Post-Growth Australia Podcast

Are you keen on the idea of permaculture but find the idea of starting an acreage in the country a bit much? Do your cortisone levels go through the roof whenever you see productive farmland being torn down for more cookie cutter suburbia? Are you baulking at the thought of perfectly good houses on your street being pulled down for battleship grey pre-fab concrete apartments? Would you prefer that you could do more things for yourself and with others at home rather than having everything outsourced for you at a price from the not-so-free market? According to David Holmgren, co-founder of permaculture, ‘Retrosuburbia’ can make all of this and more, a possibility. But what IS Retrosuburbia? Well, I suppose I could paraphrase it badly for you, or we could hear it straight from the co-founder of permaculture himself! Given that David Holmgren is a household name, especially in the environment movement, I am very honoured that he agreed to be interviewed for this podcast! David Holmgren co-founded the Permaculture movement in the 1970's together with Bill Mollison. David has written many books on the subject and continues to write and speak on permaculture, and alternatives to the growth based society that we currently find ourselves living in. This includes solutions to the high-rise versus suburban sprawl dichotomy that is so dominant in current urban planning mentality. This approach is a central premise of the Retrosuburbia movement, a movement which has culminated in a large and colourful bestselling book. This book appears ubiquitously in the book collection of many environmental enthusiasts and rightfully so as it makes for essential reading! In addition to exploring Retrosuburbia, David discusses the current predicaments and shortcomings that are inherent in the current system, such as inefficiency, waste, and erosion of community, the pressure and displacement of renters – not to mention the environmental toll. David explores his vision of a post-growth world in which the Retrosuburbia and Permaculture movements play a fundamental role. Following David Holmgren’s interview I invite Mark Allen, the founder of Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism to say a few words. Mark is a sustainable town planner and activist who is deeply committed to systemic change and how our towns and cities should adapt and evolve in a post-growth, post climate change world. Mark also encourages people to take a Holistic Activism approach to emotive topics such as population. His approach is to encourage nuanced discussion by looking for the common ground on those issues that underlie divisive topics such as, in the case of population, the need for systemic change, international mutual aid and the empowerment of women. If you are keen on exploring some of the ideas in this episode in greater depth, we recommend heading to Melliodora publishing. It is a small specialist publisher dedicated to producing a limited range of books and other media by David Holmgren, co-originator of permaculture, and other authors. Their titles 'aim to support individuals in their personal permaculture journeys'. The choice of song today is 'Grow A Garden' by 'Formidable Vegetable'. Formely known as 'Formidable Vegetable Sound System' their permaculture and system changed themed songs have been an inspiration and the soundtrack to many of our lives! If you ever get a chance to see them live, they are utterly mindblowing, in the meantime, you can listen and buy their music on Bandcamp.Special Guests: David Holmgren and Mark Allen.

Another month, another bunch of elections. In Australia, we’ve just had the ACT elections, QLD elections, and Victoria council elections. I think that’s it. Oh yeah, there’s a small North American country having a federal election counting ballots as we speak. You may have heard about it. Post-Growth still exists on the fringe and for most of us on the fringe voting can be a frustrating exercise choosing between who will lead us through several more years of growth on a finite planet. It can be even more frustrating for independents and minor parties who advocate for something better than the status quo – a seeming endless uphill climb full of long hours, campaign trails, etc. This being the case, is it better to opt out or opt in? PGAP host Michael Bayliss explores this question further with the Honourable Kelvin Thomson. Kelvin is a former member of the Labor party and since 1981 has been elected for local council, State Government and, from 1996 served as Federal member for the inner-north Melbourne electorate of Wills for two decades. Kelvin balanced longevity with a very unique and individual outlook that often put him at odds with mainstream politics. Kelvin was – and still is – an active champion for environmental conversation, campaigned against overdevelopment including the influence of property developers on political decisions, and perhaps most famously for his staunch position on population policy. This sometimes earned him the reputation as a ‘maverick’. I prefer to see it as rare integrity. Since retiring from Federal parliament in 2016 Kelvin is now Chief of Staff for Victorian MP Clifford Hayes of Sustainable Australia Party (SAP). Kelvin discusses with me his journey from Labor to SAP, the successes and challenges he faced during his time in and out of office and why there is a place for politics in promoting the post-growth cause. A qualifier: This podcast is made possible by Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) who are apolitical and therefore do not endorse any one political party. However, during this episode I highlighted several political parties and candidates who have policies that have some common ground with the post-growth movement. In addition to Sustainable Australia, you may be interested in finding out more about Animal Justice Party, Save The Planet Party, New Liberals (definitely not like old Liberals), Australian Democrats, and Craig Walters. Know of any others? Let us know! Speaking of Sustainable Population Australia, they recently released a discussion paper debunking the myths of an ageing population. Population sustainability is not always renowned for its cheeriness, however the discussion paper – “Silver tsunami or silver lining? Why we should not fear an ageing population” is not only a fantastic read but also quite upbeat. The discussion paper has enjoyed some positive media coverage the past week which is fantastic. You may also be interested in Kelvin's impassioned speech at SPA's 2019 AGM here. And speaking on contacting PGAP, please don’t be shy! Our contact form is here. Want to feedback on any of the episodes or want to share your own post-growth ideas? I’d love to hear from you. Do you frequent Apple Podcasts or Stitcher? Then please rate PGAP and leave a review. The more reviews, the more listeners – which means the more people stop wanting more. If you’ll excuse the Paradox…. The song of choice today is from Adelaide band ‘The Tangerines.’ To find out more about The Tangerines, visit their website here.Special Guest: THE HONOURABLE KELVIN THOMSON .

The Federal budget was made public on October 2006 with the usual disappointment we have come to expect from the coalition government (well from both major parties really). So what SHOULD the budget have looked like as we enter into the pandemic flecked decade of consequence? Host Michael Bayliss talks to Leith van Onselen to find out what a sensible economic response during these trying times OUGHT to look like. Leith van Onselen writes relentlessly as The Unconventional Economist at the blog site MacroBusiness, one of the more successful fringe media sites in Australia (and by 'fringe' we mean 'not owned by Murdoch and yet still surviving'). Speaking of mainstream media, Leith is so far the only guest (or host) ever to have appeared on The Bolt Report and The Today Show. Now before we get too alarmed, I argue that this is not because Leith is a covert neoliberal but rather his communication style is such that his unconventional economics can appeal to a broad mainstream audience. During the interview we find out why Leith is, indeed, an 'unconventional' economist and conclude that, indeed, this is because he is at heart just like to rest of us. He wants to see an end to deregulated neoliberal growth that benefits the few at the expense of the many. Instead, he would like to see more leisure, community, well-being, lower consumption and more considered frugality. Leith would also like to see an end to Australia's high rate of population growth that have been boosted through higher levels of economic migration over the last two decades which has seen his home city of Melbourne climb from 3.5 to over 5 million in under 20 years. This is an ‘unconventional’ position that tends to be unpopular with both big business and the left, however we love to put population under the microscope on PGAP, so we explore this issue further with Leith. Leith informs us on the fiscal policy that the government should take in the difficult decade of recession that lies ahead (as it turned out in the October 06 budget, the government didn't really follow Leith's advice). I begin the episode by sharing my take on the budget and end the episode by giving my take on a recent article that aims some criticism at Degrowth advocates (from an author to which I was not expecting this from). It comes down to the fact that there is a bit of an argument in economics land: IS it possible to have GDP growth without physical growth that requires resource extraction? Or in other words, is it possible to decouple economic growth from environmental destruction? What are your thoughts? Can we decouple our way out of our problems or is this just wishful thinking? Please let me know your thoughts by clicking the contact tab on this website and let me know if you would like your opinion broadcast on the next episode. For those who like links: Leith lead a discussion paper for Sustainable Population Australia titled:** Population growth and Infrastructure in Australia: the catch-up illusion** the link can be found here The song of choice today was from my own band 'Shock Octopus’ entitled 'In A Box'. Thematically it brings an old Malvina Reynold song into the apartment/compartment world of the 21st Century. Musically it is Talking Heads meets rock/rap, but hopefully better than that sounds. Link here. an exerpt of the song ended up at the 'Theme' to the SPA crowdfunded series 'Tough Crowd'.Special Guest: Leith van Onselen.

In the second part of the 'spirituality special' of PGAP, we interview Jim Villarreal of Gold Cap Integration Network to discuss that healing the world means healing the internal traumas that lie within us all. We also explore an exciting new movement called Holistic Activism which is seeking to bring together activism and mindful practices. () Jimmy and I reunite after many adventures spanning the globe from Amazonian Peru to the Victorian Gippsland to discuss how the state of the world is in part informed by our conditioning and traumas. Jimmy shares his personal story of leaving behind a successful sales career in corporate America to start a brave new journey in assisting people with emotional and spiritual healing. We discuss how a transition to a better, post-growth world must at some point come from a place of internal transformation. I also play a selection from a brand new guided mediation from Holistic Activism, designed for us activists in mind - but accessible to anyone and everyone. Holistic Activism is about 'reducing conflict among activists and creating campaigns that are long lasting while also reaching out and connecting with people who have different values to that of our own'. The aim is to do this in a manner that does not enable us to continue to repeat the mistakes of history. Holistic Activism is Australian based and currently maintains an online connection and presence during lockdown. The meditation is narrated by Holistic Activism founder Mark Allen and I share it with his permission and blessing. We play a six minute extract of the full 16.5 minute Guided Meditation but the entire meditation can be found on the HA Soundcloud channel here. As the meditation is aimed at putting you into a calm and relaxed space, it might not be best to listen to this podcast while driving.Special Guest: Jim Villarreal.

Many times on PGAP we have discussed how critical it is to live in a way that is Ecocentric rather than Anthropocentric. To decolonise our economies and societies so they are living within the laws of nature rather than trying to dominate the natural world. So what needs to change and how to we facilitate this change? Do we rally against corporations, governments, capitalism and neoliberalism? Or do we need to stop changing the cruel churning world and work to shift our cruel churning minds caught in trauma, language, concepts and judgement? Can one even separate one without the other? If my observations are correct, these distinctions have been crumbling in recent years. The political left are starting to realise that infighting over diminishing points of different has led to bitterness, resentment and burnout. Meanwhile not a lot has changed – the corporations still call the shots at the relentless expense of the natural world. Activists are looking for other ways. ‘Holistic Activism’, which advocates for collaboration, rather than conflict, is an example of one such movement. Meanwhile, those in the ‘spirituality movement’ have started to become more politically engaged. (‘Spirituality’ being a - ha ha - broad church but for ease of reference I refer to those who engage in Taoism, Non-Duality, Shamanism and Neo-shamanism, Zen and Buddhism etc.) The response to COVID, particularly from the Victorian state government, has led to a new degree of activism within the community. Some of the same pitfalls that have befallen environmental activists, such as division and clashing over social media, have begun to emerge. In this episode, I try to make a sense of recent events by talking to Darpan, a wise and incredibly experienced practitioner with decades of experience as a teacher, therapist, councillor, sound healer and facilitator of shamanic retreats. As an active person who has always struggled to sit still, I allow myself to be challenged on Darpan’s perspective that indeed, we CAN’T change the system without changing ourselves. Indeed, the universe is a vastly more complex place than our senses and minds can ever conceptualise - perhaps there is a astral world of spiritual events taking place whether our rationalistic brains like it or not. () For those coming in to here from a system change angle, some of Darpan’s perspectives may be challenging. For those coming here who are fans of Darpan, you may find MY questions to him and my perspectives at the end of the interview uncomfortable. This need not be a bad thing – let this be a test of different perspective coming together to find common ground. If anything, this is the one thing that may get us out of the mess we’re in. During the Podcast I refer to Alan Watts - the video almost broke me! and the documentaries Esteem, My Octopus Teacher, and Living in the Time of Dying. In my own bias this is essential viewing. We are also graced by a stunning, beautiful meditative track from Melbourne artist Belinda Wickens entitled ‘She Comes’. Thank you so much for being part of this Podcast Belinda.Special Guest: Darpan.

Degrowth? What does it mean? Is it about austerity and deprivation? Or is it about community, collaboration and unshackling ourselves from the matrix of the growth economy into a world that is more equitable, liveable and sustainable? According to Anitra Nelson – definitely the latter! Anitra Nelson is an author, scholar and activist. She is passionate about the degrowth movement in addition to alternatives in restructuring the ways in which we live and relate to each other. Particularly, co-housing, shared living and localised economies and governance. During this interview, we discuss two important books of wisdom that Anitra has delivered to the world. Anitra was just launching “Small Is Necessary: Shared Living on a Shared Planet” when we first met in early 2018. At the time of this episode’s broadcast, Anitra has released “Exploring Degrowth: A Critical Guide” – a book that she has co-written with Vincent Liegey and has published through Pluto Press. Both excellent books are covered in the interview. In addition, Anitra provides a very detailed and eloquent description of what life might look like in a degrowth world where localised governance and shared community living is the norm and not the exception. Following the interview, I discuss some of my experiences and reflections on community shared living. I discuss the Retrosuburbia movement, linked here to find out more. There are so many positives to shared living and we need to see more of this if we are to pull the breaks on bad urban planning outcomes that are shaping our cities and towns for the worse. However, shared living comes with many challenges that perhaps not all of us are ready or willing to jump into just yet. Just as important (in my opinion) is to unite on a broader scale reform of the town planning system, so that housing can be built around the many different needs of the diverse people who live in our towns and cities. Not just for the growthist and profit driven mentality of property developers. As such, it is worth checking out movements that are challenging the ‘big picture’ such as Town Planning Rebellion. Another pithy episode with much (locally grown?) food for thought!Special Guest: Anitra Nelson.

For the 06th episode of Post Growth Australia Podcast, we thought it was prime time to connect with the Post Growth Institute (PGI) themselves. After all, no post-growth advocate worth their salt should go through life without connecting with this wonderful, tireless hub of connectors and game changers at some point. Being the incredible international networkers they are, PGAP had the opportunity to speak with their Partnerships Manager, Kenyan born and raised Robert Wanalo. Host Michael Bayliss takes us on a trip down memory lane – my nostalgic reminiscence probably induced by my cabin fever lockdown delirium – humour me. Firstly I recall the time I first discovered the Post Growth Institute through the Post Growth Alliance. It was during a time when I first came across ‘limits to growth’ and ‘financial collapse’ in a big way through the work of Richard Heinberg and Nicole Foss (links at the bottom). I joined the Melbourne based Doing It Ourselves on the basis of their actual hit video What The Economic Crisis Really Means – And What We Can Do About It. Within weeks of joining DIO I was their international liaison coordinator and instantly mesmerised by the sheer number of dedicated groups and organizations in the international sphere who were making post-growth a (ha ha) GROWING reality and not just a theoretical dream. It was a pleasure to share their campaigns across DIO’s social media networks at a time when DIO was still active. I therefore thank PGI (or blame on a bad day – just kidding) for setting me on this particular activist branch. Another trip down memory lane was back in 2007 when I lived and worked in Kenya. I set off as a recently graduated student, with barely more than $1000 in my bank account and this being my first experience in any real interaction with the Global South. I went straight in the deep end, living and working in a small village on the less visited south-west corner of Kenya, where I laughed, cried, jumped in joy and went completely mad in a completely wild ride with some of the most gorgeous people and communities I have ever met in my life. Looking back, this was a rite of passage like none other. It so happens that Robert Wanalo was practically my neighbour during that time who lived in an adjacent village. How’s that for two formative experiences coming together full circle! It is an utter pleasure to connect with Robert. During the interview, he provides a unique perspective on post-growth in action through the lens of the Global South and more specifically, as it applies to Africa and Kenya. Within in the Post-Growth movement where so much of what we do is based around international collaboration, the interview with Robert highlights the importance that all perspective from around the world are critical. Indeed, as the Global North has been so instrumental in force-feeding inequitable, growth obsessed capitalism across the world over the last few centuries, so much of the wisdom for healing the world an ourselves is already there in the Global South – if we are all willing to listen. Robert impressed with how greatly read and connected he is, I have made an attempt to link some of the groups, people and books he refers to throughout his interview. In fact, Robert is so well connected to people and place, that he was interviewed within a thriving hub with children, families, animals and the odd Matatu in the background. So, while I applied some noise filters to the interview, it may sound busy at times. The positive reframe is that this is what a thriving melting pot of community in action sounds like! Moving forward, keep a lookout for PGI’s ‘Free Money Day’ on September 15th. Once again, PGI prove themselves to be the masters of ‘edutainment’, making a fun exercise out of the act of passing on money to complete strangers whilst reflecting on the ridiculousness of our current wealth hoarding system (based on supposed money that for the most part does not even really exist). Speaking of which, the nature of money should be the theme of a future episode of PGAP…. Stick around for next episode where author and activist Anitra Nelson where we discuss all things Degrowth and her new co-written book Exploring Degrowth: A Critical Guide Support our local artists! The track of choice for this episode is the supberly titled 'This Modern World Is Built On Trash' by Melbourne based talent Sam Trowse. You can find out more about Sam Trowse (AKA Johnny) on Triple J Unearthed Remember folks this episode is made possible by Sustainable Population Australia. They need your love and attention too! Check them out here (And just in case there weren't enough links already....drum roll....) Robert Wanalo is part of the international Wellbeing Economy Alliance (WEA). To find out more, click here To find out more about the PGI offers and needs market For another perspective on population sustainability in Kenya, check out Episode 2 of PGAP, world population day special To find out more about Richard Heinberg and his book The End of Growth To find out more about Nicole Foss and The Automatic EarthSpecial Guest: Robert Wanalo.

Well the good news is that Earth Overshoot Day arrived later this year on August the 22nd than it did in 2019 (July the 29th). The bad news is that this is due to COVID, not because of concerted effort on part of the dominant economic paradigm. Earth Overshoot Day is always a sobering, soul-searching time for host Michael Bayliss, so what better way to go about it than to soul-search with one of the most thoughtful and articulate environmentalist and authors of our time, Derrick Jensen? You may remember Derrick Jensen from such best-selling books as Endgame and The Culture of Make Believe. Or you may be aware of him as the co-founder of Deep Green Resistance radical environmental group. Derrick is hailed as the philosopher poet of the ecological movement. He pulls no punches when it comes to being a champion of the natural world, pointing the finger of scrutiny at the modern human capitalist experiment and reminding us that yes, limits to growth are DEFINITELY real. In other words, he fits in just perfectly with Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP). I can't say we keep things shallow during the interview. Derrick goes down the rabbit hole with me as he dissects capitalism, the psychology that creates an expansionist, destructive mind-set, the trauma that is inflicted on both human and human animals as a result of a civilization built around competition and domination and, not least, the role that (non patriarchal/monotheist) spirituality plays in reconnecting us back into the awe and one-ness with nature. Although the interview is slightly longer than some other episodes, I feel I barely brushed the surface with Derrick and can't wait to have him back for 'round two pithy conversation’ soon! Before the interview host Michael Bayliss provides a ruefully amusing anecdote of trying to explain Earth Overshoot Day to the mainstream news media last year. I honestly thought I was buttering up our predicament for the interviewers in the best way that I could, but they still felt I was being too pessimistic when I tried to explain that the work to be done involved more than just recycling. I had almost forgotten the cognitive blind spot that is mainstream news! To cap it off, we play the brand new track ‘Ice’ from 'Counting Backwards' . It is a track about modern life malaise in the suburbs. Take this lyric below which links in nicely to some of the conversation had with Derrick Jensen: "People don’t know how to be happy in the sprawl. It's a monochrome world she says. Flanked by urban malls." Stick around for episode six when I interview Robert Wanalo from Post Growth Institute. In the meantime, you may be interested in the Earth Overshoot Day media release freshly released by Sustainable Population Australia (SPA).Special Guest: Derrick Jensen.

Since colonization (at least!) the human race has been blinded by the delusion that we are separate, above and beyond all other species to whom we share the planet. As we enter the decade of consequence, PGAP interviews Dr Michelle Maloney, who has dedicated her life to unpacking these myths and provides some insight into what an earth-centred society might look like. The 2020s is the decade of consequence from centuries of anthropocentrism. The ‘Anthropocene’ has seen the numbers of human and ‘livestock’ animals balloon at the expense of every single other ‘wild’ species on the planet. Nature is biting back. In Australia, after reeling from the devastating impact of the bushfires, Melbourne has been plunged into six weeks (at least) of stage 4 lockdown. We are also looking towards a future of contraction and recession. Our politicians and business ‘leaders’ are only too keen to return to business as usual - as soon as possible. Dr Michelle Maloney has other ideas… Michelle is the co-founder of Australian Earth Laws Alliance (AELA) and director of the New Economy Network Australia (NENA). For the past decade, Michelle has dedicated her life to bringing people and community together to revision a better world in which humans live, work and play in a way that regenerates the environment instead of taking away from it. From anthropocentricism to ecocentrism, if you please. Michelle shares with host Michael Bayliss the excellent and essential work being done by the volunteer run AELA and NENA, bringing the realms of law and economics back into nature where it belongs. She describes what kind of world we might live in if we can change out mind sets by putting our beautiful local ecosystems back into forefront. Michael also plays ‘Life on a Pier’ from his own band ‘Shock Octopus’. The track is an epic song about climate grief, an orchestrated eulogy for these difficult but fascinating times. The song is currently enjoying a month of national wide promotion, so we thought its inclusion here is timely! We hope you enjoy the 04th episode of PGAP.Special Guest: Dr Michelle Maloney.

World Population Day has passed but its legacy continues! In part B of our world population day special, PGAP travels (virtually) to the USA to speak with Dave Gardner from World Population Balance and to Portugal to talk with population sustainability academic João Abegão. We are also serenaded by the song 'Let's Hang Out' by child-free comedian Jude Perl. Dave Gardner speaks with Michael about World Population Balance's excellent campaigns during 2020 that encourage and empower people to choose smaller families. Also discussed was the launch of the World OVERpopulation Day website, GrowthBusters and Dave's great work on The Overpopulation Podcast. João Abegão discusses the background behind the making of the Overpopulation Atlas - this is perhaps one of the most spectacular and dedicated post-grad projects ever! As one of the youngest advocates for population sustainability on, João has also addressed the UN as part of a panel discussion on population at the COP25 in Madrid. 2019., which is very impressive. In between interviews, we play a live performance of 'Let's Hang Out' from comedian, musician and thought provoker Jude Perl. Jude performed live as part of SPA's Tough Crowd series with Australian comedian and national treasure Rod Quantock (see here). The song's clever message is very relevant to world population day - it will all make sense by the chorus!Special Guests: Dave Gardner and João Abegão.