The Tim Ferriss Show
#641: Roland Griffiths, PhD — Life’s Ultimate Glide Path, An Unexpected Stage IV Diagnosis, Facing Death, How Meditation and Psychedelics Can Help, and The Art of Living a Life of Gratitude
Episode guests
Podcast summary created with Snipd AI
Quick takeaways
- Psychedelic research requires careful study design to mitigate biased outcomes.
- Personal involvement in psychedelic research can introduce potential bias.
- Psychedelics can induce long-lasting and meaningful experiences.
- There are similarities between naturally occurring mystical experiences and those induced by psychedelics.
- Meditation and mindfulness practices can provide clarity and joy in the face of terminal illness.
- Establishing an endowment for psychedelic research can lead to awakening and cultural transformation.
Deep dives
The Decision to Study Psychedelics
In the late 1990s, the speaker became intrigued by altered states of consciousness and decided to conduct research on psychedelics. Despite having no personal interest or experience with psychedelics, the speaker recognized the potential of these substances to induce significant altered states, aligning with their interest in consciousness. The lack of research in this field made it an unexplored area worth investigating.
Collaboration and Study Design
The speaker collaborated with experts in the field of meditation and psychedelics, such as Bill Richards and Bob Jesse. The study design was carefully crafted to ensure blinded conditions, both for the guides and the volunteers. The study included a control group, with participants being unaware that everyone would receive a high dose of ritalin and psilocybin. The goal was to eliminate bias and expectancy effects in both the experimenters and participants, allowing for rigorous and impartial research.
Challenges in Conducting Psychedelic Research
The speaker acknowledges the difficulty in conducting unbiased psychedelic research, particularly due to the cultural enthusiasm and preconceived expectations surrounding psychedelics. Participant expectancy effects and selection bias can affect the outcomes, making it challenging to distinguish the true effects of psychedelics. Additionally, blinding participants with psychedelics remains a significant challenge, as their effects are distinct and recognizable. The speaker recognizes these challenges and the need for careful study design to mitigate biased outcomes.
Personal Engagement with Psychedelics
While the speaker conducted research on psychedelics, they did not personally engage with psychedelics until after several years of research. The focus was on research design and objective exploration rather than personal interest. The speaker recognized the potential bias that personal involvement may introduce and maintained a commitment to impartiality in their research.
Profound and meaningful experiences with psychedelic compounds
Psychedelic experiences, such as those induced by psilocybin, have been reported to bring about substantial changes in worldview, positive changes in mood and behavior, and experiences that are considered among the most meaningful in a person's life. Unlike other drugs, the impact of psychedelics can be long-lasting, with individuals recalling these experiences as the most significant of their lifetime.
Mystical experiences and the literature on them
The podcast discusses the rarity and elusiveness of naturally occurring mystical experiences, where people have reported life-changing epiphanies seemingly out of nowhere. Researchers have delved into the literature on mystical experiences and have found similarities between these naturally occurring experiences and those induced by psychedelics. The podcast suggests that the remarkable effects and transformative power of psychedelics align with the literature on mystical experiences.
The personal use of psychedelics
The podcast delves into the topic of personal psychedelic use. The speaker, a researcher, initially remained reluctant to discuss personal experiences due to historical stigma and misunderstanding surrounding psychedelics. However, after having studied them extensively and conducting research, the speaker personally experienced higher dose experiences with psychedelics, recognizing the potential overlap between these experiences and meditation practices. These personal experiences have contributed to the speaker's deep curiosity and understanding of the effects of psychedelics.
Navigating a terminal cancer diagnosis with meditation and mindfulness
The podcast shifts focus to the speaker's journey with a terminal cancer diagnosis and how meditation and mindfulness practices have influenced their experience. Despite the shocking diagnosis, the speaker's meditation practice and previous experiences with psychedelics have given them a sense of clarity, equanimity, and joy. They emphasize the importance of gratitude for the preciousness of life and the invitation for others to awaken to the present moment, celebrate life, and nurture a sense of wonder, regardless of their circumstances.
Embracing the Curiosity of Death
The speaker reflects on his conversations with cancer patients about their beliefs regarding death and the importance of maintaining curiosity about the possibility of something beyond death. He acknowledges his own bias towards a reductionistic worldview but remains open to the idea that something else might occur. He expresses deep curiosity about death and emphasizes the importance of awakening and celebrating the preciousness of life.
Changing Beliefs and Dualistic Thinking
The speaker discusses the changes in beliefs observed in cancer patients before and after psychedelic experiences. He highlights a shift towards being more open to the possibility of something continuing after death. Additionally, he mentions that there is a shift towards dualistic thinking, with the belief that the mind is separate from the body. The speaker suggests that studying the effects of psychedelics on different populations, including atheists and monastics, can further our understanding of these transformative experiences and their potential benefits.
Establishing an Endowment for Psychedelic Research
The speaker shares his motivation behind establishing an endowment for psychedelic research. He expresses his desire for humankind to awaken and appreciate the preciousness of life, which he believes can be facilitated through psychedelic experiences. He outlines the vision for research conducted on secular spirituality and well-being, examining the universal aspects of these experiences and exploring their potential for altering culture. The speaker concludes by emphasizing the significant impact this research can have on our species survival and the need for continued funding and support.
Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. This is a very meaningful episode to me. It is probably the most significant interview that I've recorded in the last year, and it is with one of my favorite people and one of my favorite scientists in the world: Roland Griffiths, PhD.
Roland has recently been diagnosed with what is very likely terminal stage-four cancer. If you've ever found yourself inspired by someone who walks the walk, this episode is worth listening to. In facing mortality and potentially facing death, what Roland has done and is doing, the perspective he is finding, and the tools he is using, are nothing short of awe inspiring. His example is beyond words, and I wanted to share that with all of you.
I hope you find it as deeply enriching and valuable as I did. It is a very tender conversation at points, a very funny conversation, and in many ways, a very profound conversation.
To learn more about Roland’s very ambitious project to establish a world-class psychedelic research program—in perpetuity—to advance human flourishing and well-being, please visit GriffithsFund.org.
Currently, Roland has received pledges totaling about $14M. This means that he is $6M short of the $20M target, sufficient to support the full research program. To donate, please visit GriffithsFund.org and click “Donate.”
For more information about establishing a major gift, please contact Mike DeVito, the Senior Associate Director of Development at mdevito1@jhmi.edu or call him at (443) 278-3174. Donors who contribute $1000 or more and who do not choose to remain anonymous will be acknowledged on the website.
Here is Roland’s bio:
Roland Griffiths, PhD, is a Professor in the Departments of Psychiatry and Neurosciences at Johns Hopkins University, and founding Director of the Johns Hopkins Center on Psychedelic and Consciousness Research. His principal research focus in both clinical and preclinical laboratories has been on the behavioral and subjective effects of mood-altering drugs.
His research has been largely supported by grants from the National Institute on Health, and he is author of over 400 scientific publications. He has been a consultant to the National Institutes of Health, the World Health Organization, and numerous pharmaceutical companies. Roland has conducted extensive research with sedative-hypnotics, caffeine, and novel mood-altering drugs.
In 1994 Roland started a regular meditation practice that made him curious about certain altered states of consciousness that prompted him in 1999 to initiate the first study in decades to rigorously evaluate the effects of a high dose of a classic psychedelic drug (psilocybin) in healthy psychedelic-naïve participants. Subsequent studies with psilocybin have been conducted in healthy volunteers, in beginning and long-term meditators, and in religious leaders. Therapeutic studies with psilocybin include treatment of psychological distress in cancer patients, cigarette smoking addiction, major depression, anorexia nervosa, and Alzheimer’s Disease. Other studies have examined non-psychedelic drugs that produce altered states of consciousness having similarities to psilocybin. Brain imaging studies have examined pharmacological and neural mechanisms of action of psilocybin.
Roland’s research group has also conducted a series of survey studies characterizing various naturally-occurring and psychedelic-occasioned transformative experiences including: mystical-type experiences, psychologically challenging experiences, near-death experiences (NDEs), Entity and God-encounter experiences, and experiences to which reduced anxiety, depression, and substance use disorders are attributed.
Please enjoy!
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[05:15] Roland’s earliest personal experience with psychedelics.
[11:07] Meditation and interest in altered states of consciousness.
[18:32] What is phenomenology?
[21:44] Why early attempts at meditation failed, and what made Roland revisit the practice.
[29:13] Roland’s work with sedative-hypnotics in the late ’70s.
[33:02] Connoisseurs of puff topography.
[36:36] When Roland realized the voice in his head wasn’t his.
[40:26] From meditation to scientific exploration of psychedelics.
[50:29] Entheogens vs. psychedelics.
[54:57] Roland’s initial reluctance to experiment with psychedelics.
[59:36] Sasha Shulgin, PiHKAL, and TiHKAL.
[1:02:12] Bill Richards.
[1:03:30] Challenges of the psychedelic trial process.
[1:12:41] The results of Roland’s first major psychedelic study.
[1:16:46] Pre-existing literature on mystical experiences.
[1:18:39] Roland’s more recent psychedelic experiences.
[1:27:23] Why isn’t Roland devastated by his terminal diagnosis?
[1:42:47] Ego dissolution and anxiety reduction.
[1:49:44] The real purpose of this conversation.
[1:54:50] A rundown of Roland’s diagnosis and how he’s coping with it.
[2:03:44] “Every day is Thanksgiving.”
[2:05:39] Gratitude meditation, liver embolization, and other mortality navigations.
[2:11:36] Satcitananda.
[2:13:18] Eliciting 5-MeO “placebo” experiences without psychedelics.
[2:29:14] How does Roland relate to death?
[2:34:59] How loved ones can be supportive of someone coping with a terminal diagnosis.
[2:38:30] Belief changes associated with psychedelic use.
[2:40:45] Thoughts from the crossroads of the quantum, the paranormal, and the psychedelic.
[2:52:30] Roland’s endowed professorship and its foreseeable areas of research.
[3:09:01] David Yaden.
[3:18:23] Is there a contingency if Usona ceases to exist?
[3:19:42] Roland’s current prognosis.
[3:23:38] Roland’s parting thoughts of gratitude and the road ahead.
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