Hacking for good: ideas and tips

In this espisode Beth, Lee and Dan look at the mechanics of a creating hackathons based on our experiences on various projects around ethical and hackign for good.   From CSIRO projects to the Imagine Academy we we look at what makes them a success and share tips on what works well. 

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 10

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

Welcome to the AI podcast. How are you, Lee? How are you, Beth? Very good, Dan. Very good, Dan. The AI podcast. So, we're still we're on that. We got to change that, you know. It's coming. It's coming. He's on his way. How are you, Beth? I'm well, thank you, Dan. What have you been up to? Uh, well, I'm enjoying a bit of sun finally here in Adelaide, which is Very nice. Um, but I have actually been doing some interesting work way out of my comfort zone which is participating in our global hackathon. Oh, cool. Tell us more. I would love to tell you more. So, um, I sort of stumbled into this program actually. So, I have a real passion for sustainability. I've done sustainability a bit in some previous jobs of mine and I've also been volunteering to um, to manage the sustainable um community here at Microsoft here in Australia. Um and I saw this hack advertised um Microsoft does a global hackathon as you know every year in October and I saw this hack advertised looking for people to support a project with the CSRO. So I put myself forward um to participate as a team member and uh long story short I was appointed into the team not as a team member but as the team manager and um fantastic so so led um actually an incredible experience that I'm still buzzing from in terms of um what I've learned and the people that I've managed to connect with and um hopefully providing support to the CSIRO that will have a longer term impact. So are you allowed to talk about the pro type of project you're on? Yeah, I I would uh be very keen to talk about it actually. So I you know I guess back in the day um I had the opportunity when I was working for a global healthcare company to manage um or develop and manage a carbon reporting framework for the business at a global level. Um that is also a a wonderful example of um stumbling into a project putting my hand up and accidentally ending up leading it at a global level. Wow. So you um you learn by doing I think is is the um is the the adage there. So as we perhaps all know now carbon calculations are really important for us to to better reduce our impact on the environment. And if you can't measure your carbon emissions, you can't reduce them. But that is just one part of the story. So this is and this is I guess what I've learned doing this biodiversity. project with the CSRO. So, carbon emissions are just one part of an organization's impact on the environment. So, that also includes things like um the impact of their operations on land use and water use, um air pollution, um the impact that they have in regard to animal populations. And so, um looking at an organizational um impact in a more holistic way is really important. So looking at the impact of an organization on local biodiversity, what makes biodiversity really hard to report on is that it's hard to c calculate, which is where the CSRO comes in. So the the uh um CSRO is an organization that we partner with across a range of different topics and we have been providing some specific support to their scientists who are looking at um this challenge of capturing biodiversity data and using that data to demonstrate environmental biodiversity value uh variables, EBVS, and using that data to provide insight to organizations as to whether or not they're having a good impact on biodiversity or a negative impact on bio diversity. And um you know, I think this is so important and as I started to learn about it, it heard to me or it's revealed that you know really all of humankind relies on biodiversity and almost every single industry from agriculture to retail to mining and manufacturing all relies on on biodiversity to to to um exist and if we don't take better care of our biodiversity we will all end up dead. So so you're the hack you're to do a hack around because that's a big I think that's maybe we can explore that during the podcast today but I think the the the thing about hacking and I suppose the origins of hacking and understanding where that comes from but then also how we go about answering or trying to answer those problems that's a huge project right knowing the CSI who are involved and when we look at hacking generally I suppose Lee do you where does hacking come from do do you know the origins of hacking or not do I do I have a story for you really yes Yes, I do know. And you're absolutely right, Dan. I didn't want to diminish the like the sustainability impact is amazing that the work they did, but the thing that first of all happened hit me was Beth's a hacker. Beth's now become a hacker. She's kind of got that hat on and she's now joining the tech nerd crowd, which is awesome. Um, so look, yeah, look, I mean, it's funny because we use this word and a lot of us would have probably, you know, think about that. In fact, you go do a Google search on on hacking and 99% of your results will be the negative, like this idea that hacking is bad. Um, and so the one thing that everybody kind of tends to know, Captain Crunch, the uh phone freaking tool about the early '7s, like 1971, um, little whistle appeared in a B box of Captain Crunch cereal in the US. And that whistle happened to be at a particular pitch, which was 2600 hertz, which was exactly the same tone hertz uh, frequency as the AT&T or Bell company as they were back then, telephones. And so you could use this whistle to to get a phone to give you a free phone call. And kind of everyone thinks back to generally that being the first example of hacking. However, however, a little bit of internet research tells me that that's not the first time it was used. So, actually in in the in a uh late late 50s, um the word hacking was recorded and used as a mechanism by a bunch of people in a sorry, we're not getting very cool anymore, the tech model railroad club. Group of people who are um railroad enthusiasts and it was literally used the hacking principle was used as a mechanism to cut through cables that very you know what we think by hacking to cut something which is the first time that the word hacking was used however we go back even further wow in the late 1800s 1878 to be precise a group of boys teenage boys which by the way tells you straight away that teenagers haven't changed in the last hundred years they're still up to no good as much as they can be They were hired by the Bell Telephone Company which is AT&T as we know um to basically uh do ethical hacking to miss to penetrate test their network. They were basically they were hired by them to kind of mess around with telephone calls to see what they were testing the service and the system very early days of telephones and that's considered to be the very first instance of intentional manipulation of a technical system in the way that we might consider to be hacking today. Wow. There you go. Potted history. That is that is potted history of hacking in in in five minutes. That's super. It just reminded me as well of of when I started to introduce concepts of computer science uh when I was in the UK and we were working on the computer science curriculum and teachers are looking for things to do. I think the interesting one was um you know when you start creating projects from the the get-go like say using a micro:bit or a Raspberry Pi, it's quite a high barrier to entry. So what's some of the people in the K were doing some of the professors like Miles Berry and people like that from the University of Hampton, they were doing toy hacking. So there was a concept that you take a toy in to the school or to what whatever event you're in and then you actually take it apart but not to a level that's you know completely in bits. You know you utilize the motors and things that are already there and then you re uh process them to do different things. So you take apart a Furby and try to make the eyes work yourself or add a battery to it and see if you can do that. So, so that that reminded me toy hacking. Well, and and the interesting thing, and I think this gets us back to kind of and I'd love to hear from Beth about kind of what it was like to be in hackathon, which is the event that you were in, Beth, because this was this at at some point in time and and it seemingly seems to be around the late 90s, early 2000s, the word hackathon started to appear and we went from hacking as a negative connotation. I mean, we had, you know, there's always been sort of um, you know, black hat and and and you know white hat hacking but it was this first time and I think it was late n late late 1999 that the somebody devised this idea of a hackathon and it was the idea was in the early days you'd be hacking over a marathon period. So hacking up until that point had been a kind of a get in quick do something and get out mechanism and the idea was that actually we might get more out of hacking if we spent more time doing it. So we kind of applied almost a um a project-based approach to hacking to create the hackathon. I was going to say like agile. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So turned into this. So So look, I mean that's a Beth, back to you. I mean, I want to hear the sustainability stuff's cool, but actually like what was a hackathon like? What did you think it would be like? Was it what you thought it was going in? And um you know, kind of tell us all about it. Yeah, I'd love to. So I I think I put my hand forward. It was mostly out of interest of the subject area as opposed to to you knowing a lot about hackathons and wanting to participate in the process. Um now I would definitely put my hand up to participate in any hackathon. Such was my love of the experience. So I think um you know I was a little bit nervous that we wouldn't get a lot achieved in a short period of time. So Microsoft allocates a certain um I think it's 3 days but it's a 24-hour cycle because you have a global team and so you're you're allocated a period of time. But I was so impressed with the suite of materials in the kit bag that we were given and the um you know the enthusiasm and the willingness to help from colleagues that I had never met before and people from all areas of the business was not only inspiring, it was actually just really humbling to be part of a team of people who really cared about these topics and wanted wanted to do something in their way to make a difference. So I loved that element. Um what I also loved was that everyone came that that we had such diversity in the team that we um we were able to collect. So we had people from the technical parts of our business, people who work in marketing communications and you we had a a professional storyteller from our Irish um office who wanted to to participate, a design experience lead in the US who was able to to add some value. So, we had so many different people representing different parts of our business and none of us are environmental experts by any stretch of the imagination, but we were all able to add value in our own way and that diverse kind of experience and thought process was really really valuable as well. One of the things that I think was a bit of a challenge was just how we managed that 24-hour um hack cycle. And so, So um uh some of our colleagues were trying to stay up late or get up early and keep a continuity of participation across the different um hemispheres and that worked quite well. But I think going forward I' I'd um I'd try and make that effort myself to to do those later night calls or those early morning calls. But it was um you know I think that the structure of the the program development was really effective. And it was, you know, part of an experience. You, yes, we were a smaller team, but we were also participating with hackers right across the globe. And I think we got um nearly 50,000 people within Microsoft participating in the global hack this year. I was also struck by just how many of the topic areas um that the hacks seem to to cover. Um I would say 90% of the those would have some kind of social impact um to them as well. And so you know the other kind of final point was this is really led by example and led by the highest parts of our business. So the the project that we worked on um was an executive challenge and we had executive challenges that tackled um areas such as accessibility, diversity and inclusion, sustainability, um you international development, all kinds of different topics. and to have our senior leaders really champion these topics and ask people from across the Microsoft world to you know volunteer their time to participate. It was just a a brilliant experience and you aside from anything else I've walked away meeting new people within Microsoft learning more about this topic area uh and also you know I I would hope developing my own um professional soft skills in order to to manage projects in a a finite time. So, I had a I had a wonderful um experience and we really hope that through this um contribution that we're able to move this this issue forward um with um with the CSRO. So, time will tell. So, Beth, you kind of alluded there in what you were saying. I mean, the size of it and the fact that it's global. Uh and for our listeners, I think this is part of our global the Microsoft global hackathon which is um it's a huge thing. I mean, as you said, sort of 50,000 people involved in these things. Um, and it's not just Microsoft because you had external people in there, but do you want to like I mean maybe helpful for our listeners to talk a bit about what the Microsoft global hackathon where does it come from? How how does it work? You what's what's how do we do it and how do other people maybe think about doing something like this. Beth, what do you what do you think are some of the things that would you need to put in place to have this kind of program? Yeah, it's it's a really good question, Lee. So, I think um prior So, I'm I'm a bit of a a longtime person at Microsoft. I Boomerang. So I started Micros working for Microsoft nearly 20 years ago um left um after about three or four years and then came back about 5 years ago. So um I I've seen different programs from time to time and I was a little bit ignorant as to what the garage is, but the garage is the initiative behind the scenes. And I know you know a bit more about the garage than than I certainly do, but I think what what they have perfected um as an internal offering is a a set of materials and a tried and tested process through which people can work together to solve problems. And that set of materials I think is invaluable. But what I also observed was um people who have volunteered to be um sort of hack mentors and people who've been through the process several times so that they can support new people into the the process. We also have a number of local hack judges. So um uh I think people who've again been through the process and can identify um you know the the the better projects or you know the most effective um programs hackathons have always you know I've never I've always wondered a little bit about the effectiveness but I think it is really effective to concentrate people's attention and time over a set period. Uh we all have other commitments and getting people to set aside some time, dedicate it and do it as a concentrated activity I think is actually really a valuable thing. So I' I'd suggest that that is um you know those are some of the elements that would be um success make make a program successful. You we again because I'm a Microsoft um boomerang this concept of growth mindset I I must admit when I first heard it I thought it sounded like an episode of Oprah Winfrey um that I' I'd hear about um you know self-development but it is true that people come to this process with a really open mind and ask lots of questions and try to learn as much as they can and that pro you know and and be willing to risk things and try things test things out from each other that rapid iteration and as a tool to encourage other people to adopt this innovative mindset. I I I wonder how effective that could be um if we're able to extend some of these tools um to our customers and partners. But Lee, I know you've been doing a bit of research on the garage. What have you found out from from that work? Yeah, look, it's a fascinating area and I'm I'm bit like you Beth. I'm a I've been here a long time and I've boomerang back in so I got a bit of history in this place and you know I think it's probably fair to say that a lot of people might categorize Microsoft as you know kind of the the old god of technology. We've been here a long time 40 plus years and they sort of see the stories from some of our fellow players in this cloud world has been the innovators and the people that started this and the garage is probably one of those interesting stories that differentiates that and kind of calls that into question. So um look it's for a long time Microsoft's actually had a whole series of these kind of incubator startup kind of rooms and spaces Um but up until the mid2 2000s it was largely productled. It was kind of like you know we're going to have an innovator to do product X or product Y. Um so in 2009 the garage got started and and there's some really good uh kind of commentary from that early days as to what they meant when they started what it was about. I love this one. Um was this idea that um essentially ideas are cheap and they're not valuable. Uh everyone's we got millions of ideas. Prototyping and proving is far more valuable. And so they had this basic the the very first office which was actually open in Redmond campus in 2009 just simply had this principle on the thing on the door that just said um all are welcome doers not talkers and it was this basic idea that you know you come in and you do uh there's no place here for business conversation this is about kind of this idea we want to build and create things and so I think that's kind of you know it got its starting point from that idea and then there was a whole bunch of um uh empowerment across business for people to just go and get involved. In fact, it did actually start out largely as an office thing. It was kind of our back uh research around the office platform. But of course, you know, 2009, early late 2000s, that all started to expand out to the point today where the garage has become this 24 locations around the world, physical places where Microsofties and customers and externals get together, think about just prototyping and solving problems. And it and it works on this sort of very common principle that's well known in the in the um design thinking mechanisms this the ideate process you know you you bring sort of that that passion for an idea uh to the room you build a vision around it you create a scenario for it you and you've you ever seen the sort of the um what do you call it's like the the think the uh what do you call this hourglass the hourglass approach you you start off really big and wide at the bottom with lots of ideas and things on the table you narrow it down to a scenario and an idea and a concept in the narrow and then you start going out to do the build and that's the second half for the thing and and it's quite simple. It works on that principle, but it just seems to work as a I think what keeps it working. I'm interested your feedback, Beth, because you did it virtually is, you know, the garage is about a place. It's about going to a space and having the the tools, the mechanisms, the whiteboards, the prototyping, you know, the the the soldering irons and bits and pieces to do things. How did it work in a virtual way? How do you collaborate and ideulate virtually? Oh, you it's a little bit hard to compare it to a physical experience having not really participated in a physical hackathon other than the fact that I would imagine the pizza um was lacking. Um I kind of associate hackathons with beer and pizza. So um uh you know I I still had a great experience. I didn't feel like it lacked anything necessarily that um a physical interaction would bring. Um, if anything, I felt like it it didn't matter. You we could all be effective in whichever environment we chose to be in in the moment. And I I guess that's the nature of hybrid work now, isn't it? That, you know, experiences are different, but they're not necessarily better or worse for being virtual or face to face. So, um, yeah, I I I would definitely think that um that you may be It's even more inclusive by being a virtual event that the fact that especially if you're having to do it late at night or early in the morning, you don't want to be That's true, isn't it? The the other thing I'd like to ask as well for both of you, I suppose, is you know sometimes these are too techy, right? Um the like when we do Microsoft hackathons or we think about hackathons or when our customers or people are listening to this now, you know, we thinking about hackathons. I did one piece of work with the University Technology of Sydney they've got a faculty of transdisiplinary learning or it's something like that it's got is amazing and they bring people from elsewhere in you know so they bring a lawyer in and a marketing person and somebody from you know all these kinds of different faculties because because so this this is my problem in my mind one is you need people to come in and think about some of these problems and really ideate properly rather than get the the the lens of technology only and jump to conclusions really quickly. But then you also got the issue which we have when we do protay which is our kind of university entrance thing of if people aren't in the domain of technology then they struggle to even think about what you can do you know so you've got almost you almost see the best of both worlds uh you know um what do you think about that lead because um you know there there's there's the people who know and there's the people who don't know and it's about trying to mingle everybody together, I suppose. Well, look, I mean, you're right because I think that's almost the history of the terminology. I mean, when Beth said then, dear pizza, there's this sort of a um I'll use the word, I don't mean it to be in a totally negative way, but there's a bit of a misogyn misogynistic uh pro kind of tech bro kind of thinking around that it is about men doing beyond pizza. But I think Beth, I mean, as you kind of said to me, I mean, you know, you sort of said yourself, it was such a multi-disiplinary group and you're not a technician. yourself. I know you've said that yourself, but you come into this and you can contribute because what you find figure out is that actually building taking ideas and then forming them into uh visions or strategy that can actually be executed takes more than the technology. You know, I think you had said you had a storyteller in the room and you've got, you know, kind of project managers um ad people who just simply advise and direct you in a particular way. It I think it just actually requires all sorts whereas historically and I'm going to I've got a brain tease a question people but historically you know that idea of the the the startup the startup has been about the technology in our industry at least. Yeah. And and to to take that to the next level a little bit well not next level but but when we thinking about things that we've done in schools for example we're younger kids you know where they might not have an idea of the domain or the social problems you know you go you could go to kids I remember when I used to teach and you say right we're going to solve a problem here with Excel or whatever and they'd struggle to come up with some social problems, you know, of how they, you know, because they haven't had, you know, aspects of business, they might not understand personal finance or whatever. So, um, when we've done the the AI for good hackathons, which now come out into Imagine Cup Junior, which we've done multiple, um, uh, sessions on previously in the podcast, the key to it has been to make sure we've got a curriculum that stands up to support people going through that. So, a hackathon isn't just going into a room and kind of going okay well let's ideulate on it. It's about a coming up with that problem like you said but also giving people techniques and tools to say well okay um what are the you know I think with the with the AI for good uh stuff we do with education change makers and the like you know it's very much around um let's think about the problem but let's think about the ethical implications of this let's think about the technologies that are involved let's talk about those technologies let's understand what GPS Bluetooth um and and all these other facial recognition and cognitive services are because without understanding those you can't you struggle to come up with uh ideas or think outside the box a little bit. So I think that structure when we do things with with younger kids and K12 and even in universities to certain extent we've got to scaffold a hackathon. So it's not just sitting around with a pizza. It's about kind of saying well you have to invest that time in in learning during that process and having that constant feedback. back and discussion around well that might work but what what about this or have we thought about this um you know that curriculum part's quite important Dan you mentioned the imag well sorry you mentioned the AI for good and I nearly gave you away there but you know AI AI for good led its way to something really important and I think to you know you're making that point around the fact that it's not always about the technology that big body of work the Imagine Cup that turned into Imagine Cup Junior that you you know very well you talk about that because that wasn't even about building things that was just about ideating on. That's correct. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that was very much I I went in and ran a session with the school last year actually. Um about that actually this year. What was my best the time going? Um but yeah, exactly. It was about them ideating. They didn't even have to touch computers. It was all about ideiating and coming up with those ideas, but also thinking about the implications of those ideas and and what what what impact that would have on society. And then but you'd still need to know about the technology. So there was still an element, you know, that that Cup junior you know and then we've got the full imagine cup which is for university students is is very much uh around ideiating and solutionering some of these projects going through the design thinking process like you mentioned earlier on Lee and then but but you still need that curriculum element to kind of understand well you know what what are these technologies that are available you know whether that's VR AR cloud AI um all of these tools and technologies because otherwise you can't come up with a a solution. You know, my my my final little anecdote is when I used I've mentioned this on the podcast multiple times when I used to teach kids mobile phone design. If you just say to kids, let's develop a mobile phone app that chances are if you don't give them any scaffolding, they come up with a game. When you give them scaffolding and say what what what are available? What services are available in a mobile phone? You know, text messaging, multimedia messaging, internet, GPS, location sensor, accelerometers. Suddenly they realize, you know, and and they come up with better ideas and solutions for the project they've done. So yeah, you know, I love the Imagine Cup Junior. That'll be opening up again next year um academic year in Australia and uh you know, in January, February time for for those people in the Northern Hemisphere as well. So that's exciting project to run with. So if I think about sort of rounding this not not to wrap things up, but to round it up into some like how do you how do you move forward? because it's amazing as Beth talked about amazing opportunity to to learn from it. It's it doesn't require to be a technician. Anybody can do it. Um but I think you know as the point you made there Danny you can't just sort of go okay let's have a hackathon and we'll all just go build something because you'll end up with you know the Homer Simpson car for example or or as you say mobile phone game best car. It's a great car. Um so you kind of need to build. So I think one of the learnings we're probably all agreeing on is that you know you need to give enough guidance to make sure there's a direction but not so much guidance as you tell people. what to do. Uh that's probably one of the key things. Anything else you think would be good learnings between the two of you for anyone thinking about setting up or running a hackathon or event of their own? But for K12 to do that first while bet's thinking there is easy for K12 because we've got an Australian kit and a New Zealand kit and a global kit that you can download from our Imagine Cup Junior website which has got lesson plans in there and it's got structure uh to it. So, you know, that gives you everything you need if you if you're teaching in K12. even in university level. Um but but that again though is is sort of limited. You sort of controlling it a bit more. I keen to think about like learn from you Beth and what you've you've experienced. Well, you know, I think like any good um problem you you've got to start with the problem first. So this isn't a a hack to um have technology find a solution or an application to be to be used, but to to to you start with the problem. Um, one thing that I was amazed to find out a couple of weeks ago is that we also have a global hackathon for our partner community around the sustainable development goals um the STGS which are leading up to 2030. So this is something you know again Microsoft is the organization that keeps giving in in terms of all these different programs and activities that we have underway but it's you there cannot get any more complex or ambitious goals than the sustainable development goals. So they are starting with a set of these these goals and they're saying demonstrate how technology can help the world move towards achieving these goals. So it's not technology for its own sake but it's technology that can be used to solve a particular problem. So for me I think that's where you start. You you take the the challenge and it needs to you need to be solving a particular problem because otherwise it's it's not it's not effective. Um but definitely I think the fact that you can use this as a as a an inclusive experience that welcomes people with lots of different experience levels, lots of different perspectives. You know, the lived experience of people who might have had this challenge before I think is really important. And it's a it's you know it's a stealth mission to actually teach people about technology as well. So you know you walk away learn having learned a bunch of new technology skills. as well as um you know problem solving skills but there's not a barrier to entry um that is imposed by a lack of tech skills which I think is um is the thing that makes it as inclusive as it has been for me. That's a really good point and um trying to capture all this in my head and there's one last thing I wanted to add to it but you know if we think about the fact then that it is um you know it's it's uh it takes all sorts and all different types of backgrounds. It's not just about tech people and and that it's it requires some direction but not so much direction that you kind of force an outcome or you create a you know pred predetermined outcome. And then the last thing I was thinking about Beth as you were talking then is it's also it's not something to do with it's not a tech industry thing. It's not like it seems to be a you know it's quite attached to it. We always think it's a tech thing but you can do financial services hacks, you could do age care hacks, you could be doing educ I mean everything has this idea that with enough people and in a room or in a space thinking through the problems and being free to bounce ideas you create that kind of um that opportunity. So it's it's also about trying to do something right, isn't it? So I in my role I'm working with CIOS all the time and I think there's just it's definitely a sea change now when people are implementing large problems and not implementing problems solutions to fit the problem. You know you you there are there are there's a big view to kind of get something quickly out of this. Now, you know, the agile development methodologies taken off quite a bit obviously over the last couple of years, but but people are now really want to try to find rather than see something and then kind of fix a bit like we doing from Microsoft with lots of our products, you know, we put things in and then uh see how it goes, you know, because rather get things out there um not necessarily, you know, testing everything, but just getting the solution to market quickly is really really important. Yeah, it's and what's interesting you said there, Dan, about you know the sort of the speed of it. I mean one of the one of the things that a hack hack mentality or or a growth mindset mentality or agile mentality or however you want to sort of frame and word it creates for you is speed of innovation. It actually lets better ideas bubble up and you have a sort of a self-norming process where as a group the best idea tends to bubble up to the top. So I think there's a lot to be said for it as a way to it's not to be frightened to be scared of I think there's a people get scared of this idea that you know bad ideas will persist or What's the one the uh I think it was in the UK uh that the naming of a boat they wanted to call it and they call boat face. You know when you give consensus to everybody you get silly answers. That's not it's a great name for a boat. We should have had it. But anyway, I wonder if uh if there's if it's too late to rename the bureau um through collective uh that collective very topical the What was your brain teaser earlier on Lee before we end? Ah well yes I forgot to ask you something, but I have a question for you. So, what do the following five companies have in common? Google, Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, and Dell. I'll give you a minute to think about it, but the clue is in the entire episode. Wow. Anyone want to take a stab? Do we develop technology around? Oh, no. No. I still do hackathons, right? We're all largely tech companies. That is true unfortunately but that was the area of my knowledge. It's the reason why the garage is called the garage because all five of those companies were started in garages. A right that's amazing. I I actually do know Microsoft Australia was um operated out of somebody's garage for the first few years as well. So even when we were up in the US, we still kind of maintained that garage experience. But isn't that that's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure there are actually non tech companies. I just happen to know the the tech ones cuz you know tech nerd. Um and and but if you ever get the chance I've done it I was over in the US and I I wanted to go to the Apple the house in in um Certino where Apple was started and you but you drive past it but it's actually someone's private house now. Of course there are police on that road and if you stop the police will stop you. So we drove past at slow speed as I could and my wife was driving and I lent out the car with my camera went on my phone actually and got a couple of pictures. So I uh I do have a picture of it. Can I can I ask one question? I know we've coming up to time now, Lee, but you mentioned in one of the last episodes you got a Surface Duo 2 and you put that on because you were going on a trip. How did you manage with that device in the end? Did you love it? Oh, I do have a Surface Duo 2 for those of you who don't know. Again, this is a really interesting one. Not a hack outcome, but a Microsoft Android device. You know, one of those things that probably came out of that kind of idea thinking where we go, yeah, hey, Why not? Um, look, it's a great device. Amazing for traveling. Um, small, portable, great experience, particularly for Teams calls and that kind of thing. You know, it's big enough for you to be able to actually use the keyboard. For me personally, I'm still jarring getting my head around the jar experience of moving from an Apple ecosystem to an Android ecosystem. But as a as a device, uh, 100% like perfect for traveling. Cool. That's good. Like a bit of an ending around the hot ending. Yeah. Well, thanks everybody today as great to learn about all the hackathons and uh you know, we put some uh notes in the show notes for everybody to read from, but uh thanks again Beth for your insights. I love that CSIro hack. That sounds phenomenal. Hopefully we see more of the the fruits of that labor actually coming out soon. And uh thanks again Lee as always for sharing your uh thoughts on the garage and the history of hacking. Yep. Pleasure. Brilliant. Thanks guys. Thanks guys.