Find The Outside

In episode eight, Tim and Tuesday empathize with facilitators and collaborators separated by organizational difference or mandates — and explore how to go deep and draw out the greatest value.1.08 —— SHOW NOTESRecent favourite binge-worthy shows: The Good Place and Occupied.When we set up people in a circle, we invariably wind up having it feel like therapy. This can make some of us feel open, and others feel resistant. As facilitators, what can we do to position depth as a path to the outcomes we want?Question: Where does this fear of depth come from? What’s the narrative that makes staying out of depth and treating people as sub-human permissable?Some people feel compelled to protect the patriarchy / white supremacy—especially those who have wealth, or who generate wealth for other people. —TuesdayIn change, people often struggle with leadership because they fear the work will cause a loss of relationships. This has a lot to do with the mechanistic worldview that is responsible for setting up our organizations, when we didn’t realize the interconnectedness of things, and when we treat human organizations as machines, striving for efficiency.This organizational structure not only fails to acknowledge people’s humanity, but is fundamentally oppressive. It’s not like these organizations set free people’s potential.Question: What allows or justifies the perpetuation of systems that are so unkind?If you can make non-emotional judgement calls, you’re successful. That’s part of the programming I received from my parents: that you actually can’t lead if you’re empathetically or emotionally engaged with people. — TimSong of the day: Frank Turner’s Be More KindPoem of the day: Self Portrait by David WhyteIt doesn't interest me if there is one Godor many gods.I want to know if you belong or feelabandoned.If you know despair or can see it in others.I want to knowif you are prepared to live in the worldwith its harsh needto change you. If you can look backwith firm eyessaying this is where I stand. I want to knowif you knowhow to melt into that fierce heat of livingfalling towardthe center of your longing. I want to knowif you are willingto live, day by day, with the consequence of loveand the bitterunwanted passion of your sure defeat.I have heard, in that fierce embrace, eventhe gods speak of God. -- David Whyte from Fire in the Earth ©1992 Many Rivers PressSubscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com. Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 45:45Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: source Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In episode seven, Tim and Tuesday invite us ‘backstage’ to share revelations and lessons along the path of making their work of systems change into a repeatable, bankable business.1.07 —SHOW NOTESTim talks about his first entry into the working world, wanting to find a job that could make a difference. Tuesday notes that she never wanted to work for herself.Many of us have that moment of taking on a massive amount of debt when we’re young—as soon as the bank notices us as a new source of interest—and we then spend the next several years working to pay it off. For some of us, that’s a wake-up call. —TimTim describes ‘going feral’ and getting approved for a £10,000 credit card, and borrowing from mom and dad to pay it off to the tune of 35% of his income every month.Tuesday took a course around limiting beliefs around money. She was asked to write down all of her beliefs about poor people, then about rich people—and the contrast in these thoughts was shocking.Tim and Tuesday explore the friction of negotiating in systems change work. Even though we want to use our talents and skills to make positive change, we still have to pay the bills—so we have to push through that uncomfortable point of attaching money to our contribution.How does growing up in poverty—or in abundance—influence us as entrepreneursHow does a global network of contacts come into play when work is thin? How do we make the ask, and how can we make ourselves invaluable?What other moments and windfalls helped propel us early on? Tim and Tuesday talk about managing the ebb and flow of inheritances, debt, grants, internships, and volunteering.At what point does systems change work become ‘a real job’? What does that even mean? What does that transition look and feel like, and how can we manage it well?The field of systems change facilitation didn’t exist until the early 2000s, when Art of Hosting began developing an architecture under all of these different processes.Tim and Tuesday explore how saying NO to some work helps build your business.Poem of the day: Mary Oliver's Work, SometimesWork, SometimesI was sad all day, and why not. There I was, books piledon both sides of the table, paper stacked up, wordsfalling off my tongue.The robins had been a long time singing, and now itwas beginning to rain.What are we sure of? Happiness isn’t a town on a map,or an early arrival, or a job well done, but good workongoing. Which is not likely to be the trifling aroundwith a poem.Then it began raining hard, and the flowers in the yardwere full of lively fragrance.You have had days like this, no doubt. And wasn’t itwonderful, finally, to leave the room? Ah, what amoment!As for myself, I swung the door open. And there wasthe wordless, singing world. And I ran for my life.Mary OliverNew and Selected Poems, Vol. IISong of the day: Chaka Khan, Like SugarSubscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com.Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 42:55Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: source Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In episode six, Tim and Tuesday explore the role played by limiting beliefs in their work on systems change, equity and leadership—and the practice of letting them go.1.06 —— SHOW NOTESCan working with our limiting beliefs be liberating? Is it possible (or even advisable) to eliminate our limiting beliefs?What kind of limiting beliefs show up most frequently in your work?Can you remember something you once believed that you no longer believe?We talk about our beliefs as limiting, because we spend a lot of our time loosening them up.Culture eats strategy for lunch. This is part of what sets us free.The level of change that you’re willing to go through yourself is directly relative to the level of change we’re going to see around this…The linearity of it is hard for me to graph… ‘All the levels all the time’They don’t care about it like we do. People can feel their own care and commitment, but can really be suspect of other folks care and commitment.I’m not powerful enough is as dangerous as I’m important, this work is important, the most important work. —TimThere’s a large attachment in the world of hiring consultants to the idea of epiphany.Limiting beliefs are conversations to come back to again and again and again. It’s not about eliminating them, it’s about being in relationship with them.One of my core limiting beliefs is ‘I don’t deserve to take up space’, so one of my biggest pet peeves is other people taking up space. —TuesdayPoem: Elephant in the room by Lemn SissaySong: Little Red Corvette by PrinceSubscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com.Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 36:39Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: source Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In episode five, Tim and Tuesday unpack why they’ve declined invitations to grow bigger, choosing instead to make The Outside small, flexible, and connected.1.05 —— SHOW NOTESWe are totally committed to building capacity within the communities and organizations we engage. We don’t want to build a dependency on ourselves for the people we’re serving.We create the conditions for people to get to work on stuff themselves.Bookmarking:Our deliberateness of working with managers of one.Something about this design, the structure of our business that forces a surrendering of control.That we work in the void, the space between things. The more rigid we become the less able we actually are to be responsive.Tim notes ‘managers of one’ with link to the book REWORKWe’ve never got bigger, we’ve just got more connected… it’s allowed us to go to greater and greater scale in our work.In your working relationships, seek out ease. The work is hard enough.Our classic one-liner: We’re not going to do it for you. We’re going to do it with you.Letting go of control is not an abdication of responsibility.The Void—we are bringing together multiple stakeholders who are bringing people together.We need to be hyper flexible, anti-fragilePoem: Lemn Sissay, Listener: ArchitectureSong: Babba Maal & Mumford and Sons: There will be timeSubscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com.Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 33:55Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: source Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In episode four, Tim and Tuesday reflect on the mindset shift of seeing reality clearly—not just the future that we hope for—and the value of working with what is, right now.1.04 —— SHOW NOTESTim shares a quote from the podcast Scroobious Pip: “You work with what you’ve got—not with what you hope for.”The gap between working with what is, versus what you hoped for can feel like miles.We don’t often talk about the capacity to be in heartbreak—a key element of resiliency.“Heartbreak is a part of life no one can avoid. But I have choices to make about how my heart breaks. Will it break apart into a thousand shards, and perhaps be thrown like a fragment grenade at the ostensible source of my pain? Or will it break open into greater capacity to hold my own and the world’s suffering and joy? If I shut my heart down and allow it to get brittle, heartbreak will shatter it, injuring me and those around me. But if keep my heart supple by “exercising” it—allowing my suffering and the suffering around me to stretch that spiritual muscle—heartbreak will open my heart, bringing me more peace and adding to the world’s vital store of compassion.” —Parker Palmer
Heartbreak can manifest as fury as much as it can manifest as openness. It’s not difficult to imagine and feel both.What are the practices that enable us to deal with heartbreak when it emerges? Does it help to pick fury?How do we work with our own heartbreak and the heartbreak of others around us… and how do we enable that to be something we’re choosing?Where’s the space given for heartbreak? Not to stay there, but to allow it, and maybe move from a soft heart. What’s the loss? What’s the risk if we let this go? What’s the risk of not doing it?Poem: The Repairman by John ColdwellHe said that he had patched it as best he couldBut he warned, eventually,The whole lot would have to come down.He tucked his ladder under his armAnd pressed into my hand a splintered shard of sky.Song of the episode: Lemon by N.E.R.D. and RhiannaSubscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com.Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 33:57Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: source Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In episode three, we contemplate the nature of neutrality. Is it even possible - or desirable - to be neutral as a host or facilitator? What are our obligations towards the people in the room?SHOW NOTESTim and Tuesday explore the presumption and delivery of neutrality as facilitators, and its connection to equity. Says Tim: “I will very specifically recommend to people to not take actions that increase the adversity between them. I will leverage my power every single day for something other than that.”The more chaotic and uncertain things become in the world, the more we need to turn to each other. If we’re going to be useful to one another, we need to let go of control—but we also need structure in order to move forward. How do we balance the two?On reimagining systems with equity at the centre: “Creating an arsenal that our grandchildren are going to be like ‘thank you’ for.” —TimOn how we show up as facilitators, especially when our voice is among those amplified over others up by current systems: “Our first inclination is to just disavow the privilege and then just say ‘use it for good.’ But using your privilege for change doesn’t mean you accept the status quo… it’s much more complex and nuanced than that. Also, leveraging doesn’t look the same in every situation.” —TuesdayOn how collaborators can be in relationship with an awareness of neutrality and privilege, but carry on despite it: “(You and I) have a lack of fragility… an ability to go back and forth with one another without collapsing. There’s a lot in the lack of fragility.” —TimTuesday mentions Nariyyah Waheed’s Salt: “We have all hurt someone tremendously, whether by intent or accident. We have all loved someone tremendously, whether by intent or accident. It is an intrinsic human trait, and a deep responsibility, I think, to be an organ and a blade. But, learning to forgive ourselves and others because we have not chosen wisely is what makes us most human. We make horrible mistakes. It’s how we learn. We breathe love. It’s how we learn. And it is inevitable.”The song of the episode: I Got Cash by Brooklyn Funk EssentialsSubscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com.Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 40:06Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary Blakemore Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In episode two, Tim and Tuesday recap the facilitation paths that led them towards their collaboration on equity, big systems change, and leadership.SHOW NOTESFirst, Tim and Tuesday discuss where the work of systems change and equity began for each of them, and how has it shifted over the years. What would a typical project look like ten years ago, and for who was the typical client? How did they get paid to do this work? Wrapping up, Tim talks about the impact of Augusto Boal’s Theatre of the Oppressed.Next, Tim and Tuesday talk about the significance of who they are as a unit: Why ‘The Outside’? What does a typical project look like? At what point do people pick up the phone and call us to come in? How does work begin for us? How do we begin?For our PRACTICES segment, we ask: what’s keeping you sane?Each episode will have a song or poem of the week that feels integral to the work. This week, it’s a poem by Sarah La Rosa from her book Her Strange Angels:The way to find a measure of solace in the place of unknowingOf waitingOn the verge of deep watersIs to remember that we are equipped with the ability to floatWater is out natural stateWe had our beginnings in a sacred seaAnd so returning to that vast ocean does not have to be scary and unknownIt could be more like going home.Subscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com.Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 45:45Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary Blakemore Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In episode one, Tim and Tuesday kick off with a lively conversation on what matters most as change makers push back — on broken systems, missing voices, and the status quo. SHOW NOTESFirst up, we introduce ourselves, talk about our work—who we are and what we do—who are these voices in your ears? Then, we raise the deeper questions we’ll dive into in the coming months: key building blocks and obstacles in the shared work of equity and systems change.THE POINT OF PODCASTING: This podcast is a pause to let what we’re learning settle in. Talking and thinking out-loud—inviting other people in—to capture and share insight. Tim riffs a spoken word poem about reflection being too important to leave to chance.THE ROOTS OF OUR WORK: What about how and where we came up in the world made us? Tim and Tuesday recap their origins in the world—class, education, geographies, cultures, careers, ethnicity—equity!—and how all this shapes who they are today (and how they work together).PARTICIPATORY LEADERSHIP: Participatory leadership as a driving force when we realized how much was missing from solutions. Understanding power, privilege, race, gender—pulling all these impacts together to change systems that might make the world better. It’s not just personal. It has to be bigger than us as individuals.RETHINKING PRIVILEGE: Let’s do a whole podcast about the word ‘privilege’—even though it’s so heavily used these days, we almost want to return to it, and rethink how it fundamentally informs our work.ALIGNING LIFE EXPERIENCE TO STRATEGY: How do we align our basis for processing the world—our strategic brain, which comes with all kinds of assumptions and patterns rooted in our life experience—with a new sort of bigger-picture strategy that has to get beyond the typical? How do we navigate our relationships across time to keep us moving on-strategy, while staying in-relationship with each other?INFLUENCING FACTORS ‘IN THE ROOM‘: Tim and Tuesday explore various positive and negative influencing factors in ‘running the room’ when they’re experimenting towards systems change: generosity, that just-enough mentality, privilege.WORK-LIFE BALANCE: The psychology and effect of work-family balance as our work scales up: how can we make sure that as our success grows—as we scale our work to the next level—how can we be sure we’re not exhausted by it to the point where we’ve not got enough for our families?BUILDING A CAN-DO VIBE: How can we acknowledge a persistently difficult reality while also uplifting the room?SEEING REALITY CLEARLY: What it means to bring a willingness to see reality into the room. Not just conceptual clarity, but also being clear on how much we don’t know. What’s the value of knowing how much we don’t know?WORKING TOWARDS A SOCIETY THAT SERVES ALL: Why does this principle somehow feel like ‘milk toast’, as Tuesday calls it? Important, but somehow bland. ‘Serves all’ becomes a blanket that can muffle clarity. Equity is not just addressing marginalization, but also building something that every person in the system, across power lines, actively benefits from. Not just ending lack of benefit but creating benefit. We’re radically committed to this idea, but we need to make sure that when we talk about it, it’s not a throwaway line.EPISODE 1 SONG: Damn, dis-moi by Christine and the QueensSubscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com.Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 40:26Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary Blakemore Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.