The Copywriter Club Podcast

Erica Salm Rench is our guest on the 359th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Erica is the COO of Rasa.io, an AI tool used to personalize and streamline email newsletters. She shares insights about the world of AI and how although there’s no slowing it down, how copywriters can use AI to optimize their systems and processes in their own businesses and use it as a competitive edge in a crowded marketplace. Here’s what you’ll find: What exactly is Rasa.io, and how does it work? Why email is still powerful and why you need an email newsletter.  The importance of client feedback and how AI can streamline your process. How to incorporate the use of AI in your business model and packages.  The similarities between a sales conversation and offering value.  Do your discovery questions need a facelift? How to intertwine human relationships with the use of AI.  Need a reason to create a bank of content? Here’s why.  How to repurpose your content and save yourself time and energy.  How to dig beneath the surface and get customer feedback that matters. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Accelerator waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Rasa.io The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript:

On the 358th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we’re covering all things law and your business. Taylor Tieman, Esq. joins the show to give copywriters actionable steps they can take to legally protect their business. Legal is an unavoidable part of running a business, and Taylor breaks it down in an approachable way. Tune into the episode to find out: The pitfalls of not having a proper contract in place. The difference between owning your copy and the right to use it in your portfolio.  Can you have 50/50 ownership of the copy you write? What is an intellectual property clause and how can you add it to your contract? What if you need to end the project abruptly?  The specific clauses copywriters need to have in their contracts.  When do you actually need to enforce the contract? LLC vs. S-Corp: Which one is right for your business? The 3 most important legal aspects to protect your business.  Why you may need a trademark and the different levels of filing.  AI and legal… A lawyer’s input.  How to better protect your clients’ private info from AI.  What about privacy policies and terms and conditions?  How to be GDPR compliant. Is there a problem with using “re:” as a subject line Hit play to listen to the episode below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Accelerator waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Taylor's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript:

Angela Morris is our guest on the 357th episode of The Copywriter Club. Angela is a makeup artist turned copywriter and digital marketing strategist who teaches her clients how to quiet quit Instagram, so they can save time and energy in their businesses. This episode breaks down her strategy and framework for how to take a step back from social media while continuing to grow your impact and your business. Here’s what you’ll find in the episode: How to solve problems your audience actually is struggling with. Where she found her first set of social media clients in the midst of losing all her makeup industry gigs.  Why you should channel what makes you angry.  Is palatable still sellable?  How she went from writing captions to strategizing business messaging.  The importance of having good perception as a copywriter.  What is Quiet Quitting Instagram? Angela’s strategy for Quiet Quitting Instagram and how it’s affected her business.  Is Kira quitting Instagram? The process of creating a successful package and selling it.  What happens once your static feed is radio silent? What does the data say? Could Quiet Quitting Instagram be for you? Binge the episode by hitting the play button below.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Accelerator waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Angela's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript:

Copywriter Katelyn Collins, with a theater background, shares insights on cutting 'darlings' in copy, the power of throughlines, balancing dreaming and generating in business, recovering from burnout, AI's impact on copywriting, and her four P's framework for landing more clients.

On the 355th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob take the mic to talk about the 5 critical moves copywriters need to make to build, grow, and scale a successful copywriting business. If this year has got you questioning your business, this episode is for you. Here’s what you’ll learn: How to “flip the switch” in your business.  What successful copywriters know that struggling copywriters don’t.  Why you need to build an operating system to support your goals.  How to define your X-factor… The very thing that makes you stand out.  The steps to create your ideal client and discover the problems they want to be solved. How to find the right pricing model for your business.  Why having a signature service will make you more revenue. The importance of processes and systems and how to begin to build them.  Why systems are the solution to imposter complex.  How to improve your sales skills without feeling sleazy.  The 4 mistakes copywriters are making in growing their business.  How to actually find higher-paying clients who recognize your value. Why you need to implement these 4 levers to make your business run more efficiently.  How to radically change your business in just 5 months.  Tune into the episode by hitting play or checking out the transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Accelerator waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript:

Brenna McGowan is our guest on the 354th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Brenna is a social media manager turned email copywriter and launch strategist who helps her clients implement prelaunch methods that generate greater awareness and sales. If you want to create natural momemtum before your launch, you'll want to listen to Brenna's behind-the-curtain insights. Here's what you'll find: Why Brenna transitioned from social media marketing to email marketing. How she repositioned her business in a new industry and grew an online presence.  The process she created for validating her offer and expertise.  Why she niched into prelaunch and how it can benefit the overall launch of a product or service. What’s so important about your “why?” What are you supposed to do after you pivot your business? Being good at things vs being passionate about them.  How Brenna uses the LEAP process to help entrepreneurs find their sweet spot to achieve their goals.  What’s working with prelaunch now? Why you’re really feeling overwhelmed by prelaunch and how to stop it.  How to build your email list before you launch.  Her inspiration behind creating a different style event aka The Voxer Summit. A behind-the-scenes look at her client launch based on her CASE method.  How she packages her offers and positions herself as a strategist.  What if you only have 3 hours before your next launch? The easier way to create natural momentum for your business. Tune into the episode to learn all of this and more. The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: The Accelerator waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Brenna's website  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  If you've dreamed of building a copywriting business that earns five figures a month, there are certain types of projects that make reaching that goal a lot easier. And at the top of that list of projects is product launches, that is, helping clients sell a course or a membership or another kind of product, with a combination of strategy emails, landing pages, ads and sales pages. A single launch project can pay a good copywriter a lot of money. Hi, I'm Rob Marsh. Kira Hug:  And I'm Kira Hug. And we're the founders and hosts of the Copywriter Club podcast. Our guest for today's episode is copywriter and launch strategist Brenna McGowan. In just the past couple of years, Brenna has become a leader in the launch world, helping clients sell more and teaching copywriters and other marketers how to put together more successful launches. Rob Marsh:  But there's a lot more to a successful launch than a bunch of emails and sales pages. Brenna shared with us how she thinks about the days or weeks immediately before a launch and what you should be doing to prime your audience so that they're ready to buy when you launch. She also shared her thoughts about pivoting your business, validating offers and ethical marketing practices. We think you're going to like what you had to share. Kira Hug:  But first, and speaking of priming your audience so they're ready to buy when you launch a product, which is what we are trying to do, this is part of our pre-launch strategy, hopefully we nail it, the Copywriter Accelerator is coming up soon. The doors will be open soon. This is our signature business-building program for copywriters and content writers where we help you put together the most critical eight components of your business, the eight parts that you need in order to build a profitable business. And we've had success story after success story with some of the most internet-famous copywriters that you may have heard of, and it's coming up soon. So if you want to learn about this program and what it consists of and how it could help you in your business, you can learn more at thecopywriteraccelerator.com. Okay, let's kick off our episode with Brenna. Brenna McGowan:  I originally started off as a social media manager back in 2018, and I didn't even realize that's what I was doing. I was doing some odd jobs on the side. I was a stay-at-home mom, and I had a friend who was starting a new business and she was an esthetician, and I was like, "Hey, why don't I do your Instagram?" Which by the way, I've never done Instagram before. Why don't I do your Instagram and email marketing and you give me eyelashes? So I always joke, I started my business out of vanity. I wanted fake eyelashes. And so I started doing her social media and email marketing, and what I started to notice was that we were getting attention, and people were asking her who was doing this? And I was like, gosh, this could be a business. And so I created a business doing social media. I agonized over the logo and the website, and I announced myself on social media, on Facebook, to friends and family and got clients immediately. And it was like, it just happened really quickly. But from there, what I realized, especially because... I think what was good about that is that I just did it and I didn't overthink it, which for me, I'm a serial overthinker, but I didn't think about it too much. But I realized very quickly I hated social media management and didn't enjoy it. But what I did enjoy was the writing. And coincidentally, around this time, I had found Laura Belgray, and kind of figured out what copywriting was, and I listened to a Copywriter Club podcast. It was one with Chris Orzechowski talking about email copywriting, and I was like, I think this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to become an email copywriter. And so I transitioned at the beginning of 2019 into copywriting and haven't looked back since. Rob Marsh:  So let's talk about that transition, because doing social media and then switching to something else, there's a lot that happens there. Did you stick with the same clients and just say, "Hey, now I'm doing email", or how did you reposition your business and find new clients for this new offer? Brenna McGowan:  Yeah, it's a great question. So my clients that I got initially were not really online clients. I found them online, but they were people from my neighborhood. One was a high school friend who was now doing mortgages, things like that. My stepmom and dad own a wedding magazine, so I was helping local business owners. So I was kind of, in a way... it's funny, I don't think anyone's ever asked me this question before. I was parallel doing things. I was doing things to these local clients since I got clients immediately, but I was also creating an online presence for myself. So that is where I was able to transition slowly and say, "Hey, I know I've been doing social media and talking about social media, but really what I'm going to go and talk about now is writing." And so I slowly transitioned over. It made sense to a degree, because so much of social media, if you look down, everything is copy. So all of the copy that I was doing for my social media captions, which it was just coincidentally that it was working so well. But I was able to maneuver myself over, and I kind of find Instagram captions and even a little bit of Facebook, it's similar to email if you think about it. So I think it became a natural progression. Kira Hug:  So when you talk about creating your online presence, what specifically were you doing? What was working for you? Brenna McGowan:  Yeah, at the time, I'm thinking back, I was completely on Instagram, and I was creating content over there, so I was building a list of followers. What I wasn't doing was creating an email list, which is obviously the most important. So if I think back, I didn't actually start my email list probably until the end of 2019, even though I was calling myself an email copywriter. So I think there was a part of me that was like, "Hey, I'm doing this email copy thing and I'm helping people create email lists and write for emails, but I'm not doing the thing for myself." So at that point, I remember there was a line in the sand where I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to start my email list." Well, I had a tiny email list, but I'm going to actually do this email thing, write my list, add to my list once a week, and test things out for myself. And I think that's been the beauty of going along this journey is that I test things for myself before actually putting it out there and seeing what works and doesn't work. Rob Marsh:  Okay. So you became an email copywriter, but that's not really all that you do now. So how has your business evolved since that switch to email copywriting? Brenna McGowan:  And I love this discussion that we're having, as we're talking about pivoting and niching, and I had some little pivots along the way, and in a way I started to think about I'm almost like a serial pivoter because I have done all the things. I had a content membership for a little while. I have done workshops and offers, but what really happened is I decided... I was working on doing not just email copy. Funny enough, I think this is interesting, is that even though I called myself an email copywriter, I was getting inquiries for everything. And I probably have written more websites than anything in this career, but I started to notice when I was working with people on their launches, that I had a couple of launches that didn't go quite as well as we had hoped. And it was like, well, why? The numbers are there. There's something missing when it was the email list. And around that time, I had listened to an interview series with my friend Marissa Corcoran on the Copy Chat, and they were talking about pre-launch, and I was like, you know what? I feel like what's missing from these launches,

On the 353rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Lindsay Hyatt joins the show to talk about how to make strategic pivots in your business and step into the spotlight with confidence. Lindsay is a copywriter and empowerment coach who helps her clients build a stand-out personal brand. Before she built her business, she worked in radio ads and healthcare marketing, and she was a 5th-grade teacher before jumping ship to start her own blog, so she knows a thing or two about making big pivots. Listen in to find out: How do you know when it’s time to pivot in your business… or life? The steps Lindsay took to meet her salary within a couple of months.  How to create a writing habit and build your portfolio.  The benefits of setting aside your pride and putting yourself out there.  What’s the key to building a personal brand? Her Instagram philosophy for growth and building an audience.  What to do when it’s hard to show up on social media.  General content pillars vs rigid content calendar – which one is for you? How to stand out on LinkedIn.  Why she chose to niche horizontally vs vertically. The reality of creating a new arm in your business.  How to grow your visibility with intention and mindset.  Want to gain clarity and perspective? Follow this step. Why she started a podcast and how it’s shifting her business.  What happens when we challenge our beliefs? The benefits of creating an alter ego and stepping into the spotlight.  How Rob’s email was the tough love she (and we) all needed to hear.  Hit that play button or check out the transcript below.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: The Accelerator waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Lindsay's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  There's a saying that gets thrown around occasionally in the business world that goes something like this: We overestimate what we can get done in a day and we underestimate what we can accomplish in a year, which is probably why we often feel like we don't get much done as we work through our days. But when we look back to where we were last year or the year before, we are amazed at some of the changes that we've seen and experienced. Hi, this is Rob Marsh. Kira Hug:  And I'm Kira Hug. Rob Marsh:  And we are the founders and hosts of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Our guest for today's episode is copywriter and copy coach Lindsay Hyatt. Over the past two years, Lindsay has experienced some big changes in her business. As we chatted with her, she shared a few of the things that she's done that made all of the difference: activities like showing up regularly on social media, creating personal connections with their network, and exploring new opportunities for serving her clients. They're small things, but they produce really big results. In short, she puts in the reps, so stick around to hear what she has to share about her business. Kira Hug: But first, this episode is sponsored by The Copywriter Accelerator, which is our signature business building program that we are running in the fall for four months in the fall. And Lindsay actually is an alumni member of that program, so she'll speak to a little bit of that program and the benefits, and you can hear from this conversation how it's helped her in her business. If you have any interest in learning more about that program and the eight-part framework we work through in that program that will help build the foundation of your business, you can learn more at our wait list page, which is at thecopywriterclub.com/accelerator-waitlist. We'll link to it in the show notes so you can jump over there and get your name on the list if you want to explore that program with us this fall. Let's kick off our episode with Lindsay Hyatt. Lindsay Hyatt:  Well, I have a winding road, but it started with copywriting, which I feel like not many copywriters say. So I started as a copywriter in radio, which was my first job out of college, and I wrote radio commercials for four different stations, all completely different genres. So that was the beginning of learning about brand voice for me. And I love that. And then from there I kind of got deeper into marketing as a whole and learning about creating campaigns and launching campaigns for different industries. So at the time I was actually in healthcare marketing, which is a whole different game. I really love the creativity part of it, but what I didn't love right off the bat was feeling like I didn't know what I was doing, and I didn't really have a lot of guidance in the first few jobs that I had. So I actually had, unfortunately, some bad work environment experiences that really molded the early parts of my career in marketing and it made me run in the other direction. So I actually took a break from marketing to pursue the other nagging interests that I had, which was education. And I had moved to Michigan with my now husband who's from there. And while I was there, I went to the University of Michigan to get my graduate degree in education, and I became a fifth grade teacher, which seems completely out of the blue, but it was kind of one of those things that I thought I could go in this direction or I could go in that direction, and I went in the direction of the creative route. So this kind of gave me a chance to explore what does life look like as an educator. I loved working with the kids. Fifth graders are super weird, but really cute still. It's a really good combination. But after a few years of doing that, the market for finding a great job in education and at the elementary level was difficult. So I had already started to think like, "Oh, I don't know if I want to continue on this route, clawing my way into a great public school classroom. Maybe in five to seven years time I was already feeling that draw to get back to my creative roots." So actually, while I was teaching in Michigan, I launched a blog that kind of became my touchstone to keeping that creative flow alive. I called it The Daily Sampler, and I called it that because I wanted to set the stage for myself to write every single day, which was quite the task. But for the first year, I wrote in that blog every day and I wrote about nothing important. I didn't write about politics or education. I wrote about the Oscars. I wrote about movies and music and cocktails, just anything that was fun for me. And it actually had a pretty good following. It was a way for me to keep in touch with my friends and family and network back in Buffalo, New York where I'm from. And it also opened up doors for me to meet people all over the world. Fun, quick story: I was actually in Italy for a small amount of time with my husband who was doing archeology. That's a long story. But people came up to me at a cafe and asked if I was the writer of The Daily Sampler because I was writing about my time in Italy. So it was a really fun time and it allowed me to improve my writing skills and keep that creative flow going even when I was working hard with kids and doing the educator thing. So eventually I moved back home to Buffalo and I jumped back into marketing. I had a few more jobs where I felt like there was another work environment situation that was really tough, and it really started to have me question everything that I thought about working in corporate America. Like, is this all there is? Is it just hopefully you do work you're really passionate about and hopefully the people are nice and hopefully you are look forward to work, and if not, you just kind of get through it? And I just thought, this can't be it. I started to think about what if I had my own business, but I just never saw how. I just never saw that it could be a reality. I don't have entrepreneurs in my life that I could pull from experience. So I've kept going and I thought maybe someday. Maybe when I've paid my dues and maybe when I'm in my mid-career and things feel more stable, I will explore that. So fast-forward to the pandemic, I was about to have my second daughter and I told my husband, "I don't want to go back to this job that I'm at. It just does nothing for me. It's not meeting any kind of creative expectations that I had, and I just want to see if this could be a possibility. Or I'll have to get another job when I returned from maternity leave." I had my daughter, and two weeks later, the world shut down. And because of that, it shifted everything for us. My husband lost his job during that time, I was on maternity leave, so we were freaking out a little bit. But that is when I started to freelance again on the side of my nine-to-five once I returned from maternity leave and I started writing. And I was immediately transported back to why I love to do it, how good it felt, how good it felt just to be creative. At the time I was writing for clients in HVAC systems. It wasn't really juicy, interesting stuff. I was just thrilled to be writing again and to work directly with a client and feel like I was able to help them directly. So after some time I realized I might be able to match my salary if I can focus on it. I had two retainer clients at the time. If I could just bring on one more, if I had the time to do that, because I was working nights and weekends on the side of my nine-to-five, I think I could do this. We worked it out, convinced the husband, he's been very supportive ever since, and I made the leap in 2021. I launched my business Lindsay Hyatt Co. full-time. And within a month or two, I matched my salary and I thought, "Why didn't I do this earlier?" I mean, it was a winding road to get there,

Chris Mason is our guest on the 352nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Chris is a direct-response marketer who wrote a companion book to Breakthrough Advertising by Eugene Schwartz called, Breakthrough Advertising Mastery. Chris breaks down his process for writing this book and he gives actionable tips for copywriters can use today. Tune into the episode to find out: What similarities are there between songwriting and direct response marketing? Why you need to build your “sitting down” muscle.  How Chris landed Brian Kurtz as a client and how their partnership grew.  What is the 40/40/20 mix?  The best process for context switching and juggling multiple projects at a time.  How to get better at decision-making and what that means for your business.  Determining your audience’s mass desire and understanding market sophistication.  When do you incorporate a unique mechanism? Two techniques to better understand your audience and their needs.  How to build the stream of acceptance and shift current beliefs.  How to break things down into actionable steps for your audience. What’s a profit partner and what’s involved? Tune into the episode by hitting play or checking out the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Chris's website  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  If you've been a copywriter for more than a few days, you've almost certainly been told that the preeminent copywriting book that you absolutely have to read, maybe even read over and over, is Eugene Schwartz's Breakthrough Advertising. A few years ago when the book was out of print, it wasn't uncommon to see a single copy of Breakthrough Advertising selling on eBay for close to a thousand dollars. And it is a good book, even a must read for serious copywriters, but it's not the easiest book to read or understand. Hi, I'm Rob Marsh and my co-host of The Copywriter Club podcast is Kira Hug, and our guest for this episode is copywriter and marketing strategist Chris Mason. Chris spent much of the last two years writing a companion volume for Eugene Schwartz's book called Breakthrough Advertising Mastery. It makes learning the concepts that Eugene Schwartz taught in that book a lot easier to learn. And Chris tell us which concepts of the book he thinks are most important during this interview. He also shared his thoughts about songwriting, juggling multiple large projects at the same time, and what it takes to help shift a prospect's belief so they can buy. Kira Hug:  But first, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Accelerator, which is actually coming up pretty soon. We have a nice little wait list you can jump on that we'll link to if you have any interest in this program. And hopefully you do have some interest in this program. Rob, why should someone listening be interested in this program? Rob Marsh:  So if you are a new copywriter, a newish copywriter, or a copywriter that is trying to make a shift in your business in some way, we've actually designed this to help you go through all of those steps so that you can lay the foundation for successful business, including figuring out what niche you serve, who your exact ideal client is, what kinds of services and products they will actually buy, how you position yourself so that they want to hear from you, how you get yourself out into the world, how you price things. All of that is wrapped up into this one, I don't want to call it a course because it's not really a course, but it's a cohort based group program you go through with several other copywriters, all who are working through the same assignments. You start to create your own network and there's just a ton of bonuses stacked on top of it as well. There's so many reasons to join. I'm actually surprised everybody hasn't joined yet. It's only a little bit tongue in cheek. Kira Hug:  Yeah, we clearly drank our own Kool-Aid. Yeah, and if you think about some of my favorite copywriters working today, some of the ones who I feel like are the smartest, the most creative out there, many of them have been through The Copywriter Accelerator program. Whether or not you realize that they've been through the entire program and really focused on their positioning and everything Rob just mentioned, niching, packaging, which has helped them get to that level where they are so successful because they've been so intentional about it. They didn't just happen to fall into their business. They were intentional about all those micro-decisions and thinking through what they're building along the way. And you can do that too. If you want to be intentional about what you're building, you can look into The Copywriter Accelerator and jump on the wait list. Rob Marsh:  You can find that at thecopywriteraccelerator.com. Kira Hug:  Okay, let's kick off our episode with Chris Mason. Chris Mason:  I got into marketing because I came to Nashville where I still live in right after college, like 2003 or so. And I wrote songs and I performed, so I traveled around the Southeast and Midwest and I quickly learned that, well, if you don't learn how to promote shows and handle the business side, nobody comes to them. And I started building a email list back in the early days, people who had come to the shows and I was doing marketing, but I didn't really know that's what it was. The more I studied about how do I make this thing work, what I was doing with music, I came into contact with, there was a book that was written by one of the head marketing creative guys at Nike that I remember was really powerful for me. I'm blanking the name of it, but it really opened my eyes to this world of creativity and how commerce actually happens. And that was how I got interested in marketing. And then I grew tired of being a traveling musician. I still write songs. I love that process, but I wasn't too keen on being a performer. And so I had a mentor, he said, "You ought to think about getting just a regular job," because I was saying to him, "I've been doing this music thing for six years and I feel like I just don't really understand business that well, and I want to be a better business person." And so he said, "Go get a job and learn that skill on somebody else's dime." And so I ended up doing that for eight years. I didn't think I would be in the corporate world for eight years, but it really helped me learn the skills that I needed to then build something on the side and get out and do my own thing again. Rob Marsh:  So starts out songwriting, then working. I got to know as a songwriter, any hits? Anything we might recognize? Is it all for yourself or have you partnered with anybody, record labels, anything like that? Chris Mason:  No, I had a song put on hold once, which was by Diamond Rio, a country artist. But that was the closest. So when the song's put on hold, it's like nobody else can have it. But that was the closest, and I probably could have pursued that a little more. And actually, my mom was just visiting this past weekend. She's like, "You got to get back to pitching more of your songs." So I told her it's been on my mind because I write music. I mean, I'm writing every week just for therapy, if nothing else. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Well, if you hadn't made big, you wouldn't be here with us. So I mean, in some ways we're grateful that you're not playing guitar or something with Diamond Rio. That would be amazing. So before we move on though to the rest of that, what are some of the similarities between songwriting and marketing and the writing that you do? Obviously there's some lessons to pull from one that apply to the other. Talk about that. Chris Mason:  Yeah, that's a great question because I've thought a lot about this actually, because I think one of the reasons that I got really interested in copywriting, which was around 2012, is when I first got introduced to direct response because I didn't know that this style of marketing existed because I was much more familiar with brand and awareness and how many impressions are you getting, not real measurable things. But then I got introduced to direct response. And the thing that I loved about it was I just saw that this is a way that you can tell stories and you can go long as long as you're interesting. And so I really connected endless similarities of finding a good story, starting in the middle of the story, what we would call the hook. It's the same thing when you're writing a song of you've got your chorus. The way that I start with music is I usually start with trying to find the melody of the song first, and it usually evokes this emotion. And so then you've got this emotion of this sounds like a heartache song. And then for me, it's digging of what stories have I come into contact with or read about that I feel like I could capture this emotion with. And then you just start putting words out that don't even go together. There's a great video of John Mayer where he is given an interview and he talks about this process. And that is really what copywriting is like for me too, is when I sit down to write, I know where I'm going. Ultimately, I've got the action I want somebody to take, and I just write an ugly piece of copy and then it's easier to go back and edit it and say, "Ah, I don't want to say it that way," or "That's kind of a good idea and I'll highlight it and I'll come back to it." But it's a series of days. It doesn't happen for me quickly at all Rob Marsh:  That John Mayer video's incredible. We'll try to link to that in the show notes. Kira Hug:  Yeah,

Jess Kelly is our guest on the 351st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. She is a copywriter who helps conscientious brands build authentic and true-to-them businesses through brand and marketing strategies. From shifts in careers and misdiagnoses, Jess’s journey highlights the benefits of personal growth and becoming different and new versions of yourself along the way. Listen to the episode to find out: Why Jess dropped out of journalism.  Experimentation vs expectation – why does it matter?  The permission slip you need to give yourself – like yesterday.  How she fell into copywriting and her career paths to get there.  The 10-minute call that landed her inside of The Copywriter Accelerator.  What’s the secret to building better interview skills?  Why you need to start showing up and how it’s going to pay off.  The diagnoses that helped Jess make sense of her identity and experience.  How to connect with more people in your network.  What kinds of relationships should we really be building?  The best thing about becoming a new version of yourself.  Tune into the episode by hitting play or checking out the transcript below.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Jess's website  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Connecting with others and creating a relationship with the people around you is a critical part of building a sustainable copywriting business. If you're not connecting regularly with people that you might work with someday, you will eventually run out of clients. To talk about how we don't let that happen to you, and speaking of creating connections and relationships, hi, we're Rob Marsh and Kira Hug, the hosts of the Copywriter Club Podcast. And Kira, I'm pretty sure that's the very first time we've ever said our names in the intro. Kira Hug:  Yeah, I'm, Kira Hug. It feels good to finally share that with the world. Why did it take us so long? Rob Marsh:  350 episodes and we've been hiding back there. But now that we've established this relationship, we're thrilled to introduce our guest for this episode, who is copywriter, Jess Kelly. And Jess shared how she discovered copywriting, how neurodiversity impacts how she works and sees the world, and what she does to connect with others in this interview. It's an activity that attracts new clients to her business and an idea that we can all steal or borrow and use in our own businesses. Stick around to hear what Jess shared. Kira Hug:  But first, this episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Accelerator, which is our business building system that we put together for copywriters and content writers like you to figure out how to put the foundation of your business together so that you know how to attract the right clients. You know what to focus on in your business. You have your positioning dialed in, so what makes you different from every other writer out there. Your signature package and even a starter package that you can sell and introduce to the world. You've nailed down your pricing, you know how to show up and where to show up to build your visibility and so much more. And so it's really everything you need to run and grow a copywriting business. And it's all one program, so you get all of it bundled together, and Rob and I walk you through the entire program along with an incredible group of generous writers who will do it alongside you. So we're kicking that off in just a few weeks. And if you have any interest or you've heard about it before and you want to learn more about the Copywriter Accelerator, you can learn more at thecopywriteraccelerator.com and sign up there to get on the waitlist if you want to receive updates when we do officially open the doors to it. Okay, let's kick off our episode with Jess Kelly. Jess, so excited to have you here. And I know I personally can't wait to hear your story. So how did you end up as a copywriter? Jess Kelly:  I stumbled into copywriting when I went to journalism right out of high school and very quickly left. I did not like the way reporting was done, it felt like there was a lot of bias and the way they were training us, it looked like they were basically training us to incorporate bias and skewed sort of news, it didn't feel good. And then I didn't want to be an observer. They told me I had to be an observer, not a participant. It didn't feel good, but I'm a writer, and so they also told me if I wrote novels, I would starve. And so I ended up in food service and fast-forward, I trained as a nurse, but I have a wimpy immune system. So that was a no go. But I learned a lot there about interacting with people and creating that rapport and being able to talk to them about really deep and personal things, but at the same time as making them feel comfortable and at ease sharing those things with me. So interviewing and health teaching were a big part of my training as a nurse, and I get to use those a lot today. And so then mostly food service. And then the pandemic happened and I was managing this cafe and I loved it. I really did. And I adored my boss. She has a home in The Bahamas, so in the winter she would go off to the Bahamas and I would hold down the fort and I really loved it. During the pandemic, this became very intense. She's off in the Bahamas and I'm here handling staff and open, closed, order the food because we're going to be open again. Oh wait, no, we're not, everything's spoiled. And I just realized I was running someone else's business, and as much as I loved her, and I loved the cafe, and I loved the opportunity, the pandemic just really revealed that it was a really unstable place to be. And so I started looking into writing, making money as a writer again. And I was thinking I was going to freelance write for children's magazines because I digest complicated stuff into easy to access. And so I got into a writer's group, Write Your Way to Freedom in 30 Days or something like that. There's little activities to do once a day for 30 days. And we get partway through and we did an interview with a copywriter, Jacob McMillen, and I was like, oh, copywriting. I didn't really realize this was a thing because when I was going into journalism out of high school, marketing was not like, I didn't even consider it because that was very, again, I was a young idealist and that was just, marketing was evil. And so I was listening to this interview where Jacob was talking about copywriting, and he's talking about how the tone, it's having a conversation with the reader. And I was like, oh, because when I'm trying to plan to write articles, you have to edit that out. And my natural tone is very conversational. So I was like, oh, this could be the thing, this might be the best fit. And so I got on his email list and started, and I think I opened two of them. It was in November. I was not that serious about it. And I happened to, in November, open an email from him that was like, "Hey, this is the best deal in copywriting this month. I won't even sell you my course because it's not as valuable as this thing. So here's the link to the reading that we were talking about it, go check this out." And so I watched this replay on YouTube around Black Friday in November 2021, and there was eight or more, eight, 12. There's a bunch of copywriters who had contributed products and courses to this bundle. And I guess I didn't know at the time they were in this affiliate contest. And so it seemed like a really great entry point. Here I was going to get these 16 different products and exposure to 16 different people and companies that were doing this. And Copywriter Club was one of the products, I think it was recordings of one of the IRLs. And so I got into this bundle of stuff. I didn't actually buy it through Jacob's link because I started getting on the email lists of the other copywriters that were there. And we say, what we do is we're like, hey, hit reply. And so I did, and I started to build a relationship with Lorrie Morgan because when I hit reply, she replied back to me and we just really hit it off. So then when I realized that it was an affiliate contest, I sent Jacob a message. I was like, "I'm sorry, I didn't realize I went ahead and bought it through somebody else." Kira Hug:  It's like, you are banished from the list. Jess Kelly:  But I was like, I really do want your program, because his bonus was, you get his program or whatever. And he was like, "No, I get it." Because he didn't reply his initial welcome sequence where I hit reply and said, hey, this is who I am and stuff. And so he thought it was funny and everything, and I did buy his course. And so everything is good. But that's when I realized that building relationships just becomes really natural to me because it's a really authentic thing. And so I started exploring some of those products and stuff, and I was getting Copywriter Club emails because now I'm on the Copywriter Club email list. And I loved, it's very me. And I kept telling myself, I've already spent on this bundle and I have so many things inside this bundle that I still have to explore it. And I'm not yet a professional copywriter. I'm not yet making money like this. But you guys were talking about the Accelerator. And so it was like, that would be such a good thing, but probably maybe a little bit in the future because I didn't have anything really to accelerate. But you guys do this really amazing thing where just before the doors closed, you're like, hey, get on a 10 call with one of us. And so I hopped, I was like, all right,

350 episodes and over 1.5 million downloads later, Rob and Kira sit down to chat about... pitching (and phones?). From setting intentions for a new season to setting your business up for success in Q3, you'll walk away from this episode with ideas and actionable steps you can use right now  in your business. Catch up with Rob and Kira to find out: The sure-fire way to gain clients in Q3.  How Kira’s flip-phone project is going. Creating a theme for a new season.  What summer on this side of the globe means for Rob and Kira. What’s new with TCC this summer? The do’s and don’t’s of pitching and why copywriters need to focus on this instead.  Is your ego getting in the way of new clients? What business activities can help you come out of a slow season? How are copywriters getting paid right now? What’s new on the AI for Creative Entrepreneurs podcast? The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show: The Copywriter Underground Annual Membership --> Get P7 for Free The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  I am Rob Marsh. Kira Hug:  I am Kira Hug, and we are the host of the Copywriter Club podcast. We are the host who did not introduce ourselves for 350 episodes or at least 340 episodes. We did not ever introduce ourselves. Rob Marsh:  We fixed that. We're here. This is just a conversation between you and me, Kira and Rob, and hopefully if you're tuning into this episode, you're interested in some of the updates that we have coming up, but we also want to talk a little bit about what's going on in the economy and the industry and what's working for people right now. We'll get to that in just a minute as well. Kira, let's kick this off. I was talking to our team just the other day. We literally hit 80 degrees for maybe the second time this year a couple days ago, Summer finally started here. Let's just talk about our summer plans. What's going on with you this summer? Kira Hug:  Yeah, I will have some travel in July. I know you and I are both traveling in July and my travel includes actually staying within my state and staying at a couple cabins in Maine, in the woods and just having more of a rustic experience. I know you have a trip. I think the same week I'm gone. I don't even know where you're going. Rob Marsh:  My daughter is playing in Junior Olympics water polo tournament. We are going to turn that travel into a little bit of a beach vacation. We're going to spend a couple days at the beach, maybe check out an amusement park one day. My kids are older. The Disney Land, Disney World type thing doesn't really work for us anymore. Kira Hug:  That's so sad. Rob Marsh:  Rollercoasters are still fun and paying for overpriced amusement park food, we might do that one day, but I think we're going to spend a lot of time sitting with our toes in the sand listening to the waves crash on the beach because we don't get that here a whole lot in Salt Lake. Kira Hug:  Yeah, that'll be nice. It's really sad to think that they've already outgrown Disney like that. I don't know, that crushes me. Rob Marsh:  It happens, but it's good. Different things, different strokes for different times of life. It'll just be me, my daughters and my wife and I will be sitting on the beach reading, splashing around a little bit and having a good time. Kira Hug:  What is your vacation style. When you're on vacation, some people are really well planned and they have every moment planned, lots of activities. Some people just kick back and just want to chill on the sofa with the book. Rob Marsh:  I'm the chill. I do not love to go into it with tons of plans. I'm okay with a, "Hey, on Tuesday we're going to go to the beach. On Wednesday, we're going to go see the Angels play." Or whatever. I hate having everything scheduled out and I do not feel like every moment of a vacation needs to be doing something. The point of my vacations is to rest. I like to just lounge around and do nothing. How about you? Kira Hug:  So many questions about how to vacation properly because I think vacationing is hard. It takes me a while to get into vacation mode and by that time it's over. So do you just flip a switch and you're like, "Cool. I'm on vacation mode. Everything feels good." I really struggle with it. Rob Marsh:  I don't know. I'll still write emails while I'm on vacation. I have a really hard time stepping away from that stuff. Kira Hug:  You enjoy that. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, I enjoy it. It's okay. What's bad is when you're on vacation with another couple or another family or another person whose vacation style is not your style. We have some really good friends that we've spent several vacations with and they are active, they want to be doing things all the time, and I'm just like, "Wow, let's just sit down and-" Kira Hug:  That sounds awful. Rob Marsh:  "... Grab some food and sit down and just talk and hang out." Matching up with people. Well, and I'm sure there are partnerships, marriages where the spouses have different styles, so there's spouse there. My wife and I both relaxing. You have a hard time relaxing, but you are a relaxing vacationer. Kira Hug:  When I relax, it takes me a couple days. Once I get into that mode, it's hard to ramp up and get back into the work mode. My vacation is not truly a vacation at this stage in my life, really. It's family time. I would say it's better described as family time, which is important. Having time off from work to be with my family is very important, but it doesn't feel like vacation. It still is work, it's just a different type of work and I'm okay with that. I'm not complaining. It's just the reality of going into it. When I go into it, I'm like, oh, I'm going to be able to read five books this week, then I'm disappointed because the reality is I can't do that with a toddler and two kids. But if I go into it and I'm just like, "I just want to hang out with them and have fun." Then it's going to be a more positive experience. There's a lot of reframing I have to do around vacation so that it just feels really good. That's not to say there aren't moments where I can go on a run and have some alone time, which is really important to me. I think it's just thinking through what the purpose is, what do you need to get out of it and making sure you're realistic. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, I agree. I agree. Once you get back from vacation or before you leave, what's going on this summer? Kira Hug:  Still working on the flip phone project. That's still going strong. I don't know what strong means with that, but there's still a flip phone. I'm still living life. Actually, right now I'm living life phone free because I've already told you, but Homer broke my phone. I went from having my flip phone, which I love to having no phone, and I'm also kind of loving that. I've been reluctant to get my new phone. That's been really nice and I'm going to continue with that project through the summer. Rob Marsh:  We need to talk about the negative side of that too, because you got lost because you didn't have GPS. Kira Hug:  I got lost because I took one wrong turn, which you could say GPS would've helped me prevent that, and that's legit but also I've had GPS and still taking wrong turns. It's just missing it in that moment for one second. So you could argue that I would never miss a single turn if I had GPS, and that is fair. I would say what I learned from that was I should have left 20 minutes earlier. That's it. There are downsides. There are definitely downsides. Communication is trickier with a lot of people in my life. I know it's trickier with our team because they can't always reach me, but there are a lot of upsides for our mental health, happiness, presence. I feel lighter, I feel better. I'm just trying to figure out the whole thing. Anyway, that will continue and I'll hopefully have more time to write about it. I think the whole purpose of it is around learning and reflection, and I haven't been able to write about it as much. That's a goal for the summer. What else is important to you when you think about this summer? Do you have specific goals or anything that's really important to focus on? Rob Marsh:  I'm not getting rid of my phone, so that's not a project for me. Kira Hug:  You'll never do that. Rob Marsh:  I will say this, I absolutely love summer, it's my favorite season, but I love summer mornings. We've talked many times about how I get up early to go to run or to lift or whatever, but having the sun up early means that when I get back from exercising, which it's light outside, when I'm doing that at five o'clock in the morning here, I've got time to sit on my porch and read. Before anybody else is up around my house, I don't have little kids, so they're not getting up early. I've got older teenagers. Kira Hug:  They're sleeping in. Rob Marsh:  Sometimes they're not up before noon some days just because that's what young adults do. They like to relax when they don't have commitments in school and work or whatever. Mornings are absolutely golden. I'm just enjoying that. I actually, I sit down to do work earlier in the summertime, which is maybe counterintuitive. You'd think, oh, it's not early, relax a little bit more. But because it's light, because it gets so much done in the mornings by 7:00, 7:30. I'm like, okay, let's just get started on what's going on today. So it's kind of nice and I absolutely love summer. It's my favorite season. Kira Hug:  Yeah. Well, do you have a theme? Rob Marsh:  Okay. Summer summer's the theme. Kira Hug:  Fun. Summer fun.