The Debrief with Jon Becker

My guest today is Jordan MacWilliams.  Jordan is a 15 year member of the RCMP Lower Mainland Division Integrated Emergency Response Team, the second largest tactical unit in Canada.  On November 7, 2012 Jordan fired a single shot which killed a hostage taker who pointed a gun at the team after a five-hour standoff at the Starlight Casino in New Westminster, British Columbia. Although it was a completely justifiable shooting, this incident began an almost three-year nightmare for Jordan and his family which included Jordan being charged with Murder by the newly created Independent Investigations Office, a civilian oversight board created just before Jordan’s shooting.  This was the first time a police officer had been charged for using lethal force in British Columbia since 1975. Although the charges would later be dismissed, the damage to Jordan and his family had already been done.  Jordans story is both a cautionary tale and a story of struggle, persistence, and eventual victory over a politically motivated witch hunt.  This is a fantastic conversation that should leave all of us repeating Jordan’s Mantra for the event: Be Better, Not Bitter!Contact InfoJordan MacWilliamsLinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/jordan-m-976692257Email - jordan.macwilliams@rcmp-grc.gc.caBooks SuggestedLegacy: What The All Blacks Can Teach Us About The Business Of Life Paperback by James Kerr - ISBN-13: ‎ 978-1472103536The Mission, The Men, and Me: Lessons from a Former Delta Force Commander by Pete Blaber - ISBN-13: ‎ 978-0425223727

My guest today is Gareth Lock.  Gareth spent 25 years in the Royal Air Force as a flight instructor, a navigator on C-130 Hercules, a systems engineer and a requirements manager. Following his retirement from the RAF in 2015 he started work in high-risk industries teaching Human Factors and Crew Resource Management (CRM).  Eventually Gareth turned his attention to diving, applying a military systems approach to diving risk management by creating an organization called The Human Diver which is focused on what they describe as Counter-Errorism. Specifically, Gareth and his team provides training globally to high reliability and high-risk organizations on leadership, culture, and practical measures to improve operator safety.  In 2019 Gareth led a team of military experts to undertake a review of UK military diving with the goal of improving diver safety. Gareth has worked with the US National Parks Service Submerged Resource Centre (Denver, CO), National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research Ltd (NZ), and the American Academy of Underwater Sciences (USA) to provide human factors training and high-performance team development courses.Gareth is the author of the book Under Pressure – Diving Deeper with Human Factors which looks at case studies of near disasters and applies academic theory to understanding how we can better communicate and lead those in high risk/high reliability units.  I am excited to have Gareth on because his views of human fallibility, although rooted in diving, have broad lessons to teach anyone who leads others, especially those working in high-risk areas.Contact Informationwww.thehumandiver.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garethlock/ Links Compliance provides an illusion of safety in divingDave Snowden’s paper on ‘Knowledge without context is meaningless’ – Complex acts of knowing.  Safety Culture & Trade-offs – Risk management in a dynamic society: a modelling problem – Jens Rasmussen paper  Red Teaming Thinking  Risk Savvy – Risk vs Uncertainty Interpersonal Skills Lab The training I offer across multiple domains which has no/limited professional jeopardy Blog about Learning from Near Misses. Were you lucky or good?  Local Rationality and Hindsight

Kevin Cyr is an Inspector with Royal Canadian Mounted Police and is the current commander of the RCMP Emergency Response Team in British Columbia, which is the second largest tactical unit in Canada. Kevin has been with RCMP for 22 years and has been with the team for 7 years. He has a master’s in law from Osgoode Hall Law School and is published internationally in law and criminology journals. He also teaches incident command at the Canadian Police College.Contact Info: LinkedInBooks Recommended: Extreme Ownership - Jocko Willink and Leif Babin – ISBN# 250067057

My guest today is Jordan Robison. This episode is a follow up to last week’s Critical Incident Review about the August 18, 2021, shooting that occurred when the San Bernardino Police Department’s SWAT Team attempted to arrest a suspect who had ambushed and attempted to murder a San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Deputy the day before. When the team performed a vehicle takedown the suspect immediately opened fireon the team with a 10mm handgun, striking Jordan in both forearms, his shoulder, his femur, his stomach below the armor and a grazing wound to his ribs. He was also hit in the abdomen which was stopped by his armor. After last week’s episode we received several calls and emails asking about Jordan so we decided to do a follow up episode with him to discuss his recovery and his personal lessons learned. There is a great deal of very valuable information on this episode which we hope will help others who are affected by an on-duty shooting.

On August 18, 2021, the San Bernardino California SWAT Team was assigned to locate and arrest a suspect who had ambushed and attempted to murder a San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Deputy the day before. When the team located and attempted a vehicle takedown the suspect immediately opened fire on the team with a 10mm handgun, striking Officer Jordan Robison 8 times and Officer Chris Shipley once. Officer Robison was hit in both forearms, his shoulder, his femur, his stomach below the armor and a took grazing wound to his ribs. He was also hit twice in the abdomen which were stopped by his armor. Officer Shipley, despite being shot in the leg, was able to return fire along with a teammate fatally wounding the suspect.  Officer Shipley then rendered lifesaving medical aid to Officer Robison. SWAT Medic Spencer Brumbaugh was also on scene and provided lifesaving aid to Officer Robison immediately after the incident and through subsequent transport to the emergency room.My guests today are Jordan Robison, Chris Shipley and Spencer BrumbaughTimestamps1:25 - Introduction To The Incident2:39 - Leadup To The Event13:14 - Start Of The Takedown15:00 - The Exits The Van 17:18 -Jordan And Chris Are Shot 21:00 -Chris Treats Jordan25:50 -Chris Discusses Treating Jordan28:00 -Spencer Treating Jordan's Injuries40:35 -Getting To The ER46:00 -The Need To Remain Calm48:00 -Lessons Learned56:20 -What The Tacmed Program Did Right1:02:00 -Training For The Worse Case Scenario1:12:19 - The Risk Of Complacency 1:17:39 - Knowing Your Gear1:21:00 - The Role Of Competition And Culture1:23:41- Things They Would Do Differently

DescriptionMy guest today is Bob Koonce. Bob is the founder of High Reliability Group, which he created after serving 20 years in the United States Navy. Bob's distinguished naval career included serving on five different nuclear fast attack submarines and culminated with him being given command of the USS Key West, a $2 billion nuclear-powered Los Angeles-class fast attack submarine. Following his retirement from the Navy, Bob has worked in a variety of leadership roles, primarily in the energy industry, where he has led business development, project management, and consulting efforts for large and small companies. Bob is an expert in the leadership of high-reliability organizations and a co-author of the book, "'Extreme Operational Excellence,' which focuses on the culture of the United States nuclear submarine force. Our conversation today focuses on utilizing specific techniques he learned in the nuclear submarine community to drive the culture of high reliability organizations. Contact InfoBob KooncePresident and FounderHigh Reliability Group LLC312-859-9311www.hrghro.comlinkedin.com/in/bobkoonceBooks RecommendedExtreme Operational Excellence: Applying the US Nuclear Submarine Culture to Your Organization: DiGeronimo, Matt, Koonce, Bob: 9781478778127: Amazon.com: BooksAmazon.com: The High-Velocity Edge: How Market Leaders Leverage Operational Excellence to Beat the Competition: 9780071741415: Steven J. Spear: BooksTimestampsTimestamps00:01:55 Nuclear Submarine Culture00:10:50 Methods of Developing Positive Culture00:15:30 Authority and High-Risk Decision Making00:22:40 Importance and Reinforcement of Lessons Learned00:31:15 Bob’s Most Important Habit00:31:50 The Most Important Element of Building an Effective Team00:32:13 What Should Every Leader Know?

Starting next week The Debrief will be introducing a new series called Battle Proven Leadership (or BPL). In contrast to the long format and wide-ranging interviews of The Debrief, BPL episodes will be shorter and deeply explore a single topic in leadership with a goal of providing specific/actionable information that you can use to improve your leadership skills. My guests will be subject matter experts who operate in high stress environments both inside and outside the tactical community. Regardless of whether your battlefield is a military, law enforcement, or business operation, each episode will expose you to the viewpoints, techniques and tactics of leaders whose skills have been proven in high risk operations with zero margin for error.

My guest today is John Mattingly. John is a retired Sgt. from the Louisville Police Department who led the search warrant service at the home of Breonna Taylor on March 13, 2020 and was shot in the leg by her boyfriend Kenneth Walker before returning fire along with another officer resulting in the death of Ms. Taylor. This event, of course, became a huge catalytic event for protests, riots, lawsuits, death threats against the officers and, tragically, the shooting of two more officers in response to the multi-day civil unrest that followed. It has also led to three of the officers involved in obtaining the warrant as well as one of the officers involved in the raid being charged with federal crimes. John has recently written a book called 12 Seconds in the Dark that documents the facts of the case from his perspective and discusses numerous issues that have not been discussed in the media. Timestamps3:15 John’s Career History6:40 Background Of The Warrant13:40 John’s First Involvement In The Case17:35 The Night of The Warrant, Ad Hoc Team & Training for Narcotics Units in LMPD24:40 Arrival at the Scene, Initial Scouting & Apartment Layout31:55 Search Warrant Service Begins 42:00 Initial Aftermath of the Shooting52:40 John's Injuries and Medical Treatment56:35 Press aftermath and inaccuracy of reporting 01:05:20 Initial Response of City01:12:10 Lessons Learned – Training01:18:50 Lessons Learned – Knock & Notice, Culture & Complacency01:29:00 Lessons Learned – Narco Teams v. SWAT Teams and Body Warn Cameras01:32:30 Lessons Learned – Agency Response to These Types of Events01:37:00 John’s Cautionary Advice To Young Cops Working Narco01:40:50 The Need for Debriefs to Avoid ComplacencyLinksCity of Louisville Investigative FilesNY Times Investigation

My guests today are Thor Eells and Don Kester from the National Tactical Officers Association or NTOA which is the largest tactical organization in the United States. Thor is a retired commander from the Colorado Springs Colorado Police Department where he served for 30 years. The majority of which was in tactical response including serving as a swat operator, a swat team leader and a team commander. Thor is currently the Executive Director for NTOA after serving many years as a board member and a trainer. Don is retired from the Pima County Sheriff’s Department in Arizona where he served as a SWAT team operator, team leader, team sergeant, training director and SWAT team commander eventually retiring as a DivisionCommander and Captain. Don is currently the training and education director for the NTOA after many years of service as a trainer and a board member.Timestamps02:00 – Thor’s background and law enforcement career05:00 – Don’s background and law enforcement career11:00 – The mission of the National Tactical Officers Association15:30 – The relationship between state associations and the NTOA20:30 – Police reform movements & the role of the NTOA as information provider37:00 – National standards for special tactics teams46:00 – Maintaining training standards with diverse team capabilities55:00 – The NTOAs role in supporting teams with subject matter expertise1:00:00 – The need to honest self-examination and debriefing1:05:00 – The roots of bad legislation and need for law enforcement to oppose it1:11:00 – No knock warrants, dynamic entries, and the NTOAs position paper1:32:00 – The counter arguments for dynamic tactics and no-knock warrants1:34:00 – Risk management and safety prioritiesContact InfoThor Eells - teells@ntoa.orgDon Kester - dkester@ntoa.orgLinksNTOA | National Tactical Officers Association

DescriptionThis is a very special joint episode between the CATO Podcast and the Debrief hosted by CATO President Brent Strattonand Jon Becker. Our guest today is Medal of Honor recipient Staff Sergeant Earl D. Plumlee. MSgt Plumlee received theMedal of Honor for his actions on August 28, 2013 in Afghanistan. We were extremely lucky to sit down with MSgtPlumlee after he spoke at the CATO Conference this year. In this episode we will hear the story of his amazing actionsthat day, talk about training, preparation, and mindset and learn from a true American hero.Timestamps2:10 Earl’s Career History6:35 Mission of Army Special Forces Units17:00 Arrival at FOB Ghazni20:00 Precursors of the Attack28:40 Day of the Attack33:00 Engagement Begins55:00 Earl and Drew Regroup66:00 Effects of Earl’s Training on His Response77:00 Embracing Weakness to Elevate Performance87:00 Stress Innoculation Lessons Learned90:00 Attention to Detail and Unit Culture98:00 The Meaning of the Medal of Honor to Earl103:00 The Need for Family and Work Life BalanceLinksMedal of Honor Presentation - Remarks on Presenting the Medal of Honor to Master Sergeant Earl D. Plumlee andPosthumously to Sergeant First Class Alwyn C. Cashe and Sergeant First Class Christopher A. Celiz | The AmericanPresidency Project (ucsb.edu)