The Financial Wellbeing Podcast

Episode 63 – Interview with Will Carmichael from Rooster Money The guys are still here for the latest episode of the Financial Wellbeing Podcast. Join Chris, David and Producer Tommo as they chat with Will Carmichael, founder of Rooster Money. Now, Rooster Money may be an app to help teach kids great money habits with their pocket money, but stay tuned – us adults should revisit these lessons too! As ever we also have Ovation client questions and some great money saving tips from #tightasstommo Welcomes and introductions Click here for more information about IFW – the Initiative for Financial Wellbeing The Financial Wellbeing book, can normally be found on Amazon or the Penny Brohn shop. There may be supply issues at the moment, do email us at contact@financialwell-being.co.uk if you cannot find a copy. What is this podcast all about – A chat with Will Carmichael, talking about his app Rooster Money, that is designed to get kids into positive money habits with their pocket money. Helping them understand the value of money in a digital age.Click here for more information about Rooster Money Ovation Client Question – We do try to keep these evergreen so the podcast can help in the future. But . . . what do you do when the stock market goes down by 30%? Tight Ass Tommo, featuring – Washing PowderTinned tomatoesThe price of too much hand wash #tightasstommo tip of the week – leave your items in online shopping baskets for a few days before purchasing. Will Carmichael Interview Who is Will? What does the app do? How do we get our children into good money habits from the start? As adults, 40% of what we do every day is put down to habits So by starting early, by making it practical, by making it contextual, and really talking about money, which, you know, society isn’t very good at, you can put them on a path that will give them habits that will stick with them for life. Click here for a link to the book Hooked by Nir Eyal Technology can be bad, but it can also be used for positive purposes. Why is practical and contextual so important in helping to create good habits? Getting kids involved in the conversation to help them engage with money What age should we start giving kids pocket money? Click here to take a look at the Pocket Money Index The hot debate between giving money to kids and having them earn money! Any psychology between reward for work versus taking away for not doing something? Why positive experiences are key How to balance external pressures to spend money Giving children the chance to build savings for a bigger item and helping them understand their spending along the way. The challenge of context as we use less and less cash Specific tips – Keep talking about moneyGet the kids involved and show them things like utility billsGive pocket money regularly with a saving goal, it can reduce ad hoc spendingShow kids opportunities to earn more If you give kids the opportunity they’ll really get involved and it will ultimately put them in charge of of their money.Will Carmichael, Rooster Money Conclusions from the guys The importance of learning good habits Teaching kids the impact of money on everyday life The need to talk about money and introduce it from a young age Click here for more information on the MoneyBox app Financial Coaching – understanding our relationship with money Transcribe of the Podcast Script: (scroll to the bottom to listen to the episode) David 0:21 Welcome everybody to another one in our series of Financial Wellbeing Podcasts, and this podcast is being recorded during the movement resctrictions of the COVID 19 outbreak, so we’re not quite sure what the conditions will be when you listen to this, but at the point at which we’ve recorded this, we’re all sitting in our separate homes, having a little audio chat and video chat on Zoom. And so hopefully it will make sense when you hear it. My name is David Lloyd, co-host of the Financial Wellbeing Podcast, actor, writer, broadcaster and currently sitting twiddling my thumbs for large periods of time. And with me as well is Chris Budd, who are you Chris? Chris 1:00 You’re an aspiring novelist, David, aren’t you? David 1:03 Well, yes, I’m actually a current novelist, but my novel is yet to be completed. Chris 1:08 That’s a nice way of putting it! So I wrote the Financial Wellbeing book. I’m also chairman of something called the Initiative for Financial Wellbeing or IFW. Any financial advisors, planners, coaches, anybody in the financial services sector, interested in the subject of Financial Wellbeing please come and join us at the IFW. David 1:27 Tommo but who might you be? Producer Tommo 1:29 Somebody who’s never written a book. Chris 1:31 Yet. Producer Tommo 1:32 Yet? Yeah, well, I like the sound of my own voice. So I’ll stick to the the audio means of doing it. Director and Chartered Financial Planner at Ovation Finance. Simple. Done. David 1:45 A reminder that these podcasts are based on the Financial Wellbeing book which Chris has already mentioned, available on Amazon at the moment, but it’s well worth the read. And I clearly I would say that I wouldn’t I. But it’s a it’s a very straightforward, simple book for those of you that . . . Producer Tommo 2:00 Oi! David 2:02 What was that? Sorry? Chris 2:03 Oi, what do you mean simple? David 2:07 Let me finish . . . Chris 2:08 It took me weeks to write that! David 2:09 I know, for those of you like me that aren’t perhaps as well versed in the dark arts of finances, as Chris and Tommo, it actually lays it out in a very easy understand way. That actually demystifies a lot of this stuff around money. So, is that better Chris? Chris 2:27 Much better, thank you! David 2:28 Having massage your bruised ego; tell us tell us what’s on today’s podcast? Chris 2:35 Today we’re going to have a chat with a gentleman called Will Carmichael, founder of something called Rooster Money, which is an app that is intended and designed to give positive money habits for young people. But as we will discover the podcast, I actually think a lot of adults would benefit from it as well. David 2:56 True indeed, yes, a very interesting interview it was to and I am looking forward to talking about that later on. So usually at this stage, we have questions that have been sent in to Ovation, but at the moment things as they are, well, we don’t have any! So instead . . . Producer Tommo 3:09 I think it’s more more to the point that the questions I am getting at the moment might not be relevant when this goes out. It’s a period of flux at the moment. So I want these podcasts to still be evergreen. So the questions I’m getting are really quite in the moment. So I’m not sure how beneficial they would be. Chris 3:30 Okay. I’ll ask you a question. Tommo what do you do when the stock market goes down by 30%? Producer Tommo 3:35 What do you do? You, unfortunately, the the frank answer is you sit on your hands and you wait for these things to recover because they do. But that’s a really dry response. The other way is to speak to a trusted adviser and talk through your worries, if you have them, because it’s natural for us to feel loss, more than gains that’s inherent in our in our psyche. And often, you’ll probably find that although the stock market or the FTSEs gone down by 30%, you’ll often find perhaps your portfolio isn’t 100% invested in the FTSE, or at least I would suggest that you may want to think about if it is in the future. So you might find that the drops have not been quite that much. But remember, it’s temporary. Investing is a long term thing. And it’s about, as uncomfortable as it is, sitting tight, and finding somebody to share those concerns with but sit tight, and this too shall pass. David 4:36 Good advice, Tommo, thanks for that. Now, you talked earlier about us all being in a neverending state of flux, but there are some constant things that remain the same throughout all of this and one of them is of course, Tommo your ability to come up with Tight Ass Tommo Tips. Before we do, Chris, have you got anything at all? Chris 4:56 I do, actually. Yeah. Make your own washing powder. So I was looking the other day – there’s a place local to me in Nailsea where you take your your tub in and they’ll fill up the tub with with washing powder. I was wondering is it possible to do this yourself and it turns out it is! You can do your own fabric conditioner and you can do your own washing powder with some vegetable oil, washing soda crystals and essential oils to give it a nice flavor. So it’s just easy to Google it, I’m not gonna tell you where to go because there’s loads of recipes. But yeah, save yourself a bit of money by making your own washing powder. David 5:30 Right and I have a similar tip, at the beginning of the restrictions, if you remember thinking back now hopefully won’t apply when you listen to this. A lot of people went out and panic bought goods and there were certain things that you just couldn’t get. One of those was tinned tomatoes. So I’m going to tell you how you can make your own tinned tomatoes. What you need to do is get yourself a tin rinse out, wash it out, get yourself some tomatoes, chop the tomatoes up very small and put them in the tin and there you have your old tinned tomatoes. And here’s a chef’s tip, you can actually make that even easier by missing out the tin all together and just chopping up the tomatoes and put them in your food. I’m not sure it’ll save you money, because even though you can buy tomatoes very cheaply from your local green grocer, they’re probably not quite as cheap. But there are certain ways around everything! Chris 6:22 Tell you what, there’s a there’s an anti-Tight Ass Tommo Tip here as well. Talking about that panic buying, a guy in America, there’s a few of them, one particularly got a lot of publicity who bought 17,000 bottles or something like that of hand wash and then tried to sell them on Amazon for $30 each. When the shops run out, and Amazon actually stopped it. They cancelled his account, which meant he had a garage full of hand wash which he couldn’t get rid of. Hopefully taught him a little bit of a lesson. David 6:52 I remember a story from a supermarket, it was either Holland or Denmark, I cna’t remember. They were selling out one bottle of hands sanitizer for €1, two bottles of hand sanitizer for €100. Chris 7:06 A great idea. David 7:08 Right, Tommo, what have you got for us? Producer Tommo 7:11 Well, it was, it’s something that I’ve noticed whenever I’m looking to buy something. Now I take quite a long time to buy things. You can imagine, i’m tight! So when I think I might want something, I take forever to buy it, and it really frustrates my wife. But I noticed that when I look for something online, and I pop it in the basket, and then don’t quite click buy, all of a sudden, a day or so later, you go into social media, or your emails, all of a sudden get these little prompts or promotions for a particular company, that you were looking to buy it from. And it doesn’t happen all the time. But maybe thats worth trying, that if you found something you really like. Pop it in the basket and maybe wait a couple of days to see if things pop up on your social media and emails. Now I know that’s a bit big brother and a bit creepy. But heck, you might be able to save a bit of money if all of a sudden a promotion comes through. David 8:46 Oh, thats not a bad idea, I might give that a go actually. Chris 8:46 That’s just using the algorithms in your favor isn’t it? Now I like that idea a lot Tommo. It always strikes me as really, really silly that the algorithms tell you how to buy things you just bought. Producer Tommo 9:00 I’ve got no concrete evidence to say this will work 100% of the time, but I’ve noticed a few times. Yeah, yeah. There you go, use the algorithms in your favor. Chris 9:09 Good tip. Producer Tommo 9:10 Once again,fantastic for that Tommo. Thank you very much. Right, Chris, the main event. The interview? Chris 9:16 Yeah. So Will Carmichael founder of Rooster Money. I really enjoyed this. It will be a particular interest to people with kids who are trying to train their kids into good habits with money, but it is of interest to everybody because there are lots of things in here that we can all learn from so yeah, have listen to my chat with Will Carmichael. So Will, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast. Will Carmichael 9:38 Thanks very much for having me on, Chris. Chris 9:41 So you’re in New York at the moment. Will Carmichael 9:44 I am. Yes. Chris 9:45 How exciting, I have never been to New York, is it as amazing a city as people say? Will Carmichael 9:49 It’s, it’s a really fun city. Chris 9:52 So for the sake of our listeners, just introduce yourself, and why you are coming on our lovely Financial Wellbeing podcast. Will Carmichael 10:01 Absolutely, so my name’s Will Carmichael, I’m CEO of Rooster Money.Rooster Money is a pocket money app designed to help families with children between the ages of 4-14 to start developing positive money habits. So I’m really excited to come on the show to talk, I guess a little bit about how you can engage your kids in that early stage with money. Chris 10:23 Yeah, and you use the phrase “habits” which is something that comes up a lot on our podcast with good decision making, how we get bad decisions coming back because we have bad habits. And of course you are getting those habits in a very early age. So how do we get our children to good money habits from the very start? Will Carmichael 10:45 I mean, one of the reasons that I really got into what I sort of called financial capability kids, is that opportunity when you think about, you know, over 40% of what we do every day is put down to habit as adults. Then, you know, those habits that we developed early on do stick with us and a lot of research that came out, Cambridge University has done a huge amount on this, around money habits for me by the age of seven. Understanding opportunity cost, understanding, you know, do you have to save towards things. And in the same way that, you know, it’s much easier as a child age six to learn a language, I believe the language of money can be learned at that early stage. So by starting early, by making it practical, by making it contextual, and really talking about money, which, you know, society isn’t very good at, you can put them on a path that will give them habits that will stick with them for life. Chris 11:45 I’d never heard that statistic before, 40% of what we do is down to habits. That’s a fascinating subject. You’ve now got me thinking about what I’ve been doing all day long. Will Carmichael 11:54 There’s a great book that someone called Nir Eyal, who does a lot of lectures at Harvard produced a book called Hooked. And it looked at what do we use Instagram so often? Why did Pinterest become a thing? And that’s really interesting when you look at and we can talk a little bit about how technology can be an enabler and it can also be, it can be an issue, but it shows that those drivers habits will push us into all sorts of different things. So, yeah . . . Chris 12:23 Not always ones that are good for us presumably? Will Carmichael 12:23 No, no. But, I think that’s our huge opportunity around habit formation and you can use that for positive purposes. Chris 12:35 So you said practicle and contextual are important words, in helping to create good habits. Can you describe what you mean by that? Will Carmichael 12:44 So, I guess if it’s the same about teaching your kids about the right, you know, the right way to cross the road safely. You don’t really do that in front of the blackboard. You do it standing by the side of the road and being able talk to them about it. And I very much see that the same with money. It’s a very practical thing. And by making it contextual, as part of the everyday, and I like to talk about the teachable moments, you can make it relevant. I went through so many classes at school, where I just didn’t see the relevancy of what I was being taught. And with money, that’s something you can do. So, you know, good kind of examples of that is utility bills. When you get a utility bill through the door, you can actually start talking to your kids about how that’s calculated, obviously, depending on age, but how that’s calculated, what it costs, why you get annoyed that they leave lights on or the doors open. Same with going to the supermarket and trying to work towards a budget, what it costs for a family shop. It’s those things where you start connecting, okay, money’s involved, it costs this amount and it has this impact. And I think that’s, that’s again, the opportunity and why parents that are amazing vehicle to get kids engaged with money. Chris 14:04 So it’s about involving them in the conversation then? Will Carmichael 14:06 Totally. Fundamentally, you know, if you look at the major issues around money and debt and all those things, a lot of it is, it stems from confidence. And confidence comes from talking about money and understanding it. And that doesn’t mean you need to be Gordon Gekko about it. It just means it’s about having conversations talking about what you’re doing. And and actually, there’s additional research that’s come out to show that, as adults talking to kids about money can actually change how we start to manage money to. Chris 14:38 Yeah, I can understand that. What age would you say we should start giving our kids pocket money? Will Carmichael 14:44 So I think it totally depends. Siblings can be very influential. So older siblings earning pocket money will often mean that the youngest sibling might get onto it a bit earlier. But we tend to find that on Rooster Money, so we produce something called the Pocket Money Index, where we look at when kids start getting it. We find by the age of five or six children are earning it. We have children as young as four getting some pocket money, or you’ve got parents awarding stars instead of money. So when it tends to be a bit more behavior related. So I think you can start really early, you can start with stars, it’s the same concept that you earn something and then you can redeem something with it. And then you move them into money when the time’s right. And as I say that can kind of work that early, some parents will find that they bring them in a little bit later. Chris 15:34 Interesting the use of language there that gave me away. A mistake I suspect I made with my kids, becasue I said give them money you said earn money. Will Carmichael 15:39 It’s always a hot debate, should you should you just give money to your kids? Should that be parameters, should they earn it individually through chores and I think the key thing is to get into a routine and how you would do it. I think giving it regularly is a really good thing. I think having some parameters can really help. So you know we talked about a kind of good citizenship in the home. So you wouldn’t necessarily pay them for every time they take the bins out, but they might get their their allowance or their weekly pocket money, for making sure that they do do those things. And I think that that sense of earning also helps with an understanding of what that value is. You know, I’ve had to work to get this and therefore I’m going to be more considered in what I do with it. Chris 15:57 I know a friend of mine, with an older son about 16, and he was often offered the opportunity to cut the grass for a tenner. And he couldn’t be bothered so his dad was telling me and then he started working doing washing up at the local pub for £4 an hour. And suddenly realized just what a good deal that he’d been turning down all those years, you know, so I could definitely see the reward part! Is there any psychology or any any logic behind whether it’s better to give pocket money or stars or whatever reward for work, as opposed to taking it away if you don’t do something? Will Carmichael 17:12 Yes, I think, I think that’s a really tough one. Certainly as a parent, it’s something you think about a lot. I think that taking it away is, it depends on the context. But that’s not you know, that’s not necessarily usually how it plays out in life, that it will be taken away once you earn it. Like, you might waste it. You may find that if you don’t pay something off, you’ll get charged and effectively, you’ll lose it because you’ll get billed for that. So I think trying to focus on the positivity of earning it, if you’re holding it back, if perhaps you need to realign expectations can often kind of lead to I guess, a more positive experience. Chris 17:58 I think the use of the word positive there is the key isn’t it, you want to try and get people into good habits not necessarily punish them for not doing things the way you want them to be done! Will Carmichael 18:07 Yeah and I think you might see that change a little bit with stars when your starting a bit earlier when it is behavioural although I think you know a lot of kind of, certainly parents on Rooster will very much you know, they’ll give stars but you just won’t get them if you’re not not doing what what they’re trying to get you to do. Chris 18:24 Yeah. So there’s lots of external pressures that exist, especially advertising to kids for example, I’m thinking of, that start encouraging you to buy stuff that you don’t necessarily need. I also think about us and I think back to my kids when they were little used to have their friends commence a birthday party, 20 kids they all bring a present, and all the parents agreed and maximum a fiver which was great, but we still had a long present opening session. Where one you know wrapper will be ripped off with ‘oh look, that’s interesting’ throw that aside, where’s the next one? You know, there was no appreciation because there were just so many. There’s lots of things that are coming in which I think end up making us form bad money habits, arn’t there. How do we inoculate our children from some of those? Will Carmichael 19:12 Yeah, and the birthday one is a really tough one. And I don’t think there’s any silver bullet on it, I think making it clear what’s normal and isn’t, you know, but that also kind of comes with age too. I think, going back to and I always reiterate it, and I always say that those conversations about money and having them regularly and having positive ones really helps with that inoculation. And this is where pocket money can be useful, because if you are giving it regularly then they understand that they can start putting it towards the goal and saving towards that thing and they know that they’ll hopefully get their allowance next week, and they’ll be a bit closer to that. And that means that you can then start having conversations. A classic one you might have seen in a supermarket or experienced yourself is kids want to get a magazine with a plastic toy on the front. And, you know, they’re not really going to read it. They’re actually quite expensive. But rather than just saying no to them, which you will often see a parent going no, I’ve already bought new things, you can actually turned around and go. okay? Do you really want to get that we’re going to, we’re going to, you know, in the case of Rooster Money say we are going to take it off your Rooster Money account, you’re saving up for that Lego Deathstar that you’ve been saving up for five months for, and by getting this, there’s gonna be an opportunity cost, your going to be a little bit farther away from that. And, and that’s an amazing kind of ‘aha’ moment for the kids to understand that you have to save, towards these things. Yeah. And it’s not just instant gratification, birthdays tend to be a little bit more instant gratification. And thats a hard one to steer. But there are definitely those opportunities to show kids with a positive outcome you can get towards that bigger goal. Chris 20:53 My children are a little older than your market. But I think there’s a good example here with my son who’s been doing a part time job, he’s got his own bank account now, but he’s also got really into records. I don’t know where he got that from! So he’s been really enjoying just kinda buying up some records. H e got a statement in, and it showed that he’s spent in the last six months £750. He had no idea that he even earnt that much money, let alone that he spent it, you know! And now he’s a little bit more picky about which record he goes out and buys, so you’re getting that sort of habit and that sort of realization, that engagement in from a very young age. Will Carmichael 21:30 Yeah, and it’s totally that and and, you know, it is also celebrating one of the things that we did in Rooster Money was to show children the previous goals they saved towards and reached because you build up that sense of achievement. And I’ve done these things rather than. . . One key learning that that we’ve certainly seen is that if children get little bit amounts of money, then they’re more likely to go out and get sweets because you can kind of see look, well, I’ve got a couple of quid, I can get something. But it’s as soon as they get to a certain point where they’ve saved a little bit that they suddenly realized, you know what, I can actually get that bigger item, and I can work towards it, and they can see what they incrementally add to it, and they understand where that’s gonna take them. And I think that that is the big opportunity. Chris 22:22 So, that’s an interesting bit of psychology here isn’t there, because if I think of the whats the archetypal thing for kids saving, it’s a piggie bank. And we actually have a cast iron pig, which has got a hole on the top, and we put all the money in it, but we can’t see it. So I have absolutely no idea how full that piggy bank is, how much is in there, and therefore how much closer to my goal is but by actually having on an app and be able to see the number and getting closer to your thing that you want to do. It makes it much more real than I guess. Will Carmichael 22:54 Yeah, and you know, our big challenge now as we become increasingly cashless and, and you know very much in the context of kids, you’re carrying less cash on you. So you can’t hand that over, is how to make it feel tangible again. You know, the way that we pay for things, it is by your watch, you can pay in crypto, you can, you know, order your Uber and then only find out the next day how much you spent they make it seemless, or one click on Amazon. So these are these are challenges, that technology has created. But as I sort of also sort of mentioned earlier, I think the technology can be a great enabler. So that pocket money jar that sits at home or you might end up having a couple isn’t on the school run with you. Was not on holiday with you. And the app can be. And you can absolutely visulise that, you know, you can upload a photo, set the goal, see the progress, understand how much more you got to save and, and that can sort of drive really positive money habits. How it’s like, one of the other things is we encourage children, you can do this with jam jars, if you wanted to do it offline, you can have a spend, save, give pot. And we encourage them to, to break down what they want to do with their money. And over 40% of what children earn on Rooster Money is saved. Now, when you compare that with kind of what we as adults do, and I think the latest reports suggests we might manage to save around 5% of what we earn. Yes, it’s, it’s, it’s to an extreme, but again, it’s reinforcing that habit, that hopefully, will stick with them. Chris 24:31 Thats fantastic. There’s I think a lot of adults who could do with your app! Never mind just kids. There’s habits that have been formed in there which, which we could all do with I think. So just to finish up then, this is fascinating stuff, you have given a few specific tips and ideas if you have any other tips that parents can use and how to help children understand their relationship to money? Will Carmichael 24:56 The more conversations, the better. Make it part of the everyday, as I said those utility bills, when you go to the shops to do the weekly shop, or if you’re doing online, that’s a great opportunity to get your kids involved. You can actually save some money too, because you know, a great one is to say, okay, we need to do an energy switch why don’t you find us the cheapest deal, and I’ll give you a cut. And then you can turn it into a bit of a competition. Giving pocket money regularly could be a really great way of just allowing, as I say that opportunity to get your kids thinking about goals, they want to save towards, it will also reduce pressure on you know, kind of ad hoc spending because you can give them a set amount. This is actually something we talk about is this sort of pocket money paradigm by actually giving pocket money regularly, you as a parent can save yourself some money because you’re just not sort of trying to fit your hand into your pocket every time you’re out shopping. Show children the opportunities to earn. So you might want to give a weekly, regular amount and just say look to get this you need to be that good citizen need to keep your room tidy, need to help keep the kitchen tidy and take the bins out. But you can also say, well, look if you clean the car, whether it’s £10 or, or less, I think my dad paid me about £2 for the car, so he got a good deal! But, you know, by by showing them the extra opportunities to earn, that’s the kind of boost to get them towards that goal early. And encouraging them set goals and targets. Children are really aspirational. And they really do achieve, you know, things and we see, you know, kids saving up for big ticket items, you know, those big LEGO sets and Nintendo Switch, phones, putting money towards, you know, holidays. If you give them the opportunity they’ll really get involved in those things and ultimately put them in in charge of of their money. Yes, with parameters you as a parent can keep oversight, but you know and something that we’ve just built in the UK is a Visa Debit Card, so that you can move children into that, when when they’re ready, and keep those kind of controls and it’s allowing them to go out and make considered spending choices. And ultimately that that may mean some hard lessons from when it’s gone. It’s gone. Chris 27:07 Yeah, that’s fantastic. Well, that’s so interesting. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time and enjoy yourself in New York. Will Carmichael 27:14 Thank you very much. And thanks again for having me on. David 27:18 Fascinating interview sounds like a really nice guy actually. Chris 27:22 And in New York, Lucky chap. David 27:23 I know. Yes. Now, I was struck by a few things in there, actually. And he talked about developing good habits, and how you can develop those, you know, from you very early on. I was also struck that actually good habits come from the same place as bad ones. So, you know, the bad habits that we have, we might drink too much, you know, maybe smoke or eat the wrong sort of food. But do they all come from the same place that says, Well, I must, I must make sure that I look after my money sensibly. And they become ingrained and they become a form of learned behavior. Chris 28:00 Yeah, I would question whether all of those things are bad habits. But yeah, I think that’s 40% 40% of what we do is down to habit. Isn’t that amazing. So to understand these things, you’ve got to actually do something about it for things to change, you’ve got to practically make them change, you know. So that was the thing for me is, is that we have to actually do some stuff. I also really liked the the point about relevancy. He made the comment that a lot of the stuff that he studied at school he struggled with, because he couldn’t see the point. And my kids are just finishing their education and they made this comment a lot of the time, you know, the stuff they learn at say that GCSE level, they couldn’t see what the point of it and at the time I couldn’t really argue with them, I had to be honest. So making anything that you teach to people somehow relevant that they can get the context of it will help them to learn it, and that’s a really good tip. The notion that we need to teach our children that money has an impact on their everyday life, as well, and I was very taken with that. I don’t think when I was a kid, my parents probably thought they were protecting me. So we kind of used to get pocket money. But I never really understood the value of money until I had money of my own, really. So I think that’s a really useful thing to be teaching on children, Producer Tommo 29:18 I worry it is in our national psyche, that talking about money is deemed as crass. And when you’re talking about what something cost, value, etc, is, is stop talking about money, why is it always the focus. And that’s not the point. It’s just introducing people to the concept of money. And I’m really trying to wrack my brain with how I’m going to introduce it to my own son, Toby as he’s he’s three. So I’m not overly concerned right now. But some of the things that I say does he pick up on? You know, I’m Tight Ass Tommo. So do I want him to have all of those behaviors, they can be unhealthy to be too tight and I’ve worked really hard on that, to make sure that actually when I value, spending my money on a certain thing, I’m quite happy to spend it. And that’s taken a bit of a journey for me and I, I’m going to be looking at this in a lot more detail this particular app. And I think anything that helps to educate young people on on what money is about what’s important to them, and what they value I think is terrific. So yeah, all power to their elbow. David 30:20 I had a little look at the Rooster Pocket Money Index, which is really quite fascinating now the amount of money that different kids can get at different ages. And it reminded me and I’ve talked about this on the podcast before, there is an app that I use, I’m sure other similar ones are available called Money Box, where basically it rounds up your money automatically, it collects, it’s the equivalent of loose change down the back of the sofa, or the bottom of your cricket bag. So every time I spent money on my account, it rounds it up to the nearest pound. I’ve been doing that for about six months now, I’ve got almost £500, you know, and that’s not even habit, that’s just I don’t even have to think about that. But it’s just a way of accumulating money in that way. Chris 31:02 One of the things that I’m interested in is financial coaching. Financial coaching is helping people to understand their relationship to money, and usually involves changing and getting healthier habits. And Catherine Morgan, who is one of the executives of the Initiative of Financial Wellbeing is heading up our financial stream. By the way, great Tight Ass Tommo Tip from her, furloughing may or may not still be a thing by the time this podcast goes out. But she suggested that she said to her kids, sorry, kids, but you’re going to have to be furloughed, you’re going to have to get 80% of your pocket money from now on. David 31:37 And they would then come back and say, well the obviously, I’m not allowed to work. Chris 31:44 Then she said, in fact, I took it one step further, I said to the two of them, I’m sorry I’m gonna have to let one of you go! But the serious point here is that financial coaching is all about changing our bad habits with money, what Will’s all about company, Rooster Money is all about is getting those habits right in the first place. I think that’s a fantastic idea. I really enjoyed that interview. David 32:07 Yeah. Okay and I hope you enjoyed it too. And we hope you’re all safe and well at home and we hope also that you will join us next time for another one of our Financial Wellbeing Podcasts.

Episode 62 – Time to Reflect In this episode Chris, David and Producer Tommo share some ideas to think about during lockdown, given what we know about money and happiness. The guys share how they have been spending their time and not their money. They take a look at what we can do right now and what positives we might want to continue after the lockdown. The #tightasstommo is a classic but sensible one – but we will let Producer Tommo off, he is in lockdown with a toddler!!! Welcomes and Introductions To buy the Financial Wellbeing Book and support the Penny Brohn Cancer charity, click here for the Amazon link What is this podcast all about? How are we feeling during lockdown and some practical suggestions of what people can do right now. Tight Ass Tommo Child names, car number plates and lack of spending in a pandemic! #tightassstommo’s tip of the week – bit of a boring one, but great whilst we have time on our hands to sort through paperwork – Specified Adult Childcare Credits Click on this link to go directly to the government website with more details Today’s Topic – what have we all been going through and what can we learn from it? Two things may happen when all this is over Go back to our old ways Or We seize the opportunity to keep the positive changes going How can we all come out of this with a better relationship to money? Tommo & Toby! Everybody is talking about time . . . David, on gardening, writing his novel and his ineffably polite nephew The importance of an emergency fund Our choices when it comes to money and time Charity donations – time and/or money “By focusing less on money and more on time, it is easier to use both of those resources In happier ways.”Happy Money – Dunn & Norton Positive ways the guys have been spending their time What has Producer Tommo learned as a financial adviser? How people at different life stages are reacting in different waysAddressing the worry and confirming it’s ok to worry “This is normal, this is in our DNA to be worried It’s okay. Not everybody will feel as worried as others.” Neil Bage – Be-IQ Click on this link to view the Ovation and Be-IQ Webinar about understanding our behaviours Click on this link to listen to Episode 36 – Understanding our Attitude to Risk with Neil Bage Tommo’s tip – make a note of how you are feeling right now and use this to inform better decisions going forward It’s up to us what positive changes we want to stick with when we get out of lockdown What can we do right now? What is a financial plan? Click on this link to listen to Episode 22 – What Does a Financial Plan Look Like where the guys go into more detail. It’s going to have a summary of objectives.It’s gonna have some sort of a cash flow forecast, or a spreadsheet to see if those objectives are achievable and . . .Some specific actions for how that’s going to be achieved Buy the book for more information! If we’ve got time on our hands, we have a great opportunity to think about what’s important. Thanks to the lockdown the guys recorded the podcast via Zoom, here is a glimpse behind the scenes for you – Transcribe of the Podcast Script: (scroll to the bottom to listen to the episode) David  0:02 Welcome everybody to another one of our Financial Wellbeing Podcasts. And this is rather a special one because normally we are gathered together in Budd Towers, all together in the same room. But we’re recording this one in the middle of the third week of the COVID-19 isolation. So we’re all sitting in our separate houses. I’m at home in my home office, Chris and Tommo, their own respective places. We’re hoping we can get through this without further interruptions from Tommo’s son, Toby, but we’ll see how it goes. Anyway, my name is David Lloyd, writer, broadcaster, sort of co-host of this podcast, Chris, who are you? Chris  0:39 I’m Chris Budd standing in my cabin in the garden where I spend most of my time these days actually. So I’ve been self-isolating for quite a few years. No great shock to me! David  0:48 Yeah, I’m sure your family are absolutely delighted that you have a shed in your garden during these troubling times. . . Chris  0:53 The feeling is mutual, I can assure you! David  0:56 Tommo who are you? Producer Tommo  1:00 Tom Morris, Director and Chartered Financial Planner at Ovation Finance, who kindly put on this podcast for the listening public. And yeah, I’m currently looking at Chris’s fetching headgear that he’s got on to try and make it sound good, but he does look like a little bit of a plonker! But hey we’ll let him off. David  1:20 Nothing new there. Yes, I realized looking at myself, I’m desperate for a haircut, but I haven’t found a barber yet with six foot long scissors! So I’m just having to let it grow long. I used to have very long hair. Well, I might have to revert to that. Anyway, just as well a reminder that these podcasts are all based around the Financial Wellbeing book which Chris has already referred to. And that is generally available. So if you’ve not heard of that before and you’d like a copy, get yourself a copy. It’s available on Amazon. They’re still delivering. It’s very cheap and all the profits go to Penny Brohn cancer care. What’s on today’s podcast, Chris? Chris  1:54 Today, David, we are going to have a chat about how we are all feeling during this lockdown. What we might be learning about money and maybe a practical suggestion or three as to what people might be doing right now. David  2:06 Excellent. Now we usually have a section here where we look at common questions from clients of Ovation Finance, but we’re going to look into that in a little bit more detail later. So instead, let’s move on to probably the prime feature in all of these podcasts #TightAssTommo, where our producer Tommo gives us a hint, or a way of saving money. Chris, have you got one before we come on to Tommo? Chris  2:30 I do. This is a bit silly. It is extremely silly, but why not? It’s a fun one from our old friend of the show Chris Anchors who is @anchors43 who said – “name your child, your current number plate, then keep your number plate and then when they pass their driving 10 you can give them a personalized number plate is a gift. Eat your vegetables EZ67 DCR” David  2:52 That’s brilliant. I’ve got one before we come on to Tommo which is basically self-isolate during a pandemic! I’m not going to the pub. I’m not going to the restaurant. I’m not going to the theatre. I’m not going to the cinema. Which is fortunate really because, you know, in common with a lot of people income at the moment for me, non-existent. So that’s a very good way of saving a little bit of money. Tommo what have you got? Producer Tommo  3:15 Well, I’m going to dust off an old favorite of mine. We are currently indoors with a bit more time on our hands. Well, some of us do anyway, I’m sure we’ll touch on the fact that I’ve not got so much time on my hands with a toddler but there’s another point. And it’s a tip that I’ve mentioned before, but I think it’s worth remembering is we’ve got this administration time on our hands and it’s called the Specified Adult Childcare Credits. Now, quite a mouthful, and we will put a link in the show notes. This is particularly for parents who have a child under the age of 12. I use myself as an example in this – so my mother in law looks after Toby once a week and my wife works and earns enough via her salary to already get National Insurance credits. So what we can do is actually pass on the notional child benefits National Insurance credits to her mum at the end of each tax year, which is great for her because she’s retired now, she’s got a few gaps in her National Insurance credits. So we shift what Lindsay would have got through the child benefit system over to her mom. So that means that she gets an extra state pension without having to put her hand in a pocket. So it’s a really good system. It works for grandparents other relatives that are looking after small children. It’s just a bit of a fill up there for people who are doing the childcare. Who might not necessarily be getting anything for it. Chris  4:50 How does somebody actually get that Tommo? Producer Tommo  4:52 So I will put a link in the show notes, but it’s on the government website. And again, I think I mentioned before the government website these days for this sort of thing is actually really quite good. And what happens is, is that once the tax year is done, you’re able to claim for it, all the details are going to be on the link. I could bore you to tears otherwise with all the details of exactly how to do it, but it’s brilliant, just to put a monetary figure on it. To get an extra year’s worth of credits for your state pension would cost you around about 700 pounds. And that’s actually worth about 250 pounds to you extra a year when you come to state pension age. So some really good deal. David  5:34 Excellent. That’s well worth knowing. Thank you, Tommo for that rather sensible #TightAssTommo tip. Producer Tommo  5:39 Sorry. Chris  5:41 Bit boring if I’m honest. I prefer the one about your wife’s small feet! Producer Tommo  5:45 I should have brushed that one off. David  5:48 Right, Chris, why don’t you introduce our subject for today? Chris  5:52 Okay, Thanks, David. So, it’s a bit of a delicate subject because I want us to reflect a little bit about what we’re all going through at the moment. To see what we might learn from these last few weeks of us all having to be at home. I’ve been speaking to quite a lot of people, I’m sure we all have, as I’ve been part of loads of online meetings. By the way did anybody buy shares in zoom before this all started? David  6:13 My financial advisor didn’t tell me to! Producer Tommo  6:16 Did you hear the story that people thought they were buying zoom, but were actually buying a different company that had sort of the moniker of zoom in as a share. A company that’s completely irrelevant. Chris  6:30 Well, there’s a lesson in that isn’t there? Anyway, I’ve been, I’ve been on zoom all week it’s great. And I’ve been speaking to loads of people. And it strikes me that one of two things is going to happen when we emerge from the other side of this pandemic. Either we are going to go back to old ways, or we’re going to emerge to change in some way. I think we have an opportunity to change. So I’d like to reflect on lessons we might be learning right now as we record this. So we might all come out of this stronger and with a better relationship to money. David  6:58 Sounds good, but why do you call it a delicate subject? Chris  7:02 Well, I don’t want to be preachy about it. It’s a tough time for many people, including some of us. You know, my incomes gone through the floor of my consultancy business. So it’s not about us telling people what they should do. I saw a tweet from some idiot the other day saying, if you’re not learning a new skill or language right now, then you’re missing your opportunity – we’re not going to patronize people by telling them this, things like that. But we’ll just go through a few things that we suggest people might like to think about, given what we know about money and happiness. Producer Tommo  7:30 And I’m gonna share a few things that I’ve learned as a financial planner, both myself and also with discussions that I’ve had with clients. David  7:40 And from my perspective, when I think about how I’m feeling about things, it’s a bit weird. I’ve got a lot of time on my hands and yeah, I’m also finding myself very busy filling that time. Producer Tommo  7:51 You want to try being in lockdown with a toddler. . . David  7:54 Thank you. Chris  7:56 We had a little from Toby earlier on Producer Tommo  7:58 Oh my goodness, because we’re still working full time within Ovation, we’re very fortunate that we’re able to continue what we do, actually probably at the most important time for clients for us to be there. But also my wife’s a teacher so she’s trying to fit in her timetable of doing the work that she needs to do. And then a toddler who bless him needs to be you know, stimulated, given activities to do all of that. It’s Yeah, a busy time in the Morris household. Chris  8:27 Any tips for people with toddlers about, how to get them to expend energy? Producer Tommo  8:31 Oh, do you know usually I’d say just let them off their leash like a Labrador, but of course we can’t really do that! So what can you do? Do you know there is a lot of good stuff on YouTube these little kid yoga sessions or kids exercise sessions. It’s Andy Safari adventures or Andy’s adventures my son’s obsessed with, who does these yoga activities with them so there’s plenty out there. Chris  8:55 Have you found yourself at two o’clock in the afternoon next to your son trying to turn from an acorn to a tree? Producer Tommo  9:02 The sad thing is though, as you can well imagine a toddler is far more flexible than his old man. So he puts me to shame. I let him off the leash, we got a paddling pool out today. That’s a start. Chris  9:16 So I don’t know about you guys, but I find that the one subject, it’s a bit like when you have a baby, everybody talks about sleep. And right at the moment I find that everybody’s talking about time, you might have an employee that’s been furloughed, or a business that’s been mothballed. And that some of those people literally have nothing to do during the day and some of the Tik Tok and YouTube videos coming out as a result are very entertaining! So one way of looking at this situation is that we have an opportunity with the time that we have been given, even if we didn’t actually ask for it. David  9:49 Yeah, I guess that does rather depend on what you do with that extra time. Assuming, of course you actually have any extra time. This would be the case for everyone given it might be like Tommo, you know at home, looking after children, you obviously haven’t got an awful lot of extra spare time to use up there? Chris  10:07 Yeah, exactly. And that’s why we’re just trying to give people things to think about. Because we don’t want to generalize in a situation like this. I did a little survey of a bunch of financial advisors, a group called the Next Gen Planners – a bunch of mainly younger advisors. And I asked them if they were much more busy, a bit more busy, a bit less busy or much less busy. And I was really surprised result was almost equal across the four categories. So some people are much busier. And some people have not much to do. So we either have less time or much more time, so it’s different. What about you, David? David  10:40 Yeah, well, obviously I’m self-employed. I’m used to being at home so from that side of it, nothing new. I mean, I had an interesting thing happened to me just a few days before lockdown. My brother who lives in Saudi Arabia contacted me. He’s stuck in Saudi Arabia. His wife was in China visiting her mom and was stuck in China. Their son Ross, my 16 year old nephew, was at boarding school in Norfolk, but the school was closing. So he didn’t have anywhere to go, he couldn’t get home. I drove to Norfolk and picked him up and brought him back. So he’s been staying with me for the last few months now. And I have to say, initially, I thought, oh, how’s that gonna work, you know, 16 year old in the house, but actually, he’s been an absolute diamond. And we’re getting on really, really well. But what we realized fairly early on was one of the ways of making that work was we need to set routine for ourselves. So he’s been doing great work around the garden, I’ve set lots of little tasks, and a big patch of lawn. He’s de-turfed it, he’s dug compost into it, he’s turned it into a vegetable garden, we put a fence around it. I’ve spent more time in the garden than I ever have at this time of year. So I’ve been doing more stuff in the garden. I’ve gone back to my novel, which I’ve been writing for about three years now. And I’d ground to a halt with it. Graham Greene, the novelist set himself a target of always writing 500 words a day, and I thought, well, if that’s good enough for Greene, then it’s good enough for me. So I’m writing a minimum of 500 words Today, but it’s usually near 1000. So all of a sudden, I’m cracking on with my novel, I’ve only got about 15,000 words to go in the first draft, I’ll be done. So that’s very exciting. So there are upsides to all of this. The downside is, I don’t get a chance to see my partner Gail, she’s a doctor, her daughter lives with her and she’s working in a care home. So we’ve decided we can’t really spend any time together. And that’s been really, really difficult. But actually, you know, we’re getting through and we’ll hopefully all come out the other end. And I’m trying to make sure that my wellbeing remains good, but certainly my Financial Wellbeing is obviously not so good. But fortunately, I’ve got a bit put by so I just hope that by the time that all runs out, the government will have come up with a financial compensation scheme for which I qualify, because at the moment, there isn’t one. Chris  12:46 I think that’s going to be one of the big things that people will learn out of this, is the importance of an emergency fund. Having three months expenditure sitting in a bank account doing nothing is like day one of financial planning school so hopefully people who didn’t have that will now make that one of their aims over the next few years is to build that up. But I want to just refer to a book called Happy money by the authors of Dunn and Norton, because really interesting – one of the five areas that they talk about with money and happiness is the effect of decisions and depending on whether we view those decisions from the perspective of time, or money. So they say that if we view our choices as being how we’re spending our time, they tend to be intrinsic focusing internally, or what makes us happy and things like social relationships. But if we focus our choices on money, then those choices will be less likely to be about our wellbeing. Now, there are quite a number of sources and research pieces. What caught my eye was if you ask people to donate to charity, rather than saying, ‘Can you give some money to charity,’ you start by saying ‘Are you able to give any time to that charity.’ Then, even if they can’t, when they do donate money, they end up donating more money, if they have first considered it in terms of time. So if we see time as money, you know that old, I don’t remember who said it first of all, but time is money, then we’re actually reducing our happiness. So for many of us who do have more time on our hands at the moment, but of course, we’ve got less money. So perhaps there are some like me that have had speaking engagements cancelled and furloughed, and people are receiving less income. So if we look at your choices, David, that you’ve just described, are they based upon money or time? Now I think it’s fair to say that nobody, apart from JK Rowling writes a novel for money today. So that decision to go back to your novel that’s about time I imagine, isn’t it? David  14:32 Yes, it is. I mean, I hope obviously, I mean, there are people that make money from novels,  I don’t anticipate that I will make as much money, if any, from my novel as I do from writing for television, which does pay very well. But primarily, it’s about time. It’s about doing something nice. I always said I would do and I’ve never done before. And I’ve just wanted to get to the point where I can turn around and say, yeah, I’ve written a novel. So that’s the main reason I’m doing I’m doing it because I’ve got the time to do it. I’m doing it because I’m enjoying doing it. If as a result of that, I do make a little bit of money from it, you know, three and six, whatever that might be. That would be great. It might become an international bestseller! Who knows? But that is not my prime motivation. I’m doing what I’m doing because I want to get it written. Chris  15:26 Yeah, yeah. And likewise, the gardening I guess, you know, you’re turning your lawn into a vegetable patch. That’s fantastic. That’s gonna save you money in the future. That’s a healthy thing to be doing. David  15:36 Exactly. So I, you know, I enjoy gardening, but it’s not at the top of my list of priorities. Now I’ve got time I’m rediscovering how nice it is to spend an hour or so every day. Producer Tommo  15:47 Supervising somebody else doing it. . . David  15:52 Yeah, exactly. You know, he gets up before I do, and works whilst I am still in bed. But I’m doing my bit as well. Producer Tommo  16:00 That’s boarding school, that if he’s up early in the morning, well . . . David  16:03 Yeah, I know. Listen, it’s given him a fantastic grounding that school, and you know he’s ineffably  polite, incredibly polite, hard working – usually gets up at six in the morning and goes to the school gym. So just getting up early in the morning and some gardening instead. Producer Tommo  16:17 I do remember because I called you a few weeks back to touch base. And I think you must have been in the car driving back from picking him up. And I do remember you were you were excited to spend some time with him. But at the same time, I could hear the quiver in your voice. I’m glad it’s working. David  16:36 It’s working out really well. Im glad to say really well. Chris  16:39 But the message is – is that although it’s not easy, if we can see this as an increase in our time rather than a reduction in our income, it might make the situation easier, easier to handle. And if I just conclude with a quote from the book of Happy Money, “By focusing less on money and more on time, it is easier to use both of those resources In happier ways.” Producer Tommo  17:02 Yeah. And I’m gonna use one example for me now, as I said, still working as normal. But one thing I have in my routine now and have in my life, is every meal time I’m sat down with a family. You know, phone switched off, outside world switched off too, three times a day, breakfast, lunch and tea/dinner. I’m able to really have had some quality time with my family, which wouldn’t necessarily happen before because of commuting normal working day. So yeah on the subject of time, I’m gaining that back, which is great. David  17:35 Well, one positive that I’ve noticed as I’ve been walking the dogs, or perhaps doing my daily or every other day run that I do, the number of families you see walking out together in a way that they wouldn’t normally be doing. And some of them might be struggling a little bit but you get the impression that for many of them, actually, it’s probably a pleasant surprise to realize that they can do something as seemingly mundane as just going for a walk together. Chris  18:00 Because what we’ve got to do, the challenge is, can we keep some of these good habits going? Post lockdown. So there we go, just a little thought about time and that book Happy Money is a really, really interesting book on the subject of Financial Wellbeing. David  18:12 Right, so Tommo, you must have been, when not trying to manage your toddler, very busy over the last few weeks with this, you know, stock market crash and everyone at home with more time to worry about it. Is there anything particularly that you’ve learned from that experience? Producer Tommo  18:27 There’s quite a few things I’ve learned from that experience. The first one being is not everybody feels the same way about what’s going on is the big one. I have spoken to some clients who have been understandably nervous about seeing their pot reduce in value. But as I like to reiterate, this is temporary, you still own the same amount of everything. It’s just worth a little less right now. And this is what happens with investing and why it’s important to have cash set aside to make sure that you’ve got time to allow things to recover and just reminding why we’re invested in the first place is often to meet our longer term objectives and future lifestyle. But a lot of people that I’ve spoken to, this is unique. It’s not like the stock market is the only thing that’s worrying people. A lot of the time, they’re not that fussed with what’s happening with their pension or their ISA or investments, because to be quite frank, there’s bigger things going on. So it’s, it’s been about learning how people have reacted during this time. It’s been fascinating, really, and it’s something that that I will take on, once we come out of this, because this will pass, I’m convinced of that. David  19:42 It’s been interesting for me, because I’m 65 this year, next year will be 66. Clearly, that’s how it works! And I’ll qualify for my state pension then. So in my own mind, I thought well, one more year of working, you know, pretty much full on and then I can start to make a few choices about how much work and I know Tom, you and I have discussed this. And actually, what’s happened is that I’ve got an early insight into what retirement might be like. And I have to say, if it wasn’t for the financial uncertainty, I’d rather like it! But I’m at a different stage in my life than you are or even Chris is, we’re probably at three different generations. And so it’s probably easier for me to say that I think if I was, you know, younger and still had much of my future ahead of me rather than behind me, then I would be a lot more worried I suspect about the implications of this for me and my family. Producer Tommo  20:33 Yeah, I think we’re touching on how everybody has different circumstances, different situation’s, at different points in their life and reacts to things differently. Now one thing I’m saying when I’m when I’m hearing people with that anxiety on the phone, all that worry and that concern is just letting people know it’s okay to feel like that. That is completely normal. I had a fascinating chat with Neil Bage. Who was a guest on the podcast a while back, and we did a little bit of a webinar for our clients. And he touched on this and he put it brilliantly said, “this is normal, this is in our DNA to be worried It’s okay. Not everybody will feel as worried as others.” So that is important to address that particular point. But yeah, people are in different stages or to be to be frank, those that are a bit younger, if with focusing just on their pension pot building up, they’re not that fussed, because ultimately, they are probably gonna have some regular contributions going in each month, that’s going to be buying things a little bit cheaper, their okay, it’s miles away ‘till they need it. Those approaching retirement are probably a little bit more nervous about what’s going on. But then again, you put things in place and plans in place to make sure that even if there is a wobble in the market, they’re still okay, we still buy them time to let things recover. But it’s fascinating that you’re at that point where you’re making this transition or we’ve been discussing this transition and you’re been forced to experience it. And that’s going to inform so much of our discussions going forward. So I think a big tip I would give to people is just note how you’re feeling right now. Maybe get a pad of paper, scribble it down. How are you feeling? How are your emotions? What are the positives about this particular period of time? What are the negatives? Because then you can look back in a year. And actually, how was I feeling in that time? How was I making decisions? Can I learn from that? You know, I’ll use an example – if you’re really not enjoying this experience that the markets going down, does that inform how you should be investing once we come out the other side of this? So it’s just really this is a real life experiment going on. David  22:51 I think this comes back to Chris’ point earlier, which is – this going to fundamentally change the way in which we think, not just about our investments, but about life in general. I think in some ways it will in other ways. Sadly, I suspect it won’t. But we won’t know until we come out the other side. Chris  23:08 But it’s up to us, David. That’s the thing. It’s up to us whether it does or not. That’s Tommo’s point. There are some things in society that may or may not change, but society is only made up of the collective will of the people within that society. So if we all have a different attitude towards our money, then society will change a little bit. Governments will change. I wonder if, you know, someone like Boris Johnson, who’s got his critics, I have been one of them. We wish him well, right at the moment, obviously. And I wonder if somebody like him will come back to politics and just see things a little bit differently, because this is serious stuff. And maybe it’s time to stop arguing between politicians and start trying to do common good, you know. Let’s not get too much into that one. Producer Tommo  23:48 Yeah, I know where you are going with this. I suspect the way that people are still using politics at this time to stick each other with makes me think that it’s not going to be quite as rosy. Chris  23:58 But that’s up to us. I’m sure, and if we as people say, “You know what we’ve had enough of that,” then it will have to change because you know the old expression you get the government that you deserve. But anyway, that’s a political thing. So let’s not get too much into that. But whether we change is up to us, that we control whether we will come out of this with a different attitude to money or not. David  24:19 Yeah, okay, so thanks for those thoughts Chris. Have you got any other tips about what we can be doing while we’re stuck at home what other people might be able to fill their time with? Chris  24:29 Yeah, I’m very conscious that our, we call Tommo the producer, he’s not the producer – Tammy’s the power we all know that . . . Producer Tommo  24:37 It’s just a fancy name because I don’t know what else to call me! Chris  24:46 Tammy made a comment that a lot of Ovation Clients have been saying to her, have been asking “What can we do?” They’ve been asking for things to do. So at the heart of Financial Wellbeing, number one of the five list of financial things that constitute Financial Wellbeing is Having a Clear Path to Identifiable Objectives. Which in very simple terms means having a financial plan. Now, this is quite an interesting one for me, what actually is a financial plan? If listeners to this podcast, have financial advisors, what would they actually pull out of their file or open in a Word document that they can point at? And say that is my financial plan? David  25:27 I was just gonna say If only we had a Chartered Financial Planner we could ask? Tommo you know anybody? Producer Tommo  25:34 No, I’m afraid I’m afraid I’m at a loss . . . David  25:36 Do you think then, you’ll do? Producer Tommo  25:41 A financial plan, it’s an interesting one. It’s something that you can tangibly pull out and go, right. This is where I’m trying to get to. And this is how I’m trying to achieve it. And we use a document. We call it the Financial Wellbeing Plan when we first start out with our clients. And every year we update that. And it could be a simple one pager, where it just goes – right, these are where we’re trying to get to. And this is what we’re doing with your finances to get you there. And this is what you’re going to be doing with your life to achieve these things. So it needs to be stated. You need to update it, at least every year. We have a saying Ovation, “you’re going to see us at least once a year, whether you like it or not.” And I stole that one from Chris . . . Chris  26:28 You stole all your lines from me! Producer Tommo  26:31 But that’s incredibly important because it’s not just about focusing on the plan, its planning. As we are discovering right now, it’s about updating the plan. It’s evolving the plan. So it’s having this initial bedrock that we use, and then iterations of that as we go forward. Chris  26:53 So the financial plan will have three parts to it. It’s going to have a summary of objectives. It’s gonna have some sort of a cash flow forecast, or a spreadsheet to see if those objectives are achievable and then some specific actions for how that’s going to be achieved. Producer Tommo  27:07 Didn’t Chris put it so much more eloquently than me? I really went on waffle then! The rest of what I just said ignore – Chris nailed it. Chris  27:17 This is what the Financial Wellbeing book does. So just to give ourselves a little plug again, but bear in mind all the proceeds go to charity, the Financial Wellbeing book was written so that people can make their own financial plan. So if you want something to do buy the book, go through it and this is where to do it, you read through the Financial Wellbeing book without writing too much then but then when you get to the end you start again and then you go through it again like a workbook because you need to read through it first of all to get your thinking and then you go through it practically so if people want something to do right now buy the Financial Wellbeing book and work through it. Producer Tommo  27:52 Buy it directly from Penny Brohn and all the proceeds go to them so that works. Yeah, it is, you touched on it and I’ll repeat again Chris, is talking about, it’s constantly going over it, re-evaluating it, because life does change. But what a perfect time, we’ve got time on our hands, we have a great opportunity to think about what’s important. David  28:13 Well, life does change indeed, and who knows, by the time this podcast goes out where we’ll be at as a country, so wherever you are, or whatever is happening in your life while you’re listening to this do stay safe, and do tune in again for another one of our Financial Wellbeing Podcasts.

Episode 61 – Coping With Anxiety During Lockdown with Nick Elston We have a very special interim podcast for you. Special guest Nick Elston is back for a chat with Chris Budd to talk about anxiety and our well-being during the pandemic lockdown. The two talk about what you can do when stuck at home worried or anxious in order to improve your mental well-being. Welcomes and Introductions Click here to listen to Episode 55 – Overcoming Anxiety with Nick Elston Nick Elston is a public speaker and talks about anxiety from personal experience Survival mode – we will get through thisEvolution mode – adapting to be stronger from this situation We don’t know what the future holds, each day we are creating a new reality together Focus on what we can do today Our control has been taken away? New dynamics of homeworking The courage to set boundaries – to be left alone Definition and understanding of of introvert/extrovert Positive mental wellbeing Why is it important to keep in contact at the moment? There is empowerment with us all being in this together and learning as we go How are you feeling right now? Feeling the fear at a subconscious level, leaving us tired as we spend energy on this worry Why we need to keep moving Tell people how you are feeling – get the help you need in order to give back to others Feeling Thankful Motivation be proactiveschedule timepersonal development Finding Time ring-fence time for yourself and /or spending time with your partner Every storm runs out of rainNick Elston Things may not go back to what they once were – we have a chance to make the world a better place Thank you for listening to The Financial Wellbeing Podcast – Stay safe and keep well We have over 60 podcasts for you to listen to whilst at home, why not have a listen to these – Episode 54 – Mental Wellbeing & Money (Further help with worry and anxiety) Episode 50 – Wellbeing and Writing with Amanda Prowse (If not now, when? Some inspiration to start writing that book!) Episode 31 – Dealing with Financial Shocks (This lockdown has been a shock on finances)

Episode 60 – Interview with The Financial Healer, Mark Bristow How damaging can our relationship with money be? Chris, David and Producer Tommo have a chat with Mark Bristow, The Financial Healer, about how we can uncover and challenge our self-limiting beliefs. From great #tightasstommotips to David’s excessive use of Bristol Rovers player names this is a podcast to keep you entertained! Welcomes and introductions I’m not that modest (the quiet one who does all the work – Tammy Devonald) Initiative for Financial Wellbeing update – Click here for more information about IFW  What is this podcast all about – An interview with Mark Bristow, author of the book The Financial Healer. Talking about our relationship with money and how it can cause stress and unhappiness. Tight Ass Tommo Featuring January weddings, the risks of stalking and takeaway ice cubes! Many thanks to Chris @Ankers43 / Nick Lincoln @HatTipNick / Neil and Sandy Bage Two old guys reminisce about TVs, with rentals, thefts and wonky aerials. #tightasstommo Tip of the week – National Trust membership and wellbeing Mark Bristow Interview What is financial coaching? Financial wellbeing and your relationship with money If you go to a financial coach – make sure they are trained and have experience “Increase your self worth to increase your net worth” Mark Bristow David Lloyd’s reputation precedes him! Chris and Mark know each other from training days, and although they went different ways, have ended up in similar areas How did Mark get into financial coaching NLP – Neuro Linguistic Programming How Mark incorrectly judged himself and found he was in the wrong job – what he did next Achievement without recognition When it is all about gaining money, and you gain that money, what then? Emotional Freedom Technique Click here to find out more on The Financial Healer book The book is all about self worth and how to get to your core self-limiting beliefs How to uncover those self limiting beliefs? Challenging Self-Limiting Beliefs blog post from Chris Bruce Lipton & Epigenetics – the biology of belief External sources play a large part in forming our beliefs when young, and we seek to support them. What memory is causing our belief? How can we rework the memory with a positive outcome? Marks childhood memory creating a mistaken belief, and how it followed him into adulthood The ‘there’s someting missing’ conundrum Believing in ourselves What one thinkg can we do differently? Catch a negative view and ask yourself, is it true? If you would like to purchase a copy of The Financial Wellbeing Book please click on this link to visit Penny Brohn UK shop Conclusions from the guys How writers come up with names “If we talk to friends like we talk to ourselves we wouldn’t have many friends” Know thyself Click here for more information on Mark Bristow