Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My friend Hayden Clark (age 30, married, father of one, lives in Mesa Arizona, former Utah Dixie State University football player, Phoenix firefighter and paramedic, stake high councilor), joins us to share his journey to understand and solve his porn use. Hayden talks about his early exposure to porn (age 7) and how this became a coping mechanism to deal with life. Hayden talks about not opening up to his wife about his porn use before their marriage—but finally having the courage to talk about this once married. Once Hayden opened up to his wife about his porn use, that opened the door to do the needed work to solve it. Hayden talks about therapists (including Sara Brewer’s program) which helped him understand his porn use was really a coping mechanism (or “buffer”) to deal with/escape the challenges of life. With that reframing, Hayden talks about the things he did to improve himself to be closer to sobriety. In addition to good therapy, Hayden also talks about the role of The Atonement of Jesus Christ and how reading the Book of Mormon helped him. Hayden also talks about why his wife and him started a podcast, why he is talking about this at church (including his high council talks)—all because of his desire to help others. If you are working to end porn use (or other unwanted coping behaviors like overeating, drugs/alcohol, caffeine, excessive social media use, etc) please listen to Hayden’s story. It will help you. And if you are looking to help others, Hayden’s story will help you better help others. Thank you, Hayden, for your courage to be on the podcast and share your story. Respect. You are helping so many! Links: Hayden and his wife Dylan‘s podcast called: This Is Livin’ : podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-is-livin/id1770163904 Sara Brewer: centerforovercoming.com/ Other Richard Ostler solving porn podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/solving-porn-use Richard Ostler chapter on solving porn: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nrfb3jzluzrj2sp8ihrfo/Chapter-4-Ending-Pornography-Use.-Listen-Learn-and-Love-Improving-Latter-day-Saint-Culture.pdf?rlkey=dqxcrtvxcmu6u3ppkig3kh82p&dl=0

My friends Clint and Melinda Mueller (live in Litchfield Park, Arizona; BYU grads; forensic engineering business owners) join us to share their story of having two gay sons (four sons total, sons #2 and #3 are gay—age 29 and 26 respectively—both returned missionaries). Clint talks about the long road (started in 2016) when their first son came out—and all the changed perspective needed to better support their sons (going from “not on my watch will I have a gay son” to loving/supporting them). Clint talks about deeply spiritual experiences (including talking with other gay people in his life) that helped him do better. Melinda talks about personal revelation including “your job is to love them; my job is to save them.” Clint and Melinda talk about the shock of when their second son came out following his mission—and how they were better equipped to love and support him. Clint also shares what they are doing in their LDS circle to help local leaders/members better support LGBTQ members. If you are an LDS parent new to the road of having a queer child (or be better prepared for this possibility), or a local leader, please listen to the Mueller’s story. It is a powerful story of growth, pain, honest communication, keeping the family circle together, and creating a beautiful family love story. Thank you, Clint and Melinda, for being on the podcast and giving us better tools/gospel insights to support the LGBTQ people in our lives. Links: Clint/Melinda Mueller’s e-mail: muellakites@muellakites.com

My friends Dr. Ben Schilaty, Clare Dalton, and Liz Macdonald join us to talk about the rebranding of the powerful podcast “Questions From The Closet” to “All Out in the Open.” They share how the expanded scope includes once-a-month hosts including Iese Wilson focusing on international queer Latter-day Saints, Clare Dalton on how the scriptures provide principles to help queer Latter-day Saints, Liz Macdonald and Michael Soto talking about community building, and Ben Schilaty and Charlie Bird talking about how to be more open with ourselves and others. They also talk about the Gather/All Arizona conference in Mesa (March 29, 2025), the Gatherings monthly scripture curriculum, the annual Gather Conference in Provo (June 26-28, 2025), and a new conference called Belong (a conference for queer youth and youth allies—born out of the successful Gather track at the 2024 conference). If you want to feel hope in the LDS/LGBTQ space, please listen to this episode and (more importantly) listen to “All Out in the Open” podcast. Ben, Clare, and Liz are doing such great work and represent the hundreds of people in this space working to “expand the borders” of Zion where more feel loved, needed, and true belonging. Their principled approach gives us all better ideas on what we can do in our circle of influence to better support queer Latter-day Saints. Thank you, Ben, Clare, Liz for being on the podcast and all your great work! Links: All Out in the Open Podcast: alloutintheopen.org/ Gather curriculum: gather-conference.com/gatherings Gather Arizona March 29, 2025: www.allarizona.org/conferences (registration not live yet) Belong Youth Conference June 26-28, 2025: www.belongyouthconference.org to receive registration info as it becomes available. Follow @belongyouthconf on Instagram. Gather June 26-28, 2025: www.gather-conference.com/ (registration not live yet)

My friend Paul Peterson (married father of 3, lives in Arkansas, Master’s in Marriage and Family Therapy from Valdosta State University, owns/runs his own practice) joins us to talk about how we can know we are whole/perfect now and we are always loved by God—and tools to absolutely accept this. Paul talks about how this helps us to “become”—not from a feeling of shame/brokenness—but from a position of strength, fully understanding our identity as a beloved child of God. Paul brings his personal experience, academic training, theological understanding, and professional experience to make this a reality in our lives. I was deeply moved (and calmed) listening to Paul. I encourage everyone to check out this episode and read Paul’s book—I believe it will help you and give you more tools to help others. Thank you, Paul, for being on the podcast and your much needed work in our community. It is good people like you that give me hope. Links: Paul’s website: www.paulwpeterson.com/ Paul’s book: www.amazon.com/dp/B0DN5TY2C4

My friend Oakley Roberts (from Payson Utah, RM from Liberia Africa) joins us to share his story. Oakley talks about knowing he was different since age 12, his high school life (including his mantra “if they wanted to be in my life, they were welcome”) and coming out a bisexual over the phone to his sister while on his mission (later coming out as gay to his mother). Oakley talks about the curse/punishment he felt from God for being gay—and the pain/shame of that initial conclusion. Oakley talks about reaching out to people for help and how coming out and being authentic improved his feelings about himself. Oakley talks about the powerful spiritual experience in the canyon east of Cedar City while in college with the personal revelation that Oakley’s sexual orientation (like all of Oakley’s attributes) are divine in nature and Oakley is created as intended—a 180 degree shift from this earlier feelings about being cursed. Oakley talks about his visit with his Bishop (super helpful) and his supportive mother (“I trust you Oakley” and “whoever you bring home, I will accept them”). I am so impressed with Oakley—his spiritual maturity, his emotionally resilience, and his deep acceptance of who he is—all at age 21. You have a great life ahead of you Oakley and you will continue to give hope to others and help them feel God’s love. Honored to have you on the podcast. You are a good man. Links: Gather/Lift and Love: www.liftandlove.org/ FB group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Oakley’s Instagram: @_oakleyroberts

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Kyle Dunshee (age 30, married father with new baby, suicide survivor) joins us to share his journey with mental health. Kyle starts with his journey with severe OCD/anxiety which led to a suicide attempt at age 10. Kyle talks about his great parents getting him help—including being institutionalized (helpful experience). Kyle also talks about self-harm and gives insights on why people engage in this behavior and how it is able to put this behind him. Kyle talks a Book of Mormon scripture story that gave him hope and his decision to serve a mission—but the painful/angry experience when he was denied this opportunity. Kyle talks about his pain, anger at the institutional Church, and the deeply spiritual experience in an empty movie theatre watching an R rated movie—a powerful experience where he felt the love of God and a desire to become more active in the Church. Kyle talks about why he decided to resubmit his mission papers and his call to serve in Portland Oregon. Kyle talks about how his mental health is on ongoing part of his life—and why it is (at times) a beautiful struggle. Kyle’s story is in his new book called “At the Bottom of Bountiful” (see show notes). I was so impressed with Kyle’s courage and vulnerability to share his story. It is a powerful story that helps others walking a similar road with mental health issues and those with difficult church experiences who want to stay in the church. I encourage everyone to listen to Kyle’s podcast and read his book so we have more insights to help ourselves and our friends/family working with mental health issues. You are a good man, Kyle. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Kyle’s book on Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/B0DQ8Z9RHH Grandpa Thomas Rogers Obituary: www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/deseretnews/name/thomas-rogers-obituary?id=55427103 Kyra Dunshee Podcast: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-293-krista-mortensen-and-kyra-dunshee-sisters-when-your-child-leaves-the-church

My friend long-time friend Dusty Bee (late 30s, RM, father of two sons/divorced, was in a same-sex marriage/excommunicated/now divorced, DJ/business owner, lives in Idaho) joins us to share his unique and powerful story. Dusty talks about knowing he was gay/different around 10, serving a mission (asking God to make him straight), marrying a women (while closeted), marrying to a man (married about 6 years—a marriage Dusty doesn’t regret and into a family he loves), being excommunicated (very painful experience), and then his decision (with a powerful spiritual experience on the Rome temple grounds) to get rebaptized (working with the same Stake President and their reconciliation after the difficult excommunication). Yes, Dusty is still gay—and talks about how he accepts/love himself, why he believes in the Church, how we can better support LGBTQ members, and the character of our Heavenly Parents—including Their deep love for ALL Their children. Dusty is not asking couples in same-sex marriages to follow his path—but rather the importance of helping LGBTQ members to write their own story (without agenda) and walking with them—leaving all judgement to our Savior. Dusty is one of the finest people I know. He has done a great job walking a nearly impossible road and his story helps other queer Latter-day Saints to find hope/perspective in their future—and parents/allies/local church leaders looking for insights on how to better love, understand, and support. I’m honored to have Dusty on the podcast. I encourage everyone to listen to and share his story and we work to expand the borders of Zion so more feel welcome and a deep feeling of belonging—as I believe we are a better people with our LGBTQ members with us. Links: Facebook Group to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

Episode 797: Dr. Daniel Parkinson, Mentor to LDS Parents with LGBTQ Kids, New Book by Richard Ostler

My friend Nathan Kitchen (father of five, RM, dentist, mid-50s, in a same-sex marriage, author, powerful/thoughtful/mature voice in the queer LDS space) joins us to share some of this story and talk about his new book called “The Boughs of Love: Navigating the Queer Latter-day Saint Experience During an Ongoing Restoration.” Nathan talks about some of his personal story (including following church leader counsel as a gay Latter-day Saint young man to marry a woman) and how that marriage eventually ended. Nathan—who holds a deep belief in our Heavenly Parents—talks about scripture stories and gospel principles he used to navigate his life and how those apply to helping younger queer Latter-day Saints write their own story from a queer centric/Christ centered perspective. Nathan talks about why he wrote the book (“to cast hope”) to help queer Latter-day Saints and allies. Nathan also talks about the role of Affirmation and its worldwide efforts to help queer Latter-day Saints find their joy in the places that feel safe and healthy for them. Nathan also addresses other topics like the 2019 reversal of the November 2015 policy statements, cautions about gaslighting, how to heal/move on from pain/anger towards the Church, and offers advice for new allies. Thank you, Nathan, for being on the podcast and for your mature/thoughtful voice. I continue to learn from you. Thanks for all you are doing to bring us together as a part of the same human family. Nathan’s book at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1961471159 Nathan’s book a BCC Press in their catalogue section: https://www.bccpress.org Affirmation: affirmation.org

My friend Tyler Bastian joins us to talk about Roots High School (located on a 5-acre farm)—a charter school for students who need a different experience—and may have fallen through the cracks. Tyler talks about why he started the school in 2015, its focus, their mission statement around “we love you”, and what they are doing in a unique and powerful way to help each student feel purpose and belonging. Tyler also talks about the role of farm animals in the education process, how it helps individual students, and how the farm environment brings down potential barriers between groups. Tyler also talks about we love others “not by words—but how we treat them”. Tyler also shares career advice for those who may not feel comfortable in a more traditional career path—by sharing his own story find his way to start a chapter school. Thank you, Tyler, for being on the podcast and all you are doing to give student more hope, purpose, and a feeling of belonging. I’m grateful for your work—and everyone at Roots High School—and honored to have you on the podcast. Root High School: https://www.rootshigh.org/ "Everything is Incredible" https://youtu.be/oqZ56-RMbNc?si=lkoMVhvGYvMbN29L "When I Need a Friend" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgkE23j_8Ss