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Brad Stulberg Talks About Sustainable Excellence, Mastery, and Doing What Truly Matters

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Jan 28, 2026

Guest

Brad Stulberg

Brad Stulberg, author and researcher on sustainable excellence and mastery, joins to reclaim excellence from hustle culture. He contrasts true excellence with performative pseudo-excellence. He debates metrics, flow versus values-driven work, and why process and small routines beat shortcuts. He also explores gumption, trade-offs, and how focused effort leads to lasting satisfaction.

40:24

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insights

INSIGHT

Efficiency’s Short-Term Allure

We prioritize efficiency because it's easy to measure and gives quick rewards.
Short-term efficiency often undermines long-term excellence.

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ADVICE

Make Metrics Serve You

Ask whether you're working for the metrics or the metrics are working for you.
Use measures that hold you accountable and ditch those that outlive their usefulness.

insights

INSIGHT

From Metrics To Feeling

Mastery moves from conscious competence to unconscious competence where metrics matter less.
Peak performance often requires feeling, not strictly following external measures.

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Why Brad Wrote The Way of Excellence

00:42 • 2min

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Relaxed Productivity Versus Efficiency

02:50 • 3min

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Defining True Excellence vs. Pseudo-Excellence

05:57 • 3min

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When Metrics Help — And When They Harm

09:18 • 4min

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Flow, Shitty Flow, and Values-Aligned Work

13:30 • 4min

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Process Mindset: Breaking Big Goals Down

17:40 • 3min

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Why the Work, Not the Shortcut, Fulfills Us

20:50 • 5min

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Trade-Offs, Optimization, and Mattering

25:29 • 2min

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Gumption: Building Inner Momentum

27:52 • 3min

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Routines vs. Rituals: Keep It Minimal

30:40 • 4min

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Deep Focus Blocks and Little Gains

• Mentioned in 131 episodes

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Robert Pirsig

This classic novel by Robert M. Pirsig is a personal and philosophical odyssey that delves into the author's search for meaning. The narrative follows a father and his son on a summer motorcycle trip from the Midwest to California, intertwining a travelogue with deep philosophical discussions. The book explores the concept of 'quality' and how it informs a well-lived life, reconciling science, religion, and humanism. It also touches on the author's own struggles with his past and his philosophical quest, making it a touching and transcendent exploration of human experience and endeavor.

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• Mentioned in 16 episodes

What I Talk About When I Talk About Running

Haruki Murakami

In this memoir, Haruki Murakami reflects on his experiences with long-distance running and how it has influenced his writing. He started running in the early 1980s and has since completed over twenty marathons and an ultramarathon. The book delves into the parallels between running and writing, highlighting the discipline, perseverance, and mental fortitude required for both. Murakami shares his training regimens, memorable races, and the philosophical insights he has gained from his running experiences, which have significantly impacted his creative life.

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• Mentioned in 16 episodes

Lila

An Inquiry Into Morals

Robert Pirsig

In 'Lila: An Inquiry into Morals', Robert M. Pirsig continues his philosophical journey from 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'. The story follows Phaedrus, Pirsig's alter ego, as he sails down the Hudson River and encounters Lila, a woman struggling with mental health issues and a chaotic life. The book delves into Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality, distinguishing between static and dynamic quality, and explores themes such as morality, the interaction between intellectual and social patterns, and the critique of Western civilization's binary thinking. Through Lila's tumultuous life, Pirsig examines whether individuals who embody dynamic quality can be considered morally good, and whether moral value is static or dynamic.

#1798

• Mentioned in 22 episodes

The Way of Excellence

Brad Stulberg

#1013

• Mentioned in 34 episodes

The Practice of Groundedness

A Transformative Path to Success That Feeds--Not Crushes--Your Soul

Brad Stulberg

In this book, Brad Stulberg presents a healthier model for success that counters the 'always-on' hustle culture. Groundedness, the central concept, values presence over productivity, accepts nonlinear progress, and prioritizes long-term fulfillment. The book interweaves case studies, modern science, and ancient wisdom from Buddhism, Stoicism, and Taoism to teach readers how to cultivate a more grounded life. Key practices include accepting where you are, being present, developing patience, embracing vulnerability, building deep community, and focusing on the process rather than outcomes.

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• Mentioned in 47 episodes

The Score Takes Care of Itself

My Philosophy of Leadership

Bill Walsh

This book provides insights into Bill Walsh's philosophy of leadership, gleaned from his successful career as the head coach and general manager of the San Francisco 49ers. Walsh stresses the importance of creating a strong culture, setting high standards, and thorough preparation. He advocates for leaders to focus on the process rather than the outcome, emphasizing that 'the score takes care of itself' when the right principles are applied. The book also touches on Walsh's personal struggles and the toll of relentless pressure, highlighting the importance of maintaining a balance between work and personal life. It offers practical advice on leadership, applicable not only in sports but also in business and other fields.

This week on A Productive Conversation, I sit down with Brad Stulberg, author of The Way of Excellence, to explore what excellence really means in a world obsessed with efficiency, optimization, and performative productivity. Brad has spent years studying sustainable excellence across sport, leadership, creativity, and life—and this conversation digs into why excellence is neither perfection nor hustle, but something far more human.

Brad and I unpack the difference between true excellence and what he calls “pseudo-excellence,” why metrics often outlive their usefulness, and how habits like routine, curiosity, and gumption play a central role in meaningful progress. Along the way, we explore why satisfaction outlasts happiness, why flow isn’t always the goal, and how focusing on the task at hand—not the time on hand—changes everything.

Six Discussion Points

Why excellence must be reclaimed from hustle culture, optimization, and perfectionism
The difference between efficiency and excellence—and why short-term efficiency often undermines long-term growth
Metrics, mastery, and knowing when measures help—or get in the way
Flow versus values-driven excellence (and why not all flow is good)
Gumption, routines, and building momentum without becoming robotic
Why satisfaction comes from effort on worthwhile work, not outcomes alone

Three Connection Points

The Way of Excellence by Brad Stulberg
The Growth Equation (Blog Posts)
Listen to Brad's previous appearance on APC

This conversation is a reminder that excellence isn’t about doing more—it’s about doing what matters with care, patience, and intention. Brad’s work offers a compelling counterpoint to the constant pressure to optimize everything, and instead invites us to pursue a more grounded, values-aligned version of success—one that shapes us as much as the work itself.

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