10% Happier with Dan Harris How To Get Out Of Your Head: Joseph Goldstein and Sam Harris on Nirvana, Non-Clinging, Non-Duality, and the Best Way to Meditate
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Nov 19, 2025 
Sam Harris, a neuroscientist and founder of the Waking Up app, engages with Joseph Goldstein, co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society, in a riveting discussion on the paths to meditation freedom. They explore the concept of non-duality and its practical relevance, delve into different Buddhist traditions' interpretations of samsara and nirvana, and debate the impact of non-clinging on reducing suffering. Their insights challenge perspectives on meditation methodology, emphasizing both gradual and direct approaches to achieving mental clarity and emotional resilience.
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Two Routes To The Same Freedom
- Sam frames the debate: Dzogchen points directly to non-dual awareness while Vipassana builds mindfulness progressively.
- Joseph agrees non-duality is central but argues steady mindfulness often precedes stable insight.
Non-Duality Has Many Meanings
- Joseph outlines multiple meanings of non-duality across traditions, including jhana unification and existence/non-existence collapse.
- He warns clarity requires specifying which sense of non-duality you mean in any discussion.
Different Traditions Define Nirvana Differently
- Later Vajrayana/Dzogchen frames awareness as inseparable clarity-and-emptiness and treats Rigpa as the recognized ultimate.
- Theravada often treats nirvana as transcending awareness, hence different endpoints emerge.
