Gospel Tangents Podcast

Rick B
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Aug 7, 2025 • 1h 18min

Mormons, Shootouts, & Outlaws: Wild West Murder of Frank LeSueur

This is a re-broadcast of my 2023 interview with Steve LeSueur. Unfortunately Steve passed away from pancreatic cancer on July 1, 2025. Mormons were part of the untamed world of the Wild West—complete with outlaws, shootouts, and the kind of drama you’d expect straight out of a western film. In this episode, Steve LeSueur shares the gripping story of his great-uncle Frank LeSueur and his friend Gus Gibbons, who were murdered by the notorious outlaw gang known as The Wild Bunch. There’s even a surprising connection to the infamous Butch Cassidy. Join us as we explore the real dangers Mormons faced on the frontier. Don’t miss our conversation… https://youtu.be/QcPqQ7TQPrE Don’t miss our other conversations with Steve: https://gospeltangents.com/people/steve-lesueur/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. Today, we’re sharing a powerful story that highlights the often-overlooked human cost of the Wild West era, brought to life by a historian who deeply personal connection to the past. We’re talking about Steve LeSueur, a wonderful historian and author who sadly passed away in July 2025 due to pancreatic cancer. This post is a tribute to his work and his last interview on Gospel Tangents, where he discussed his remarkable book, Life and Death on the Mormon Frontier: The Murders of Frank LeSueur and Gus Gibbons by The Wild Bunch, published by Greg Kofford Books. Steve LeSueur was driven to explore a piece of his own family history that had been shrouded in mystery for generations. His great-uncle, Frank LeSueur, was murdered by outlaws in 1900. While his family always knew Frank was killed, the details were scarce, and the killers were believed to have gotten away with little effort to capture them. His grandfather, Carl LeSueur, Frank’s younger brother, was only five when Frank was killed and didn’t have many details to share. For over a century, it was largely considered “some minor episode in western history”. However, in recent years, historians and biographers specializing in outlaws like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid began to point fingers. These historians, some of whom had Mormon ties, suggested that Butch Cassidy’s Wild Bunch gang were the likely culprits behind Frank’s death. This new information ignited Steve’s interest, drawing him into a deeper investigation. What truly set Steve’s work apart was his unique perspective: focusing on the victims. As he noted, historians often prioritize the outlaws, their daring heists, and exciting getaways, treating victims as mere “bit players” or “extras in a movie”. Steve, however, looked at the events from the victim’s point of view, reading journals, diaries, and reminiscences left behind by Latter-day Saints in the community. He discovered a compelling story that offered numerous insights into both the outlaws and the community itself. It turns out, not many people have an ancestor killed by a famous outlaw. Despite the year being 1900, which might sound somewhat modern, the setting for this tragedy was truly still the Wild West. Frank LeSueur’s murder occurred just outside St. Johns, Arizona, a “dusty cattle and sheep town”. In 1900, this town had no electricity and no running water. It was an era where cars and airplanes were not yet commonplace. Steve LeSueur’s research has profoundly enhanced our understanding of this specific Wild West tragedy, shifting the narrative to those who suffered the most. His book stands as a vital contribution to history, reminding us that every “bit player” has a story worth telling. We miss Steve greatly, and our hearts go out to his family. Don’t miss our other conversations with Steve: https://gospeltangents.com/people/steve-lesueur/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.
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Jul 28, 2025 • 0sec

Exploring Beaver Island (3 of 3)

Come see the site where James Strang was killed as we explore the captivating history of Beaver Island, a unique gem in Lake Michigan, especially its ties to James Strang and his Mormon community. https://youtu.be/xdnR28tTeEs Don’t miss our other conversations about Strangism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/strangites/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. 3 Mormon Print Shop   Arrival and Reign of King Strang James Strang, a self-proclaimed prophet, settled on Beaver Island around 1848, having arrived in 1847. He led a group of Mormon dissenters who broke away from Brigham Young’s leadership and settled on the island in 1846. By 1850, Strang was declared King of his community, which constituted the majority of the island’s population. The main hub of the island is even named St. James, after him. Strang’s influence extended to societal norms, where he apparently mandated that women wear bloomers or pants to prevent pneumonia, with husbands being whipped if their wives didn’t comply. He also reportedly told non-Mormons (like the Irish settlers and original Ottawa/Ojibwe inhabitants) that they needed to convert, leave, or pay a tax. The Mormon Print Shop A pivotal location in Strang’s community was the Old Mormon Printing House, erected in 1850 by Strang and his followers2. This building was significant as it published the Northern Islander, which was the first daily newspaper north of Grand Rapids. During the 1850s, Strang’s group published religious works and two newspapers: the Northern Islander and the Daily Northern Islander. After Strang’s assassination, the print shop was ransacked and later became a boarding house. Today, it stands as a museum and serves as the headquarters for the Beaver Island Historical Society. Tragic End of King Strang The growing friction within Beaver Island’s Mormon community reached a violent climax in 1856. James Jesse Strang was fatally shot and clubbed by two of his disgruntled followers while walking towards the dock to meet the captain of the USS Michigan. These assassins were reportedly hiding behind a woodpile near the Johnson McCulla store. It’s notable that two of the assassins were husbands who had been whipped under Strang’s controversial bloomers policy. Strang died from his wounds 23 days later. The assassins were taken to Mackinaw Island by the USS Michigan’s captain, who refused to allow the Mormon police to arrest them. They were soon released by the Mackinaw sheriff, celebrated by Strang’s enemies, and astonishingly, each was fined only 50 cents, though the exact charge is unknown. The Aftermath and Island Life In the wake of Strang’s assassination, an angry mob from the mainland stormed Beaver Island, destroying buildings and forcing the Mormons to flee. Beaver Island is the only island in Lake Michigan inhabited year-round, with a population of 500 to 800 people that swells to 3,000 in the summer. The island has a strong Irish presence, with many historical inhabitants speaking Gaelic and even naming a local bay “Donegal Bay” after a place in Ireland. Historically, the island’s primary industries were lumber and fishing. Overfishing, particularly using a now-outlawed net fishing method, led to severe depletion, prompting Michigan and other states to ban the practice. Today, tourism is the main industry. The island didn’t even get electricity until around 1939. Beaver Island Townships Cemetery Visitors can also explore the Beaver Island Townships Cemetery, one of two cemeteries on the island (the other being a Catholic cemetery). The oldest grave dates back to 1853, within James Strang’s era. An interesting feature of the cemetery is the presence of posts marking older graves where the original wooden crosses have long since deteriorated, indicating a body is buried there even if the identity is unknown. The second oldest grave, dated July 27, 1859, belongs to Mary Jane, wife of Thomas Hawkins. Notably, St. James Episcopal Church is located across the street from the cemetery. Beaver Island offers a rich tapestry of history, from its unique religious past under James Strang to its evolving industries and enduring natural beauty. It’s a place where history comes alive, allowing visitors to walk in the footsteps of a fascinating and turbulent era.   Don’t miss our other conversations about Strangism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/strangites/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.
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Jul 25, 2025 • 35min

Tour of Beaver Island (2 of 3)

See what a local historian thinks about James Strang as we tour the town of St James on Beaver Island, Michigan. Check out the conversation! https://youtu.be/wBl1C55HoyY Don’t miss our other conversations about Strangism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/strangites/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. Beaver Island: A Journey Through Time and Tyranny in Lake Michigan Welcome to Beaver Island, often called “America’s Emerald Isle,” a fascinating gem in Lake Michigan with a history as rich and diverse as its landscape. If you’ve ever wondered about year-round island life, a unique Mormon kingdom, or the rise of an Irish community, you’re in the right place! Island Life: Year-Round Charm and Seasonal Bustle Beaver Island is unique as the only island in Lake Michigan with a year-round population. While around 600-800 people call it home in the winter, the population swells to 3,000-4,000 during the summer months. Access to the island is primarily by private boat or air service, as ferries only run until mid-December. The main community, St. James, named after James Jesse Strang himself, is where most businesses are concentrated, including the year-round community center, taverns like the Shamrock bar and restaurant, a motel, and a hardware store that also houses a gift shop and vet clinic. Many other businesses, like some restaurants and a bicycle/boat rental shop, are open only in the summer. Historically, the island’s economy relied heavily on commercial fishing, with fish being salted or iced down and sent via ferry to Charlevoix for further rail transport to cities like Indianapolis or Chicago. Hotels also played a main role in the economy for many years. Unforgettable Reign of King Strang A significant chapter in Beaver Island’s history revolves around James Jesse Strang, a controversial figure who established a Mormon colony here. Strang arrived on the island around 1847-1848, with his colony reaching approximately 1,500 people by the time of his death in 1856. Strang was an ambitious leader, and his people surveyed Beaver Island for the first time in 1848. He named the town of St. James after himself and began building a highway, the King’s Highway, also named after himself. His colony was so established that they even had a daily newspaper, the only one north of Grand Rapids at the time. However, Strang’s rule was often described as tyrannical by the tour guide. He quickly made enemies with his policies: He mandated that anyone wishing to stay on the island had to become a Mormon or pay him a tax or leave. This drove many people off the island, though some reluctantly converted because they had nowhere else to go. He authorized his followers to steal fish from other fishermen’s nets and even take items from the homes of fishermen who were out at sea, according to the guide. Initially, Strang was against plural marriages, but a couple of years after arriving, he embraced polygamy, taking four more wives after his first wife, Mary, left him and returned to Wisconsin. He was also known for peculiar practices, such as having his people build a dock just a few inches under the water in Font Lake (named for baptismal font) so he could appear to be “walking on water” when baptizing his followers. Strang also left a lasting mark on the island’s geography by naming several places with biblical references. Examples include: Font Lake, where baptisms took place. Mount Pisgah, a hill named after the biblical Mount Pisgah from which Jesus preached. It became a popular spot for people to climb. A lake on the south side of the island was called Lake Jaz or Lake Galilee, corresponding to the Sea of Galilee in the Holy Land. Interestingly, Strang was a well-educated man who passed the Michigan bar exam and could practice law. This legal expertise proved useful, as he was arrested multiple times. He was taken to Detroit for “coroner’s fitting” (likely related to counterfeiting) and later for treason and sedition, but he successfully defended himself and was acquitted in both cases. After his first acquittal, he crowned himself king. The Assassination and the Irish Influx Strang’s oppressive policies and his strict rule, including a rule that husbands of women caught wearing long dresses would be whipped, led to his downfall. In 1856, two men who had been whipped shot Strang. James was wounded and taken by boat back to Burlington, Wisconsin, where his first wife Mary was living, and he died there 17 days later. The exact charges against his assassins are unclear, but they were released after a judge (justice of the peace) charged them only 50 cents for the crime. His assassination triggered a significant demographic shift on the island. The news spread quickly, and five boatloads of people came to drive the Mormons off. Irish laborers working on the island’s lighthouse at the time sent word to relatives working on the Erie Canal and in Toronto, inviting them to come to Beaver Island, where land was available and fishing was good. By 1900, 75-90% of the island’s population was Irish. One of the first things the “Gentiles” did after driving off the Mormons was to burn down the Mormon tabernacle. Many former Strang followers who had been compelled to join Mormonism chose to renounce it and stay on the island. Other Island Features and History Beaver Island is about 14.5 miles long and encompasses approximately 54 square miles. It features two fire stations, a volunteer fire department, and a post office built around 1890 that originally served as a tavern. The island also has several cemeteries, where early settlers and fishermen were buried even before the Mormons arrived. Archaeologists have used ground-penetrating lidar to locate old graves marked by wooden crosses that have long since rotted away. They are marked by white poles now. Other notable points include: High Island, located about 4.5 miles from Beaver Island, which boasts the highest point of land on Lake Michigan. It is currently uninhabited, with the last residents, some Native American families, leaving after a severe storm in 1940. Donegal Bay in the northwest corner of the island, named to correspond with a bay in the northwest corner of Ireland, reflecting the strong Irish influence. Trout Island, which appears as two islands due to an airfield down its middle. Today, Beaver Island offers a blend of tranquil island life and fascinating historical sites, inviting visitors to explore its unique past and vibrant community.   Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.
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Jul 22, 2025 • 21min

Going on a Tangent: Beaver Island (1 of 3)

Come along on this journey to Beaver Island, where James Strang was crowned King! We’ll learn more about this early Mormon prophet. I’m taking you on a journey to Beaver Island, Michigan, a place central to the intriguing story of James Strang and his followers. You don’t want to miss this! https://youtu.be/MPrutzK6ljQ Don’t miss our other conversations about Strangism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/strangites/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.   James Strang: From Convert to Contender The tale begins with James Strang, a relatively recent convert to Mormonism, having joined the church just a few months before Joseph Smith sent him on a mission to Wisconsin. After Joseph Smith was killed on June 27, 1844, James Strang made two significant claims to succeed Smith: Angelic Ordination: Strang claimed that the angel Moroni appeared to him and ordained him to be the next prophet1. Letter of Appointment: He also presented a letter, purportedly from Joseph Smith, dated June 18, with a postmark from Nauvoo, Illinois, on June 19. The authenticity of this “letter of appointment” has been a major point of contention. Brigham Young immediately deemed it a forgery. A peculiar postmark (due to a piece of lint in the Nauvoo stamp) was used at the Nauvoo post office. Young followers claimed this was evidence of a forgery. However, when it was shown to be on other letters, Strang used as proof of authenticity. Michael Quinn, a historian, believed the letter was a fraud or forgery. Quinn noted that the signature was written in block letters and Joseph Smith’s signature did not match his usual signature, although he acknowledged Joseph often used scribes. Quinn speculated that Strang might have taken a genuine letter from Nauvoo and written on it himself, with the postmark appearing to be genuine. The letter itself was vague, not explicitly naming Strang as the new church president, but rather seeming to put him in charge of the church in Wisconsin, a role Strang might have “inflated”. Despite the controversy, Strang attracted some notable converts, including Joseph Smith’s brother, William Smith, as well as John Page, Martin Harris, and William Marks, with several members of the Smith family initially encouraging him. Kingdom on Beaver Island Strang eventually received a revelation to move his community from Wisconsin to Beaver Island, Michigan before 1850. On Beaver Island, James Strang, much like Joseph Smith with the Council of 50, was ordained a king. This ambition, where Mormons attempted to take over the government, often led to conflict with surrounding communities. Tragedy and Scattering The Strangite community on Beaver Island ultimately faced a tragic end. In 1856, James Strang was assassinated on the dock by former Strangites. These individuals are referred to as “pseudos” or “pseudo-Mormons” by Strangites, distinguishing them from the LDS term “apostates”. Strang was shot. Though not killed immediately, he succumbed to his wounds about three weeks later. Following his assassination, the US Navy, which was patrolling Lake Michigan for pirates, scattered all the people on Beaver Island. They were dropped off in various ports, often penniless and without food or money, a “terrible tragedy” that led to the scattering of Strangites. Today, while the largest congregation is believed to be in Burlington, Wisconsin (which James Strang called Voree), smaller groups exist in New Mexico, Colorado, and potentially West Virginia. Planning Your Visit to Beaver Island For those intrigued by this unique historical site, Beaver Island is accessible by ferry or plane. Travel from Grand Rapids: My journey started at Gerald R. Ford Airport in Grand Rapids, Michigan. From there, it’s about a three-hour drive to Charlevoix, Michigan, the departure point for the ferry or small plane. Ferry vs. Plane: The ferry costs around $67 round trip, while a flight is about $150. I opted for the ferry to save money. The Emerald Isle is one of the ferry boats, and the ride takes about 2 hours. There are typically up to four ferry rides a day in the summer on the weekend, with just 1 during weekdays. Ferry Logistics: It’s advisable to arrive about an hour early. Boarding is generally easy. Parking for the ferry is located at the library, about 3 blocks from the dock. You can bring a car on the ferry for an additional cost, or rent golf carts on the island, which measures about 6 miles by 12 miles. Island Experience: Beaver Island is noted for its strong Irish influence, with many Irish immigrants having settled there, reminding them of Ireland. The island is currently home to about 500-800 residents year-round. In the summer, the population balloons to about 4000. Visitors can take a 1.5-hour van tour of the island, which discusses James Strang, and there is even a “Strang hotel”. The seas can sometimes be rough, so a smooth day for travel is a plus. Beaver Island offers a rich blend of natural beauty and profound historical significance, providing a unique glimpse into a lesser-known chapter of American religious history. How many of you have gone to Beaver Island? Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.
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Jul 21, 2025 • 0sec

Should BYU Be Renamed Over Slavery? (Paul Reeve/Christopher Rich)

Should BYU be renamed Over Slavery? Many argue that BYU should be renamed since slavery was legalized in Utah? Bishop Abraham Smoot also owned slaves and his name is on the Smoot Administration Building. What do BYU alumni Paul Reeve & Christopher Rich think of this proposal? https://youtu.be/L3pHOIv6DIs Don’t miss our other conversations with Paul Reeve! https://gospeltangents.com/people/paul-reeve/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. What Do Critics Say? GT: Okay. Well, it’s only been out what, four days right now? Paul:  People are starting to actually get their copies, yes. So, I know there’s a peer review process because clearly, the public hasn’t had a chance to push back on you guys. But have you guys gotten any pushback on your book that you can share? Paul:  Well, I mean, there’s some skepticism on the interpretation of, is An Act in Relation to Service a form of gradual emancipation. Right? GT: Okay. Paul:  Oxford has anonymous peer reviewers. Right? And so, I think we had really good peer reviewers who pressed us on some of the claims that we made. And I think we refined our arguments as a result. so I think what is published is more refined than the original draft. And we simply acknowledge they removed 18 words that we believe would’ve passed on the condition of servitude to the next generation, but they don’t replace those 18 words with “therefore you can’t pass on the condition to the next generation,” positive language that would have said, “we’re not passing on the condition.” So it’s left up to us to infer that their intent was that the condition not pass on to the next generation. We actually offer readers a scan of the original draft of the bill where they cross out those 18 words. And then we provide our own transcript. right? So you can read for yourself the original version of the bill with those 18 words included and then with those 18 words removed. What do you think the intent was? If you take out the clause that would’ve passed on the condition to the next generation, we think that means the intent of lawmakers was that it not pass on, and therefore, that creates a gradual form of emancipation. But that’s open for interpretation. right? GT: Well. Paul:  They deliberately—well, we don’t know about deliberately. They draft the bill ambiguously and we don’t know if that’s because they’re just not great lawmakers, or if they’re doing it deliberately. GT: Well, and the question is, are we aware of any children born between say, 1852 and 1862 that slavery was passed onto them? Are you aware of that? Christopher: So, we tried to look at that, and there’s just not a whole lot of evidence. So, any of the children who were actually born in Utah, by 1862, if we use that as the basic end date, still would have been minors. So, they still would have been living with their parents in the homes of their masters. And we do find evidence that they are there. There is some evidence that some children were sold. Now, those children weren’t born in Utah. So, you can make the argument that the law didn’t cover them, but it was a very small number of children. By the 1860s, I think it was roughly 10. So, we try to make a case of, based on the language of the law, this is what should have happened, but we don’t know for sure what would have happened in practice had the law continued on for another 10, or 15, or 20 years. GT:  So it’s just too short of a timeframe. Paul: Correct. GT: Okay. Paul:  And we make the point that if you are a child, you arrive in Utah territory, you can die enslaved in Utah territory. Right? This only applied to those who would be born in Utah territory after arrival. GT: Right. Paul:  That’s how the law is written. So, if you’re born in 1852, you’re only 10 years old by 1862. You’re still living with your parents. And how do historians know what your legal status might have been? GT: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Any other pushback? Christopher: Over the years, there has been more pushback. When we first brought this idea forward… GT: I remember that session in San Antonio. Christopher: See, back in 2012, when we brought this idea up really for the first time in, we were GT: You got some serious pushback in MHA at San Antonio. Christopher: There was a lot of pushback against this. And that’s reasonable. I mean, these are hard ideas. They’re complicated ideas. I would say that as time has gone on, it has felt like more people are, even while there is pushback against individual parts of our analysis about the gradual emancipation and so forth. I think there has been a more openness to those ideas. At least that’s been my experience. Paul:  Well, I think people can read the evidence for themselves. So, we have released all of the documents, all of the speeches. GT: Give us the website. Paul:  So www.thisabominableslavery.org. And anyone can go there. They can read Brigham Young’s 5th of February 1852 speech for themselves, all of the documents related to, or most of the documents related to the book are freely available, publicly available, and with the cooperation of the Church History Department. So, people can read the evidence for themselves, and also understand that new evidence has come to light. Right? And so, the notion that Euro-Americans are included in this service bill is something new that prior scholars had missed. But the debate makes it clear that that’s what they’re talking about because they say that when they’re debating. Right? That’s a part of what they’re talking about. GT: Oh, wow. Paul:  And if you arrive indebted to the person that provided you passage to America, and you die before you pay it off, can your debt then be passed on to your children? That’s also part of what they’re debating. GT: Wow. Paul:  So they’re talking explicitly about Euro-Americans, right? , so prior scholars didn’t have access to that. Tight? GT: Thanks to LaJean. Big shout-out to LaJean. Paul:  Exactly. We think that, there’s evidence at least to support our claims, and there might be people who have questions one way or the other. But nonetheless, that’s what scholarship is. Right? You put it out into the public, and people respond. We think the evidence is there. Right? I think a part of the issue is people might think we’re saying slavery didn’t exist in Utah territory. We’re not saying that. We’re not saying that. We fully recognize enslaved people arrived July 22nd, 1847. Right? We talk about this legal effort and also acknowledge from the perspective of the enslaved… GT:  It didn’t make much difference. Christopher: It probably didn’t make much difference. Right? So we’re not denying any of that. And so, the way that the question might be asked was Utah a slave territory. Right? Utah is not a state through any of this. And the new evidence suggests that Brigham Young is really clear, for any application for statehood, will not be as a slave state. GT: That’s really interesting and important to know. Paul:  But everyone needs to remember Utah remains a territory through this period. It’s never a state. Okay? So as a territory, the law that is passed gives those who have enslaved people in Utah the ability to continue to hold them yet gives them some rights to protect the enslaved. GT: Elevates from slavery to servitude. Paul:  Yeah, yeah. But they’re not free. GT: Right. Paul:  But they’re not free. And we have this new, firm piece of evidence from the 1856 Constitutional Convention that the effort to apply explicitly as a slave state is soundly voted down. And Brigham Young supports that. He makes it clear. He’s upset with George A. Smith. George A. Smith is the only apostle who votes in favor of the proposal to send this to DC as a slave constitution. And Brigham Young finds out about it and calls George A. Smith on the carpet, says, “I’m not going to send you with this constitution if you’re in favor of slavery.” GT: Oh, wow. Paul: So we had Brigham Young’s interview with Horace Greeley in 1859 where he says, no. Utah won’t go into the union as a slave state. And some historians have argued, well, that’s Brigham Young just playing this public relations game. We have now his evidence from 1856, where he’s clear that he does not support an application as a slave state. Christopher: Well, and really, throughout this entire period, Brigham Young is remarkably consistent in his views toward slavery. While he does sometimes use ambiguous language, and we are very forthright that sometimes he uses ambiguous language, he is very clear that one person should not be able to own another as property. He believes that that is both legally and morally wrong. But the question is how do we deal legally with enslaved people now that they are here? And he’s trying to do this in a context of national controversy over slavery. He wants Deseret admitted to the union as a state, and the advice that he is receiving from many people, including Thomas Kane is you do not want to deal with this issue. Slavery could sink you. You don’t want to come out openly one way or the other. GT: Just be neutral. Christopher:  Be neutral, says it multiple times. At the same time, Brigham Young is trying to ensure that there is no split within the Latter-day Saint church and community over this question. In the 1830s and ‘40s, three major American denominations, the Baptists, the Presbyterians, and the Methodists, all split over the question of slavery. Brigham Young wants to ensure that that does not happen. So, Brigham Young seems to be walking on this tightrope where, on the one hand, he does not want to legalize chattel slavery in Utah. He does not want to hold people in property, but sees real problems with immediate abolition at the same time. And so, he’s trying to come up with this more moderate solution to the problem. Paul:  And Orson Pratt is pushing for a free labor ethic at the same time. Right? And he’s also a product of this 19th century culture. And one of the chapters, we just walk readers through this debate between Orson Pratt and Brigham Young. GT: Yeah. Paul:  And Orson Pratt, obviously is pushing forward, and Brigham Young is reaching back. And we think Orson Pratt, or at least I’ll speak for myself. Orson Pratt has the better argument here. Right? Right? He has made a free labor argument and history has been on his side. Right? And we lay that out in that chapter: what are the ramifications of these two arguments as these two men represent these forces that are at play in the broader American nation? And remember that question that Utah is grappling with: can human beings be held as property? It is a question that the nation itself cannot solve. And it devolves into civil war in 1861 and costs the nation 600,000 lives. And we’re simply placing Utah territory within that context, that broader national context. 1850s is just this decade of sectional divide where the nation is straining the fabric of union to the point that we start killing each other over that question. GT: Very good. That’s a somber note to end on. But was there anything we missed? Paul: I think we covered most of it. GT: Well, I only had it for about three or four days. I got through three chapters. But, it’s a great book from three chapters I’ve read so far have been great. And so, I would recommend it to everybody. Why don’t you show them to us again? Who do you got on the cover there? It looks like I recognize a few people. Paul:  So Brigham Young. I mean, we all, Brigham Young and Orson Pratt on either side, representing the debate. And then in the middle is Sally Young Kanosh and Green Flake. So we also then tried to represent Native American and African-American enslaved. GT: Okay. Paul:  the two pictures here, we chose as close to what they may have looked like in 1852. GT: Oh, really? Paul:  So this picture is taken roughly around 1850. And this one, I think 1853. I can’t remember for sure, of Orson Pratt. So, that was our intent was to try to find an 1850s  image of both men. GT: Oh, that’s very good. Was Orson Pratt the guy that argued, changing topics slightly, against Adam-God and Brigham Young? Paul:  Correct. GT: And so, Orson, he was supposed to be the prophet, but he lost his seniority. Right? Paul:  Correct. He was dropped from the Quorum over his objection to polygamy, interestingly enough. GT: Oh, wow. And then he announced it. Paul:  Right. And so, at the end of 1852, he’s the one that Brigham Young turns to publicly announce the practice of polygamy. But yeah, those two butt heads on several occasions. So, remember, when Brigham Young tries to reconstitute the First Presidency at Winter Quarters, Orson Pratt originally objects. GT: Oh, yeah. Paul:  So they butt heads there. Then they’re butting heads in 1852 in the legislative session. And then they don’t agree theologically over the Adam-God theory that Brigham Young is proposing, and Orson Pratt doesn’t buy that. GT: Things were much more lively back then. Paul:  They were, yeah. And people were more [argumentative.] Christopher: in the days before correlation. Paul:  Yes. They were more open about their disagreements, too. Right? GT: Yeah. Paul:  Orson Pratt was very open about his disagreements with Brigham Young. Right? They are standing up to each other in the legislative session. Christopher: But also they would have these disagreements, and then come back together again for different purposes. So, I mean, there are times when Brigham is very harsh towards Orson Pratt, as he could be harsh towards other people as well. Yet, he goes to Orson Pratt to discuss polygamy. Paul:  Yeah. Christopher: Like everything else, these were complicated relationships. Paul:  And I think that’s also interesting that Orson Pratt then becomes a defender of polygamy, right? He changes from his original abhorrence and becomes a defender of polygamy for the rest of his life. Interestingly, there’s only a one-off in terms of his defense of the racial priesthood restriction and never returns to it. Right? So it’s an interesting comparison. It makes me wonder. Right? I wish there was more evidence, but why did he do that 1853 newspaper article and never return to it? I don’t think he was convinced himself of the racial restrictions. He never comes back to defending it. And when he becomes convinced about polygamy, he defends it for the rest of his life. GT: Hmm. That’s interesting. Paul:  Yeah.         Should BYU be Renamed? GT: So I have one more question, especially since you’re both BYU grads. Paul:  Uh-oh. GT: You know where this is going. There’s been some debate about a couple of things: whether BYU should be renamed, because Brigham Young supported slavery, which we’ve talked about. But also, we didn’t spend a lot of time on Abraham Smoot. There’s the Abraham Smoot Administration Building. People think it should be renamed. He was a bishop. He had slaves. What do you think of that controversy? Paul:  Well, I spoke at the BYU slavery conference. So there’s a group at BYU who studied BYU’s connection to slavery. Right? I think at the very least, just a plaque or some sort of public acknowledgement at the Smoot building that would acknowledge his three enslaved people: Tom, Jerry, and Sally. Just [make] an acknowledgement of them and their lives could go a long way in just being more open about his connection to enslaved people. GT: Okay. So you’re not in favor of renaming either the building or the university? Paul:  Oh, I didn’t say that. GT: Okay. Paul:  You’re trying to pin me down. I don’t have any say whatsoever at all in terms of those questions. GT: You have an opinion though. Paul:  Well, I don’t foresee any reasonable effort at changing the name of the university. I think it will always be Brigham Young University. What I understand on the campus is that buildings no longer will have, will no longer be named after people. GT: Oh. LaVell Edwards Stadium? Paul:  Buildings will no longer be named after people. And LaVell Edwards Stadium already exists, and all of the named buildings already exist. But future buildings are not going to be named after people. GT: Is it because of this reason? I mean, I guess you’re speculating here. Because, oh, we’re going to always find dirt on somebody. So, somebody’s going to offend something. Paul:  Yeah, I don’t know. You’d have to ask BYU. But I think there are things they can do. So, the BYU Slavery Reconciliation Project is modeled after slavery reconciliation projects that have happened at other universities. So, University of Virginia has a large memorial to enslaved people. Right? Georgetown has gone through a reconciliation process. So, I think there are things that they could do that would acknowledge the enslaved people. If they’re going to leave Abraham Smoot on the administration building, that’s their decision. There are things they could do that would also acknowledge the enslaved people of Abraham Smoot. Christopher: These have happened at other campuses across the nation where campuses have studied their own connections to the enslaved past and come up with ways that they are openly acknowledging them. And I’m not sure that BYU has come up with a firm proposal. I spoke at the slavery conference about the debate between Orson Pratt and Brigham Young. GT: Okay. Yeah. I wish I’d have known about that. There are too many conferences. Paul:  Yeah. GT: Chris, what’s your perspective on Smoot and Brigham Young? Christopher: My hope is that people will be able to come away, hopefully, after reading the book, understanding various perspectives. And people will be able to come up with their own conclusions. That’s one of the things why we wanted to have our research open to the public on the website is so that people could read through this for themselves. We think we put forward the best interpretation of what happened in the ‘52 legislature from a variety of different perspectives. And my hope is that regardless of what happens anywhere else, is that people will be able to look at these individuals as people that were facing significant problems and whether or not we agree with the conclusions that they came to, to try and be able to understand where they were coming from, both from those people who are in the legislature and from those people who were held in service and to whom these laws applied. GT: Should the Smoot Building be renamed? I’m not going to let you off the hook there. You can say no comment or whatever. Christopher: No comment. GT: Okay. All right. Well, Dr. Chris, or soon-to-be Dr. Chris. Christopher: Almost, almost. PhD candidate. GT: and Dr. Paul Reeve, Thank you so much for being here on Gospel Tangents. And go buy the book if you don’t have it. It should sell out just like Matt Harris’s book did. Paul:  Thank you. Christopher: Thank you. GT: Help sell it out. All right. Thanks again for being here on Gospel Tangents. Paul:  Thanks. Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.
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Jul 19, 2025 • 28sec

Strangite Priesthood-Beaver Island Preview Gary Weber (5 of 6)

Recently, I had the fascinating opportunity to delve into the beliefs practices, and Strangite priesthood views with Gary Weber of the Strangite Church, a lesser-known branch of Mormonism. This discussion sheds light on many intriguing aspects of their faith, highlighting both commonalities and distinct differences from the more widely known LDS (Latter-day Saint) Church. https://youtu.be/GvLjkF8kqms Understanding Strangite Priesthood: A Core Difference One of the most significant distinctions discussed was the Strangite understanding of the priesthood and its associated “keys.” While the Melchizedek priesthood holds specific keys related to office, it does not encompass all keys. According to Gary Weber, the Melchizedek priesthood cannot evolve to ordain a prophet. Instead, they believe a prophet can only be ordained by an angel, as was the case for Moses, Joseph Smith, and James J. Strang. The fundamental principle here is that “the lesser cannot ordain the greater”. This leads to a critical differentiation of priesthood keys: Keys of Mysteries and Revelations: These keys are associated only with the prophet-lawgiver and can only be held by one person at a time. Gary Weber states that James J. Strang could not have been ordained by angels while Joseph Smith was alive but was ordained the moment Joseph Smith died. Keys of the Kingdom: These keys can be possessed by many people, as seen with the twelve apostles who were given these keys to spread the gospel to nations. They can also confer these keys to others, with hundreds potentially holding them. Gary noted that many members of the LDS Church often don’t understand this distinction between the two types of keys. Sacrament Practices: Purity and Purpose The Strangite Church observes the sacrament once a month, rather than weekly like the LDS Church. Their reasoning is that frequent observance could make it “mundane” and cause it to “lose its specialness and sacredness”. The elements used for the sacrament also have specific requirements: Juice: Any edible fresh fruit juice is acceptable, as stated in their book of law under the Eucharist. Examples include orange juice, which was used when Gary grew up in Artesia, or fresh processed grape juice from their vineyard. If no juice is available, water can be used, emphasizing the focus on one’s “eye singleness to God” and the purpose of remembering Christ’s blood. Typically Strangites use some sort of fresh juice (not store-bought) for the sacrament. This assures the juice has not been adulterated. Bread: Must be made of any grain, prepared by the members themselves, not store-bought. This is to ensure its purity and prevent it from being “adulterated”. Other Doctrines and Practices: Baptism: They baptize at age eight, aligning with the LDS Church, based on the Doctrine and Covenants and a belief that children at this age have scientifically reached a maturity level to understand right from wrong. Baptism can occur in a church font or natural bodies of water like the White River, depending on personal preference. Priesthood Recognition: The Strangite Church does not recognize the priesthood of other churches, including the LDS priesthood, as they trace their priesthood lineage back through Joseph Smith and James J. Strang. Communion: They practice a closed communion, meaning it is only served to those who have been baptized, taken upon Christ’s name, and are deemed worthy, as stated in the Book of Mormon by Jesus to the Nephites. Missionary Work: Unlike the door-to-door approach of many LDS missionaries, Strangites engage in a more limited form of proselytization. They will travel to baptize individuals with whom they’ve corresponded and who show genuine interest, sometimes over many months. Interestingly, Gary expressed that the wider recognition of the “Mormon” name, largely due to the LDS Church’s efforts, has made it easier for Strangites to teach Mormonism, viewing it as part of God’s plan. Trinity and Godhead: The Strangite Church does not believe in the Trinity. Their belief in the Godhead is described as similar to the LDS understanding, though Gary noted he wasn’t “100% sure if it’s the same”. Eternal Progression: A key distinction is their rejection of eternal progression, meaning they do not believe humans can become like God. Jesus’ Birth: Gary mentioned their belief that Jesus was the biological son of Joseph and Mary, rejecting the concept of a virgin birth entirely. They believe Jesus is “the only Begotten” because he was the only one raised from the dead by God. Sealings: They do believe in eternal sealings for the living, with Gary stating he was sealed to his wife eternally. However, these ceremonies are likely very different from LDS temple ceremonies, and they do not perform sealings for the dead. Beaver Island: A Historical Footprint Fades The conversation also touched upon Beaver Island, a significant historical site for Strangites. Currently, there is very little physical evidence of the Strangite presence on the island; “you would never know that Mormons were ever there,” Gary remarked. There are hardly any paved roads, mostly dirt, and the island is primarily a tourist and vacation spot. However, some historical markers remain, such as a gravel road still known as “King’s Highway,” named after King James Strang. Historically, Beaver Island was where important practices like baptism for the dead took place at “Font Lake”. James J. Strang and other elders also engaged in missionary work with the local Native Americans, who reportedly loved Strang and called him “father”. Unfortunately, much of the history from that period, including records of baptisms among the Indians, was lost when the Strangites were driven off the island. In our next episode, I’ll give a tour of Beaver Island. What are your thoughts?
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Jul 16, 2025 • 23min

Strangite Women Hold Priesthood, Saturday Worship (Gary Weber 4 of 6)

Welcome to an exploration of one of the most distinctive branches of Mormonism: the Strangite Church. We will discuss Strangite women’s role in priesthood. While many are familiar with the larger Latter-day Saint movements, the Strangites offer a fascinating glimpse into different interpretations and practices rooted in early Restorationism. Based primarily in Burlington, Wisconsin, the Strangite Church has a rich history, unique theological perspectives, and surprising elements that set it apart. https://youtu.be/61quRH-_glI Resilient Community/Promised Refuge According to the revelations of James J. Strang, Voree was prophesied to be a refuge for the people, where “the Gentiles would treat you with kindness”. Remarkably, the Strangites in Voree have never experienced the persecution that other Mormon settlements faced in places like Palmyra, Kirtland, Independence, or Nauvoo. This consistent respect and kind treatment from the wider community is seen by Strangites as a powerful sign that James A. Strang’s revelations were true. Furthermore, families living there have prospered, owning homes and achieving financial stability, which they believe is a testament to the blessings promised for obedience to God. The congregation has seen periods of challenge and renewal. A spiritual movement led others to move to Voree, and gradually the church began to build up again. While the primary congregation is in Burlington, members also reside in various states, including Texas, Colorado, New Mexico, Florida, Michigan, and Minnesota, often attending services via Zoom. Women in the Aaronic Priesthood Perhaps one of the most surprising and progressive aspects of the Strangite Church is its stance on women and the priesthood. Unlike many other Restorationist faiths, the Strangite Church ordains women to the Aaronic priesthood, specifically to the office of teacher. They believe that Emma Smith herself was the first teacher. These women teachers play an active and vital role in church services. They are permitted to lead meetings, often doing so in pairs, each taking half of the Sabbath service. While women hold the office of teacher, they are not ordained as deaconesses; deacons are exclusively boys. Priesthood ordination in the Strangite Church is not tied to age or seen as a “rite of passage.” Instead, individuals are called when a priesthood member receives inspiration that a particular person is ready and begins to excel. The Strangite priesthood structure includes: Melchizedek Priesthood: Elders and High Priests. Aaronic Priesthood: Priests, Teachers (including women), and Deacons. There are no Seventies currently, and they believe a prophet is needed to structure other offices. The leadership of the church has continued through a series of appointments. Lorenzo Hickey ordained Wingfield Watson as the head of the church and a high priest, who then served until his passing around 1920. Following Watson, subsequent presiding high priests have been appointed by their predecessors. Currently, David Flanders serves as the presiding high priest, a role of duty and responsibility to manage affairs, but not one that grants him higher authority than other high priests. Saturday Worship and the Nature of Christ A distinct practice of the Strangite Church is their worship on Saturday, the Sabbath day. This is based on their belief that God sanctified the seventh day during creation. They contend that the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday to honor the sun god and appease pagans, aiming to unite Christians and pagans into a single universal church. Their theological views also extend to the nature of Christ. The Strangite Church believes that Jesus was 100% mortal, and that Joseph was his biological father. This belief is critical to their understanding of Christ’s lineage, as Joseph was of the tribe of Judah, which connects Jesus directly to the covenant line of Abraham and King David through the male seed. They suggest that the passage in the King James Bible detailing Jesus’s birth was an addition by Catholics. For them, Jesus being fully mortal and “made under the law” means he was truly tempted and tried as humans are, allowing him to sympathize with and judge humanity. His perfect, sinless life as a mortal serves as an example, demonstrating that humans have “no excuse for our sins”. Joseph Smith’s Lectures on Faith are cited as supporting this view of Jesus’s mortality. The Strangite Church also rejects the “Adam-God” theology and views the King Follett sermon as having been tampered with. Importantly, they have never had a priesthood ban on black members, asserting that God is “not a respecter of persons” and welcomes everyone regardless of color or wealth. They have had black priesthood members dating back to Joseph Smith’s and James Strang’s times, including a Brother Q. Walker Lewis. Comprehensive Scriptural Canon The Strangite Church embraces a broad collection of scriptures, which includes: The Bible, with a preference for Joseph Smith’s inspired version. The Book of Mormon. The Pearl of Great Price (the LDS version). The Book of the Law of the Lord. The Revelations of James, which serve as their equivalent of the Doctrine and Covenants. The Voree Record (or Voree Plates), from which the name of their settlement, Voree, originates. The Lectures on Faith are considered scripture. They also consider journal entries from publications like Times and Seasons and Evening and Morning Stars that were printed during Joseph Smith’s lifetime to be scripture, as he was present to verify their content. Anything printed after Joseph Smith’s death is not considered scripture by them, although they acknowledge the historical truth of events like his martyrdom. They believe that some teachings introduced by Brigham Young, after Joseph Smith’s death, deviated from Joseph’s original doctrines. Prophecies & Look Towards the Future The Strangites also hold unique prophecies, such as the belief that Daniel from the Bible will stand on the “Hill of Promise” in the last days, before Christ’s return, to teach the people, fulfilling the biblical instruction for Daniel to “stand in thy lot”. They believe that the spirit of God was withdrawn from the United States due to the murders of Joseph Smith and James J. Strang, and the persecution and expulsion of the saints from their lands. This is why, they feel, it’s currently difficult to proselytize, as “people just don’t really care about religion” today. However, they anticipate a future time, before the next prophet comes, when God’s spirit will go forth, and “hunters and fishers” will seek out the righteous and preach to the House of Israel, rejoining them to the covenant.
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Jul 15, 2025 • 21min

Strangite Mormon Beliefs on Polygamy, Baptism for the Dead & More (Gary Weber 3 of 6)

Gary Weber, a member of the Strangite Church, shared unique insights into their doctrines, including polygamy, baptism for the dead, and their distinctive interpretation of the “stick of Judah” prophecy. https://youtu.be/_e1Zm605gtE   0:00 Distinctive Stance on Polygamy  The Strangite Church believes that polygamy is an eternal principle and can be acceptable to God if commanded by Him, primarily “to build up seed unto [His] name,” not for lustful purposes. This aligns with the Book of Jacob in the Book of Mormon, which states one should have only one wife “unless I command you otherwise.” Historical figures like Abraham are cited as examples of righteous men who practiced it when commanded.  Regarding their founder, James Strang, initially, he was against polygamy. However, he later embraced it, reportedly through inspiration from God on Beaver Island, allowing it as part of the “Book of the Law of the Lord.” It’s notable that its practice was limited, with perhaps only five families out of thousands practicing it due to financial constraints and the crucial requirement that the wife must not object.  Currently, the Strangite Church does not practice polygamy. This is primarily because they believe in keeping the laws of the land, and polygamy is against the law. They hold that God would not put people in a position to break the law and go to jail. Gary Weber noted that Joseph Smith also said, “We believe in keeping the laws of the land.” Furthermore, they believe that only a prophet can “usher in a dispensation for polygamy.” Interestingly, Gary mentioned that Joseph Smith allegedly cut off a Mr. Brown from the church for practicing and teaching polygamy three months before his death, suggesting an inconsistency in Joseph Smith’s own stated position if he himself practiced it.  5:17 Baptism for the Dead  Another unique doctrine discussed is baptism for the dead, which the Strangites believe requires a prophet to “usher in a dispensation” and obtain “the keys from Elijah.” They assert that both Joseph Smith and James A. Strang received these keys and therefore practiced it. The “Book of the Law of the Lord” includes a section on the doctrine of baptism for the dead, which is described as identical to the information Joseph Smith put out in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants.  A significant difference between the Strangite practice and that of the Utah Mormons (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) is that the Strangites believe that the sex of the person does not matter; a woman could be baptized for her deceased father if he hadn’t been baptized. In contrast, the Utah church generally practices that women baptize for women and men for men.  However, the Strangite Church does not currently practice baptism for the dead. The reason, similar to polygamy, is the absence of a living prophet on the earth.  8:39 Waiting for the Prophet of the “Stick of Judah”  The Strangite Church has a distinct eschatological belief tied to a prophecy in Genesis 49, where Jacob blesses his 12 sons. When speaking of Judah, it states, “the lawgiver shall not depart between the feet of Judah.” They interpret this to mean that after Joseph Smith, who they consider the prophet of the “stick of Ephraim,” there was to be a prophet from the tribe of Judah who would “bring forth the book of the law.”  This next prophet is expected to remain in the house of Judah, from the tribe of King David, and will take the gospel to the house of Israel. The Strangite Church is currently waiting for this prophet to come forth, as they believe there was meant to be an “indirect period of time” after James Strang, before the “house of Israel’s dispensation to the Jews” began.  13:29 James Strang’s Life & Beaver Island Community  James Strang lived in the Voree/Burlington area, Wisconsin, from about 1842 until approximately 1849 or 1850. He then moved his community to Beaver Island around 1850, remaining there until 1856 when he was killed.  Strang held significant authority on Beaver Island, serving as both mayor and “king” through his priesthood, though still under Michigan’s jurisdiction. His leadership led to conflict with other islanders. Reasons for the animosity included:  Prohibition on the sale of alcohol to both Indians and Saints on Beaver Island. Economic competition from the Strangites, who were selling timber from Beaver Island, taking trade away from other islanders on Lake Michigan. James Strang was shot on the pier in Beaver Island in 1856 and died a few weeks later at his parents’ house in Voree. Despite having time, he chose not to call a successor, as it was not believed to be the appointed time for the next prophet to come forth. After his death, the Strangite community on Beaver Island scattered, with members returning to various family homes in Illinois, Iowa, and Wisconsin, notably establishing a significant branch in Black River Falls, Wisconsin.  18:52 Lost Temple and Church Leadership Today  James Strang reportedly laid the cornerstone for a temple near the White River. However, the exact location of this temple site has since been lost over time, as it was eventually torn down “by the Gentiles.” The temple was never finished. While there have been claims about Strang organizing an “Order of the Illuminati” with Masonic influences, Gary Weber stated there’s no definitive proof from Strang’s own writings. Many early Mormons, including Joseph Smith and James Strang, were Masons. Many of the day had the objective to keep Catholic influence out of politics.  Following James Strang’s death, the Strangite Church faced a challenge in leadership succession. They believe that only a prophet, through revelation, can call an apostle, and that “the lesser cannot bless the greater or ordain the greater.” Consequently, as their original apostles died out, they could not “regenerate themselves” without a prophet. As such, the Strangite Church is now led by high priests and elders.  In an interesting note on priesthood, the Strangite Church ordains women to an office within the Aaronic priesthood: Teacher. They believe that Emma Smith, Joseph Smith’s wife, was the first teacher. However, women holding these offices cannot ordain or baptize.  What are your thoughts? 
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Jul 10, 2025 • 22min

Meet a Strangite Mormon (Gary Weber 2 of 6)

It’s always fun to talk to someone from the Strangite Church, officially known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite) Based in Burlington, Wisconsin, this branch of the Latter-day Saint movement offers a distinctive perspective on the succession of Joseph Smith and the ongoing divine restoration. https://youtu.be/RUL8rF0hb4U Strangite Genesis in Voree The current headquarters of the Strangite Church is Burlington, Wisconsin. Interestingly, the area holds historical significance with multiple names. It was originally called Foxville. While today it’s known as Burlington, a specific area on the west side of town where the Mormon settlement was located was called Voree by the early Strangites, a name associated with the significant “Voree record”. James J. Strang led his followers to this location, believing God had instructed them to move from Nauvoo. James Strang was dispatched to the Burlington area by Joseph Smith, having been baptized and made an elder by Smith himself. Strang wrote back to Joseph Smith, suggesting Voree would be a “wonderful place for a gathering” due to its rich resources like fish, fresh water, great farmland, and good soil near the Great Lakes. Initially, Joseph Smith was hesitant, but after discussion with Hyrum Smith and a subsequent spiritual revelation, he concluded that Voree was indeed a good place for the Saints. James J. Strang: Joseph Smith’s Chosen Successor? The Strangite Church believes that James J. Strang was divinely appointed as Joseph Smith’s successor. This belief is rooted in two pivotal events: The Letter of Appointment: Joseph Smith penned a letter to James A. Strang, officially appointing him as his successor. This original letter is now preserved at Yale University in the Beineke Library, with copies available for members. The Angelic Ordination: On the very day Joseph Smith was assassinated, June 27, 1844, angels appeared to James J. Strang and ordained him a prophet. These were believed to be the same angels who ordained Joseph Smith – Peter, James, and John. Strang was aware of Joseph’s death through this angelic visitation even before news arrived from Nauvoo. Furthermore, it’s believed that Jesus also anointed Strang as the King of Israel for the gentile dispensation, an ordination attributed to his lineage from the royal line of King David. Sacred Texts and Prophetic Interpretations The Strangite Church embraces a unique canon of scripture beyond what is common in other Latter-day Saint traditions: The Voree Plates: These ancient plates were revealed to James Strang through a vision from the angel Moroni, known as the Hill of Promise. Strang gathered leading citizens to witness their excavation from beneath a tree, about four feet down, where roots had grown around them. The plates, housed in an earthen case, crumbled upon exposure to air due to their age. Witnesses, including a newspaper reporter from Kenosha, confirmed the ancient nature of the record and that the site had been undisturbed. Strang translated them using the Urim and Thummim given to him by the angel Moroni, much like Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon. The Voree Plates provide a brief history of a people who were “no more” and, most notably, contained a pictorial drawing depicting the true structure of the priesthood, including the prophet lawgiver, two viceroys, twelve apostles, high priests, and seventies. These plates were translated around 1844. The Book of the Law: This significant text is believed to be the “stick of Judah” spoken of in Ezekiel 37. According to Strangite belief, Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon (the stick of Ephraim), but was instructed not to touch the sealed record, which was the Book of the Law, meant for a future prophet. James J. Strang, being of the tribe of Judah with Jewish ancestry, translated the Book of the Law after receiving the plates of Laban from the angel Moroni. Parts of the book were translated from these plates using the Urim and Thummim, while other sections comprise articles written by Strang himself on various gospel topics. Unlike some other Latter-day Saints who identify the Bible as the stick of Judah, Strangites believe the Book of the Law fulfills this prophecy because it was written by a man of the tribe of Judah. Strang’s background as a lawyer and legislator known for writing excellent laws in Michigan further aligns with his role as a “lawgiver”. Other Accepted Texts: The Strangites also believe in the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, and the Book of Moses. For the Doctrine and Covenants, they adhere to the 1844 edition established by Joseph Smith. While they maintain good relations with the RLDS (Community of Christ) Church, they primarily use the Salt Lake City (LDS) 1974 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. Distinctive Beliefs and Relations with Other Latter-day Saints The Strangite Church identifies as “Mormons” and shares a similar church name with other Latter-day Saint groups. However, there are key distinctions: Interpretation of the “Stick of Judah”: As noted, they believe the Book of the Law, translated by James Strang, is the “stick of Judah,” not the Bible, which was written by many individuals from various tribes. Polygamy: While James Strang did practice polygamy, leading to some members leaving for the RLDS Church or Utah, the Strangites hold that polygamy can only be ushered in by a prophet through divine dispensation. They also believe God would not command something that would lead people to break the law and face imprisonment. Future Prophecy: They interpret Ezekiel 37 and Isaiah 11 to mean that a future prophet from the House of Judah, greater than Moses, will gather the Israelites from the four corners of the earth, including American Indians and the lost ten tribes, establishing a new dispensation. The Strangite Church, through its unique history, prophetic succession, and scriptural interpretations, offers a rich and distinctive chapter in the broader Latter-day Saint narrative. Are you familiar with them? Have you seen our other interviews with Bill Shepard, Vickie Speek, and Kyle Beshears on Strangites?
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Jul 8, 2025 • 1h 10min

Remembering Lynne Whitesides

This is a re-broadcast of my 2023 interview with Lynne Whitesides. She passed away from pneumonia/leukemia on July 7, 2025. We miss her. Lynne Whitesides was the first person punished in the September Six. She shares her story of why she wasn’t excommunicated, who was involved, and where she is on her spiritual journey. Check out our conversation… https://youtu.be/thV_CGqy3jY Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. First to Get Punished Interview GT  00:34  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I’m so excited to have one of the original members of the September Six. Could you go ahead and tell us who you are and where we are? Lynne  00:45  I am Lynne Whitesides, and I was the first of the September Six. GT  00:49  Okay. Lynne  00:50  We are at the Utah Valley University in Provo. GT  00:56  Right, Orem, actually. Lynne  00:57  Are we in Provo? We’re in Orem. GT  01:00  Well, very good. I’ve been doing this podcast for eight years now. And this is our first time talking. You’re hard to track down. Lynne  01:11  I don’t know. I’m glad to be here. GT  01:14  Well, thanks. Well, as we look back on this, can you talk about the events? I don’t know how far back it goes. Does it go back to the 80s? Or was it just really concentrated in the early 90s, that led you into trouble with Church authorities? Lynne  01:30  Well, I can go back a little farther, even in my own [story.] But I don’t know that we want to go there. I’ll start with from when I moved from Chicago to Salt Lake City. And when I did that, my friend, Lorie Stromberg; do you know Lorie? GT  01:48  A little bit. We’re Facebook friends. Lynne  01:50  Lorie said, “Why don’t you volunteer for Sunstone?” And I had three little kids and my husband was doing his residency and he had gotten his residency here in Salt Lake. And I so I went down, and I volunteered to just be one of the people who helps at Sunstone. And at the end of that symposium, so that was ’84, or something like that. GT  02:12  Okay. Lynne  02:13  Then, I think Marti Bradley had a talk with Elbert Peck and said, “We think Lynne should be the new chair of the symposium.” So, they invited me to be the chair of the symposium for the next year, which I did. I mean, I did it for four years. So whatever the four years were. GT  02:30  So, you were the leader of Sunstone? Lynne  02:31  I was the chair of the symposium. Elbert was the editor and Daniel Rector was the publisher. And then there are [others.] At the time, her name was Marti Esplin and now her name is Marti Ashby now. She was an editor. There was a really cool crew that worked there, Connie Disney. GT  02:49  So, this is after Peggy Fletcher’s Stack. Lynne  02:51  Yes, just right after when Elbert took over. And it was so much fun working with Elbert and Daniel. Because I had no idea how to pull a Symposium together. But Elbert, in particular, was so gracious and helpful and just kind of showed me the ropes. And by the time I was done [with] four years, I could run a symposium, so it was great. GT  03:16  Well, it sounds like Sunstone and correct me if I’m wrong. It seems like it used to be a magazine. And it seems like Peggy was trying to get people to write for the magazine. And she started the symposium and now the symposium is the whole thing. Lynne  03:31  Yeah. GT  03:31  There’s not that many people that read the magazine anymore. Lynne  03:33  I don’t even know. I don’t follow the magazine anymore at all. I haven’t been to the symposium for years, since 10 years after, and then this year. Because I have been invited to speak. But, those four years were really kind of heady because Peggy, that’s what she was trying to do. And we were getting a lot of professors from BYU and the University of Utah, but also just all kinds of really interesting people. GT  04:01  Mark Hofmann would have been one of those people. Lynne  04:03  Yeah, that was the year before I took it over. GT  04:07  Okay. That was the year he had made a big discovery that he announced at Sunstone, wasn’t it? Lynne  04:13  I believe it was either two or one year before, because Steve Christensen was part of Sunstone, at the time, too. And, and I had just met Steve. And then all that stuff happened with Hofmann. GT  04:29  Yeah, well, Steve was killed in ’87, I believe.[1] Right? Lynne  04:32  Right. And by ’87, I was doing the symposium. I was chairing the symposium, 1987-88-89. So four years. GT  04:38  Did you know Steve pretty well? Lynne  04:40  No, I was just getting to know him a little bit. And then that happened. Yeah. GT  04:43  That’s terrible. It was a terrible thing. So you didn’t really know Mark Hofmann, either. Lynne  04:47  No, not at all. I mean, I probably went to his talk or something. I had lived in Salt Lake. Then, I moved to Mexico for two years because my husband did two years of med school in Guadalajara, then went to Chicago for two years. And I had gone to Sunstone a bunch before then and then didn’t during those four years, and that’s when all that was going on. Then [we] moved from Chicago to Salt Lake City. And that’s when I started working for them. So you see, I was in and out. GT  05:19  Okay. And so you led Sunstone from like, ’85 to ’89 or so? Lynne  05:26  Yeah, something like that. I wish I knew. I should have checked before I got here. But, yeah, I didn’t lead Sunstone, but I chaired the symposium. GT  05:34  Okay. Because you were the Lindsay Hansen Park of the day, then. Right? Lynne  05:39  I think so. But working so closely with Elbert and Dan was super. I mean, they had so much input. GT  05:51  Dan Wotherspoon. Lynne  05:52  No, Dan Rector. GT  05:54  Oh, Dan Rector. Lynne  05:54  Dan Rector knew a lot of people because of his dad, Hartmon Rector. He was the publisher, at the time. GT  06:02  He [Hartman] was a former general authority. Lynne  06:03  Yeah. Well, Hartman was [a general authority] at the time. GT  06:06  Oh at the time? Lynne  06:06  Yeah. And then Dan knew a lot of [people.] He knew Paul Dunn. He actually knew what was going on with Paul Dunn and he confronted Paul Dunn. GT  06:17  Oh. Lynne  06:18  That was an interesting story if you want to hear it. GT  06:20  We haven’t gone into the Paul Dunn story. Lynne  06:21  Yeah, we don’t need to. GT  06:22  This is great. We do tangents here. Lynne  06:24  But we can. GT  06:26  Give them a little taste of Paul Dunn. I really want to get Lynn Packer, because he’s written a book on Paul Dunn. Lynne  06:30  Oh, okay. So [here is] what happened. I think Lynn was part of this. I don’t know how much I knew Lynn. But I knew of him because we were doing all this stuff. So, we had begun to understand (Daniel in particular) that a lot of the stories Paul Dunn was telling were not true. GT  06:47  And Paul Dunn was a former general authority. Lynne  06:48  Yeah, he was a general authority. And he was the folksy general authority that everybody loved. GT  06:52  He was a wonderful speaker. Lynne  06:54  {He had] great stories. He talked about being in a foxhole and holding his best friend while he died. GT  07:01  And he was a minor league baseball player. Lynne  07:02  And he was a minor league baseball player. So we found out the name of his best friend who died. Daniel found him and said, “Do you know Paul Dunn?” And he said, “Yes.” And he said, “Were you in a foxhole with him?” Lynne  07:14  And he said, “That never happened.” GT  07:17  “And you’re still alive.” Lynne  07:18  Yeah, “You’re still alive.” And I remember the story. If I can remember it correctly. Dan was at the Church Office Building. He was in an elevator with Paul Dunn and said to Paul, “Look. We know this is going on.” Paul was doing a lot of business bad stuff, too. But he said, “We know this is happening.” Lynne  07:33  And Paul Dunn basically said, “Well, it was wasn’t an actual story. It was a metaphor kind of thing.” Lynne  07:39  And Dan was like, “Yeah, I don’t think so.” So, all of that was going on. I mean, it was an interesting time with Hofmann, and then Packer, I mean, Dunn. And then, Packer being so angry and mean and going after anybody that didn’t agree with him. GT  07:55  Boyd Packer. Lynne  07:56  Yeah. Boyd. GT  07:56  Yeah. I think Lynn Packer and Boyd [are related.] Boyd is Lynn’s uncle, I believe. Lynne  08:01  I think so, too. Yeah. So, all that was going on. And I remember Dan would keep trying to get Paul Dunn a chance. “Look. Why don’t you come clean? And then we won’t have to do this.” But he didn’t. And then I can’t remember who broke the story. It might have been Sunstone. But it was so long ago. GT  08:19  It was probably Lynn Packer. Lynne  08:20  But he was talking to us. There was some kind of connection. And it came out. But Dan tried to give Paul an opportunity to come clean. Yeah. And then they made him emeritus instead of doing anything else. GT  08:34  They retired him. Lynne  08:35  Yeah, they retired him. You’d lied. Go away. GT  08:40  Wow, you had quite the experiences there with Sunstone. Lynne  08:43  Oh, it’s really [great.] It was really fun and exciting. I loved going to work. It was really great. Yeah. GT  08:50  Was that like a full time job for you? Lynne  08:52  It was full time, really, in the summer. But there was a lot of work before: preparation, getting papers, sending out the call, deciding which papers we wanted to do, and then doing all the stuff. Because at that time, we had maybe 1000 people coming, and we had several hundred concurrent sessions. I mean, it was a really interesting time because everyone wanted to be part of it. And then we would always bring in some sort of big name, outside of Mormonism, religious scholar. Those were fun, too. We brought in some really great guys and women, and it was fun to meet them and hang out with them. GT  09:32  They still do that, too, today. Lynne  09:33  They do. I don’t know what they do today. But at the time, that was part of the real fun for me was meeting some of those people. GT  09:42  Can you think of any big names? Lynne  09:43  Well, Hubert Cousins was one. I don’t know if you know who he is. And then, I’m getting old. I can’t remember his name.  He’s a big Jungian guy now. Thomas. I have to think about it. I mean, we tried to get Elaine Pagels. I remember that I actually talked to her. GT  10:03  I would love to get Elaine Pagels on. Lynne  10:04  But she had had some kind of tragedy in her life and we couldn’t get her. I’d have to go back and look, but we had pretty wonderful scholars coming and chatting. And then we’d go out to dinner.  Anne and Barry Ulyanov, who were very big union, they were authors out of the New York Theological Union School, stuff like that, which was up right up my alley, stuff I was really interested in. GT  10:27  John Dominic Crossan was there just a couple of years. Do you know John? Lynne  10:29  Oh really? I just know the name. GT  10:31  Yeah, he’s fantastic. Lynne  10:32  But, it was fun, because I got to help choose. This is what I’m interested in. Let’s get these people. So yeah, it was great. GT  10:40  Very cool. Yeah. I didn’t realize you were the head of Sunstone. Lynne  10:43  You keep saying that, but I don’t want that out there that I was… GT  10:47  The symposium is everything, now, it seems like. Lynne  10:49  Really, I chaired it. But to be really clear, Elbert and Dan were [in charge.] We were just always in meetings together and figuring out things together. But I got to bring in a lot of women’s study stuff at the time. When I started chairing it, I was also really understanding feminism and that sort of thing. So, I was bringing in people talking about feminism, at least, almost every concurrent session, there was a session on women. There was also a session on being gay in Mormonism, and oftentimes, sessions about the temple. So, that stuff started coming in, it became really fun, but controversial. GT  11:28  Well, and the temple stuff led to a statement against symposia. Was that during your tenure or right after? Lynne  11:34  It was during–well, right after, I can’t remember if it was when we got kicked out or right before. But, right around then, they put out a statement that people at BYU couldn’t speak at the symposium anymore. GT  11:48  Okay. Lynne  11:49  Because of Packer, because Packers wrote that… GT  11:53  Boyd Packer. Lynne  11:54  Boyd, he gave that talk that said that there were three evils facing the Church, feminists, intellectuals and homosexuals. And that’s part of the reason that was that for me, for him, the last straw, because I was on television. And they asked me what I thought about that. And I said, “Well, if Boyd would get a relationship with Jesus Christ, we might get a Christ-like talk out of him.” And then the next day, I got a letter for my court. GT  12:19  For your court. Lynne  12:19  Yeah, I was on Chris Vanocur’s Sunday morning show or something. GT  12:22  So, this is 1993. Lynne  12:24  Yes, 1993. GT  12:26  Was it August, September, when you got that letter? Lynne  12:28  I got the letter in August, because it was during the symposium that I gave that talk, that I gave that interview. And because I was also the president of Mormon Women’s Forum at that time, which was the feminist group in town. Right. So I was doing that. And I was also the chair of the BH Roberts society. So, I was kind of doing all three of those at the time. So that’s why I was invited to go on that, to get on that talk show. GT  12:58  And so the key issue was the interview. It wasn’t some of your writings? Lynne  13:04  Well, there was probably more than that, because I had begun speaking and saying how I felt. And I’d been, we’d been in the LA Times, and I did a thing with Margaret Toscano and Marti Ashby. But at the time, she was Marti Esplin. I think it was just the three of us. We did a performance piece, where at the end, because Gordon Hinckley had said that we don’t pray to a mother in heaven, that he’d written a letter, “Hey, Virginia, we don’t pray to a mother in heaven.” And I had said at the end, that he needed to understand that answers to prayers were not given by a man behind the pulpit, and that he wasn’t more powerful than the Gpd that made him, and then if we were praying to a female deity, it was because we felt drawn to do that, and that he had to understand that, and that made him a little irritated. GT  13:56  So I was just talking with Janice Allred, and she had said that Gordon Hinckley had come after her because she’d given a talk, also, about the Prophet can’t lead the church astray. And she disagreed with that. Lynne  14:15  They don’t like that. GT  14:18  Well, and Margaret Toscano, it seems like Boyd K. Packer was very involved with her excommunication. Lynne  14:24  Oh, yeah. GT  14:26  So, do you know who was involved in yours? Lynne  14:27  Oh, Packer. Here’s what happened after. So, do you want to hear what led up to it? GT  14:31  Yeah. Lynne  14:36  The whole story is really interesting. So, I wasn’t feeling really comfortable in my ward, at this point. GT  14:44  Because you were so outspoken? Lynne  14:46  Yeah, that was going on. And I was trying to understand some things and I’m a convert. I joined the Church when I was 18. And so, I didn’t I just didn’t know the culture, first of all. So, when I went to BYU in the 70s, it was, like, 1970. That was a weird thing, anyway, because I realized it was actually 1950 in Provo, in a strange experience. So, I didn’t know the culture. And I didn’t understand–I just didn’t know the rules in a lot of ways. They just aren’t my rules from growing up. And I’m Italian. And that makes a difference. One time Paul Toscano said, “Yeah, they don’t like anyone who’s got vowels in their last name,” the last letter of their name is a vowel. Anyway, my home teachers had come to see me. And I told them, “You know, I just don’t feel like going to church anymore.” And so, about a week later, I got a call from my bishop, that he wanted me to come and see him. And I thought, “Isn’t that great? Look it’s working, my home teachers went, and he now wants me to come.” Actually, I was taking some classes up at the U and I had left the class early, and I went down, and then he and the counselors were there. And they were in their suits. And I thought, “Wow!” Honest to God, I was like, “This is so great.” So, I sit down and they say, this was what he said, “Elder Lorin C. Dunn has asked us to call you in to see if we need to take some ecclesiastical action.” GT  16:10  This is at BYU? Lynne  16:11  No, this is up here in Salt Lake in 1993, in May of 1993. And I started. I couldn’t. I just started laughing. And I was just like, you guys, you’ve got to give me a minute. I thought you called me in here because you cared about me. And then something switched. They all kind of were like, like, oh, and so we have this lovely conversation. It was really lovely. And I remember the bishop saying, “I’m going to tell Elder Dunn that you’re fine. You’re a lovely person.” And so that happened. And so = then in September, I mean, in August, when I did that talk, I went and I called him Boyd and said, What I felt about that if he would have a relationship with Jesus, we might have a grace, like, talk out of him. I got that letter. And so when I was when my church had my court happened, I was the first and I was disfellowshipped. And two weeks later, the first and second counselors’ wives came over to me and said, “We need to tell you something. They those guys, the bishop and his counselors, were getting so much pressure from Packer to excommunicate you, and they couldn’t, because they liked you too much. And that is why you were disfellowshipped. They were they actually were told to excommunicate you.” So it was an interesting experience for me. And I was like, so packer and Dunn were sort of in they were, they were doing stuff together. And they just were after anyone that they didn’t feel like, I don’t know, understood obedience, or authority or something. Yeah. GT  17:49  Okay. And so Loren Dunn and Boyd Packer were deeply involved. And then you were the first. So did that affect your church attendance? Lynne  18:03  Oh, yeah. I mean, yes. GT  18:07  Why would you come? Because the interesting thing is, I’ve talked to Janice Allred and I know Lavina Anderson, for 30 years have continued to go to church every week, not so with Margaret and Paul. I don’t think you go to church. Lynne  18:22  No. GT  18:22  So, tell us more about that. Lynne  18:23  I’ll tell you a little bit about that. So, I was just disfellowshipped. And I got a letter from them saying, from the stake president, or the bishop or something saying [that] these were the things that I had to do to get back in the Church. I couldn’t speak in church. I couldn’t teach. I could wear my garments. I could pay tithing. But I had to be really quiet. And I couldn’t speak ill of the Lord’s anointed, that kind of thing. But they had said they had followed the handbook, which is really interesting, because the handbook said, at the time, that if you’re going to do this, you’re going to take a church action, you have to meet with someone a few times before. So, I wrote back and said, “You guys didn’t follow the handbook, first of all.” And I got a letter back saying, “Well, actually, the bishop did. He met with you two times. One, that one in May, and the other was at my church court.” So I thought that was really interesting. So they wrote me this letter and I wrote them back and said, “Just so you know, I have absolutely no intention of following your admonitions. I’m not going to stop speaking out. I’m not going to do that.” GT  19:31  So, they didn’t want you, not just to speak at church, but [not] to speak at Sunstone or anything like that. Lynne  19:35  Yeah, that would have been the thing and I was like, nah. That’s not my way. So, I just started doing something else, which is what I talked about in that talk that I gave it. But that’s what I said.  They told me to go find something else to do and I did. GT  19:50  {Chuckling}  So, you’ve continued to speak out. I know Janice, they put her on probation, and she said it was, even though it was probation, it was the same as disfellowshipment. Lynne  20:05  Oh, yeah. GT  20:06  And then they went after her about a year later, but they’ve never gone after you.  Why do you think that is? Lynne  20:13  Well, partly because when I left, I was like, you guys go do your thing. That’s fine. I really went down a different path. I wrote him a letter. I wrote him a letter two years after, I sent it to whoever was the president of the Church at the time. And it was a letter of apology actually just saying [that] I just wanted to apologize to you because…”  I had read a book and it had said when there’s been a lot of energy around, you might want to clean it up. So, this had seemed like a bigger thing than I thought it was going to be. The September 6 got really big in a way that I did not expect. So, I wrote him a letter, and I just said, “I am so sorry, because I was so angry, you couldn’t have heard what I was saying. So, please forgive me for that. And also, please forgive me, because I was asking you to give me something that I already had, which is power as a woman. So please forgive me.” So I sent that letter. And then they sent a letter back saying, “Come back to the Church.” And I just thought, yeah, right. And then I thought about it for a while. And I thought, you know, maybe I would want to get back into the Church, and then leave quietly, because I was I was done. But there was this energetic thing out there. And so I went to my bishop, and I told him what I was doing and the work I was doing and how I was being, my life, and he actually said, “You know, I think the Church could use someone like you, but I have talked to the General Authorities, I’ll get back with you. I would love for you to come back.” And then I never heard from again, so that wasn’t ever going to happen. And that was that was it for me right there. GT  21:49  Well, because I’m interested to hear more of your background. I think convert to the Church looks at the Church a lot differently than a lifelong member. Lynne  21:59  So differently, yeah. GT  22:00  And it’s interesting, because Margaret and Janice are lifelong members of the Church. Paul, on the other hand, is still a believer, and a convert. And so, you said you have Italian ancestry? Lynne  22:13  Yeah. GT  22:14  That’s why you get along so well with Paul? Lynne  22:15  Well, we, yeah, I think maybe. But I just, I adore all [of them,] Margaret, Paul, Janice. Paul, he’s got that Italian humor and it’s great. It’s really great. GT  22:27  I love Paul, too. {End of Part 1}   Growing up Outside the Church Interview GT  00:25  So let’s, go back and talk about you growing up. So, you grew up Italian Catholic or? Lynne  00:30  No, actually, my grandmother’s from Italy. My grandfather was from Germany. And my mom grew up with basically immigrants. My grandmother, I think, was either pregnant, or she was born here. But she spoke only Italian until she was in eighth grade. So I grew up with those people. They were my grandparents, I hung out with them. So. My grandmother made really just one, what’s the word, concession to my grandfather. She became a Lutheran and let go of Catholicism. So, I was raised Lutheran, actually. And it’s a long story, but my parents moved a lot when I was kid. I moved in 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th grade. And at some point, I didn’t want to do that anymore. And I started investigating the Mormon Church. And I thought that there was something about it that felt stable, to me, I think, at 17. And they were totally against me becoming Mormon, completely, because they just thought it was the weirdest church. And so, I started investigating, and I’ve got to also say the missionaries were very cute, and I was 17. {Rick laughing} So I was in Florida, and then they moved back up to Pennsylvania. I went from Pennsylvania to Florida a bunch of times. So, they moved back to Pennsylvania, and that’s where I became a Mormon. I was baptized in New Jersey. And then my parents went to my baptism, and two months later, they became Mormon. GT  01:54  Oh, wow. Lynne  01:55  And then all of my Italian family became Mormon. GT  01:58  No way! Lynne  01:58  Yeah, I don’t know. There’s like [about] 30 of them that [joined:] my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, my brother. GT  02:03  Is that because of you? Lynne  02:05  I wasn’t. It was my parents [who] were going around doing it all. I was at BYU by this point. GT  02:10  Okay. Lynne  02:10  So everybody just became Mormon. GT  02:14  Wow. Lynne  02:15  Like, maybe 20, something like that, became Mormon. That changed everything, too. Because by this time I was at BYU. At BYU, I was becoming a little clearer, because the Church in Pennsylvania is very different. GT  02:30  Very different. Lynne  02:31  Yeah. And then I went to BYU. GT  02:31  Okay. {chuckling} Lynne  02:31  Than the Church in Provo, Utah. And I remember thinking, “Oh, man, this is–now all these people are joining. What am I going to do?” Like, this is not the way they said, they didn’t– when I joined, they didn’t talk about racism. They didn’t talk about misogyny. They didn’t talk about–they didn’t talk about much, really. They just like, “Come in. It’s this lovely family thing.” So, when you’re 17, you’re not investigating too much because the missionaries are cute. So that’s how I got into the Church. So, I went to BYU. GT  02:42  So you went to BYU. You were kind of a fish out of water at BYU? Lynne  03:06  Totally a fish out of water. GT  03:08  Okay. Lynne  03:08  My second year at BYU, I got called in and they said, “We think another university might be better for you.” I think it may have been because I was hitchhiking to church, and I was wearing–it just wasn’t a match. It just wasn’t a match. And I realized it wasn’t. So that’s what happened. GT  03:25  You were hitchhiking. Don’t you just go to your classes to go to church? Lynne  03:29  No, actually, because the wards were all over the place back in ’70’s. I mean, they were all over Provo. But, anyway, the whole thing is they said [that] we think another university would be better for you. GT  03:40  You should have come down the road to Utah Tech at the time, right? Lynne  03:42  Yeah, I should have, right? I don’t even know if it was there, or gone up to the U of U.  So that started my entrance into being a Mormon in the Wasatch Front. GT  03:52  But, still did you graduate from BYU? Lynne  03:55  No, I never did graduate. I didn’t. I started working.  Part of it is, I grew up pretty poor, and there was not a lot of money. So, I started working. And when I started working, I had to work and then I just didn’t go to school, I was paying for my life. And then got married when I was 26, because I continued to work. And then I actually put him through med school, and then I went back to school right after I stopped working for Sunstone. And I was in school for a couple of years. I loved it, I was doing really well. But then I got kicked out of the Church.  Getting kicked out of the Church created a whole, like talks, like there’s a whole bunch of stuff that went along with being kicked out of the Church as a part of the September Six. I was doing newspaper stuff and talks and all of that and then my marriage fell apart. And then I just didn’t go back to school. And then I opened up a practice. I’m a life coach. I have read a lot of stuff around the psyche and Jung and Freud. From the time I was 17, I had spent a lot of time really investigating the way the mind works. And then, in 1990, let’s see. It was 1993 when I got kicked out, I found a fantastic therapist who saw something in me, and I started attending a group that teaches people how to do a particular kind of counseling. So in the group, there are therapists and psychiatrists and psychologists. We’ve been in that group for 23 years, every Thursday night, and he helped me open a practice and now I’m a life coach. “Not the Church I Thought it Was” Interview GT  05:36  Okay, so did you, for lack of a better word, did you lose your testimony in 1993, when they kicked you out? Lynne  05:48  No, by 1993, I think I was a little more aware of things, like that the Church actually believed that God lived on a planet next to Kolob, and had body parts and passions in a way that I hadn’t understood before. But mostly the misogyny and the homophobia and the racism, to me, that was like, I couldn’t understand why everybody wasn’t up in arms with Packer giving that talk, for instance, like he was saying, “We are misogynists.” He was saying, “We are homophobic.” He was saying, “We are anti-intellectual.” GT  06:27  In 1993, that would have been pretty common for most of the United States to be homophobic, though. Wouldn’t it? Lynne  06:33  But don’t say that you’re a church that [loves.] Don’t say that this is a church that isn’t about love. Because that’s not about love. I don’t give a crap what everybody was saying at the time. GT  06:45  I’m trying to remember the political situation, it seems like that was when they passed the Defense of Marriage Act in the US Congress. Lynne  06:56  But also the ERA (Equal Rights Amendment) didn’t pass. GT  06:58  Well, that was back in the 70’s. Lynne  07:00  But that was also the misogyny part. GT  07:03  Okay. Lynne  07:03  That which, by the way, the Church did everything it could to not pass that, ERA. GT  07:07  Right. Lynne  07:07  And then the marriage defense… GT  07:09  So there’s a lot, it seems like we’re condensing a lot of stuff. So you’ve got the ERA. Lynne  07:14  You’re asking me why what helped me… GT  07:15  That was in 1976, roughly. Lynne  07:17  [It was] 1978 . GT  07:17  So, in 1978, the Church puts a big push to shut down the Equal Rights Amendment. Lynne  07:25  To keep women in their place. GT  07:27  Keep women in their place, as you say. And so I mean, 1978, it sounds like you joined the Church, probably, in 1970 or so? Lynne  07:36  [In] 1970. GT  07:38  Oh, in 1970. So you probably recognized the racism between 70 and 78. Lynne  07:45  Yeah, well, here’s what’s interesting. I left and went to BYU. At BYU, there was no color. GT  07:52  Right. Lynne  07:53  So, it didn’t really hit me… GT  07:55  Right. Lynne  07:55  …until a little while later, when I started really reading stuff and understanding. To me, let me just say this, let me think, so that I can be clear. To say; “Wasn’t that the way the world was, anyway?” To me, is the Church, is it really a part of the world? It’s the old, is it a hospital or is it a social club? And the fact that the Church that touts itself as Jesus is the head of the Church, and it’s all love and that and then to have one of the authorities actually blatantly say that. Not just that, but when I was reading the John Birchers, all of that stuff, too. All of a sudden, it was like, this is not the church I thought it was. This church is not this loving, kind, wonderful church. It’s as big of a mess as the rest of the world. And I know that’s a little naive to think that it wouldn’t be, but it woke me up. GT  08:51  Okay. Lynne  08:51  And I was like, I’m going to go find something else, because I don’t want to be part of that. GT  08:57  So can you talk about your feelings of June 1978 when the revelation came to allow blacks to have the priesthood? Was that a good day? Was that a bad day? Lynne  09:06  Well, it was a great day. I mean, don’t get me wrong. But what I found out from Mike Quinn, was that it was at the same time when they were doing temples in Brazil, and no one knew who was black or white. And so, they didn’t know what to do. And so, this revelation came. And so do I believe it was a revelation? Probably not. I think it was convenient. And they had to do that. The Church is a growing church. It’s a proselytizing church. So, it was too convenient. GT  09:41  When you say too convenient, were those your thoughts in ’78? Or did that come later? Lynne  09:48  Well, in 1978, I wondered. That’s an interesting thing that now this is coming out? GT  09:55  The reason why I asked you, Matt Harris is a professor at Colorado State, in Pueblo, Colorado. Lynne  10:01  Yeah. GT  10:01  And he’s got a new book coming out, that I cannot wait [to read.][2] One of the thesis that’s going to come out is; there were some apostles that were hard liners that believed in the race ban. And so, President Kimball purposely announced the temple in ’74, I think it was, to get apostles to say, “There’s a big race problem in Brazil. What are we going to do?” And so, Matt’s… Lynne  10:36  That’s one way. I mean, it’s possible. You know, it’s possible. Of course, he wrote that lovely book, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Kimball. GT  10:43  Kimball. Lynne  10:43  So, I mean, I just, I don’t have a lot of faith in them. I guess that’s the bottom line, you know? Well, the fact that, that was even a question, that they were hard liners about race in this church. It just doesn’t work in the way that I see the world. It just doesn’t work. Like, why wouldn’t whoever was the President of the Church or the Prophet of the Church say, “This is ridiculous. We’re not going to do this. This is not okay.” GT  11:13  Okay. Lynne  11:14  And, I mean, it’s still a problem. GT  11:18  So, because we’ve also got the Equal Rights Amendment. President Kimball was against that. Did you know Sonia Johnson? Lynne  11:27  No, but I was influenced by Sonia Johnson. I gave a talk at Sunstone saying, “We’re standing on her shoulders, as feminists, and she was standing on other feminists. We all stand on each other’s shoulders.” She was a real wake up for a lot of us. That was a wake up. Do you want to know what the actually big wake up was, although Sonia was part of it.  But it was, who was it? I think it was, it wasn’t Kimball. It was in the ’80s, whoever was the President of the Church might have been… GT  12:00  Benson. Lynne  12:01  Benson gave a talk. And he quoted Kimball, I think, saying; “Women come home from the typewriter. Come home from the office. Come home and make beds and clean house for your family. Because that’s what you’re here to do”. And for a ton of us, that’s how Mormon Women’s Forum got formed, out of that talk. GT  12:25  Oh. Lynne  12:26  Because everyone watched it. And we’re like, wow. That’s actually the way you see women. That’s what this church sees for women. But it was also, like, don’t come home from the attorney’s office or anything, but come home from the typewriter. Come home from the– as if women were here just to serve. And I think that was—it’s a culmination of things. I think it builds on things. GT  12:26  Because what I’m hearing is, so late ’70s, early ’80s, the priesthood ban was removed, which was good. You were like, why did it exist in the first place? Lynne  13:03  Yeah. GT  13:03  ERA’s going and you’re like, women’s rights, I believe in that. It sounds like you were ahead of the nation, I’ll say, as far as gay rights. Because,= Defensive Marriage Act was early ’90s. Bill Clinton, I remember signed that into law. And so we’ve got this bubbling up of– Elder Packer would say the three threats of the Church, gays, intellectuals, and feminists. Lynne  13:32  Yeah, feminism, intellectuals and homosexuals, which is an interesting thing to say. GT  13:38  And so those were causing you a lot of personal anguish, I guess, with the Church? Lynne  13:44  Well, partly with the Church. You know what, also, women weren’t giving prayers in sacrament [meeting] until ’78. They had taken a lot. There was one other thing that happened, too, which I think is okay to talk about now. So, at the time, I’m trying to remember who was the Relief Society President in the Church? Chieko was one of the counselors and there was Aileen Clyde who was a counselor and… GT  14:12  Sherry Dew? Lynne  14:12  No,  Jack? GT  14:14  Elaine Jack. Lynne  14:14  Elaine Jack, yeah. So we had a Mormon Women’s Forum meeting at my house, and Aileen Clyde came to that meeting, and said, this to us. This is when everybody was waking up. She said, they’d been in the Relief Society presidency for like three or four years or something. And Mrs. America, who was a Mormon had just met with whoever the Prophet was, which was… GT  14:42  Miss America? Lynne  14:42  Mrs. America. GT  14:43  Ah, Mrs America. Lynne  14:44  [She] met with, was it Hinckley at that time? Maybe Hinckley or Benson, Hinckley one of them. GT  14:48  In the 80’s it would have either been Kimball or Benson. Lynne  14:49  No, no Kimball, Kimball was gone. GT  14:51  So Benson? Lynne  14:52  It was the ’90s. GT  14:54   Oh. Lynne  14:54  It was the 90’s. GT  14:56  That would have been after Benson was Hunter. Lynne  14:59  Yeah, but he didn’t last long. It was Hinckley, I think. GT  15:01  Hinckley, okay. Lynne  15:03  I’m not sure, but whoever it was, she said “Mrs. America had just met with the Prophet. How often do you think the Relief Society President has met with this prophet? We’ve been in there for five years or something?” We said once a year? She said, “Zero!” GT  15:19  Really? Lynne  15:20  She said, we don’t get to do that. We don’t get to meet with him. In fact, they had been set aside, you know, the things when they set people aside. GT  15:32  Do you mean set apart? Lynne  15:36  Yeah, set apart, set aside, whatever. But and I’m telling the story, but it was so long ago, I don’t think it’ll matter. Because those guys aren’t even around anymore. But they had been set apart as being in charge of all the women. And then whoever did that went out and another General Authority came in and said, “That was the wrong setting apart.” And he set them apart to be only over them. So that in the past, if there was a problem in Ohio, the women could decide they could go do that. But now, if there was a woman in Ohio, who are having a problem, they had to go to the general authority and go through them in order to go out there. So they had lost a lot of their power. GT  16:18  The Relief Society. Lynne  16:19  The Relief Society. And so, this was also really interesting for us. And I know that what they were hoping, because they were really wonderful women, Aileen and Chieko are wonderful women. I mean Chieko just said, “Hey, these people at Sunstone are just like, kids in the program for smart kids. Why don’t you just leave them alone?” But I think they we’re hoping that we would push the envelope out a little bit for them. So, they had some movement. In fact, the day of my court, I got a call from Aileen Clyde saying, “Please don’t get excommunicated. We need you guys to do this thing. We want you to move out the envelope, so we have more room to move.” GT  17:04  This is Aileen Clyde? Lynne  17:06  Clyde. GT  17:07  From the Relief Society General presidency? Lynne  17:09  Yes. And I also got a call from Connie Chung’s people asking me if I would take in a hidden camera, which I said no. Because remember, Connie Chung had a news report thing at that time. She had called me the same day. GT  17:22  Oh, wow. She was CBS news. Lynne  17:25  Yeah, she was CBS News. It was interesting. But I said no. But it was interesting, because I could tell how much they love the women of the Church, these women. Every power was getting taken away from them. And so that was coming into us, too. We understood that Mormon Women’s Forum was becoming more and more aware of the limits of what was happening and taking away instead of giving women more and more room to actually be who they are. So that pushed us on, as well. GT  18:02  Okay. So I think I get a better sense of the things that were bothering you from probably the late ’70s, because it sounds so when you’re first baptized, you came in. You didn’t know anything. And then I mean, when did you first notice that racism or sexism was a problem?  Was it ’78 when the Church  announced the rescission of the ban and they were against ERA? Lynne  18:32  Well, let me also say this. When I became a Mormon, I was 17 when I was investigating, 18 when I joined, I looked very young. And so I went for my interviews, and no one asked me any sexual questions, at all. None. GT  18:49  Well, those aren’t typical baptism questions. Lynne  18:53  Yeah, they are. Have you had sex? GT  18:55  Oh, do you obey the law of chastity, I guess, yeah. Lynne  18:58  Yeah, not a word. GT  18:59  Really? Lynne  18:59  Not a word. So when I went in for my patriarchal blessing, my bishop asked me those questions. And I looked at him and I said, “I think you’re a lecherous old man. This is none of your business.”  And he did not know, he said, “No one’s asked you these questions?” And I said, “No!” So, I came in not knowing a lot of this stuff. GT  19:18  Okay. Lynne  19:19  So it was really like shock after shock. I was like; “Really? You think that’s your business? That is really weird.” So I was reeling from that, as well, just kind of like, okay, this is really different. The race thing, I’ve always been aware of race issues. But because I was in Provo and there were no people of color at all, really… GT  19:46  They didn’t even have any on the football team back then. Lynne  19:47  I don’t think so. Nobody was. It didn’t sink into my consciousness until probably, maybe a couple of years before, understanding wait a minute. There’s a ban? You can’t even have a drop of blood and be Mormon, a drop of blood that they consider black. GT  20:08  Well, we would baptize them. We just wouldn’t give him the priesthood. Lynne  20:10  But, you couldn’t go to the temple. GT  20:11  Right. Lynne  20:12  Yeah, you couldn’t do anything. It was ridiculous. It was just ridiculous. And so that stuff was really bubbling up to me as well. I’d spent my childhood reading about, well, reading about everything that I could possibly read, beginning with the Holocaust, and then racism and then the Native Americans and understanding the problems. And for some reason, I don’t know why. But because of the way the Church presented itself, I thought it was a different, I thought it’d be different. So it shocked me, just a little bit, that it wasn’t. And that’s how it started. GT  20:45  Okay. So, you’re wrestling in the ’80s with feminism, racism, even gay rights? Lynne  20:52  Even gay rights. Because I had a lot of gay friends by then. GT  20:54  Okay. Lynne  20:55  It’s BYU. I have a lot of gay friends, even back then. So yeah, I had gay friends. I had gay friends who killed themselves, actually, because of the Church and the standard. So, all that stuff was, it was pretty tumultuous time with racism and misogyny and homophobia. All of that was part of what we were doing at Sunstone, trying to raise the consciousness of how do we do this? And at that point, I really was hopeful that the Church would want to shift the way it was responding to people. And so, when we were doing it, and we were having all these sessions, I kind of thought, well, this is great. This is kind of working, right? This is, people are coming, we’re talking about it, all of that. And then they went after anybody who was a professor at BYU, which was trying to shut down Sunstone. GT  21:51  Yeah. Which they never did. {chuckling} Lynne  21:53  Which they never did, but they tried. GT  21:57  So, they told the BYU professors, “You can’t go to Sunstone anymore.” Lynne  22:00  Well, who got also kicked out? Cecilia. GT  22:05  Farr? Lynne  22:05  Cecilia Farr and David Knowlton. Right after us, they were also kicked out of BYU. There’s a lot of stuff. It was almost like a it was a purge. It was a purge going after anyone who wasn’t really towing the line. GT  22:20  Okay. Lynne  22:20  Yeah. And that was also–we were, I was shocked. First of all, we were stay at home moms, a lot of us. So, I couldn’t figure out what they were so all worked up about. We were just doing stuff. Right? I was raising kids and putting people through, through his residency and all that stuff. And what was the big deal? But apparently, it was a big deal. GT  22:47  And so basically, when your church court happened, did you attend? Lynne  22:52  Oh, yeah. GT  22:52  Okay, so you attended, met in the bishops office, he said… Lynne  22:55  No, because I was the first. I didn’t know what, nobody knew what was happening. I was the first. GT  23:01  You were the first one. Lynne  23:02  Yes. GT  23:03  And so then the dominoes started falling after you. Lynne  23:05  Yeah. Here’s what’s really funny. So, I go to the church. I don’t know what’s going to happen there. A couple hundred people [are] singing hymns outside with signs that say” Lynne is not a heretic.” First of all, that was an interesting moment. And then two of my witnesses, Margaret and Lavina were witnesses. GT  23:23  Margaret Toscano? Lynne  23:24  Margaret Toscano and Lavina were my witnesses. GT  23:25  Uh-oh! {chuckling} Lynne  23:26  These people who I adore beyond belief, right? But then they’re in there, too. So, the here’s the people who are standing up for me. It was just after, when everybody [got disciplined,] when it started happening. [It] was just amusing. Like, well, there you go. There you go. {Rick laughing} That’s not going to hold any water. But I was so happy that they did it. We had, like, five witnesses. My father at one point looked at the bishop and said, “If you excommunicate my daughter,” because he was a very big Mormon believer by that time. But anyway, so when I look back and see that, it’s pretty funny. GT  24:04  Ok, so you had the church court. The bishop didn’t have the heard to excommunicate you so they disfellowshipped you. Lynne  24:12  Disfellowshipped me, yeah. GT  24:13  But at that point, you were like, if you don’t like me, I don’t like you. I’m done with this? Lynne  24:25  Well, other things happened. Things began happening. Part of it was I found this amazing therapist, and I started really working with that, and then my marriage fell apart. GT  24:37  Was because of your excommunication? Well you weren’t excommunicated, but because of the punishment? Lynne  24:41  I think it was more because we got married after knowing each other for months, and had three kids really fast and went to med school. And then, all of that was really, when you look at that, we were in our twenties. We were stupid, putting so much on your plate. That’s part of it. He was an introvert and that was a pretty extroverted experience. And so I think that was difficult for him because the phone was ringing constantly and I was running the symposium.  There were always people at our house.  So, yeah, it was partly that. But you can’t blame it. I couldn’t. I wouldn’t ever blame it just on that. It was the perfect storm of: this is what’s going to happen. So when that fell apart, I was supposed to have alimony till I was 65. But he got Parkinson’s a few years after we got a divorce. And so I ended up not having alimony and I had to figure out a way to financially take care of myself.  And I have a natural gift of working with people. And so, I started a practice and that’s what happened.   Forgiving the Church Interview GT  00:34  Well, that’s what I want to get into a little bit, because it sounds very interesting to me. So, a few years later, it sounds like you sent a letter where you were forgiving. You’re asking for forgiveness because of your own anger. But you had no intention, really, of coming back. Lynne  00:54  I wasn’t coming back. I never said I was coming back. That wasn’t the point of that letter. GT  00:59  Okay. Lynne  01:00  The point of that letter was: I see that I was asking you to hear me and you couldn’t, because it’s hard to hear someone who’s really pissed about the way things are. Not that it’s a problem to be pissed, but I was pretty pissed. I was saying things, like, I can do sound bites, and that was part of the problem. I was doing talk shows and that kind of stuff. But the other thing is, I really wanted to say, “You can’t give me what I already have. And that is my own authority, my own power as a human being, as a woman. And I was somehow asking you for that.” So, I began to realize that, because I wanted their approval, I was dancing around the patriarchy, instead of going to do something that I really wanted to do. And so when I realized that, I sent them that letter, and then I moved into the direction. I was already in the direction of going in that direction where I am now, because of things that had shown up in my life and the work that I do that has a lot to do with going to Peru, and some of the stuff that I talked about in my talk at Sunstone. But, no, I was never [coming back.] I never even had a moment of thinking of coming back when that happened. GT  02:15  Okay, so was this was, for lack of a better word, a way to get forgiveness with the Church, where you were forgiving the Church? Lynne  02:28  Yeah. GT  02:28  So this is your own personal forgiveness. Lynne  02:30  Absolutely. The only reason to do forgiveness is for yourself really. Tight? To let yourself off the hook; I really wanted to let all that go. I have come to this conclusion: The Church is doing exactly what it needs to do. Well, whatever that is, for me, was the perfect amount of patriarchal authority that I needed to find myself and to go, okay. I don’t believe that. That is not good for the world. Patriarchy, in my opinion, is what is crushing the world at this point. And so, I don’t want that. I want something else. And so that sent me on my way. And without the Church, I don’t think I would have become who I am, really. GT  03:13  So do you regret being baptized? Or was that just part of your journey? Lynne  03:17  Nope, I actually think every single step was exactly what I needed.   Own Spirituality Interview GT  03:23  Okay. And so, as you’re looking at this, you basically forgave the Church, and then said, I’m moving in this other direction. Can you talk about your spirituality now? Because it sounds like you’ve just got a different kind of spirituality. Lynne  03:39  Yeah, Let me also say, I mean, I still work on the Church. Sometimes I hear stories, and I’m just like [ugh.] People will come and talk to me because of my background. Being part of the September Six has got a shadow and a light. You never know. My own spirituality comes out of working with the medicines I work with. I go to Peru every year. And I work with Ayahuasca down there, which if you are aware of the psychedelics that are coming into the country right now, there’s a book called How to Change Your Mind. Have you read that? Or do you know about it? GT  03:40  [No] Lynne  03:40  So anyway, it’s been a really interesting thing, although I don’t like the way the culture is taking in psychedelics right now. But 30 years ago, I was introduced to them right after I got kicked out of the Church, and I started doing ceremonies with people and feeling more connected to the earth and to myself and understanding what it means to be human in a different way than through Mormonism, or Christianity really. [It is] just a whole different way of feeling connected to what I call the divine and I am nuts about The Creator and what that energy is that created the universe and all it contains. And so, I’ve had a lot of experiences working out, especially in Peru, working with medicine people and medicine work, to understand what my connection is, and how my belief–not even belief, my feelings of being completely connected to a loving God that is so nuts about all of us that it just keeps loving and loving and loving. And it doesn’t matter if you’re Mormon or not Mormon, but your path is going to take you, life will take you somewhere. And it’s the most interesting, amazing ride that I could have ever imagined. Does that make sense? GT  05:48  Could you characterize it as new age religion? Lynne  05:52  No, no, no, no. I work with people who have been working–their lineage is thousands of years old. GT  05:57  Is it more like Native American religion? Lynne  05:59  South American, more South American. GT  06:02  South American. Lynne  06:00  There’s more than just South America. I can talk about that, because it’s out of the country. I work with a woman down there, that is phenomenal. And she does ceremonies. And so, I take groups twice a year to her place. And we stay for two weeks. And what happens when you’re there is you have this connection with stuff about yourself that you need to connect to. But also, you can see this Garden of Eden that she’s created out of a deforested place, through just the information that gets downloaded when you do this sort of stuff, and the connection she has to the Creator that we all have really. I don’t know how else to say this. But it is this beautiful experience of knowing that you’re loved and that everything, everyone is loved. And everyone’s doing the best they know how. Being human is very difficult. It’s very difficult. And we have a lot of stuff passed down to us. I talked about this in that [Sunstone] talk. But also, we have a lot of limiting beliefs that have been passed down from generation to generation: racism, homophobia, misogyny, all those things have been passed down. And so it’s not like you can get angry at the people who pass down. I’m really not. But you understand that all of those are out of fear. And that fear has kept people from really connecting. And the work that I do with medicine work connects you back into the real person, the real essence of who we really are. And that has been priceless to me. GT  07:43  You said medicine work. And that sounds [Native American.] We always hear about the medicine man. It’s kind of a Native American [leader.] Lynne  07:48  Yeah. GT  07:49  Are you kind of a shaman? Lynne  07:50  Oh, no, no, no, no, no. But I work with this woman down in Peru. She would never call herself a shaman either. She’s an Ayahuasca. But she holds this place for people to come and heal. And it’s the most healing. Not everybody should do it by the way. This is not like, oh, everyone should go out and do any of Ayahuasca or peyote or any of those things. But for people that it works for, it is a beautiful experience and helps them to heal from the generations that they come from. Does that make sense? GT  08:28  Okay. Yeah, it sounds very Native American. Lynne  08:31  I know it does. I am not Native American. And I’m not South American. I’ve worked with the Huichols out of Mexico. And I’ve worked with some of the Quechua tribes, a guy out of Machu Picchu, and this woman has Quechua. But it’s not Native American. I don’t even know how to explain it. Native American is one way but it’s more than that. It’s the way of connecting and caring for the earth and loving the Earth. It’s very feminine. Let me put it that way. It’s a very feminine process, as opposed to the patriarchal process. I don’t think it should all be feminine, or all masculine by the way. I think there needs to be this marriage of both, so that there’s a balance between them. But the work with medicine work is often a very feminine connecting, to watch a mama to the earth and understanding that. In fact, it’s really interesting. There’s a new documentary called Living to 100 on Netflix; The Secrets of the Blue Zone. Basically they found these places in the world where people live to 100. And they’ve done this documentary on what makes these people, where lots and lots of people live that long and they thrive. They’re not stuck. They’re not just surviving. And a lot of it is they’re connected to the earth, their land, they eat the right kinds of food. They have community. They have dance. They have song, all that stuff that we don’t have it, because we’re so separated. COVID really did a thing for us where we are just so isolated. And the isolation is a damaging thing for people, because we need community. And one of the things that has happened for me is finding community and being able to hold space for more and more community. And so, I work with communities.   Family Reactions Interview GT  10:24  Okay. Can you talk a little bit about your family? Because you said that, after you joined the Church, your parents did, and then your extended family did. How did they react to your disfellowshipment? Lynne  10:36  Not so good. {both laughing} Actually, it was really difficult for me, because my parents did not have my back. They said that I probably never believed the Church in the first place and that they sided with the Church, which was very difficult for me. And then my father had a near-death experience. And when he had his near-death experience, everything changed. And from the moment that happened, we had a real connection and a real understanding of each other. And he no longer was, like all church. He was more on love. And that was an absolutely beautiful thing with my dad and I. But so yeah, it was really difficult. The extended family, I had hardly ever talked to them after that. My brother left the Church before I did. And my mom is still in. She’s 93, but she is still very Mormon, and really believes the Mormon Church. GT  11:37  Okay. So your family has continued to attend? Lynne  11:40  Yeah. GT  11:42  Do they view you kind of as a black sheep? Lynne  11:45  Probably, like my uncle, my uncle has passed, my great aunts and uncles all died, they all became Mormons. My father, people are dying off, right. So that’s part of it, but some of them are still very active. And I mean, I probably am this sort of black sheep of the family, in that area. GT  12:06  Do they still invite you to like church events, baptisms, things like that? Lynne  12:11  I have some that live here in Utah. And, no, I don’t get invited to those things. It’s not, I mean, I don’t even feel like they’re, like, not inviting me. They just know I’m not interested. I think that’s more than, I don’t feel ostracized. GT  12:24  Okay. Lynne  12:24  But I also don’t have much in common with them. You know, once you leave the Church, and then you hang out with people who are in the Church, and they’re mainly talking about their church callings and all that stuff. You’re just like, okay. But can we talk about the climate? Can we talk about something? Yeah, so I don’t feel hurt by that at all. By my family doing their thing, no. They went that direction, and I’m this direction. GT  12:50  They still love you and you still love them. Lynne  12:52  Yeah, I don’t feel unloved at all. I felt a little disappointed by my parents not having my back. That was painful. GT  12:59  I’m sure that was. Can you talk about the evolution of Sunstone over, I guess it’s been 30 years? Lynne  13:10  Over 30 years? Yeah. GT  13:11  I mean, I guess you haven’t really checked in a lot. Lynne  13:13  I don’t know. I go when they bring us out and say, here, it’s been 10 years. Now it’s been 30 years. So, I don’t know if we’ll ever do it again. Because we’re getting old. But I just went to that one session. And it was lovely. I was surprised that there were so many people there, actually, that people even remembered, was quite surprising to me that the September Six happened. GT  13:35  People are still interested in it. I’m talking to you on podcast. Lynne  13:37  I know, right? This was just really surprising to me. But, yeah, I can’t really speak to the evolution since Elbert left. GT  13:45  Because you’ve just left it behind, basically. Lynne  13:48  I mean, I really have gone to, I have this really amazingly wonderful, fun life. And that’s where my focus is. GT  13:56  Okay. Can you talk, since you were the first to get disciplined, can you talk about the dominoes that fell after you and your reaction? Lynne  14:04  Well, everybody went to all the courts. It was this very, it was like, so mine comes, this is great. I called Lavina. “Lavina, I got this letter.” This was at night, on a Sunday night. She’s like, “I’ll be over tomorrow.” She comes over the next day. She’s got homemade bread and jam, calls every newspaper and every news thing. I mean, she called everybody. So that’s how the alert went out. And so, but at that point, it was only me.  But soon after, I think even before my court, I can’t remember. I think it was September 14 or something. I think she might have gotten [word.] People were beginning to get letters. So, that’s why I was like, and Lavina liked the sound of the September Six better than the September five. So, she included Avraham in that. She thought it sounded better. GT  14:58  Well it should have been, I think it was in your session. There was another author that said it really should be the September Eight, because we should include Janice and Margaret.[3] Lynne  15:07  But that didn’t happen for another couple of years. GT  15:10  Right. Lynne  15:10  Well, Janice, a year later. And that’s the other thing, I wrote a letter. Let me talk about Janice. Janice getting excommunicated was so strange to me. GT  15:18  Oh. Lynne  15:19  Because she was a believing Mormon. And she has nine kids. The thing is that Janice writes papers that are so intellectual that most people can’t even understand them. {Rick chuckling} And I wrote a letter to the editor about her, which was really, it was so much fun to write, because I wrote about who she was. She’s this believing Mormon. She’s got all these kids. I basically said that “Maybe the General Authorities needed to stop pretending that there was a Victorian era where women stayed home and were happy and men went to work. But embrace their true brothers in the Middle Ages, who went on a witch hunt, throwing women into pools of water to see if they were a witch. In fact, from now on, when women come into the waters of baptism add one step. See if they float. It’ll save us all a lot of time in the end.” And that went all over the Wasatch Front. It got picked up all over. So, that’s probably part of why they don’t want me back. But when Janice got [excommunicated,] I mean that was really shocking to me, because I went to both of her courts or something. GT  16:20  Okay. She had two. Lynne  16:22  And she had two, and it was just like, What are you? It was like a purge. This is Janice! What are you doing? GT  16:30  Well, I wonder if that’s the difference. Janice was still going to church, whereas you just… Lynne  16:36  I had barely stopped. GT  16:39  Okay. Lynne  16:40  I had just stopped, so in May I stopped going. GT  16:44  Okay. Lynne  16:45  Because I was just like, this isn’t right. GT  16:49  So because you basically stepped away from the Church and quit going. That made you not a target. But because Janice was still going? Lynne  16:57  Well, I was still a target. I mean, I was targeted. What do you mean? GT  17:01  Well, it’s funny to me that Janice got put on probation, which she says was the same as disfellowshipment. And then a year later… Lynne  17:13  Oh, right, then they excommunicated her. But didn’t do anything [to me.] GT  17:15  They’ve never done that with you. Lynne  17:16  I don’t know why. Honestly, I don’t know why. Because in the handbook, it says, if someone’s disfellowshipped, you need to do something within like a year or two, or something like that. And it’s been 30 years. I don’t hear a word from anybody, which is fine. I mean, and I haven’t taken my name off the records, partly because I keep forgetting. I might sometime. I don’t know. But yeah, I don’t know. Isn’t that weird, right? GT  17:41  Even Margaret, because she didn’t get excommunicated until 2000. Yeah. Lynne  17:45  So that’s why the September Eight makes sense. Except for this was years later. GT  17:50  Yeah, well, I mean, both Janice and Margaret were in trouble. And I think, [regarding] Paul, Margaret said, “Paul waved the red flag in front of the bull.” Lynne  18:01  Yeah, well, it’s Paul. GT  18:03  They went after Paul instead of Margaret. Lynne  18:05  Yeah, instead of Margaret. But you know, I mean, Margaret is the same thing. She is so lovely, and so wonderful. And the fact that they would—it’s just, like, it’s just small minded and mean, to me. That’s what Paul says, you know, that Margaret’s court was like being raped by the Care Bears. GT  18:26  Yeah, he said that. Lynne  18:29  Because it was the way that, she’s just, yeah. Painful, because these are believing Mormons. To go after them because of who knows why? Petty. GT  18:40  Well, I think Margaret was still speaking in public and you’ve just disappeared off the radar. And Mormonism is in your past, and you don’t care about anymore. And so, there’s no reason to go after you. Is that it? Lynne  18:52  Maybe, I mean, I just went, like I said, when they asked me to do something else, go find something else to do. I did. So. And it’s been really good. So, yeah. {Rick laughing} GT  19:04  And so what do you think of these anniversaries that we keep having? Oh, it’s been 30 years. There’s a new book coming out. Actually, I think it just came out this month. GT  19:11  Got those intellectual juices going? Lynne  19:11  Oh, did it? I should read it. first of all, it was a really interesting experience for me to come and write a paper to give at Sunstone because it brought up all kinds of stuff that I hadn’t thought about for, really, for 30 years. Being there with people that I hadn’t seen for [a long time.] Like it was really kind of lovely, actually. I loved what it took to write it again, because it was something I needed to do. It let me know where I was, in a way that was really good. Lynne  19:20  Yeah, well, there was I didn’t write a very intellectual [paper,] I wrote a really feeling paper because the question was, where are you spiritually after 30 years. So, I actually talked about where I was spiritually after 30 years. And so it was great. But, every once in a while, there’s an article in the paper that–they never tell me and it just shows up and I’ll get people saying, “Hey, you were in the paper again.} It’s just kind of amusing in a way, like, really because it was long time ago. GT  20:11  For you, it’s just totally in the rearview. And so probably these anniversaries, you’re like, oh, what? Lynne  20:16  Yeah, it was just kind of, well we’re aware. And plus, what I have loved about this time is it reconnected me with Margaret and Paul in particular. Because we have been [busy.] Margaret has been busy. I’ve been busy. And I’m seeing them more often, which makes me so happy and love seeing Janice, who I adore. I mean, it’s just those things have been really worth the let’s have this 30 year reunion and I don’t want to lose touch with them again, because they’re fantastic human beings, you know, so, yeah. {Rick chuckling} GT  20:47  Well, Margaret and Paul, both of them have been on twice. They’re just, they’re fun people. Lynne  20:53  They’re great. They’re really great. And Mike and Lavina. I mean, Lavina, she came with warm bread and jam to my house. And so anyway, so it was good. It was good doing that after 30 years. Yeah, but I don’t think we are going to do it in another 30 years. GT  21:11  You won’t be here in 30 years. Well, your mother’s still here. Lynne  21:14  My mom is still here. She’s 93. So we’ll see. {Rick chuckling} Yeah,. GT  21:19  Well, cool. Well, I’m trying to think. Is there anything else we need to cover? Lynne  21:26  Do you have any questions? GT  21:31  I think that’s it then, so, Lynne Whitesides. I really appreciate you for being here on Gospel Tangents and thanks for being on the show Lynne  21:40  Well, thank you. It’s been really fun.   [1] Steve was actually killed October 15, 1985. Mark Hofmann entered prison in 1987. [2] The book is called Second Class Saints and can be purchased at https://amzn.to/3Aemyb3 . See our interview about the book: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/2nd-class-saints/ [3] See our interview with Sara Patterson: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sara-patterson/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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