The Tim Ferriss Show

chevron_right

#821: My Two-Year Secret Project, COYOTE — The Strategies and Tactics for Building a Bestseller from Nothing with Elan Lee of Exploding Kittens

whatshot 684 snips

Aug 6, 2025

Guest

Elan Lee

Elan Lee, co-creator and CEO of Exploding Kittens, shares his journey in game design, revealing insights from his childhood to the creation of the card game COYOTE. He discusses the significance of collaboration and the creative process in developing the game, blending classic mechanics with unique strategies. Lee emphasizes the importance of community feedback and effective marketing in launching successful games, alongside challenges faced in distribution and retail strategies. Tune in for an engaging look at innovation within the competitive gaming industry!

03:00:23

forum

Ask episode

web_stories

AI Snips

view_agenda

Chapters

menu_book

Books

auto_awesome

Transcript

info_circle

Episode notes

00:00 / 00:00

Tim's D&D Inspired Game Dream

Tim Ferriss shares how Dungeons and Dragons shaped his childhood and desire to create immersive games.
He kept his original D&D modules and dice as a nostalgic treasure.

00:00 / 00:00

Two-Minute Learn Rule

Aim for games that are quick to learn and play: two minutes to learn, fifteen to play.
This low-stakes format encourages repeated sessions and broad appeal.

00:00 / 00:00

Embrace the Zero Effect

Adopt the 'zero effect' mindset: seek any interesting idea rather than the perfect one.
This openness improves brainstorming and creative iteration significantly.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Unveiling the Creative Journey Behind a Game

05:43 • 2min

chevron_right

The Art of Game Design: Creativity and Connection

07:21 • 22min

chevron_right

The Joy of Collaboration and Patience in Creative Projects

29:36 • 3min

chevron_right

Designing Coyote: From Ideation to Collaboration

32:38 • 6min

chevron_right

Transforming Simple Games into Engaging Experiences

38:49 • 2min

chevron_right

The Creative Journey of COYOTE

41:02 • 16min

chevron_right

Innovative Game Design and Cognitive Engagement

57:03 • 17min

chevron_right

Behind the Success of 'Hurry Up Chicken Butt'

01:13:40 • 19min

chevron_right

The Unanticipated Success of a New Game at a Major Convention

01:32:20 • 2min

chevron_right

The Art of Game Distribution and Retail Strategy

01:34:13 • 2min

chevron_right

Mastering the Art of Creative Pitching

01:36:31 • 18min

chevron_right

The Role of Agents in Retail Success

01:54:39 • 5min

chevron_right

The Evolution of Game Marketing and Crowdfunding Strategies

01:59:51 • 19min

chevron_right

Navigating Game Development Fundamentals

02:19:00 • 9min

chevron_right

Navigating Game Design and Marketing Challenges

02:28:13 • 20min

chevron_right

Creating Games and Engaging with Fans through Social Media

02:47:56 • 5min

chevron_right

Embracing Creativity Through Game Design

02:52:49 • 3min

chevron_right

Embracing Modern Tools: A Journey through E-Commerce and AI Innovations

02:55:36 • 5min

chevron_right

#7432

• Mentioned in 4 episodes

A Theory of Fun

Raf Koster

#8295

• Mentioned in 4 episodes

One simple idea

Stephen Key

In 'One Simple Idea', Stephen Key shares his expertise on transforming creativity into marketable products by licensing ideas to companies. The book provides strategies for product development, sales, and negotiation, highlighting the potential for passive income without the need for manufacturing or business management. Key emphasizes that successful ideas should solve problems, have a 'wow' factor, appeal to a large market, and use common production methods.

#2642

• Mentioned in 11 episodes

Don't Shoot the Dog

Karen Pryor

In 'Don't Shoot the Dog,' Karen Pryor explains the underlying principles of behavioral training and how these can be applied to various common situations. The book covers topics such as reinforcement, shaping, and stimulus control, and provides eight methods for ending undesirable behavior. Pryor emphasizes the use of positive reinforcement, illustrating its effectiveness through examples involving animals like dolphins, dogs, and cats, as well as human behavior. The book is known for its clear and entertaining explanation, making it accessible to a broad audience and offering practical advice on training without the use of force, punishment, or guilt trips.

This is a very special episode for me. My brand-new card game, COYOTE, created in collaboration with Elan Lee and Exploding Kittens, is here. It is available in ~8,000 locations worldwide, including Walmart, Target, Amazon, and many others. Learn more: https://coyotegame.com.

This episode is brought to you by:

Gamma AI design partner for effortless presentations, websites, social media posts, and more: https://gamma.app (use code TIM at checkout for one month off on their annual plan)

Shopify global commerce platform, providing tools to start, grow, market, and manage a retail business: https://shopify.com/tim (one-dollar-per-month trial period)

Wealthfront high-yield cash account: https://Wealthfront.com/Tim (Start earning 4.00% APY on your short-term cash until you’re ready to invest. And when new clients open an account today, you can get an extra fifty-dollar bonus with a deposit of five hundred dollars or more.) Terms apply. Tim Ferriss receives cash compensation from Wealthfront Brokerage, LLC for advertising and holds a non-controlling equity interest in the corporate parent of Wealthfront Brokerage. See full disclosures here.

Timestamps:

[00:00:00] Start.

[00:05:21] Coyote: a game 47 years in the making.

[00:08:41] Who is Elan Lee?

[00:09:37] How our motivations behind game creation intersect.

[00:12:41] The nutshell view of pitching a game to a retailer.

[00:14:40] Salesmanship is a learnable skill, but Elan’s a natural.

[00:15:53] Why I’ve always wanted to make my own game and how development began in earnest.

[00:26:00] First contact with Elan and our fast-forged, fun-focused friendship.

[00:32:28] The Hanabi and Rock, Paper, Scissors-inspired Toronto trip breakthrough.

[00:39:40] Early prototyping and testing.

[00:45:34] The Zero Effect.

[00:47:37] Recommended game design rationales, resources, and reading.

[00:53:00] The beginner’s mind approach to writing effective game instructions.

[00:56:26] A simple fact: less complication = more fun.

[00:57:49] Cooperative vs. competitive play.

[00:58:24] Leveling the playing field with attack cards and sabotage mechanics.

[01:01:34] Tricking people into cognitively bettering themselves by gaming.

[01:08:04] Finding the sweet spot.

[01:10:44] It takes a lot of work to make a game effortlessly fun.

[01:13:40] How many games does Exploding Kittens publish per year?

[01:14:36] Exploding Kittens’ number-one seller was designed by Elan’s four-year-old daughter.

[01:18:30] Prototypes and pitching.

[01:22:26] Improving on the industry’s fundamentally flawed testing procedure.

[01:24:58] Analyzing passing/failure with play testers’ video and feedback.

[01:28:41] Risks of internal testing.

[01:31:47] Coyote’s first positive signs from the wild.

[01:34:22] Online vs. physical store sales and tweaking variables to gauge market interest.

[01:41:22] What a successful line review looks like.

[01:43:51] Line review hoops through which lesser-proven companies have to hop.

[01:48:04] Elan’s field-tested line review meeting strategies.

[01:54:15] The importance of finding proper agent representation.

[01:59:35] In modern marketing, social media (especially short-form video) is king.

[02:04:48] The best and worst ways for an aspiring designer to sell a game.

[02:13:05] Crowdfunding pros and cons, and Kickstarter alternatives.

[02:19:57] Dealing with deal terms.

[02:23:56] The Exploding Kittens attitude toward rare partnerships.

[02:25:45] The types of games that capture Elan’s attention.

[02:27:40] Common game design mistakes.

[02:29:49] How we tried to avoid these mistakes when packaging Coyote.

[02:33:55] Self-publishing vs. conventional publishing.

[02:38:40] Business considerations and risks.

[02:44:59] Parting thoughts and a tantalizing offer.

For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast.

For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors

Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday.

For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.

Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.

Follow Tim:

Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss

Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss

YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss

Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferriss

Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, Margaret Atwood, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter Thiel, Dr. Gabor Maté, Anne Lamott, Sarah Silverman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and many more.

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Home Top podcasts Popular guests Top books