The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Rutger Bregman’s utopias, and mine

Jul 22, 2019

Join Rutger Bregman, a Dutch historian and journalist acclaimed for his work on utopian ideas, as he dives into radical concepts like universal basic income and a 15-hour work week. He challenges the notion of human selfishness, advocating for a shift towards optimism and trust in our societal systems. Bregman explores how these utopian visions can redefine the essence of work, elevate care value, and reshape perspectives on immigration. His insightful provocations encourage us to think boldly about a better future and what it truly means to be human.

01:32:19

Episode guests

Rutger Bregman

AI Chapters

Episode notes

Intro

2min

Envisioning Utopia: The Power of Hope and Trust

20min

Reimagining Work with Universal Basic Income

22min

Exploring Keynes's Vision of a Shorter Work Week

4min

Exploring Meaning and Creativity in a Future Art Landscape

2min

Reimagining Work and Public Art

13min

Valuing Care Work

7min

The Art of Immigration and Society

18min

Influential Books Shaping Thought on Society and Innovation

2min

10.

Imagining a Broader Utopia

2min

Universal basic income. A 15-hour work week. Open borders.

These ideas may strike you as crazy, fantastical, maybe even utopian... but that’s exactly the point.

My guest today is Dutch historian Rutger Bregman, whose book Utopia for Realists is not only about utopian visions but about the importance of utopian thinking. Imagining utopia, he writes, “isn’t an attempt to predict the future. It’s an attempt to unlock the future. To fling open the windows of our minds.”

He’s right. And so this isn’t just a conversation about his utopia, or mine. It’s a conversation about how to think like a utopian, and why doing so matter most when the days feel particularly dystopic.

Citations:

The Lost Boys by Gina Perry

"Socially Useless Jobs" by Robert Dur and Max van Lent

"Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren" by John Maynard Keynes

"I was a fast-food worker. Let me tell you about burnout." by Emily Guendelsberger

Book Recommendations:

Bullshit Jobs and Debt by David Graeber

A Paradise Built in Hell by Rebecca Solnit

The Entrepreneurial State by Mariana Mazzucato

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