Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

This episode is guest-hosted by my friend, Tonya Miller. Tonya was on episode 501 and wrote the third chapter in my most recent book, called “Ministering To Those With Church-Generated Pain or Trauma.” Tonya interviews Stacie Proctor, who joins us to talk about her life as a mom, wife, business executive, and active member of the Church, who also lives with bipolar disorder. Stacie was diagnosed in her twenties, when she experienced an episode of psychosis that resulted in her being hospitalized. Stacie describes these events, and others associated with it, that set the stage for a fundamental shift in her worldview and testimony. She gives us a glimpse into what she learned about acceptance of limitations, and ways that this can lead to heightened perspectives and deep peace that would have been unimaginable had she not gone through the frightening experiences surrounding her diagnosis. She talks about a period of time during which she knew she needed to take some space from full activity in the Church, and discusses the stigma associated with mental illness that still often exists within LDS culture. Stacie describes the ways she has been able to reconcile this fact with her faith, and how this paved the way for her to return to active participation in the Church with a renewed sense of identity and purpose. Stacie is very dedicated to the process of fostering community connections, not just within the Church, but also within families, government, and business, and has developed a variety of platforms to promote these ideas. For example, she is the founder and CEO of Gathrd, and is currently serving as Mrs. Vineyard, Utah; she utilizes these positions as way to spread her message: “It Takes a Village: Restoring Community & Connection Through Collaboration”. Stacie also talks about motherhood and ways that living with mental health challenges can impact those she loves most. I am so grateful for Stacie and her willingness to talk about these subjects. It takes a lot of courage to give voice to mental health issues, especially when we dialogue about them as lived experiences, rather than in an academic way. Most people agree that mental health is an important topic but still find it an incredibly uncomfortable thing to talk about. Stacie’s story is brave and compelling, and I am grateful for her willingness to be candid about topics that can be confusing. I believe listeners will feel more hopeful about whatever they are facing after listening to Stacie’s story. As a side note, I am focusing only on sharing stories associated with the Queer-LDS experience now. However, if you would like to share your story about a different Church- or gospel-related topic on Listen, Learn and Love, please contact Tonya about the possibility of working with her as my guest-host (e-mail Tonya at tonya@cottonwood.care).

My friend Dale Schafer (California Convert, Adelaide Australia ’79-81 RM, Twice Excommunicated, Lives with his husband in Hudson Valley, NY) joins us to share his story his life as a gay Latter-day Saint. Dale starts with his childhood of feeling like an outcast/not belonging because of his sexual attraction to men. Dale talks about his conversation story followed by his desire to serve a mission (good experience). Dale talks about trying to be honest/live with integrity as he did his best to move forward (came out to mom, mission president, BYU counseling center, broke off an engagement, and his bishop). Dale talks about being excommunicated but then rebaptized while at Utah State and then moving to Boston where he stepped away from the Church—but always felt it was his spiritual home. Dale talks about these years including becoming HIV+ and how his testimony kept him alive. Dale talks about finding his husband (been together for over twenty years) and also attending his local LDS branch (positive experiences with branch president and missionaries). Dale talks about being excommunicated for the second time when the November 2015 policy and how he wishes that had turned out differently. Dale talks about his deep testimony of the Church, God’s love, his wish to take to sacrament—all with a personal feeling this will all work out and “follow me, and all will be well.”. I wish I could include more of Dale’s story shared on the podcast in this brief description. I was so moved listening to Dale’s story and grateful for his courage to share it with our listeners. You are a good man, Dale. All my love and support. Your story will help so many! Links: Dale’s e-mail: daleschafer@gmail.com Dale’s Instagram: @daleschafer

My friend Scott Gover (late 40’s, lives north of London, left church in his 20’s, returned 18 years later, active for last 11 years) joins us to share his story. Scott starts with his growing up years having a deep testimony of the Church and also realizing his was gay. After many unanswered prayers to change his sexual orientation, Scott concluded “I was so evil, that I was beyond God’s love and the atonement” and was going to end up somewhere between “outer darkness and the telestial kingdom.” It’s heartbreaking to hear Scott’s conclusions—which are logical conclusions for a closeted gay Latter-day Saint. Scott talks about eventually leaving the Church for 18 years—even with a testimony of the Church all those years. Scott talks talking to Elder Murdock and Cuche and deeply spiritual experience including Elder Murdock’s testimony that led Scott back into the Church. Scott talks about a disciplinary council (positive experience) that returned him to full fellowship, a Stake that put him to work (Elder Quorum President, High Councilor, etc), and a loving a supportive Ward family including his lifelong friend Lillian. It is a beautiful story of belonging and creating Zion. Scott talks about living “without all the answers” for queer people in the Church and his hope for more light and understanding. Scott talks about his Stake Conference talk (see show notes) being led by the Spirit to talk about being a gay Latter-day Saint—and all the positive/supportive comments he received. I was so moved listening to Scott. His spiritual maturity, his ability to survive his early years, his journey out and then back into the Church, his support system, and all the good he is going to help others feel God’s love and the healing powerful of the Atonement. Scott is helping expand the boarders of Zion and bring more hope, unity, and healing." Links: Stake Conference Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsM3SvNqFTs&t=3660s E-mail: uther2006@yahoo.co.uk Blog: http://www.thebookofgrover.co.uk/ Facebook Group to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

This episode is guest-hosted by my friend Steven Kapp Perry from the “In Good Faith” podcast. He interviews John Gustav-Wrathall (a dear friend and mentor) who appeared in an early episode—Episode 49—which we’ll link to below. John shares some of his earliest spiritual experiences, which gave him a solid faith in God, and then describes his journey of listening to and following the clear promptings of the Spirit, even when that inspiration surprised him and was not what he was expecting. That included a life-saving impression to step away from the church for a time, and then, surprisingly, a call to return to it. We’ll also hear how John’s patience in certain painful situations at church later led to growth and change in the very people who had caused that distress. Thanks, John, for your courage to continue to share your story. I learn so much from you. Links: Episode 49: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-49-john-gustav-wrathall-same-sex-marriage-affirmation-executive-director Link to Emmaus Ministry: http://www.emmauslgbtq.org Link to the In Good Faith podcast: http://www.byuradio.org/ingoodfaith Link to Episode 586: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-586-steven-kapp-perry-gay-latter-day-saint-byu-employee-israel-tour-director

My friend Jacob Troxel (who recorded this podcast three weeks after his successful mission in Canada Edmonton) joins us to bravely share his experiences as a gay Latter-day Saint and one of the first openly gay missionaries in the Church (which is noted on his Facebook profile). Jacob (who grew up in Camarillo) talks about realizing he might be different around age 12 and then came out to his Bishop and parents at age 16. Jacob talks about how he probably wouldn’t have stayed in the Church without the loving first response from his Bishop. Jacob talks about a powerful spiritual experience where his belief in God shifted from “having a testimony that He doesn’t love someone like me—to God is perfectly loving and loves me.” That is the anchor knowledge that has given Jacob peace as a gay Latter-day Saint and his burning desire to serve a mission so others could know that important gospel truth. Jacob takes us on his mission and shares the both the difficult experiences and the positive ones—ones where lives were changed. Jacob talks about the importance of proximity with stories of how companions did a “180” to full love, understand and support Jacob. These stories give me hope. Jacob also talks about how investigators and members concluded from Jacob’s example that “if there is room for Elder Troxel in the Church, maybe there is room for me.” Jacob is honest the positive experiences—made possible because he was open—and how those were matched by deeply wounding experiences which reminds me of Zechariah 13:6 “…. wounded in the house of my friends.” Jacob talks about boundaries, being honest with his pain, and finding grace for others. Jacob talks about his supportive parents as he makes his way forward. This is one of the best podcasts we’ve done as I was so moved listening to Jacob—a very mature soul. If you are considering a mission, on a mission or want to better support queer Latter-day Saints, this podcast will help you. Thank you, Jacob, for your serve in Canada and helping many feel the love of God and a home in our restored Church. Thank you for your courage to serve—you are a trailblazer for others who will walk this road. Thank you for helping us expanding the boarders of Zion so more feel welcome, understood, and needed in our Church and beyond. You have a great life ahead of you! Lists: Jacob’s e-mail: jacobrtroxel@gmail.com Facebook: www.facebook.com/jacob.troxel.18 Instagram: www.instagram.com/jacobrtroxel/ Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-Day Saint FB Group: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

My friend Lindsey Sais joins us to share her powerful story. Lindsey (early 40s, married for 5 years to her wife Connie, lives in Raleigh NC) joins us to bravely share her story of being divorced at age 23, coming out as gay that same year, working through addiction, being an ex-felon, and suicidal ideation. Lindsey talks about how addiction is not a moral failure—but rather a human reality from taking drugs/alcohol—which often starts to escape pain. Lindsey shares the process she took (along with God’s help) to become sober on Feb 13, 2013—it is a moving story that gives hope to others. Lindsey talks about how Christ’s love/atonement is not earned—it is just there for all of us—and how she accesses that love in her darkest days to feel hope and healing. Lindsey shared many lessons, perspectives, and insights for those in dark places to find a way forward—and the positive role of her parents on this long road. Lindsey talks about finding her soulmate in her wife Connie and how that relationship (based on trust, communication, and loyalty) has helped her become a better person and have more stability. Lindsey, who had her Latter-day Saint membership withdrawn in 2022, talks about her constant testimony of the Church and attending her supportive Ward. Thank you, Lindsey, for your courage to be on the podcast and share your story which helps so many find hope, healing, and peace. Honored to have you on the podcast and feel such a strong Sprit as you share your story. Links: Lindsay on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/palomas.gris https://www.instagram.com/kantyoudigit Lift and Love Story: https://www.instagram.com/p/CVA-1laBcnh/?igsh=MWc2NXNxM2hrcmQ3eA%3D%3D Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-Day Saint FB Group: Ministering Resources to support LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints

My friends Josh and Jen Rollins (married for 26 years, parents of 5, live in Riverton Utah, active LDS) share their story of their middle child Aiden coming out as gay, then their oldest children Jace coming out as gay and later transgender, and then their second-oldest Chelsea coming out as bisexual. Josh (who was serving as Bishop during much of this time) and Jen share how their family went from fitting the perfect Latter-day Saint mold to where they are today—a beautiful family united in their love for each other and creating space for the lived experiences of each family member. Jen and Josh are honest that their journey has been difficult as their LGBTQ kids didn’t find it possible to find a place in the Church—and how they needed to reconstruct their hopes/dreams. Jen and Josh talk about their constant reliance of prayer and direction from Heavenly Parents. Jen and Josh talk about how having LGBTQ kids isn’t a “trial”—because their kids are great human beings doing much good in the world—that there is nothing wrong or that needs to be fixed with their sexual orientation/gender identity—but rather the “trial” is for their LGBTQ kids to find a place in the Church full of hope, support and understanding. I was so moved listening to Jen and Josh—two wonderful parents who have been on this road for 5+ years. If you are a new to the blessing of being a parent (or family member/ally) to a LGBTQ child, please listen to this episode—it will give you insights to walk your road and love your LGBTQ loved one. Jen and Josh conclude on why they stay members of the Church. Thank you, Jen and Josh, for being on the podcast. Your story will help so many. Links: Jan 2024 Leading Saints Story: leadingsaints.org/the-portrait-of-an-lbgtq-family-he-is-at-the-helm/ April 2021 Lift and Love Profile: www.instagram.com/p/COQIkF3h2ku/?img_index=1 Nov 2020 Human Stories Podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/77-human-stories-jessica-and-josh-rollins/id1468623842?i=1000500809211 Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-Day Saint FB Group: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

Lily Prisbrey shares her powerful missionary homecoming talk, discussing scrupulosity, finding God in the Filipino people, and her journey of self-acceptance. She emphasizes the importance of embracing imperfections, inviting diverse individuals to serve missions, and creating a welcoming and accepting community. Lily's vulnerability and strength inspire others to find God's love and serve despite personal challenges.

My friend Zak Hazlett (Masters Degree in Marriage and Family Therapy from BYU) joins us from his home in Moab, Utah to talk about his life mission to bring more kindness, love, understanding into our community. Zak (who grew up running rivers in Southern Utah) talks about merging this love of the outdoors and his desire to help others into a career as a therapist and relationship coach—which is captured in his fast-growing Instagram Account called @the_outdoor_therapist. In the podcast, Zak talks about how to better love and accept ourselves, love others, learn to forgive ourselves/others, find hope/healing and be a better people. Zak also talks about working as a student therapist in the BYU Comprehensive Clinic—where he had many visits with queer BYU students. He talks about what he learned, how to better listen, how we don’t always have the answer, how his heart changed, and how he loves this group of people. I was deeply moved listening to Zak—his great heart—his work—and his ability to communicate principles in an effective and practical way to bless others/help ourselves. Zak represents a rising generation focused on love, understanding, inclusion and healing. Zak—and thousands more like him—give me hope for the future. Honored to have you on the podcast. I encourage everyone to listen to the episode and follow your Instagram account. Links: Zak’s Instagram Account: @the_outdoor_therapist

Our friend Ben Schilaty (who recently turned 40 and is co-host with Charlie Bird on the Questions from the Closet podcast) joins us to talk about his decision to date men, his commitment to our Church and the gospel of Jesus Christ, his decision to leave BYU (on good terms) and start his career as a therapist (Ben has a Masters in this field) focusing of helping LGBTQ folks and their families in Utah. Ben also talks about the new Gatherings groups using the Book of Mormon/Come Follow Me to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. Ben concluded with his latest insights from the Book of Mormon. As usual, I was deeply moved listening to Ben’s latest thoughts on his personal life, his career, what we can do to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and his scriptural insights to create Zion. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this podcast. Thank you Ben for all your efforts to create more understanding, unity and hope. Honored to have you on the podcast and count you as a friend! Links: Ben’s Nov 2023 Blog: https://www.benschilaty.com/post/up-to-date Ben’s e-mail: benschilatytherapy@gmail.com Ben's Book: www.amazon.com/dp/1629728535 Questions from the Closet Podcast: questionsfromthecloset.com Gatherings Web Site: https://gather-conference.com/gatherings LDS Ministering Resources Site: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/counseling-resources/same-sex-attraction