Today we are honored by a second visit from Tahn Pamutto, who first appeared as a podcast guest on November 4, 2024, where he described his transition from a soldier in Iraq to an ordained Buddhist monk. He also gave us a taste of Buddhist teachings, and compared them to what we to in TEAM-CBT.

There were certainly a number of areas of overlap. For example, as a psychiatrist, my goal is often to help bring patients as rapidly as possible from a state of unhappiness and depression to a state of joy and enlightenment, using a number of specific psychological techniques we call TEAM-CBT. But part of this is spiritual in nature as well.

Tahn’s role as an ordained Buddhist monk is similar, in part. His goal is help people who ask for guidance how to discover the cause of unhappiness, and the path to happiness, using a number of spiritual exercises, including meditation. But part of these exercises are psychological as well.

Today, Tahn began by contrasting a spiritual vs a materialistic view of life, and emphasized that the materialist view cannot solve the problem of unhappiness or provide us with happiness. This is, in part, because material things are impermanent, and will all ultimately disappear.

Negative feelings, like unhappiness, actually result from our thoughts--how we view the world. The world is the world, and you can accept that, or you can protest and shout angrily that things “should” be different or “shouldn’t” be the way they are, but your feelings will always result from the way you think about the world.

He said that when he was growing up, all his needs were taken care of, and happiness was fleeting, so he embarked on a search for answers. Who was I, and why was I struggling with so much unhappiness?

He said,

“To explore and really find out who I was, I’d have to depart from my comfort. When I joined the army, it sounded great. It was all about patriotism, loyalty, honor, service, and all kinds of positive values. . .

But then at some point, they say that’s time to invade this or that country, and you have to try to make that work, since you can’t challenge the mission. The Iraq war was going on, and I spend 13 months there.

But if your mission is wrong, you will keep suffering, no matter how hard you try. Did the people in Iraq really want us there? Are we really doing anything that’s positive or good?

And what is it that I really want to do with my life?

One thing we have to recognize is two things that cannot be denied: our mortality and the existence of unhappiness. As I began to accept these two inevitable facts, I also realized that there is no quick solution, and that the reality is that our unhappiness may not end on its own. We may go to sleep, and escape for a while, but when we wake up, we will still be unhappy. We could even imagine being reincarnated and having a different body, a different religion, or living in a different time, but our suffering still won’t change. I may be a different person, but I will still be unhappy.

I asked myself if and how I could train myself to accept what life brings me. . . and wondered whether is would be possible to pursue unending happiness? And if so, how would I go about it? What I do?

When I was in Iraq, I applied for conscientious objector status and eventually got out on an early retirement. Then, I began looking for an experienced, humble teacher who could share their knowledge with me.

I bought a backpack and some hiking shoes, and began to search so I could learn what I needed to learn. I didn’t have much knowledge of Buddhism at all at that time.

I left my mother’s house in New Jersey and started walking. I walked 20 miles, but realized I was going in the wrong direction, and had to walk 20 miles back and start over, walking in the opposite direction.

The first night of my journey, I got exhausted and slept on a park bench. In the middle of the night, I thought I heard loud explosions, and woke up feeling terrified, but it was just acorns falling down from the oak tree I was sleeping under.

In the Army I had learned the wrong way, and that’s why I decided to search, but any old street in New Jersey probably didn’t have what I was looking for. I decided to search for the answer in Asia instead, and wandered in India, Thailand, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan.

I went into Temples and Mosques. I had the romantic notion that some wise bearded man would come out of nowhere and tap on my shoulder and say, “We’ve been waiting for you, Tahn! You have finally arrived!”

But it doesn’t work like that.

In Thailand, there is a monastic level to society, as well as a commercial level. Thailand and Burma are certainly not perfect as countries, but have a higher than average level of happiness because the people are generous and help each other. If I wanted, I could just go and stay at a Temple. Much of their society is based on the joy of giving and receiving. People in the monastic level are living primarily on donations.

I decided I wanted to become a monk. That was what I wanted to do.

I learned about the importance of the “Contemplation of Death.” Most people want to avoid thinking about death. But death and the loss of all materialistic things is inevitable. You cannot avoid it, and might want to base your daily decisions on this fact.

For example, you could ask yourself, “Suppose I knew that I would die this evening. What would I do today? Would I continue shopping for a couch? Or feuding with my neighbor?”

If you did this contemplation every day, you might discover that you’re doing what you think you should do, rather than what you want to do. You may be pursuing materialistic goals that inevitably cause unhappiness.

Let’s say you live in a small cabin, and notice some leaves on the floor. You might decide to sweep the leaves out of the cabin. Then, if you die, they will find your body on a clean floor. That would make it easy for someone else to move into the cabin.

This path (the daily Contemplation of Death), he explained, is one way to get to the destination of unconditional happiness.

Rhonda asked Tahn why he decided to become a teacher. He explained that he did not make that decision, but as he wandered and practiced the monastic life, people would stop and ask him questions about truth and enlightenment and the meaning of life, and so forth. Over time, he realized that because of his travels and searches, he began to gain more and more experience, and sometimes had something to offer individuals who were earlier in their journeys, and also looking for guidance.

He said that the reality of being a monk is not glamourous. Our needs are really pretty minimal. We need food, shelter, clothing, and medicine if we are sick.

But beyond that, the monk gets little. If you need clothes, you may have access to a pile or rags that you can sew together to make a piece of clothing, or you may have to eat the leftovers when others have finished eating. You have to learn to live on what extras might be given to you.

He explained that

I’ve actually been surprised by how much love and support there is in the world. I’ve been well-taken-care-of. My main interest has been to learn about the mind. Of course, we have our basic needs to survive, but what are we doing to develop spiritually?

He mentioned that the monastic order is not structured, it is not a hierarchy, and you can come and go anytime you want. The Buddha accepted the strong desire of his followers to evolve into a church, as a structure to preserve the teachings, but this was a compromise. The Buddha was simply sharing something  that had already existed before he was born, something that anyone can discover, with or without a structure or system.

At some point, you may say, “I quit,” and start to do what you want to do, know that your time to be alive is limited.

Here are some of the questions people ask Tahn in his travels.

• How can I deal with my intense anger?

Tahn said, "When people “find me” when I am traveling, or wandering, they often think that “this encounter was meant to happen.”

He said that Buddhists do not proselytize, and there is no concept of “conversion.”

He teaches people that “You are going to have to die. You’re are going to have to give it all up one day.”

He asks, “What are you seeking? What is ailing you?”

He tells us that the Buddha taught us the cause of all unhappiness, and how to find happiness. Anyone can find what the Buddha discovered.

The goal is the cessation of unhappiness.

Is never-ending happiness possible?

Tahn said:

We certainly know that clear days, with no clouds, are possible. The clouds are not a part of the sky, they are just droplets of moisture, and the sky is not affected by the clouds. Clouds and unhappiness are very evitable.

Tahn finished by saying, “Our unhappiness is independent from our happiness.”

That’s my best translation of the interview, and I’m sure I missed a lot, and misinterpreted parts as well. I do know that it was a great pleasure and honor to spend 90 minutes with Tahn. I hope you learned something and found Tahn’s story interesting.

And here’s one tip that’s helped me, and it might help you on your own journey. Sometimes, when I hear a Buddhist story or teaching, it sounds nonsensical at first. I can’t “get it.”

Then, a few days later, the meaning often comes, or at least A meaning, and I feel happy to have learned something kind of cool!

Hope you have that experience, and apologize for any incoherence you find in the show notes, today!

Warmly,

Tahn, Rhonda, and David