Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My friend Eric Hales (a highly recommended therapist, gay, mid-30s, former Latter-day Saint, licensed in Utah, Idaho, Nevada, and Virginia) joins us to talk about his work supporting the queer and Latter-day Saint community. Eric starts by sharing some of his story and then talks about key concepts that promote healing, including: Creating safety Healing from wounds Self-compassion Addressing shame-based trauma and C-PTSD What to look for in a therapist Understanding and addressing numbing behaviors This is one of the finest and most insightful podcasts we’ve done with a therapist. I learned so much from Eric. If you want to better understand how a therapist can help you (or others), want better tools to support others, or are queer and looking for more hope, self-love, and healing, please listen to Eric’s podcast and share it with others. This is the kind of episode I wish I had heard before becoming a parent and a local church leader. When we know better, we do better. Thank you, Eric, for being on the podcast and for your work to help others find hope, healing, and peace. Your work is so needed in our community. Links: Eric’s e-mail: ericjhales@gmail.com Eric’s practice: https://meetmonarch.com/therapist/eric-jeffrey-hales-lcsw-murray-ut More about Eric: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/eric-hales-murray-ut/936761 Facebook Group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

My friend Kelsey Wells (RM, from Idaho, lives in Utah County, former EFY counselor and seminary teacher, active in her ward) joins us to bravely share her story. Kelsey starts with coming out to her mother (senior year of high school) and the good/difficult experiences—including how not talking about it brings shame. Kelsey talks about wanting to service a mission but putting that on pause because she realized she was not doing that for the right reasons. Kelsey shares what changed and how she ended up serving. Kelsey bravely talks about getting engaged to a man and how that engagement ended a few weeks before the wedding. Kelsey talks about ignoring red flags because of her desire to get married and have a family. Kelsey talks about being in the Temple and a sealer sharing some thoughts that gave her clarity and courage to end the engagement. Kelsey talks about not wanting to be alive—but finding hope in Christ, therapy and the Questions From the Closet podcast. Kelsey also talks about “fear is where Satan thrives”. Kelsey talks about why she stays a member of the Church, joy in being a EFY councilor and teaching seminary, and helping others find hope. Thank you Kelsey for being on the podcast. You are so emotionally and spiritually mature. You are also so brave. You being open helps others walking this road and helps us better create Zion. Links: Instagram: Instagram: @kelswayan Email: behappi208@gmail.com Current Teaching versus Obsolete Teachings: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mxcr5fo9rxl29by4wvc9q/Obsolete-and-Current-Teachings-LGBTQ.docx?rlkey=e1dbc3iffua4nwwscpg911uzw&dl=0

My friend Marley Orton (married mother of three, mid-50s, Utah County, real estate broker/hair stylist, RM) joins us to share her story of love and acceptance of her non-binary child CC. Marley starts with the pregnancy of this child knowing it was twins and having that confirmed via ultrasound. However, that changed with “Vanishing Twin Syndrome” where she ended up with one child. Marley talks about CC being sensitive, focused on those left out, sweet and a great sibling to their younger brother Zac. Marley talks about CC coming out as pansexual at age 16 and the body dysphoria they felt and feeling ostracized—especially at church. Marley talks about—with the help of a great therapist—CC understanding the identity that resonated with them: non-binary—and how CC's mental health and hope for the future improved with the process of transitioning. Marley talks about discovering “Chimera Twin Syndrome” and how this could bring a more scientific understanding to CC being non-binary. Marley talks about being the mother of three wonderful children—all whom have stepped away from the church—and what they are doing in their family to stay close together and love each other. Marley talks about how we can improve church culture—including being open to new perspectives so that more feel loved, welcomed, and needed. I learned so much from Marley. If you are open to learning more to support queer Latter-day Saints and improve church culture, I encourage you to listen to Marley’s podcast and share it with others. Thank you, Marley, for being on the podcast! And thank you CC for the great person you are and allowing your story to be shared. Links: E-mail: marleysellshomes@gmail.com. Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/marley.orton Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marley.orton/

My friend Matt Higinbotham (RM from Tempe Arizona, returned Feb 2024, from Utah County, BYU student) joins us to share his story as a gay Latter-day Saint. Matt talks about his early years figuring out his sexuality and his journey to realize (and then accept) he is gay. Matt talks about the role of prayer, scripture study, and temple attendance to help feel God’s love, acceptance, hope for his future and the desire to serve/help others (a big reason he did the podcast). Matt talks about his desire to serve a mission and how that hope eventually became a reality—all while being open with his church leaders about his sexual orientation. Matt talks about the positive and painful experience of being gay and on a mission. Some the negative ones were around gay jokes (missionaries and members) and some of the positive ones were where being open about being gay allowing him to help others know they too could feel God’s love, and acceptance. Matt talks about how navigating a variety of experience (including Church leader talks that were painful), being an EFY counselor (and teaching the Family Proclamation), seeing the Y lit up in pride colors, unfairness (compared to straight members) of being gay (and not having a path to have a marriage and still fully participate in the Church). I learned so much from Matt—a thoughtful, spiritually mature, deeply insightful, and remarkable man. You are a good man Matt with a wonderful future. Thank you for blessing so many people on your mission and doing this podcast which will give others hope—and help us better love and support each other as we build Zion. Links: Matt on Facebook: www.facebook.com/matthew.higinbotham.5 Matt on IG: @matthiggy134 Matt’s e-mail: matt.higgy234@gmail.com

My friend Trevor Schoeny (RM from Lubbock Texas, returned Dec 2024, from Virgina/DC, BYU student, Age 23) joins us to share his story as a gay Latter-day Saint. Trevor starts with realizing he is gay and then coming out to his parents after his senior year (positive experience). Trevor talks about stepping away from the Church (which helped him eventually come back to the Church) and his brave (and somewhat surprising) decision to serve a mission (and walk back into a place of trauma)—because he wanted to help others heal from pain and find love. Trevor (who reads scriptures throughout the podcast) talks about all the things he learned and taught on his mission including: * Fear has no place in the Gospel * His crucible moment when he decided to stay on his mission * No one should feel they are not celestial material * Importance of vulnerability * Finding our story in the scriptures I was so moved listening to and learning from Trevor—a great man who was been through the “winepress” representing the difficult road of a queer Latter-day Saint—and his ability to help others find hope, belonging and peace. You are a man of great courage. You are a good man, Trevor. I’m honored to have you on the podcast. Everyone in the Church needs to hear like Trevor as we build Zion. Please listen and share this episode. Links: Trevor on FB: https://www.facebook.com/trevorschoeny Trevor on IG: https://www.instagram.com/trevorschoeny/ Trevor’s e-mail: trevor@schoeny.com

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friends Jake and Joe Sharp (identical twins, age 24, from Mesa Arizona, RMs) join us to talk about their life work to help others choose to stay, turn to positive coping behaviors, finding hope and the role of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to heal from pain. Jake and Joe start with the story of losing their younger brother Sam to suicide at age 16 while they were on their missions. They talk about the goodness of Sam—as well as the difficult mental health challenges (OCD, toxic perfection, etc) that Sam faced, and all their family was doing to help him find hope. They talk about the heartbreaking pain, anger, and guilt they faced—and how Christ and therapy has helped them heal. They talk about unhealthy coping behaviors to deal with the pain (pornography use and overeating) and how they learned better tools/behaviors helping to be in a better place. They talk about shame and how that is Satan’s greatest tool to separate us from the love of our Heavenly Parents and the Savior—and how shame has no place in the gospel of Jesus Christ. They talk about the importance of vulnerability, therapy, fitness, doing a “forgive fast” for ourselves, we are not broken, and our Savior to give hope/peace. If you are suicidal, Jake and Joe’s story will help you. We all invite you to stay. If you are working through grief of losing someone to suicide, their story will help you. If you are working to solve porn use (or better tools to help others), their story will help you. Thank you, Jake and Joe, for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you. Thank you for your courage to talk about these subjects to give others hope. You are good men doing many hope/healing in our community. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Jake and Joe’s Instagram and TikTok: @jdoufit Their Mom’s Podcast (Pam Sharp): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fight-hard-love-much/id1615231547

My friend Dr. Matthew L Harris (Historian, Colorado State University) joins us to talk about his powerful new book called “Second-Class Saints: Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality”— a fifteen-year labor of love. In Matt’s book (which was a powerful read for me), he draws on never-before-seen private papers of LDS apostles and church presidents—including Spencer W. Kimball to help us understand the complexity of ending the ban—something that President Kimball considered long before becoming Church President. Matt talks about why the ban started, who started it, how it became official doctrine for decades, and what shifted to cause church leaders to end the ban. Matt also talks about why ending the ban didn’t end racist teachings about black people—how all those prior teachings have now been refuted—but still might exists in our culture. Matt discusses key questions like was the ban doctrine or policy? Was it “just not time yet to end the ban”? And other important questions. Matt also talks about the importance of proximity by senior church leaders to those hurt by the ban and how those stories/experience changed hearts and were key to considering lifting it. Matt also shares insights on possible parallels to the priesthood ban and the experience of LGB Latter-day Saints who may also feel like “second-class saints”. I learned so much from Matt’s book and loved having him on the podcast. I encourage everyone to read his book and then consider what each of us can do to better support those of the margins. Links: Matt’s book at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/019769571X Matt’s webpage: https://matthewlharris.org/

My friend Richard Hanks (mid 60s, retired business executive, active Latter-day Saint/former Mission President) joins us to talk about his biography of his father Elder Marion D. Hanks (beloved general authority—called at age 31—who lived from 1921-2011) in his book called “To Be a Friend of Christ: The Life of Marion D. Hanks.” Richard talks about his father’s unique approach to the gospel and his work—focused on following Christ—advocating for: increasing the church's humanitarian efforts, Christian service by full-time missionaries, acceptance of those on the fringes, the creation of singles wards, combining High Priests and Elders quorums, adapting garments to local climates, civil marriage before sealings, a kinder and more merciful approach to repentance, and a strong/vocal desire to end the priesthood ban—all while being deeply committed to the Church and supportive of its leaders. Richard talks about key areas of his father’s ministry including “aggressive Christianity versus aggressive proselytizing”; “souls versus statistics ”; and “this is the only true church/others are wrong" versus "The more excellent way.” He further talks about his father’s work to focus the mission of the Church on Christ, bring the Christus to Temple Square, teaching faith over dogma and certitudes, and principles to help those with legitimate concerns stay in the Church. I was always aware of and grateful for the ministry of Elder Hanks, but it wasn’t until becoming familiar with Richard’s book about his father, that I realized how unique, progressive, and needed was his ministry in the Church, all he accomplished, and the many lives he blessed being laser focused on helping people "Come unto Christ." If you are looking for hope for the future of the Church and how your contributions are needed, I encourage you to read Richard’s book. Thank you, Richard, for making this book possible, and for your work to create Zion. Links: Richard’s book at Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1560854723 Contacting Richard: RichDHanks@gmail.com

My friend Hailey Kynaston (Anaheim California RM, BYU-I marriage and family studies major, grew up in Davis County) bravely joins us to share her story. Hailey starts with her journey coming to terms with her sexual orientation during her high school years, dating girls secretly, as well as dating boys. Hailey talks about her journey to attend her YSA ward, working to gain a testimony and ultimately serving a successful mission. Hailey talks about the transformative experiences on her mission that helped her develop a deeper relationship with Christ, find more hope/peace, and clarity about her future—including keeping her covenants and hopes to marry a man in the temple. Hailey shares her post-mission coming out post (super powerful—with a focus on her primary identity as a daughter of loving Heavenly Parents—insights about our Savior—and hopes for her future). Hailey talks about the support she feels at North Star and its upcoming conference (Feb 27 – March 1st) and the YSA group she is leading. We both invite you to consider attending North Star this year (see show notes for more information). Thank you, Hailey, for being on the podcast and your courage to share your story. You are brave and courageous—and you being open helps so many. Links: Hailey’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/hailey.kynaston.33 Hailey’s Instagram: @hailey_kyn Hailey’s e-mail: haileykyn22@gmail.com North Star Conference: northstarconference.org

My friend Candice Clark (mother of 5, lives in Iowa City, Iowa) joins us to share her story of her journey to love, understand, and accept her queer kids—and the blessings of using their preferred pronouns. Candice is open about the sometimes choppy road to using preferred pronouns—but talks about how that brought improved relationships and more love, open communication, and genuine family unity and understanding. She shares ten messages a queer person might hear when we use their pronouns: You know yourself better than I know you. I would rather change the way I speak about you than hurt you repeatedly. Your sense of safety is important to me. Your identity is real and should be acknowledged. I want to teach everyone around me to respect you. Being uncomfortable is fine if I avoid being offensive. I can hear you talking and I am really listening. Being who you truly are is not an inconvenience to me. I would prefer if you kept being honest with me. I am an ally, a friend, and someone you can trust. Candice talks about her journey to encourage extended family to also use preferred pronouns—a journey that has been very difficult at times and required Candice to extend skills of grace, listening, and bridge building. Candice talks about how it is a journey worth undertaking. Candice talks about her podcast “No Empty Chairs: For Moms Whose Kids Don’t Come to Church,” becoming a life coach, and her role in and the purpose of the Facebook group “Bridges: Support for Latter-day Saint Parents of Adult Children”. If you are looking for a real-world story of better supporting the queer people in your life, please listen to Candice’s podcast and connect with her resources. Thank you, Candice, for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Your work is so needed in our community! Links: Candice’s web page: candiceclarkcoaching.com/ Candice’s FB Page: www.facebook.com/candiceclarkcoaching Candice’s Podcast: candiceclarkcoaching.com/?page_id=78 Bridges FB Group: www.facebook.com/groups/1139458306236720 FB Group for LDS Parents with LGBTQ children: www.facebook.com/groups/WalkWithYouLDSParentsOfLGBTQ