Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast)

May 16, 2024

01:35:16

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Jag Duggal, CPO at Nubank, discusses building a fanatical user base, driving word-of-mouth growth, measuring customer love, strategic clarity, and the importance of being fundamentally different. He shares Nubank's vision for an AI-powered banking future.

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Quick takeaways

Nubank prioritizes being fundamentally different over incremental improvements in its product offerings.

Customer-centric product development is central to Nubank's strategy with a focus on creating fanatical customers.

Newbank emphasizes the importance of customer feedback and validation through innovative product development processes.

Deep dives

Newbank's Approach to Growth

Newbank has experienced massive growth, surpassing industry giants like Coinbase and Robinhood. The company attributes 80 to 90% of its growth to word of mouth referrals. Instead of aiming for marginal improvements, Newbank strives to be fundamentally different in its offerings, focusing on creating a unique customer experience. The company has diversified its product portfolio, including lending, investments, insurance, and small business services. Newbank emphasizes data-driven decision-making, only scaling projects once they meet specific success metrics.

Company values for Success

00:41

Building the Strategy Muscle as a Team

00:47

Have a Hypothesis -A Point of View

01:53

Valuing Expressiveness and Anecdotal Insights

00:51

Introduction

5min

Building Customer Love and Product Excellence at Nubank

17min

Optimizing Customer Payments and Engaging Product Managers

21min

Navigating CSV Data Mess with OneSkema and Strategic Thinking Insights

2min

Building a Fundamental Strategy for Business Success

29min

Navigating Turbulent Waters in the Advertising Industry

12min

Embracing Unconventional Paths

5min

Smuggling Mangos and Airport Watch Lists: A Mango Lover's Tale

3min

Wrap-up and Invitation to Join a Revolutionary Banking Initiative

3min

Jag Duggal is chief product officer at Nubank, a decacorn neobank founded in Brazil. It’s valued at over $30 billion, is bigger than Coinbase, Robinhood, Affirm, and SoFi combined, has 100 million customers (more than Bank of America!) while only operating in three countries in Latin America, and 80% to 90% of its growth comes through word of mouth. Prior to Nubank, Jag was a director of product management at Facebook, a senior vice president at Quantcast, and a product leader at Google. In our conversation, we discuss:

• How Nubank builds a fanatical user base

• Tactics for driving word-of-mouth growth

• Measuring customer love through the Sean Ellis score

• The importance of strategic clarity

• The role of category design in creating successful products

• Why companies should strive to be “fundamentally different,” not “incrementally better”

• Nubank’s vision for an AI-powered banking future

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Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/be-fundamentally-different-jag-duggal

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Where to find Jag Duggal:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jagduggal/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Jag’s background

(04:34) Nubank’s remarkable achievements

(06:01) Nubank’s product development process

(11:23) Nubank’s values

(12:16) Building products people love fanatically

(15:21) The Sean Ellis score

(21:27) An example project using the Sean Ellis score

(25:07) Picking up the phone and calling customers

(28:20) The importance of starting small and iterating

(30:42) Pushing back effectively

(34:10) Uncovering pain points through customer research

(37:53) An example of setting a clear hypothesis

(42:01) Developing a strategy

(52:16) “Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better”

(53:10) Category design

(57:37) Nubank’s founding story and goals for the future

(01:00:46) Advice for adding new product lines

(01:03:46) The future of fintech and banking

(01:09:23) AI corner

(01:12:34) Failure corner

(01:20:24) Key takeaways

(01:22:11) Lightning round

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Referenced:

• Nubank: https://nubank.com.br/en/

• Coinbase: https://www.coinbase.com/

• Robinhood: https://www.robinhood.com/

• SoFi: https://www.sofi.com/

• Affirm: https://www.affirm.com/

• Lemonade: https://www.lemfi.com/

• Bank of America: https://www.bankofamerica.com/

• Nubank achieves a world record with more than 7 million people participating in NuBolão in one month: https://building.nubank.com.br/nubank-achieves-world-record-with-nubolao

• Nu México carries out first financial transaction 20 meters under the depth of the sea: https://www.bnamericas.com/en/news/nu-mexico-carries-out-first-financial-transaction-20-meters-under-the-depth-of-the-sea

• David Vélez on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-v%C3%A9lez-1004875

• Cristina Junqueira on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/crisjunqueira

• Edward Wible on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamedwardwible

• Sequoia Capital: https://www.sequoiacap.com/

• Churrascaria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churrascaria

• Nubank’s real foundation: our culture and values: https://building.nubank.com.br/nubank-culture-and-values/

• Working Backwards Press Release Template and Example: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/working-backwards-press-release-template-example-ian-mcallister/

• Sean Ellis test: https://productcoalition.com/using-sean-ellis-test-for-measuring-your-product-market-fit-c8ac98053c2c

• How to know if you’ve got product-market fit: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-know-if-youve-got-productmarket

• Reid Hoffman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/reidhoffman/

• Ultravioleta: Nubank expands its premium card offer and adds new features on the product’s first anniversary: https://international.nubank.com.br/company/ultravioleta-nubank-expands-its-premium-card-offer-and-adds-new-features-on-the-products-first-anniversary/

• Jeff Bezos: Amazon and Blue Origin | Lex Fridman Podcast #405: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcWqzZ3I2cY

• The Innovation Method Behind Swiffer Madness: https://www.fastcompany.com/3006797/innovation-method-behind-swiffer-madness

• Kevin Systrom on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinsystrom/

• Good Strategy, Bad Strategy | Richard Rumelt: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/good-strategy-bad-strategy-richard

• Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The Difference and Why It Matters: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-Bad-Difference-Matters/dp/0307886239

• The Crux: How Leaders Become Strategists: https://www.amazon.com/Crux-How-Leaders-Become-Strategists/dp/1541701240/

• How to become a category pirate | Christopher Lochhead (author of Play Bigger, Niche Down, Category Pirates, more): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-become-a-category-pirate-christopher

• Play Bigger: How Pirates, Dreamers, and Innovators Create and Dominate Markets: https://www.amazon.com/Play-Bigger-Dreamers-Innovators-Dominate/dp/0062407619

• Playing to Win: How Strategy Really Works: https://www.amazon.com/Playing-Win-Strategy-Really-Works/dp/142218739X

• A framework for finding product-market fit | Todd Jackson (First Round Capital): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-framework-for-finding-product-market

• Citi: https://www.citi.com/

• Santander Bank: https://www.santanderbank.com/

• Fidji Sumo on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fidjisimo/

• Harvard Kennedy School: https://www.hks.harvard.edu/

• Susan Wojcicki on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susan-wojcicki-b136a99/

• Coldplay—“Lost+” ft. Jay-Z: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkCDRm_YRFg

• Google Buys DoubleClick for $3.1 Billion: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/14/technology/14DoubleClick.html

• Real-time bidding: https://support.google.com/authorizedbuyers/answer/6136272

• From Third World to First: The Singapore Story: 1965-2000: https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-First-Singapore-1965-2000/dp/0060197765/