Gospel Tangents Podcast

Brittany Mangelson is the Pastor for the Community of Christ in Salt Lake City. We'll discuss her conversion to Community of Christ, the difference between a pastor & a bishop, and her podcast called Project Zion. Check out our conversation.... https://youtu.be/npZWOdCChxQ Don’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/brittany-mangelson transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved

Rick B held a livestream video discussing the purchase of the Kirtland Temple by the LDS Church this week. Of course, there is a lot of interest in the temple. We'll talk about that and the other properties included in the transaction, including the Nauvoo properties, and several important artifacts https://youtube.com/live/7FSCM92meOE transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

What takeaways does David Boice have from attending more than 104 churches? The author and host of 52 Churches in 52 Weeks will tell us, and also tell us what ideas he has for a future project. Check out our conversation.... https://youtu.be/KGzeAPw4czA Copyright © 2023 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission Takeaways from 104 Churches Interview GT  00:28  Are there any other takeaways? Has your spirituality increased, decreased, going to these 100+ churches? David  00:38  Yes, I will say, when I did it, the first time I compare it to Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. (Daniel Chapter 3) I felt like my faith was on fire when I was doing it. One of the tricky things that happened, when I stopped doing it the first time, was then I started to go--I was so high, with all the novelty of it, that when I stopped, then things went down. GT  01:02  Right. David  01:02  And I think one of the biggest takeaways from that is the importance of church community. Because I'm seeing all these different churches I am observing. But I'm not really getting the full church community. And so afterwards, with this current 52 Churches in 52 Weeks, that was one thing I was looking more for: Let me plug into a church afterwards. Let me get that church community and get a better sense of that. That is a lot more difficult than I thought, especially from my faith background. GT  01:41  Especially from the LDS, we're always like, are you going to join? Are you going to join? Do you have any affinity towards any of these, Baptists, Pentecostal, Episcopal, anything like that? Catholic? David  01:51  It's interesting after doing this now, because before, I termed myself as inter-denominational. So, with all these different denominations, I want to be as open and welcoming as possible. Now, after completing this, I feel like this blender of appreciation for all these different types of churches, for those that I found a lot of appreciation with. Now, I'm like, what am I? Am I 70% Protestant, 20% Latter Day Saint, 10% Catholic, maybe 1% Seventh Day Adventist? I don't know. It a mix... GT  02:39  Well, you didn't say Lutheran in there. I thought that would be in there. David  02:41  I guess, with Protestant. I'm just grouping in all the Protestant denominations. GT  02:46  Uh huh. David  02:46  But it's interesting after completing that, because I see something really, really good, like from LDS, from a family aspect. But then I look also at maybe a different church over here, with Roman Catholics, I see the appreciation that they have for all these senses, and how that impacts spirituality. Then, I see all these different types of Protestant views, with the Pentecostals and the snake handling. I'm not saying I'm going to turn [to] snake handling or hold a snake anytime, ever, ever. Yeah. {Rick laughing} GT  03:26  You're like Indiana Jones? David  03:27  Yeah. But you see different things. And then you also empathize with some of the struggles that some of these churches are going through, as well. And I feel like with my channel, especially for those that may be going through a faith crisis, I at least hope that it helps people just to see what else is out there. Because it's easy for me, as a first-time visitor, of course, as a newcomer, it's going to be a positive experience for the most part, because you're not seeing the warts. You're not seeing the bad. You're seeing everything good. But I don't know where I was finishing with that thought. You become a little bit of everything, I feel, when you see so much. GT  04:09  So are you going to continue with a third 52 weeks? Or are you just going to your Lutheran Church? Or what are you doing now?[1] David  04:16  That's a big question. With a third one, I'm playing around with different ideas. Because it is expensive, it takes up a lot of time.

I was surprised to discover that the Church of Jesus Christ has no official position on Trinity or Godhead when it comes to the nature of God. What do they believe? Evangelist Josh Gehly gives both official and personal beliefs. Check out our conversation.... https://youtu.be/U2xttRWHLw4 Don’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehly transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission GT  00:43  All right. So just to finish up then, it sounds like you've got a president. He's got two counselors.  Josh  00:52  Yes, those three are included with nine other apostles.  GT  00:55  Correct. Then you have a single Quorum of Seventy, and your [Seventies] mission, or you're responsibility is mainly for missionary work and administering to small branches throughout the world.  Josh  01:10  Exactly, just like Matthew 10, the Lord calls Twelve, and they are the apostles. We look at Luke Chapter 10, the Lord calls Seventy, and we believe they are the evangelists. That's our extrapolation and interpretation of that scripture. So, that's our source text for it and where we go. So, yeah, we have a Quorum of Seventy Evangelists.  GT  01:33  Okay. And then in the LDS Church, we have multiple Quorums of Seventy. Oh, we haven't talked about the Doctrine & Covenants, because in the Doctrine and Covenants, it says we can have seven Quorums of Seventy. And I know that William Bickerton, especially, was a big proponent of Joseph Smith's revelation on the Civil War.  Josh  01:59  Right, yeah. You'll find that around our branch.  GT  02:02  He kind of liked the baptisms for the dead, but that died out as well.  Josh  02:07  Yeah, hard to track that, really.  GT  02:09  We talked to Daniel Stone about that. But so do you know why your church decided to abandon the Doctrine and Covenants? Besides polygamy, that's the obvious one.  Josh  02:24  I'm not sure I can speak on behalf of the church of the 1850s and 60s, perfectly. I do have ancestry that goes back that far, but...  GT  02:34  Oh, really?   Josh  02:35  Yeah, I'm six generations deep, thank God.  GT  02:38  Wow.  Josh  02:41  But I would say that, I think, for us, when we interpret Ezekiel 37, about the two sticks, we look at that as the Bible and Book of Mormon. We don't see a third book being discussed in that moment. And so, there's a lot of good revelations that are from that time period. There are revelations about the three and eight witnesses. I would, obviously, accept that as being from the Lord. But our church does not canonize any of that. We don't regard them, necessarily, or have any authoritative stance or position on one versus the other. But for us, when we read Ezekiel 37, we read about two books becoming one in God's hand, two sticks, becoming the one in God's hand for the redemption of Israel and the glory of the latter-day work. That's what we believe we have in the Bible and Book of Mormon, and that's why we're a two-book church. We look forward to records to come. The Book of Mormon obviously talks about the brass plates never dimming. The Book of Mormon talks about the sealed portion and the revelation and the gift of the brother Jared. So, through the word of God, we have prophetic promise of more to come. But I don't read anywhere in the Book of Mormon that says, and there will be a book that comes from the Gentiles or comes from the from this restoration. I don't read that, necessarily.  GT  04:05  Okay. Yep. And then so I guess we need to go into Pearl of Great Price. You guys have never accepted the Book of Abraham or books of Moses or anything like that, or even the Inspired Version of the Bible.  Josh  04:20  Correct. Yeah, we don't, even though that was Rigdon and Joseph Smith's project together. I mean, in tandem they did the bulk of that work,

What's it like to attend a Bickertonite Church service? Rick Bennett (LDS) & Josh Gehly (Bickertonite) share their experiences attending the Church of Jesus Christ. Did you know that each week, they ask the congregation if they would like to receive a blessing by laying on of hands? Find out more in our next conversation... https://youtu.be/U6c4aoMblMM Don’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehly   Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission GT  0:35 It's so fun. Going back both to my meeting in Florida, as well as when I attended Reid's baptism a couple of months ago, in both cases, and I believe you do this every week. Correct me if I'm wrong. You have what we would [call,] I guess, the first hour is usually Sunday school. Is that right? [You meet] for about an hour.   Josh  01:00  Yes, we'd like to do a scripture study. We like to give something for the kids. Usually that's happening first.  GT  01:07  And so that's typically Bible, Book of Mormon preaching sort of thing.   Josh  01:12  Yes, very much so engaged; Hopefully, it's done, right, unless it's really, really—the spirit takes over, which we're okay with that, usually, it's Q&A. Let's read these verses. Let's talk about them. What does this mean for you? What's the Lord speaking here? It can be really, if it's done right, hopefully, we're really engaging with the congregation where they feel a part of the lesson.  GT  01:37  And so then the second hour, you usually have what we would call a sacrament meeting. I don't know if you call it communion or sacrament.  Josh  01:48  Communion is fine. Often, I call it the Lord's Supper. It’s all fair.  GT  01:53  Do you do that every week?  Josh  01:54  Every Sunday, yes.  GT  01:55  Okay, so that's similar to ours.  Josh  01:56  Sometimes we have the freedom. This is something that's a little unique. If there's a meeting, and a minister feels to have communion on a Wednesday, great!  GT  02:09  Okay.  Josh  02:10  Now, does that happen? Not very often. But that is certainly allowed. We have done that. I mean, it’s under inspiration. When the Spirit speaks, we really want to be the church that Moroni talks about, where he says, "Our meetings were conducted after the manner of the workings of the spirit, whether to pray, whether to preach or exhort, to supplicate, to sing." We want to be that. And so yeah, we have [in our meetings,] you're going to see a Sunday School lesson. You're going to see some type of worship service. There is going to be the Lord's Supper there. Usually, there's going to be testimonies, opportunity for people stand up and praise God. You're going to have the opportunity to have hands laid on you for strength or for anointing, for healing. Those things are all offered, and typical.  But the way that might get mixed up, or on a random Wednesday, you come in and all of a sudden, the table is set. And now we're in for a spiritual good time together.  GT  03:10  Okay. And that was what I found interesting was, we would have a testimony meeting once a [month] and in our church, it's almost always on the first Sunday. Sometimes we'll move it to the second Sunday or the last Sunday, whatever. But typically, it's the first Sunday of the month, we will have a testimony meeting. But it seems like you have a testimony meeting, or what we would call testimony meeting every week.  Josh  03:33  Yeah. Our meetings are not short. If you want to critique us and walk out and say, "That was long." I'm going to be like, yeah, that's us. So, we have testimony almost every Sunday. It's just pretty standard. It allows the congregation to stand up and glorify God for what he's done for them.  GT  03:55  Right. Oh, well, and also, just to make sure that people are clear on this, you don't say, "Brother Bennett,

The Church of Jesus Christ based in Monongahela, PA allows for limited female priesthood ordination of women. We'll discuss women's roles with Josh Gehly, an evangelist in the church and discuss Bickertonite Church structure. Is an Evangelist similar to the LDS calling of Seventy? We'll also discuss differences in baptismal practices. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/E_Pusr4YeHc Don’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehly   Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission GT  00:35  Well, let's go into a few other things here. I'd like to dive a little bit more into your church. We've definitely been talking about our similarities here.   Josh  00:45  Yeah.  GT  00:45  Let's talk a little bit about similarities and differences.  Josh  00:50  Great.  GT  00:51  So, in your church, you serve as an evangelist.  Josh  00:54  I do.  GT  00:55  And when I spoke to you earlier, you have Seventy Evangelists. And so, of course, in the LDS Church, we have a Quorum of Seventy. It sounds like you would be a Seventy, we would call you a Seventy in our church.  Josh  01:11  That would be very comparable. We don't use that phrasing, really. We do have a Quorum of Seventy. It is our evangelists. And for us, that is the tip of the spear on the missionary efforts around the world for the church. The evangelists and the Quorum of Seventy are the overseers of those projects.  GT  01:30  So, just one Quorum of Seventy?  Josh  01:32  Correct.  GT  01:33  Okay. Because I'm trying to--well, let's talk a little bit about church structure.  Josh  01:38  Yeah.  GT  01:39  So, you have a president of your church. Would you call him a prophet?  Josh  01:46  We do not. Although, this gets a little away from structure. But we do believe the gift of prophecy is active and alive, and throughout the church. You will see both apostles and members under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit say, "Thus saith the Lord," and give the word of the Lord. And sometimes those are prophetic utterances. And so that is not limited in the church to a specific role. We would, maybe humbly, make the argument that even scripturally, Isaiah was not necessarily a leader of the church, but he was a prophet. We have room for the gift of prophecy throughout the church, but it's not necessarily restricted to a specific office. I know that is definitely a difference. That's something unique, maybe to us. Our presidency, then, to your point is--this is something we changed after the death of Joseph Smith. In the 1800s, we came about with a change. The change was our Quorum of Twelve, the presidency is within the Quorum of Twelve. So, we only have Twelve apostles, and [out of] those 12, the presidency is a functioning unit within the Twelve.  GT  03:02  Okay, so the First Presidency, rather-- like in our church, we've got 12 plus 3, you've just got 12.  Josh  03:09  We've got 12, plus zero. (Chuckling)  GT  03:13  And so the First Presidency are also apostles.  Josh  03:17  Correct.  GT  03:18  Because I know in our [church] I believe, I'm pretty sure this is true. In the Community of Christ, their First Presidency is not necessarily an apostle.   Josh  03:30  Okay. That is very different. Our presidency are all apostles. That's our pool. When it comes to the ministry, electing a president or a counselor, the only available options are our quorum of Twelve apostles.  GT  03:50  Okay. And then do they serve for a set term, or is it a lifetime appointment?  Josh  03:53  Well, it's always been elected. So it has always been...  GT  03:58  They have a vote?  Josh  03:59  Yeah, we’ve always had a vote.  GT  04:00  And it was not unanimous, like in my church?  Josh  04:03  It doesn't have to be unanimous. It doesn't have to be.

Josh Gehly gives a non-LDS Defense of the Book of Mormon. He is an Evangelist (what LDS would call a Seventy) of the Church of Jesus Christ based in Monongahela, PA, and shares his book, "Witnessing Miracles" which deals with a defense of the Book of Mormon. He even takes on Dan Vogel! We'll talk more about his church, and find out of this "non-Mormon" gets discriminated against just like Mormons. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/c2TefZ01AZE Don’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehly   Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission GT  00:36  Well, let's dive into your book, "Witnessing Miracles," because this is, I would argue, any LDS person would have no problems with this book at all.  Josh  00:48  Thank you.  GT  00:48  Because it's really very LDS Orthodox, I would say, except for the Hugh Hefner part.  Josh  00:57  (Chuckling) Well, there's no there's no turf within the Book of Mormon. Right? The Book of Mormon doesn't belong to a church. So when we're looking at them.  GT  01:04  Well, we think it belongs to us.  Josh  01:06  Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, maybe you need a few of our translations, then and vice versa. We'll take Portuguese. We'll give you a Chichewa.1 How does that sound?  GT  01:14  There you go.  Josh  01:17  But for us, the Book of Mormon doesn't belong to one church. It's a gift for the world. It's a gift for all mankind. It's a gift for Israel. So, for us, the reason why I think the book applies to any Book of Mormon believer is because--I'm not going to mince anything. I'm not going to hide anything that happened in the early history, even stuff that may make me uncomfortable, the excommunication, some of that different stuff that happened. But in regarding the relevance to the question of: what is the best explanation for the existence of the Book of Mormon? A critic and a scholar and a believer can all get in the room and say, "The Book of Mormon exists." So, what are the core facts that we're all going to agree on in the room? And then we can build our arguments of how this book came into existence. What was the method? What was the mode? What was the means? I use the historical method of inference to the best explanation to boil down all the background, all the data and all the Restoration history, down to a set of core facts that Dan Vogel and I would sit at a table and agree with. Okay?  GT  02:28  Have you spoken to Dan?  Josh  02:30  Well, I've read his books. Okay. I know he and I both agree on all of the core facts that are in my book. Then it's a question on what's the best explanation of the facts. That's what Gary Habermas does with the resurrection. That's what William Lane Craig does with the resurrection. They boil down the historical evidence to a set of core facts, and then they infer the best explanation of the facts. And those are core facts that maybe Bart Ehrman agrees with, maybe other critics might agree with. So, I'm taking the same approach and overlaying that together. And that's why, whether you're a Latter-day Saint, whether you're a part of some of the independent branches, whether your Community of Christ, or whether you're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, when it comes to the historical grounds of were there really golden plates in a hill in New York? We can address that together. That's something we all have in common.  GT  03:23  Now, one of the things that I thought was really interesting, that I learned from this book was, you are an archaeology major.  Josh  03:30  I was, yeah. It's getting farther in my rearview mirror. But I did get a degree of archaeological science.  GT  03:37  So, you're my third archaeologist. From Penn State, the Nittany Lions? Oh wow.  Josh  03:40  Yes, sir. We are baby.  GT  03:42  Happy Valley.

Josh Gehly is an evangelist from the Church of Jesus Christ. His church dates back to the days of Sidney Rigdon and is sometimes called the Bickertonite Church. Josh has written a new book "Witnessing Miracles" that provides evidence for both the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon. We'll get acquainted with Josh and his book. Check out our conversation...   https://youtu.be/93dvoCQIwk0 Don’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehly   Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission GT  00:45  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have a second member of the Church of Jesus Christ, based in Monongahela, Pennsylvania [on the show.] Sometimes we call them the Bickertonites. Could you go ahead and tell us who you are and what your calling in your church is?  Josh  01:00  Hi, everybody. My name is Josh Gehly. I'm an ordained evangelist in the Church of Jesus Christ.   GT  01:05  All right. Well, that's exciting. Daniel Stone was my previous member of your church. [He] wrote a book about William Bickerton. I will encourage you guys to check that out. He's a historian. Josh is not, but he's written an amazing book, "Witnessing Miracles: Historical Evidence for the Resurrection and the Book of Mormon." One of the interesting things, and I did warn Josh [that] I was going to ask him about this. I think it's the only book about the Book of Mormon that quoted Hugh Hefner.  Josh  01:37  Right off the bat! {both laughing}  GT  01:40  And so it was a fantastic book. Why would you put Hugh Hefner in a book about the Book of Mormon?  Josh  01:47  Yeah, absolutely. Well, Hugh should have read the Book of Mormon a little bit better. Maybe it would have helped him in the end. {Rick laughing} But I would just say my passion for this started, obviously the whole book is in the title there. Right? We're comparing the two greatest miracles from all of human history: the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and overlaying that with the historical evidence for the resurrection of Christ. That ties to Hugh Hefner, because there was a time when Hugh was being interviewed on, of all things, that exact topic. And he basically said, well, I hope it's true. I would hope it's true. Because if Christ really rose from the dead, that would open up a marvelous set of possibilities. But he was implying in that interview that there wasn't any actual evidence. I read that in context, from a book. I believe the interview at that time was Lee Strobel.  GT  02:42  Okay.  Josh  02:42  He's a researcher on the Resurrection. Lee was basically using that interview that he did to demonstrate that Hugh, while he had all this ability to look at the evidence that had already been done, his argument was, well, he really hadn't looked into the details. When I saw that, it just jumped out at me, because the same can be said for those that are the actual researchers, whom I adore and passionately follow. People like Professor Gary Habermas at Liberty University, William Lane Craig and others, that defend the resurrection. They've staked their claims and their career, on the fact that Jesus rose from the dead, and they lay out their historical boundaries as to why that's the case. They go, and they do debates, and they print their books, and they do all this stuff. And then when it comes to other miracles, and they encourage that. They say, oh. They'll literally write in some of their text. "Well, people could use this same criteria to evaluate other miracles." But when it comes to the Book of Mormon, they weren't willing to fill that gap, would be my point, my argument. So just like Hugh Hefner wasn't willing to take the step on the evidence for the historical resurrection of Christ, I would argue, so many people that believe in the historical resurrection of Jesus haven't taken the ...

We'll find out more about the backgrounds of murder victims Gus Gibbons & Steve LeSueur. Were they Nauvoo pioneers? We'll also find out that Butch Cassidy grew up in a small Utah town (Circleville), although it seems that Mormonism didn't really take with him. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/VzKpjBEeyzo   Copyright © 2023 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission Butch Cassidy's Mormon Background We'll find out more about the backgrounds of murder victims Gus Gibbons & Steve LeSueur. Were they Nauvoo pioneers? We'll also find out that Butch Cassidy grew up in a small Utah town (Circleville), although it seems that Mormonism didn't really take with him. Check out our conversation... Interview Steve  00:33  Among the interesting characters that we meet along the way, besides the interesting outlaws, is the sheriff, Edward Beeler. He was born in 1864. So, he was 36 at this time, and he was married to Mary Hamblin, who was a daughter of Jacob Hamblin, the famed... GT  01:01  I recognize that name. Steve  01:03  [Hamblin is] the famed Mormon apostle to the Lamanites. Ed Beeler was not a Mormon. He was a tall, handsome man and people said she [his wife] was very good looking, herself. Anyway, he was tall, and he was a hard-as-nails kind of Sheriff. He got along well with the Mormons and [he was] very well-liked as a sheriff, up to this point. But after the murders, many townspeople blamed him for the young men having been left alone on the trail. And by all accounts, what I can read and by his actions, he blamed himself, as well. [He] felt really bad[ly] about it and so after the boys were found, he organized another posse and he went on an obsessive two-and-a-half-month chase for the outlaws, which is in the book. This chase, it's covered in newspapers. Of course, he had other posse members with him, and he chased them back into New Mexico, down into Mexico, up through New Mexico again. They killed another lawman in New Mexico. GT  02:13  I'm surprised Pancho Villa is not in this. {chuckling} Steve  02:15  Yeah, he's in another story of another side of my family. GT  02:20  Oh really? That's your next book. Steve  02:22  Yes, yeah, the Skousens. GT  02:24  Oh, like Cleon Skousen? Steve  02:28  Cleon Skousen. GT  02:29  His ancestors. Steve  02:31  My grandfather Carl, the younger brother of Frank, he married a Skousen, Merle Skousen, who was a daughter of Peter Skousen, who went into the colonies with the Romneys and others. And so, they were down there with Pancho Villa. My grandmother was born in the year 1900, in those colonies. Anyway, they didn't get to Pancho Villa, because this is just 1900. So, backup. [The outlaws] killed another lawman in New Mexico. They chased them up through Colorado into Utah, where they killed the sheriff and his deputy from Moab, Utah, which called out more posses. It was the largest manhunt in Utah, up to that point, in Utah history. And so, it's two and a half months of chasing these outlaws. Let's see. [I'm] looking for a quote from Ed Beeler. Let's see oh, yeah. So Ed Beeler, during his chase, he was interviewed at various times by newspaper men from Utah, about what he was doing, what he hoped to do. And what he said about this quest, he said, "The boys that these cowardly villains shot to pieces in the south, were my friends. They sacrificed their lives to assist me and I will even up the score. These fellows may as well fight me in one place as another as the time when we meet is bound to come. I know them all, and I am as positive of their identity as though they were behind prison bars." Steve  04:14  So, he was determined to get them. He didn't. But that's because there's another thing of reading about outlaws. It was very hard to actually capture outlaws, especially after, say, a robbery or something or even this incident.

We're going to dive into Utah's decade of black and Indian slavery, and I'll ask Mauli Bonner some hard questions. Should Mormons think about renaming buildings at BYU who have ties to slavery? Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/vkZKWN9MAM0 Don’t miss our other conversations with Mauli: https://gospeltangents.com/people/mauli-bonner Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission Utah’s Slave History GT  00:54  I do wonder, it seems like Margaret Young said this, that New Mexico wanted to come into the union as a free state and California did, as well. Brigham Young's looking at the calculations. Hey, well, if we come in as a slave state, we'll keep the balance of slavery slave states to free states, and it'll be easier to get into the Union. Now, clearly, there was a polygamy problem. Mauli  01:21  Yeah, yeah, there's that. GT  01:25  But, is that your understanding as well? Was this really just a political thing so that Utah could become a slave state to keep the balance of slavery? Mauli  01:35  I think that that's a part of it. If you ask me, there's a whole lot more into this. I feel, just like politics today, there's our politicians who are giving their speeches or running for office. Then there's the people who have the money, who are pushing them to do whatever they need to do. And so, if you have people who are the money people behind making this successful, they have a huge influence on it. So, if you can imagine, a lot of the saints coming through were poor had hardly nothing. They barely had enough to make it into the valley. Then, you have some of the Southern converts that are doing just fine. They've sold everything they owned, which was a lot back in the south. Their money is in their enslaved labor and their wagons and their seed and their furniture. And so they're coming in--and in their tools and their everything. So, now you get into Utah, and you're telling me that I'm going to lose half of my wealth? Then I'm going back. And if they go back... GT  02:37  You're talking about wealth. You're talking about slave wealth. Mauli  02:40  Yes, slave wealth. Well, in my mind, this is what's happening. So, you have these families, these very prominent rich families who are going to threaten to go back, because why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't they? So, they'll go back, take their slave labor with them, all their wagons, all their seed, all their tools. How in the world are the saints going to survive? So, I think that was also weighing in the balance, in my opinion.     Abraham Smoot Building at BYU GT  03:06  This brings up another tough subject. And when I say tough, one of the things I've found it's so easy to talk about race issues with a black person. It's a lot harder to talk about it with a white person. Mauli  03:22  Yeah. There's a lot more landmines. GT  03:27  "We're not racist." Mauli  03:28  Yeah. GT  03:28  Yeah, we are. But Abraham Smoot was one of these southern slaveholders. There's an administration building at BYU that's named after him. He was a great leader in the LDS Church. A few years ago, it seems like there was a question, especially with Black Lives Matter, and the George Floyd murder, and everything like that. Mauli  03:59  It just woke us all up. GT  04:01  Yeah. And so should we rename both BYU, because Brigham Young put enough pressure that people passed it. We do want to talk about Orson Pratt, too, but also the Abraham Smoot Building, because he owned a lot of slaves. What's your position on that? Mauli  04:24  Gosh, it's so tough. Unfortunately, for some, this is my position. If it's hurting people, if it's causing people harm to have to walk into a building that reminds them of abuse, and all the worst things that come with slavery, because the worst things that happened in the south, also did happen in Utah,