Brought to you by Brave Search API—An independent, global search index you can use to power your search or AI app | Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | Superhuman—The fastest email experience ever made—Jiaona Zhang (JZ) is a product leader with a strong background in consumer products and extensive hiring and management experience. She is currently SVP of Product at Webflow as well as a lecturer at Stanford, where she teaches a graduate-level course on product management. Before Webflow, JZ was Head of Product for the Homes Platform at Airbnb and has also led product teams at Airbnb, WeWork, and Dropbox. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Building a “minimum lovable product” rather than a minimum viable product• How to create better roadmaps through storytelling• Top lessons from Dropbox, Airbnb, WeWork, and Webflow• The importance of setting ambitious OKRs• JZ’s first 90 days playbook: how to succeed in a new role• Advice for early-career PMs—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-minimum-lovable-products—Where to find Jiaona Zhang:• Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/managing-your-pm-career• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jiaona/• Website: https://www.jiaonazhang.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) JZ’s background(04:22) Common mistakes new PMs make(06:44) Why Airbnb Plus didn’t work out, and takeaways from that experience(10:51) Executing big dreams step-by-step(13:45) The right way to push back against founders(16:54) Minimum lovable product vs. minimum viable product(20:53) What makes a product lovable(22:20) Advice on roadmapping and prioritization(28:04) Tips for new PMs to accelerate their career(29:16) JZ’s top skills and how they have evolved over her career(31:37) Designing crisp OKRs(36:09) Lessons from WeWork(43:01) Winning the first 90 days at a new company(48:34) Why trust is crucial(51:48) High-level lessons from Dropbox, Airbnb, WeWork, and Webflow(56:38) The one piece of advice that transformed JZ’s career(58:39) Lightning round—Referenced:• Mike Lewis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikelewis/• “What working at Figma taught me about customer obsession,” VP of Product Sho Kuwamoto: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-working-at-figma-taught-me-about• WeWork: https://www.wework.com/• WeCrashed on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/wecrashed/umc.cmc.6qw605uv2rwbzutk2p2fsgvq9• Sprint: How to Solve Big Problems and Test New Ideas in Just Five Days: https://www.amazon.com/Sprint-Solve-Problems-Test-Ideas/dp/150112174X• The Making of a Manager: What to Do When Everyone Looks to You: https://www.amazon.com/Making-Manager-What-Everyone-Looks/dp/0735219567• Tress of the Emerald Sea: A Cosmere Novel: https://www.amazon.com/Tress-Emerald-Sea-Brandon-Sanderson/dp/1250899656/• Arcane on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81435684• Snoo: https://www.happiestbaby.com/• Midjourney: https://www.midjourney.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

For our 60th episode, we’re doing things a little bit differently — with a new guest host! Welcome to Todd Jackson, who’s filling in for Brett Berson this week.Todd is also a Partner at First Round, and the episodes he hosts will mostly focus on product, given his previous product roles, from the VP of Product & Design at Dropbox and Director of Product Management at Twitter, to being a PM at Facebook and Google, leading Newsfeed and Gmail. He was also a founder — his startup Cover was backed by First Round in 2013 and later acquired by Twitter. (For more on Todd and his advice for company building, check out his article in The First Round Review from a couple years ago.)Today, Todd chats with Jiaona Zhang, the VP of Product at Webflow. (She goes by JZ though, so you’ll hear that throughout their conversation.) You might remember her popular Review article, Don’t Serve Burnt Pizza (And Other Lessons in Building Minimum Lovable Products)Before joining Webflow, JZ was the Senior Director of Product Management at WeWork, a Product Lead at Airbnb, and a PM at Dropbox and at Pocket Gems, a mobile gaming company. JZ also teaches product at Stanford and mentors a lot of rising product leaders, so she’s the perfect person to talk to about building a career in product.As the framework for the entire conversation, we start with why she doesn’t think of it as a career ladder, but rather as three distinct phases: contributing as a PM, managing PMs, and then leading the function. Here’s a preview of what Todd and JZ cover:The PM role. Advice on breaking into the function, what you should look for when you’re a candidate interviewing for PM roles, and the mistakes that are easy to make early on.The managing phase, including how to think more strategically as you get more senior, archetypes to look for when hiring, and her advice for first-time managers. The executive phase. JZ talks about thinking of your org as a product, and she shares super tactical pointers for working with your CEO, your peers on the exec team, and the board.Whether you’re trying to break into product, grow in your career, or you’re a founder looking for hiring advice, there’s tons in this conversation for you.You can follow JZ on Twitter at @jiaonazhang. You can email us questions directly at review@firstround.com or follow us on Twitter @firstround and @tjack.

Letting a person into your home involves a careful evaluation process, but with the right behavioral principles, it can become a task that you can easily perform from your smartphone. In this episode, the talented Product Leader Jiaona Zhang shares the most significant lessons learned while being part of the Product Development team in Airbnb, such as the importance of progress trackers, real time feedback and host measurement beyond the guest reviews. Listen and learn how to build experiences that delight and bring the best out of each user!Jump straight into:(01:10) - Today’s guest Jiaona Zhang introduction.(02:30) - Consider using progress trackers: Insights from the onboarding flow design for hosts at Airbnb.(09:03) - Trying to hit the mark: The science that makes uploading photos to Airbnb a less daunting experience.(10:59) - Rapid and relevant feedback: How Airbnb achieves small incremental changes in hosts' behavior and deals with bad experiences.(17:00) - Enabling more honest reviews: The secret sauce behind the rating system development in Airbnb.(23:07) - Measurement beyond the ratings: How response time impacts the way in which the app measures each host (and how that measurement improves the host behavior).(27:47) - Carrots and sticks: The value of public recognition and enhancing the communication between guests and hosts.(32:36) - Micro learnings from setting new norms: The link between interaction and comfort (and providing guests the choice to interact).(35:38) - Everyone wants to be delighted: Lessons from Jiaona’s early gaming experience that have impacted her PM skills.(40:11) - A spirit of optimization: What change has Airbnb established over the last 10 years?Episode resourcesConnect with JZ through LinkedIn and TwitterThank you for listening to The Science of Change. Reach out to Kristen through LinkedIn and visit The Irrational Labs website for more information on behavioral science. This show is presented by SetSail (follow on LinkedIn) and produced by Irrational Labs and Studio Pod Media. Our executive producer is Rachael Roberts, all episodes are written by Kristen Berman and Ying Lin with expert script editing by Jack Buehrer. Special thanks Lydia Trupe for fact checking and citations.