Post-Growth Australia Podcast

*Post Growth Australia Podcast travels to Animals Anonymous HQ in the Adelaide Hills to chat with Adrian Sherriff – wildlife demonstrator, native vegetation restorer, and co-host of the excellent Aussie Wildlife Show podcast. As a wildlife demonstrator, Adrian brings native mammals, reptiles and birds to schools, universities and other groups to provide kids and adults an up close and personal education on Australia’s unique and diverse animals. As co-host of Aussie Wildlife Podcast with Steve Crawford, he chats to a range of fascinating guests around everything wildlife and beyond. As someone who sees the bigger picture of human impact on this dry and ancient continent and the impact this has on other species, Adrian also shares with PGAP his vision of a Post-Growth future. * This is not the first time that a conversation between Adrian and I has been recorded! I first met Adrian back in 2018 on a prior visit to Adelaide where we bonded over Sustainable Population (it is actually possible to bond over this controversial issue – trust me!) Not only did we bond, I was also invited to talk exclusively on this issue as the (then) new Communications Manager for SPA. We recorded outside and the interview ended both abruptly and apocalyptically as a storm surged through toward the end. I took it as a sign of the times we are in! Adrian was the first person I contacted when I arrived back in Adelaide in March this year. My stay was only supposed to be ‘a couple of weeks’ - this turned out to be nearly six months in the end! Anyway, I was delighted when Adrian said an emphatic ‘yes’ to a return interview for PGAP. It was great to come back to the property and capture Adrian’s own thoughts issues such as population, degrowth, and what a different, more eco-centric society looks like for him. It was also a great opportunity to ask some questions around the ethics of domesticating native animals and the pros and cons around this. I have always found the conversations with fellow podcast hosts an extra blast and Adrian proves to be no exception. It was also a fantastic opportunity to meet with the animals at Animals Anonymous HQ and wander his property, including an impressive native vegetation restoration project. Below is me bonding with a python and overcoming my ophiophobia. A word of warning: For some reason my recording apparatus struggled with the numerous background sounds on the site of Adrian’s property and overcompensated by dipping in and out of volume throughout the discussion. From the technology's perspective, it was trying to do the right thing, but at the end of the day I have to give it an A for effort but an F for execution and for not consulting with me its intent. I spent days on manual ‘volume’ control editing to even out the worst of it but unfortunately it still sounds a bit shaky. Also – because I had to record the intro and outro before I left Adelaide, I had no idea of what music I was going to play for the episode so I didn’t say anything ‘on air.’ So let it be written that I’m honoured to be playing a track from local Adelaide musician and dear friend of mine Sean Tyner called ‘On The Streets.' I hope you all forgive me for the recording quirks on this occasion. I promise to make it up to you next time! And a couple of links before we say adieu: The Animals Anonymous website can be found here The Aussie Wildlife Show can be found here on Podbean. It can be found on many Podcast listening platforms. If you haven’t had enough of me rabbiting on and want to know what I sound like as an interview, my interview with Aussie Wildlife Show can be found here. Sean Tyner’s music can be found on his website here. Finally, thank you to Sustainable Population Australia for making PGAP possible. You may be interested in their new short video 'Let's rethink Big Australia' hereSpecial Guest: Adrian Sherriff.

Doone Wyborn is the founder of the Bindarrabi intentional community, inland and uphill of the northern rivers. A former geologist, he worked on the potential of Enhanced Geothermal Systems (EGS) geothermal energy from 1992 to retirement in 2013 and is recognised as a leading Australian authority on this subject. With his finger definitely on the pulse on environmental science and limits to growth, Doone started an intentional community based around community sufficiency, frugal abundance and low carbon living. On a very rainy summer afternoon, Doone shares with PGAP the ins and outs of Bindarrabi community, why societal collapse is a very real and current threat, and why intentional living away from the big capital cities is a very legitimate thing to do! This special travelogue episode of PGAP was recorded all the way back in January 2021. My car and I had left Melbourne after the second lockdown and we were enjoying the coastline of NSW when COVID started creeping into Sydney and Brisbane again. Originally I intended to only go as far north as Coffs Harbour, but as I couldn’t get back to Victoria, I received an invitation to stay for a week or so at in intentional community inland of the Northern Rivers, right on the border of Queensland and right near a town called ‘Woodenbong.’ I was intrigued and took up the offer. At Bindarrabi, I joined the residents at house meetings, communal dinners, gardening bees, path and wall building, and a lot of swimming during the warm days at the amazing water holes. Every single one of the amazing residents at Bindarrabi were incredibly gracious and made me feel right at home and part of a buzzing community. Toward the end of my stay, Doone and I impulsively agreed to record an interview, in a tin caravan come office during a heavy sub-tropical summer rainfall. I feel that this gives the interview a sense of place an intimacy. I’m not sure why I held onto this interview for so long, however the broadcast of this episode falls shortly after the sobering news of the new report by the IPCC. This is accidentally great timing, as Doone’s interview starts off with a tour of Bindarrabi before going deeper into a reflection of overshoot, collapse and environmental tipping points. Doon does not shy away from sharing his emotions and concerns as the interview progresses and indeed I feel compelled to give a slight disclaimer to be emotionally prepared before listening to this episode. The choice of music this episode is ‘No Easy Way Down’ from my own band ‘Shock Octopus.’ . Given the sobering news of the IPCC report and some of the discussions in this interview, I thought it would be quite thematically consistent to play a song that is about climate change from the perspective of a polar bear. ‘No Easy Way Down’ was released as a fundraiser single last year to raise funds for Extinction Rebellion. Following the episode, want to explore some more? Let these links be thine guide! The sixth assessment report of The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) can be read in full here. Given the future of existence depends in part on following these recommendations, I do agree taking the time to read in full. Otherwise, I like the summary from The Guardian here. The homepage for the Bindarrabi community can be found here. They are looking for new additions to their community if you’re feeling the call. Recently I spoke at Adelaide based Economic Reform Australia. I strongly recommend checking them out, they have a great newsletter full of economic critique articles. I was interviewed on Radio Adelaide Songcatcher and Mixtape programs to talks about the stories behind the songs with my decade long band Shock Octopus. If you’re tired of hearing me ramble about post-growth and would rather I ramble about another topic, these links are for you. A huge thanks to Sustainable Population Australia for making the podcast possible.Special Guest: Doone Wyborn.

World Population Day may now be a week behind us, but its legacy lives on! In this episode, host Michael Bayliss talks to the new Executive Director of World Population Balance, Nandita Bajaj. WPB is a North American organisation dedicated to tackling the overpopulation issue through education, campaigns and podcasts – they are the makers of the Overpopulation Podcast after all! Nandita and Michael discovered they have many shared values beyond population including minimalism, being childfree and, most excitingly for both of us, we are big on veganism and animal rights! Therefore, our conversation goes in many pithy directions and intersections. Nandita also shares with PGAP her visions for the future of World Population Balance, her perspectives on the challenges of inclusion and diversity within the population sustainability movement, and her experiences growing up in the world’s second most populous country India. I find it incredible that in 1 year, 24 episodes and 34 interviews I haven’t yet had the ‘vegan chat’ with any of my guests on PGAP. This all changed with Nandita! To celebrate this milestone, I play the song ‘Abolicion’ from the Peru/Melbourne pop-punk project, Futuro Vegan Pop. The lead brains behind this musical project, Pedro Allemant, is a long-time friend of yours truly and a total inspiration in the animal activism sphere. I even played keyboards on a couple of Futuro songs back in ye days afore the COVID when we never ‘ad it so good. I also share my interview on Australian Talk Back radio following the excitement, confusion and hostility in the mainstream media after Population Matters ‘Change Champions’ awards the other week. The media weren’t that interested in the Women’s Champion award that went to Wendo Aszed in Kenya, or Kohinur Khyum Tithila from Bangladesh who received the Media award. Rather, they were far more preoccupied with the special award given to the Duke and Duchess of Sussex who received a ‘special’ award for stopping at two children. Anything to do with Harry and Meghan has a peculiar effect on our collective psyche, and it raises the question, is it better to avoid the royals and receive little attention, or include the royals and receive a lot of mostly hostile media attention? A philosophical musing indeed that still troubles me… Too much podcasting barely enough for you? Want to explore more of the adventures (or in my case misadventures) that were raised during this episode? GLAD YOU ASKED! This is a fancy way of saying I'm about to bombard you with a bunch of links. It's all in the phrasing... Find out more about World Population Balance here.. If you haven't heard it yet, their The Overpopulation Podcast is a class act. WPB launched an online panel discussion: “Pronatalism and Overpopulation | Challenging The Social Pressures to Procreate” on the 07th of July for world population day, which Nandita discussed with me. On the day it was a bit late for Australian clocks, but the highlights can now be seen on WPB YouTube channel here. My interview with Tom Elliot on Melbourne’s 3AW Drive talk back radio is immortalised for all here. It doesn't include all the callers afterward who called me a moron, which is always such a shame. If you are interested in finding out more about Population Matters’ ‘Change Champions’ award, you can find it here. Interested in what Sustainable Population Australia had to say about World Population Day and why they believe the world cannot support another 2 billion people by 2050? This and more on their media release here. SPA's very own Dr. Jane O'Sullivan is very popular. Firstly she was interviewed on the award winning ‘This Sustainable Life’ podcast hosted by Joshua Spodeck. Jane debunks the ‘ageing population crisis’ myths with Joshua as they explore SPA’s discussion paper ‘Silver Tsunami or Silver Lining’ in which Jane was lead author. She was also a presneter at the World Population Day presentation and panel discussion –_ "What is a sustainable population? Why, when and what should we do about it?"_ This event was organised with Scientists Warning Europe, and a video of Jane's talk and the SWE media release can be found on the SPA website here. Find out more about Futuro Vegan Pop here You may be interested in listening to PGAP's last world population day special episode with SPA's John Coulter here. Last year we interviewed WPB's then ED Dave Gardner for our 2020 world population day special. Special Guest: Nandita Bajaj.

This episode of PGAP falls on World Population Day and is also PGAP’s first year anniversary! Instead of celebrating with balloons and confetti – because they’re bad for the environment – we mark the occasion instead by interviewing two very special guests. Dr. John Coulter, former leader of The Democrats and long term member of Sustainable Population Australia, looks back on an ad he posted on The Australia in 1971 calling for limits to growth – exactly 50 years ago. Host Michael Bayliss also talks with filmmaker Dubhaltagh O Hearcain of Nature’s Way Films, to discuss a brand new documentary on overpopulation ‘The Way To Live.’ Both interviewees call for a movement ‘beyond population’ towards a bigger picture of equity and living within the physical limits of the natural world. A gargantuan episode for gargantuan times. Meet John Coulter. Truly an elder for the post-growth movement who spent a good chunk of his past nine decades on earth as an activist for conservation, the environment and limits to growth. As a keen scientist, diver and environmental activist, he formed ZPG (Zero Population Growth) in the 1970s. John took his politics to parliament, where he was elected as a federal senator for The Democrats in the 80s and was briefly the leader of the party in the 90s. John has since been involved with Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) has tirelessly undertaken many roles within the national executive committee to this day. I caught up with John at his home in the Adelaide hills. It is an amazing heritage property with acres of preserved native bushland. Unfortunately, a bushfire came through the property a couple of month before we recorded the episode, leaving much of the land scarred. It was a sobering experience to walk through the property and a stark reminder that change is happening as society’s growth experiment hits the decade of consequence. John also showed me an advertisement he had printed in the Australian in 1971 which was titled: “To those who shape Australia’s destiny.” It goes on to say: “We believe that western technological society has ignored two basic facts: (1) The resources of planet earth are finite; (2) the capacity of the environment to renew resources that are used up and to repair the damage causes by the exploitation of those resources is limited and decreasing.” Signed by hundreds of esteemed scientists, John goes to share what has changed since the ad was published 50 years ago and what has stayed 'business as usual' due to the vested interests of big business, mainstream politicians and mainstream media. Meet Dubhaltagh O Hearcain of ‘Nature’s Way.’ From the USA, he has launched a new documentary on overpopulation, ‘The Way To Live.’ This documentary joins a (ha ha) growing parthenon of inspiring documentaries over the last few years which dare to focus on the limits to growth. ‘The Way To Live’ goes deeper to look to the cause roots of modern human psychology that result in us living beyond the planet’s physical means. With interviews with Dave Gardner, Karen Shragg and David Paxton from World Population Balance - as well as the inspiring FIGU community in Switzerland - Dubhaltagh shares the inner workings towards making this thought provoking film. I would like to take this opportunity to give my hats off to Sustainable Population Australia, who make this podcast possible and who have courage to support a project which goes beyond population to explore the wider world of post-growth. These have included discussions with interviewees who may not see eye to eye with SPA on the issue of overpopulation. After an entire year of their support, it was high time to focus an episode toward the amazing minds and talent that emanate from this amazing organisation. Population has recently come into the spotlights in the Australian media with the release of the federal government’s Intergenerational Report 2021. The IGR bemoaned that the closure of the borders since COVID are going to lead to an Ageing demographic nightmare. SPA wrote a media release in opposition to the claims by the IGR and the good news is that the media responded, with offers for interviews, references in opinion columns and published letters to the editor. SPA is also looking forward to supporting a conference on Sustainable Agriculture later in September. We’re crossing both hands behind our collective back to ward off another round of lockdown and PGAP will provide updates in the leadup to this impressive conference. Speaking of down under, it is also NAIDOC week and PGAP would like to pay respect to elders past, present an emerging on lands that were never ceded. PGAP recognises that First Nation contribution to a new post-growth world is critical, and we are proud to include two perspectives from two amazing Indigenous women here and here. What was that you say? 1 hour and 10 minutes of PGAP is just barely enough and you want to read up on more of the stuff raised in this episode? Well, glad you asked. What’s the UN saying about World Population Day 2021 anyway? Found out more here This is a fascinating biography on John Coulter’s political legacy. You can find out everything you need to know about the documentary ‘The Way to Live’ and ‘Nature’s Way’ website here. The Intergenerational Report 2021 can be found here. More importantly, SPA’s media release can be found here, and a summary of the community response to the media release here. Have I helped to make SPA sound like a good thing to you? It’s true! Like all good movements, they can only benefit from your support to a good cause. Find out more about supporting SPA here. Suggestions or feedback for PGAP as we enter our second year? Contact us here Want to be our 11th 5 star reviewer (or our first 1 star reviewer)? This and more on Apple Podcast hereSpecial Guests: Dubhaltagh O Hearcain and John Coulter.

In this episode of PGAP, host Michael Bayliss talks to Dr. Ted Trainer from The Simpler Way. And what is the simpler way? Is it a descent into sacrifice, frugality and deprivation? Or is it a systemic change away from a wasteful, globalised growth based economic system towards localised self-sufficiency, self-governance, lives of leisure and reconnection with the natural world? Ted reassures us to much relief that it is definitely the latter! The previous three ‘Tasmanian Perspectives’ episodes of PGAP included interviews with amazing people doing amazing local projects in amazing practical ways within their local communities. While this was all very encouraging, some of the interviewees also expressed some grave concerns for the future for the planet and our well-being. From my perspective, it was great to follow these interviews up with one of my heroes, Dr. Ted Trainer, who provides a broad picture theoretical framework to the many exciting transition projects already happening at the grass roots.He also shares a sense of cautious optimism to the seismic shift in collective consciousness since he began advocating for limits to growth in the 70s. After the interview, I reflect a little on my own personal journey over the last 10 years in intentional communities, permaculture projects, urban gardening project and system change organisations. I reflect on the many positives and ‘wins’ for the communities, as well as the challenges as we try to relearn how to live and work together in community in balance with the rigours and demands of the current, modern society. I also keep everyone up to date with one of my favourite love/hate obsessions, that being the utter ridiculousness of the housing market. Normally I’d apologise for using a public soapbox as a therapeutic catharsis tool, but given my many conversations with people on this issue, I somehow don’t think I’m just speaking for myself here! Did you enjoy the interview with Ted Trainer and want to find out more? Glad you asked! A link to The Simpler Way can be found here and here A link to The Simplicity Institute can be found here. Ted has a profile page here To find out more about Ted himself, he has a Wikipedia page I really love his book Transition to a Sustainable and Just World The transition town movement was discussed in the interview. Find out more at the Transition Network Paul Ehrlich is an inspiration to Ted Trainer and to Sustainable Population Australia who support this Podcast (Thanks SPA!). Find out more about Erlich’s pioneering work here. There was an article in the Scientific American bunking growth based economics. Essential reading here In the intro I mentioned the shortage of timber. Read more about that here *Like PGAP? Thoughts, feedback? * Write to us on our contact page here Why not jump right down the rabbit hole and subscribe here? If you’re feeling up to a review, please rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast here Share this podcast wildly with your friends, family, colleagues and networks. PGAP would like to thank Sustainable Population Australia for supporting this podcast, and for allowing a platform to explore the broader post-growth landscape.Special Guest: Ted Trainer.

For PGAP’s third and final episode on Tasmanian Perspectives, host Michael Bayliss returns back to the Northwest to with Caroline Smith and Kirk Hall. Caroline and Kirk share their reasons for relocating from the mainland and why a future of ditching rampant consumption and returning to a life of voluntary simplicity, local communities, permaculture and degrowth are critical – not only for Tasmania – but anywhere and everywhere! Caroline Smith is an educator, permaculturist and co-editor of “Permaculture Pioneers: stories from the new frontier” with Kerry Dawborn. She now resides in Penguin and can often be seen engaged with the local community at Penguin’s Reseed Centre or Wynyard’s Live Well Tasmania centre. Caroline very warmly accepted me into her community and her home for my brief stay in Tasmania and I really felt the kinship and hospitality of a kindred, likeminded spirit! I was delighted that she agreed to share her journey in making the leap across the Bass Strait as well as many of her world views and perspectives. Kirk Hall is committed environmentalist and Degrowth activist who is the moderator of the Facebook page ‘Degrowth It’s Urgent’ and ‘Degrowth – Join the Revolution’ group among several other groups. He is also launching a ‘Tiny House Orchard’ near Devonport and is writing a movie script on Degrowth. No rest for the wicked! Having known Kirk for years on social media, it was so great to meet with one of my social media colleagues in person! Between the two interviews we welcome back the permaculture themed band ‘Formidable Vegetable’ for their track ‘Small and Slow’ from the album ‘Permaculture: A Rhymer’s Manual.’ This is a perfect soundtrack to the interviews on today’s episode. Given that Friday the 05th of June is World Environment Day, it is so essential that guests such as Caroline and Kirk can continue to do what they do best – lead by example for local, lower impact communities full of community and food and without all the materialism, carbon and needless growth on a finite planet. This wraps it up for the ‘Tasmanian Perspectives’ series. The community response to the series so far has been spectacular. PGAP enjoyed double the average number of listens over the course of May and the downloads have been steadily increasing all year. Did you know that ListenNotes now rates PGAP as in the TOP 10% of podcast series worldwide! This is just incredible. Long may this continue! (Until we’ve achieved the Degrowth dream so this podcast is no longer needed, of course!) If you are interested in finding out more about Caroline's fantastic work and legacy, there are several links to her work in her Guest profile bio. Krik Hall also runs (at least) three other Facebook groups, Degrowth - Population, Degrowth - Housing and Degrowth - Agriculture. If you are interested in finding out more about the Tiny House Orchard project, there is a Facebook group here Rough time stamp: Intro - 00:11 - 03:04 Caroline - 03:13 - 39:15 Music - 39:16 - 43:02 Kirk - 43:03 - 72:30 Outro - 72: 42 - endSpecial Guests: Caroline Smith and Kirk Hall.

"Degrowth is happening whether we like it or not" - Michel Stasse In the 'Tasmanian Perspectives’ series, PGAP host Michael Bayliss travels around the Apple Isle to interview Post-Growth mainlanders who have resettled in Tasmania and to discuss their reasons why. In this episode, I travel to the Huon Valley to meet with Michel Stasse, long-time Degrowth advocate, founder of the 'Damn The Matrix' blog and DIO superhero who self-built an impressive self-sufficient, off-grid eco home in the Huon Valley. Mike kindly took some time aside for giving me a tour of his home where the on-site interview took place and discussed with me his reasons for moving from Queensland to Tasmania. We then discuss his life journey towards understanding limits to growth, standing for politics in Queensland, to his current advocacy for Degrowth and his reasons why electric cars and the green new deal won’t save us. I interviewed Mike in February on a hot day for Tasmania - mid 30s - and the day in which Australia endured the Facebook kerfuffle, including the removal of content from Australian activist groups and organisations. As such, there was a whiff of apocalypse already in the air, and during the interview Mike certainly doesn't mince words as he takes us somewhere down the deep end. So a 'health warning’ for anyone expecting a utopian outlook for this episode. Also a slight 'sound warning’ - the episode was recording on site in a dynamic living environment so there is the occasional background sound during the interview. The intro and outro are recorded in my current house-sit in Adelaide, which is right near a main road and right near an operational quarry. So there is the occasional background traffic rumble. Some may call it unfortunate recording conditions - I prefer to call it 'character.' Anyone listening who would prefer pristine recording conditions is always more than welcome to buy me a house somewhere nice ANYTIME. Did this episode scratch the surface leaving you wanting more? Want to find out more about Mike Stasse or Professor Ian Lowe, who is mentioned in my discussions with Mike and who I include an interview excerpt at the start of the episode? Well I'm glad you asked! The blog 'Damn The Matrix’ can be found here Michel discusses peak oil (and other fun things!) on YouTube here I interviewed Professor Ian Lowe as part of Sustainable Population Australia's 'meet our patrons' video series that can be found on the YouTube channel here. Excerpts from that interview were played at the start of this episode. More information on Ian Lowe can be found on the SPA website here. Also....if you liked the music track of choice Epi-Primate, I am relived that the band Heytesburg still have a presence on BandCamp here, even though they are on indefinite hiatus. I can't believe this track is almost a decade old now.Special Guest: Michael Stasse.

The ‘Tasmanian Perspectives’ series of PGAP examines the lives, projects and perspectives of Post-Growth game changers who have left the mainland to start a new life in Tasmania. What made them decide to jump the Bass Strait? How is it all working out for them? Should you follow by example and make the move yourself? For the first episode, PGAP had the absolute pleasure of chatting with Tania Brookes from the Reseed Centre in Penguin. Tania Brookes is an indigenous Maori woman living on Palawa country in lutruwita, Tasmania, Australia. Currently Tania is the Administrator for the Community Exchange Network Tasmania (CENTs) and is co Administrator for the national Community Exchange System in Australia covering LETS, Community Currency and Time Banking groups around Australia. Tania is a permaculture practitioner/educator affiliated with the RESEED Centre and Live Well Tasmania in northwest Tasmania. Tania discusses with me her reasons for moving to Tasmania from suburban Melbourne and the wonderful community she is now part of in the northwest. She shares her insightsof how the welcoming Tasmanian spirit in smaller, more intimate towns creates a culture of stronger community and giving. We discuss the joys and challenges of being involved in the broader permaculture community, and where permaculture ethics intersect with indigenous values of connection and care for country. We explore the role of spirituality to reconnect with the earth and each other, and finally, Tania shares her vision for change in regards to town planning and the growth based economy more broadly. I had an absolute blast talking to Tania – her care for people, community and place are really on show throughout our discussion. I would like to thank Tania for inviting me to her home and for letting me rearrange her living room to fit all my ridiculous over the top recording equipment! When I arrived she played for me a beautiful piece of local music, ‘My Mother the Mountain’ from Claire Anne Taylor. I was taken so much by the beauty of the song and Claire’s unique expressive voice. With Claire’s permission, I play this track at the end of the interview, as I believe it perfectly encapsulates the connection to family, community and place that were core values discussed in this interview. This interview was made possible by support from Holistic Activism and Town Planning Rebellion. Also a shout out to SPA for making PGAP possible. _PGAP wishes to acknowledge and pay respect to the Tasmanian Aboriginal people as the traditional and original owners, and continuing custodians of this land on which this episode was recorded and acknowledge Elders – past, present and emerging. _ Did you enjoy this episode and would like to explore more? The Reseed Centre in Penguin is an incredible community hub. Click here to find out more I also had the privilege to visit Live Well Tasmania in Wynyard, also doing incredible things. Tania Brookes is the administrator for Community Exchange Network Tasmania (CENT) – find out more about their great work here. Claire Anne Taylor’s ‘My Mother, The Mountain’ has nearly 21 000 views on YouTube! Help give her OVER 21 000 views by clicking here. You can also buy her music at her website here. We name-checked Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism in this episode, who helped make this interview possible. Check them out. Liked this episode of PGAP? You might like…. My interview with Prof. Anne Poelina, Nyikina Warrwa Traditional Owner, gives insight into a First Nation perspective on connection and care for country which I felt resonated with many of Tania’s own insights. Artist as Family explores a family who moved to rural Victoria to live a life a voluntary simplicity and foster a strong local community gift economy connection. Finally, if you’re here because of the permaculture, you can’t go past my interview with David Holmgren! Want to connect more with PGAP? You can contact us here Subscribe to us here I'm pretty sure that a link the episode on Apple Podcast can be found here Until next time!Special Guest: Tania Brookes.

How does a society know when enough is enough and it is time to stop growing, developing, consuming? How does a society know when it has ‘arrived’ and doesn’t need to keep striving for more? How does a society know when it hasn’t yet 'arrived' and where further material growth is still, on balance, a good idea? What are the ceiling limits to look out for? Well, who better to come to my rescue on this philosophical quagmire of a question than Dr. Katherine Trebeck, co-Author of "The Economics of Arrival: Ideas for a Grown-Up Economy." In addition to being a star class writer, Katherine is Senior Strategic Advisor for the Wellbeing Economy Alliance – a global collaboration she co-founded in 2018, the same year she co-founded WEAll Scotland. Before then, she had a prodigious history with Oxfam. She is also one of those people who have given a talk for TedX and amassed over 65 000 views. Impressed yet? However, as I live a very sheltered and insular life, I first came across Katherine Trebeck when I stumbled upon the Melbourne book launch of 'Economics of Arrival' (which she co-wrote with the equally impressive Jeremy Williams) almost by accident. I was meeting up for drinks with fellow post-growth activists who talked me into coming along to the book launch. I was immediately blown away by Katherine's speech at the event and bought the book on the spot. I don't know HOW Katherine and Jeremy did it, but they achieved the almost impossible: they wrote a full-length book about economics and made it an incredibly interesting and absorbing read. I normally read ‘topical’ books only when necessary for my work, but I remember in October 2019 flipping through the pages eagerly on the tram every day on the way to the week-long Extinction Rebellion actions. The book provided a fantastic big-picture perspective on how a better world could look like. This proved to be a great motivator to begin a day's worth of protesting! Katherine's humanity, curiosity and sense for social justice shines through every page in 'Economics Of Arrival' just as it does when I spoke with her, a year and a half later on PGAP. The choice of muzak today is 'Ticonderoga' by Melbourne art-rock duo 'Privateer'. This can all be found on their branch new EP "Winter's Dream." . So sit back, enjoy the discussion and if, after the interview, you feel you still haven't arrived and are hankering for more of Katherine's great work: Dr. Katherine Trebeck's website can be found here. The 'Economics of Arrival’ can be bought here. Why the Future Economy has to be a Wellbeing Economy | Katherine Trebeck | TEDxMünche - this video has merely received 65,114 YouTube views. Make sure you're number 65, 115! Katherine is co-founder of the Wellbeing Economy Alliance. Anyone who loves post-growth will adore WEAll so check them out now! IF YOU LIKED THIS EPISODE OF PGAP YOU MAY ALSO LIKE: Post Growth Institute with Robert Wanalo - Robert is a member of WEAll (just like Katherine!) and a member of Post-Growth Institute (just like Katherine's co-author Jeremy Williams!) In the wrap-up to the interview, I made some observations on contrasting opinions to fellow author Karen Shragg , who I interviewed just one episode ago. Worth checking out to draw out your own comparisons! If you are interested in a global south perspective on family planning and population sustainability, my interview with Ugandan born Florence Blondel is probably still my favourite of all the conversations on PGAP so far.Special Guest: Dr Katherine Trebeck.

Why does modern society persist in pursuing its endless growth experiment when it is so obvious that this is unsustainable? Why is modern neo-liberalism so resistant to change even when the writing is so clearly on the wall? PGAP talks to environmentalist, naturalist, educator, poet and author of new book “Change Our Stories, Change Our World” – Karen Shragg. Karen, who lives in the USA, discusses several of the modern myths and stories detailed in her new book from greed, inequality, religion, anthropocentrism, and the topic to which she focuses the majority of her activism and advocacy – overpopulation. Karen Shragg member of the advisory board of the non-profit “World Population Balance”, and “Earth Overshoot”. I remember being first impressed by Karen’s public speaking when she spoke at the COP25 Madrid panel on Overpopulation and Climate Change, along with Portugal’s João Abegão, who I have also interviewed on a season 1 episode of PGAP. Karen’s capacity to speak to the facts in a colourful, personable and emotional way was on full display at the COP25 panel and also very reflective on the way she writes on environmental issues. That the YouTube video has nearly 18 000 views is a testament. Karen is a stellar communicator for Children and Adults alike. This is evident in the children’s series of books that she co-wrote, ‘Nature’s Yucky’. It is also evident in her fantastic book ‘Move Upstream: A Call To Solve Overpopulation' and her poignant ‘Move Upstream’ blog. However, it is Karen’s latest publication ‘Change our Stories, Change Our World’ which if the focus of this episode of PGAP. A short concise and very manageable book at around 80 pages, ‘Change our Stories, Change Our World’ nevertheless manages to cover much stomping ground, challenging six sticky world views that most of us in society hold, which Karen believes hold the stories which we use to justify business as usual human expansion at the expense of the natural world. My aim was to structure the interview around asking Karen a question around each of the chapter topics. Which I sort of managed to do so despite my usual tangents and distractions. Karen makes this a very engaging and dynamic conversation and I hope you enjoy! The issue of population has again become topical in Australia, as the mainstream media has reported that the country's population has been shrinking since the COVID induced closure of our borders. This is not entirely true - we've had a quarterly decline, but a modest annual increase of population growth. This is, however, much lower than in previous years and has resulted in panic and calls to return to normal ASAP from many in the economic, big business and demographic communities. Well known demographer Dr Liz Allen, for example, was recently interviewed on the ABC to advocate for a return to previous levels of economic migration to avoid apparent economic and demographic disasters. This time, however, Sustainable Population Australia - who kindly support this podcast - were invited to speak on ABC Radio Sydney to provide a counterview to these concerns. For anyone concerned about Australia’s population growth OR about alternatives to growth as usual, hopefully this is a promising sign for many more future on-air discussions. More information regarding the interview can be found on the SPA website here along with a recent media release from SPA that can be found here. But enough about us. Want to find out more about Karen Shragg? Click here for her website 'Moving Upstream'. There you can find her bio, blog, bibliography, and anything else starting with the letter B! She had an opinion piece recently published in the Boston Herald: 'Immigration growth is an environmental issue' If you haven't had enough of Karen's dulcet tones on podcast form, her interview with Rewilding Earth is excellent. I've already linked it, but I just think the whole Cop25 Madrid panel where Karen spoke is just the bee's knees. Finally, did you forget to buy her new book ‘Change our Stories, Change Our World’? Shame on you! Fix this right now by following this link to Amazon (never thought I'd be plugging Amazon but we live in strange times!)Special Guest: Karen Shragg.