Gideon talks to Karin von Hippel, director-general of the UK defence think-tank RUSI, about Ukraine’s counteroffensive and the discussions that are already taking place about a new world order once the fighting is over. Clips: Channel 4 News
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Presented by Gideon Rachman. Produced by Fiona Symon. Sound design is by Breen Turner
Read a transcript of this episode on FT.com
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