Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

Most of us think we're great communicators… but the truth is, we often aren't. At the free webinar on Wednesday, December 3 from 11 to 1 PT, you'll learn some tremendous new skills that will blow your mind. They'll also transform your relationships with the people you care about! Sign up now at FeelingGoodWebinar.com. It's for EVERYBODY! Shrinks and the general public alike are warmly welcomed. Therapists can purchase two CE credits if you attend the live event. See you there!

COMING UP IN JANUARY: Fast Track to LEVEL 3 TEAM CBT Certification Howdy! If you're a therapist looking to strengthen your TEAM CBT skills and earn continuing education credit, here's an exceptional opportunity coming up in January 2026. Feeling Good Institute's Fast Track to Level 3 TEAM CBT Certification Starts January 16, 2026 • 25 weeks • 46 CEs Special Offer for Podcast Listeners: Use discount code FRIEND50 for a course price of $595.* Enroll Now at FastTrackCBT.com. This hybrid course combines: • Live weekly practice groups • Self-paced video training featuring Dr. David Burns & Dr. Jill Levitt • Deliberate Practice exercises such as Externalization of Voices and the Double Standard Technique • FREE Therapist Toolkit ($199 value) • Certification exam fees included *Early-Career Clinicians: If you're an Associate or Postdoc in the USA or Canada, use code EarlyCareer2026 and get the course for just $195 plus exam fee. Enroll Now at FastTrackCBT.com. If you want to level up your therapy skills for the rest of your career, this may be the ideal time.

David and Jill's Amazing Exposure Webinar Part 2 of 2 Today, you will hear part 2 of the Webinar that Dr. Jill Levitt and I did on September 11th on TEAM CBT and powerful exposure techniques for anxiety disorders. Jill's fantastic teaching includes the importance of recognizing the "Safety Behaviors" that sabotage effective exposure therapy. You will hear the dramatic story of a woman who recovered from more than 20 years of OCD / germ phobia in less than one minute while attending David's free weekly psychotherapy seminar at Stanford. You will also learn about "Memory Rescripting," and how it suddenly changed the life of a veteran who'd lost the capacity to feel human feelings following a traumatic experience in Vietnam 25 years earlier. Thanks for listening. Please let us know if you want future webinars presenting as podcasts. We will also publish them in their entirety on our YouTube Feeling Great channel, so the additional publication on a podcast may be overkill. Let us know! Warmly, Rhonda, Jill, and David

David and Jill's Amazing Exposure Webinar Part 1 of 2 Today, you will hear part 1 of the Webinar that Dr. Jill Levitt and I did on September 11th of the fine points of exposure techniques for anxiety disorders. More than 2,000 individuals (mainly therapists, but many general public as well) registered for this event. It was super well received, thanks in large part to Jill's super awesome teaching skills! I feel so lucky every time we teach together. In part 1 today, you will hear about an overview of TEAM CBT, as well as the four treatment models we use with every person who is struggling with anxiety: The Motivational Model The Cognitive Model The Exposure Model The Hidden Emotion Model You will also see a dramatic example of the use of a powerful cognitive technique (the Experimental Technique) with Terri, a woman who'd struggled for ten years with extreme panic attacks and depression. You will see the exact moment of recovery, when her uncontrollable sobbing suddenly turned into uncontrollable laughter, joy, and relief. This may be the most dramatic psychotherapy example ever recorded. Although this podcast of the webinar is in audio only, you can also SEE this dramatic segment on YouTube at LINK to TERRI VIDEO Next week you will hear part 2 of that webinar, with Jill's fantastic teaching on the fine points of exposure, including the importance of recognizing the "Safety Behaviors" that sabotage effective treatment. You will hear the dramatic story of a woman who recovered from more than 20 years of OCD / germ phobia in less than one minute while attending David's free weekly psychotherapy seminar at Stanford. You will also learn about "Memory Rescripting," and how it suddenly changed the life of a veteran who'd lost the capacity to feel human feelings following a traumatic experience in Vietnam 25 years earlier. Thanks for listening. Please let us know if you want future webinars presenting as podcasts. We will also publish them in their entirety on our YouTube Feeling Great channel, so the additional publication on a podcast may be overkill. Let us know! Warmly, Rhonda, Jill, and David

Ask David Are You Getting Old and Cranky Now? TEAM CBT and Spirituality The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question. Jenn asks: Are you getting old and cranky now? Jenn also asks: How did you get involved with / develop the spiritual and enlightenment aspect of TEAM? Dear Dr. Burns, Let me start by saying thank you for all of your hard work and diligence in creating a method which is so user friendly. Completing the book, When Panic Attacks, changed my life and helped me reach enlightenment. My Ask David question is inspired by the last few podcasts, the live session with Rhonda and the live session with Madelaine which David just did with Jill. David has clearly worked so hard to create TEAM and has dedicated so much time to perfect it. I was lucky enough to have been introduced to the podcast when it first started. Some of my favorite episodes to listen to are the live therapy sessions. I've gained insight and felt heard through many of these such as when David told Lee how lonely enlightenment can be because I agree with that! Recently I have noticed that David's demeanor has changed and was hoping to ask about it. I can imagine David might feel lonely in his expertise sometimes. I might be on the wrong track here too but I wonder if David might be feeling frustrated with the lack of understanding from people around him. He has been dedicating his life to this and still people do not understand certain aspects of his research and teaching. On recent podcasts, David had mentioned that he gets more irritated with teaching now too and it has seemed like he is irritated with Rhonda at points. He has mentioned that he feels disappointed if he doesn't see change in 2 hour sessions. Recently I watched a live session with Madelaine and some of the techniques (for example, calling her negative self sociopath during counter attack) did not seem to land or resonate with her and that wasn't addressed with David's usual love and tenderness and warmth with empathy. It seemed rushed and not necessarily focused on the patient outcome but the timeline. I did not find it to be David's usual work of patience and warmth. I could be completely off the rails but I am wondering if this is resonating with David and if he could share more about what it's been like for him recently. I also am wondering if it is difficult to navigate being seen as "a great leader" in a field. Do people see you as "David" simply a dedicated expert in your field or do people treat you like a "God" that has all the answers? I can imagine people would want help from you 24/7 and if you could speak to that. I am hoping David can look at some of those thoughts and comments he's made on the podcasts and become the client for us listeners! I would love for David to show us how to experience TEAM from the client's perspective for all to hear. I have used TEAM-CBT for 10 years and recently started the Fast Track Program which I am very excited for! Thank you again for this truly amazing process! Jenn David's reply Thanks, Jenn, You are right, I DO feel quite a bit of irritation with our field and can identify a bit with Martin Luther, who nailed his treatise / ideas on someone's door hundreds of years ago, and also Jesus who angrily threw the money changers out of the temple a couple thousand years ago. I know that sounds narcissistic, but that's how I feel sometimes. My frustration has several dimensions: The field, to my way of thinking, is incredibly screwed up and anti-scientific, divided into irrational cults called "schools" of therapy. Nobody seems to notice this "elephant" in our room! Hey, are you all sleeping? Did you learn critical thinking in college? When challenged by research that seriously questions the validity and effectiveness of current psychotherapies for depression and anxiety, for example, no one seems to care or notice. It seems like wrong theories die hard. People do not like being criticized and got angry when I criticize the field of psychotherapy. So, there is a kind of a "let's be politically correct" and be super "nice" to everyone, so as not to stir them up or hurt their feelings. There is a potential for massive change and improvements in psychotherapy and psychiatric treatment, but it would require a revolution and the acceptance of totally new approaches which would threaten many therapists' thinking and survival at a very basic level. Are you or others interested in my thinking? Let me know. If so, more later, maybe on a podcast or two with Jill and Matt, and of course, Rhonda. And here are the answers to some of your other questions. You say, "He has mentioned that he feels disappointed if he doesn't see change in 2 hour sessions." We're not on the same page here. I nearly always see dramatic change in 2 hour sessions, and I'm dramatic that I have created a therapeutic approach that makes this possible. When I was a young man, a psychiatric resident, I use to dream about that, and wondered if it was even possible, since I almost never saw meaningful change, much less recovery and joy, in any of my patients using the methods I was talk (supportive listening and antidepressants.) You also wrote: I also am wondering if it is difficult to navigate being seen as "a great leader" in a field. Do people see you as "David" simply a dedicated expert in your field or do people treat you like a "God" that has all the answers? Cool question. I think many people see me as a dedicated expert, but I think a few, particular from some of the Asian countries, to like to see people as "gurus" or something on that level. Sometimes I may even encourage that, as I am a strong believer that therapy, at its deepest level, does become spiritual. So, questions about spirituality and enlightenment do interest me greatly, and many of the techniques I've created are designed to facilitate rapid improvement, in minutes, vs. years of meditation. The Externalization of Voices would be an example, and it was actually the first CBT technique I created, around or even prior to 1975. You say, Recently I watched a live session with Madelaine and some of the techniques (for example, calling her negative self sociopath during counter attack) did not seem to land or resonate with her and that wasn't addressed with David's usual love and tenderness and warmth with empathy. It seemed rushed and not necessarily focused on the patient outcome but the timeline. You are partially correct and perhaps somewhat "off." Where you are right is that I miscalculated the time for the webinar, and thought we had to stop at 12:30. I later figured out we had until 1 PM, and we could have spent more time on EOV. Where you're perhaps wrong is that sometimes a confrontation can "jar" a patient into enlightenment. Few therapists use confrontation, but I have always used it, ever since my days in psychodrama as a medical student. Madeleine commented in her follow up evaluation on the things most helpful to her during the session, and that was one of them. Research has consistently proven that the observers of therapy cannot accurately assess the quality of the therapeutic alliance, as reported by the patient, or the effectiveness of what's happening during a session. I sometimes wish therapist observers had a bit more humility about the accuracy of their observations, based on research that's been replicated over and over! But there I am, whining again so I will stop! At any rate, Jenn, thanks for the wonderfully informative critical thinking, and great questions! Warmly, david Jenn's response to David Hi Dr. Burns, Thank you so much for your fast response. I am really honored that you took the time to reply to me! Thank you for your honesty too and I can imagine it's super frustrating! I do not think that sounds narcissistic, I think you are right. I find it extremely frustrating too and I am just a user and learner of TEAM. I think I "see it" sometimes since I've done some personal work. I'm still human with many flaws as I am sure you caught on to a few in my email. I completely agree with all of your points. I genuinely do not understand how TEAM-CBT is not the go-to. It is finally a scientific method that is proven to be effective. It truly leaves me speechless and I could ramble about TEAM for hours to be honest! I am a registered nurse and I have a difficult time seeing my patients being "thrown" anti-depressants etc. The biological theory was the go-to in mental health and about 10 years ago as I was finishing my nursing degree I read When Panic Attacks. It was mind blowing to me. At the time I was working on a Stroke Rehab unit and the psychologist would recommend our depressed and anxious patients be put on medication. When I asked if she had heard about your work she scoffed at it and it made me so mad! I wanted to scream at her to read your work but she was resistant to even listening and perhaps that will not surprise you based on your points (and also how I incorrectly tried to sell it to her!). I would see so many of my patients put on antidepressants and left alone afterwards as if that would solve everything. Even recently during my labour and delivery training we had a psychologist speak to us about post partum mood "disorders" and she specifically mentioned her patients "yes-butting" her and made a joke about how resistant they are to change and I just had this thought HELLOOOOO has agenda setting not been around for years????? Do people not search out solutions and try to be better? I could Google "my patient is yes-butting me" and your work would come up and it is not easy but it is spelled-out and so accessible to learn. Anyway, I could rant forever. I'm on the same page with you, Dr. Burns! Thank you for the follow-up email as well. You are right on this one for sure- my therapist observer totally was inaccurate! And I was thinking "I wonder what her EOV is here and if that was effective". I had asked that question in the chat after the webinar but it was at the end and we did not get to it So next time I will ask that as a question in my email instead. I had not seen confrontation used like that and it did seem off-putting and that just shows how well-versed you are in its use and how I am a learner. Thank you for the feedback. This is making me laugh because I am in the Fast-Track course and I really strive on feedback, and I like getting errors over with. In my nursing career I always had "med error" as the thing I never wanted to do and it felt so good when I finally made one (and it also helps the patient was fine haha). So, I had this thought about learning TEAM and how I know that the therapists are never accurate and how I never want to be the therapist that assumes their thinking. So, I am very happy to have done it already and I have not even started the course really. I want to comment and ask about the spiritual aspect of TEAM. Did you find the spirituality came after personal work or did you see the spiritual aspect before or just as you were developing the whole process? Externalization of voices and a daily mood log is what got me to enlightenment, but it is hard to put into words. I had blips of the euphoria enlightenment over the years but about 5 years ago I had this "big one" and it was not euphoric. It was nothing (but everything) and it was like I became an observer and absolutely none of my thoughts had emotional attachments. It was instant relief of human suffering for sure. Sorry if this is bizarre and I am not sure if this resonates or if I sound like a crazy person. In your podcast with Lee you mentioned that enlightenment is lonely and so I thought maybe you have been here. When it first happened it was an overwhelm of being just matter and being everything and nothing all at once. I could see humanity from an outside perspective almost. I was raised catholic and everything that I learned made sense but in a very different way than I was taught - it was like I understood what Buddha and you and the bible talks about but the deeper meaning if that makes sense. And I sat in the observer role for a couple of days and it was fine because I had no emotional attachment. Actually, as a test I looked at my husband when he got home from work the day it happened and I recognized him of course but I just felt the baseline contentment or a peace overall. The nothingness and the everythingness all at once. When I looked at him I had no emotions or gut reactions or anything and when I thought "that is my husband" I had no emotional ties but I could recognize that my human self loves him but even that love was all created from nothing and everything. This sounds so bizarre! Day 3 or 4 I went to a house party and again I was just an observer and recognized that my human ego is very tied to wanting others to like me, when I attempted humor it would be to serve my ego, before I'd try to make people laugh for me rather for them and a lot of our actions are tied to our egos. After this party, maybe the next day or something I also saw that as I was observing that although I had no emotional ties that also means…I had no emotional ties! It came to me that to live a human life I cannot be in this enlightenment stage. It was lonely even though that did not bother me at the time and seeing humans from this outside perspective is incredibly hard to describe and was overwhelming. So in my enlightenment it was almost like I had to decide to step back into trying to be human so I could carry on with life and try and find these emotional ties and what to do with this awareness of my flaws and what even my personality is. It has rocked me a bit! I have decided to just follow things that I find fun or challenging or have become an interest and the flaws quickly followed! Have you heard of anyone having a bit of fear in reaching enlightenment again? Although the initial hit was so awesome and a huge relief of suffering, I experienced truly what it is like to not have flaws and not have any emotional ties to thoughts. I do have some interesting anxious thoughts about going "back there" and this was the perfect example of "everything in moderation". I must love my flaws haha. Thanks for your time, Dr. Burns! I thought I had heard you mention during a podcast that you feel disappointed if you don't see change in a 2 hour session maybe while you were empathizing with another therapist so I apologize that I was wrong there. I am most likely remembering it incorrectly or I presented the context incorrectly -it's a common flaw of mine haha usually I need to write things down. Looking forward to hearing back, Jenn David's response to Jenn Thanks, Jenn. Awesome email. In the context of my empathizing with another therapist, I could well have said something like that for sure! You are dipping into enlightenment. Way to go. Very exciting, and now YOU will be the expert. When I lived in Philadelphia, I was lucky to audit a class by James Arbukcle at Temple University on structural equation modeling. It was unbelievably exciting for me, and even though I was in private practice, I went once a week for the three hour seminar and did 20 hours of homework every week. I could not believe my good fortune, as he made everything super simple and clear. It was a wow experience every week. For quite a while, I would ask him question when I got stuck or puzzled analyzing my data with his AMOS program, and he seemed to know everything. Which was also cool. Then, one day, he started answer my questions by saying, "Actually, I don't know the answer to that." Like, the first time this happened I asked him the cause of Heywood cases. That where you get a seemingly impossible result, like a correlation greater than one. But then, an odd thing happened. I found that if I worked at it, I could figure these things out for myself. And often, the answers would come to me in a dream, in the middle of the night. So, like James, I probably can't answer all your questions anymore, although hopefully I can still answer a few of them! By the way, James Arbuckle was one of the most amazing teachers I've ever had, and I will forever be grateful for his generosity in letting me audit his class--I was not even a student at Temple--two years in a row for free. And what I learned forever changed my career and my life, especially my way of thinking about research and statistical analyses. Warmly, david Thanks for listening today! Rhonda, Matt, and David

Discover powerful strategies to conquer shyness and social anxiety with expert insights from Dr. David Burns and Jill Levitt. They share seven impressive techniques that can help anyone, whether you're a therapist or someone dealing with these feelings personally. Learn how to overcome fears, build authentic connections, and hear a compelling therapy demonstration. With over 50,000 clinical hours backing his expertise, Dr. Burns' personal journey adds a relatable touch to these invaluable insights. Don't miss this life-changing opportunity!

Discover the art of positive reframing—should we focus on feelings or specific thoughts? Explore the reliability of the '20 Qualities' mate checklist and how to effectively use it in dating. Learn the importance of asking direct questions to gauge loyalty and sincerity in relationships. Discover tips on spotting red flags and why patience in intimacy can reveal true character. Plus, insights on deepening connections through shared experiences and challenges are discussed.

Dr. David Burns and Jill Levitt will teach you seven jaw-dropping techniques to end feelings of shyness and social anxiety. For shrinks AND for the general public. If you're hurting, or you have patients who are hurting, we want you to join us! It's 100% free. Therapists even get two FREE CE credits if you attend the live event. Sign up now at CBTforSocialAnxiety.com. This event could change your life. It's Wednesday, November 5th, 2025, from 11 AM to 1 PM Pacific Coast Time. Be THERE!

Ask David, Dr. Matthew May asks--and helps us answer--the most common question he hears from his patients and fans: How do I help a loved one, friend, or colleague who's upset, agitated, angry, anxious, and more? Matt asks: People ask me about a loved one who is anxious, and want to know what to do to help that person. Example: "My daughter is hooked on social media. She's literally 'addicted'. She has terrible insomnia, low self-esteem, anxiety, hopelessness, depression, anger and fits of rage when we try to take her phone away. When my daughter is online, she texts things like: Is this really happening? This can't be happening OMG! This is terrible! How awful! Why am I so unpopular? I'm totally alone I shouldn't have posted all that stuff Everyone thinks I'm an idiot I have to do something to fit in Everything's hopeless. I give up. Is someone monitoring and recording me? All those creeps are evil and deserve worse than what they're getting On the podcast, Matt, Rhonda and David demonstrate effective and ineffective ways of responding to your loved one, or to anyone who is complaining and feeling upset. They use role-playing to illustrate the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, and you will see how hard it can be to hit it out of the park, even for experts! Thanks for listening today! In the upcoming weeks, we'll have several more Ask David episodes with these questions and more. Julia asks: is it more important to do positive reframing on feelings (anxiety, anger, frustration) rather than on specific thoughts («I should be calmer»)? Charlotte asks: What's the best way to use the "20 Qualities I'm looking for in an ideal mate?" Charlotte also asks: What's the best way to find out if someone you're dating is going to be loyal, faithful, and honest? Jenn asks: Are you getting old and cranky now? Zhang asks: I have intrusive daydreams and obsess about getting things perfect? What's causing this? And what can I do? Yevhen asks: How can I use "I Feel" Statements without oversharing? George asks: Would my approach help someone who is suicidal? No Name asks: Do I need to worry about my daughter's anxiety? Jeffrey asks: Can you disarm yourself? Thanks for listening today! Rhonda, Matt, and David

You're Right! A Deep Dive on the Disarming Technique Featuring Dr. Brandon Vance On today's podcast, we will be practicing the Disarming Technique and illustrate the Law of Opposites, using real examples with lots of potential for learning. We feature our good friend and esteemed colleague, Brandon Vance, MD, who is an advanced TEAM therapist. Starting on November 5, Brandon will be offering a 6-week course on a Deep Dive Five Secrets Practice Group, meeting weekly from 12 to1:30, until December 10th. This course is strongly recommended for anyone who wants to learn and master the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. To learn more, you can click here Our goals for today's podcast will be to illustrate how to disarm, with role play examples, of any number of very challenging examples. Once we have done role reversals and developed a good or excellent response to the criticism, we will try to point out two things important for teaching the Disarming Technique. The Law of Opposite: Here it is: When you humbly find the real truth in the criticism, even if it sounds exaggerated, distorted, unfair, or just plan wrong, it suddenly won't be true anymore. This is a paradox! In contrast, if you defend yourself from the criticism, which you WILL do, you will simply prove that the criticism is correct. This is also a paradox! We will illustrate some strategies for how to disarm seemingly "impossibly wrong and unfair" criticisms. We started with a classic example. Let's say a loved one angrily insists, "You never listen." Then we focused on a challenging clinical example, a patient who insists that "You're to worst shrink I've EVER had! Where did you do your psychiatric training? At a veterinarian school?" The exercise is fairly simple in structure, but quite challenging when you try it out in an actual role play exercise with a friend or colleague. Step 1: Your colleague or friends hits you with one of the following criticisms listed below. Step 2: You respond as effectively as you can, using the Disarming Technique and the rest of the Five Secrets of Effective Communication as needed. Step 3. Your colleague gives you a letter grade along with what you did that was effective, and where you missed the boat. Step 4. Do a role reversal and repeat the above steps. Continue with this process until you get an A in your response to the criticism. I don't have a full list of strategies for agreeing with impossible criticisms, but here are two: continue editing here Don't respond to the criticism literally. Instead, try to "hear" what the other person is trying to say to you. Example: Your patient says, "This is the second week in a row that you've been late to our sessions." Ineffective, literal response: "Yes, that's true. I've been delayed by emergency situations both today and last week." Explanation: This is harsh and literal, and misses the point entirely. This patient is trying to tell you that they feel ignored and uncared about, and this may in fact be a central dynamic in their life. Somewhat more effective response: "Yes, I share your concern, especially since I have high regard for you and hate having to be late. I'm really worried it will come across as uncaring and irresponsible. In fact, I had unexpected emergencies with suicidal patients both days, and will certainly make up the missed time for you, and not even charge you for today's session. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if you feel hurt and even a bit angry with me, and for good reason. Can you tell me how you are feeing?" This type of response gives you the chance to turn your lemons into lemonade! When you disarm, never say, "I can see how you might feel that way!" This is just a subtle way of sending this insulting message" 'You're wrong, and you're making a misinterpretation because you're a disturbed patient!" If a psychotic individuals makes a bizarre-sounding criticism, listen to the music behind the words and respond to that in a disarming way. For example, imagine that your hospitalized inpatient with paranoid schizophrenia says, "I know you're conspiring against me with the FBI." What is this patient trying to tell you? They are telling you, symbolically, something like this: "During our session yesterday, you were not trustworthy. I was anxious and still am!" So, you might respond like this: "Jim, I am embarrassed to admit that I agree with you completely, and also feel bad about it. During our session yesterday, I did a lousy job of supporting you, and we just didn't connect, which was my bad. I felt like an enemy, and not your ally, so I get what you're saying. This is important because I care a great deal for you. Can you tell me what it was like for you yesterday?" With this type of kindly, disarming, and non-threatening response, most patients will open up right away. This list of errors is not comprehensive. It's just a started kit to point you, hopefully, in the right direction. You will get many of the fine points by listening to the live podcast. You might enjoy reviewing the following list of difficult / impossible criticisms you might hear from patients or friends of family members. It can be really helpful to see if you can find a way to agree with these criticisms that's genuine and effective. Burns, isn't it true that you're a total fraud and a worthless human being? You're full of shit and you know it! I followed your suggestion on what to say to my relative, even using the 5-Secrets, and now they won't speak to me. Rhonda says: Just to be clear, the following challenges from unhappy kids were not directed at me! I wish you had died instead of Mom. (We practiced this one on the live podcast.) Can you give me my inheritance now, so I don't have to see you ever again? You need to butt out of what you don't understand. All I remember from my childhood is how you weren't there for me. You should have protected me when I was a kid, but you didn't. Here are some more from patients in various setting. A patient yells out as you pass on the locked inpatient psych ward: "Doctor, you're trying to kill me!" Or as a (non-suicidal) private practice patient said: "You probably wish I was dead!" Or "You like your other patients better than me" An angry patient says: "you've ruined my life!" An unhappy patient says: I bet you faked your diploma! More personal / family examples A romantic partner says "you're gaslighting me". A friend says "you're flirting with my girlfriend - you're trying to steal her away from me!" Your wife says "you're having an affair" when you're not. Your teenage son says "I know I was an accident and you wish you never even had me." Your student catches you in the hallway and winks saying, "You like me better than the other students, right?" Thanks for listening today! Brandon, Rhonda, and David