The Financial Wellbeing Podcast

Episode 83 – Social Comparison with Neil Bage He’s back, for a third time! Neil Bage has a brilliant discussion around what social comparison means and the effects it can have on our financial wellbeing, both positive and negative. With great tips on how to curate your social media experiences, the most dodgy money saving tip to date in #tightasstommo and the usual banter form the guys – this is an episode not to miss. Welcomes and Introductions Featuring David’s long and distinguished acting career, men about town and this podcast’s sponsor Ovation Finance What is todays podcast all about? Another chat with Neil Bage, this time looking at what social comparison is with a discussion around its harmful effects on mental and financial wellbeing. #tightasstommo Featuring where to find some of the 14 billion old-style legal tender floating around, such as £1 notes and paper money, that has yet to be handed in. (we recommend you give it back to the owner once found!!) Today’s Tip – Helping others who have the hard choice of heating or eating at this time. Click here to visit Trussell Trust and see how you can help with their food banks. The No Shizzle Sherlock Test Today’s tip – Stock investment ‘advice’ from TikTok Come and talk to Ovation for regulated investment advice that will develop your financial plan aligned to your objectives and motivations – email enquiries@ovationfinance.co.uk, call on 0117 942 4333 or click here to visit the Ovation website for more information. Interview with Neil Bage What do we mean by the term ‘social comparison?’ is this linked to social media?Social comparison theory – initially proposed by social psychologist Leon Festinger in 1954 Upwards social comparison the positive of finding inspirationthe negative of not being as good Downwards social comparison the positive of feeling gratitudethe negative of looking down on someone with pity Social comparison and how it is magnified on social media with a baby picture example – what are we not seeing in these ‘cropped’ lives? Social comparison in financial planning, how we need to avoid making decisions based on someone else’s life Famous research question Would you rather: earn £100,000 whilst those around you earn £50,000, orearn £250,000 whilst those around you earn £500,000 The hatred of goals – re-framing goals into objectives Curating your social media experience Where to find ancient examples of social comparison Conclusions from the guys Do you have any financial wellbeing questions you would like us to answer? Or do you have a #tightasstommo money saving tip you would like to share with our listeners? If so, let us know by going to Twitter @Finwellbeing or email – contact@financialwell-being.co.uk If you would like to purchase a copy of The Financial Wellbeing Book please click on this link to visit Penny Brohn UK shop Transcribe of the Podcast Script: (scroll to the bottom to listen to the episode) David Hello everybody and welcome to another one in our long running series of financial wellbeing podcasts. My name is David Lloyd. I’m – who am I? I don’t know who I am really. I’m an actor. I’m a writer, a broadcaster, a podcaster. I say a podcaster. It sounds like I do them all the time. This is the podcast on which I’m a podcaster. And I’m a general man about town. And every so often I get together with my two good buddies, who are going to introduce themselves Tommo who are you? Producer Tommo Tommo David Oh, it’s fair enough. Producer Tommo Hangon I want to do a plug. David All right do a plug, do your plug. Producer Tommo I’m doing my plug. I am Tom Morris of ovation, finance, you happen to back this whole project. And I feel as though it’s my duty to let you all know about that. We’re a lovely ever growing company in Bristol, who are chartered financial planners and help people with their financial plans. So there you go I’ve done my advertising slot. David I think you should like it because I am and I’m getting no extra financial incentive for this at all. This is entirely my own opinion. I am of course a client of Ovation Finance. And they look after me ever so well. And they help to turn my little pennies into large amounts. Perhaps the most important person on the podcast well, he thinks he is and so we’ll go along with it. Chris, who are you? Chris So I’m Chris Budd. I’d like to be a man about town. I think I like that. I like that phrase man about 10. David, you’re obviously extremely well known for your many, many acting roles. And the use of man about town reminds me of Geoffrey Barnard, who was a columnist, I think for one of the newspapers and was a regular feature of the bars around Soho. And if he got to drunk one afternoon to be able to find his copy. The column would just say Jeffrey Bernard is unwell, which I always thought was a lovely expression. So and then we have a podcast and David isn’t here and we say David Lloyd is unwell. Everyone will know what’s happened. To listen, how was your play going? I’m coming to see your play tonight. I’m really looking forward to it. David Yes, it will have been gone by the time this podcast comes out. But yes, I’m currently appearing in a play by Patrick Marber called the Red Lion. It’s sort of Bristol Old Vic. It’s going very well thank you. It’s pretty much sold out now for the rest of the run. And my first time back on stage for 20 years. Chris Are you enjoying it? David Absolutely loving it it’s physically hard work. I mean, let’s not kid ourselves it’s not working down a pitch or anything like that. But but I’m on stage pretty much all the time is a lot to do physically a lot of lines to learn and it’s emotionally quite hard work as well and but absolutely loving it. Thank you very much. But I must just rewind slightly. I was talking earlier about pennies and pounds. Well, I got a massive payment today through from my old agent for there was a series back in the 80s or 90s. I think it probably was called Peak Practice setting events practice in Derbyshire. And I had a small to medium part in that just one episode travelled up to Derbyshire. To record it, it was chucking it down with rain. I spent three days ducking the caravan doing the Guardian crossword with two other actors, I won’t name them because don’t embarrass them, waiting for us to be able to film this thing. And then we filmed it. We filmed the parts. And then I went back home again. And then about nine months later, I got a call from my agent saying, oh, Peak Practice want you to go back and redo the episode that you did. And I thought what’s happened here. And it turned out that these two very well known actors had been cast as major characters in this series. And they filmed three or four episodes of the whole series and then decided that these two were not working out as characters. So they got rid of them and and recast them with somebody else, which meant I then had to go all the way back up to Derbyshire and redo my scene. In the meantime, the entire episode have been rewritten and what originally been a fairly you know, interesting and meaty little part ended up with me running a longer gantry in a factory brandishing a mobile phone going – Mick, Mick, it’s for you. Chris Oh, you still got it David, you still got it David I got paid twice for that I got paid the first time and then I got paid again. But the payment that I got through today was for residuals because that has been obviously shown again I suspect on ITV seven or something like that. 3p it was. And my agent had not taken a deduction from it. Normally they take 15% for repeats and they’ve very kindly waived that. So I had a payment directly into my bank for 3p. So the next time we three meet up beer’s are on me. Producer Tommo I’ve got a cracking investment idea for that David, we’ll have a chat afterwards. So I’ll give you some advice on that 3p. David Right anyway, let’s move on what’s on today’s podcast, Chris? Chris Well, I think that’s it. Thanks for coming, everybody. The David Lloyd story show. We’ve got an interview with an old friend of the podcast today, Neil Bage. David Good old Neal. We’ve had a couple of interviews with him, I think down the years. And of course, he’s given us all those fabulous Bages Biases. And so what’s prompted you to have him on again, Chris? Chris He and I were just chatting, we regularly catch up, Neil and I and we were talking about social comparison and the harmful effect it can have on mental health, not to mention our financial well being and it was so interesting, I said, you know what, we should record this properly. So I booked in for him to me and record a proper chat. So that’s what we’re gonna listen to – Neil and I talking about, mainly Neil, talking about the psychology of social comparison. David Brilliant, look forward to that. But before we do time for the first of our two regular features. This is the big one. Tight Ass Tommo. Before we come on to the master himself, Chris, if you’ve got anything? Chris I do, actually, like I like this one. You know how every few years money gets updated. You and I David will remember the old one pound note. For example, obviously, that’s been moved into the pound coin. Have a guess? When did the pound note turn into a pound coin? What year? David Oh, I’m gonna say, I’m going to say 1996. Producer Tommo You know, I can’t really remember. I think they were a thing when I was just about old enough to know they were a thing. So Chris When were you born Tommo? Producer Tommo 87 Chris You were one. Producer Tommo Oh, I was one. When is it? Okay, so, Chris 1988, yeah Producer Tommo Maybe there was some old ones knocking about? I always remember one pound notes. My knowledge of one pound notes was Only Fools and Horses. Del Boy always I cashed in. That that’s one pound notes were a thing. Okay. David Iused to get a ten shilling note off my grandparents for every birthday, which is like 50p in modern money. And that would last all year. Producer Tommo And this folks is when Bill and Ben the flowerpot men were in their prime David It absolutely was, classic television. Producer Tommo Chris, get the host to get us back on track Chris Back back down memory lane with David Lloyd. So money changes regularly. Fivers and tenners obviously used to be paper, now plastic. So the Bank of England recently announced that there are loads of these old notes and coins that has still not been returned. You can deposit them in your bank account, but you can’t use them in shops. So if they’ve not been returned, where are they? Now I reckon they’re down the backs of sofas and under the seats of cars, right? There are 114 million old five pound notes as 76 million ten pound paper notes still out there. Along with a whole load of old pound coins. There’s a total of 1.4 billion pounds of legal tender out in the country somewhere. So my Tight Ass Tommo tip is this, every time you visit someone else’s house, find that excuse to be alone in their front room, ask them for a glass of water or something and they’re whip off all the seats of the sofa and grab all the loose chains and notes that have got to be down there. Producer Tommo And then, give it to the owner of the house and it will be what a wonderful friend you all rather than taking it and putting your own pocket. Tight Ass Tommo is not condoning stealing money from other people. Chris It’s not stealing if they didn’t know they had it. David My golf bag and my cricket bag are always the places I go look at if I’m desperate. Chris Yes. So when you’re playing cricket, when everybody’s on the field, just put the one in and look to everybody else’s bag. David Yeah, that’s not dodgy at all. Actually, apart from the illegal aspects of it, very good advice there from Chris. I haven’t really got anything apart from as I say perhaps appear in an episode of a popular 1990s television programme and waiting for the 3p to come in. Chris I think we could we could say have a long distinguished acting career. Let’s put it that way. David Alright. I like that. That’s much better. Tommo, master Tommo, the master of meanness, what have you got for us today? Producer Tommo And do you know I? I’m going to be a little bit. I don’t know how to put this. I’m not going to be particularly funny. I’m really sorry, folks. Chris Normal service resumes Producer Tommo I don’t know I I can’t help notice. And I think we all know and I think by the time this episode goes out, we will also be living in it. Inflation is quite high at the moment. And one of the things that’s cost an awful lot of money is our gas and electricity with a lot of hikes. Now, for a great number of people who listen to this, I’m sure they feel some of those increases, but it’s not going to be a difference between them being able to feed their family or not. There are an awful lot of people out there that I think this is going to have a real impact or is already and are quite financially vulnerable. So I’m just thinking those listeners who do have a bit of spare cash are going to be okay by these various rises. Maybe think about putting your hand in your pocket and helping out some organisations that really get to people who are unfortunately having to make a decision between heating and eating. Places like the Trussell Trust, which are all about helping to feed people who are less well off. So I guess my Tight Ass Tommo tip, I mean, it kind of feeds into one of the areas of well being that we talk about is community and helping others and causes that. That means something to us. Yeah, have a look and see if you’ve got a bit of spare cash and try and support those that are really properly feeling the pinch of these price increases. And so yeah, I told you it wasn’t, it was a bit, bit downer, but I don’t I it’s something that I’m I’m feeling particularly worried about, and we’ll be doing something about. So yeah, there you go. David Well said Tommo, not tight ass at all, actually. But I get where you’re coming from. And it’s relevant to this section. Yeah, very important the Trussell Trust, particularly, I do support them, and they do great work around a community. So yep, well done. Those of us who are fortunate enough to have had as Chris describes a long and distinguished acting career, with a large break in the middle in my case, yeah, I think, you know, clearly, it’s going to be tight for everybody over the next months and years. But if we’re in a position to perhaps help out, others less fortunate than ourselves, let’s do it. Right. Okay, let’s move on then to the next of our regular features, No Shizzle Sherlock – in which we listen to the words of wisdom from a financial or investment guru, and wonder whether this is indeed insightful and meaningful advice, or whether it’s a load of old tut. So Chris, watch today’s inspirational investment insight? Chris Well, David, in keeping with what we’re going to be talking about with Neil or listen to with Neil, social media, there’s a lot of investment advice out there on social media, TickTok in particular has become a real Centre for so called investment gurus to be dispensing their free wisdom. David Yeah, I’m reminded of the line. If it’s free, then you are the product. Chris Exactly, exactly. So where the advice is being given, is really trying to get into the use of product that the so called guru gets paid by. David So it’s actually a form of advertising. Chris Totally, they’re totally, they’re trying to encourage you to use a certain app often. Often one that helps you to buy stocks and shares. We’ve talked about Bitcoin in the past and crypto coin, we’re not going to go down that particular avenue, but that is a particularly big one. Producer Tommo Yeah, it’s something we’ve touched on before about some of these tick tock gurus. But I just think it’s really important to remind people of some of the stuff that’s out there, I think of one particular case, or example, yeah, there was it was a little while ago now. And it was on a TickTok account called @Chad&Jenny. They’re a young couple in America, and they make a living from posting stuff about their cool life on TickTok. And in this video, they explained how they supposedly fund this amazing lifestyle. Now, Chad explained that if you want to have a life like theirs – all you need to do is use a certain app, of course, pays them and then buy shares. And he told his followers, that all he does is buy shares, and wait for it to go up a few days later. Sells it and makes profit. Simple as that. David Wow. That’s incredible. I could be rich. Obviously not as simple as that. Is it because the value of investments can go down as well as up, as we all know, even I know that, how can they get away with that? Producer Tommo Because they aren’t regulated by anyone David. I mentioned Ovation, started the podcast, we as a firm are regulated and I as person and a regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. The FCA for sure, and we can’t say things like that, even if we, even if we wanted to. We can’t say things like that. And you’ll notice in this podcast, we try and tread this line when we’re giving some, some ideas or some tips, we have to tread very, a very fine line. Before you start giving advice, you should know everything about somebody if you’re going to give specific investment advice. David So talking of specifics, what is the actual tip that we are assessing here? Chris Well, David, I thought I would present an excellent tip that I found from the American humorist Will Rogers, back in 1929. He had a great investment tip he said, buy stocks that go up. If they don’t go up then don’t buy them. David Well, that is definitely a No Shizzle Sherlock Producer Tommo There’s another saying that comes to mind – free advice is worth every penny you pay for it. To be very careful of investment tips and advice that you see on social media. David Indeed, and bearing in mind that this wonderful podcast to which you are listening is entirely free Producer Tommo It is entirely free. So yeah. David Listen to what we say. Or you might just go well, they’re just rambling off again about their sad old lives, but we’ll leave that one up to you listeners Producer Tommo For my compliance department, we give ideas not advice. Ideas, not advice, folks, suggestions David Possible courses of action Producer Tommo Musings for you to consider. David Right enough of our musings. Let’s now get on to somebody that really knows what he’s talking about Neil Bage. Chris, over to you. Chris Neil Bage is an expert in behavioural science, which is the study of why we do the things we do. He served as chief behavioural officer for a financial planning firm, founder of an award winning behavioural technology business, he’s presented to 1000s of business professionals around the world, on subjects like human evolution, human biology and behavioural psychology. I’d also like, humbly, to consider him a friend, and I think he’s ace. So let’s have a listen to my chat with Neil Bage. Neil, thank you again, for coming on the podcast. How are you? Neil Bage I’m well, I’m really honoured to be repeat guest invited back. I’m very excited. Chris You’re the only guest to be invited back third time. But of course, he also had all your Bages Biases, which were really, really well received. So thank you for your support. David Oh, you are welcome, more than welcome. Chris So this chat with us was was triggered by a presentation you gave to the Initiative of Financial Wellbeing round table tomembers where you gave a little 20 minute presentation on social comparison, it was so powerful. I thought our listeners in general should hear about it. So why don’t you open up by just explaining what we mean by this term social comparison? Neil Bage What a broad opening question that is. So social comparison is kind of, an I hate to use this phrase, but it’s kind of what it says on the tin. It’s how we look around our social networks. I don’t mean digitally, I just mean, our human social networks, and we compare ourselves to other people. But equally, we can compare ourselves to them, or we can compare them to us. And it’s a kind of a well established theory. But actually, if you look at it as from a human perspective, you know, our brains, social cognition network can be traced all the way back to an evolutionary need to protect ourselves to assess threats. Is he building a better cave? Is he a better hunter? So it’s not a new thing? Chris I was gonna say, is this new because of social media? We know it’s been around for millennia. Neil Bage It’s been around since we kind of crawled out of trees and became a bipedal species, meaning we walked around on two legs, which can be traced back to three and a half million years at the earliest, you know, so um, it’s a it’s very much a human trait to compare ourselves to other people. But it wasn’t really until in the 50s, when a guy called Leon Festinger basically came up with what’s known as social comparison theory. And the world started to kind of take more notice of what it is and its impact. Chris So there’s that famous phrase, which I quite often because it’s just so pithy. I think it was Roosevelt that said at first, comparison is the thief of joy. So we’re in that space, I assume I we? Neil Bage We kind of are Yeah, Chris. But I think that that statement kind of looks with social comparison, as if it’s a one sided, kind of human trait. And that’s not strictly true. So if I jump into the work of Leon Festinger and kind of tell you, in a summarised way, what he came up with, you get to see that there’s two sides to the story. So when we compare ourselves in the context of social comparison, there’s two ways we do this, which, if we use the correct terminology, our upwards social comparison, and downwards social comparison. Upwards, means that you are better than me. Okay, so I look at you, and I think Chris is better than me, at whatever, fill in the blank. Chris That’s very wise of you, Neil, but let’s not, Neil Bage Lets not, exactly don’t, you know, make your head bigger than it already is. And downward social comparison is where I feel I look at you, and I think I am better than you at, fill in the blank. Now, if you kind of think of these as two pillars, so upward social comparison, you’re better than me, downward social comparison, I’m better than you. What we tend to do is look at the negative traits, but there are positives as well in those two pillars, if you like. So let’s just stick with one just for a second, if we do the upwards, that where I look at you, and I think you’re better than me. Now, the way that the world talks about that typically is in a negative way. And upwards. social comparison can elicit feelings of envy, or self criticism. So I look at you and think, oh my God, he’s amazing. Why aren’t I like that? I’m rubbish. I haven’t got the skills like he has. And I can start telling myself a whole bunch of stories that are really negative and quite damaging to the to the self. That’s the negative side. But when you look upward social comparison, in the positive, it actually can triggered feelings of inspiration and motivation. So I look at you and think I want to be like Chris, I want to do that. Oh my god. He’s amazing at that. I want to learn how to be like that. So it can motivate me to become a better person. So it’s not only the negative side, Chris Even that though he’s got danger, isn’t it? Because if I compare myself with Paul McCartney, you know, one of my heroes, I think, great, I want to be like Paul. Well, I could never be like Paul McCartney. So actually, that could be setting yourself up for life of disappointment. So even even that can be negative if it doesn’t work out gcant it. Neil Bage No, that’s true, but that’s actually about benchmarking yourself to something realistic, right. And it’s about, it’s about setting your goal, which is the art of smart which is realistic. So does Paul McCartney inspired me to play the guitar. Absolutely. Is he better than they absolutely will ever be like Paul McCartney? Probably not. But does that mean I can’t be motivated, inspired to learn the guitar? No, I can still be inspired and motivated every day to strive to be the best I can at playing the guitar knowing I will never be McCartney or attractant. Or, Chris I’m going to name Joan Armatrading. Because she’s my guitar hero, actually. But I just wanted to stick on this for a second because I can see I absolutely see your point. There’s positives and negatives, but I can see so many more negatives in it. So for example, I share with you something was said to me by a friend of mine, we were 15, friend Dave, great guy, lovely bloke, but at the age of 15. We were sat on the school bus. And he’d recently discovered his first love of music, which was Led Zeppelin. And at the age of 15, I always remember him saying to me, Chris, he said, I don’t think I’ll listen to any more music. I said, Really, Dave? Why is that? He said, Well, what’s the point? Now I’ve heard Led Zeppelin, there’s no point in listening to anything else. At the age of 15. But he kind of tried to play the guitar, but he never really bothered, because he couldn’t be Jimmy Page. So it actually put him off, in a way. Neil Bage Yeah, yeah. And I completely get that if you haven’t got a, a fine tuned understanding of yourself, and your own limitations. There’s also another conversation we should have, at some point maybe, is about the difference between expectations and reality. You know, your friend had stupidly high expectations of himself, which weren’t born out in the reality of him learning the guitar, right. And actually, when we have an imbalance between expectation and reality, it can cause a whole world of pain. Chris So it’s very interesting. But we’re gonna come on to, to apply this to our financial decisions, of course, which is the whole point of this. So I just set that as a context, because anyone listening will, I’m sure hear that idea of expectations, not matching reality, and financial expectations, we can see how that could come together. But I’ve interrupted you enough Neil you carry on. Neil Bage Now. I forgot. I mean, sorry, I was distracted by your story when you were 15, thinking, thinking how amazing your memory is. Unknown Speaker Anyway, we’re gonna talk about the downward aspect downward comparison. Chris I was so dead. So downward comparison, just as a reminder is when I think I’m better than you now in a negative sense that could elicit feelings of not pity and scorn. If you like, you know, I kind of look at you and pity you for not being as good as me. But equally, in a positive, it can elicit feelings of gratitude. And I can be thankful that actually all the work I’ve put in as made me good at something. And yes, I accept, there’ll be people who won’t be as good as me, but I can be, if I’m appreciative of the journey I’ve been on, have gratitude, and it can give me opportunity to teach, because now I’ve become an expert in something and people could do with learning what I’ve learned, so I could pass on my skills in the hope that they will also be upskilled and become better people. So to summarise this point, Chris, you know, the work of Leon Festinger, kind of, when we talk about social comparison, it is often talked about in the negative, but like anything in life, there’s a yin and yang, right, we need to also look, because we’ll find positives in all of these theories that we’re talking about here. You know, know thyself, I can think of negative aspects of really getting to know myself, I can think of any positives, there’s always that yin and yang. And if we go through life, only focusing on one side of the story, ie, mainly the negative, then actually, we we kind of do ourselves a disservice because we fail to spot that there is also goodness in here, too. Chris And so the message from this section really is it’s about how you react to these things, isn’t it? It’s our choice, what we think of ourselves what we think of other people. So let’s, let’s now take that, that and lets just magnified and expanded to being something that happens a bit too, with the advent of social media, something that happens all the time constantly around us, Neil Bage which is comparing ourselves to the Joneses Chris Shoved in our faces, shoved in our faces constantly, isn’t it because of Facebook and social media? And the point you’re making the picture of the baby if you could just explain that picture that you had in that talk? Because I think that that highlighted it absolutely beautifully. Neil Bage Yeah, absolutely. So you know, the world we live in, you know, social comparison is is inevitable, right? It we just talked about how very briefly, I would say, you know, it’s a human trait that goes all the way back kind of, to our roots as a species. So comparison is inevitable, but social media amplifies it more than ever before. And the problem that we kind of have with social media is all you’re ever seeing is somebody else’s highlights reel of their life. You know, it paints a heavily skewed picture of their social universe, they only share their peak experiences, or flattering news, they show as a narrow and distorted part of their reality. And the thing that is most damaging more than anything is it’s a perfectly constructed environment by the person, they construct what we want to see when we want to see it, and how we want to see it. And the picture I showed in the talk was, I had a screen where there’s a multitude of kind of Instagram snapshots on the screen. And the title of the screen, and a phrase I’ve used many times, is living in a cropped existence. And I asked people to look at the pictures. And the question I asked is, What is the picture hiding? Not what is it showing us? But what is it hiding, and there’s a picture I use of a baby crawling on the floor playing with a tractor, everything looks beautiful, and the little catchphrase, #baby, and all of this, you know, #happylife. And you look at the picture, and you’re cute that is. But then what I do is I take away the filter, I take away the crop. And sitting next to the baby crawling on the floor is a picture of a young mother who’s pretty much having a nervous breakdown. And the problem we have is we look at these snapshots, these cropped images, and we assume that everything is rosy in the garden. And sometimes, in fact, many times that is just not the case at all, you know, so we need to kind of stop and consider that a lot of our online activity is comparing ourselves to other people’s curated and edited highlights reel. And that can be really damaging. Chris Yeah. So just as a slight aside, on the odd occasion, I’ve posted I did one just the other day actually working from home, as many of us have been in the last few years. And I’ve been doing it a few years before that. So this cabin I’m currently standing in, I’ve been in this 90% of my working day for about four years now. And I love it. But there are days when you get a little bit stir crazy. And I posted something the other day, which just said, I’m struggling today. I’m not having a good day, I just saw on Twitter, I would really love to just have a meeting with other people. Today’s not a good day. And I had loads of people come to me says so glad you said that. I have days like that, too. So actually, if we do share our struggles a little bit people do react to it. But of course, that’s not your point. That’s not what we tend to do. But I guess that’s just a message out there for our listeners to say, Yeah, please do, reach out when you’re struggling a little bit because everybody else is going through the same thing. But listen, absolutely. Let’s Let’s now turn our attention then to how might this lead to poor financial decisions? This only seeing other people’s dreams? Say this, the highlights reel, as you call it? How could this lead us to making bad financial decisions? Neil Bage Well, I mean, the first area that it affects is when we are goal planning with clients, you know, when we say to people, okay, look, we’re going to sit down, we’re going to talk about your financial plan. And what I want to, what we would like to explore are your dreams, your aspirations, your goals, what you want, what you want to do when you retire, whatever that word means. And you know, and what people do is, they typically do one or two things, they look back into their memory at events and experiences that they loved, and they carry them forward into the future. You know, one of the things I’ve often said is that humans are the only species who can kind of affect our temporal timeline by, we can do time travel, in essence. Within a split second, I can ask you, Chris, to go back in time – memory, and I can ask you to go forward into the future – imagination. And we are the only species that can do this on the flip of a coin, right, I we can go back to when we were 15. Talk to our friend about Led Zeppelin. And we can think about our future sitting on a beach in Jamaica with a guitar and a bottle of wine playing guitar on a beach with your wife, right? Chris Is that you promise me? Is that going to be my future? Neil Bage I don’t know. I don’t know him. No, I think that’s your dream. I just kind of think it’s, it might be knowing you. Chris It’s close. Neil Bage Maybe a bottle of rum, I don’t know. But what we do so we do these two things we use our memory to to give us a framework. So what we want to do in the future, or we look to other people for inspiration, and we look at what other people are doing and what they’ve done. And we go oh that looks amazing. I want to do that without appreciating or stopping to think I’m seeing A cropped existence. I’m seeing what they want me to see. And therefore can I take that on face value? So it? So there flip that into the question you asked me? If I’m thinking about big important financial decisions, and I’ve never made a decision like this in the past. Yes, I can take my financial planners advice. Yes, of course I can. That’s why I’m there. But I would also just naturally look to other people and what they’ve done, I’d speak to my friends, have you ever have you ever done any retirement planning? Have you ever invested in stocks and shares, etc, etc. So it’s a natural human inclination to kind of draw wisdom from the crowd, our crowd in this example being our closest friends. And and what we are doing is we are going through a variation of social comparison, to figure out what others have done to give us a framework to make a financial decision for ourselves. And unless we, unless we dig properly, unless we peel the onion properly, and get to the heart of why they did what they did, then all we’re doing is we’re making a decision for ourselves that’s based on somebody else’s life. And that is just, in my humble opinion, a recipe for disaster further down down the line. Chris Theres two particular examples that come to mind. You mention the investment piece, especially people who manage their own stocks and shares and invsetments. Vary, very rarely hear somebody like that tell you about the share that they brought that went down 30% the next day. You only ever hear when they invested in something and it was the most fantastic thing, Bitcoin being the most obvious example to that. You dont hear of the money lost, you only hear of the money won, dont you. Neil Bage And that’s because, going back to what I said, probably going 5 minutes back, social media, everybodies highlights reel all they do is share peak experiences and flattering news, they never say – just invested all my money in Bitcoin and lost the lot, damit. They dont do that. They go, I just put all my money in Bitcoin and made a lot of money. And thats a lot, thats social comparison, sitting around that is they dont want to come accross embaresed or looking stupid or looking ill-informed. Thye’d rather just not tell anybody their suffering rather than go, I’ve done this, what do you think I did wrong, is there anything I can do to make myself better in the future etc etc. There’s one example Chris if I can, about financial decisions and how social comparison has an absolute cast iron grip on us when we are trying to navigate the money world if you like. I think that’s your dream, I just kind of think is what it might be knowing you’re making a bottle of rum, I don’t know. But what we do is we peel the onion properly, and get to the heart to make myself better in the future, etc, etc. Just this one example of just as I can about financial decisions, and how social comparison has a absolute kind of cast iron grip on us when we’re when we’re trying to navigate the money. Well, if you like, There’s a very famous research question. And I’ve asked this question so many times, and friends of mine in behavioural psychology have asked this question so many times. Chris Is it what we can do live? Neil Bage we could do a live gun last weekend? Okay, so this has been you and all of your all of our listeners. And you’ve got to answer the question, honestly. Right you can’t pretend you whatever your gut tells you just go with it and we can dissect the answer in a second. Chris You know me well enough by now I have no choice but to answer everything, whether I intened to or not. Neil Bage I know that. So here’s the question. And you’ve only one or two choices. Okay? Would you rather earn £100,000 a year, in a community where the average salary is £50,000? Or £250,000 a year, in a community where the average salary is half a million. Chris Right? So, Neil Bage Yes, yes, there’s, there’s all sorts of kind of micro/macro issues that you could think about, your cost of living, blah, blah, blah. But I want you to answer this question just on the face value. Without being too clever about it. Chris Yeah, so listeners, so £100,000 salary for me, all my friends want 50 or £250,000 salary from me, but everybody else is on 500. I mean, on the face of that my gut feeling would be to take that £100,000 because if I’m living in an area where isn’t on £50,000, there’ll be more stuff, then we’re gonna have more earnings and other people. So that will be my gut feeling. Neil Bage Yeah, answered like a financial planner, by the way. Because most financial planners go oh, well, if it is £50,000, that means therefore, that the socio demographic environment? No, no, no, no, just look at the numbers and just tell me what your gut is. And what most people’s gut reaction to this question is, is there rather than more than other people? Chris Yeah, so I’ve taken a look at salary, so that I’ll earn more than other people haven’t I? Chris I walked straight into your trap Bage. Neil Bage Another podcast feature, Bages Traps. Chris A couple of things, I want to just finish off we’ll get into before we finish one of them you keep me up nicely, because you know how much I don’t like the idea of goals. So I, I really hate the word goals because they’re finite. And one of the things that that put me in mind of it, the beginning of lockdown last year, so March/April time 2020. I saw a few tweets from people who and it was along the lines of in the people like plagues Isaac Newton discovered gravity, what are you going to do in lockdown? I remember thinking there’s something wrong with that, but I can’t quite put my finger on it. I think we have. Neil Bage Yeah, and again, yeah. I mean, it’s just people, comparing other people to themselves, other people or other people to how everybody else should behave and how everybody else should think and it’s just, it’s just a recipe for disaster. You know, I think goals is an interesting word, Chris, and my good friend, Brian Portnoy, I know you talk to Brian before, he does a lot of talks around anti goals, talking how financial planners should talk to their clients about what they don’t want. We all talk about what they want, would never know what they don’t want. And actually, both of those conversations are equally as important as each other. And one of the things that by doing that we can we allow a client to talk about their dreams and their aspirations based on things that they’ve learned but didn’t work out quite as well as they would have hoped. Whereas just talking about the positive side of your life, kind of again paints a bit of a highlight reel for the direction that people want to head. So we just need to be careful with goals. I know you use a phrase that I’ve stolen many times, you know, goals are finite when you get there, then what? I’ve always, always remembered you saying that it is such a powerful statement because it’s true. Whereas our dreams, and our aspirations of life ever changing, ever moving, you know, they bolt with us as we age. And as we experience the world, were saying, I want to retire when I’m 61. And I want to live in this. When you’re 61, and you’re living there, and you go, Well, what do you do now? Got another 30 guys left mate? Well, now what you’re going to do? Just, I mean, we always dream, we’re always dreaming. And we’re always aspiring to be better and do great things. And that’s what we should focus on, because they’re the things that are so emotionally driven. But they’re the things that make us get out of bed in the morning. So as long as the I’ll wrap up by saying as long as they are our dreams, our aspirations, and they aren’t being fueled by somebody else’s highlight reel. Yeah, Chris There’s a lot of stuff you see from motivational speakers or Tony Robbins types of this world, which go on about goals and achieving this and having targets and goals. I find it exhausting sometimes I just want to be in a get up for breakfast to them to you know, Neil Bage It is knackering, right yeah, you’re gonna have a goal today to walk across hot coals and they got brilliant then what. And you’re gonna have sore feet for three weeks. You know, come on. Chris The know myself breaking news. That’s what we’ve always talked about within the financial wellbeing book, in the podcast and also one of the five pillars of financial well being is a clear path to identifiable objectives, which regularly listen to this podcast, we’ll know when we drill down on that we mean intrinsic motivations. And that means what’s true to you, not what’s input into you by comparisons from social media. So I wanted to end with how we can overcome these social comparisons to make better financial decisions. But maybe I think we maybe we’ve just been there have we just we just inadvertently stumbled upon the answer. Neil Bage I think we have, I think we have it’s a really is, Chris, a process of sitting down and going right, look. So let me give you my example, right? It’s me and Sandy, my wife and our little dog, Archie. Because the three of us that’s our little family unit. And when we make decisions, what we do, and this is in, I’m in my mid 40s, and it’s taken me a while to figure this out. If I’m being honest, I studied human behaviour for a long, long time. And it’s only recently I guess, I’ve landed on this. It’s sitting down and going, You know what, I don’t care anymore what anybody else is doing. I don’t care what anybody else is thinking. Me and Sandy, and our little dog, Archie, that is my world. Everything that I hold dear. Everything that I get up and I live my life for is in that little tiny unit. So therefore every decision I make, has to exclusively benefit that unit. And if it doesn’t, we kind of don’t do it. And what I stopped using social media, I’m on Twitter, and I’m on LinkedIn. I’ve never ever been on Facebook, I hate social media and that passion. I think it’s, I think, at best, it’s toxic. And, you know, it’s, I don’t spend my time there. But I, I could quite easily imagine if I did, I would be suckered into what everybody else is doing and think that that’s what I want. So I’ve learned to immunise myself from the outside world to a degree of when I’m making a decision about my happiness, about how I can be content, I think about me Sunday and Archie and make decisions exclusively based on that. And hopefully the outcomes of my decisions lead me to more content life. Chris That is wonderful advice Neil, absolutely wonderful advice. My social media places Twitter, I don’t do Facebook either. But on Twitter, the important thing is to make sure you curate your Twitter experience. So I do it in two ways. One, there are certain people who are very negative and so I muted them. And suddenly my life was already better. But the other thing I ran the other day, this is just this just goes to show that even though a smarty pants, who know the theory was true to ourselves, I went on Twitter the other day, not feeling my best in the morning. And I saw that a couple of people were doing a conference, we’re speaking at a conference and I started thinking, Why was I invited to speak to that conference, I’d be really good speaking at that conference. And then I felt really in a fun trick at the life until I suddenly hit myself over the head with what you’re talking about. You’re talking other conferences, just because some of these talking you certainly realised that I just wanted straight back into the trap again. It’s Neil Bage So easy. It’s so so easy to fall into the trap and, and I have to be really careful, consciously careful when I’m on Twitter, of not just kind of – you’re like me, right, you look at something and you go, Oh, I’ve got to reply to that. And you hit Reply to tweets, and you type something, and then you read it, and you just delete it. Because you go, actually, I don’t want to do this. I don’t I don’t want to engage in this conversation because it’s negative, damaging. I guess I have an opinion. But you know what, I’m going to keep that opinion to myself, because that’s all it is. It’s an opinion. And all it’s going to do is pour fuel on the fire. And you know what? excuse I was, excuse all your listeners want to say, but I can’t be arsed. I really can’t. It’s just it’s just kind of drains you. Chris But that’s that’s the thing. It’s not so much that you cant be arsed, you know that it will have a negative impact on your energy levels. That’s the thing. So let’s just wrap this up then with with with bringing this together. So you’ve you’ve explained where social comparison comes from, how it can lead to poor financial decisions. There’s nothing wrong with making comparisons per se as long as you’re very much aware of the negative impact it can have on you. So a reasonable way to summerise it? Neil Bage That’s a absolute perfect, reasonable way to summarise it. And if you want to read more about social comparison, you get to understand how ancient it is. There’s two places you can look the book of Genesis, in the Bible. Genesis 37 is the story of Joseph and his amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat, best example of envy and social comparison. And, of course, Shakespeare’s Othello is peppered with social comparison and the Iago/Othello conversation where the phrase the green eyed monster of envy came in is all of it all wrapped up into this, to this kind of theory that we shouldn’t be looking to others for, as a benchmark for our happiness, we are utterly, absolutely in control of that ourselves. Chris So now that you’ve just finished this with two fantastic, intellectual, cultural comparisons, we’ll leave everybody on that no, because there will be thinking that we’re really clever people. So let’s leave them comparing us to Neil, really appreciate it. Neil Bage You’re welcome to take David Fascinating and insightful stuff from the power of you as ever top I’d say about that? Producer Tommo Other than I just find everything that Neil says absolutely fascinating. I found it quite interesting. This idea that comparison is the thief of joy. But only if you look at it in a certain way. There is a way in which you can use comparison in a positive way. And I think that’s, that was quite an insightful comment, because we only ever look at the negative connotations. But I must admit, I’m not a million miles away from Neil’s opinions of some social media apps, that’s for sure Chris The danger can be a concern. A lot of people don’t use social media at all anymore. And I think, and I made the point in the interview that social media is fantastic, you do need to curate it. You don’t want to just go on Facebook and see everybody telling you how wonderful their lives are because as Neil says it is a cropped existence. But I work hard at my Twitter experience to make sure I get rid of this disagreement, which is I love those. It’s the unpleasant people that I don’t want to have in my life. So once I worked on that, it’s great. So I don’t think not having social media is necessarily a great answer, if it’s not for you, it’s not for you. But I get loads of ideas from it. So I personally I love it. But yeah, curating your life really, isn’t it? Producer Tommo Well, that’s a really interesting point. So so back to say something about the curating if you think about the way we live our lives, ignoring social media, so we think about the friends we built up over the years, the fan, certainly family, definitely disagree with family, you’re stuck with them for life. But it’s okay to disagree with friends who will have different opinions. I found over the years, I don’t really have the mystical folks who dragged me down and why have them in your social media lives. I think it’s really important to have people who don’t share all of the opinions that you have. I think it’s quite good to be challenged as a person sometimes. But yeah, definitely the Debbie downers. Yeah. With you all the way there. David Yeah, very true. Indeed. Very true. I remember when, when I first started off on Twitter around about the same time as you I think, Chris, it was generally a sort of fun and joyous place. And then it gradually became more and more poisonous. And so like you, I started to curate quite carefully what my own Twitter experience was going to be. And anybody that that came on there just spreading harm and hurtfulness and hate, I just don’t engage with it. And I think if you can be selective about what you do, then I think there is a place where Chris You literally choose who you follow. You know, that’s how it works. Producer Tommo That’s what you do in life. Yeah, this is what you do in life. You don’t hang around with people who have that, who do that. Chris Present company excluded? Producer Tommo This is unfortunately, a forced endeavour, David I once voiced an opinion on the moral integrity of the current prime minister, or at least the current prime minister at the time of this recording, only to be met by somebody on Twitter who told me he was the best Prime Minister we’d ever had. So I stopped following that one. Producer Tommo I did say its healthy to have people who disagree! David Anyway, enough of that we’re gonna have danger of straying into the world of politics, which is not what this podcast is all about. Thank you very much, Chris, for that really insightful Interview with Neil, thanks to your channel as well as ever for producing the programme for the great contributions that you’ve made. And thanks to you all at home for listening and I hope you’ll join us again the next time we do another one of these financial wellbeing podcasts.

Episode 82 – What Determines Your Self-Worth? Where does self-worth come from and how can we link this to our financial plan? Whilst The Financial Wellbeing Podcast is not about psychology, the guys are exploring the relationship between self-worth and your money with personal examples and some great advice from the Dalai Lama. A poignant episode for you to consider how you plan your financial wellbeing. Welcomes & Introductions Featuring a wellbeing tip from Chris Budd – play music with your kids If you would like to have a chat with Ovation about wellbeing, click here to visit the website email enquiries@ovationfinance.co.uk or call on 0117 942 4333 Click here for more information about the IFW What is todays podcast all about? Taking a look at what is meant by self-worth and the relationship it has with our finances and net worth. Link to Episode 60 Interview with The Financial Healer, Mark Bristow The No Shizzle Sherlock Test Every episode they guys will take a look at a questionable financial tip – will it be insightful and meaningful advice, or from the land of the bleeding obvious! Given a 10% chance of a 100x pay off. You should take that bet every time – Jeff Bezos Often the advice you hear from a wealthy investor ignores the circumstances of the person making the investment, so Know thyself and be aware #TightAssTommo Featuring Producer Tommo’s reputation and a tip from Dan Tailor with his brilliant way of making the most of clubbing when on holiday Editor Tammy’s tip – scoop out those last bits of cosmetics – works for wine too! Todays Topic – How does self-worth link to your money and finances? If self-worth comes from others, it can be taken awayThe feeling of being valued, just for being youBuilding confidence and grow your belief in yourselfGive others the chance to succeed to increase their self worthPride, internal/external/blurred, especially when it comes to family Chris Budd’s dad and his pride: Was external, through stuff and was lost when he went bankrupt David’s outward bound experience: despite having all the kit fellow guy did not have the belief he could get through the experience Producer Tommo’s conversations: Far more exciting to say you have 4 properties rather than the same money in a pension pot! What can bring you wellbeing? Episode 42 & Episode 46 with Tim KasserMoney as the objective contradicts wellbeingMoney brings short term wellbeing that can be taken away So how do we find internal self-worth? Compassion, kindness to others and being warm heartedDalai Lama When people reach financial independence they – travelfind they have too muchspend money to help others Work our how much you need now so you can help others sooner Conclusions from the guys Looking at our self worth and the way it makes us feel is really going to effect the judgements we make about how we plan for our future and financial wellbeing If you would like to purchase a copy of The Financial Wellbeing Book please click on this link to visit Penny Brohn UK shop If you would like to get in touch with Ovation, click here to visit the website email enquiries@ovationfinance.co.uk or call on 0117 942 4333 Do you have any financial wellbeing questions you would like us to answer? Or do you have a #tightasstommo money saving tip you would like to share with our listeners? If so, let us know by going to Twitter @Finwellbeing or email – contact@financialwell-being.co.uk Transcribe of the Podcast Script: (scroll to the bottom to listen to the episode) David 0:15 Hello everybody and welcome to another one in our long running series of financial wellbeing podcasts. My name is David Lloyd. I’m the sap that doesn’t really know anything about money and asks all the naive questions, but fortunately, I have two people with me here today who know all of the answers. The first one is the guy that wrote the financial wellbeing book on which this series of podcasts is based, Chris Budd who are you? Chris 0:38 You just said who I am so I guess thats it really? What else am I? Do you know what, I think this week I’ll say I’m a musician. I always remember somebody calling me musician, what are you talking about? Well you play guitar. Yeah. Then you’re a musician! But I had one of my best wellbeing moments of my life. Because a band called BLT, a covers band locally. I think probably David, you’ve seen them even, seen them at my wife’s birthday. They were short a drummer and my son’s a really really good drummer. So they asked him if he would drum. But the gig was in Salcombe which about two and a half hour drive away. So they realised to get him to drum, they were going to need to ask me to play guitar as well. So they did and so we had a little adventure going down to the West Country, further down to the West Country playing a gig, with my son on drums, me on guitar and the rest of the band and it was just the most fun. It was brilliant. So yeah, that’s a wellbeing tip for me. Do things like music with your kids? Absolutely brilliant. Chris 1:01 Ah that’s lovely. Tom Morris. I think your kids are a little bit young to be drumming in bands, aren’t they? Producer Tommo 1:40 Unless its maracas or shakers that they just sort of move around randomly,move around and bang drums and pans and pots and all that sort of things. Yeah not quite at that level. But but still plenty of of joy, but just in different ways. I’m going to do my introduction that I do, which is my shameless plug of the organisations that I want to promote if that’s alright with you David. David 2:00 Go ahead. Producer Tommo 2:01 Well, there’s Ovation Finance. I’m the director and financial planner over there. Come and have a chat if you want to talk about more of the things that that we talked about in this podcast and maybe even your own financial planning needs. Also Initiative for Financial Wellbeing is something myself and Chris are directors at and if you’re in the financial services profession, go check it out. Got great membership, lots of discussions around the idea of financial wellbeing and how we implement it. It’s been had, so yeah, go and check those two organisations out. David 2:40 Excellent. Thanks very much. Chris. What are we talking about today? Chris 2:43 Today, David, we are going to look at what is meant by self worth, and what might be the relationship between our self worth and ounet worth. David 2:53 I have heard this expression before have I not? Producer Tommo 2:56 You have David, it was an expression we first heard from Mark Bristow, a money coach, who we heard Chris interview in podcast episode 60. David 3:06 Yes, he’s the he’s the guy who told that amazing story about how being lost in a department store led to him having a bad relationship with money. Is that right? Chris 3:16 That’s the one that’s one. Although I should just stress being lost in a department store when he was a small child not recently. David 3:23 Not like Father Ted? Chris 3:27 Thats a blast in the past. I also came across this concept of internal and external self worth and a book I read recently that I want to tell you about so I thought it’d be interesting to explore this idea of self worth and little David 3:38 I look forward to this joint exploration but before we do that, the first of our two regular features. The first one being No Shizzle Sherlock in which we consider words of wisdom from a financial or investment guru and wonder whether this is indeed insightful and meaningful advice, or whether it’s coming from the land of the bleep the obvious. So Chris, what’s today’s motivational phrase that you have for us today? Chris 4:04 This guy, I’m looking forward to the different ways you’re gonna say that every episode David. This comes from the world’s richest man, at the time of writing he was anyway. So we better tread carefully because it’s Jeff Bezos and he’s done all right, from himself hasnt he? So who are we to criticise. His investment tip is – given a 10% chance of a 100 times pay off. You should take that bet every time. David 4:34 Okay, so 10% Chance 100% Or I’m not as you know, the most mathematically minded person I think I need a moment to think about that one. So Tommo you’re my financial advisor helped me out here. Producer Tommo 4:47 Now I try my best, scratch my head a little bit. Well, first of all, as usual, with these investments, it depends on your situation. Let’s say you have £1000 to invest. And that’s the only spare money you have. You put the whole £1000 into a high risk investment, where there is a 90% chance you will lose your money. Then no, that’s terrible advice. If however, like Jeff, you have loads of money and can make a series of investments that’s different. So let’s say you have £10,000 and you want to make 10 investments of £1000, there’s a 10% chance of success or nine of your investments will fail. One will increase by 100 times two will go up go up to £100,000. So, yeah, be very careful. Make sure you’ve got some money to David 5:47 Not be quite as rich as Jeff Bezos. I’m not sure I like those odds if I’m honest. So what is that tenth investment doesn’t work either? Producer Tommo 5:57 Well exactly. It’s it doesn’t work. Then you’re left with nothing. So therefore you need to be able to afford to lose everything, or everything you’ve invested, which Jeff Bezos can but yeah, yeah. David 6:13 Yeah. So it’s not so much of a No Shizzle Sherlock. It’s more about well, that’s fine. If you could afford to lose everything. Producer Tommo 6:19 Well, exactly. Like so much of the advice you hear from wealthy investors ignores the circumstances and the person making the investment. There is no doubt the more you diversify your investment, you’re going to have winners and losers. Certainly, I think the type of investing he’s talking about very speculative investing, where it can really blow up well, but it’s in diversification and being able to afford to see that money drop in value or in that high risk environment. Go completely. David 6:49 Well, we talked a lot on this podcast about Know Thyself, this is a really great example of that. Be aware of what it is you’re taking on. Chris 6:57 And I’m just gonna just gonna wade in slightly as well, which I’m going to be honest with you that sort of investment tip from someone like this from Bezos really annoys me because he has made obviously stupid amounts of money. There’s hundreds of 1000s if not millions of people that took the same level of risk that he did that didn’t make that lots of money. So well done Jeff, good on you. But don’t go telling everybody how to do what you do. If you got a bit lucky, work hard, etc. That’s not a good tip for me. David 7:24 Excellent. Okay, that’s what that one too bad. Let’s move on to the next one. #TightAssTommo. Every so often, I need to remind you the providence of this particular feature, it all started when Tom and a former colleague Ian and Chris all went out to lunch Tommo said don’t worry, guys, this one’s on me I’ll pay and steered them towards a particular item on the menu. As it turned out, he had a voucher for that, which meant he got it for free. Never been any question whatsoever, that this wasn’t a great lunch. But it also is a prime example of why this man is somebody who needs to be listened to when it comes to being. But before we come on to him, Chris, what have you got for us? Chris 8:05 Well, the thing about this #tightasstommo is that Tommo has a reputation far and wide for our industry. And if you’re going to confrences, and I’ve seen it happen, you say Hi, I’m Tom Morris. Oh, your #tightasstommo, Its great I love it. And so some of our friends are happy to give us tips whenever they see when they see us a one is from a financial financial advisor called Dan Taylor. And he says that he and a mate used to go to Ibiza every year, which obviously to go clubbing. Before going they would email all the top clubs saying they were journalists reviewing the summer club scene they will include a link to that website, which they just kind of made up. Always was just a page with an under maintenance message. It would usually be enough to get them into all the club free of charge and on the guest list as well. David 8:55 That is absolute genius. Producer Tommo 8:59 I must confess I know Dan and I had heard this story before and it gets me every time. I just have an image that was like Kevin and Perry go large. So I got a great tip. David 9:14 Tommo can you top that? Producer Tommo 9:18 Okay, no, I this one. This one is from the real producer the superstar behind the scenes. Tammy. She she’s she’s came up with a few but I’m gonna pick one. I’m gonna pick one for the ladies today. Or men or you know, if you wear makeup its fine. To always cut off the top of cosmetic tubes. When you think you’re at the end of the product. There will be a tonne less. You can still scoop out. David 9:49 Well, I just like to amplify on that. I think that’s great and the same applies for wine boxes. If you box in a wide box, and you’re pressing the top of the tap, and then you realise it’s all gone. Cut cut the corner of the wire box is always another glass of wine in there. Producer Tommo 10:06 Is that like you know when you take the crisp packet at the end to get all the crumbs out? And this can work to have so many – toothpaste toothpaste is really struggling to get the last bit cut it open lots of scraped your your toothbrush into the toothpaste opened up tube Yeah, there you go. Tammy great work Chris 10:25 We must have on at some point in time squeezed together the last bits of soap to make one new bar David 10:32 And indeed there’s another tip that I can’t even share with you on this podcast of our paths so you’ve got afterwards Chris 10:38 Oh no what I know now David 10:40 That I used that I used to do as a younger man no it’s illegal. So moving swiftly on Chris, why don’t you introduce our subject for today? Chris 10:51 Okay, so I’d like to have a chat about self worth. David 10:56 Okay, now on the face of it that doesn’t sound like it’s especially linked with money does self worth come from things like believing in yourself and getting appreciation from other people? Chris 11:07 Well, that’s kind of the point. They are of course, indeed sources of self worth. But if your sense of self worth comes mainly from others then it can be taken away. Now, I got this from the most amazing book I’ve ever read. There’s two books I would say have changed. My life. One is called The Long Walk by Slavoumir Rawicz, which I read in my 20s and led me to leave a particularly depressing job and start my own business. The other one I’ve just read recently, which is by the Dalai Lama and Archbishop Desmond Tutu, and it’s kind of not quite transcript but it’s all about the conversation that the two of them had for a week about what is joy called The Book of Joy. Absolutely fantastic and just completely knocked me for six in a number of different ways. One of the things the Dalai Lama talks about in that book is that self worth comes from internal and external sources. So an example of an internal source of self worth might be how well we do things that we deemed to be valuable. It comes from having a role to play in life, one that has a connection to others and is again aligned with your own values. It’s about being valued feeling valued. Just for being you David 12:17 Great, so its about building confidence in a way, isn’t it. Now I’m thinking of my time cricket coaching, which I still do a bit of, but not so much these days. You see kids who come along to their first practice session, unconfident aren’t sure of themselves, perhaps standing to the side of it, you get the chance to do something like just catch a ball, whatever. And they realise that actually, they can do something they didn’t know that they can do, you can almost see them grow in stature and start to get more confident in their interaction with their mates and actually just to develop a little bit further. An amazing thing happened to me last week. I part of a WhatsApp group of Bristol City football supporters. And all of a sudden, this guy just suddenly popped up. David Lloyd, you’re a leg. And I went, Oh, what’s this all about? Now, back in the early 1990s, the previous club that I used to belong to I used to do some coaching with their kids there. And he said, I was fielding one day at near the boundary, and you said now you’re setting in the wrong place. You need to move 20 yards further in. And so I did and the very next ball, the guy hit the ball to me and I caught it. My teammates thought I was fantastic. And he never forgotten that, I didn’t remember it at all. But obviously, there was something about the advice that I gave him that it still meant an awful lot to him that it also really increased his self worth and his belief in himself. So so that is a really, really good little thing. Chris 13:42 What a lovely example and it’s a really important aspect of self worth, David making sure that you give people the chance to succeed. So their self worth can increase. I think it’s worth us thinking about all different areas of life, particularly to have children. It’s very easy to tell them what not to do. But it’s also really important to say well done when they’ve done something good. I remember one tip some to give about little kids, when they’re making a lot of mess in the bathroom. Rather than saying, Stop making a mess. You say, How could you keep the water in the bath and it’s just a different way of putting the same thing that is more likely to give them a chance to succeed to do something well, rather than a chance to fail. So it’s a great tip for how to increase your sense of self worth and others for giving them opportunities to succeed. I’m sure we all know people who have low self esteem and yet we think that they’re awesome. So I’d like to quote a lyric from the most fabulous local band except they are not local, international now but it came from Bristol punk band called Idols who are very straight talking on this particular point and there’s a fantastic line from verse on one of their songs, which is “If someone talked to you the way that you do to you, I’d put their teeth through, love yourself. David 15:00 Loving yourself is very important. We are not of course advocating violence. We’re not suggesting that you put anybody to teeth through particularly your own. But I think that’s very, very, very true. That that that feeling of self worth and and how it makes us feel and I’m looking forward very much as to how you’re going to take that essentially strong psychological point. And relate it to money, Chris? Chris 15:24 Yeah, it’s not a psychology podcast. We’re not putting ourselves out as counsellors. But what really got me onto this was this, this book, and particularly a couple of passages from the Dalai Lama, because we’re talking about internal sources of self worth. But this isn’t the only source of self worth. It also comes from external sources. It could be applause or recognition, or status, or wealth. It can be from your job and social media connections physical appearance passing exams, how fast you ride a bike how many friends you have, these are all external sources of self worth. David 15:58 Yeah, so I get that they’re all examples of external sources, but but it would give one a feeling of pride. I guess to pass an exam. It feels good to wear nice clothes, drive a nice car. Chris 16:09 It does but that’s just an example of the car. The question is whether the pride comes from within from just enjoying the nice car for its own sake, or from without because you like people seeing you in that car. And this is really important because this is a key point Dalai Lama makes because internal sources of pride can’t be taken away external sources however, can. Producer Tommo 16:35 I’m just trying to process this because it one area of pride. I was having a conversation recently with some friends for me. Certainly kicked it when I became a father is this ability to provide for my family, and what we have in the security, etc. And I get a lot of pride from that. And is that internal or external. Is it blurred? Because I would say that that’s what drives a lot of what I do and I think a lot of parents would probably appreciate the comment I’m making. Chris 17:05 I would say it’s very much internal. It can’t be taken away, can it somebody can’t come along and take it away from you. That stuff’s pride that you have. So yes, very much. That’s an internal source of pride. Absolutely. I want to illustrate that by way of a story about my father. I just was gonna go halfway through not at the beginning. So i’d like to illustrate this point by way of a story about my father. Now my dad came from very humble beginnings. His father was a road sweeper and he did pretty well in life. And he made a bit of money. Had a business and he used that money to buy a lot of the trappings that you might think of. So for example, I remember we were the only kids on our block with a SodaStream which was quite a big deal at the time. He also got himself a Jaguar car secondhand, but still he had a Jag. And a Bang & Olufsen stereo and if I’m honest he probably showed off a little bit. But pride Now unfortunately, in the early 90s recession hit and he went bankrupt. He lost everything, house, car, SodaStream literally everything. And he was never the same man. Again. And when I read this from the dialogue in this book, it hit me absolutely like hammer, because I realised what had happened to my dad. That he had lost his external pride. His sense of self worth was external, not internal, and therefore it could be taken away. And so when I read that it just suddenly helped me understand my father. David 18:40 I can see that really moved you Chris. And I think clearly as we get older, I think we come to a different understandings of how our dad tick, I certainly never really appreciated by dad until I became a dad myself because I’m 72 Then but I appreciated all the sacrifices that that he perhaps made for me. But I think the essential point we make there is absolutely right. We can buy all the possessions that we like, I’m reminded of a story Okay, so I did like an outward bound course and about 30 years ago, actually. And it was a mixture of adventure. So we did rock climbing and potholing and rough building, but built into the course there were also moments of self reflection as well and it was a really interesting, fantastic we get one of the guys on the course. I can’t remember his name, but I wouldn’t share it with you. Anyway. One of the things we had to do when we got there was in north Wales, we drove all the way up to Snowdonia, and we were given some ideas about what we were expected to do but but actually not that much. So we got there. We arrived there at 10 o’clock at night thinking okay, we’re going to get a bed now and then the first thing they said is right you’re gonna go on a night walk now. You know, are you just gonna walk in the dark and the will be signposts along the way you will, don’t worry about get lost. There’s a moment where it gets very dark and will be a road for you to follow. And you’re going to take it in terms with like 10 minute gaps between you and you’re going to be on your own and while you’re on this walk, you’re going to experience certain things, you’re going to meet certain people and certain things happen to you. So we go in literally to the dark and into the unknown. We all do lots to see who is going to go first and who is going to go last and I was laughed. I was the last person to go and I’m with this other guy. Okay. So we’re waiting to go now. He’d come along with all of the kit in you that there’s going to be Outward Bound stuff. So he bought ropes, he brought a helmet he brought a head torch. He brought crampons he brought absolutely everything that he thought he might need for this weekend. But what he hadn’t bought with any sense of inner strength or belief so he could do this. So while we’re waiting for me to go and you know and obviously waiting for him to go cuz he was going before that, you know, we’re having a chat and I realised that he was absolutely terrified about what he was going to have to do because he was just going to have to go into the unknown, despite the fact that you bought all the kit and the amount of torches and ice axes add. They were all external things. And what he didn’t have inside himself was the belief in himself, that everything was going to be all right and that for me, was a very striking thing. I brought nothing with me at all to kind of walk out and that was about it. However, I’m a bit of a cocky side, so I just thought I’m gonna be alright. So I had my internal belief that things were gonna get me through that. He didn’t have that. I mean, he did by the end of the weekend actually really interesting so yeah, so that’s why the whole story about the difference between external trappings and actually, internal self worth and really believing in yourself. Producer Tommo 21:48 Wow, how can you be those two stories? Thanks, Chris, for sharing that. Obviously knowing known you for a number of years and I know that that would have been difficult to do so thank you. External trappings if I try and relate it to financial for a moment I often have conversations with clients. Certainly clients who come to us maybe have come into some money or think about retirement and it’s this idea of there’s nothing wrong necessarily with this strategy, but just some of the motivations behind it is this idea that oh, yeah, I think I’ll want to buy I want to buy to let property I want to buy to let portfolio and sometimes when you drill down, I’ve got this theory that some of it is down to the fact that there is this external trappings of self worth to say to somebody Yeah, I own four or five properties far more exciting than saying yeah, I have exactly the same value but it just so happens to be in a pension fund. And and I think sometimes it drives people’s financial decisions, and they might absolutely despise being being landlords and all the hassle that comes with it. It works for some i’m not suggesting for one moment if you have a buy to let portfolio of any description its a bad thing. I’m not. Just for some people is this idea to be able to say, Yeah, I’ve got some properties. Far more exciting than, Yeah, I’m okay. I’m set up. I’ve got a pension fund. So maybe there’s something there with a financial spin to it. Chris 23:17 Also thinking of another guy I know who many years ago his business was about to go bankrupt. And I popped round for coffee, just to give them some support, really, and there was a Ferrari in the driveway. And I kind of said to him, was it something just bought a Ferrari have you because I knew that his business was literally just, he was about to close it down. And he just hired it for the weekend because he was going through a very difficult thing of everybody was going to be saying that his business went back to go Boston, his pride, His external pride was hurt and he wants to be seen driving the Ferrari for weekend. I don’t think that’s going to bring him a great deal of well being because this is what this is all about. Okay, we know from the podcast we’ve heard before Professor Tim Cassa, Producer Tommo 24:01 Episodes 42 & 46 Chris 24:04 Thank you Tommo, that if you see money as the objective that this is in contradiction with the sorts of values that contribute to happiness. And it perfectly chimes with this notion of internal and external self worth that if you get yourself worth from money and what it brings that it may well give you short term or temporary joy, but it can be taken away from you so won’t necessarily last. David 24:27 Okay, just hang on there one second in case you think you’re done, Mr. Budd now, because I’m a bit confused. You just told us external self worth is transitory, although accurately the Dalai Lama has told us this. But he’s also told us that internal self worth is long lasting and contributes to happiness. I think we’ve understood that now. But how do we find so I understand external self worth hire a Ferrari for the weekend. How do we find internal self worth? Chris 24:56 Well, according to the Dalai Lama, the secret is very simple. compassion, kindness to others, warm heartedness. David 25:04 That’s it. Chris 25:05 Yeah. Producer Tommo 25:08 For my own experiences and financial planet for, yeah, getting on for quite a few years now. And from speaking to many other financial planners with a combined experience of helping 100s, if not 1000s of clients, actually, obviously, that people can reach some sorts of financial independence do one of two main things: they do some travelling and they do something to help other people. They also very often end up with more money than they thought they needed. So what would be great is if people could spend a bit more time as they go through life, and work out what makes them happy, including helping other people now and therefore, how much money they actually need is really important because it could find that they can help people now, rather than waiting and waiting and waiting. David 26:05 So we’ve come back rather nicely, actually. So what are the well worn and I make no apologies for this well worn theme of this podcast, which is, you know, that’s what financial wellbeing planning is all about. But I think what we’ve also realised that clearly, underneath all of this, we’ve really touched on it today, I think in quite a moving way. You know, when we look at our feelings of self worth, and the way it makes us feel, then that really is going to affect some of the judgments we make, about how we help to plan not only our financial wellbeing but our financial future. Producer Tommo 26:39 Exactly, David as always summarised brilliantly David 26:42 Excellent. Well, listen, this has been a really enjoyable podcast is that the right word? And it’s certainly been very moving and very touching. Thanks to both of you for sharing. Thanks, Chris, for that lovely story about your dad bless him. And I hope that you’ve all taken something away from this. I hope you’ll find your own way of finding your inner self worth. And once you’ve done that, I hope you’ll join us for another one in our series of financial wellbeing.

Episode 81 – Going Beyond: Interview with Eric Roberge The guys are going global in this episode of The Financial Wellbeing Podcast as they chat with ‘Beyond Your Hammock’ founder Eric Roberge from Boston in America. They explore what a financial plan looks like and the process to create one, along with a great #tightasstommo tip if you are ever in Boston for a night out. Along with regular money saving tips and the no shizzle sherlock test, come and enjoy a brilliant episode. Welcomes & Introductions Click here for more information about Ovation FinanceLink to Chris Budd’s Amazon book page What is today’s podcast all about? An interview with Eric Roberge, a fellow financial planner from America who founded his own financial planning firm, Beyond Your Hammock – they help people to use their money as a tool to live well. Something we appreciate here on the Financial Wellbeing Podcast The No Shizzle Sherlock Test Every episode the guys will take a look at a questionable financial tip Today’s Tip – Shortselling “advice” from TikTok #TightAssTommo Featuring nights out in Boston, getting old and what to do with a windfall. Today’s topic – Kids Pass App (click here for link) Do you have a brilliant #TightAssTommo money saving tip? Come and tell us on Twitter @FinWellbeing or email it to us contact@finwell-being.co.uk Interview with Eric Roberge Introduction to Boston, Massachusetts! History of how Eric honed in on money and life, making it for for you now and financial freedom in the future Its not about the money, it’s about how money supports you What does being a certified planner in the USA mean? What does Eric think a financial plan looks like? evolves as peoples lives changelink to Carl Richards episodes 15 and 19 What does the process of making a financial plan look like? work out what you value in lifelook at your current financial situationexplore goals for the futurelink to James Clear Values List How to use your money to support your values Is it possible to envisage our future selves? What barriers do people face when it comes to engaging with their finances Our relationships with money Why is Eric’s company called ‘Beyond Your Hammock’? Conclusions from the guys Click here to read the article ‘Don’t Leave Everything For a Rainy Day’ from Darren Cooke If you would like to purchase a copy of The Financial Wellbeing Book please click on this link to visit Penny Brohn UK shop

Episode 80 – 10 Financial Tips I Wish I Could Tell My 18 Year Old Self In this episode the guys think about turning back time to consider sage financial tips they wish they understood when they were 18, you know, way way back in the day! With another No Shizzle Sherlock test and the perennial favourite #tightasstommo we have a great episode for you. Welcomes & Introductions Featuring holidays in Scotland with a game of Shinty, young children and a COVID vaccination recommendation What is todays podcast all about? If you could go back in time and give your 18 year old self a financial tip – what would it be? The guys share some great advice, both pithy and serious. The No Shizzle Sherlock Test Every episode the guys will take a look at a questionable financial tip Today’s Tip – How many millionaires do you know who have become wealthy by investing in savings accounts? Robert G Allen #TightAssTommo Featuring Producer Tommo’s very cheap golf kit! Todays Topic – The guys share some financial hints and tips, from alllll the years experience they have. They have made the mistakes so you don’t have to. 1 – Choice of career and university degree – consider what you enjoy Darren Cook – Don’t have 4 kids! 2 – Choice of career and university degree – it is okay if what you enjoy changes. Annie Shaw -Never put off saving tomorrow, what you could be saving today 3 – Work harder Paula White – Maintain a balance between spending and saving 4 – Gambling is a total and utter waste of money 5 – Think about your spending and if it is really bringing you joy. Matt Aitchison – You will remember experiences, not the tat you buy 6 – Learn how to meal plan – including the joy of soup! Martha Lawson, Squanderlust Podcast – Quality over quantity Ed Dymott – Don’t get a credit card, Karen Wake agrees – It’s not credit, it’s debt 7 – Let yourself be happier Brenden Frazier, Thu Human Side of Money – Focus less on accumulating money and focus more on how you allocate it 8 – Take up the company pension scheme Chris Ankers – During summer holidays, find work that gives you experience in your later career – and be interested! 9 – Divide a windful, save half/spend half 10 – Work out what you want from life and spend your money on that! The things that make us happy are social relationships, so compassion, self compassion and friendship brings wellbeing, focus your money on fostering that. Thank you to our listeners, for all your top tips If you would like to purchase a copy of The Financial Wellbeing Book please click on this link to visit Penny Brohn UK shop If you would like to get in touch with Ovation, click here to visit the website email enquiries@ovationfinance.co.uk or call on 0117 942 4333 Do you have any financial wellbeing questions you would like us to answer? Or do you have a #tightasstommo money saving tip you would like to share with our listeners? If so, let us know by going to Twitter @Finwellbeing or email – contact@financialwell-being.co.uk