Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career
What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author)
Episode guests
Podcast summary created with Snipd AI
Quick takeaways
- Marketing is vital; overshadowing product brilliance. Timing crucial for success of innovative yet misunderstood products.
- Human resistance to change and societal norms hinder adoption of seemingly superior products. Market readiness is essential.
- Understanding consumer psychology, habits, biases crucial for success. Incorporating diverse perspectives and two-stage decision-making fosters creativity.
Deep dives
Marketing's Influence on Product Success
Marketing plays a significant role in the success of products, often overshadowed by the product's brilliance. Steve Jobs exemplifies the power of marketing over pure technological innovation. Innovation alone doesn't guarantee success, as seen with past failed but excellent products like Google Glass and the Wine Box that had noteworthy features but missed the mark due to timing and marketing missteps.
Challenges of Innovation Adoption
Innovations face hurdles in adoption due to human resistance to change and societal norms. Examples like the Japanese toilet's superior functionality and the failure of the Chumby device showcase how brilliant ideas may not resonate with consumers if mistimed or misunderstood, highlighting the complexities of behavior change and market readiness.
Historical Perspectives on Product Adoption
Reflecting on historical examples like the slow acceptance of mobile phones and online grocery shopping, it becomes evident that radical ideas face initial ridicule or resistance before becoming commonplace. This underscores the challenges in introducing unconventional products that challenge established norms or habits.
Importance of Psychological and Emotional Factors in Marketing
Acknowledging the psychological aspects of consumer behavior is crucial in marketing and innovation. The human brain's nuanced decision-making processes, influenced by habits, social influence, and cognitive biases, impact product adoption and success more than logical rationale. Understanding human psychology is key to navigating consumer preferences and driving innovation in a crowded market.
Innovating Decision Making: Sober vs. Drunk Debate
The podcast delves into the ancient Persian method of making decisions by deliberating twice - once sober and once drunk. This approach aimed to ensure decisions satisfied both rational and emotional considerations. The discussion highlights the value of incorporating diverse perspectives and a two-stage decision-making process to foster creativity and better outcomes.
Building Brands: Consistency, Distinctiveness, and Fame
The episode emphasizes the importance of consistency, distinctiveness, and fame in building successful brands. It argues that fame fundamentally changes the dynamics of consumer behavior and decision-making. Being famous can lead to increased trust, customer loyalty, and a competitive edge. The host advises startups to focus on consistency, distinctiveness, and achieving fame to establish a strong brand presence.
Rory Sutherland is widely regarded as one of the most influential (and most entertaining) thinkers in marketing and behavioral science. He’s the vice chairman of Ogilvy UK, the author of Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life, and the founder of Nudgestock, the world’s biggest festival of behavioral science and creativity. He champions thinking from first principles and using human psychology—what he calls “thinking psycho-logically”—over mere logic. In our conversation, we cover:
• Why good products don’t always succeed, and bad ones don’t necessarily fail
• Why less functionality can sometimes be more valuable
• The importance of fame in building successful brands
• The importance of timing in product success
• The concept of “most advanced, yet acceptable”
• Why metrics-driven workplaces can be demotivating
• Lots of real-world case studies
• Much more
Note: We encountered some technical difficulties that led to less than ideal video quality for this episode, but the lessons from this conversation made it impossible for me to not publish it anyway. Thanks for your understanding and for bearing with the less-than-ideal video quality.
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Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-most-people-miss-about-marketing
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Where to find Rory Sutherland:
• X: https://x.com/rorysutherland
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland
• Book: Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Curious-Science-Creating-Business/dp/006238841X
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Rory’s background
(02:37) The success and failure of products
(04:08) Why the urge to appear serious can be a disaster in marketing
(08:05) The role of distinctiveness in product design
(12:29) The MAYA principle
(15:50) How thinking irrationally can be advantageous
(17:40) The fault of multiple-choice tests
(21:31) Companies that have successfully implemented out-of-the-box thinking
(30:31) “Psycho-logical” thinking
(31:45) The hare and the dog metaphor
(38:51) Marketing’s crucial role in product adoption
(49:21) The quirks of Google Glass
(55:44) Survivorship bias
(56:09) Balancing rational ideas with irrational ideas
(01:06:19) The rise and fall of tech innovations
(01:09:54) Consistency, distinctiveness, and clarity
(01:21:12) Considering psychological, technological, and economic factors in parallel
(01:23:35) Where to find Rory
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Referenced:
• Google Glass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Glass
• Meta Portal TV: https://www.meta.com/portal/products/portal-tv/
• Rory’s quote in a LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brad-jackson-04766642_the-urge-to-appear-serious-is-a-disaster-activity-7093497742710210560-1LYN/
• The MAYA Principle: Design for the Future, but Balance It with Your Users’ Present: https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/design-for-the-future-but-balance-it-with-your-users-present
• Ogilvy: https://www.ogilvy.com/
• MCI: https://www.mci.world/
• Veuve Clicquot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veuve_Clicquot
• Why do the French call the British ‘the roast beefs’?: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2913151.stm
• The Killing on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-killing-f5da5c2d-4626-4ba9-bcf3-ff5f891771fb
• Original The Killing on BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017h7m1
• The Mandarin Oriental, Hong Kong: https://www.mandarinoriental.com/en/hong-kong/victoria-harbour
• SAT: https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/sat
• The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test: https://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html
• What is the age of the captain?: https://www.icopilots.com/what-is-the-age-of-the-captain/
• Octopus Energy: https://octopus.energy/
• Kraken: https://octopusenergy.group/kraken-technologies
• Toby Shannan: https://theorg.com/org/shopify/org-chart/toby-shannan
• Dunbar’s number: Why we can only maintain 150 relationships: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191001-dunbars-number-why-we-can-only-maintain-150-relationships
• AO: https://ao.com/
• Zappos: https://www.zappos.com/
• Joe Cano on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeycano/
• John Ralston Saul’s website: https://www.johnralstonsaul.com/
• Voltaire’s Bastards: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West: https://www.amazon.com/Voltaires-Bastards-Dictatorship-Reason-West/dp/0679748199
• Psycho-Logic: Why Too Much Logic Deters Magic: https://coffeeandjunk.com/psycho-logic/
• Herbert Simon’s Decision-Making Approach: https://bura.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/4995/1/Fulltext.pdf
• Robert Trivers’s website: https://roberttrivers.com/Welcome.html
• Crazy Ivan: https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=Crazy_Ivan
• The Joys of Being a Late Tech Adopter: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/technology/personaltech/joys-late-tech-adopter.html
• Jean-Claude Van Damme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Van_Damme
• Tim Berners-Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee
• Edward Jenner and the history of smallpox and vaccination: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/
• The real story behind penicillin: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the-real-story-behind-the-worlds-first-antibiotic
• What Are Japanese Toilets?: https://www.bigbathroomshop.co.uk/info/blog/japanese-toilets/
• reMarkable: https://remarkable.com/
• Chumby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumby
• Survivorship bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
• Jony Ive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive
• Marc Newson’s website: https://marc-newson.com/
• Designing Men: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2013/11/jony-ive-marc-newson-design-auction
• Qantas A330: https://marc-newson.com/qantas-a330/
• Herodotus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus
• Big Decision? Consider It Both Drunk and Sober: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chunkamui/2016/03/22/wine-and-sleep-make-for-better-decisions/?sh=5c97fdc524b1
• How Henry Ford and Thomas Edison killed the electric car: https://www.speakev.com/threads/how-henry-ford-and-thomas-edison-killed-the-electric-car.4270/
• Watch Jay Leno get nostalgic and swoon over this 1909 EV: https://thenextweb.com/news/jay-leno-talk-about-electric-car-1909-baker
• Jay Leno’s Garage: https://www.youtube.com/@jaylenosgarage
• Nudgestock: https://nudgestock.com/
• Akio Morita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akio_Morita
• Don Norman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnorman/
• What Makes Tesla’s Business Model Different: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/072115/what-makes-teslas-business-model-different.asp
• Monica Lewinsky on X: https://x.com/MonicaLewinsky
• Blindsight: The (Mostly) Hidden Ways Marketing Reshapes Our Brains: azon.com/Blindsight-Mostly-Hidden-Marketing-Reshapes-ebook/dp/B07ZKZ5DWF
• Branding That Means Business: https://www.amazon.com/Branding-that-Means-Business-Economist-ebook/dp/B09QBCCH9N
• PwC: https://www.pwc.com
• Ryanair: https://www.ryanair.com
• British Airways: https://www.britishairways.com/
• Wrigley’s began as a soap business: know when to pivot: https://theamericangenius.com/entrepreneur/wrigleys-began-as-soap-know-when-to-pivot/
• Transport for Humans: https://www.amazon.com/Transport-Humans-Perspectives-Pete-Dyson/dp/1913019357
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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
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