when I was at school for a couple of weeks and just loved the buzz of that. And then yeah, went to university to do a journalism degree. So I was a three-year undergrad degree in journalism, which really opened my eyes to all the different kinds of types and styles that were out there. I just thought when I went there, I was just writing about news. Didn't for one moment think I'd be learning how to package up a radio news article, or we did a little bit of TV as well. I haven't got a face for TV at all. So we tried that. And then watching it back, I just looked all kind of nervous and my tongue was hanging out. It was like "TV isn't for me." And at the time they just introduced an online route. So it was online journalism. In your third year, you get to spec, specialize in TV, newspapers, radio, or this new route online. And in a class of a hundred, there were only two of us that went online. I mean, I'm talking 2002, 2003. So, Google was only in its infancy. There was no social media at all really. Maybe MySpace was just starting, but there was nothing like that. And I thought, "That's where the world's headed. Let's do this." So I learned a little bit of Photoshop, learned about Dreamweaver and basic HTML and some of them things that I learned back then I still use today. Maybe not in the copywriting side of things, but certainly on my website, or when creating little memes and things. So that was the journalism side of things. But then I only really did four months of journalism. I worked as a football reporter, or, sorry, soccer reporter just for a website based in Manchester, which isn't far from where I live. But I was only there for three or four months. My face didn't really fit. So I was scrappy looking for a new job, and my old university came calling and said, "You fancy being the editor of our journalism department website?" So I went back there and I still thought that was like, "Oh, it's great journalism. I'm interviewing students." It was promoting the university in all the courses, really. I was a secret copywriter, but I didn't know it. So then, yeah, I was there for a couple of years and then got a job as an actual copywriter for a Christmas hamper company, which is a bit of a mad one. But yeah, it was around the corner from where I lived, and at the time I was kind of... I'd just met a girl, moved back home rather than being at the university. So it was just a nice little fit. Again, it was a copywriting role, but it did it. The job title was content and communications coordinator. I was like the editor of their customer magazine. So again, I still wasn't a 100%, I'd never really heard the word copywriter before until about two years in when they asked me to start doing, they're that direct mail letters and some kind of product descriptions for their catalog, which is when they official say, "Oh, so I'm a copywriter now, let's Google that and find out all I can." So that led me to where I am. So that was about 17 years ago I joined that company. So I've been doing it ever since then. So yeah, I was there for 10 years and then got a bit bored. I will probably outstay my welcome by about five years. And then a friend of mine had just moved to an agency in Dubai, and started asking me if I wanted to do some projects for him. That was about two years before I left. And then after those two years, I was earning more on the side than I was in my day job, and it made sense to go it alone and be a full-time freelance copywriter. So that's what I've been doing ever since. So over the past seven years, yeah, pure generalist, everything from email campaigns and tone of voice projects to banner ads and conceptual stuff. I tend to leave the longer form blog posts and case studies and the more content market and stuff for the sector specialist. So I tend to focus more on the big idea, more leaning towards stuff with humor and personality of late. So that's me, in a nutshell. Rob Marsh:  So as you talk about that, Dave, obviously you had the journalism training. Did you ever have any specific copywriting training or was everything learned on the job? And I guess, what would you say are the three or four big things that you had to learn in order to become really good at what you do, and this is me saying you're really good at what you do. Dave Harland:  Oh, nice one, because I find it hard to take compliments sometimes. No, when you're just kind of working on it and people say, oh, you really good, I'm just like, "Oh, whatever. It just fell into this." I think it's probably because I haven't got that kind of formal training. So training-wise, when I was about three years into that job at the Christmas hamper company, they said, "Why don't you do courses someday, just to learn some really intense skills?" So I did a few one-day courses. There's a place called the IDM in London Institute of Data and Marketing. So they do some really good, just, I think it was just one or two-day courses, one on how to write more powerful direct mail letters. Another one, how to write a really impactful sales email. So I did about three or four of those, and they really gave me the foundation in most of the fundamental skills that I use today. So put the reader first, and the importance of benefits over features and the staples of which form the basis of most of the stuff I still write today, and probably what most copywriters out there write. So by doing these courses, it gave me the confidence to see myself as a copywriter, and not so much a journalist anymore. So yeah, aside from that, nothing else. It was just learning as I went. Did loads of testing at the company where we were at.