Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My British friends Sam and Jen Norton (married parents of four, living near London England) join us to talk about their work to help younger Latter-day Saints feel welcome, needed and that they belong—allowing them to bring their individuality to help build Zion and access the Atonement of Jesus Christ to bring healing to themselves and others. Sam and Jen take the gospel of Jesus Christ and —in a unique way—turn that into action with the London FSY events over the past two years—which included 500+ youth from over 95 nationalities. With the help of their dedicated team of forward-thinking youth leaders, they talk about these events that created a safe and welcoming place for the youth to feel welcome and needed so they could come unto Christ in their way and access His healing. Sam and Jen then talk about Sam’s new book (with Jen writing the foreword and conclusion) where Sam talks about how to put gospel principles into action so that more of our younger members feel welcome and that their contributions/insight/vision help us grow the Church and strengthen Zion. If you are working to create a safer and more welcoming culture in your area of influence (church assignment and/or family), I encourage you to read this book and listen to this podcast. It is one of the finest we’ve done. Thank you, Sam and Jen, for all your brave/trailblazing work in our Church. Thank you for helping us expand the borders of Zion. Links: New Book: “Come as You Are: Creating Space for the Rising Generation to Come Unto Christ”: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1462146392 New Book Instagram Account: https://www.instagram.com/cayasayhello/ E-Mail: cayasayhello@gmail.com London FSY Instagram account: https://www.instagram.com/fsylondon/

My friend Kurt Francom (founder and executive director of Leading Saints) joins us to talk about his new book called “Is God Disappointed In Me? Removing Shame From A Gospel of Grace”. In the podcast, Kurt (who has done 100s and 100s of interviews with local Latter-day Saint leaders) talks about why he wrote the book, the need for this type of book, and what he hopes it helps accomplish. I agree with Kurt that shame has no place in the Gospel and grateful for Kurt putting his years of learning into a book to help our Latter-day Saint community. I encourage everyone to read and share Kurt’s book. Thank you for being on the podcast Kurt and all your needed work to help create Zion. Links: Kurt’s Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CT67RS86 Leading Saints: https://leadingsaints.org/

My friend Camille McConnell (married LDS mother of 5 who was on episode 292) joins us to talk about her new book called “Let the Angels Carry You: Coping & Connecting When Loved Ones Pass On." In the podcast, Camille talks about how to connect with our loved ones who have died and have them be part of our lives. She also talks about how to find hope, peace, and purpose following the tragic and sudden loss of a child or someone close to us. Camille also talks about what we can do to better support those dealing with grief—and how simple platitudes like “he is in a better place” are not helpful. I learned so much from Camille’s insights. If you are dealing with grief or want better insights/tools to help others, please check out this podcast and buy Camille’s book. Thank you for being on the podcast Camille (and I felt Wesley with us) and all your great/needed work in our community. Links: Camille’s book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Let-Angels-Carry-You-Connecting/dp/B0CQK4PYCS Camille’s earlier episode on this platform: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-292-jeff-and-camille-mcconnell-son-wesley-age-3-died-in-a-chocking-accident Camile's website: ConnectwithCamille.com

*** Trigger Warning: This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** In this solo episode, I talk about the focus of the podcast going forward, the Allegory of the Olive Tree/Vineyard (Jacob 5) and how it applies to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints, and a personal update. Thank you for all your support of our podcast. Love, Richard Links: Richard Ostler e-mail: richard@ostlergroup.com Bio: papaostler.com Facebook Support Group for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Spencer King (Sapporo Japan RM): https://www.spencerking.link/

My friend Jana Spangler (Certified Integral Profession Coach at Symmetry Solutions, alumnus of The Living School, Latter-day Saint) joins us to talk about stages of faith using Brian McLaren’s 4-stage model of simplicity, complexity, perplexity, and harmony. This is a powerful model to understand the various roads Latter-day Saints are walking. Jana—a sought-after speaker, presenter, retreat leader and podcast guest on this subject—has many years of experience in this space from both her personal journey, professional work, and academic experience to give Latter-day Saints tools and vocabulary to understand a faith transition within themselves and provide better support to others. Jana is someone I consider an expert in this field for Latter-day Saints. Her work helped me in my own journey during my faith transition as I desired to stay a committed Latter-day Saint and needed more tools, principals, and perspective. Thank you, Jana, for your wonderful/needed work in our community to bring us together, reduce tension, and help us be more united. Links: Symmetry Solutions: symmetrypath.com/ Brian McLaren Book “Faith after Doubt”: brianmclaren.net/ Jana’s Faith Matter’s Podcast: faithmatters.org/faith-journey-101-a-conversation-with-jana-spangler/ Jana’s At She Said It Podcast: atlastshesaidit.org/episode-134-what-about-religious-trauma/ Church’s New Resources on Listening: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/helping-others-with-their-questions/03-listen-with-humility Other New Church Resource supporting those with question: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/life/church-and-gospel-questions

**Trigger Warning: This episode talks about electroshock therapy and suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Adam joins us to share his story of coming out in the early 90’s in a church where we generally believed that “something had gone wrong” with someone having same-sex attraction that could be identified and then ‘fixed” through conversation therapy and in the case of Adam (and others) electroshock therapy—and increased spiritual practices (prayer, fasting, church attendance). Adam shares his heart wrenching story of wanting to be a “good Mormon boy” and doing anything asked of him over a 5-year period to be straight and root out the “deviant nature” of his same-sex attraction. Adam takes us back to the 70s/80s/90s to what was being written in BYU publications and said by church leaders about homosexuals. Adam talks about how we "can’t heal without addressing the past”. Adam talks about his plans for suicide, delaying those plans for one day, and then leaving the Church for a more understanding/supportive environment. Adam talks about how his suicidal ideation ended in his new environment. Adam talks about finding his husband and their nearly 24 years together. Adam talks about how he “always had a testimony” and spiritual impressions to go back to church a few years ago (Adam is no longer a member). He talks about his loving/accepting Bishop and ward. He talks about how he loves his husband and the goodness of their marriage and also how the LDS church is his spiritual home. Adam (who spent two months writing his story for the podcast) gives us insights into the crushing pain/shame of conversation/electroshock therapy. I was brought to tears several times during the podcast. I was also brought to tears with Adam’s courage to walk back into an LDS chapel. I was deeply impressed with the delicate line Adam walked in the podcast of being true to his story/pain and also showing grace to church leaders/others. Adam's story brings helps us understand where we once were as a Church, the progress we have made, and help us all consider how to better love, validate, heal, and support our LGBTQ friends. It also helps us understand our past so we can talk about, learn, not make the same mistakes, and heal from our past. Thank you, Adam, for being alive, building a life with your husband, keeping God in your life, and sharing your story. Your story helps parents, allies, and local leaders—"when we know better, we do better” (Dr. Brene Brown). It also helps younger LGBTQ Latter-day Saints as they make their way forward. You are a good man. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: scholarsarchive.byu.edu/irp/vol19/iss1/ archive.org/stream/McBrideThesisElectroshockTherapy/McBride%20thesis%20electroshock%20therapy_djvu.txt Richard Ostler books/bio/etc.: www.papaostler.com Facebook Group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

My friend Ben and Rebecca Lesue (parents of nine, recently moved from SW Missouri to Monument Valley Utah, non-binary/queer child) join us to share their story. They start with their journey to understand LGBTQ Latter-day Saints following Rebecca’s brother coming out as gay. They then share the story of their own child coming out as queer/non-binary then stepping away from the Church. Rebecca talks about learning “her job is not to cause them to turn out a certain way” but to “love and nurture”. Ben and Rebecca then talk about the 5th Sunday lesson they gave in their Ward about faith transitions. They talk about models of faith including simplicity, complexity, and harmony. Ben talks about how he learned his own “faith crisis” is normal, healthy, and positive. He talks about the work of Jared Halverson (LDS Institute Teacher) to normalize faith transitions. Ben and Rebecca talk about how fear and doubt are not opposites of faith—but part of developing a stronger and more sustainable faith. Ben and Rebecca discuss how this whole process has strengthened their marriage and their relationship with God, enabled more love for others, and facilitated sustainable membership in the Church. The Lesue story is a beautiful and powerful family love story. I was so moved listening to and learning from them. If you have a family member who is queer and/or are going through a faith transition and desire to stay in the Church, their story will help you. Thank you, Ben and Rebecca, for being on the podcast and your work to bring us together and create Zion. Links: Lift and Love Story: www.liftandlove.org/stories/the-lesue-family 5th Sunday Lesson: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2u3jqnqfei7qbsunw2pr5/5th-Sunday-Lesson-Ben-Lesue-Podcast.docx?rlkey=3kc6xwv7tyhnf7htxatway50m&dl=0 Facebook group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler books/bio/etc.: www.papaostler.com

My friend Clare Dalton (who shared her story as a gay Latter-day Saint on episode 583) joins us to announce the exciting news of a companion curriculum from Gather and Lift+Love to help LGBTQ+ individuals and families see themselves in the 2024 Come, Follow Me study of the Book of Mormon. Clare talks about the accessibility of this program (which includes a downloadable monthly .pdf) designed to add additional content to Come, Follow Me that helps teachers, local leaders, LGBTQ+ families, allies, and people holding or wanting to start LGBTQ+ support groups, bring to life principles and insights from the Book of Mormon to support LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints. Clare shares her goal: “I want everyone to see themselves in the scriptures” and the importance of representation. If you are looking for Christ-centered/Church-supportive content to better support LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints as part of our study of the Book of Mormon in 2024, please check out this podcast and download/share these .pdf guides. Thank you, Clare, and everyone involved. There is such a need for this kind of content as we work to create Zion and gather LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints (who have been unfortunately “scattered” as we talk about in this episode). Links: Gather Lessons (GATHERings): gather-conference.com/gatherings Gather Conference Videos: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJagCCAaE-MHHZgkrMyrG4g Clare Dalton, earlier podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-583-clare-dalton-gay-latter-day-saint-seminary/id1347971725?i=1000585581110 Instagram weekly content and live videos will be available through: @gatherconf @liftandloveorg @clare.ify.it

My friends Liz Giles (from Yakima Washington, RM, BYU Grad) and Ryan Giles (from South Jordan Utah, RM, BYU Grad) join us to share their story. Liz and Ryan start with becoming friends at BYU, accidentally falling in love, and then* figuring out their sexualities. Ryan states, “You don’t fall in love with a girl unless you are wired for girls.” Liz talks about her decision to serve a mission and coming to terms with her sexuality during that time. Both Ryan and Liz served faithful and honorable missions. After Liz returned from her mission, Ryan and Liz share how they navigated their close friendship while at BYU, decide to begin dating a year later, and get married in 2021. They talk about the options they explored as queer Latter-day Saints and the personal revelation they received to walk a fourth option—being in a same-sex marriage and continuing to participate in Church (as much as they are allowed to). They talk about the love and support they are receiving from many church members. They also talk about their fears and what we can do as Latter-day Saints to lower their fears/anxiety so church attendance can continue and provide the hope/peace that worshiping Jesus brings. They finish with talking about a new Instagram account they started called The Forth Option @the.fourth.option and the need to give grace/support for queer Latter-day Saints and former Latter-day Saints walking other roads. Thank you, Liz and Ryan, for being on the podcast. You are a wonderful couple. I learned so much from you. Glad more are hearing your story. Liz and Ryan’ Instagram Account: @the.fourth.option Richard Ostler books/bio/etc.: www.papaostler.com Facebook Group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

My friend Andrew Davis (age 31, self-employed, active LDS, same-sex attraction, podcast host) joins us to bravely share his story. Andrew (who is a son of my awesome mission companion Jamison Davis) courageously talks about his growing up years navigating his attraction to men, porn use, anxiety, and fear—and his prayers for this all to be taken from him. Andrew talks about how his relationship with God and the Savior helped him find peace and hope in his life—including that his SSA attraction/thoughts are not a sin—but acting on them is. Andrew talks about his plans to live a covenant keeping life, how his primary label is a child of God, and his plans to marry a woman in the Temple. Andrews talks about the need for more stories of Latter-day Saints with SSA who have conservative views and are living lives within Church teachings—and the need to better support these members. This led to Andrew starting a podcast called “Sons of God: Conservative Views on Faith & Same-Sex Attraction.” I was deeply moved listening to Andrew and this commitment to the Gospel, faith, self-awareness and finding peace on a very difficult road. You are a good man Andrew—thank you for your courage to share your story—it helps reduce shame, gives hopes, and helps more feel belonging. Your work is helping so many! Links: Facebook page: www.facebook.com/sonsofgodpodcast Email: contact.sonsofgodpodcast@gmail.com Linktree: linktr.ee/sonsofgodpodcast Richard Ostler books/bio/etc.: www.papaostler.com Facebook Group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143