Ep274: Poetry & the Sacred - Henry Shukman & John Brehm
Oct 4, 2024
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In this engaging dialogue, Henry Shukman, a British poet and Zen teacher, and John Brehm, an American poet, explore how poetry intersects with spirituality. They share their journeys into poetry, discussing the transformative power of words and the sacred moments they evoke. The conversation dives into how poetry can illuminate the ordinary, offer solace during difficult times, and act as a bridge to higher inspiration. They also perform several of their poems, revealing the emotional depth that nature, grief, and connection to the sacred bring to their work.
Poetry serves as a spiritual practice that enhances our connection to the sacred, evoking a heightened sense of aliveness.
Both poets emphasize how their distinct backgrounds shaped their journeys, revealing the transformative power of poetry in their lives.
The dialogue illustrates that poetry not only interrupts daily routines but also fosters deeper understanding and empathy in society.
Deep dives
The Spiritual Nature of Poetry
Poetry is described as a spiritual practice that fosters a deeper connection between individuals and the world around them. Both poets emphasize that writing and reading poetry is a means of engaging with the sacred, helping individuals to tap into a heightened sense of aliveness and intuitive understanding. This engagement is contrasted with traditional spiritual practices like mindfulness and Zen, suggesting that poetry itself can serve as an immediate point of contact with the extraordinary aspects of existence. The conversation reveals how poetry can illuminate truths about reality and provoke profound emotional and spiritual responses in both the writer and the reader.
Personal Experiences with Poetry
Henry and John share their formative experiences with poetry, illustrating how early encounters with the art form sparked a lifelong passion for writing. Henry recounts his epiphany while observing a familiar scene outside his window, leading to a moment of creative inspiration that felt vibrantly alive. John's path into poetry emerges from a contrasting background, where he sought meaning and connection amidst a pragmatic, working-class environment devoid of artistic influence. This shared journey reveals how both poets found solace and purpose in poetry, serving as a counterbalance to their disparate life experiences and struggles.
The Role of the Poet
The discussion highlights the unique role of the poet as both an artist and a conduit for creative expression. Both poets reflect on the impact of their surroundings and the influence of other writers, asserting that the true magic of poetry often arises unexpectedly from their interactions with everyday life. They recognize that composer or audience are less significant in the moment of creation; instead, the focus is on the authenticity of the expression itself. This leads to a revelation that the act of writing is much more about self-discovery and connection than merely pleasing an audience or adhering to external standards.
Poetry and Mindfulness
The dialogue navigates the relationship between poetry and mindfulness, positing that poetry can evoke moments of awareness that interrupt the routine flow of daily life. Both poets argue that the essence of poetry is not simply a tool for mindfulness, but a rich artistic form that encapsulates profound human experience and emotional depth. This contrasts with the formulaic approach to mindfulness that has emerged in contemporary society, where the essence of reconnecting with one’s true self may become diluted. Poetry serves not only as a pathway to mindfulness but also as a celebratory expression of life's complexities, holding the potential to foster deeper understanding and appreciation of existence.
The Impact of Poetry on the Individual and Society
Henry and John explore how poetry has the power to influence both personal hearts and broader societal consciousness. They discuss the notion that while a single poem may not change the world, it can initiate a shift in perspective, leading to deeper empathy and understanding. Through their shared understanding of poetry's purpose, they convey that these written works can serve as reflections of our shared humanity, resonating with individuals in times of struggle and joy alike. This connection further underscores the necessity of cultivating a cultural appreciation for poetry as a vital means of communication and transformation in society.
In this episode I host a dialogue between Henry Shukman, British poet, Zen teacher, and author of ‘One Blade of Grass; a Zen memoir’; and John Brehm, American poet and author of ‘The Dharma of Poetry’.
Henry and John share the story of their formations as poets, compare the similarities as well as the marked differences in their backgrounds, and reveal the powerful forces that inspire the creative process.
Henry and John discuss the purpose and process of writing poetry, reflect on poetry as a means of contact with the sacred, and contrast the richness of poetry with attentional practices such as mindfulness and Zen.
Henry and John also perform and discuss several of their poems, including “Walk the Talk”, “Swifts”, “Yahrzeit”, and “Finis Ter”.
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Video version: https://www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep274-poetry-the-sacred-henry-shukman-john-brehm
Also available on Youtube, iTunes, & Spotify – search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.
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Topics include:
00:00 - Intro
00:56 - Henry’s early interest in poetry
03:45 - Poetry and spiritual practice
06:04 - What is it to be alive?
06:30 - Searching for the charge
06:51 - First profound experience of writing poetry
08:17 - Poetry that awakes
09:25 - John’s unliterary family background
12:00 - John’s psychedelic experiences in the 1970s
13:23 - Poetry as a way to evoke luminosity
14:37 - Contact with the sacred
15:11 - Henry reflects on John’s early life
15:57 - Henry’s unusual parents
17:23 - Inner freedom and childhood trauma
18:01 - Imagist and Tang dynasty poets
20:08 - The Beat poet and a different way of living
20:54 - Intimacy and rediscovering landscape
22:26 - Seeing beauty in the ordinary and discarded
24:41 - It’s about quality of attention
26:01 - Attracted to the neglected
29:25 - The curse of being a public poet
30:09 - No allies and no encouragement
32:01 - John’s first poetry teacher
33:08 - The audience
34:40 - Poetry only works without purpose
35:32 - Recognising the false note
36:54 - Henry’s process of composition and revision
38:24 - Great poets of the past as audience
39:43 - A R Ammons an writing for an audience
40:20 - Henry’s dream for his poetry
41:52 - The chore of mindfulness
43:09 - Remembering your True Self
43:31 - The sacred pause
44:28 - Temporary enlightenment
45:31 - Poetry is richer than mindfulness
47:28 - Beauty beyond mere mindfulness
49:28- Focusing on what you love
49:59 - Using language to go beyond language
50:54 - Autopoiesis and memetic fulfilment
53:25 - Poet as conduit
55:32 - Radical awakening
57:00 - Banishing the beautiful
58:13 - Seamus Heaney on poetry as redress
59:24 - Collective awakening of consciousness
01:00:20 - Reciprocity and post-medieval alienation
01:01:20 - Hospicing modernity
01:02:30 - Why publish poems?
01:04:27 - John reads “Walk the Talk”
01:06:03 - Reflecting on success as poets
01:09:08 - John reads “Swifts”
01:12:48 - Henry reads “Yahrzeit”
01:18:22 - Henry reads “Finis Ter”
01:19:26 - Appreciation and gratitude
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Previous episodes with Henry Shukman:
- https://www.guruviking.com/search?q=shukman
Previous episode with John Brehm:
- https://www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep230-the-dharma-of-poetry-john-brehm
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Find out more about Henry Shukman:
- https://henryshukman.com/
- http://thewayapp.com/
Find out more about John Brehm:
- https://www.johnbrehmpoet.com/
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For more interviews, videos, and more visit:
- https://www.guruviking.com
Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James
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