Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My dear friends, Susan Hinckley and Cynthia Winward, (co-founders of the “At Last She Said It Project” which includes their groundbreaking podcast—with over 200 episodes and 2+ million downloads) join us to talk about their new book. Their book (published by Signature Books) invites readers to consider new perspectives, be open to changing our minds, and how growth can be uncomfortable—and how this leads to helping more fellow Latter-day Saints feel valued, welcome and how to have more belonging. The book helps us better understand patriarchy within the church and how this can cause pain for both women and men—and what we can do in our area of influence to improve. The book also addresses many other topics within the church to help us build Zion including: Discipling Obedience Fear Repentance Worthiness Cynthia's Personal Essay: “Works for Me” Susan's Personal Essay: “Metamorphosis” Speaking Up Why I Wear a Cross I’ve learned so much from these two good women about better ministering to others. I wish their podcast and book existed decades ago—it would have helped me be a better husband, father, church member—and better lift (versus sometimes add) to the burdens of others. I encourage everyone to read/share their book. Thank you, Susan and Cynthia. You two are awesome. Links: Book and podcast: atlastshesaidit.org/

My friend Elder Jax Smith (multi-racial, from Highland Utah, Age 25) joins us to bravely share his story: Middle school: “My personal hell” Coming out to older siblings Suicidal ideation, hospitalization, “choosing to stay” Decision to serve a mission/called to Alabama Birmingham Reason for ending his mission and leaving the Church Role of good people (like Elder Jenkins) to help him return to Church Difficult YSA experience attending with his boyfriend—left the Church for a second time Focusing on Jesus and attending Baptist Church Bishop’s (also his uncle) invitation to attend his YSA Ward Calling that led him to full activity, becoming a temple worker, and going back on a mission Others (like Elder Wright and Brother Monson) that helped him accept himself and feel like he belonged Navigating church generated pain/trauma/difficult experiences Powerful testimony of Jesus Christ and His power to heal This is another super powerful/brave podcast from a remarkable Latter-day Saint. Thank you Elder Jax Smith for being on the podcast. You are a remarkable disciple of Christ, and your story helps others walking difficult roads—and it helps the rest of us have more insights to help everyone feel like the belong and better create Zion. You are a good man! Links: Jax Smith Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556810127958 Jax Smith Instagram: @smith_3_55_

My friend Leon Crandell (lives in Snowflake AZ, cosmetologist, Brazil RM) joins us to bravely share his story: Survivor of sexual abuse Turning to substance abuse to deal with/escape the shame of sexual abuse Later abused by a doctor on his mission—and the shame of wondering why me Concluding being a victim of sexual abuse isn’t why he is gay Getting married (married for 27 years) and not really addressing his sexual orientation Gradually opening up to his wife—and their road to stay in their marriage and the Church Finding community of others walking this road Asking Heavenly Father “What do you think of me”? Super helpful Powerful (and healing) experience in a conversation with Jesus Kurt Francom’s impactful book “Is God Disappointed in Me” Hope instead of shame/fear This is a super powerful, vulnerable, and insightful podcast to help listeners see the role of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ to help us find more hope/peace in our lives—and how our unique differences help us reach others—helping to create Zion. You are super brave Leon. Your courage to be honest gives hope to others. You are a good man! Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Leon’s podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/coming-untwo-christ/id1752406845 Leon’s webpage: cominguntwochrist.com/ Leon on Facebook: www.facebook.com/leon.crandell Leon on Instagram: @cominguntwochrist Kurt Francom’s book: www.amazon.com/dp/B0CT67RS86 Dr Robinson: www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9jO9iMbm5U

My friend Darice (married mother of four including a transgender daughter, Gather Conference Director) joins us to share her story including: 1) Proximity to LGBTQ people—seeing their goodness/gifts/kindness 2) Being uncomfortable with the 2015 policy statements—"didn’t align with my spiritual integrity” 3) Being called as Stake Relief Society President and her work to help everyone feel loved and that they belong—including having a Stake inclusion specialist 4) Supporting her transgender daughter and her upcoming marriage to her non-binary partner 5) Living in “complexity” and how that gives her more perspective/tools to help others 6) Getting involved with Gather 7) Upcoming Gather Conference on June 27-28, 2025 Thank you, Darice, for your work to bless so many lives. I encourage everyone to listen to Darice’s story and attend Gather. Thank you for all your work (and many others with Gather) to build Zion and help everyone feel loved and welcome. Links: Gather Conference: thegatherconference.regfox.com/gather-conference-worldwide-2025 Gather Conference Registration: thegatherconference.regfox.com/gather-conference-worldwide-2025 Lift and Love Support Groups: www.liftandlove.org/meeting Darice on Instagram: @dariceauston

My friend Helen Anderson (Lives in Utah County, BYU Grad, Mother of 4, LGBTQ Ally) joins us to share her story: · Exposure to gay people in the 70’s and 80’s—becoming supportive · Carol Lynn Pearson’s book · Documentary called “TransMormon” and how it helped prepare her · Journey to love, see, understand, and accept her transgender daughter · Pronouns · OK to cry · High school graduation (great experience) · University of Utah welcome/housing (great experience) · Have a transgender/non-binary child is not a sad tragedy—but can become a beautiful family love story Helen also talks about her new variety show called “Dear Mom: Celebrating Mothers of LGBTQIA+ Children” on May 10th (see show notes for more information). Thank you, Helen, for your courage to come on the podcast and share your beautiful family love story. I’m grateful for your voice and experiences to help us better support the transgender people in our lives—for they are wonderful. Links: Variety Show on May 10th, 2025: https://www.werehereutah.com/dearmom Helen on Instagram: @helenandersoncomedy

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Lucas Batista (grew up in Brazil, lived in Spain, RM/Chile) joins us to share his story including: 1) Growing up knowing he was like his gay mom (and all the negative comments about gay people) 2) Shame and “always wearing a mask” 3) Temple helping him feel less shame—never felt rejected by God 4) Great mission experience in Chile—came out to both Mission Presidents 5) Suicidal ideation after his mission—role of friends to give hope—including one who said “It’s OK—I will be with you to the end” 6) Letter to “future me” 7) Not broken, coming on the podcast to reduce shame and give others hope Thank you, Lucas, for your courage to come on the podcast and share your unique story. You are super brave. You story will help others to feel less shame, more acceptance, and hope for the future. You are a good man who has bless many lives. Our church and world are a better place with Lucas Batista part of it! Links: Lucas on Instagram: @luccabattistta Lucas on Facebook: facebook.com/lucas.silvabatista.14 Facebook Group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

My friend Lyric Kinard (lives in Raleigh, married mother of 5 including queer kids, active Latter-day Saint) joins us to share her story around creating support groups and an invitation to attend Gather Southeast (in Raleigh, NC) on Sept 20, 2025). Lyric talks about: Principles for starting a support group Engaging local leaders Importance of speaking up and having a second witness Creating safe spaces at church Gather Southeast Why she wears her transgender scarf to Church Being like Jesus Thank you, Lyric, for being on the podcast and all your work (along with many others in your area) to help LGBTQ Latter-day Saints feel more welcome, loved and needed. It is people like you that give me hope. You are making a huge difference for good. Links: Gather Southeast: www.gathersoutheast.com/ Gather Southeast Newsletter: www.gathersoutheast.com/f/gather-se-newsletter Gather Southeast Instagram: www.instagram.com/gather_southeast/ Gather Southeast Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61563441041765 Lyric’s e-mail: lyric@lyrickinard.com Resource Files at “Supporting LGBTQ Latter-day Saints”: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

My friend McKay Mayes (from Wyoming, London South RM, Age 29, Lives/Works in Utah County) joins us to share his story including: Always believing/hoping he would be fixed and be straight Great mission experience—but still gay Not fitting the typical gay stereotype Dating and trying to make it work with a woman—wanted to follow God’s plan—super painful not finding a way to make that possible Feeling “left behind” as straight friends got married For six years, committed to being single in line with the Church’s celibate guidance—leading to the darkest/most painful moments of McKay’s life New prayers (instead of “fix me”) Finding hope, acceptance of being gay, and purpose in his new path Relationship with the Church and hopes for changes First coming out experience (super helpful) I continue to be amazed by the brave/mature/thoughtful people who share their stories on the podcast—with McKay joining that group—and his desire to give hope to others walking a similar road. Thank you, McKay, for all you have done to bless/help the lives of others (mission, EFY counselor, etc) and continue to do so with your courage to be out/honest and be on the podcast to give hope to others. You are a good man with a great life ahead of you! Links: McKay on Instagram: @mckay_mayes McKay on Facebook: www.facebook.com/mckay.mayes.7 Obsolete vs current teachings: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mxcr5fo9rxl29by4wvc9q/Obsolete-and-Current-Teachings-LGBTQ.docx?rlkey=e1dbc3iffua4nwwscpg911uzw&dl=0

My friend Barbara Higinbotham (married mother of 5 living children including a non-binary child, transgender daughter, and gay son; early 60s; recently returned in early 2025 from serving a senior mission with her husband Dan). Barbara shares: Assumptions should be challenged, being uncomfortable leads to growth Being LGBTQ doesn’t make someone a predator Why she chooses to honor the new names (Ben and Heather) and her non-binary child and transgender daughter including updated Christmas stockings Focus on the temple (current temple workers) and our Savior to find revelation, hope, and peace—and anchoring in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Trusting/believing her children We are not better church members by distancing ourselves from the LGBTQ people in our lives Processing unkind comments in Church and on social media Managing grief with changing expectations Thank you, Barbara, for being on the podcast. I wish I could have listened to you 10-20 years ago—your insights would have helped to be a better disciple of Christ. I encourage everyone to listen/share this episode, as we work to “hasting the work” by “gathering Isreal”—which includes our LGBTQ friend, family and church members. Links: Barbara on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/barbara.morrellhiginbotham

My friend my friend Cort Watson (construction management major/BYI-Idaho, from Tremonton, Arcadia CA RM, former FSY counselor) joins us to bravely share his story including: Navigating feeling different, not sure believed in Church, deciding to serve a mission Coming out first to his junior companion and then his Mission President (both good experiences) Processing pain (and subsequent anger to God) about being gay Deep spiritual experiences (and role of the temple) to “thank God for making me this way” Being gay is part of the God’s plan for me and not a punishment Come out on social media in 2024 to help others Being laser focus on Christ to provide hope, help and healing Role of the temple to feel God’s love and direction Life at BYI-Idaho as a gay student (positive experience) Thank you, Cort, for your courage to share your story with others. Your courage/vulnerability helps others that they too are loved by God and needed in our church community. Thanks for helping us build Zion. You are a good man. Links: Cort on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cortland.watson.96 Cort on Instagram: @wat.cort_ Cort’s e-mail: cort.watson27@gmail.com