Post-Growth Australia Podcast

The ‘Tasmanian Perspectives’ series of PGAP examines the lives, projects and perspectives of Post-Growth game changers who have left the mainland to start a new life in Tasmania. What made them decide to jump the Bass Strait? How is it all working out for them? Should you follow by example and make the move yourself? For the first episode, PGAP had the absolute pleasure of chatting with Tania Brookes from the Reseed Centre in Penguin. Tania Brookes is an indigenous Maori woman living on Palawa country in lutruwita, Tasmania, Australia. Currently Tania is the Administrator for the Community Exchange Network Tasmania (CENTs) and is co Administrator for the national Community Exchange System in Australia covering LETS, Community Currency and Time Banking groups around Australia. Tania is a permaculture practitioner/educator affiliated with the RESEED Centre and Live Well Tasmania in northwest Tasmania. Tania discusses with me her reasons for moving to Tasmania from suburban Melbourne and the wonderful community she is now part of in the northwest. She shares her insightsof how the welcoming Tasmanian spirit in smaller, more intimate towns creates a culture of stronger community and giving. We discuss the joys and challenges of being involved in the broader permaculture community, and where permaculture ethics intersect with indigenous values of connection and care for country. We explore the role of spirituality to reconnect with the earth and each other, and finally, Tania shares her vision for change in regards to town planning and the growth based economy more broadly. I had an absolute blast talking to Tania – her care for people, community and place are really on show throughout our discussion. I would like to thank Tania for inviting me to her home and for letting me rearrange her living room to fit all my ridiculous over the top recording equipment! When I arrived she played for me a beautiful piece of local music, ‘My Mother the Mountain’ from Claire Anne Taylor. I was taken so much by the beauty of the song and Claire’s unique expressive voice. With Claire’s permission, I play this track at the end of the interview, as I believe it perfectly encapsulates the connection to family, community and place that were core values discussed in this interview. This interview was made possible by support from Holistic Activism and Town Planning Rebellion. Also a shout out to SPA for making PGAP possible. _PGAP wishes to acknowledge and pay respect to the Tasmanian Aboriginal people as the traditional and original owners, and continuing custodians of this land on which this episode was recorded and acknowledge Elders – past, present and emerging. _ Did you enjoy this episode and would like to explore more? The Reseed Centre in Penguin is an incredible community hub. Click here to find out more I also had the privilege to visit Live Well Tasmania in Wynyard, also doing incredible things. Tania Brookes is the administrator for Community Exchange Network Tasmania (CENT) – find out more about their great work here. Claire Anne Taylor’s ‘My Mother, The Mountain’ has nearly 21 000 views on YouTube! Help give her OVER 21 000 views by clicking here. You can also buy her music at her website here. We name-checked Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism in this episode, who helped make this interview possible. Check them out. Liked this episode of PGAP? You might like…. My interview with Prof. Anne Poelina, Nyikina Warrwa Traditional Owner, gives insight into a First Nation perspective on connection and care for country which I felt resonated with many of Tania’s own insights. Artist as Family explores a family who moved to rural Victoria to live a life a voluntary simplicity and foster a strong local community gift economy connection. Finally, if you’re here because of the permaculture, you can’t go past my interview with David Holmgren! Want to connect more with PGAP? You can contact us here Subscribe to us here I'm pretty sure that a link the episode on Apple Podcast can be found here Until next time!Special Guest: Tania Brookes.

How does a society know when enough is enough and it is time to stop growing, developing, consuming? How does a society know when it has ‘arrived’ and doesn’t need to keep striving for more? How does a society know when it hasn’t yet 'arrived' and where further material growth is still, on balance, a good idea? What are the ceiling limits to look out for? Well, who better to come to my rescue on this philosophical quagmire of a question than Dr. Katherine Trebeck, co-Author of "The Economics of Arrival: Ideas for a Grown-Up Economy." In addition to being a star class writer, Katherine is Senior Strategic Advisor for the Wellbeing Economy Alliance – a global collaboration she co-founded in 2018, the same year she co-founded WEAll Scotland. Before then, she had a prodigious history with Oxfam. She is also one of those people who have given a talk for TedX and amassed over 65 000 views. Impressed yet? However, as I live a very sheltered and insular life, I first came across Katherine Trebeck when I stumbled upon the Melbourne book launch of 'Economics of Arrival' (which she co-wrote with the equally impressive Jeremy Williams) almost by accident. I was meeting up for drinks with fellow post-growth activists who talked me into coming along to the book launch. I was immediately blown away by Katherine's speech at the event and bought the book on the spot. I don't know HOW Katherine and Jeremy did it, but they achieved the almost impossible: they wrote a full-length book about economics and made it an incredibly interesting and absorbing read. I normally read ‘topical’ books only when necessary for my work, but I remember in October 2019 flipping through the pages eagerly on the tram every day on the way to the week-long Extinction Rebellion actions. The book provided a fantastic big-picture perspective on how a better world could look like. This proved to be a great motivator to begin a day's worth of protesting! Katherine's humanity, curiosity and sense for social justice shines through every page in 'Economics Of Arrival' just as it does when I spoke with her, a year and a half later on PGAP. The choice of muzak today is 'Ticonderoga' by Melbourne art-rock duo 'Privateer'. This can all be found on their branch new EP "Winter's Dream." . So sit back, enjoy the discussion and if, after the interview, you feel you still haven't arrived and are hankering for more of Katherine's great work: Dr. Katherine Trebeck's website can be found here. The 'Economics of Arrival’ can be bought here. Why the Future Economy has to be a Wellbeing Economy | Katherine Trebeck | TEDxMünche - this video has merely received 65,114 YouTube views. Make sure you're number 65, 115! Katherine is co-founder of the Wellbeing Economy Alliance. Anyone who loves post-growth will adore WEAll so check them out now! IF YOU LIKED THIS EPISODE OF PGAP YOU MAY ALSO LIKE: Post Growth Institute with Robert Wanalo - Robert is a member of WEAll (just like Katherine!) and a member of Post-Growth Institute (just like Katherine's co-author Jeremy Williams!) In the wrap-up to the interview, I made some observations on contrasting opinions to fellow author Karen Shragg , who I interviewed just one episode ago. Worth checking out to draw out your own comparisons! If you are interested in a global south perspective on family planning and population sustainability, my interview with Ugandan born Florence Blondel is probably still my favourite of all the conversations on PGAP so far.Special Guest: Dr Katherine Trebeck.

Why does modern society persist in pursuing its endless growth experiment when it is so obvious that this is unsustainable? Why is modern neo-liberalism so resistant to change even when the writing is so clearly on the wall? PGAP talks to environmentalist, naturalist, educator, poet and author of new book “Change Our Stories, Change Our World” – Karen Shragg. Karen, who lives in the USA, discusses several of the modern myths and stories detailed in her new book from greed, inequality, religion, anthropocentrism, and the topic to which she focuses the majority of her activism and advocacy – overpopulation. Karen Shragg member of the advisory board of the non-profit “World Population Balance”, and “Earth Overshoot”. I remember being first impressed by Karen’s public speaking when she spoke at the COP25 Madrid panel on Overpopulation and Climate Change, along with Portugal’s João Abegão, who I have also interviewed on a season 1 episode of PGAP. Karen’s capacity to speak to the facts in a colourful, personable and emotional way was on full display at the COP25 panel and also very reflective on the way she writes on environmental issues. That the YouTube video has nearly 18 000 views is a testament. Karen is a stellar communicator for Children and Adults alike. This is evident in the children’s series of books that she co-wrote, ‘Nature’s Yucky’. It is also evident in her fantastic book ‘Move Upstream: A Call To Solve Overpopulation' and her poignant ‘Move Upstream’ blog. However, it is Karen’s latest publication ‘Change our Stories, Change Our World’ which if the focus of this episode of PGAP. A short concise and very manageable book at around 80 pages, ‘Change our Stories, Change Our World’ nevertheless manages to cover much stomping ground, challenging six sticky world views that most of us in society hold, which Karen believes hold the stories which we use to justify business as usual human expansion at the expense of the natural world. My aim was to structure the interview around asking Karen a question around each of the chapter topics. Which I sort of managed to do so despite my usual tangents and distractions. Karen makes this a very engaging and dynamic conversation and I hope you enjoy! The issue of population has again become topical in Australia, as the mainstream media has reported that the country's population has been shrinking since the COVID induced closure of our borders. This is not entirely true - we've had a quarterly decline, but a modest annual increase of population growth. This is, however, much lower than in previous years and has resulted in panic and calls to return to normal ASAP from many in the economic, big business and demographic communities. Well known demographer Dr Liz Allen, for example, was recently interviewed on the ABC to advocate for a return to previous levels of economic migration to avoid apparent economic and demographic disasters. This time, however, Sustainable Population Australia - who kindly support this podcast - were invited to speak on ABC Radio Sydney to provide a counterview to these concerns. For anyone concerned about Australia’s population growth OR about alternatives to growth as usual, hopefully this is a promising sign for many more future on-air discussions. More information regarding the interview can be found on the SPA website here along with a recent media release from SPA that can be found here. But enough about us. Want to find out more about Karen Shragg? Click here for her website 'Moving Upstream'. There you can find her bio, blog, bibliography, and anything else starting with the letter B! She had an opinion piece recently published in the Boston Herald: 'Immigration growth is an environmental issue' If you haven't had enough of Karen's dulcet tones on podcast form, her interview with Rewilding Earth is excellent. I've already linked it, but I just think the whole Cop25 Madrid panel where Karen spoke is just the bee's knees. Finally, did you forget to buy her new book ‘Change our Stories, Change Our World’? Shame on you! Fix this right now by following this link to Amazon (never thought I'd be plugging Amazon but we live in strange times!)Special Guest: Karen Shragg.

*One of the downsides of becoming intimate with Post-Growth is that one becomes acutely aware of the human impact on our planetary systems. One is continuity at loggerheads with growth based economies that are pulling in the opposite direction of where they should be going and what they should be doing - and the people just don’t seem to stop! * Now I don’t know about you, but this can often fill me with depression, anxiety, existential depression and morose apathy. And this is just on one of my rare good, well-adjusted days. So how do we keep ourselves hopeful, in good spirits and avoid turning into one of those bitter, cynical sterotypes that our younger selves were adamant we'd never become? Why do all those life coaches and spiritual types all seem to look so happy, smiling away with those big white teeth which look like they’ve never had to down a surly cup of black, treacly coffee in ages? PGAP talks to Amrit Sandhu - life coach, conversationalist, fellow podcast host -of Inspired Evolution - and long-term smiler, laugher and optimist - to give us some sagely advice. I remember the first few times I met Amrit – we kept bumping into each other at yoga workshops and meditation retreats. You couldn’t really miss Amrit as his joyful laughter filled the room a good five minutes before he event entered it. A few months later Amrit invited me to his Inspired Evolution Facebook group. My social media feed was full of doom, gloom, human error and looming environmental apocalypse. So it took me as surprise when these Inspired Evolution posts kept flicking up – they were full of gasp good news, positive stories, people doing lovely things to each other and their environment. Such a panacea for my social-media mental health and a daily injection of optimism my soul so needed. I then started listening to the ‘Inspired Evolution’ podcast and YouTube videos. I had no idea there were that many entrepreneurs and game-changers out there, doing great things that often intersect with Post-Growth theory, and making a livelihood out of it to boot! Amrit opened my eyes and ears (and probably my heart and soul) and we came friends ever since. He is a brilliant podcast host too! So what happens when two podcast hosts get together? Lots of laughter for a start, closely followed by plenty of D&Ms as Amrit shares how he got out of the toxic construction industry to now do what he does best. Can Amrit turn me into an optimist over the course of an interview or will I drag him down into my black abyss where he so rightfully belongs? The race is on! And the most important philosophical question for all of us – when two podcast hosts talk, who becomes interviewer and who becomes interviewee? You’ll just have to listen and find out for yourself, won’t you. Talking about interviewer/interviewee dynamics, I was actually interviewed by Amrit for the Inspired Evolution podcast, which has just been launched. It was difficult for me to get in the habit of ANSWERING questions rather than ASKING them, but if you want to know my warped thoughts on Post-Growth, behaviour change, hell, even spirituality, then the YouTube video can be found here. At the end of the interview I play a song titled 'Antarctica' that was written by.....me and recorded with a fellow musician David Blair 13 years ago. It has since seen new life in the latest EP by my band Shock Octopus. It is a song about feeling stuck in the present but working toward a better future. I'm not sure if this is the best self-help advice but I felt it resonated with the conversation that Amrit and I shared in the interview. As always, this podcast is made possible by Sustainable Population Australia, and hats off to them for giving space to a podcast that explored the post-growth realm more broadly, from all different angles. Next episode P-GAP will be going back headfirst into population land by talking to American author and sustainable population advocate Karen Shragg. In the meantime! If Amrit made you feel more optimistic about the world and your min/spirit, and you would like more of this, you be Inspired by more of his Evolution on the Inspired Evolution Website, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Linkedin. That should keep you going! However, if that just isn't enough links for you, want to know my favourite Inspried Evolution interviewes? I am a massive fan of Charles Eisenstein so naturally I want you to click on this link. As I interviewed Darpan on PGAP you may be interested in his Inspired Evolution interview here. Lastly, I really love the interview with Koya Webb. I really vibe with her politics and the ide of Fierce Compassion! Did you enjoy this episode? Hated it? Would have loved it if it weren’t for my annoying vocal ticks and choice of music? Make your thoughts public on Apple Podcast (or your favoured podcast listening medium). Your feedback and metadata help PGAP to GROW - the only thing we do want to see growing!Special Guest: Amrit Sandhu.

Martuwarra, the Fitzroy River, is located in the Kimberley region of northern Western Australia – renowned and cherished for being one of the last of the world’s isolated, vast and by global standards – relatively untouched by Western development. Of course, like all places that haven’t yet been concreted over by a dominant culture that demands to grow infinitely on a finite planet, Martuwarra, the Fitzroy River, is under threat to be next on the chopping block. But not without a fight! PGAP talks to Professor Anne Poelina, Chair of the Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council and a Nyikina Warrwa Traditional Owner, is a custodian of her family’s connection to Mardoowarra, at the lower end of the Fitzroy River. Through observation and practice of Indigenous ‘First Law’ - the first Australian law embodied the rules for living in coexistence with nature – Anne believes it is possible to transition from a culture of invasive development and exploitation to an entrepreneurial culture of care and custodianship. Thirteen years ago, our then Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said ‘Sorry’ on behalf of the nation to Australia’s Indigenous people. Since then, you could be forgiven for thinking whether any of this apology has sunk in with the various mining, road construction and other ‘business as usual’ industries that continue to plunder sacred lands that were never ceded. In Western Australia, Rio-Tinto blasted the Juukan Gorge caves – 46 000 years of human cultural significance gone in an instant with the help of some explosives. As I was recording this episode, I learnt that Mining giant BHP have recklessly harmed a Banjima sacred site in the Pilbara region in the same state. And don’t think this is a peculiarly Western Australia phenomena - I’ve just today passed Ararat in Victoria, near the sacred Djap Warrung birthing trees are under relentless threat by the state government to be removed in order to widen a road. This absurdity is straight out of the plot-line of a Douglas Adams novel. In the eyes of the dominant neo-liberal culture, nothing is sacred from mining, fracking, road-widening, grazing, water theft – general exploitation. How could it be when Growth on a finite planet is the modus operandi and any other way of being or relating to the land is seen as anti-development, anti-progress, radical and dangerous? Hence – the ongoing and relentless displacement of First Nations people, culture and land, whether we are talking Brazil, West Papua, West China or, indeed, Western Australia. I personally feel that the conversations around Post-Growth, Degrowth and even national population and migration policy are lacking First Nations’ perspectives, both in public discourse and in the literature. However, if you scratch under the surface, I believe there are voices to be heard on these issues. A couple of years ago, I ran a seminar at the Sustainable Living Festival for Sustainable Population Australia with Richie Allen, director of ‘Traditional Owners Aboriginal Corporation’, titled “Population: Indigenous and Environmental Perspectives”. Richie’s mother Violet ran for the Sustainable Australia Party in the ACT state elections, and it was through SAP connections that Prof. Anne Poelina and I met. It is also interesting that Lowitja O'Donoghue was once a trustee with SPA. And so, Prof. Poelina and I happen to be united in our position to population and migration policy. I am sure that there is no united ‘First Nation’ perspective on population policy and I could bet that opinions on this topic are as diverse as the 360 language groups that comprised the original custodians of this continent pre-colonization. Yet if we are to ‘de-grow’ and ‘decolonise’, then taking time to listen to Indigenous wisdom, including love, respect and connection to land and water, is absolutely crucial. During the interview, Anne shares with us some insight into Indigenous ‘First Law’ as a way out of the anthropocentric, growthist quagmire we find ourselves in; towards a future of sustainability, stewardship and reconnection with each other, the land, water and life. Following my interview with Anne, I play an excerpt of the musical tour-de-force which is "Yimardoowarra" from Nyikina Warrwa artist "Kalaji". Yimardoowarra means belonging to Martuwarra, the Fitzroy River - such a perfect soundtrack for this episode! You can listen to the entirety of the track on "Kalaji"s artist page here. Want to find out more about Prof. Anne Poelina and the Martuwarra-Fitzroy River council? Anne has kindly provided some fantastic links below: Martuwarra Fitzroy River Website: www.martuwarrafitzroy.org Dr Anne Poelina “Wake Up The Snake! Collective wisdom brings nature back to balance | TEDxPerth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZmflOQarnM RiverOfLife, M., McDuffie, M., & Poelina, A., (2020). Martuwarra Country: A historical perspective (1838-present). Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council; Nulungu Research Institute, The University of Notre Dame Australia. https://www.doi.org/10.32613/nrp/2020.5 RiverOfLife, M., Poelina, A., Alexandra, J., & Samnakay, N. (2020). A Conservation and Management Plan for the National Heritage listed Fitzroy River Catchment Estate (No. 1). Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council, Nulungu Research Institute, The University of Notre Dame Australia. https://www.doi.org/10.32613/nrp/2020.4 Poelina A and McDuffie M (2015) Three Sisters, Women of High Degree. Madjulla Inc., Broome. Available at https://vimeo.com/147866161 - Password: Kimberley. Poelina A and McDuffie M (2017) Mardoowarra's Right to Life, Madjulla Inc., Broome, WA, Australia available at https://vimeo.com/205996720 access password: Kimberley. Post-Growth Australia Podcast is made possible with the support from Sustainable Population AustraliaSpecial Guest: Prof. Anne Poelina.

Three inspiring women. Three powerful arguments why empowered women who choose smaller or childfree families are good for individuals, good for communities and arguably better for the planet. This is the case regardless of where in the world you happen to live - global north OR global south. Population is a contentious conversation starter - in large part because it is a very personal issue for all of us. Yet it is a conversation that we must have if we are to envision a future with less, rather than more, human impact. This incredibly special episode goes hand in hand with Sustainable Population Australia's 'Stop at 2' campaign as they launch Maxine Trump's documentary 'To Kid or Not to Kid' in Theatres across Australia in late February. Meet Florence Blondel - Ugandan born journalist and all round game changer. I stumbled across her powerful article for Earth Overshoot day and couldn't help but to be incredibly moved. It had me thinking that there is so much debate in the global north around family planning based foreign aid for women and communities in the global south and yet the perspectives from women who live in the global south themselves are often lost in the noise. Florence is no less moving and inspiring in interview than she is in writing - cutting through the myths and misperceptions with stunning clarity, wisdom and through her direct experiences and anecdotes. You can find out more about Florence's great work here. Meet Maxine Trump - director of 'To Kid or Not to Kid', virtually the first English language documentary to explore the decision whether or not to have children. Maxine points the lens at herself - literally and figuratively - as she juggles over the course of the feature length film the pros and cons of motherhood and opting, ultimately to be childfree. It has received rave reviews from the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, and having seen her film myself I can vouch for the unanimous praise! I chat with Maxine about her reflections following the making of the film as we anticipate the Australian premiere of 'To Kid or Not to Kid' in Australian cinemas in partnership with Sustainable Population Australia's 'Stop at 2' campaign. A trailer for the film can be seen here and it will be released soon on Amazon Prime for those who are unable to make it to the Melbourne or Perth screenings. Meet Tanya Williams - Brisbane based author of 'Childfree Happily Ever After'. Tanya shares with me her personal journey in her decision to be proudly childfree and her life mission to spread the word and normalise the choice to be childfree across the globe. She has released a new 'Childfree Magazine' this month - again, virtually a first of its kind. You can find out more about Tanya, her book and the new magazine here. As mentioned, Sustainable Population Australia will be hosting private screenings of 'To Kid or Not to Kid' in Melbourne on the 26th of February and in Perth on the 27th of February in cooperation with Transition Town Guilford. According to Sandra Kanck, national president of SPA: "The aim of the campaign is to normalise the choice of having small or childfree families. As an environmental NGO, we advocate for smaller families as one solution towards reducing pressures on the Earth and support those who go down that path." SPA has produced a couple of short interview films here and here examining the issue with a range of people, including those who have decided to be childfree and those who have decided to have families. The screening of 'To Kid or Not to Kid', later this month, will be an excellent finale to our two year long project. A media release on the 'Stop at 2' campaign can be found here. Interested in seeing Maxine's movie for yourself? Glad you asked! More information on the Melbourne screening can be found here. More information on the Perth screening can be found here. We are crossing our fingers for a third time lucky - we tried to screen the film twice last year and COVID lockdowns got the better of us! There has been some recently excitement in both Perth and Melbounre with hotel quarrantine scares so we are really hoping the dust will settle through to the end of February at least! Given that many studies have demonstrated that having one less child is a more effective way to address personal emissions than a range of reductions in consumption or lifestyle choices, this is a necessary discussion to have for environmnetalists and the broader post-growth movement alike. Time stamp: 00:00 - 07:45: Intro 07:46 - 46:35: Florence Blondel 46:36 - 01:04:42: Maxine Trump 01:04:43 - 01:20:53: Tanya Williams 01:20:54 - End: OutroSpecial Guests: Florence Blondel, Maxine Trump, and Tanya Williams.

A new year – a new season of Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP). What better way to open than with Meg Ulman and Patrick Jones from Artist as Family – two people who are living Degrowth day by day in the most visceral, practical, and inspiring way I have ever seen. Their dedication to living within their ethics, politics and the bio-capacity of their home in Daylesford is nothing short of phenomenal. The interview begins with a tour of their quarter acre block that they share with their son Woody and their dog Zero. The usual modern day trappings of carports, flushable toilets, televisions and gas heating have been replaced by food forests, closed loop water and compost systems, rocket stoves and fermenting tables. Sounds like they have their priorities right! The interview was recorded late last year as lockdown was on the wane. Therefore the tiny houses and on site cottages where volunteers, WWOOFers and community builders often stay were absent of the usual hive of activity. As the interview moved on, we explored the concepts of neo-peasantry, community sufficiency, and how, as artists as family, they have turned art-form in an everyday expression of being by reimagining a life that is less dependent on the industrialised systems inherent in the infinite growth based system. I learnt so much during this interview and I was also beautifully challenged around my choices of veganism and being child-free as a response to the climate and ecological emergencies. They also shared their perspective on how modern growth based capitalism is closely interconnected with centuries of gender inequality – I particularly resonated with Patrick’s comparison of ‘toxic patriarchy’ with a monoculture of runaway blackberries. It is not the blackberries that are the problem but rather the lack of balance. We also compared travel notes. I have spent the last couple of months on post-lockdown freedom driving up and down the east coast in my LPG car, staying at airbnbs more often than I camped, and shopped at Woolies and Coles whenever I couldn’t find a local fruit and veg shop. So I was humbled to hear of Meg and Patrick’s cycle adventure to Cape York achieved on next to no money through free-camping and foraging. Just another example of their dedication to the planet. Now I am sure you are dying to find out more about Meg, Patrick, Woody, Zero and the powerhouse that is 'Artist as Family' - so here are a few linky links: Artist as Family blogpage Artist as Family YouTube channel (hundred of videos here with advice on just about anything and everything) My introduction to Patrick Jones when he delivered an online talk with Anitra Nelson (who I have previously interviewed) They made a VIDEO for their song Water! It is a must see (plus you get to hear the whole song) During the intro I referred to an article where the human made material world now outweighs the planet's biomass - if you're feeling like another cheerful bedtime read, look no further than here. P.S. we're running out of sand. What better way to deal with these frightening indicators than to keep building more shit. What could possibly go wrong........Special Guest: Artist as Family.

December the 09th marks ‘International Anti-Corruption Day’. This day was designated nearly 20 years ago by the ‘United Nations Convention against Corruption’ to raise awareness on corruption and its role in undermining democracy, stability and equity. Australia is no exception to this phenomena – one is hard pressed to find a major party politician who is NOT in bed with big business. If you want to be a state premier these days it is almost de riguer to have some scandal with some property developer or other. Since we all degree that ‘political favours’ are not exactly prime example of good leadership and altruism, why does this behaviour persist - over and over again, ad nauseum? PGAP host Michael Bayliss explores this further with Game of Mates co-author Dr Cameron Murray. As a former property developer, Cameron provides the perfect insight as to what goes on behind closed doors in the property development industry, and how political favours, gained over time, leads to a culture of favouritism – a ‘Game of Mates’ if you please. Speaking of which, if you haven’t read the book of the same name, do so NOW. Cameron writes just like he speaks, which is to say engaging and fascinating – edutainment at its best. It also makes for great exposure therapy. I always knew the property industry was…let’s say a little skewed, but reading this book made me stimmy with rage on more than one occasion. My discussion with Cameron was a great lesson for me in human psychology. I have often been frustrated why the community doesn’t rile against the property development industry more often – it is so rigged it is literally costing us billions of dollars a year and pricing out anyone out of the housing market who has the audacity to live on a five figure salary. But unlike the mining sector, which is full of eccentric Machiavellian villains, the property sector is conspicuously lacking (apart from the odd exception like Harry Triguboff). Generally speaking, property developers start of as well-meaning people who get caught up in a game of favouritism, wining and dining and rigging the system. Just like all of us do to some extent, they are simply looking out for their network of colleagues and friends, with a hefty dose of cognitive dissonance. Unlike the rest of us, however, this is done on a scale that undermines democracy, equity, housing affordability and wise town planning decision. The natural environment also goes down the gurgler. Individually, I learnt that property developers are often nice people. Collectively however, the culture has created a monster. Cameron also discusses his views on population policy, modern monetary theory, his unique perspectives on capitalism and neo-liberalism, and his commitment towards critical thinking and avoiding 'isms', even when this has sometimes lead to controversy and heated debates. I first met Cameron when filming his presentation "Economic Ageing Myths" at the forum hosted by Sustainable Population Australia in 2019. Since then, Sustainable Population has released a discussion paper on the ageing myth: "Silver tsunami or silver lining? Why we should not fear an ageing population." I am happy to share that the discssion paper has done very well since it launched in late October and has enjoyed good coverage in the print media. This thirteenth episode is the final in the first season of Post Growth Australia Podcast – I am really proud of where PGAP has gone since I started it in July. In many ways it has exceeded most of my expectations and listener feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. Thank you all for supporting and for listening – after all, if a podcast is broadcast and there is no-one to listen, did the pod actually get cast? That is the existential question that I don’t have to answer just yet as you have all taken to PGAP so kindly. I would like to give my thanks to Sustainable Population Australia for supporting this project – it would not have been possible without them being so willing to support a new project in good faith. I am taking a couple of months away to hit the road – 8 months of lockdown was a great way to get many projects started but the computer screen has long passed its novelty. As such, this interview is a little ‘low frills’ - no intro, outro, no humouring my questionable taste in music. Just a pithy, largely unedited discussion with Cameron – which given Cameron is such a great speaker, I think I just got away with it. Don’t agree? Send me a review on Apple podcast. Agree? Send me a review on Apple podcast. Don’t care either way? Send a review expressing your completely neutrality on Apple podcast or the contact form on this page. Otherwise, I look forward to a second season of pithy conversations on all things post-growth in the new year (assuming no total global apocalypse in the meantime – one can never be too certain). "Corruption is criminal, immoral and the ultimate betrayal of public trust. It is even more damaging in times of crisis – as the world is experiencing now with the COVID-19 pandemic. The response to the virus is creating new opportunities to exploit weak oversight and inadequate transparency, diverting funds away from people in their hour of greatest need." UN Secretary-General, António Guterres, Statement on corruption in the context of COVID-19Special Guest: Dr Cameron Murray.

Are you keen on the idea of permaculture but find the idea of starting an acreage in the country a bit much? Do your cortisone levels go through the roof whenever you see productive farmland being torn down for more cookie cutter suburbia? Are you baulking at the thought of perfectly good houses on your street being pulled down for battleship grey pre-fab concrete apartments? Would you prefer that you could do more things for yourself and with others at home rather than having everything outsourced for you at a price from the not-so-free market? According to David Holmgren, co-founder of permaculture, ‘Retrosuburbia’ can make all of this and more, a possibility. But what IS Retrosuburbia? Well, I suppose I could paraphrase it badly for you, or we could hear it straight from the co-founder of permaculture himself! Given that David Holmgren is a household name, especially in the environment movement, I am very honoured that he agreed to be interviewed for this podcast! David Holmgren co-founded the Permaculture movement in the 1970's together with Bill Mollison. David has written many books on the subject and continues to write and speak on permaculture, and alternatives to the growth based society that we currently find ourselves living in. This includes solutions to the high-rise versus suburban sprawl dichotomy that is so dominant in current urban planning mentality. This approach is a central premise of the Retrosuburbia movement, a movement which has culminated in a large and colourful bestselling book. This book appears ubiquitously in the book collection of many environmental enthusiasts and rightfully so as it makes for essential reading! In addition to exploring Retrosuburbia, David discusses the current predicaments and shortcomings that are inherent in the current system, such as inefficiency, waste, and erosion of community, the pressure and displacement of renters – not to mention the environmental toll. David explores his vision of a post-growth world in which the Retrosuburbia and Permaculture movements play a fundamental role. Following David Holmgren’s interview I invite Mark Allen, the founder of Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism to say a few words. Mark is a sustainable town planner and activist who is deeply committed to systemic change and how our towns and cities should adapt and evolve in a post-growth, post climate change world. Mark also encourages people to take a Holistic Activism approach to emotive topics such as population. His approach is to encourage nuanced discussion by looking for the common ground on those issues that underlie divisive topics such as, in the case of population, the need for systemic change, international mutual aid and the empowerment of women. If you are keen on exploring some of the ideas in this episode in greater depth, we recommend heading to Melliodora publishing. It is a small specialist publisher dedicated to producing a limited range of books and other media by David Holmgren, co-originator of permaculture, and other authors. Their titles 'aim to support individuals in their personal permaculture journeys'. The choice of song today is 'Grow A Garden' by 'Formidable Vegetable'. Formely known as 'Formidable Vegetable Sound System' their permaculture and system changed themed songs have been an inspiration and the soundtrack to many of our lives! If you ever get a chance to see them live, they are utterly mindblowing, in the meantime, you can listen and buy their music on Bandcamp.Special Guests: David Holmgren and Mark Allen.

Another month, another bunch of elections. In Australia, we’ve just had the ACT elections, QLD elections, and Victoria council elections. I think that’s it. Oh yeah, there’s a small North American country having a federal election counting ballots as we speak. You may have heard about it. Post-Growth still exists on the fringe and for most of us on the fringe voting can be a frustrating exercise choosing between who will lead us through several more years of growth on a finite planet. It can be even more frustrating for independents and minor parties who advocate for something better than the status quo – a seeming endless uphill climb full of long hours, campaign trails, etc. This being the case, is it better to opt out or opt in? PGAP host Michael Bayliss explores this question further with the Honourable Kelvin Thomson. Kelvin is a former member of the Labor party and since 1981 has been elected for local council, State Government and, from 1996 served as Federal member for the inner-north Melbourne electorate of Wills for two decades. Kelvin balanced longevity with a very unique and individual outlook that often put him at odds with mainstream politics. Kelvin was – and still is – an active champion for environmental conversation, campaigned against overdevelopment including the influence of property developers on political decisions, and perhaps most famously for his staunch position on population policy. This sometimes earned him the reputation as a ‘maverick’. I prefer to see it as rare integrity. Since retiring from Federal parliament in 2016 Kelvin is now Chief of Staff for Victorian MP Clifford Hayes of Sustainable Australia Party (SAP). Kelvin discusses with me his journey from Labor to SAP, the successes and challenges he faced during his time in and out of office and why there is a place for politics in promoting the post-growth cause. A qualifier: This podcast is made possible by Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) who are apolitical and therefore do not endorse any one political party. However, during this episode I highlighted several political parties and candidates who have policies that have some common ground with the post-growth movement. In addition to Sustainable Australia, you may be interested in finding out more about Animal Justice Party, Save The Planet Party, New Liberals (definitely not like old Liberals), Australian Democrats, and Craig Walters. Know of any others? Let us know! Speaking of Sustainable Population Australia, they recently released a discussion paper debunking the myths of an ageing population. Population sustainability is not always renowned for its cheeriness, however the discussion paper – “Silver tsunami or silver lining? Why we should not fear an ageing population” is not only a fantastic read but also quite upbeat. The discussion paper has enjoyed some positive media coverage the past week which is fantastic. You may also be interested in Kelvin's impassioned speech at SPA's 2019 AGM here. And speaking on contacting PGAP, please don’t be shy! Our contact form is here. Want to feedback on any of the episodes or want to share your own post-growth ideas? I’d love to hear from you. Do you frequent Apple Podcasts or Stitcher? Then please rate PGAP and leave a review. The more reviews, the more listeners – which means the more people stop wanting more. If you’ll excuse the Paradox…. The song of choice today is from Adelaide band ‘The Tangerines.’ To find out more about The Tangerines, visit their website here.Special Guest: THE HONOURABLE KELVIN THOMSON .