The Financial Wellbeing Podcast

Episode 72 – Financial Psychology with Anne Abbenes Why does talking about money cause such anxiety? Special guest Anne Abbenes takes a look at the psychology behind what is happening in our brains when we are dealing with our finances. With a great Bage’s Behavioural Bias and some questionable #tightasstommo money saving tips, we have plenty of takeaways to help you make better financial decisions in this episode. . . Welcomes & Introductions Click here for more information on Chris Budd’s booksLink to the Initiative of Financial Wellbeing website Click here for more information about Producer Tommo Link to David’s book What is today’s podcast all about? A chat with Anne Abbenes, a certified financial behaviour specialist and president of the Financial Psychology Institute of Europe. We will be looking at how our brains react when we start talking about money and how we can improve our financial decisions. Bage’s Biases Every episode , Behavioural Finance expert, Neil Bage, is going to be giving us his money behavioural tips. We are hardwired to make bad decisions about money because we have biases built into us from our experiences through life. We will keep hearing from Neil to help us recognise some of these behavioural biases and hopefully lead us to making better financial decisions. – Link to Episode 36 – Understanding our attitude to risk– Link to Episode 21 – Financial capability– Link to BeIQ | Beam App This episode – Probability Neglect #TightAssTommo Featuring lazy charity shop shenanigans, questionable oysters and helping to avoid food waste. Click here for more information on Odd Box.co.uk Interview with Anne Abbnes What is Financial Psychology? What happens in your brain when you make a financial decision? reptilian/mammalian areas of the brainour inner Einsteintalking about finances with others leads to anxiety Why does our brain react to a financial question in fear? Money is still a taboo subjectevolution wise, money is still a relatively new concept for our brains to deal with An illustration on why continuing education about psychology and money is important Our brains are wired for survival, looking at what comes next, not long term thinking What can we do to make better financial decisions? Exploring our relationship with money Moneyscripts by Brad Klontz Is it possible to challenge yourself? Can awareness be enough? The Financial Psychology Institute of Europe Financial behavior is determined by subconscious money beliefs. Sound financial decision making is hampered by unhelpful and sometimes destructive money beliefs. The Institute is helping professionals to stimulate individuals & groups improve their financial health by providing insight in psychological aspects, emotional barriers and destructive financial behaviors that inhibit financial and emotional happiness. Click here for more information about Anne Abbenes and the institute Conclusions from the guys Do you have any financial wellbeing questions you would like us to answer? Or do you have a #tightasstommo money saving tip you would like to share with our listeners? If so, let us know by going to Twitter @Finwellbeing or email – contact@financialwell-being.co.uk If you would like to purchase a copy of The Financial Wellbeing Book please click on this link to visit Penny Brohn UK shop Transcribe of the Podcast Script: (scroll to the bottom to listen to the episode) David Hello everybody and welcome to another one in our series of financial wellbeing podcasts. My name is David Lloyd, broadcaster, writer, actor, man about town and I am joined by Chris Budd, hello Chris . . . Chris Your not man about town at the moment! David I am stuck at home. Chris tell us a little bit about yourself. Chris I wrote a book called The Financial Wellbeing Book. A few other books – The Eternal Business about employee ownership. We’ve got the novels, got another novel coming out soon so we’ll come back to that in future podcasts and chairman and founder of The Initiative for Financial Wellbeing, so financial wellbeing, money and happiness is kind of one of the things I think about quite a lot in life. David Well fortunately because that’s what this podcast is all about! And Tom is what expertise, do you bring to the table? Producer Tommo Not a lot to be honest with you. No, I have many years as a financial planner, I am a Chartered Financial Planner and also a director over at Bristol based financial planning firm Ovation Finance, and like Chris, I am the director of The Initiative for Financial Wellbeing. So yeah, I’d like to think I have some expertise to bring to the table. I feel it’s quite hard to say that out loud, but I’d like to think that I know a fair bit about this topic. David Well, I’d like to think that too, given that you are my financial advisor. Chris David, I’ve been doing a bit of thinking recently based on a book called How to Write One Song by Jeff Tweedy, the main man for Americana group called Wilco, and he starts his book off by talking about the difference between who you want to be and what you want to do. And I think that’s just such a fascinating idea because Tommo is undoubtedly an expert in financial wellbeing, and one of the best Chartered Financial Planners in the UK etc etc. But that’s not who he wants to be, it’s what he does. And so we get to judge him because of what he does and we can therefore say who he is being, but he obviously doesnt like to say about himself. I think that’s such an interesting idea. Jeff Tweedy talks about how, when he was nine, he used to tell everybody that he was a songwriter because that’s what he wanted to be. And then by the age of 12 he thought ‘I better actually write some songs’ because he told everybody he was a songwriter but hadn’t actually written anything. So we did. So, what you do and what you want to be is such a fascinating concept, it talk about it for ages. David Well I think who Tommo wants to be is Joe Root actually! Producer Tommo Time stamp, and we are recording this over and over in India and, yeah, a big cricket fan and this is actually going to be one of my tips in the moment so I shan’t spoil it too much but Joe Root has just scored 100, not out, staggering readiness 300s in 3 tests. Thats . . . anyone who’s not into cricket, you wont know anything about it, I get it. But if you do like cricket, is an outstanding achievement. David As a point of information Tommo, you did just say we’re recording this over in India. I think there should have been a comma in there. We’re recording this, meanwhile over in India. Producer Tommo Right. Yes, thank you. David Let’s move on, then. Chris what’s happening in our podcast today? Chris Today, David, we are going to have an interview with Anne Abbenes, who I will tell you a little bit more about later, but she’s very much into financial psychology. David Before we move on to that let’s have the first of our two regular features. The first one being Bage’s Behavorial Biases. An old friend of the podcast behavioural finance expert Neil Bage give us a one minute introduction to a different behavioural bias that effects how we make decisions about money. Neil Bage Probability neglect. There is a simple truth that underpins this behavourial bias, and it’s that humans are really bad at assessing risks. We are generally so bad at this that we assume that common activities we engage in, like driving a car, are safer and unrisky than less common activities we engage in, like flying in a plane. Now one of the reasons that people brains get messed up like this is because we also have a tendancy to confuse probibility with possibility. So when it comes to financial decisions or investing money, is there a posiblity of me loosing money – of course there is. But that’s not the question you should be asking. You should seek to understand the chance, the probibility of loosing money and potentially how much. This conversation is part of a risk taking discussion that any good financial planner would explore with you in detail. David Excellent. Well I have nothing to add to that. The great thing, I think about Neil’s biases he expresses them, you know, within the one minute, so clearly and succinctly. I thought that was great. Okay, let’s move on then to the next of all regular features #tightasstommo. Before we get today’s tip, I’ve got one for you. We’re recording this early February. I’ve come off the back of dry January, I’ve saved myself, without going into the exact details of how much I spend on booze. Myself and my partner both gave up for a month, and I’ve saved myself an absolute fortune. So, if you want to, if you want to save a little bit of money, stop drinking for a month. Producer Tommo That would do it, that would do it. Probably bought yourself an extra couple of months, life as well so . . . David Yeah definitely, definitely. Yeah, Chris have you got anything for us today? Chris I do David, it’s not a serious suggestion. I hope it’s not a serious suggestion! It comes from an Australian website called The Cusp. and they suggest that if you need your clothes dry cleaning, then donate them to a charity shop, wait a week and then buy them back. I’m not actually sure if I would save you any money. I think it is possibly more of a lazy way, a very expensive way to get your clothes washed. David I like supporting charity aswell. Tommo, main man, what have you got? Producer Tommo I have a couple one that I thought was a bit of a giggle. I got this from a friend of mine Rich Ellis via the Viz comic, and he put this on Twitter – save money on expensive oysters by drinking seawater from an ashtray. Okay, why not. So that did make me chuckle. I do have a serious one, there is a website that is worth going to check out, and that’s called oddbox.co.uk. Concept and this is, something we talked about before, is that there are fruits and vegetables out there that don’t quite look as they should do as we’re used to seeing in a supermarket. And what they do is they get these throw aways is the wrong work. Where they haven’t cut the mustard because there might be a wonky carrot, or a wonky courgette, whatever it might be, but they put these, they package them into a box, and you can get them delivered to your home so it’s saving on food wastage. And a pretty good deal, along the way as well so that’s oddbox.co.uk. David Great one. In fact now most of the major supermarkets now will do that they’ll give you the option to buy wonky carrots, you know that might just take a little bit more peeling, but they remain essentially carrots. So I’m all for that, I think there’s a whole load of nonsense around having to present our food. We are wasting an awful lot of food. Producer Tommo Absolutely and that’s definitely what they’re trying to deal with. And I will caveat that at the moment it’s London in the southeast, but that’s an awful lot of your country to at least start looking at this so hopefully that will branch out, like, save the planet save money. Fantastic. David There’s a positive message to tuck into. Our interview, Chris who have you chatted to this time? Chris Right, we have a chat with Ann Abbenes, who is a certified financial behaviour specialist. She is also president of the Financial Psychology Institute in Europe. She’s not a for profit organisation, so just our kind of person. So let’s have a listen to my chat with Ann. Chris Ann, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast. Anne Abbenes It’s a pleasure to be here Chris. Thank you. Chris I think it might be a good idea to just give us a brief introduction to all the things that you do around personal finance. Anne Abbenes I work with a combination of finance, psychology and law. And that just happens for me to work like that. And I’m educated as finnancial planner, a psychologist, and also in law but I just make a combination of it. Chris Thats a combination that we’re really interested in, how do those two things come together, it’s fascinating. The, the term that you use to put this together is Financial Psychology. So what is Financial Psychology? Anne Abbenes Financial Psychology is the integration of finance and the whole field of psychology. I assure you of course you’ve heard of behavioural finance, I read your book. And behavioural finance is based on cognitive psychology. Cognitive psychology is something which is developed in a lab environment. And just about our cognition, that’s part of our brain which is learning, and all those kinds of things. And there’s more psychology to us humans and clinical psychology is the whole field of psychology. So financial psychology is also part of behavioural finance and the rest of it is the whole field of psychology you apply to finance. Chris So one of the things that I know you’re, you’re an expert in is neuroscience. Before we start looking at neuroscience and money. What is neuroscience? Anne Abbenes Neuroscience here you have the whole definition of a part to keep it simple, it’s just a seeing in, what’s happening inside your brain. And I think neuroscience scientists will kill me if I put it this way, but I always as – it’s how your brain works that are kind of biology in your brain and how the neurons are reacting and acting. And that’s the base of our behaviour, so how the brain is wired. And you can apply that also into finance. Chris Okay. Okay, let’s do that then. So, so what is actually happening in your brain when you need to make a financial decision? Anne Abbenes It’s with every decision, and with finance, it’s just a little bit more complicated. When your financial advisor or a financial planner is talking to you, he’s talking to your prefrontal cortex. This is where your thinking takes place. If you look at the brain, we have our reptilian brain that’s the oldest part, and our limbic system that’s the reptilian brain, and our mammalian brain. And they are in charge, as well what’s happening, then we are anxious and money, just causes fear. And when we are anxious or when we are have to take a decision. You have to talk to the part of the brain which is in charge, and the part of the brain which is in charge are the mammalian and reptilian brain. And then we are anxious. When we make a financial decision, we just have to know how the brain works, a short explanation is a simplified model that’s the triune brain, the triune brain is our reptilian brain that’s the first part that comes alive. The second part is our animal brain. And the third part is our inner Einstein. That word a professor of me, my mentor told me that clause and I just thought everybody knows what an Einstein is. When we make decisions, and a financial adviser or planner you are for just recently, and with logic and explaining things but that’s the wrong part of the brain, you are approaching. The part which is in charge are the reptilian and mammalian brain, and our brain is just wired like that over a million years. And at the moment, we take the financial decision. A lot of people are anxious because finance is more intimate than other things and it’s real big taboo. So, when a person enters your office as a financial adviser then they are scared. They have a lot of high anxiety. For even talk about money. So, when the level of anxiety increases. Then just inner Einstein, is the captain but he has nothing to say, and the reptilian/mammalian brain takes over. So, you have to speak to that part of the brain and that’s where the emotions are and then our other reactions are. And that brain just doesn’t pick up information and that’s how you could survive as a species, because in the Stone Age, that you hadn’t have any time for is that rope or is that a snake. Is that, is that a bush or is that a tiger, you just have to do something. So you flee, you fight or you freeze. And if you don’t do that, yeah, then you won’t survive. So it’s very important. Just not only to talk to, talk to the Einstein but talk to the whole brain and that’s something which is often forgotten. Chris So I’d like to know how we do that in a moment, but first a couple of thoughts or questions. What is it about money that makes it a fearful thing to us, then why does the brain react to a financial question by fear? Anne Abbenes That’s a good question, Chris. Money is still a taboo. And what I found out I thought oh maybe it’s because of the heritage of money because I know in Holland a few hundred years ago if you were in debt you’d get literally scaffolded or you went to jail. But money is really a taboo subject. And we also learned from our parents that certain topic to talk about, when people are getting married they talk about everything, we see real life soaps, every day on television, we hear it on the radio, we talk about everything, about our sex life about our, our health, health problems, but not about money. So, it’s our heritage and money is for our brain, money is brand new. The stock market is from the 15 century, so and our brain is millions and millions of years old. So our brain has to get used to the idea of money. So it’s, it’s the only thing to think about, oh I have to go to the financial planner, that’s, that’s all. That alone is increasing our anxiety Chris And financial planning is a very new discipline isnt it? Were talking decades only really that financial planning is out in the public so to speak. Anne Abbenes Yeah that’s true and what’s also funny what I found out, which is funny. If you ask a financial planners. I had to explain for continuing education programme, I had to explain why emotions and why psychology is important. They said, Oh no, that’s not true and money isn’t a taboo, what are you talking about? And there are four gentlemen in front of me. And they, and I said okay, okay you don’t think it’s too important. Okay, let me do a quick test and they said yeah, that’s okay. And so okay write down the amount which is in your bank accounts, and they just, they did it. And after that, I said, Okay, please, one by one, tell out loud, what’s on the piece of paper in front of you and they just refused. And they said I was rude and how could I ask that. And I said, Okay, yeah, that’s my point. So it’s really a taboo and, yeah, we just have to take that into account when we are giving financial advice to other people, Chris Yeah that’s that’s a great illustration, did they accept the point, out of interest? Anne Abbenes Yeah, they accepted, than I could do the continuing education, they said it’s okay to make your point! Chris Yeah, so that’s a fascinating point that is the one thing you don’t talk to your friends about is your finances isn’t it. You talk about anything else, but not your finances. So, so that means that when you do need to talk about your finances, you’re finding it very difficult, very awkward and therefore, the, the animal part of your brain is the one that’s functioning, not the sensible, thinking part, have I summed that up well? Anne Abbenes When your brain is functioning. They are all working together. Without your animal and reptilian brain you just can’t make a decision. It’s not possible, you can’t make a decision with only the prefrontal cortex, so it’s really not possible but if they work together, then you get a sufficient decision. Chris So, how then do we get the three of them, two of them, three of them working together when it comes to a financial questions? Anne Abbenes Before I tell them about that, the ancient brain, let’s say the reptilian/mamillion brain there are responsible for 90% of the decisions. And working together, just letting the information of the financial plan of financial advisor land into the brain is just to reduce the anxiety of the, of your clients let them know that you’re on the same, same tribe, because our brain is wired like a tribal culture. And so let’s just make it real because saving and futuristic planning, that wasnt, that isn’t an advantage in our survival. That brain only thinks for the, for a short time, and what’s next, what’s tomorrow, what’s, what’s happening in a week. What’s happening in two weeks, and saving, that’s against how our brain is wired. Chris I can vouch for that my brain certainly isn’t wired for saving! Anne Abbenes And it’s logical because when you just, you had food and then you hide food for the others or just didn’t eat it, you were thrown out of the tribe. So it’s very important to let your clients experience that you are in the same tribe. So that’s very important to do that. Chris So, reduce anxiety, make it real, empathy so that you’re feeling, as you said you’re a part of the same tribe, where somebody doesn’t have a financial advisor, what can they do to help themselves to make better financial decisions? Anne Abbenes What you can do is just see, just explore your own relation with money and that’s what you can do yourself but also it’s also cool to do that with an advisor. And then you get what are my money beliefs, and you have money scripts and Brad Klontz discovered them, Brad Klontz. And I’ve worked with the money scripts, in the court. And that means I get a lot of divorce settlements and then distress is at the highest point and the money is just very important. And money scripts that are difficult unconscious beliefs, we have about money. They are developed in childhood and they drive all our adult financial behaviours. And they are subconscious beliefs, we have about money, but we don’t talk about that much, because we don’t talk about money, let alone, talking about our beliefs about money. Most of the time we don’t know we have them. And if you look at the word belief, a belief is something that is in your brain so it doesn’t have to be true. Most of the time, they aren’t accurate. And we are developing them when we are children. So when you are a child looking at the world from that perspective. Just an example, I just, was in a place somewhere and I went to the lake. I was walking there with a sister, oh let’s go to the lake we have been here before when we were five years old and in my memory the lake was so big, so big. And we were there and I thought, hmm, this isn’t a lake, just a small pond. So that’s also with money you have money scripts in your head or money beliefs, which are wired there when you are a child. So maybe you don’t need them anymore, but then you don’t know you have them and they drive your financial behaviour. Then is very important to explore this and to discover them and to addressing them and see if they are holding you back from making sufficient financial decisions so that’s very important. Chris Do you think it’s possible to challenge yourself? Anne Abbenes Challenge yourself? Chris If you have these beliefs. Is it possible for you to uncover the self limiting beliefs, yourself? Anne Abbenes Yeah it’s, Yeah, of course you can, and to also, the good news is, they can be changed. And some of these money scripts are formed at a deep primal level and become part of our real truth. So, they are developed for survival and protection in that unpredictable world, and they are resistant to change when there’s a strong emotion attached to them. But you can explore it yourself, and just say, what’s your first memory of money. What your parents taught you about money. And something coming from the psychotherapy is when you have a fear of something just go talk with it. So you put a chair in front of you say okay, money, sit down. And you just start a conversation with money, and then write down, what’s in the conversation and then ask the question- What with my mother say about this. What would my father say about this. And that’s a easy way just to find out that money beliefs. Chris So, supposedly does that exercise, other commands that’s a very powerful exercise talking to money and and bringing mom and dad into the conversation I’m doing it in my head right now and once you once you do that and you start to realise what your beliefs are around money, then what you do about that? Anne Abbenes Most of the time, when you get, awareness is enough. So, most people when they are aware of that. Of that money script they know. Okay, this was this was because this, because that. Sometimes they’re intergenerational. So sometimes the grandparents, in a war developed the money belief. And you know that you don’t need them anymore. So, it just kept aware of them is helpful. So when you know them and it’s also great for awareness. Then you just know, and it’s, it’s just become aware and then you can just make better decisions, you learn to know yourself so that’s a part also of wellbeing learning to know yourself and learning about your beliefs, about your past it’s a very important part. Chris And presumably you can then decide which of these beliefs you want to carry on with, it’s a choice isn’t it? Anne Abbenes Yeah, it’s a choice and they are, you can rewrite your script, so that’s that’s that’s the good part of it, you just can rewrite your script. Chris Ann, we could talk about this stuff for ages and ages I know we only just touched on the surface of this, but perhaps just to wrap up, could you tell us about the Financial Psychology Institute of Europe. Anne Abbenes Yes, we want to increase the understanding of how psychological aspects influence financial behaviour and financial decision making. So we’re just embrace all the people who are basically this with, we’re on a mission to get to improve the world’s financial health. And we establish evidence based interventions for it, and we educate financial professionals, mental health professionals and other professionals, so they can work in a better way with our clients. So, that’s our call. Chris I think it would seem to me the message that’s coming out of this is, if we understand how we make decisions around money. We will make better decisions around money. Anne Abbenes Yes, and if we understand ourselves better, then we just, having informed content there’s something in financial services are working with, just getting information, but getting the informtation of yourself about your own money beliefs. That’s something which is very important to do. So that’s a big part of our financial health and financial wellbeing, getting to know yourself and there’s a lot of attention of exterior finances and with a life planning, there’s also a lot of attention over the interior finances, about your, your present, about your propensity about your awareness, the future, of your dreams, your possibilities. But the past is also a very important part of it and that’s are your beliefs your money scripts, your emotions, your your your unconscious, beliefs, Chris Absolutely fascinating thank you so much for joining us really really appreciate it. Anne Abbenes Glad to be here. Thank you. David Well, fascinating stuff that. I have to say a lot of it, I want to say felt familiar. She gave us a new insight to certain things that we’ve discussed a lot on the podcast over the years. About financial wellbeing of Know thyself, self limiting beliefs that we often have about money. Chris I love some of the stuff she talked about that, how our brains havent been used to money within this period of evolution. So the way that we deal with decisions and make decisions around money, just doesn’t come naturally to us. It’s fascinating stuff. David Yeah. And also another thing she said that struck me as well, that money or thinking about money can cause fear and create anxiety, and that’s very true as well. If we can find a way of reframing that focusing on thinking, rather than making a scared about how we could make our money feel better is great. And also, her assertion that the self limiting beliefs that we talked about before, can of course be changed. They don’t have to be constant, but you do need to be aware of what it is that’s causing them before we go about trying to change. You know you can you can re-write your scripts as she says. Producer Tommo I’ve got nothing to add chaps, I think you’ve summarised it brilliantly. I think it was a terrific interview so thanks for that Chris. David We hope you’ve enjoyed that we always find we do something different, and we’ll do that next time we come back with another one of our financial wellbeing podcasts. For now, goodbye.

What gets you out of bed in the mornings? Join the guys as they discuss how we can structure our finances to create and keep the balance between pleasure and purpose for long term wellbeing and fulfilment. With another Bage’s Behavioural Bias and #tightasstommo’s money saving tips we have a pleasurable podcast for you . . . Welcomes & Introductions Click here for more information about the Initiative of Financial WellbeingClick here for more information about Ovation FinanceDavid’s new book, click on the image below for more information; (Editor Tammy – as requested by David, details on how to buy a copy of the book! ) What is todays podcast all about? – A chat about the balance between pleasure and purpose from the book, Happiness by Design by Paul Dolan. Bage’s Biases Every episode, Behavioral Finance expert, Neil Bage is going to be giving us his money behavioral tip. Exploring and thinking a little bit about the behavioral traits we have towards money can inform us, so we can make better money decisions going forward. – Link to Episode 36 – Understanding our attitude to risk – Link to Episode 21 – Financial capability – Link to BeIQ | Beam App This episode – Loss Aversion TightAssTommo Featuring a thrifty way to get a free umbrella!Click here for more information about the Olio app Todays topic – The balance between pleasure and purpose Age Concern study – those who reported the greatest wellbeing are those who were living a life with meaning The meaning of life . . . is? What is the difference between how we spend our time and the things that we think will make us happy? A client example – We focus on a snapshot moment when we should look at the continuing narrative How do you actually find purpose in your life? Teaching kids to ride bikes Purpose and pleasure when it comes to parenting! Using football to illustrate the difference between pleasure and purpose Finding the right balance for wellbeing A financial plan should be reflecting and aiming towards that thing that gets you out of bed in the morning. “goals and objectives are what we do during the day, but purpose is what gets us out of bed to do them” Do annual meetings with your financial advisor just look at a snapshot in time? It should be about coaching, to equip you to know what is important and remind yourself of that on a regular basis And for those without a financial advisor? Get a financial plan in place and make time each day to remind ourselves why we made that plan Episode 55 – overcoming Anxiety with Nick Elston The highs and lows of social media Focus on the objectives not the money Click for more details on the book Happiness by Design by Paul Dolan Conclusions from the guys Do you have any financial wellbeing questions you would like us to answer? Or do you have a #tightasstommo money saving tip you would like to share with our listeners? If so, let us know by going to Twitter @Finwellbeing or email – contact@financialwell-being.co.uk If you would like to purchase a copy of The Financial Wellbeing Book please click on this link to visit Penny Brohn UK shop Transcribe of the Podcast Script: (scroll to the bottom to listen to the episode) David 0:10 Hello, everybody and welcome to another one in our long running series of financial wellbeing podcasts. My name is David Lloyd, writer, broadcaster actor. I’m here to act as referee and the common man while I field comments and questions from two brilliant financial brains, the first of which is going to introduce himself now Chris Budd. Chris 0:34 Good lord David that that was, what have you had for breakfast this morning. My name is Chris Budd. I authored the book called The financial wellbeing book and I do lots of other stuff like play guitar and lots of that go on a lockdown. Bought a couple of new guitars during lockdown. So I’m not sure it’s been very good, very good financial wellbeing thing for me this lockdown. David 0:53 And the other genius financial brain is Tom Morris. Tell us about yourself Tommo? Producer Tommo 0:58 Well, I’m not sure about genius. But you know what I’ll take it. I have. I am a Chartered Financial Planner and director at Ovation Finance, which is a financial planning business in Bristol, and I’m also a director over the Initiative for Financial Wellbeing which is an organisation that had its roots in in this podcast, I would suggest and now is formed into a 200 plus member led organisation all trying to focus on the area of financial wellbeing and delivering it to their clients, which is is fantastic. I know about you, Chris. But it’s just been so exciting seeing people engage with this and and it’s just amazing. Chris 1:41 It’s been quite a summer, isn’t it? Yeah. Because we only launched it back in January, and that we’ve already got 230 members, and we’ve got a conference coming up in May. Regional meetings. Oh so much stuff going on. I’m supposed to be spending a day we can spend two or three days a week on it. And if there’s any financial advisors listening who haven’t come and joined us yet, please do. David 2:00 Brilliant well done, guys. And, Tom, I understand there’s been an addition to the Morris family. Producer Tommo 2:05 There has I am a father of two children now. Yes, young Bella, she on this recording since. I should really know this is six, almost seven weeks old now. Yeah, it’s a whirlwind. But it’s quite, people have been asking me what how does it feel going from one to two. And it’s far easier than going from naught to one I would say, going from naught to one, you go from not having to be responsible for anything really other than yourself to having to be responsible for this little, little thing. And then all of a sudden, you’re already used to that. So going to two, it’s been absolutely fine. Apart from that. The lowered sleep. Yeah, it’s great. Yeah, I’m really happy. I couldn’t tell you. It’s a cliche, but I’m incredibly proud and happy dad. David 2:51 Brilliant. Well done. Chris, you’ve been up to anything exciting had any more children? Chris 2:56 Not that I know of. Actually, given the luck that I can be absolutely certain of the fact that I haven’t. I haven’t left this house for like nine months. There’s a friend of ours, mutual friend of ours, David Hannah, who does the illustrations for my novels. And she texted me the other day about novel three, which I’m, I’m just finishing up just to say how are you? Isn’t life dull? I thought that’s a very good way of putting it. But David, we shouldn’t go by talking about novels. We shouldn’t let this go by without mentioned of a certain other addition to your family, your new novel? David 3:28 Indeed, yes, I went after after many, many years of writing for TV and saying I must write a novel one day and having spent five years on and off writing it, I finally got a novelr out. And it’s selling very well. It’s getting great reviews. I’m really pleased with it. It’s called ‘A Most Unwelcome Connection.’ I’m sure Tammy will stick something in the show notes at the end to tell you how you can buy it. If she doesn’t. I’m never doing another podcast. Yeah, no, it’s gone really well. And you all know, Chris, more than certainly more than I do. I mean, the the excitement of you know, I knew that novel really well. I was very familiar with the characters I knew the words on on a screen. But there was nothing that quite prepared me for that rather magical moment of holding a book in my hands, that I had written. I had, you know, my name on it. And it was all encapsulated in this lovely book smelling book. Yeah, so yeah, so that’s, that’s been great. And I’m already now working on the sequel. Chris 4:23 Brilliant, brilliant. I remember when I had my first box of books arrive at the doorstep and I ordered 50 copies I think to sell and give away to friends what have you. And then when the second book came along, I ordered 20 copies because I still got a few the first one and having just done the order. I’ve ordered three. David 4:42 You got a little bit more reasonable. I’ve got a few knocking around but not many, actually. Not many. Anyway, enough about us. We need to move on now to the purpose of today’s conversation. Chris, you better tell us what that is. Chris 4:56 So we’re gonna have a chat about the balance between pleasure and purpose. And it comes from a book called happiness by design by Paul Dolan. So we’re going to talk about some of the ideas that he shares in his book. David 5:10 Brilliant look forward to that. But before we do that, we need to move on to the first of our regular features, and that is Bage’s Behavioural Biases. Were all friend of the podcast, behavioural finance expert, Neil Bage, gives us his one minute introduction to a different behavioural bias that affects how we make decisions about money. And that Chris, what is Neil telling us about this week? Chris 5:36 Today, Neil talks about loss aversion Neil Bage 5:41 Loss aversion. loss aversion is our tendency, our natural desire to prefer avoiding a loss when compared with acquiring and equivalent gain. What this basically means is that we would feel losing £10 more than we would feel gaining £10. So if you’re walking down the street and find a £10 note on the floor, brilliant, of course, you’d feel happy and chuffed that you’ve just found money. But equally, if you put your hand in your pocket, and realise that you’ve lost £10, that feeling the sinking feeling you get in your stomach, that loss aversion being played out. And it is really powerful if we don’t keep it in check, or slow down to consider its effects when making decisions. And we could end up very quickly in a place where we’re doing something to try and avoid a loss, but actually end up losing something else. So don’t let loss aversion take control, making you miss out on new opportunities or new experiences simply based on a fear of losing. We risk things all the time. Just getting out of bed today, and getting dressed carries a degree of risk. So don’t let your aversion to loss become too dominant in your life. Don’t ignore it. But don’t let it control you either. Producer Tommo 6:57 Yeah, once again, Neal is nailed it hasn’t he absolutely nailed it. Yeah, loss aversion is a big one. I find with conversations with, with clients as there’s no doubt we do feel loss considerably more than we feel any gains. And it’s something we have to be really aware of that when somebody is trying to manage their finances or life in general, that we try and provide some buffers to these losses to make them feel a bit more comfortable, because we will feel them. But some people will feel that more than others. So it’s something we definitely need to be aware of that. Yeah, loss losses, or the perception of them can be quite tricky. So yeah. Well, well put, Neil. David 7:42 So now let’s move on to another one of our regular features. I say another one it is the prime feature. It is the reason that people tune in to this podcast. Yes, I witter away. Yes, Chris gives us his, his brilliant financial analysis and knowledge. But in the end, what this is all about is our next feature, Tightasstommo. It’s when Tom Morris gives us the benefit of his meanness. When he explains to us how in the financial world or in any world, you can save yourself some money. But before we come on to the master himself, Chris, have you’ve got anything for us, Chris 8:20 I’ve got one today, David, which is how to get free umbrellas. Never spend any money on an umbrella ever again. What you do is you go to the last department section of your local railway station, and you say excuse me, I’ve lost an umbrella. It’s small and black, and it’s extendable. They’re bound to have one there and they’ll give you a free one. Producer Tommo 8:41 I like that. Yeah, that’s brilliant. I’m going to struggle to Trump that David 8:46 Do your best, Tommo you can do it. The world is waiting. Producer Tommo 8:49 Oh, goodness, me. So I came about this only this morning, actually, somebody had put it out there that there was this organisation called Olio. That’s O L, I O. And it’s olio x, ex.com. in the show notes. What they do is they link neighbours and the local community up together and you’re able to sell or give away food that’s close to its used by day or food, that surplus, maybe you’re even able to sell some some cakes that you’ve made that are no longer required. The whole idea is is that reducing food waste, which has been shown to be a huge, has a huge impact on on the environment, but also enabling people to get access to food at a lower cost. I don’t know if it’s free or not. But like I said, I only saw it this morning. I’m going to go and investigate it more. But it seems like right up our street is saving money but but also reducing the impact on the environment. David 9:55 Excellent, particularly in these times of you know people having to take recourse to a foodbank. Some things like that, that sounds like a really positive thing. Producer Tommo 10:03 Yeah, absolutely. So Olio. Yeah, I’m gonna, I’m gonna really check it out, get get involved. David 10:10 Thanks for that. All right, let’s move on then to the main event. Chris, why don’t you tell us again? About our subject for today? Chris 10:19 Okay, David, thank you. So there’s a recent Age Concern study of wellbeing among retired people. And it showed or concluded that those who reported the greatest wellbeing would those were living a life with meaning. David 10:32 Now, that’s great expression. But what does a life with meaning actually mean? If you pardon the expression? How to find meaning in life is a pretty big question. Monty Python tried to make a film about it, but not fully, fully addressed it? Chris 10:47 Well, like most conversations about meaning of life if they raise more questions than answers, didn’t they? But they did it in a very good way. So So what is meaning or let’s use another word for it purpose, and let’s explore the balance of purpose and pleasure. Crucially, then, of course, how we structure our finances to create and keep that balance between purpose and pleasure. And so to do this, I’ve been rereading a really good book by a guy called Paul Dolan. It’s called happiness by design. So if anybody’s interested in the ideas in this podcast, I strongly recommend that you check out that book. So let’s start off with talking about pleasure. There’s a difference between what makes us happy and what we pay attention to. There’s a difference between how we spend our time and the things that we think will make us happy. And in many ways the gap between these two things defines our wellbeing David 11:40 Right, hold your horses, Christoph, I need to get my head around that statement. So as I understand it, you’re talking about the gap between what actually makes us happy, presumably, this is the ‘Know Thyself’ principle that you’ve talked about for many years, and how we spend our time which is taking our immediate attention. Chris 12:00 Yeah, exactly. And there’s an analogy Paul gives in the early on in his book, which I really like, which is, it’s like the difference between a movie a film, and a photograph. A film is the continuing narrative, where a photograph is just one snapshot in time. And we tend to focus on the snapshot the moment of happiness or wellbeing or unhappiness or whatever. So to give an example, it’s, it’s possible to be unhappy in a job, while quite happy at that particular moment, the thing that you’re doing, which can thereby stop us from taking action. David 12:35 Can you give me an example to illustrate this, Producer Tommo 12:37 I’ll jump in here, if you don’t mind. Because I can think about a few clients, actually, this fits. I’m not going to use a real name here, this is pseudonym for obvious reasons. But a client called Aill and Bill worked for a company that he didn’t like, but he was well paid. He liked his colleagues, and he enjoyed the particular job, he was doing well enough. So you can see there was this snapshot of enjoying what he does in the day, but wasn’t necessarily enjoying the company he worked for, you know, he didn’t like his line manager. What the company did, he just didn’t really believe in. So every day, Bill will go into work focused on what he’s doing now, and actually be happy doing his role. So was wasn’t unhappy. However, whenever he went on holiday, it was felt a little bit, wan’t exactly excited to go back and do the job. He wasn’t fulfilled by it. So I guess what I’m trying to say is his job, in in the moment was giving him happiness, but actually wasn’t given a huge amount of purpose. Because the wider aspects of what it involved wasn’t making him particularly happy. Chris 13:51 I suspect, you guys know, certainly I can, I’m sure a lot of listeners can think of times of their lives when they’ve been in that situation. I can think of a lot of financial advisors, for example, who loved the idea of financial wellbeing but are in jobs, which give them targets to sell products, etc. And they probably enjoy the time with the client, but overall, it’s not giving them the fulfilment. So Paul Dolan’s first suggestion is that we stopped focusing on the snapshots of life, those moments of pleasure, and instead look at how these add together over time. So now let’s look at purpose. We talk of financial wellbeing in terms of living a meaningful life. We use the word purpose a lot, I do anyway. But that word purpose is a big word. It can feel a little overpowering. Yeah, how you actually find purpose in your life? It’s a big issue. David 14:36 Yeah, I think for me, it’s about I mean, I guess I would separate it out. One purpose in my life is to is to earn enough money to live you know, and that’s clearly there as a whether you’d call it a purpose or a function, but for me, I have a wider purpose and nice to feel that I’m making a positive contribution. And Chris, you and I have over a long period of time, you know, volunteer for our local cricket club, done a lot of work there. I just joined the local parish Council, I’ve been a, I’ve been a school governor. And for me, it’s about the purpose in my life is about making a wider contribution to my own community. And I guess those are things that I can feel that I’m doing something useful, when I’m doing it but also retrospectively as I can with a cricket, which I’ve stepped away from now. I can look back on that and think, yeah, you know, I made a difference. It’s something I can look back on with pride. Chris 15:29 Yeah, absolutely. So there’s a longer term thing. And I often say to people of all the things I’ve done in life, that cricket section that you and I got going is probably one of the things I’m most proud of, of all the things that I’ve done. And you’ve got things like your Bafta award, for the award winning show Maid Marion and her Merry Men. We don’t mention that enough, actually. Because there will be some of our listeners that, that will remember that show and not realise that you were Graham, the guard. David 15:54 So it was indeed and it was it was the best job, apart from this one, that I ever had. Certainly paid better than this one. But yeah, it was a great Kids TV series, late 80s, early 90s. For those that haven’t got a clue what we’re talking about, yeah. Chris 16:09 Still available on DVD. David 16:11 It is indeed Yes, on blu-ray DVD. And indeed, you can stream it on Amazon Prime. Chris 16:17 There you go. There you go. So you got to go and see what Producer Tommo 16:19 That does mean, born in the in 1987, I very much enjoyed it, David, at the age it was meant to be enjoyed. So thank you, it was it was an excellent show. Chris 16:29 So there you go, you’ve got you’ve got the longer term purpose of something like that, or there could be just a moment when you show the kid to bowl leg spin. And in that moment, you’ve got pleasure as well. So it’s a balance between these two things. Producer Tommo 16:40 I’ve got, I think I’ve got an example of this. And it only happened this weekend, I have shown Toby how to ride a bike, and he actually got it, you know, it was just amazing. I think I actually showed you the video, I’ve sent you the video, Chris, you you’ve seen it, you know, he actually does have an extended period of time where I’m not holding on, it was amazing. And you get, I got that great sense of, of, of pride and, you know, happiness with that, but also a sense of purpose that my role as a father is or as a parent is to teach my child these things. So some of my purpose is to teach my children how to do things so that they are, they’re able to live a life where they could cycle a bike to school, or whatever it might be. Chris 17:31 I just share a quick story about my daughter, Ella and her bike. Because, because it’s a big moment to teach your kid to ride a bike. And so I had it all set up that we were gonna go to a certain, to Wells actually, to ride a bike and she kept saying, It’s okay, because I can already ride a bike and you can’t, I can’t that I can’t Ella. Look, it’s not you don’t just get on it. You know, you need to learn I need to teach you is it? No, but I can do that. Ella I know you think you can, I sound like Nemo’s dad here, I know you think you can. But you can’t you know. So we get down to Wells. And then we put on the bike, bam, off she goes. And she comes around in a big circle, skids in front of me says what about that then aye? And I said, but, but, I’ll be learning at school. I just haven’t told you. Grrr David 18:19 Well, there’s a lesson for us all there, obviously, our instinct as parents is we want to inform and educate and guide and lead our children. But sometimes they’re best left to their own devices to get on with it themselves. Chris 18:32 So this, this parenting actually gets a specific mention in this book, Happy Happiness by Design, because I’m not sure you’re gonna like this. But there are studies that show that being a parent doesn’t actually add to your overall wellbeing over time. But what it does do is it changes the balance, I think Tommo’s gonna be able to relate to that. It changes the balance between doing things that are purposeful, and things that are pleasurable. I think you could probably vouch for that at the moment. Producer Tommo 18:58 Yeah. Are we saying that I’m definitely in the purposful zone rather than pleasurable? Yeah, I could get I could get that. Yeah, you know, your purpose at the moment is to get up and change a nappy at three in the morning. I mean, that’s, that’s my purpose in life right now. Is it pleasurable? I think we all know the answer to that. David 19:19 Yeah, but Tommo the pleasure will come later in life when, when one of your children or both of them will say, Dad, come on, we’re going down the pub, and I’m gonna buy you a pint. And that’s when the pleasure comes. I mean, my son who I still remember, I could remember teaching him to ride his bike. I could remember changing his nappy and all of those things, but you know, he’s 32 now he’s a man and yet still, my boy. Producer Tommo 19:42 Yeah, there you go. David 19:43 I get, I get certainly you know, a lot of pleasure now from seeing him having turned up into a well rounded and independent young man. Chris 19:52 So let’s let’s look a bit deeper into the no lifestyle stuff that we always go on about in these podcasts and have them for years. Let’s look at that pleasure and principal balance. And let’s try and illustrate this difference between pleasure and purpose. So, David, what would you say are your favourite type of TV programmes or movies? David 20:13 Well, obviously, I’m tempted to say the ones I’ve been in, but but that’s, but actually I’ve, you know, I love a nice documentary. And, you know, I’ll take as an example, you look at some of the great documentaries David Attenborough has made over recent years, you know, the Blue Planet, and all of those things that educate, inform, but also really make you think about, you know, the state of the planet. So probably something like that is going to give me a huge amount of satisfaction at every level. Chris 20:41 Okay, Tommo me what about you? Producer Tommo 20:43 Sport. Sport for me, if I’ve got an opportunity in some spare time, certainly over the weekends, I just watch whatever live sport there is, you know, particularly rugby and cricket, I can’t get enough of it. Chris 20:55 So this illustrates and that obviously, there’s no right or wrong answer to it, because it’s whatever is unique to you. But it demonstrates the difference between whether you do things for pleasure or for purpose. I watched recently, a really good film recommended Triak of the Chicago Seven on Netflix. And I suggest that’s a fairly purposeful type film. It’s a true story. I also love going to see Bristol Rovers, I get great purpose from the fact that I go with my son, even if there isn’t always a pleasure to be here for the actual football. David 21:25 Right? Well, I mean, I can share that with you as well, Chris, because I, obviously, football, I remember picking, picking my son see Bristol City, the other Bristol team when when he was a kid and getting huge amounts of purpose from that. And although, you know, I would argue that the general standard of football over the years made it slightly. The same principle applies is that you’re they’re doing something with your boy. And whatever it is, whoever you’re watching, whatever your opinion might be of the relative merits of the teams that we support, that that essential thing that you do is the great thing. Producer Tommo 22:01 Can I ask a question here? Those examples of you going to sports events with your with your boys? Is that purpose or pleasure? Chris 22:12 It’s it’s a purposeful thing to do. No doubt about it whatsoever. That of course, yeah, it’s still good for purpose, I guess. Would you disagree? You asked the question. Producer Tommo 22:25 A little bit. Yeah, I’d say that there’s that that’s a pleasure pursuit. David 22:30 I think it’s both. I think it’s I think you go there with a purpose. Your purpose is to go to the football, you get pleasure from doing something with your with your child. And you get extra pleasure if your team wins, which clearly is something that Chris will be less familiar with. Chris 22:46 I knew you wouldn’t be able to resist. David 22:48 I tried to be fair, I tried to be nice, Chris. And I just couldn’t stop myself. Producer Tommo 22:55 As a neutral, he’s got a point, Chris i’m afraid. Chris 22:58 The silly thing is if you look at the number of games won and lost over the last 10 years between Bristol Rovers and Bristol City, I suspect it’s about the same. It’s just a different divisions. David 23:09 Well, I’m going to come back at you in the next podcast with that stat. We’ll see. But presumably, this challenge that we’re talking about between pleasure is a key to long term well being. And I would imagine that, that living a life, which is all pleasure, and no purpose wouldn’t be especially fulfilling. But then I can also imagine that a life which is all purpose, and no pleasure, wouldn’t be much fun after a while. So surely, it’s about finding the right balance for each of us. Producer Tommo 23:39 Yeah, absolutely. It was going to be over the long term, not just at that snapshot in time we talked about. So when we look at structuring our finances, when we work, you know, work out our financial plans, we need to work on that Know Thyself part, so that we understand our own balance between purpose and ultimately, what the thing the thing that gets us out of bed in the morning, and pleasure, you know, considering how these series of moments will add up to, to provide us long term well being, you know, that’s what our financial plan should be reflecting and aiming towards. Chris 24:14 I had a really good definition of purpose actually, a little while ago, somebody said, ‘goals and objectives are what we do during the day, but purpose is what gets us out of bed to do them’ as a really nice weapon money. Let’s give the last word on this to Paul Dolan then from the book. Now a direct quote from the book. ‘The value of our lives comes from the experiences of pleasure and purpose over our lifetime, not from a judgement we might make in an arbitrarily chosen moment in time.’ David 24:41 Oh, that’s great. Now given that, I’ve got a challenge for your two brilliant financial planning brains. So this podcast is all about how we can use money to make us happier, and not just wealthier as our strap line right now, you’re saying that we shouldn’t judge happiness by a snapshot in time, yet you call the client in for a meeting just once a year as you did with me last week tamo for an annual review? Producer Tommo 25:05 Well, I’m put on the spot here now arn’t I? I better come up with a good answer! And I think we have to realise that it is very difficult for somebody to be next to you, throughout the whole of the year or this whole long snapshot in time. What my job as a financial planner is, is that when we sit down for that once a year, it may be more regular than that, for some clients, certainly those that are going through a big transition, is to equip you with the skills to be able to understand these things for yourself. So this is where coaching comes in. So I’d like to think that a lot of our conversations, we have David at all around really trying to understand what’s important to you, looking at all these snapshots added together, so we can, you know, get this theme about what is important to you, What’s your purpose, and ultimately, what makes you happy. And then enabling you to take that away, and implement it for between when we see each other and the next time we see each other because unfortunately, I can’t be there with you at all times. So I need to equip you with the skills to know right, what is important to me, and then make sure that you are reminding yourself of that on a regular basis, David 26:23 Which is exactly what you did at our last meeting, you came up with some great solutions and suggestions about, you know, I’m at a stage in my life where I’m moving from working into a more retirement based life. And certainly the advice you gave me was very, very useful. Chris 26:39 I think it’s also fair to say that not everybody will want to or you can get afford to see their advisor every quarter or every month. So So seeing an advisor who’s going to equip you, I think, you know, make sure you’ve got one of them. Producer Tommo 26:51 It’s also the case, and I hope, David, you’ll agree with this is that we are open to having conversations between our our more organised meetings. So we may well have a telephone call along the way that you want to sense checks and things with me, emails, you know, as long as an advisor is open, to having these conversations between meetings, it does enable you to make sure that it’s not just the snapshots that being talked about, and the wider things are being discussed. And yeah, it’s important that we do provide the support. But ultimately, having those big meetings a little too often they can start to become a bit stale if we’re not careful. David 27:31 Yeah, I think that’s fair comment. And I think, obviously, you and I have a slightly different relationship given that we come together for these podcasts quite often, it gives us an opportunity to catch up on small things, when we’re chatting. But certainly those, those big meetings are very important because they tend to be a bit more focused, you go right, these are the issues, we need to sit down and address them. But what I valued about the relationship I have with you and indeed previous advisors that I’ve had at Ovation is the fact that I do know that you’re always there that I can pick up the phone or send you an email and that for me is an ideal advisor client relationship. Producer Tommo 28:07 We better make sure we continue that then hadn’t we! David 28:11 What about those people who don’t have a financial advisor? And we know that a lot of people who read the financial well being booked to turn to that, if you like, is their financial advice? How should they remind themselves of their relationship to their money on a regular basis and keep in touch with their financial wellbeing? Chris 28:28 Thats a good challenge David had to make financial well being something that you attend to every day, not just at certain moments, and then forget it again. So let’s just remember, this is all about the balance between pleasure and purpose. We need to make sure we take time, I would suggest each day to remind ourselves of our plan. So we need to create that financial plan in the first place. And actually thank you for mentioning it, the financial wellbeing book will help you to do that. But then just remind yourself every, not necessarily every day about your plan. But remind yourself every day about you. There’s an old friend of the podcast, Nick Elston, who can be heard, I think, I don’t wish to be rude to the other guests we’ve had. But I think it was the best one, best episode we produced, number 55. He was absolutely fantastic. And he showed a great tip recently to a group of financial advisors that Tommo and I are a part of called the Next Gen Planners. I’m a bit too old for them, but they still let me in. I suspect you might be getting a bit old from at some point, but Producer Tommo 29:23 Im told it’s a mindset, not an age thing. So I hope, I hope . . . Chris 29:27 Yes, yes, definitely. So So Nick said on that on that pod on that little commute that we do every morning with a group of people. He said, just make sure that a little bit of each day is allocated for you. Now I just that really hit me. I’m sure I’m not the only one who finds that I spend so much time every day providing things for the people whether paid or not paid whatever. And I just don’t get to put aside time for myself. So after hearing that step I actually wrote which bit of you, sorry, which bits of today is for you on a postcard and I’ve pinned it behind my workstation, so I see it every morning, which bit of today is for you. David 30:07 Excellent. So and if I understand Mr. Dolan correctly, a major source of unhappiness is the way we focus our attention on the wrong things. So this could be I guess, what social media is a big thing now, isn’t it? You know, we’re all very easily subsumed by what we see on social media. And we can very quickly get trolled and bullied if we dare to mention something that’s not you know, in the current zeitgeist and, and that can take us away from the thing that we believe is really, really important. Chris 30:39 I think, I get a bit frustrated, if I’m honest with you, I love my Twitter. And I get a bit frustrated when I hear people say I don’t do Twitter, because I don’t like what I see. People being negative, you literally choose your own feed on Twitter, you choose your followers. So if somebody is putting something in that you don’t like, don’t follow them. mute them. David 31:01 Exactly. Right, Chris. And I’ve done that I’ve I mean, Twitter is, let’s face it, it’s not, it’s not the lovely fluffy place it was 10 years or so ago when we both joined it. But it still is, for me a source of great amusement and entertainment because anybody that goes on my timeline with any degree and never to negativity or degree, I just sling them off. I’m not interested in engaging with the wider world. I just want to engage with people that make me feel good. Chris 31:26 Yeah. And it’s not only getting people that agree with me, I’ve got lots of people don’t agree with, it’s that negativity and unwillingness to to engage in a conversation. So yeah, you literally choose your own timeline. Producer Tommo 31:39 Do you mind if I come in with some practical stuff chaps as, I think some listeners do like to think well, how can I actually implement this within my financial plan? Chris 31:47 You mean, they don’t want to listen to me and David moaning about the world. Producer Tommo 31:50 If they want to hear you moan about Twitter, etc, they go watch Social Dilemma on Netflix, an excellent documentary that will give you all the insight you need onto this. So if you remember the two grumpy old men on on the Muppets, this is what I’m looking at right now. David 32:05 Less of the old! Producer Tommo 32:08 Okay, so let the point of a financial plan should be to create a clear path to identifiable objectives. I.e, you know, the purpose, the pleasure, what’s it all for? So we need to create that clear path. These objectives, which we could call intrinsic motivations, which we’ve discussed before, on this balance between pleasure and purpose, and are unique to each individual. So once you’ve identified your objectives, why not keep an overview of this to hand? Maybe pin it on the wall, next to Nick Elston’s tip of have you taken some time for yourself each day? Why don’t you pin it on the water? What are your motivations and objectives? What’s important to you? It’s the reason why so many of us keep a picture of our family close at times. And we want to be reminded about the things that are important to us. So that if you’ve got something that you’re specifically aiming for, and oh, such as a holiday, why not pin that up on the wall. Now make your money real to you. You know, without focusing on the amounts, just what your money can actually achieve for you, you know, these objectives that are so important. That being said, when it comes to the actual nitty gritty management of your money, you know, I recommend that you look at it less often than that, you know, it’s important to look at these objects of everyday but looking at your money should be done a little less often, otherwwise, you can get really wrapped up and it’s not going to be great for your your well being. You know, a good example is to look at your investments every day, watching whether the stock market’s gone, up or down, it’s no good for your wellbeing. And, you know, it’s gonna give you false feelings anyway. Remember, investments is a long term thing. Also, automation is your friend. So set up direct debit savings towards these things that are important to you. It enables you to have mental space to focus on the things that are important to you. And also, you know, that action has being taken. Also, if you’re in retirement, make sure your income is automated, so you’re not constantly worrying about action being taken. And finally, if we actually think about our spending, do you review it every couple of months to make sure it’s aligned to that purpose and pleasure that we discussed? And this can be straightforward these days. There are many apps now where you can link your bank account, and you’re able to get a good breakdown of where your money’s going. I know, for example, clients at Ovation, we provide them with a portal and they can link their bank account in there. And they’re able to do budgeting very easily a click of a button. You know, every couple of months they can see, okay, that’s what’s coming in. That’s what’s going out. Is it actually being spent on things that provide pleasure. Is it being spent on things that provide purpose if the answer is no. Then we need to reassess it. If the answer is yes, tick that box and carry on enjoying your life. David 35:01 Great advice. Tom, I thought you mentioned that portlet our meeting last week and you still have to send me the link to set it up, so I’m just reminding you about that. Producer Tommo 35:09 What a terrific advisor I really am. All the truth is coming out now, isn’t it? David 35:15 You’ve had other things on your mind Tommo, so that’s fine. So what’s the name of that book again, Chris? Chris 35:21 It’s called Happiness by Design by Paul Dolan. I stress that the points about the pleasure and purpose balance that we’ve been talking about. That’s just the first chapter. There’s loads of great stuff in the rest of the book. So it’s definitely one that we recommend. David 35:33 Well, I shall go away and read it. So thanks very much for that guy’s a really interesting chat today I thought, I hope you’ve all enjoyed it listening at home or in the car or wherever you’ve been listening to us waffling away, and I hope that you will join us again very soon. Next time we come together for another one of our financial wellbeing podcasts.

Episode 70 – Finding Purpose in Later Life with Tony Watts OBE A special guest interview with Tony Watts OBE, director at EngAgeNet and author of The Midlife Review Book. Tony is an advocate for the elderly from producing many publications to directly informing the government on their issues. In this episode the guys chat about what retirement can mean, finding purpose in later life and how employers can work with employees for a smooth transition. As ever we have a brilliant Bages Behavioural Bias and a terrific #tightasstommo money saving tip for you in this practically perfect podcast! Welcomes & Introductions What is today’s podcast all about? A chat with Tony Watts OBE exploring how we can find purpose and wellbeing in our later years.Link to Tony’s book: The Midlife Review Bage’s Biases Every episode , Behavioural Finance expert, Neil Bage, is going to be giving us his money behavioural tips. We are hardwired to make bad decisions about money because we have biases built into us from our experiences through life. We will keep hearing from Neil to help us recognise some of these behavioural biases and hopefully lead us to making better financial decisions. – Link to Episode 36 – Understanding our attitude to risk– Link to Episode 21 – Financial capability– Link to BeIQ | Beam App This episode – The endowment effect. Chris and Producer Tommo share examples of the endowment effect they see through their work. #TightAssTommo Featuring ‘winner winner, chicken dinner’, discounts on fancy groceries and the less said about Producer Tommo’s dating tips the better In a bold move #tightasstommo shares a story about spending money for your wellbeing. Interview with Tony Watts, OBE Tony is a director at EngAgeNet Tony talks about the work he has been doing for elder people over the years, that has resulted in a certain award. How a cat in Clifton led to editing a newspaper for older people in Bristol?! Editing lead to campaigning and trying to work out how to make later life better.This lead to talking directly to the government to feed ideas into how to make policy more effective. How Tony’s OBE has enabled him with his work. Tony defines what a better later life means. There’s no one size fits all Why it is no good waiting until the day you start picking up your state pension or your company pension before you start planning retirement or later life How priorities in life start to change How to think making the most of the last 20/30 years of your life. Working together with your financesyour relationshipsyour healthyour purpose in life. The retirement clock of doom The last thing you should think about doing when you retire is putting your feet up. Tony Watts, OBE Later Life Agenda – Gives you a digest of all the news affecting older people every day. It brings together news stories and features from all around the world about later life living. And that that’s the thing that gets Tony out of bed in the morning and also keeps him current. Life is long, if you know how to use it.Seneca Say yes to everything and see what happens. Having a young brain v having an old brain  Second Bite of the Cherry – Tim Drake If you’re going to be equipped to deal with life – you have to be equipped to adapt. Learning to play a new musical instrument A deeper look at what Tony’s book, The Midlife Review, is all about How intergenerational workforces was the inspiration behind the book How do you keep retraining for the changes that are ahead? The Financial Audit – If you could afford to retire When could afford to retire When you could afford to start phasing your work commitments down And then put in a financial plan that fits around your life ambitions and your personal ambitionsAlongside a health audit A Clear Path to Achieve Identifiable Objectives – as you’re thinking about retirement and/or moving into your next phase of life, you still need a clear path to identifiable objectives A regular review of your objectives and why they need to be mapped out – What’s your health objective? What’s your your financial objective? What’s your personal relationship objective? Success in getting other companies to look at helping their older employees look at this? Could the younger generation be moving job every couple of years, because there’s a disconnect between what owners are giving their employees and what the younger employees want? Trying to find a job that will align with what you want out of life. It absolutely is a big change that employers could learn from. The intergenerational workforce – looking at the motivations for each generation What financial planning is all about – It’s not a one size fits all. Know thyself. Work out what works for you. Conclusions from the guys Retirement doesn’t mean ‘retirement’ anymore. When working you have lots of social relationships through your work, social contact. When you retire, a lot of that will stop. So how are you going to replace it? The key thing –  purpose Just because you might switch off the income producing career doesn’t necessarily mean that career stops. Davids hitchhiking story Click here for more information on the Initiative for Financial Wellbeing Do you have any financial wellbeing questions you would like us to answer? Or do you have a #tightasstommo money saving tip you would like to share with our listeners? If so, let us know by going to Twitter @Finwellbeing or email – contact@financialwell-being.co.uk If you would like to purchase a copy of The Financial Wellbeing Book please click on this link to visit Penny Brohn UK shop Transcribe of the Podcast Script: (scroll to the bottom to listen to the episode) David  Hello, everybody and welcome to another one in our long running series of financial wellbeing podcasts where three of us get together and waffle on about how money can increase your wellbeing. My waffling name is David Lloyd, I’m an actor, a broadcaster, and a writer, and I’m here to act as mediator, while the two people around me talk with more knowledge and purpose that I have about financial matters. And one of those is Chris Budd. Chris, tell us about you. Chris  Good morning. So I wrote the financial wellbeing book, I’m chair of the initiative for financial well being but my day job I help companies to succession, through something called an employee ownership trust, having done the same thing myself with Ovation Finance. And it’s been really quiet over the summer, because not many business owners have been thinking about that. But it’s got really busy over the last few months. So yeah, that’s actually taking up a lot of my time again, I’m pleased to say, David  Great, another part of our terrific triumvirate is Tom Morris, Tommo, tell us about you. Producer Tommo  I’m just waiting to hear the baby crying stop. Chris  Well no, its alright David  My dogs barking now. So let me just go . . . Chris  This is this is not supposed to be highly professional. Is it? Producer Tommo  I mean, this is part of the charm, isn’t it? Chris  Yeah. David  Right, so Tommo . . . Producer Tommo  You’re such a wordsmith, David. Never ceases to amaze me – triumvirate. It’s such a wonderful word. I’m. Yes. Far too rubbish with words to come up with, trio. Yes, I am a Chartered Financial Planner and director at Ovation Finance, who kindly sponsor this podcast. I’m not sure if you can pick up on my microphone. I have a relatively newborn child. So you may hear in the background. I am a father of two now, which is all very exciting. So if you do hear a few wails in the background, don’t don’t be too alarmed. It’s just what newborns do. Right. But yeah, I’m, I’m very good. I’m very good. still recording this during about what are we locked down mark two about to go into tier three is we’re all based in Bristol. But all considering I feel very blessed to be here today. And I’m really looking forward to this pod. David  Excellent. So am I so Chris, we’re all looking forward to it. What are we going to be talking about today? Chris  We’re going to be hearing from a chap called Tony Watts, OBE, and Tony has been for many years, activist if you like for older the people, so you David. David  I do indeed have some comments on that, but I’ll save those for later. Chris  Good idea. Sorry, that was a bit rude. I didn’t mean it though. We love you really. David  Before we do that, let’s look at the first of all regular features. Bages Behavioural Biases. Were an old friend of the podcast, behavioural finance expert, Neil Bage, gives us his one minute introduction to a different behavioural bias that affects how we make decisions about money. What’s this bias about, Chris? Chris   This week, we’re hearing from Neil about the endowment effect. Neil Bage  The endowment effect. Have you ever gone to sell something that you own only to have the person who is the potential buyer offering you way less than you want, you go to other people, and even they offer you less than you think the item is worth. If this sounds remotely like something you’ve experienced, you’ve fallen for the endowment effect. In short, the endowment effect is where we overvalue something we own, regardless of its real market value, which of course is objective. And people will tend to believe through this feeling of ownership that what we have, what they have, what they own is better than anybody else’s, or my car, my house, are all better than everybody else’s. And it’s this biassed view of the world that can lead us to making decisions that may not end up being the best decisions that we’ve ever made. So the next time you’re on eBay, trying to sell a pair of headphones that you’ve never used. Remember that the attachment that you have to them, everyone else will value at zero. In that situation, take a step back and ask yourself, if I didn’t own this, what would I be willing to pay for it? Even that one simple step can potentially knock you out of the grasp of the endowment effect. And the sooner you recognise this, the sooner you will feel liberated. Chris  So there’s a very important relevance here with with what I was mentioning, if you’d like my day job, the fact that I help business owners to exit and sell their businesses, because business owners will very often overvalue their own business, they think it’s worth more than what somebody else wants to pay for it. And so the question I always ask business owner is how much do you need to sell your business for? And they always give me an amount is worth this or that. But that’s not the question. The question is what do you need. So the first step for anybody who’s thinking of selling their business is to get financial planning. Find out how much you actually need for the business. And then that will hopefully get rid of that counteracts the endowment effect, and give you a much more realistic figure that you can then work from good financial well being link there. Producer Tommo  Yeah, I think that’s a terrific example, and naturally come across this a fair amount as we’re in similar, well we’re in the same field. Chris, we work work work at Ovation, or you certainly had more of an involvement in that since you moved on to your employee ownership side of things. So you definitely see a lot of that. I think another example of where I see it, is inherited assets, it’s there is almost this extra connection with something because somebody who they loved hold on to something. So it must be really good to have it, even though it is really the wrong thing for them to keep in their lives, whether it be a house they’ve inherited, which is miles away, but for some reason they want to keep it, rent it or just leave it dormant because it was their loved ones and everyone has investments, they inherit an investment portfolio that is completely wrong for their needs, but find it very difficult to make any changes to it. Because of this endowment effect. It’s it’s very powerful. David  The ability to be objective, of course, it’s something that’s very difficult. We talk about, we’ve talked many times on these podcasts about knowing ourselves, or being aware of who you really are. And certainly, my experience of that, as a writer of 35 years now is that when I first started writing, every word of every script, or whatever that I’d written, as far as I was concerned was was the best thing that could ever have been written by anybody. And sometimes that may have been true, but often it wasn’t. And, and therefore the thing that I have learned over a long career is the ability to step back and be objective and say, Yep, that’s good. I think that’s gonna work. But actually, you know what, I don’t think that is as good as it could be. And I could work on it. And that’s very difficult when you have an emotional attachment to the work that you’re doing. Chris  And I think it’s worth also just zooming out a little bit here, to just remind us of why we get Neil to tell us about all of these individual behavioural biases, because we are hardwired to make bad decisions about money because we have all of these biases built into us from our experiences through life. And so recognising some of these behavioural biases will hopefully lead to us making better financial decisions. So that’s why we keep hearing from Neil and we will get more from him very grateful to him. And his company B IQ for what they’re doing that we should probably mention his app. Because you can do this for free, you can use his app called Beam – B E A M, it’s currently on iPhone only. But very soon, it will be on all formats. And you can play some games. And those games will then reveal your own behavioural biases. And so whether you have strong endowment effect or whether you are very susceptible to anchoring or what have you, Ovation has been using it quite a few years now. We’ve become trialling it it’s now available for everybody and you can use it for free and it’s a fascinating, it’s good fun to do. But the outcome is absolutely fascinating and will hopefully lead to you making better financial decisions. David  Excellent. Thanks for that, Chris. Right. Let’s move on then to the next in our regular features, which is Tight Ass Tommo. And regular listeners, the podcast will know that this feature started or many, many episodes ago where our producer Tommo took Chris and another colleague out to lunch, persuaded them to have a particular chicken dinner. And it turned out that this was one that he had a voucher for that he was able to get very, very cheaply. Thus the legend Tight Ass Tommo was born. Chris  And of course the expression Winner winner chicken dinner. David  Fantastic. So before we come on to Tommo’s tip, Chris, if you’ve got anything for us today, Chris  Just a real quickie actually a little name check for a local shop. And I’m sure David you use called Broccoli Stores on A370 just outside Backwell, where my son works and because he works there, we get 20% off. That’s my tip. Get your son to go and work at Broccoli Stores get 20% off lovely food. David  That’s great advice, Chris. So Tommo, come on. Give us your big tip for the day. We’re itching to hear it. Producer Tommo  Well. Hard one to follow that one. Just on Chris’s topic. I do do have some clients who work at a private school. No, not the only reason they work there but then get something like 50% discount on their child’s tuition fees. So yeah, get that out there. I once dated lady who worked for House of Fraser and got myself a 50% discount. So there you go. Chris  You stopped going out with her shortly afterwards? Producer Tommo  As soon as I got the discount, I mean, this was a long time ago. This is this is school aged Tom who couldn’t afford a pair of jeans so you know . . . Chris  The legend of Tight Ass Tommo really is going to live on, he actually went out with a girl just to get a discount at House of Fraser. Producer Tommo  Quite, less said about that, the better. And so my tip is one that I’ve mentioned before. And it’s just to reiterate the importance of this. And it was an experience that I had very recently. So two good friends of mine, fellow financial planners, imagine how riveting the conversations are, Rohan Sivajoti and Rich Ellis. We like whiskey. And we thought you know what, we’ve not had a catch up in a while. Why don’t we jump on a Zoom call, grab a glass of whiskey at the end of the day and just have a chip like Yeah, sure. Why not? We turn up Rohan had this glass tea cup for his whiskey. And I said, What are you doing, man? You’re a respectable business owner. What on earth? Are you doing not drinking out of a proper whiskey glass? He said, why is this all I’ve got? Okay, okay. Well, a couple of days later, he gets a delivery. And he sends his picture and Rich had decided, I’m going to buy Rohan a really nice set of whiskey glasses. It arrived Rohan was over the moon. I’m sure it gave Rich a great boost of wellbeing knowing that he was helping someone. I mean, I’m kicking myself that I wasn’t quick enough on the draw, I mean, how tight does that make me look? But the point is Rich, I’m sure is getting a huge amount of well being on spending money on others, the person who receives the gift gets a real boost knowing somebody’s thinking of them. And the person paying for the gift has a boost to their own well being. So there’s my tip, spend money on others. Heck, it could be time as well. David  That’s a great tip and and chatting as I am with two good old friends here, I just like to point out that my car is a bit decrepit now, won’t last much longer. Producer Tommo  There’s limits to this, this story, I’m sure, this example. Chris  Well, did you hear the George Clooney story? So George Clooney was, he he got paid to do a film ridiculous amount of money like $14 million, obviously, and he took it out in cash. And he then got a driver, I think they took like a postal delivery van or something instead make it look inconspicuous, and took bundles of cash, a million dollar bundles and went round a load of his friends that had helped him along the way and gave them a million dollars in cash each. And obviously he’s gonna get used wellbeing for that they’re gonna get there is a little bit of me that thinks that’s a little bit gauche. Just give him a check or give it to them in cash. But what a great moment that must have been to walk in and say ‘There you go, mate’. Bam, there’s a million dollars in cash. Thanks for all your help. Producer Tommo  Yeah David  That is the stuff of dreams. And I can imagine that obviously, it would be great for somebody to just walk in and give you that, but I’m sure that gave him a huge amount, he comes across as being a pretty decent guy anyway, and I’m sure that gave him a huge amount of pleasure to be able to repay those people that he thought had supported him. And clearly he’s working in an industry where you can get paid, you know, ludicrous amounts of money, so why not give a little bit of it back? Well done George. Lets move on. Thank you for that Tommo. Chris, what’s the interview about today? And who’s it with? Chris  So today we are going to hear from Tony Watts OBE. Tony is a director at a place called Engage Net, also a chair of the Southwest Alliance on Ageing director of Retire Easy as a copywriter, he ran a newspaper, what he called a newspaper called the Mature Times for many, many years. He’s been active in elderly issues for a long, long, long, long time. He’s also really nice guy and into his blues. So let’s have a listen to my chat with Tony Watts. Chris  Tony, thanks for joining us in the podcast. Tony Watts  Welcome. Chris  Do you want to start off by just, you and I have known each other a little while now we. . . Tony Watts  Too long some might say. Chris  You or me, yes. And occasionally we bump into each other at blues gigs. So we might talk about the blues but we should probably talk about money and happiness because it is the point of this. Tell us about the work that you’ve been doing for elder people over the years, it has resulted in a certain award. Tony Watts  Okay, well, it’s all started by accident. I won’t give you the long version, which begins with me accidentally running over a cat in Clifton. But it led on for me to the person knocked on the door ended up doing a big marketing campaign for the Isle of Wight. And that was aimed at older people and the only publication that back in the mid 80s. And the only publication I could find at that time to to address older people and connect with them was a publication that was based in Bristol called Golden Age, and is based in Victoria Street in Albert House, curiously, and I ended up in another series of accidents being asked to edit it. The publishers asked had I ever edited a newspaper before and I lied. I’ve got the gig basically. So I . . . Chris  Always say yes, and work out the detail later. Yeah. I like it. Tony Watts  . . . the truth of it. So I ended up publishing what was then the very first publication for older people. And it’s a newspaper, monthly newspaper. And that went fairly well. And that sort of morphed over the years into the first publication, I had a direct involvement financially in setting up this publication called Mature Times. And that was back in the early 90s. And I’d been out doing a group of local papers by then for somebody and I got together with a bunch of people over in Wales. And we set up what was then a fairly adventurous programme of getting a paper together which went out nationally and with regional versions, we looked at all the big issues around retirement. And we were aiming really at the retired person, and we got about 400,000 circulation is a big beast in those days. So I was editing that and really got very involved with the campaign side for later life and trying to work out how you make later life better. And there’s obviously a very interconnected area. And I think people look at how serious single issues and think that’s the solution was not you need to look at finance, housing, health care, or what you do with life. So we tried to focus on all those things that make for a better retirement. And my involvement with that paper sort of ebbs and flows over the years, and I sold my stake in 2010/11. And sort of got pounced upon by people who are representing older people in the government. And they say, well, you know, with your knowledge, would you actually act as a chair for the Southwest forum on ageing, I’ve been doing that ever since. So that acts as, I do that about one, sometimes two days a week, and for quite a few years, we were talking directly to government. We were advising them on new strategies or new bills that were coming forward, giving input from all these feeder groups, a lot of people into how to make legislation and how to make policy more effective. And it wasn’t just about spending more money, it was actually starting from the premise of this fixed pot of money. How do you make that work more effectively. And I got very involved because of my background in doing the comms. So I ended up leading the comms and all that. And then we set up something called the Age Action Alliance. And that brought together lots of people from all around the country, working together on projects to try and, again, make life better for older people. But the most important piece of work probably was I acted as a conduit and deliver the information into the House of Lords on a big report, which came out in 2012, which was called Ready For Ageing, question mark. And the whole report was looking at the way society and government in particular is gearing itself up to the challenges and the opportunities of later life living. And I’ll emphasise that because not just about challenges, people do worry about the downsides of an ageing society. But there are some upsides as well to that. So I ended up saying, given the input, I think that had an influence into the way housing and social care, the health may have been more coordinated, especially health social care. So that ended up unbeknownst to me, obviously, somebody noticed somewhere high up. And I was nominated for an OBE back in 2014, which came as a bit of a surprise, but it’s been a very helpful thing because it enables me to go out, with a few initials after name, sometimes speak at conferences, write articles, and give me a bit more clout when I’m trying to do what I’m trying to do. Chris  A bit of a door opener? Tony Watts  It is a door opener. Yeah, it is a door opener that people take slightly more seriously. Not everyone’s bad. I understand that and it’s been cynically used the honour systems over the years since Lloyd George was around so it’s not just theres minus sides as well. But I think it does allow me to speak with slightly more authority on the key issues that matter to me and to older people. Chris  Yeah, I think it’s fair to say just on that there’s been a big move over the last I don’t know whatever decade couple of decades to make the honour system, at least a large part of it to reward people that deserve rewarding and there’s no doubt you will be one of them. I don’t think we have any, any danger of that. So, there’s a few things in that that were quite interesting. A lot that was interesting. But I just wanted to ask you to define how you would explain what a better later life is. Chris  So thats really quite a big one that everyone’s coming from a different place and it’s got different ambitions and different life situations, so there’s no one size fits all here. I think it’s about looking at each individual and working out what works best for them what can work best for them. But the key point in all this is there’s no good waiting until the day you start picking up your state pension or your company pension before we start planning retirement or later life if you have to really go start much earlier than that. And that’s the the one of the things I talked about in the book in a minute but it later life for many people starts I guess in their 50s, often their careers either start to plateau out, or they start to really get to the very top levels. And the priorities in life start to change as well. I mean, you won’t necessarily just bring up young family or just trying to strive to get onto the housing ladder, you’re, you’re looking hopefully at the bigger picture. I’m not sure how you feel about the case, obviously, you’re a bit younger than me, but you start looking at life slightly differently. But you do need to think about how you make the most of the last 20/30 years of your life, and it is I hate to use ‘the last bit’ it is I mean, I’m 67, I’m starting to really focused now on how to make the most of my next 15 years, I guess, if I’m, if I’m lucky. And it’s a matter of working, working together with your finances, your relationships, and your health, and what you how you purpose your life. And I think that’s something that’s really, really significant, and most people drop out of work into some sort of chasm. You see this all the time. I would say with men who’ve been in senior positions, they’ve had fairly high status, they’ve, you know, had authority, they’ve had a purpose in getting up every morning, and suddenly, you know, they’ve got nothing to really hang their life on apart from, you know, the personal relationships. And I think there’s an awful lot of work that can be done between employers and employees, but also, obviously, individuals themselves looking at how they map out those last, those last 15/20/30 years to work out what’s best for them and those around them. Chris  I think that’s spot on. We see that a lot with Ovation with with clients, elderly clients, elderly, like clients moving into retirement. And we so often you ask somebody see, what’s your plan, and they haven’t really thought about it? Tony Watts  Yeah Chris  I just tell one slightly depressing story. But there was one chap who worked for the same company for 45 years. And he had no plans about what he was going to do in retirement. He had a lovely, lovely defined benefit pension scheme, and then spent most of his time looking after the grandkids. And he died after six months of his retirement of a heart attack. Tony Watts  And well, this used to happen years ago, I remember when back in the Golden Age years I mean, people used to sort of get their clock in those days, I’m not sure when people get clocks these days, it’s bit of a morbid reminder of time ticking, but . . . Chris  I never thought of that that is quite insensitive. Tony Watts  Look at that on the on the shelf there, minutes of his grandfather’s clock. But people used to basically come out of retirement having worked really physically hard as well. And the last thing you should think about doing necessarily when you retire is putting your feet up. And I think also there’s the concept of a phased retirement now, which wasn’t there before. And I think you can taper, taper the word work into the word of word of retirement. As I say, I’m 67, I’ve got the luxury of not having to work every day of the week. And I consciously put my most into every day that I might be working on, in the gym, on with my grandchildren, I do my volunteer work, but every day is purposed. And I think you do need to have that, you know, thing functioning in your life when you get up to something every day. I mean, every morning at about seven, eight o’clock, putting a daily newspaper together, which I give a plug to it’s called Later Life Agenda. And it gives you a digest of all the news affecting all the people every day. Chris  I follow you on Twitter and see it on Twitter quite often. Tony Watts  It is really important because it basically brings together all the news stories and features from all around the world as well, around later life living. And that that’s the thing that gets me out of bed in the morning and also keeps me current. And that’s the other thing about retirement is that you see some people whose lives are so wrapped up in in things that are personal to them, they lose their currency, they lose an understanding of the wider world and that’s why I think still working as I do is great because, you know, as long as I’m able to because I still stay current in terms of understanding how the world is working, especially the world of work. Chris  Yeah, there’s a comment you made earlier about making the most of the hours and and I carry with me quite a lot the time a little book by the philosopher Seneca called On The Shortness of Life. And then the the line on the front of the page, which just does stay at my thoughts quite a lot as I get older it is ‘life is long, if you know how to use it’. Yeah, which is a great line and I find myself you know, I’m in a position now having sold my business and I’m doing other things I get to choose most of the time, choose what I do. And I’ve had a little principle for a little while of I’ll just say yes to everything and see what happens. And that’s great. It’s actually not about you know that a lot of the time advice is that you know, you’ve got to say no to more things, I think say yes to more things. Yeah, it’s taken me in some very interesting directions, I’m saying no to a few things because it’s getting a bit silly. But it’s not a bad philosophy that says it. Tony Watts  I agree. And this is half full/half empty life approach, I’d also bring in the concept which comes in to the book of mine that’s having a young brain and an old brain, which is something that that I hadn’t heard of before. But a guy called Tim Drake, who’s written a very good book called Second Bite of the Cherry. I recommend that to anybody who’s thinking about having an encore career or thinking about reinventing themselves after they finish their job, which may not happen at time of their choosing. That’s the other thing people sometimes find themselves out of the role they had voluntarily. But those of us when we were younger, we, we adapt to change, because we have to adapt to change, like life changing on a daily basis. And so many people’s brains start to age 18. And we find it harder and harder to adapt to new situations, and they won’t welcome change 10% of people carry on through life having a young brain. So they actually welcome change, or seek to adapt. And it works well for them. And if you look at where Darwin started, it wasn’t about survival of the fittest, it was survival of those who could adapt to their environment, and were living in a fast moving world. I mean, in my years, I’ve seen so much change, and it’s nothing compared to what’s going to happen next. And if you’re going to be equipped to deal with life, you have to be equipped to adapt. I mean, Chris  How do you do that, though Tony, how do you get a young brain not an old brain? Tony Watts  I think you have to sort of do what you said. And that is say yes to more things. And don’t shut the door. Because your frightened of something happening that you might not, you know, be comfortable for you move out of your comfort zone on a regular basis. Try things you haven’t tried before. And I, I’m sat here next to your guitar, by the way. And all through my life, I’ve always wanted to play music, and I guess I couldn’t, not the opportunity as a child and funnel that into my children. I’ve got two children who make a living out of music. And I was I was at a conference recently talking. And it was in the evening. And this lady said to me, what you talk today about adapting and staying young and keep you know et cetera, et cetera. What are you doing? I said, Well, and it’s about what, what new, new thing have you done lately? And I said, well I haven’t done anything new lately if I’m really honest about it? Well, she said, I’m 60 something, about the same age as me, I’ve just taken up the clarinet, why don’t you take up the clarinet. And I said, Okay, then. So back into the last year, I started taking clarinet lessons. And it’s, I’ve suddenly discovers whole new world. And it’s just opened up my mind and my life. And I’m feeling much more fulfilled, it’s rewiring my brain, I think as well which, and is that willingness to actually try something new. Go out of your comfort zone, and be prepared to embarrass yourself even but, but don’t shut them shut the barriers down because it’s not something you’ve done before. Chris  I having played guitar all my life, taking the guitar to dinner parties and what have you lots and lots of times over the years, people have said, God, I wish I could play the guitar. I wish I could play an instrument. Of course, I’d say well, why don’t you then? Yeah, say, Well, why don’t you? I don’t have the time. And all you need is 10 minutes a day. That’s it. You just don’t watch the telly for 10 minutes. Watch 10 minutes less television and use that 10 minutes, just practising your piece. And if you do that everyday, you’d be amazed how quickly you progress at an instrument. And nobody’s trying to say you’re not gonna be a concert pianist or anything. It’s just fun. Music is fun. So yes, that’s great stuff. Tony Watts  Yeah, yeah, I’m not being immodest here, but it turns out, I can actually play reasonably well. And I am working towards my ambition of playing Chattanooga Choo Choo. I really want to play jazz in a band now. That’s what I really, I think I’m a couple of years away from that. I’m aiming for that anyway. Chris  Fantastic. So you’ve mentioned your book, tell us what your books all about. Okay, well, this project started a while ago. I’m sure you’ve heard of a company called Punter Southall by their CEO, a very, very interesting man called Steve Butler. He got in contact as he was writing a book around intergenerational workforces. I gave some input into that, and that books come out and I would recommend that to anybody, any employer out there who is struggling, with the fact that there mix employees is not quite as cohesive as it might be. Because nowadays you have older people staying in work longer, younger people churn through the system quicker, how’d you get a better sort of more cohesive mix inside a business of the generations? How do you make the most of those different talents? So that book came out end of the last year that’s done very well. And, and thats called Manage The Gap. I, commend it highly. But we’ve found that with several is one element in the book, which is the midlife review, which we mentioned what he meant. He mentioned well, but but it’s something I’ve felt very passionate about, and asked him to mention it in the book. And he’s done that. But he said, well, let’s do something more detailed around this. And the midlife review is something that a guy called Steven McNair, started off at least 10, maybe 10 years ago now. And I got involved with it. I work, working to government, basically. So we were asked for input on this. And the idea is that all employees once they reach a certain age and defined age was certainly 50/50 onwards, should we having a sensible conversation with their employer to work out where they go from here? And were they, okay, because what you have at the moment, you’ve got an ageing society, a demographic within the workforce? How do you make the most of those times. How do you keep retraining them for the changes that are ahead? How do you make the most of their talents, when perhaps, they need to be skilling at any one point, because all the skills that we used 20 years ago aren’t necessarily the ones we use now and extrapolate onward. But also, more importantly, companies like Aviva since got involved and a very big way. And they got involved when they thought it’d be nice to do. Have these midlife review projects and watch your employees, our old employees want from their later years. And they suddenly looked at their, their business plan going forward and realised there was a big chunk of them, their workers would be disappearing soon, many of them have got comfortable DB pensions they could leave at time of their choosing. And if they all left because they could leave, they will suddenly have this skills gap, which will be quite frankly, sort of very serious for the business. So they’ve implement, they’re starting to implement this on a regular basis, inviting people in on a no commitment basis, you haven’t got to do it. But they look at their work ambitions and their work restrictions and also their caring responsibilities. Would they prefer to work flexibly would they prefer to actually work two or three days a week or four days a week, because they have caring responsibilities coming up. Would they like to change role into the future. Because sometimes people get locked into a job. And they don’t want to say anything, because they’ll appeared to be unambitious or not be part of the team. But it’s not what they enjoy doing anymore, or they’re finding it too onerous. The starting, starting point of all of this is the financial audit. And you do this on a regular basis Chris with your guys. And you look at individual and say, Well, here you are, you’re actually is when do you want to retire, how much you want to retire on? And what would be comfortable? How do you reach that point? And so doing a financial audit on each individual would tell them if they could afford to retire, when they could afford to retire, when they could afford to start phasing their work commitments down and put in a financial plan that fitted around their life ambitions and their personal ambitions. And alongside that, there’s a there’s a health audit as well. And people should go to either health doctor and check out your health. Chris  One of the five planks of financial well being is a clear path to achieve identifiable objectives. Yeah, and you know what, I think I’ve probably been a little bit guilty. And if any of our listeners have been as well of thinking a clear path of identifiable objectives tends to be in the wealth creation phase, and the early part of life. But what you’re basically saying, is it mid/later life as you’re thinking about maybe within 10 years of retirement and or moving into your next phase of life, you still need a clear path to identifiable objectives, don’t you? That’s what your talking about. Tony Watts  Where the interesting thing where this has moved on from is it was in the beginning, it seems like a one off hit, you know, you sat down with your employer and did it and there was your mapped out next 10/15 years? No, this should be a regular review. But there’s just personal circumstances, constantly changing. The company’s circumstances are constantly changing. And it does need to have an honest conversation. And sometimes, maybe you have a buffer between a broker who actually conducts these conversations. And that’s another possibility. But, But health is one of them. Because people often disregard their health in their middle ears. It’s up, you know, you’re working all the hours, you’re running around, looking after the kids. And so you have this gap. I see this, I’m in the gym quite a lot now because I’ve got time to do it and got younger people in there. And you’ve got people my age and beyond. Very few people are in there and those middle years and they really should be focusing on making sure you’ve got your body sorted out for the next 10/20/30 years as well. And its mental well being as well as mental health issue. Some of you understand, I know that. But your objectives, I think, look at your objectives again, what’s your health objective? What’s your, you know, your financial objective? What’s your personal relationship objective? All these things need to be mapped out, I think. Chris  And actually, if you’ll forgive me for going slightly on a tangent, this is the work that I do on employee ownership. One of the things that we talk about there is owners or business owners, small business owners should do with their key employees have a combined career and financial plan. Yeah, you sit down together, and you say, right, what do you want your future to look like? Let’s see how, what the business needs from you put the two together, see what you could get paid, see what you could afford, and come up with a combined career and financial plan. I’ve always thought of that as like a, you know, an owner with his senior management team, that that kind of thing. But the idea of doing that in a big corporate, I mean, that’s fantastic. That’s wonderful that the likes of Aviva are doing this. Have you had success in getting other companies to, to look at this? Tony Watts  It’s, it’s obviously this is very much pilot stage. Business in the Community, the organisation that sort of piloted this and have been promoting it, and they, they’ve got a lot of influence out there. What has happened since then, is that the government itself, thinks this is a great idea, because they want people to be working for longer and being economically active for longer. And they also want people to be less dependent, in terms of health. So they think this is a great idea, but they’re leaving it to the system to work its way out. And other people are looking at it and Legal & General for instance did a pilot on it and people like Mercer have been looking at it as well. But it hasn’t really, really taken off. He I think it sounds like you’re doing a large part of this work, you’re not doing it in quite the same way Chris. Chris  Well, I’m now thinking that people who have business in the community that could be part of our financial well being the initiative of financial wellbeing, we can we can spread the word on this, I think this is a lovely idea. And this is, you know, obviously, your book is part of this as well, which is going to be out . . Chris  Its called Midlife Review Wealth, Working Wellbeing. Myself and Steve Butler, are co-authors. But what we do in there is map out why employers should look at this quite seriously, why employee, you should look at it quite seriously. And then look at the mechanisms for making it happen. And we picked on the ways that, different ways people try to exit and the conclusion we came to again is no one size fits all. If you’re a small company, it’s not the same as Aviva looking at this issue, because you’ve got different structures and different and different barriers sometimes to to making this work. And but it I think there’s huge advantages to any employer to look more holistically at their workforce and think well, okay, I’m, I’m chugging along quite nicely in there. But where will I be in five years time? Where will my workforce be? What, what will constitute, what ages will there be? Chris  Yeah, it’s just good business planning Tony isn’t it, sensible business planning. Tony Watts  It is, an essential business plan, I’m not sure where it’s a part of every business plan, you look at your, your markets, you look at your products or services, you aren’t necessarily looking at the workforce, they’re gonna service that and how you need to train these people up to to perform those new roles, and where they’re going to come from. As I mentioned before, younger people aren’t necessarily going to be as easy to recruit as perhaps you might think, because these guys don’t hang around these days, that one two years is often the most, some people will stay in the job. They’re looking for the next career move, and you need to either incentivize them as you’re talking about, or be prepared to provide lots more incentives for older people to stay in the workforce. Chris  What you’ve just said there Tony totally fits right into a bit of a bee in my bonnet, if I may, just for a second. The idea of, of the younger generation moving job every couple of years, I’ve got a really strong belief that the reason for that isn’t because they’re somehow flightier, than our generation. I think it’s because there’s a disconnect between what owners are giving their employees and what the younger employees want. Because we’re Thatcher’s children, we grew up in Thatcher years, and we see success in financial terms. And a lot of the bosses and owners and the senior management of corporates, they are all also Thatcher’s children and see success in financial terms. But millennials and the younger generation, they don’t tend to they’re far more interested in purpose, all the climate change stuff going on, they don’t even know if there’s gonna be a life on the planet in 30/40 years time. So they’re much more interested in purpose. So I just think that they’re moving around so often not because they want career moves necessarily, but because they’re trying to find a job that will align with what they want out of life. It absolutely is a big change that employers could learn from. Tony Watts  Well I think back to the book I mentioned earlier on the intergenerational workforce, that explores that in detail, it looks at the motivations for each generation, you can’t be too bored, obviously, Millennials don’t think the same way as we do. They’re looking for work for somebody they can really believe in was years ago, you’d happily work for a tobacco company or an oil company was these guys will look askance at working for someone who’s Corporate values may not align with their own. I think also looking at the workplace, and one of the things I write about is property, business property. And the places that people work are having to change because people don’t want to work in the same sort of workplaces, they want to work in more collaborative situations. They don’t want to sit at desks on their own, where there’s no connection between them and the outside world. They want to work from home more often, so they can have a better work/life balance. And employers need to understand that’s what will drive that generation of people and keep/retain them. Whereas it may be slightly different for people of you know, the people in the 40s and 50s, and possibly 60s who will look at work in quite a different sort of way, neither wrong or right, you simply need to look at it as motivation. So employee benefits, employee motivation, needs to be geared towards the individual, rather than having a one size fits all. Chris Budd Yeah, well there’s a perfect summary of what financial wellbeing and what financial planning is all about. It’s not a one size fits all. Know thyself. Work out what works for you. Tony thank you for that. Thank you for joining us on the Podcast. We will put lots of information about your book and other resources in the shownotes. Thanks very much for you time, really appreciate it. Tony Watts Nice to chat with you, we must meet up sometime. David  Well fascinating interview that was. I found Tony a really interesting character and I have to say Chris I’m just going to give you a little plug I thought that was a really good interview as well I thought knew your team some really interesting stuff out the way. Now I can obviously identify I think with a lot of what Tony says I’m just a couple of years younger than him. You know, and I’m at a similar stage in my life when I’m talking about, as he identified the challenges and opportunities of later life living and the one thing that he said that really resonated to me. You know it’s time now to think about how you make the most of the last 15/20 years of your life, and putting it bluntly, you know, that’s probably where I’m at now in my life. I still think of myself as being, like everybody has a locked in age, mines 28, I still think I am. But I’m not, I’m 65 and statistically, I actually look this up the other day, I typed in my age my demographics and all of that to find out when I was likely to die, and it’s probably 83. I’ve got 18 years to go. So, life for me now is less about an endless series of possibilities and ambitions and goals that I want to achieve. It’s how can I make the most of my life. While I’ve still got my health, where I’ve got, you know, relatively good amount of money, in which to enjoy myself and a partner who I’m very happy with. How can I get through the rest of my life. Hopefully avoiding getting ill and, and enjoying myself as much as I could. I love the story about, about the fact that, you know, people used to get a retired clock. And he always found that a morbid reminder of time ticking away, and that’s certainly something that I’ve never been interested in. He talked as well about the, the last thing to think about on retirement is putting your feet up. And certainly that’s always been my attitude to life anyway, you know, although I am now on the cusp, I’m still very much working, writing for doctors, writing another novel. But I’m doing it less now because I have to I’m doing it now because I want to. And in between those times when I’m sitting down working, I’m looking at how I can actually get out there and enjoy myself. So, I’m doing more gardening I got. I run 4k three times a week. So, as he says we should be looking, people of our age to welcome change, and seek to adapt and that’s always been my philosophy in life anyway. And it was great to hear somebody else voicing that in such a clear way. Chris Budd I think his take on retirement, retirement doesn’t mean retirement anymore. It’s, you don’t just stop work. There’s an Aegon survey that I’ve heard recently where something like 85% of people continue to do some form of work in retirement. Well, then they’re not retired are they, you know because they’re still working. They’re just doing a different type of work, maybe something they want to do or maybe it’s charity or voluntary. So, taking time with your financial planner to say, not just my retirement age is a certain age but what are you actually going to do? What will life look like? I heard a really good tip on this recently. And I’m really annoyed I can’t remember the financial planner who said it, so my apologies if he’s listening, but it was what he says to his clients is, at the moment you have lots of social relationships through your work, social contact, when you retire, a lot of that will stop. So how are you going to replace it? I think that’s a really good tip to ask. Producer Tommo  Are you sure it wasn’t me? Chris  Sorry, Tom Morris, the other day said . . . Producer Tommo  This is exactly the conversation that, that I have with, with people if I think about that transition. I just will mention those that I find, from my experience, those that are at your stage of life David that it’s so tangible for them I feel as though they are so focused on wanting to get this right, which does make the coaching conversations that much richer and we can get a lot deeper because of that, from my personal experience. But yeah, there are, there is a key thing here. That purpose we talked about in the last episode that thing that gets us up out of bed is often linked to our, the thing that pays you know pays the bills or careers, you know if you if you’ve got a career for the purpose, then great. But just because you might switch off the income producing career doesn’t necessarily mean that career stops. A career could mean an all manner of things. I think the traditional mindset of what work is, is changing, and how we fill our time. And then the social interactions is just so important, how we are getting those. And I would argue that people are feeling that importance right now. During 2020, where a lot of those interactions are being turned off for them. David  There’s a story, and I may well have told this on a previous podcast, in which case, I apologize, I think it’s is right for this moment. I remember when I was a young man. I was hitchhiking from up north where my parents lived down to London and I got given a lift though a guy, his name was Bill. And he was 80. And he was from the West Midlands and we were driving down and he was a really interesting engaging guy. And he worked for, at the age of 80, as a volunteer for Age Concern. I remember him saying to me he said, the thing is he said, I love to work with the old people, because I like to look after the old people, this is an 80 year old man telling me this story. And I remember he said when I retired one of the last things I wanted to do was sit on a wall in me slippers, watching the world go by, I wanted to get out there and make a difference. And that’s always stuck with me. And that’s always been my ambition for my retirement, which is, as Chris says, is only going to be semi-retirement anyway. The last thing I want to do is sit on a wall and watch the world go by. And I thought Tony summed that up very well, he said there are so many people often, men but for women as well, whose whole life is channelled into their work. And then all of a sudden they find that’s not there anymore. They’re spending time at home with a partner that they perhaps don’t know very well because they have always been out of work and may not actually like that much either. And therefore, I think it’s pretty important to have good sense of purpose in you into that later part of your life. Okay, so that’s a very interesting chat we’ve had there. Thanks as ever to Chris, and to Tom for their contributions, and I hope you’ll join us again next time we do another one of our financial wellbeing podcasts.

Episode 69 – Finding Financial Planners with Kate Holmes How do you go about finding a financial advisor to help you with financial wellbeing? We have a great chat with Kate Holmes for you in this episode. Kate is a big advocate of financial planning and helps advisors in America to deliver financial planning rather than just financial advice. Lots of really good tips to help people find the right adviser for them, especially those who help people spend their money on increasing their wellbeing. Along with Bage’s Biases and #tightasstommo’s money saving ideas . . . Welcomes & Introductions What is today’s podcast all about? A chat with Kate Holmes all about explaining what financial Wellbeing really is to both Adviors and Clients.Link to Kate’s Innovating Advice podcast Bages Biases Every episode, Behavioral Finance expert, Neil Bage is going to be giving us his money behavioral tip. Exploring and thinking a little bit about the behavioral traits we have towards money can inform us, so we can make better money decisions going forward.– Link to Episode 36 – Understanding our attitude to risk– Link to Episode 21 – Financial capability– Link to BeIQ | Beam App This episode – Anchoring #TightAssTommo Featuring . . . Cut price hot tubs (just don’t ask where the bubbles come from ), choosing an executor for your will and finding out if your pension is being underpaid – click here to visit the LCP.uk.com website for more details Interview with Kate Holmes Kate currently lives in Las Vegas – and explains it is not all about the gambling Kate has been in the industry or profession for over 15 years, and has seen over and over again – it’s not about the investments. It’s not about products. At the heart of it all, it’s actually helping people figure out what they want from life Kate wants to change the conversations and show people what financial planning really is – that inner search first and then using money as a tool second What are the typical things clients want to use money for? Dreams that people don’t always allow themselves to think about. Is payment a form of validation? What are the main blockages that stop people using wealth to be happier? People don’t know what actually being happier looks like Financial Planners need to first do this work themselves before they work with clients The trouble is knowing what you actually want Taking the time to stop and do nothing for a while, in order to work out what you do want A global financial crisis will have devastating conversations, but there are also a lot of bright points at the same time. The crisis becomes a catalyst for saying ‘So that’s gone, what do you want?’ Different attitudes to money around the world People really are ready to work with advisors who arn’t just trying to sell a product or manage investments. They want someone to help really figure our what they want their life to look like and creating a plan with their money to do that. Chris and his experience trying to find financial advice with no assets to invest. Financial Planner, Financial Coach, what name do we apply? What should we be looking for when we want to engage an advisor who understands wellbeing, finding purpose and not just talking about investments? talk to at least three diverse advisorsGoogle search then take some time reading through websites, do they talk about wellbeing and life-0style planning?are they transparent with pricing?listen out for the first questions they ask, how quickly do they ask how much you have to invest What has living in Las Vegas taught Kate about people’s relationship with money? Conclusions from the guys Click here for more information on the Initiative for Financial Wellbeing Do you have any financial wellbeing questions you would like us to answer? Or do you have a #tightasstommo money saving tip you would like to share with our listeners? If so, let us know by going to Twitter @Finwellbeing or email – contact@financialwell-being.co.uk If you would like to purchase a copy of The Financial Wellbeing Book please click on this link to visit Penny Brohn UK shop Transcribe of the Podcast Script: (scroll to the bottom to listen to the episode) David Hello everybody and welcome to another one in our long running series of Financial Wellbeing Podcasts. As ever in recent weeks, and indeed months, we’ve been doing these in a socially distanced way so instead of in a room together, we all gather on our laptops in our own different houses. My name is David Lloyd, and joining me today is Chris Budd. Chris Good morning. David And Tom Morris Producer Tommo Good morning. Producer Tommo Is that our intro’s done? David Yeah. No, no no . . . Chris I thought we might try and up the professionalism a little bit Tommo, what do you think? Producer Tommo I think that that long went! David We’ve done that, we’ve done the professionalism. Now let’s have the meaningless chat Chris, what’s bothering you? Chris Well, you know what David, this week, I did something that is going to be the last time in my entire life that I do it, I reckon. I bought a new cricket bat. I only play 20 over games, three or four times a year. I can’t imagine I’m ever gonna need another one but it is a bit of a beaut to have to say. I played with it on Wednesday, and the first ball that was delivered to me, sent for four David Nice one Producer Tommo This is really important that you have a good bat, because you’re not doing the running like you used to do, so you need to make sure it reaches the boundry. David I have my cricket bat which I’ve now had for 10 years, it doesn’t get a lot of things I have to say. It was given to me by a professional cricketer who’s been given a whole selection of bats by his sponsor, and this was one that he just didn’t take to. It’s the best I’ve ever had he’s far too good for me. It’s got a lot more runs in it that I’m never going to score, but yeah but I still going. But I know exactly what you mean Chris. How you doing, Tommo? Producer Tommo Do you know, I’m all right. Actually, yeah, on the sports theme, and we’re recording this in this, in the summer. So, this is probably going to be going out in the middle of the winter so you know this is the way we try and get ahead of time, and I had my best round of golf yesterday. All summer. I was delighted, I scored, those you know golf, I scored 39 on Stapleford. Yeah, Chris Yeah. Chris Thats got your handicap cut that is. Producer Tommo It is. It got I’ve got one of these electronic ones because I’m not member at courses, I play wherever I can get around in, and it cut me last night, so I’m quite chuffed, yeah, yeah. Beat the old man four and three as well. So yeah, Chris That’s what really matters. Let’s be honet Producer Tommo Loser buys the round so . . . David Right so what’s on today’s podcast Chris. Chris Today we have an interview with a lovely American lady called Kate Holmes, who has been a financial advisor, but now trains financial advisors and how to give our type of advice, financial wellbeing and financial planning advice. So she’s got loads of really good tips for people about their money. David Great, looking forward to her insight, but before we do, it’s time for our two regular features. I will start with the first of those two which is Bage’s Behavioural Biases. So, this is where an old friend of the podcast, behavioural finance expert Neil Bage, gives us his one minute introduction with different behavioural bias that affects how we make decisions about money. This week, Neil is going to tell us about Anchoring. Neil Bage When people are trying to make a decision, they often use an anchor, or a focal point as a good place to start. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to rely too heavily on the first piece of information they see, that anchor, which can have a big impact on the decisions they end up taking. There was a great experiment from New York that proves the power of anchoring, with a bit of framing thrown in for good measure. So New York cabs, that carried a traditional tip option where riders would enter their tip amount found that on average their tip level was 9%. Now they knew they wanted to increase this level. So, in experimental cabs, they added in a new machine that anchored people to a different set of numbers. They pre-programmed tip amounts in, starting with the highest going down to the lowest. So, 30% 25% 20%, and then other. So what did they find? Well, they found a big difference in the outcome. A 13% difference to be exact. Tips jumped to an average of 22%. Now just to put that into context on a $20 cab ride that tip went for $1.80 to $4.40. Now on those numbers and assuming 30 cab customers a day. It meant that drivers tips, increased by around $78, a day, just by changing the way that the information was presented, which can have a significant impact on the outcome. Anchoring is really powerful. And we should be aware of how anchored we are to the information we absorb as we go through our daily lives. David Wow that’s quite significant, isn’t it about how if you if you let people choose themselves they may not necessarily be as generous as if you just leave them in a certain direction. Chris Yeah, this is used all the time and advertising and marketing to get you to spend more money than you might like to. I mean, there’s two for one offers, and I’m not suggesting this happens all the time, but I suspect on occasion – what you do is you increase the price by 50% and then say, third one free. Three is the price of two sort of stuff. So there’s loads of different ways that this is used to get us to spend more money than we need, and being aware of it and particularly being aware of how susceptible you personally are to it, can make a big difference to how you spend money on your happiness. Producer Tommo Just think about a financial planning example, a couple that come to mind. The business owner has once been told his business is worth x. It might not be reality but they anchor themselves to that, that price, that they sre told the value the business might be, it’s very difficult for them to get away from that. The other one is an estate agent overinflated the house, the value of your house because they want your business. And again you then get very wedded to that’s what the house is worth, and I’m not willing to shift on it. Just two examples that I can think of where anchoring a position yourself particular value means that you’re unable to really shift yourself. Chris There’s another example as well which is about comparison. I’m going to quote Roosevelt again, because I think it’s such a great quote that “comparison is the thief of joy”. And there’s one study which offered people, a choice of two salaries salary – one was 50,000, by the way everybody else you know is earning 200,000. Or you can have a salary of 30,000, oh by the way everybody else should know is earning 20,000. And the vast majority of people choose the lower salaries, because it was anchored against a lower figure. So it’s a fascinating subject to anchoring and it’s used all the time in money. Producer Tommo We have said in previous podcasts we’re working closely with Neil, he’s got a, an app out there called the BEAM, you can get it on Apple I believe at the moment. David Can you just spell that for us Tommo? Producer Tommo B-E-A-M, So you go on your Apple store and I believe is coming through Android, type in BEAM, and you will get this BEAM, Self-Aawareness is the one. And you go in there and you just do all these tests, gamified quite fun. Don’t even realise what areas they’re trying to test and it will come out and it will look at something by anchoring how much you receptive to anchoring. And then we use use this data and it links through with something we’ve got at Ovation, we talk to clients about this, and we let them understand where the’re positioned are, and it can be really eye opening and help them with some of the decisions they’ve made in the past. And the way that they make decisions. So, I thought I’d mention that that is going on, and and check out that app. David Right, thank you very much, but don’t go Tommo, because we’re going to come back to you in a minute because it’s time for our next feature #tightasstommo. But I’m going to kick off this time with a way to save yourself a substantial amount of money, indeed, several thousand pounds. For some time now, it’s always been my dream to have a hot tub. I’ve always thought that would be nice. Be nice to be out in the garden you know in the sunny weather or perhaps even when it’s a bit cold. Looking at the stars, sitting in a hot tub. You know, a decent, hot tub is going to cost you £5000 – £6000, and at the moment I didn’t really feel justified spending that amount of money. So guess what listeners, I built my own! You can go on my Twitter, @dave_backwell and see a photograph of it. I’m rather proud of it and my partner Gale and I used it once and it was absolutly marvelous. Now it’s not a hot tub with disco music and bells and all of that it’s basically an outdoor bath, that you fill from a hose pipe that comes out of the kitchen window, and then you sit in it. But because of the insulation, it stayed warm for about three hours. In fact, it was so warm we had to get out at one point and put a little cold water into it, because it wouldn’t go cold. That cost me, the plastic drinking trough that was free. The polystyrene was given to me. I use some old bits of fence panelling, I had to go buy some odd bits of woods and timber framing, a little bit of decking at the top. I reckon it cost me about £150 tops. Chris I’m rather nervous about asking this question David, but where did the bubbles come from? David There are no bubbles unless you make your own. Producer Tommo Why did I know you’re gonna go there! Sorry listeners. David Basically you fill it up and then you drain it away. Now you may say well that’s a hell of a waste water, which, if that was all you did with it, it would be. I am in the process of getting myself a submersible pump, so that I can put that into the hot tub, pump the water out into a big tub, and then use that to water the garden Producer Tommo I love that David So ther you are, save yourself a load of money by building your own hot tub Producer Tommo Or employ you to do it? David Actually, that wouldn’t be a bad idea because I could do with the money at the moment! Chris what have you got for us? Chris Mine far more serious than that brilliant one David. If anybody’s writing a will, they will have to make a decision about an executor. The executor of the will is the person who enacts the will when the time comes, and my tip is get a friend or family member to be the executor. Do not let the solicitor, or particularly the bank, appoint themselves as executor, which quite often happens. The bank, some banks charge up to 3% of an estate value for acting as an executor, this is a hugely expensive and I mean literally 10 times more than you would otherwise need to pay. So if you get a friend to do it, then they can of course appoint a solicitor to give them the advice later to give him the legal advice, but your cost will be massively low and when when somebody is dealing with somebodies estate, the last thing they want to be doing is having arguments about who’s executors because it’s obviously a difficult time. So, yeah, when you appoint your executor make sure it’s a trusted family or friend, Chris Having been executor or both my parents world, it’s actually not that difficult a process. Producer Tommo So I’ve had similar experience recently unfortunately where some clients of Ovation passed away, and the family executor is employing as alongside a really well qualified probate solicitor to help and guide them has worked really well and this is the combination of experts on our side, on the probate side and the executor in the middle. And ultimately, a lot of the things that somebody can do at a lower cost, they can do, but when you need the expertise, bring them in and it means that you are paying for exactly what you need so it’s worked. I’ve seen it work, and I completely agree with you and Chris on that one. So yeah, I’m with you all the way. Anyway, you want to know my tip don’t you? David Okay, so never let it be said that we don’t cover lots of interesting different topics on this podcast. So we’ve had build your own hot tub. We’ve had appoint a decent and cheap executor, but now let’s go back to the Titan of Tightness himself for this week’s Tightass Tommo tip. Producer Tommo Well, this one is a little bit niche and might be one that, for our listeners, or it might be one for you to speak to somebody who is in this bracket – so it’s going to be for those who are quite, of the older generation, 70 plus. I don’t know if, you probably won’t remember him but I do, Steve Webb was the pensions minister in the Tory/Lib Dem coalition from 2010 to 2015. And he was actually really quite a competent one, in my humble opinion, compared to what has gone before and after, but we’ll leave it there. But, but when he left when he left office in 2015 he moved into the pension industry, and he’s been giving great insight since, to his credit. And he’s noticed that there is this gap for a lot of married women and their state pensions, so there are a lot of married women about 70 plus, who are not necessarily receiving the amount they should due to some computer glitches not properly recording what they should be entitled to. Now I’m not going to go into the detail here because it is a bit, bit in depth but he is working for a company that’s got a fantastic, particular calculator on this and all the details so, it’s going to be in the show notes. So here goes quite long web address, it is lcp.uk.com/isyourstatepensionbeingunderpaid. And some great stuff there, a calculator to see whether you should be getting some more. And also how to claim it if you should be. So it will be in the show notes, but for some people this could be a, you know, quite a bit of extra pension income that they’re entitled to that for whatever reason has not been given to them so far. So there you go, well done Steve Webb. David Thank you for that. Chris, why don’t you bring us on to today’s main event. Chris We’re gonna have a listen to my chat with Kate Holmes. Kate has her own podcast called the Innovating Advice Podcast, as we’ll here she lives in Las Vegas, which is pretty cool. And she’s an advocate for financial planning and helps advisors in America to deliver financial planning rather than financial advice. In other words, talk about our and stuff, rather than just talk about products. So let’s have a listen to my chat with Kate Holmes. Chris Kate thank you so much for joining us. Kate Holmes Chris, it is awesome to be here. Thank you for having me Chris Where do we find you in America? Kate Holmes I am in Las Vegas, Nevada, Sin City. Chris Are you really? You live in Las Vegas? Kate Holmes I do yes! Chris Wow, do you have lots of clients to talk financial advice to there? Kate Holmes It’s actually a really wonderful place to live. It’s great because, for a lot of reasons, but one of them is – everyone comes to Vegas from all over the world. So, we lived in Denver, for five years, and we hardly saw anybody there. It’s a great city, I love Denver, but being in Vegas peopole come either for holidays or for confrences or on a world tour just to checki it off the list. So, it’s fun to get to see people, but when most people think of Vegas, they just think of The Strip. But in reality that is honestly one single street in what is actually a massive city. We’ve got about 2.3 million people here and surrounded by mountains, its a super athletic city, tons of hiking, biking, its great. Chris So Las Vegas isn’t just about the gambling then? Kate Holmes It’s not just about the gambling. The Strip is pretty much about the gambling, but that also makes it fun to do a little, feel like you are on a mini getaway, even being at home. The Strip is about 15 minutes from us, so all the great shows that come to town, and we’ve got sports here now, all the great concerts and theatre, so, it’s a good variaty. Chris So, I’m going to come back to that in a second, but we should actually introduce you first of all! Kate Holmes Certainly. So I am a professional but I am no longer practicing. I’ve been in the industry or profession, and I do intentionally use two different terms for that, for 15 years now. I spent the first 10 years in an investment advisory firm. I was sort of like a chief operating officer, I saw every single aspect of it. And I knew exactly what we charged clients for it. I knew exactly the service we provided. And a lot of what I specailsed in, just because I loved doing it, was going into companies and talking with employees. And it would be from your rank and file employees to your executives, so you get the entire depth and breadth of people and experiences, and I saw over and over again that it really wasn’t about the investments. It’s not about what interest rates are doing. It’s not about what products people might or might not need. The real heart of it all was actually helping people figure out what they wanted in their life. And I’ve had thousands of these conversations and I pretty quickly realised, that with a lot of people, again, in every socio-economic status, that were hitting their late 50s and early 60s and knew that they wanted to retire but they wern’t retiring to anything. They just knew that they didn’t like their job. Potentially with their grown kids, they no longer liked their spouse. Maybe they didn’t like where they live. So it just became this whole like everyone was quote unquote doing everything right. They checked all the boxes, they had the job for 30 some odd years but they just didn’t seem fulfilled. And that kind of made me realise, like, the industry is so focused on investments and managing your investments. But you talk to all these people who’ve been doing it right for these decades, and they weren’t happy so I just kept seeing this disconnect here, and I realised it really is about first having those conversations around what do people want in their life, and Chris, you know, most people don’t know. Most financial advisors and financial planners don’t know, like it doesn’t matter what your career is, we rarely stop to actually ask ourselves, what makes us happy or to try different things, because you’re not going to know if you don’t try. So that just kind of made me realise it was about those conversations and so to emphasise that I didn’t want to manage assets, and I’ve never sold a financial product. And I really wanted to change the conversation and show people that what financial planning really is and what you know financial wellbeing really is, is about that inner search, first, and then using money as a tool second. Chris Love it. So in those conversations that you have with clients, what, what were the typical things that they concluded that they wanted to use the money for. What was, what sort of examples of the things that you’ve come across. Kate Holmes Yeah, a lot of it was just really interesting conversations with people around things that they haven’t even thought about in a really long time, or, you know, dreams that people have in the back of their heads that they don’t always allow themselves to think. And again, this happens with people whether they were sort of in an hourly position or in an executive role, and sometimes it would be things like, I talked to a woman I was out in rural Iowa at this like manufacturing place, doing these employee meetings, and this woman just made a comment about how she used to really love painting. So we just kind of started talking about that and she said that, you know, she would really love to get back to painting and sell some of her paintings, and I went back and met with her again a year later, and she had done it. And she said it was just from that conversation that she hadn’t even allowed herself in such a long time to acknowledge her love of painting and she had been out at farmer’s markets and art fairs actually selling her paintings, and it was so rewarding to see and that’s not something that you know you need a lot of money for. It’s just tapping into what are those desires that people have. Chris So, if I may pick up on that. That intrigues me because there’s this lady’s saying I always love painting, but there was that extra step to stay and I therefore need to sell them. I wonder you’re, just just got interested, whether that perhaps shows that we are automatically always thinking that there needs to be some validation for it? Kate Holmes I don’t think that’s where she was initially, and that’s why so we kind of, when I met with her again and we talked through the whole journey of the last year when we had that first conversation, it was really just that she hadn’t even acknowledged that she missed painting. And so just saying that out loud. Then she did get back to painting and then I think she started to realise you know there’s a, there’s a sense of validation. I think when you produce anything, you know, especially kind of in an arts world that you can actually sell, and then seeing that as a way of, you know, taking what you love and having some extra income from it. But then, if nothing else we can just pay for the additional painting supplies, you know, even if it’s a break even. It’s that revenue stream that allows you to maybe explore more or use it to go to, you know, a conference to learn more or take another class. Chris Yeah, forgive me, this is a bit of a digression that I find really really interesting because my brother’s photographer, I’ve got several friends who are artists, and I write books, novels, etc. And so the idea that you’ve got to have an audience to validate what you do is one thing, but the idea of having to be able to sell it for money as a second level of validation. I certainly don’t make any money out of my novels, thats for sure, but I know that 500 people read them, and I believe that’s enough actually. You don’t wroite novels for money you know. I just find that subject quite interesting, the relationship between money and creativity you see. Kate Holmes Yeah, well I think it can go both ways I mean I actually got my degree in photography. So I’ve got that artistic background and I realised I didn’t even want to do it commercially or for money and I always explain I kind of broke up with photography and, you know, I think the emotional connection that I had to it was like a relationship and once I graduated I realised we were just not meant to be together anymore so I stopped doing it but I just think about continuing it just, you know, for pleasure and I love travel photography and I’ve always loved travelling around the world but for me I realised that doing travel photography actually detracted from my experience in being present, where I was. Chris Yeah, I think, we’ve seen that all over the world. So, so look, in your view and your experience, what are the main blockages that you’ve seen in people to using wealth to be happier? Kate Holmes I’d say the number one blockage is don’t know what actually being happier looks like. They spend so much time, sort of chasing a lot of the things. I thought about, probably ten years ago, writing a book called ‘Don’t Buy That Car!’ And not for it to be a commercial success, but I just had this interesting like few months, where I kept having all these conversations with people and clients and potential clients, and they had these dreams when we would dive into what did they really want their life to look like. And for a couple of them, they also wanted to buy a brand new car, and I kept trying to figure out how to navigate this conversation because they had these things that they knew would make them happy and great life goals, but they were somehow tied to this idea that they had to buy a brand new car, which, if they went that way meant that they couldn’t actually accomplish their life’s goals. And so I wanted to kind of dive in and do that research. I didn’t end up doing it but whether it’s a car or a house or whatever it is. I was sort of fascinated with the psychology behind it. You know actually looking down and knowing, hey, these are the things that make me happy. But it’s almost like this societal pressure of, but you know I have to own this brand new fancy car because that’s the image I’m trying to give off or that’s the, you know, profession that I’m in or the people that I’m surrounded by and sort of watching that behaviour of, you know, seeing people be pulled that way. Chris Yeah, yeah. So you now spend your time advising financial advice firms on how to give this type of financial planning and advice, what are the main tips you would give to those firms and obviously our audience is the public but, I’m interested in how they would recognise a firm that will help them with their purpose, as opposed to just talk investments to. . . Kate Holmes Well the biggest thing that I do and that I’m passionate about is and the reason actually why I decided to work with other advisors and financial planners instead of going back to working with clients, is because in order to actually have these conversations, financial advisors and financial planners need to first do that work themselves. And you know a lot of people that have worked with an advisor or you know maybe no one in their family know that all over the world, it is still very much about products and investments. And I’ve talked with lots of people to, you know, come into the industry and realise oh, actually, I was gonna be helping people but I have this quota to meet of selling financial products they try to you know fit the problem into this predefined solution of a financial product. And so in order for them to have these more meaningful conversations with clients, advisors need to take a step back and say you know am I on the career path is really making me happy? Am I living the life that makes me happy you know? And I’ve gone through this myself and that’s, you know, I’m not doing it from my hey I’m just speaking it, you know I was living what many people would consider, you know, very ideal American life, my ex and I lived in a beautiful home in suburban Seattle and his two kids lived with us and I was a principal in an investment advisory firm, and none of it felt right to me. And I grappled with that for years because I was like, you know, we’re taught gratitude and be thankful for what you have and I kept doing these practices and it’s like, but there’s something missing in that, you know, it is good to be thankful for what you have, but it’s also really important to acknowledge if what you have is not what you actually want. Kate Holmes The trouble is knowing what you actually want. Kate Holmes Yes, that is the trouble. And sometimes, you know, so for me in that situation and, again, it’s not the first time I’ve been on this rollercoaster a few times, where I haven’t known exactly what I did want. But I knew that what my life was in that time was what I didn’t want. Chris Were the characteristics of that that you could identify and apply, therefore to other things don’t go off into something else that you don’t want? Kate Holmes I think it’s, you know, I did this again just last year, I worked for a global organisation and in many ways it was the absolute perfect job for me I got to travel all over the world and work with amazing people and you know I kept telling myself when I was in these amazing situations like, how lucky am I like, this is absolutely amazing. But ultimately, I wasn’t doing the exact work that I was most passionate about. And again I kept going back to that gratitude thing be thankful for what I have, but it just kept gnawing at me and I spent like a year trying to say, well, what do I want? What does that look like? And I knew that for me and I know you know, not everyone has this ability and, you know, I think it’s from being a financial planner, from my very first job at Target I have always been, you know, so big on spending so much less than I make you know. I’ve never let lifestyle creep come in as I earn more money, so I’ve always been a big saver, which allows me these opportunities of, you know, last year I was like I don’t know what it is, that’s next and so I quit that job with no idea what was next. And I knew that, you know, as long as I stayed there I wasn’t going to have the, you know, mental or emotional capacity to figure it out. If I decided like, I’m taking, at least the rest of 2019 off. And I focused on eating well and exercising and, you know, reading books and just getting back to what’s most important in life, and that that’s the only way that I could have paused and retake in stock of what matters because we all just spend so much time, go go go. And sometimes the very best thing you can do is actually stop and do nothing for a while. Chris Do know what a pertenint time it is to be saying that right at the moment as we’re talking, I don’t know what it’s like where you are, but we’re just emerging over here out of lockdown from COVID and a lot of conversations I have with friends and through work, because I do like to ask you personal questions of people, you know the old ‘How are you’ is taking much deeper resonance over the last few months. And a lot of people are saying, actually, you know what, I quite enjoyed this moment to stop and reflect. Kate Holmes Yeah. Chris And I hope that few people will you know, make some life decisions from that about, what actually does make you happy, etc. So I’ve made proof of your poin, that taking time out and just slowing down, is, every once in a while is good for you. Kate Holmes Well it is and that’s, you know, being a financial adviser during the global financial crisis, you know, and I was on the phone for 14 to 16 hours a day you know with devastating conversations, people losing their house losing our job, you know, lots of really tough stuff. But there were also a lot of really bright lights during that time, and I just love the conversations I had with people that did lose their job, and it was really tough, but then we got into those conversations of, okay, that actually becomes a catalyst for saying, so that’s gone. So now, what do you want? And it’s that forced time of reflection. And I was just reading an article, I sort of a week or two ago, around all of the businesses that were started during the Great Recession, and you know, how great of a time it actually is to start a business, during a recession and that it does force people to take stock. And, you know, again it’s sad, the sort of devastating things that happen, but it really is a lot of opportunity that comes out of it and once everyone can slow down and pause and you know a lot of people have those ideas inside of them, whether it’s a hobby they want to take up or meditation or if it’s a business they want to start or career change, you know, to kind of go, alright, well, now’s the time to redirect and try something new. Chris I’m interested in one aspect of, of what you’re doing and you run this podcast, Innovationg Advice podcast, and it makes a real feature of it being global. So I’m just wondering, as you’ve spoken to different people around the world and many different countries you covered. Have you noticed any different attitudes to money around different parts of the world? Kate Holmes There are yeah and that’s part of what has always made me fascinated by it. I had a woman on recently, who has a very mixed racial background and you know a lot of Asian influence from both of her parents, and we’re talking a lot about being culturally intelligent. And, you know, a lot of it was sort of around at very high level differences between sort of Western and Eastern culture and the conversations that you have and how you approach things and what you talk about. And that’s something that’s always fascinated me because when I did start my business and the fact that I, you know, not managing assets not selling products everybody kept telling me that it would fail. And, you know, I kept explaining that it was so much more important to have these conversations and people kept saying you know nobody’s ready for that, and it’s like but yes they are. I think so many people are they just don’t have the opportunity for that. Yes. And now we’re, you know, seven years later and there are 1000s of advisors, all over the world with nearly identical businesses. And so as I keep going to, you know, talk with people in all these countries. It’s the same conversation over and over again those, you know love advisors saying, hey, I’d like to start a business like that, but I don’t think I would get any clients, I don’t think you know my country or my culture is ready for that. And I think they are, you know I think your listeners might hopefully be listening kind of saying, I could use that conversation, you know, and working with advisor that isn’t just trying to sell a product or just manage my investments, like help me really figure out what do I want my life to look like, and then diving into the money and creating a plan to get there. Chris Amen to that. A very quick story if I may share with you – a few years ago I posted, well actually I asked a friend of mine who has about five and a half thousand followers on Twitter, well known in financial services. I was looking for financial advice but I didn’t have any money to invest. So I said to him, could you post a tweet and say, I’ve got a client he’s willing to pay a fee for financial planning, but he has no assets to invest. He got two people respond! That was all. One of them is the guy who is now my financial advisor and the other one was one of my employees at Ovation Finance the financial planning company, but that was it, nobody’s interested. So actually in the UK, I would say we are still a long way, a long way away from people being able to find somebody who doesn’t need assets to invest. But there is a particular strand, in the UK, which is coming up and I’d be interested, is this happening in the US, of what goes under a number different names, but financial coach is probably the best. Well, money coach, where they help people to work on things like self-limiting beliefs, to understand their relationship with money, fascinating area is that is that big in the US? Kate Holmes Yeah, it is and it’s something that I admit I have gone back and forth with, and I, you know, have some thoughts around, when I did start my business and I started explaining to people what I did, you know, you do your elevator pitch everywhere you go just to practice it. And I kept saying I am a certified financial planner, and the instant reaction was always ‘Oh I already have a planner’, or ‘what stock should I invest in’. So I was like, okay, thats not working. And so I kept trying different ways of explaining it and everyone kept saying back to me, they were like ‘Oh, your like a financial coach?’ And I was like, okay, that makes sense becuase that is a lot of what I was doing and then especially being in the US, theres this organisation called FinCon and its sort of where money and media meet and so in the US there are many massive bloggers and a lot of them call themselves Money Coaches or Financial Coaches. And my challenge with that, a lot of them are, you know, good people and doing good things, but, one, they are not regulated or licensed in any way. And so that was always a challenge for me, because I’ve gone through, i’ve got licenses, I’m a certified financial planner, I’m fully regulated, you know I’ve got all this compliance stuff that I have to follow and you’ve got people over here that don’t have any of that. And that’s alwasy kind of bothered me. And then the other thing that sort of bothers me, I see this conversation regularly on social media, is financial adviser saying ‘oh yeah, I am happy to partner with a financial coach because once clients get to me we dont talk about budgeting or any of that stuff, I assume they’ve already got that sorted. And that’s just missing a huge piece of the pie because everything that financial coaches or money coaches do I absolutly believe financial advisors and financial planners should do. Chris Yeah, yeah, I am just completely agreeing with everything you are saying! And actually, if you if you want advice about the law, you go see a lawyer. Right. Kate Holmes Yep. Chris If you want advice about your business account, you go to an accountant. If you want advice about your personal finance, you can go to a wealth manager, financial advisor, financial planner, financial coach, money coach, etc investment manager, stockbrokers. We don’t have one name to cover it all and I think that’s a real problem for the public. So, let me ask you this question then perhaps we just finished with this thought. If somebody is listening to this podcast they wanted to engage the sort of financial advisor that we’re talking about, who understands wellbeing, you understand, money and purpose and it’s not just about investments. What should they be looking for? Kate Holmes Well, I’ve always recommended and even when I had prospects I would always recommend that they talk to at least three people. And ideally, or three, diverse people, because money is an incredibly intimate thing to be talking about, and you need to make sure that you know in the deepest part of your gut that you really feel good about who you are working with. So, you know a lot of people will ask their friends or family but that can be a good place to start, or it might not be a good place to start because they might be the more traditional product sales people or I call them asset gatherers, people just collecting assets under management. So, you know, Google really is a good place to start and looking for people that talk about either life-centred financial planning or lifestyle planning, and you can see, you can learn a lot from people by what’s on their website. You can see Do they really talk about how they truly care about clients what is their fee model, and I’m always wary and this was one thing I always look at with financial services, no matter what business it is, if it’s – I’m in a clothing store if it’s a website – if you don’t say what your prices are, and I know there are a lot of thoughts aroud this and in financial services, but my mom always taught me if you can’t see the price is too much. And so I’m just a fan of being transparent with what is your pricing What does it look like, even if it’s in a range that way you just understand, and then most advisors will do a free intro call. And like a lot of first impressions you’ll know pretty quickly, whether that’s going to be somebody that might be the right fit so are the first questions around. How much money do you make, how much do you have to invest, how much is currently invested. That’s going to tell you that this isn’t someone doing you know this kind of coaching style well being conversation, versus if you get on a call and somebody genuinely asks you, sort of, deeper open ended questions. A lot of advisors will just blanketly say, what are your goals, you know, and you’re going to say I’m going to retire at 65 and yada yada. Those are the more generic things that people are taught in sales and training so just listen to your gut, that’s the big thing, have those conversations know that you’re going to talk to a few people. So you also don’t feel any pressure to you know give into a sales pitch or sign something now and take your time. Chris That’s a really good, really good tip there, a really good tell if I can bring us back to Las Vegas. Stretching an analogy, a really good tell, how quickly the advisor, you speak to for the first time, how quickly do they ask you how much you have to invest. That’s a real giveaway isn’t it. So I would just like to add, this is by the unfair on you Kate and you are welcome to duck the question, but I’m really curious to know what living in Las Vegas is told you about people’s relationship with money. I mean it is the capital of wasting money in the world isn’t. Kate Holmes Oh it’s endlessly fascinating. So I have thought for years about taking a camera and a microphone, because you get people from all over the world that come here, and I would love to go down on the strip and find people and, you know, ask them how much credit card debt do you have, you know how much money did you come here to spend? And if there’s any way I can find them on both a Thursday, and a Sunday, you know, how much did you come to spend, and then how much did you actually spend? I want to know if people work with a financial advisor or financial planner, what their experience has been like? I am, endlessly fascinated with sort of the intersection of money and happiness of people that come on the strip. And . . . Chris That’s so interesting! Kate Holmes Isn’t it! And like I’ve known people that come, that I know personally are you know in massive amounts of debt, and they come and they go to the most expensive restaurants on the strip and I’m just looking like it’s, it’s so interesting. Chris Did they set themselves a budget. On the first day and on the Sunday did they stick to it? Kate Holmes Absolutely not! Chris Okay, thanks so much for joining us. I really appreciate it. Kate Holmes Thank you, Chris. David Great stuff and I thought she made a very interesting point there, about how you can find a financial advisor who will talk to you about your financial wellbeing and not just try and sell your products. Chris Yeah, absolutely. I think there is a real shift in financial advice in the UK, away from just talking about investments, because let’s be honest when you go to a financial advisor, what you’re doing is you’re saying, look, here’s my investments. Here’s my money. It scares me a bit, I don’t really understand it, could you look after it for me please? And I’ll be over there having fun with my kids and my family or what have you. And what financial advice traditionally does is it brings the client back in again, so that we can show off on technical knowledge and talk about investments and pensions and facts. In The one thing the client doesn’t want to know about! So, if you want to go to a financial advisor who will talk about your life and how your money can make you happier – most advisors will give you a free initial meeting to get to know each other, might be a telephone call or Zoom, what have you, but usually you get it under half an hour or so just to get them to a little bit. In that time, does the advisor the financial planner do they talk about how much money you’ve got to invest, or do they talk about what you’re likely to pay now pretty quickly tell you which sort of advisor, you’re going to be talking to. Producer Tommo Yeah. I listened to that interview and it was, it was so a Neil Bage bias, it was confirmation bias all over the place! So her approach is what we’re all about at Ovation so naturally I’m going to agree with what she said but it’s true. I truly believe that how on earth, can we make a decision about our money, unless we truly know about ourselves and where we’re trying to head. And it’s the cart before the horse otherwise, and it really is; really understand yourself. Make some plans around it, and then start actually moving money around if need be. You know that that’s the point. David I just like to move away from that particular interview because I just thought of a question based on what we’re what we’re hearing from increasingly now with interviews you do Chris. I know you don’t claim that you invented the phrase financial wellbeing, Chris I do. David Alright, you might claim it but we know you didn’t! Chris I claim that I did, but I’m quite happy to admit that I didn’t. David But you certainly wrote a very good book about it. We’ve now done 69 podcasts on the theme, and having listened to that interview there, do you feel that the message that, your message in the book that other people are eccoing is now moving more and more into the financial advisory world? Chris I would say, slowly but surely David. So the Initiative for Financial Wellbeing that I set up the new Institute. That was founded, beginning of this year that Tommo is involved with, we’ve also got loads of other people. It’s got just over 200 members now. And that’s absolutely amazing that’s from a standing start during a global pandemic. And they’re all really good people who are interested in helping their clients be happier. But there’s, what, 28,000 financial advisors in the UK. So yes Producer Tommo Someting in the 20,000’s. Yeah. Yep. Chris So, it is getting through. What you’re also finding that there are some companies who are going ‘this is the future we’ve got to get behind it’ so for example our first, what we call partner member for the IFW is Aegon. And Aegon over the last three months of this year have done a whole host of financial wellbeing stuff they want to promote to their to their customers, and its proper financial wellbeing, they’re getting a lot of content from us we’re working with them, and they’re really genuinely behind it. However, there are also quite a lot of companies that I go for that your well being is a cool thing that’s a slap that on our marketing and carry on doing the same old crap we’ve been doing for years. That’s what we want to call out. That’s where that how do you know that a financial advisor is genuinely delivering financial well being and not just putting on their marketing. That’s why that question was such a key question, David Excellent, well thanks for that and it’s also worth saying that I can’t remember the exact figure, but I know that this podcast is listened to by an awful lot of people, your book I believe has sold an awful lot of copies. It’s also worth mentioning that every, all the proceeds from the sale of The Financial Wellbeing, will go to the Penny Brohn Cancer Research. So, let’s keep up the good work, and we look forward to you joining us again next time when we come up with another one of our podcasts, just the whole notion of financial wellbeing.