The Incerto Podcast

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Rory Sutherland | Talebian Thinking Applied To Marketing

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Oct 1, 2024

Guest

Rory Sutherland

Rory Sutherland is a behavioral scientist and Ogilvy Group executive, renowned for merging behavioral science with marketing insights. In this lively discussion, he connects the dots between Salman Rushdie's writing and the golden rules of marketing. Rory explores fat-tailed marketing strategies and the importance of concise communication. He highlights the complexities of subscription services and their hidden commitments, as well as the intriguing concept of costly signaling in marketing. The conversation also touches on mimetic desire in consumer behavior and the unexpected benefits of embracing serendipity.

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ANECDOTE

Copywriting and Literature

Salman Rushdie, Faye Weldon, and Don DeLillo were copywriters at Ogilvy.
Copywriting provides aspiring authors with financial stability and writing discipline.

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ADVICE

Writing Tips

Write in short, digestible paragraphs to make your writing more accessible.
Consider recording your own audiobook to add emotion and riff.

insights

INSIGHT

Video Conferencing's Importance

Video conferencing bridges the gap between asynchronous text and in-person meetings.
It offers flexibility and cost-effectiveness compared to physical meetings.

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Words that Sell: Writers in Advertising

01:39 • 9min

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Rethinking Advertising and Subscription Services

10:24 • 2min

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The Price of Communication: Costly Signaling Explained

12:06 • 5min

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Exploring Alternative Smoking Solutions

16:52 • 4min

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Navigating Energy Adoption Challenges

21:02 • 7min

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Mimetic Desire in Consumer Behavior

28:04 • 26min

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Embracing Serendipity

The novel tells the story of Saleem Sinai, who is born at the stroke of midnight on August 15, 1947, the moment of India's independence from British rule. Saleem's life is intricately linked with the history of India, and he possesses telepathic powers that allow him to communicate with other 'midnight children' born between 12 a. m. and 1 a. m. on that date. Each of these children has unique magical powers, and Saleem acts as a conduit to connect them. The story spans various historical events in India, including the partition, wars, and the Emergency declared by Indira Gandhi. It explores themes of identity, history, and the fragmented nature of a newly independent nation.

Alchemy

The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business and Life

Rory Sutherland

In this book, Rory Sutherland explores the art and science of creating magic in brands, business, and life. He combines scientific research with entertaining stories and case studies from his career, including campaigns for AmEx and Microsoft. Sutherland emphasizes the importance of understanding human behavior, highlighting how decisions are often influenced by subtle external signals rather than objective qualities. The book challenges traditional marketing strategies by advocating for a more holistic and creative approach, using techniques such as storytelling, social proof, and framing to influence consumer decisions. It also explores how these principles can be applied to various social aims beyond just selling products.

The Status Game

Will Storr

The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck

Mark Manson

In this book, Mark Manson argues against the typical self-help advice of constant positivity, instead suggesting that life's struggles give it meaning. He emphasizes the need to focus on what truly matters and to accept and confront painful truths. The book is divided into nine chapters and uses blunt honesty and profanity to illustrate its ideas, encouraging readers to find meaning through values they can control and to replace uncontrollable values with more meaningful ones.

Wanting

The Power of Mimetic Desire in Everyday Life

Luke Burgis

In 'Wanting: The Power of Mimetic Desire in Everyday Life,' Luke Burgis delves into the concept of mimetic desire, which is the tendency to imitate the desires of others. Drawing on the work of René Girard, Burgis explains how our desires are mediated by models and how this can lead to rivalry, conflict, and unfulfilling pursuits. The book distinguishes between 'thin' desires, which are superficial and mimetic, and 'thick' desires, which are deeper and more lasting. Burgis provides tactics for identifying and transforming these desires, such as creating a hierarchy of values, finding sources of wisdom that withstand mimesis, and practicing empathy. The book aims to help readers gain control over their desires and find more meaning in their lives by making intentional choices rather than blindly following mimetic forces.

Traffic

Why We Drive the Way We Do (and What It Says About Us)

Tom Vanderbilt

Based on exhaustive research and interviews with driving experts and traffic officials around the globe, Traffic delves into the complex web of factors that explain how traffic works, why we drive the way we do, and what our driving says about us. Vanderbilt examines perceptual limits, cognitive underpinnings, and the unintended consequences of safety measures. He discusses topics such as the safety benefits of roundabouts, the formation of traffic jams, and the common mistakes drivers make in parking lots.

The Psychology of Money

Timeless Lessons on Wealth, Greed, and Happiness

Morgan Housel

In 'The Psychology of Money,' Morgan Housel delves into the psychological and emotional aspects of financial decisions. The book consists of 19 short stories that illustrate how personal history, worldview, emotions, and biases influence financial outcomes. Housel emphasizes the importance of behavior over knowledge in managing money, highlighting the power of compounding, the dangers of greed, and the pursuit of happiness beyond mere wealth accumulation. He advocates for a frugal lifestyle, long-term perspective, and a balanced approach to investing, stressing that financial success is more about mindset and discipline than about technical financial knowledge.

Deceit and Self-Deception

Robert Trivers

In 'The Folly of Fools', Robert Trivers explores the evolutionary reasons behind self-deception, arguing that it evolved to better deceive others. The book delves into various examples from biology, psychology, and history to illustrate how self-deception plays a significant role in human behavior. Trivers discusses how self-deception can lead to both personal and societal consequences, impacting areas such as relationships, politics, and war.

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✍︎: The Curious Worldview Newsletter - the ultimate compliment to the podcast...

I am stoked to welcome back one of the most out there and interesting writers, thinkers and speakers, Rory Sutherland.

He founded the behavioural science team at the Ogilvy group, he is one of Europe’s most powerful advertising executives and author many many books and articles, his most recent book, Alchemy, coming highly recommended and is a treatise on how great marketing ideas are built around the profoundly irrational… Rory appeared once before on this podcast in episode 115.

And today, for his second appearance I was lucky enough to do this with Rory in person, I got the train out of London to Rory’s hometown and we settled up in the courtyard of a beautiful little cafe in the sun. And so, you get the ambience of birds and wind to frame the conversation.

There are no timestamps on this podcast today, because with Rory’s erudition there is unseen flow from one thought to another that makes a narrow subject timestamp non suitable, rather, consume this one in full, we open with Salman Rushdie and his days as a copywriter to Rory reflecting on his recent notoriety, a powerful insight that the best marketing is in fact fat tailed, behind the scenes of his Rick Rubin interview all the way to me asking Rory whether he’s ever done a floaty.

Other episode of the podcast that suit this episode...

Rory Sutherland – First Appearance #115
Scott Patterson – Chaos Kings
Nassim Taleb & Incerto Podcast

Follow me on Instagram – @ryanfhogg

🍻☕: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ryanhogg

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