Climify

Episode 4 – Katharine Poole Katharine Poole joins Eric to share how her skillsets as both a climate scientist and a brand designer are a perfect combination to craft better and more informed communication strategies for organizations and campaigns. She also explains why designers should reach out to climate scientists to collaborate as climate change needs a rebrand. Listen to this episode on: Spotify, Apple, Google and other places you get your podcasts About our guestKatharine Poole is a Climate Change Specialist and Designer with a Master's in Climate and Society from Columbia University. Most recently, she led the brand design for Twitter and climate journalist Eric Holthaus’ new local weather service, “Currently”. She’s focused on giving climate change the rebrand it deserves by integrating climate action with design.On the webkatharinepoole.me Ttwitter.com/katharinepooleMusic in this episodeThe musical guest is Alexander Roman from the band Free Paintings performing "She's Got Me Riding" from the album Free Paintings for Sale.Theme music by Casual Motive   Climate Design AssignmentsAt the end of each episode, we ask our guests what their ideal climate design project would be. They have four weeks with a class full of design students. We translated their response into a project brief that you can use for your class. Get Assignments   Follow Climify on IG   « Back to episodes   Episode Transcript[00:00:57] Eric: Welcome to Climify I'm Eric Benson, and I'll be your host this season as we talk to climate experts from all over the world. To help us design educators fight the climate crisis in our classrooms. And yes, I'm also a design educator. I've been teaching for 15 years here at the University of Illinois.[00:01:21] Eric: But even if you're not a design educator, listening to this show, there’s so much useful information jam packed in each. That you too can learn how to do your part to help reduce our greenhouse gas emissions.Today, I'm excited to have on the program. Katherine Poole. Katherine Poole is a climate change specialist and designer with a Master's in climate and society from Columbia University. Most recently she lived the brand design for Twitter and climate journalist, Eric Holthaus', new local weather service called Currently.She's focused on giving climate change. The rebrand it deserves by integrating climate action. With design. You can follow Katherine on Twitter at Katherinepoole. That's K AT H A R I N E P O O L E. And you can find her online at Katherinepoole. Me.Katherine, it's wonderful to meet you. I'm glad that you're here. And so, let's get started really with the basics, you know, who are you, what do you do? And, and where do you do it?[00:02:32] Katharine: I'm a climate change specialist and designer. I have a master's from the Climate and Society Program at Columbia University, where I studied. The intersection of climate and how it impacts the people, places and things that we all care about. Um, currently I'm specializing in brand design and content creation, some communication strategy for climate related organizations and campaigns.Previous to that, uh, I was teaching climate mitigation and adaptation at Clinton University and also at a climate education nonprofit. And most recently  and currently working with Twitter and climate journalists, Eric Holthaus', doing brand design for his new collaborative weather service called Currently.[00:03:24] Eric: You're the perfect guest, because you know, both things that were, we wanted to talk about today, climate and design. And so how did you get involved in design then? Um, and how are you, uh, navigating working in both, both fields, kind of at the same time?[00:03:44] Katharine: I got into design because I felt that the issue with climate change was more of a messaging issue than a scientific issue. And the only way to really communicate that is to have visuals and assets and campaigns. That really emphasize not only the human aspect of climate change, but. The scale and severity.I think oftentimes we don't talk about climate. It's kind of a, a silent issue. Uh, that's changed in the past few years due to, you know, youth climate movements and more serious politicians that are trying to focus on it a little bit more. Um, but yeah, that, that's how I got into design. I'm pretty self-taught.I love YouTube. I love taking design courses. Um, I love learning from other people. And in grad school we touched a lot on design thinking, and I think that was a big influence into me recognizing that that was a big way to solve climate changes, to kind of use design wisely and respectfully in a way that works with communities, but also, you know, really does a powerful job at advertising the issue in what we need to do.[00:05:08] Eric: Yeah. So, you said it's a communication issue. So how do you think, um, design can, can help fix that communication issue?[00:05:16] Katharine: I think climate change needs a rebrand. I think that's really the key here. Um, climate change is pretty in my opinion, uh, elitist sometimes and has a little bit of an issue where climate scientists are oftentimes talking to themselves. And there are a lot of wonderful climate communicators that's for sure.But I think that for the most part, you know, people aren't reading academic texts, they're not reading the IPC report. They are looking online. They're looking at social media, they're looking at the companies they follow and. Uh, consume from, to kind of reflect what's going on. They're looking at meteorologist when the weather gets crazy.Um, and there are so few meteorologists that are making that clear connection and explicit connection between climate and weather. Um, so I think it's just not integrated necessarily into our communication structures. And you can see that, you know, based on. The failure sometimes of, uh, international climate negotiations, as well as the, the lack of climate questions.It almost like every year, you know, presidential debate, uh, mayoral debate. And, you know, this is something that's going to impact everybody, uh, whether they like it or not. And I think it's a lot easier to not talk about it, but it's also almost disrespectful not to talk about it, right. When people are already dealing.With climate change. Currently, there are a lot of people who are bearing the brunt of climate change first, and they're not necessarily in the global north, but I think the global north has obviously, you know, super complicit and responsible for the situation that we find ourselves in. So, it's important to keep talking about it and, and listen to not only the youth who are doing a great job. Advocating for a livable, but also the, the people who are being impacted right now, I think they're often ignored, and climate change is viewed as a, a later issue or a future problem, but it has been a problem. It is a problem and will continue to get worse unless we start really taking it more seriously and communicate.[00:07:44] Eric: Yeah, I love that idea of the rebrand and that's something where…[00:07:49] Katharine: We're trying.[00:07:50] Eric: Yeah. So, yeah, they kind of leads me to my next question for you is that, I'm really interested in how you got involved in all of your environmental justice and climate work, everyone that I've talked to, um, on this program and then out in the world that is involved with social justice, environmental justice issues had something that, you know, stirred them or some epiphany or something that they couldn't unsee. And I'm wondering how you got interested in this and, and why.[00:08:26] Katharine: I don't think climate change was really ever on my radar until I lived in New Orleans. And, um, in Louisiana they're geographically very vulnerable to climate change. Right. So. That really reinforced the urgency of mitigating and adapting to climate change. Um, just by living there, you know, I, I constantly encountered reminders of destruction and unpreparedness from city officials, um, from environmental disasters that really tested the resilience of the city and are kind of a perfect example of what will happen to other cities as well.Um, I think probably the, the, the real factor in me getting interested in climate change was, uh, taking a climate science course and listening to my professor, uh, at Tulane advocate for immediate action. While I was very aware that I was sitting in a classroom, I was probably going to be underwater during my lifetime.Um, it was jarring and pretty traumatic to be honest, but it was also motivating because I felt. I almost had more of a purpose by understanding the severity of the situation. And, you know, I learned a lot about the historical and current environmental injustice issues in Louisiana of which there are too many and got an understanding of how it mentally and emotionally, physically, and socially impacted.Right. Um, when you live there, it's pretty hard not to feel terrified during hurricane season.[00:10:06] Eric: Hm.[00:10:07] Katharine: Um, there's a lot of, yeah. Underlying anxiety, even when it rains, it floods, um, you know, people lose their cars every time it rains and have real issues that aren't necessarily attributed to climate but are impacted by climate.And I was lucky enough to witness firsthand all the land loss and cultural loss that we've had through the protective wetlands disappearing at extraordinary speeds. that's because of decades of oil development. Um, and they have the oil and gas industry has a pretty big hold on the state. So, it was really interesting to see the political dynamics and the climate dynamics that were influencing it.Um, and I think that just residing in a city with a lot to lose, um, not only solidified my interest in studying climate change, but yeah. Really made me understand the urgency in a way that I don't know I could have if I hadn't personally experienced it, which I think is the case with a lot of people right there, it's easy to ignore climate unless you see it, how it impacts the places you love, the people you love and yourself selfishly.Um, it's really. Kind of amazing to get that experience. And you know, there wasn't a lot of climate education opportunities while I was at Tulane but yeah. I really felt unsatisfied when I was about to graduate with my education in it. And there's a lot to learn online. You can definitely get a pretty good climate science and climate policy education for free online, but I felt that I needed some more formal education and climate physics and coding and trying to figure out how to really understand climate.In almost every aspect and get it interdisciplinary and education. So, I ended up applying to the program at Columbia, thankfully got accepted and, uh, here we are now.[00:12:17] Eric: So that one lecture was this like moment where you said I have to do something, this, this is immediate danger and I'm wondering. From the climate communication perspective, what did the professor do? How did he communicate this? Or she, I didn't catch what you said, but, um, uh, yeah. How did, how did he, um, grab you by your heartstrings or whatever, whatever it was to get you so motivated, what did they do?[00:12:51] Katharine: I think he was just honest. And I think that was something I had never really encountered before. I think sometimes professors, um, not sugar coat, but maybe don't really show how, you know, the subjects they're teaching have really impacted them. Um, rather it's a little bit more sterile and, uh, analytical rather than emotional and yeah.And I had never, in my life taken a climate science course, so it was really difficult, and I did pretty awfully for the first test or two, uh, and. Somehow, it just clicked. I think learning about it and hearing someone who definitely knows what they're talking about, tell you what's going on in a way that you haven't heard that before is really powerful.And there was always a lot of humor integrated into discussions, right? Like it was a traumatic class for sure, in the truest sense of the word, but it also was nice too. Laugh and to try to figure out what the solutions are. Um, I think there was just a lot of creative freedom, even though it was a science class.We didn't always focus on the science. Right. We focused on the human aspect and, um, and then also just being available to students. I think the fact that even after I failed the first test or two, um, That the professor didn't really give up on my interest and kind of took my interest seriously, even though I was very much struggling with trying to figure out physics when I had never done that before, uh, was really motivating and encouraging and, and, you know, treating people with respect and, you know, like they have what it takes to succeed, even if it's not evident at the.[00:14:44] Eric: As an educator, that's something that, um, we're supposed to do where not all of us do it, but we're…[00:14:51] Katharine: Yeah, exactly.[00:14:53] Eric: we're supposed to be there too. Help the student, no matter what level. Right. Um, you also said something there, which I thought was, um, so true, which is that just humanity in general, right?Doesn't seem to, to act or to take things seriously until it happens to them, right? It's this like self-righteous ego and you know whether it be a health scare, whether it be an accident or climate change, you know?Um, do you have any thoughts about how we as a society, we can change that, you know, psychology of don't wait until it happens to you, you know, put, you know, put your seatbelt on now and let's get bigger this out.[00:15:46] Katharine: Yeah. Lucky enough in grad school to take a semester long writing workshops seminar with, uh, justice writer, Mary Hagar. And she was very focused on kind of demonstrating the power of a personal story and, you know, personal narratives. And I thought that was really interesting. I, she created a, basically like a 12-week list. Reading and it was all themed differently, but a lot of what I read was something I had just never heard of before. And I was, you know, really struggling with my grad program because it was emotionally very heavy to go into class every day and realize, oh, we have real issues. And having the smartest scientists in the world come at you and say, you know, we're.We're not doing good and we're going to do a lot worse and feeling very helpless and powerless in that situation. So, it was nice to kind of go into a different environment where I could take what I learned about climate change and climate science and see how climate change really impacted people. And not only reading, you know, narratives from the past couple of years and seeing how the dialogue has shifted from, you know, silence to a more robust language and, uh, advancing that dialogue, but also going back and, you know, reading texts from James Baldwin and MLK and seeing that, even though they weren't explicitly talking about climate change in a lot of those texts, They were, and you could take what they said, you know, decades ago and shift a few words and modify a few things.And you're, you're in 2021 you're in the century. Um, you're, you're really realizing that even though we've come a long way in many aspects, that we're still also in a lot of the same places that we've been before. And I think that gave me a lot of comfort, right? To know that people have been thinking this way.Stuff for a while and have articulated. It was reassuring, but also frightening, right? Like if I could write like James Baldwin and not make a difference, what does that really say? I mean, not that he didn't make a difference, but you know, we're still in a big climate crisis, so it's tough. I think, you know, using the power of personal storytelling, respecting people's stories, listening to people's stories and.[00:18:27] Eric: Yeah.[00:18:28] Katharine: Kind of identifying yourself in those, you know, text was really a big, um, a big influence in not only me feeling more emotionally healthy when it comes to dealing with climate change, but also understanding why I was doing what I was doing and why it matters and how to better communicate.[00:18:52] Eric: Yeah, that's personal storytelling is something that, um, definitely people who make visual designs or photography or videography. Be important part of it. And one of the other conversations I had, we talked about videography or filming what climate scientists actually do to tell that story of what's going on there.Not just some, you know, making, what is, what is the, uh, some of the recent, uh, attacks on climate scientists that they're just rich living off grants, you know, like that, that, that isn't the reality. No,[00:19:28] Katharine: I wish.[00:19:29] Eric: Yeah. You said you felt pretty helpless. Like, um, I think that's common. Um, I, I feel that way a lot.[00:19:38] Katharine: Yeah.[00:19:39] Eric: Um, I try to push through that.I try to find little pieces of hope, big pieces of hope, you know, that's even better. Um, what do you do or what do you recommend people do when? They're feeling that way. Right. And you know, what can they look to for, to move past that sense of helpless helplessness and to into action or, or something that, um, keeps them motivated?[00:20:08] Katharine: Yeah.It's really important to allow yourself to kind of go through the stages of grief and really be okay with that. I think you can really get stuck in the anger stage or the denial stage. Um, but once you're getting through that and past that you can kind of have more of an acceptance of the situation.And I think that really frees up your, your mind to. Doing what you can. Um, there is a really good essay by my old professor, Kate Marvel, who is a climate scientist and a NASA research scientist. And she has an article about, you know, we need courage, not hope to face climate change. And the theory behind her argument is that climate change.Definitely going to be bad that there's no way around getting, um, the physics of that mitigated. Right. Um, you know, it's a lot is locked in already and so many around the world, whether people realize it or not yet are dealing with the traumatic impacts of it. Um, but we need to continue to fight and work really hard, especially if you can.Um, any amount of privilege in this world, uh, without the assurance of a happy ending, I think that's really something I've had to like to internalize. Like it may not work out and it's sad to, you know, live in a place like Louisiana and, and see, see the future almost when you're walking around and feeling that wow. That weight and heaviness around you, but it's worth it anyway, right? Like we need to do it. Um, and if you have the, you know, time and space to get involved and contribute whatever talents or perspectives you have, then you should, um, you know, it's not going to be pretty and it's going to be a really hard fight, but it's the only way to.Do anything. So, I think, you know, really internalizing that thing and the notion that you're doing this because you need to, because you want to, um, and you don't need things to be perfect or you don't need, um, that reassurance of a happy ending to keep on going. I think that's really difficult but embracing that courage.Ki. Um, so I encourage everyone to check out her article because she's much more[00:22:54] Eric: Hey marble.[00:22:55] Katharine: Uh, yeah, she is. She's a great climate communicator. Um, and I think that her perspective on that notion is spot on[00:23:04] Eric: Well, we'll find it and we'll put it in our show notes for everyone.[00:23:07] Katharine: lovely.[00:23:08] Eric: So once, once I get through the seven stages of grief, Yeah, once everyone does. Um, uh, what do you think like the, the number one thing that just an ordinary person in the country should do to get involved or make an impact, make a positive impact?[00:23:28] Katharine: I think the most important thing that needs to be done by everyday people to fight climate change is to talk about it. Katharine Hayhoe who is a climate scientist and professor at Texas Tech University has a wonderful Ted talk on that concept. And I, once again, encourage people to find that or watch that, uh, she basically says that, you know, climate.Is often not talked about either because people don't feel like they are knowledgeable enough to talk about climate, or they don't want to talk about climate. And I think that's true, but you know, when it comes to feeling unqualified to talk about climate, like you are the expert of your own life and you know how climate has impacted you, even if you don't necessarily know the physics of how it's impacted you, you can know.You know, the social aspects of how it's affected your life and the things you love and where you live. Um, so I think that.[00:24:32] Eric: Okay.[00:24:33] Katharine: It's important to break the silence on climate and kind of integrate it into all your conversations, even if, you know, if you're in a state where climate change, isn't really accepted talking about it as extreme weather or as justice issues is just as important as talking about, you know, the physical dynamics of climate.So, I think really. Trying to figure out ways to talk to your Uber driver about climate change or talk to, you know, your friends or your family about climate does one. Because not only does it help you enhance your own communication skills and your own thinking about the topic, but also helps you empathize a lot more where, where people are coming from.Um, and I think having that empathy and respect for people and how they think about the world, even if you very much disagree with how they think about it, can teach you a lot about how you need to be commuted, to be successful.[00:25:34] Eric: We need conversation starters for our, you know, sitting on the plane next to someone or sitting in the coffee shop.[00:25:42] Katharine: I can't say that you're going to make too many friends, but I think that, um, it could be a good experience. I meant for you to practice your effective communication skills, you know, your invites to parties may decrease, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. And then yeah.[00:26:04] Eric: It's a needed.[00:26:06] Katharine: Yeah.I think another thing that's really key that I think is really overlooked as a climate solution is supporting and elevating women's voices. Um, that's a really big thing we can do to take on climate change and. You know, documented pretty well that women and girls are disproportionately impacted by the effects of climate, especially when it comes to disasters and, you know, having to take care of families.Um, so I think that it's really key that we do what we can, where we're at to not only respect women and their voices, but also to provide or encourage that access to education. And, you know, in organizations. Promote women into leadership positions because, you know, I don't know if you've heard of project drawdown, but they say that,[00:27:00] Eric: I was going to say that it's like one of the top two things.[00:27:03] Katharine: It is one of the top things you can do. And even though, you know, people on an individual basis don't necessarily have right. The, the power to, you know, you know, make most of the boards of climate organizations. So women, I think that even in your own life kind of reflecting about how you respect people, um, as well as, uh, Encouraging the organizations or political structures that you are a member of, or you, you know, subscribe to, to really go all in on that climate change solution is a great thing that you can do with your privilege and also your free time.[00:27:47] Eric: Okay. That's great. Cause you know, my next thought is like, our audience is mainly designed educators. We're pretty privileged.[00:27:55] Katharine: Yeah.[00:27:56] Eric: um, we, uh, we're doing something that we love to do. And, um, helping others and doing it. Uh, what do you, what role do you think we play in, in helping fight the climate crisis as a, as a design educator?[00:28:11] Katharine: I think that, you know, not only do we need emissions reduction solutions to fight climate change, but we also really need education solutions, um, you know, educating and engaging. Children youth, adults and climate solutions and supporting their creativity, um, too. Implements and develop climate action projects in their own personal lives or in their schools or their community is really key.And I think that also comes down to supporting the creativity of teachers and professors as well. Um, I think that teachers and administrators seem really eager in my opinion, to take up this challenge, but a common concern and hesitation that I've found is that. They need more training, and they need the relevant learning materials to do so.And that's not often provided, I mean, you can be a kindergarten teacher and not have that, but you can also be a tenured university professor who doesn't have that support as well.[00:29:12] Eric: Oh, my gosh. Yeah,[00:29:15] Katharine: Yeah,[00:29:15] Eric: true. I mean, it's kind of like educating the educators really on this.[00:29:22] Katharine: I think that, you know, it's a big role for, you know, administrators. Because so many youth want to study climate, but they have very few universities or schools or programs to do so at. Uh, so I think that not only could it help admissions and retention for schools, but it also can really make a positive impact from a university.And it's something that. Uh, a slam dunk PR wise to do so, as long as they're, you know, not also taking money from, you know, fossil fuel companies, et cetera, which is always an uphill battle. But I think that educators should really be encouraged to figure out how climate change will impact their field. Um, because chances are it most likely will and then figure out a plan to.Integrate that into their teaching fully, um, and also be really opened to listening to what their students want um, what their hopes are and what their fears are, their concerns, and essentially just create that environment for them to feel empowered, to take action and not necessarily. Yeah. Traumatize them or, you know, um, make them feel scared, right?Like I think that's a big thing that, you know, even climate scientists really do.well. Right. They have a lot of their own fear, and they project that out onto their audiences. And I think that it's important for you, not only as an educator to kind of work through that fear and figure out, you know, I feel this way, but I'm not going to, you know, tell people how to feel.Right. It's there. It's their right to feel the way they need to, to cope with something like this. And to instill that kind of fear just isn't helpful in my opinion. So, you know, trying to figure out ways to empower them and facilitate that learning and engagement is crucial for design educators to be.[00:31:19] Eric: Yeah, I like that answer. I mean, I love that answer because that's hopefully what this podcast will be helping. Our design educator friends do is, is learn more about what they can do and how they can help. Um, And I also think your answer is, you know, very reminiscent to what you experienced in the class with your professor.That honesty, I think is super important. That's something I'm taking away from this conversation is I've taught, um, climate ethics in a design class. And it was more about what the students felt and how[00:31:54] Katharine: Yeah.[00:31:55] Eric were working through it. And they were emotional about it. They were upset, but I never shared my own.Um, beers and I think that's something I'll have to do going forward because, um, I think they want to hear from me based on what you're saying, that, that I need to be more honest about my fears and what I'm doing.[00:32:17] Katharine: I think students really look up to professors and kind of use him as a bellwether for how they should be feeling about a certain topic or subject. And even though you could very much disagree with your professor and some students make, you know, write you a Massy course review saying[00:32:31] Eric: Especially on grades.[00:32:34] Katharine: Um, I think that it's worth to experiment with, right? Yeah. Even if it's one class like opening up about how you feel, or if you're presenting a lecture presentation, you know, including a slide or just an anecdote about why you think it's important to be doing this. Um, I think that's really interesting and something that students don't have access to a lot, like I said before, like subjects are very clinical and cold sometimes and that emotional aspect, or just an understanding. Feelings is really lacking, um, sometimes, but yeah, I encourage you to do that. Yeah.[00:33:12] Eric: Well, this seems like a good time for a quick break. We will be right back after these messagesWell, you know, as a, as a design educator, myself and others who are listening might wonder what can they bring from climate science, your field, into our design classrooms. To a set of projects, um, uh, to maybe even a seminar, like what, what kind of things do you recommend is uneducated or bring from your field into ours?Um, to, to kind of continue that conversation. That's so important.[00:36:42] Katharine: I think that Brittany, even just a basic understanding of the science and scope of climate change is really important for design education. Um, it's hard for people to understand what's going on with them. That knowledge and toolkit to really not only see their role in the problem, but also to see society's role in the problem.Um, you know, design is about society. So, it's about how we interact with the world, how we communicate with each other. And if you're not including, you know, the greatest problem that humans are going to be facing for the next, who knows how long? Um, I think that's a real. A real failure. So, I think that understanding the physical world and the physics of what what's happening, even if it's really basic, um, is really transformative and also really cool.I think I never saw myself as a science person before I started to get into this, but I think that, you know, learning about stuff, mines not only helped me figure out how the world works and why it's so. Incredible and something worth protecting, but also how I relate to the world. I think that was really a key, right?Like if I can understand why something's happening, I think that it makes me feel more confident in my ability to explain the situation and also take action. Right. I think that's the whole reason I went to grad school was because I needed to learn more. But I also think that you don't need to get a master's in climate change to, to take action, right?Like[00:38:24] Eric: good to hear.[00:38:25] Katharine: Yeah.definitely. And you know, you know, economically sometimes it's very much not feasible to do so. So, I think that finding all the free resources you can, like utilizing, like I said before, like utilizing YouTube and utilizing free courses on climate, listening to lectures about climate, I think that can really help.And for professors, yeah.I think bringing in people or experts and communities who have been affected by design issues and climate change or climate change is important. Um, I'm a, like I said before, a big believer in the power of personal narratives and storytelling to facilitate change. So, giving some space for those communities and experts to talk and share about their stories and perspectives and experiences can really connect the dots together for designs.And, um, you know, climate scientists are always eager to talk. I think they are always looking for people to listen to them. Uh, I think, uh, you know, some of them are, you know, more high-profile than others. Right. And don't have the time to come to every lecture class you give, but yeah.You'd be probably surprised at how open they are to helping and teaching students, especially.Um, so I think facilitating those connections, you know, looking for, you know, the climate scientists within your university, uh, is really. Oh, low cost, high reward way to show students, you know, this is not only a career path for you, but it's also a way for you to integrate the things you love, which is design and the earth, hopefully.Um, so Yeah.[00:40:04] Eric: I'm glad that you're volunteering to come part in my class.[00:40:08] Katharine: no, no. We can find, we can find some people for[00:40:10] Eric: Yeah, but I also love the idea of having people that are or have been, or are currently affected by, climate issues. Also there, that's not something I thought of actually. , but that seems like. From your storytelling perspective. And as designers, a lot of times say they're storytellers, that's arguable and debatable.But, that story I think is super important. , not only the science part, but Hey, it happened. It's happening right now in my neighborhood.[00:40:40] Katharine: Yeah. And even if you can't get, you know, someone with a crazy personal story that will change your whole life, uh, in your classroom or on your zoom classroom, I think that. There are so many articles and storytelling already on the internet and it's free usually if there's not a paywall. So, I think that, you know, just putting that in the syllabus can be really influential.Even if students don't necessarily understand why, it's relevant to their, you know, graphic design course. I think that even if it's just an elective article, it can really help people. Not only deal with their own emotions about climate, but also see why, what they're doing. Then try to integrate climate into their work is so important and beneficial for not only themselves, but for their communities and the environment overall.[00:41:34] Eric: You mentioned syllabus. And so that's a great segue into my last question for you. And that is since you are a designer, um, and a climate scientist, I'm wondering if you were asked to teach a design class or project could be anything, um, about this issue, um, could be big, don't worry about funding or, or anything like that.Uh, what kind of, what, what would that be? How would you, how would you, uh, kind of meet all of your passions into, uh, this class or project? Okay.[00:42:12] Katharine: I would probably teach a design thinking class that's related to climate change. Um, I think design thinking has been really helpful in my personal experience to kind of figure out how to tackle problems and to be a creative problem solver. Um, and we touched a little bit on it in grad school, but I feel like it should almost be its own course.Uh, probably, definitely be its own course. Um, using design thinking. Um, you know, which is just essentially an approach to building solutions with, and for communities closest to the climate crisis is something that seems to be a really easy way to integrate climate and design. Um, you know, we're not trying to develop huge campaigns, um, which also could be a really fun project to work on, but it's more of the philosophy behind.What you're doing and how to get from point a to point B. Um, you know, you're scared, your client's scared, but, um, how do we overcome that and facilitate something that is not only aesthetically pleasing, but, um, not harmful. Right.I think something that bothers me a lot about creatives is that there are a lot of creatives who are, you know, needing to work for companies that they don't align with, uh, emotionally or practically.And it's no surprise that, you know, there's a lot of design and PR and advertising agencies that are really intertwined with the biggest contributor to climate change. And I think that that's something that we really need to. Start talking about more and there are really great organizations, but do talk about it, including climate designers.But I think putting a lot of pressure on those companies and for university, it's not funneling their students to those companies necessarily is, is important, but it's also. Not feasible sometimes economically we need jobs. Um, and sometimes those jobs are working at places that you don't ethically align with.And I think sometimes doing those jobs in those. Spaces is really important because I do think that a lot of change organizationally comes from within. Um, so if you have a lot of employees that feel passionately about, you know, cutting ties with fossil fuel advertising, um, it's hard to ignore that. And it's really important that creatives don't cause more destruction than good.Um,[00:44:54] Eric: I agree. Do you think we need, um, required design ethics courses?[00:45:00] Katharine: Always[00:45:01] Eric: Yeah. Cause I agree. We, we have,[00:45:04] Katharine: yeah.[00:45:05] Eric: we have a required one, so we're a little bit[00:45:08] Katharine: It's definitely important. And even if you're not a designer, it's important to understand the ethics of things. Um, I've been in a lot of classes at undergrad, even in grad school where, you know, there's a lot of climate solutions being talked about. Without a full understanding of the ethical implications that come along with them.Um, I can think of, you know, like geoengineering, which is something that's really accepted in society. Um, as a solution, you know, I would say most people who study ethics would say, you know, we need to really step back and focus on this and really sketch out the implications that will come if we do something like this.So, I think you can kind of take that. Into the design world as well, right? Like if you're doing a project with a client and they're greenwashing, or they're not doing something that is beneficial to society, um, kind of taking a step back and saying, okay, like, what are the ethics of me working on this project?What are the ethics of this project? And I think being more selective with, um, what projects you take or what you're even learning. Is really important, not only to maintain your integrity, but to also give a better future for the design field, right. You. don't want to be attached to, or stuck to, uh, organization or, um, a partnership that. May not be there sustainably for a while. So, it's good to set yourself up and say, Okay. we're working ethically. We're making decisions earlier. We can go to sleep at night and feel fine. Um, I think that's really something that a lot of creatives struggle with and it's not their fault necessarily. It's just more of something that needs to be taught when students are younger, Um,before they start becoming professionals for them to really. You know, walk the walk and talk the talk, um, rather than graduate and say, oh, like, these are my only options and I have to work for it, these six organizations. So, I think, uh, yeah, and also encouraging students to do things independently and creatively. Um, you know, even if they have to have a job that they don't agree with, or even if they're in a class that, you know, doesn't support the ethics, like doing that self-learning and designing things that you want to do.And really fueling your creativity is so important to not only staying sane in the climate crisis, but also to feel useful and not so helpless.[00:47:45] Eric: okay. Well, thank you for your advice. This has been, um, a wonderful time talking with you and I'm taking notes because put a lot of ideas for my fall classes and classes going forward.[00:47:59] Katharine: yeah, keep me updated.[00:48:01] Eric: yeah, well, I think that, um, you definitely, um, um, went to one of the top of my list here to people to come Skype into my class or zoom, whatever the whatever preferred method you would like to do.Um, and I also really would like to say that I appreciate your idea for a class. Um, I usually see design thinking classes about like, Entrepreneurship. And they use that process about like the next great widget. And, but I also see some about social issues too. Right. And, but I liked that semester long idea of let's just use this powerful design process that we have and put it to use over the biggest problem we're facing right now as a society.[00:48:48] Katharine: Yeah, definitely.[00:48:49] Eric: I love that idea. And I'm going to, I'm going to tell a lot of people about it and hopefully, hopefully they, uh, they invite you into LPG that helps them do that. But[00:49:00] Katharine: That'd be great. yeah.I think teaching students is, is really not only emotionally fulfilling and it's something that I've got the privilege of doing a few times now, but it also really helps you grow as well. Um, I think it's really important to, yeah. Always be learning from people younger than you and older than you.And making sure that you're setting up a generation for not only success, but to really be, um, meaningful with whatever they choose to do.[00:49:32] Eric: Yeah. It's like, uh, I think it's Antwan, Joe bear, he said to teach is to learn twice. Right. And[00:49:38] Katharine: Exactly.[00:49:40] Eric: I learned so much every time. My own faults. I learned things about the students, and I learned things that they teach me out in the world. So, you got to keep an open mind when you're teaching for sure.[00:49:53] Katharine: Definitely.[00:49:54] Eric: Well, thank you, Catherine. It's been a wonderful time sitting down with you and, uh, I really wish you the best of luck and, uh, we will definitely be in touch and thanks for, for promoting the climate designers’ group, because we're really trying to do what you're saying, and we should be doing so.[00:50:11] Katharine: Absolutely. Thank you. for having me.[00:50:13] Eric: Thank you.

Episode 3 – Lisa Zimmermann Lisa Zimmermann joins Eric to share her research and teaching tips in sustainable design from her day job as Lecturer at Griffith College in Dublin, Ireland. She laments how much we still don't teach in design school – from where paper comes from to the life cycle of the products we make, and how changes in our design curriculums don't come fast enough to match the quickly changing times. Listen to this episode on: Spotify, Apple, Google and other places you get your podcasts About our guestLisa Zimmermann is a German-Irish design researcher and educator specializing in "climifying" the profession of Communication Design.While her passion for advertising, copywriting and design persists until today, she realized early on that she couldn't work for traditional ad agencies for moral reservations towards working for clients she doesn't consider ethically sound.Her initial research into Sustainable Graphic Design Practice in Ireland, undergone during an M.A. in Design Practice led her to specialize in this niche area of Graphic/Communication Design. According to her findings, Sustainable Graphic Design can only be achieved through close collaboration of the design, print, paper technology, and IT sectors, and she made an effort to work in all four of them, to gain a deeper understanding of their point of view and pain points. An M.Sc. in Environmental Sciences at Trinity College Dublin led her to undergo research in environmentally friendly paper sizing options – paper sizing is the process of coating paper with starch and chemical ingredients to make it possible to print on it.Lisa currently lectures a broad range of students in the Design faculty of Griffith College in Dublin, Ireland in the areas of web design, typography, communication design, and digital tools/software skills. But rather than just integrating sustainability principles in the existing modules she teaches, she is also developing a "Certificate in Sustainable Communication Design" program aimed at professionals.Lisa is passionate about her dog Milo, gardening, learning, cold-water-swimming, and her new podcast "Conscious Communication Design" (available on iTunes, Spotify, etc). She also hosts workshops on Digital Environmentalism and wants to expand her network, so please get in touch!On the weblisazimmermann.comMusic in this episodeThe musical guest is Kurt Bielema performing "Passing Phase".Theme music by Casual Motive   Climate Design AssignmentsAt the end of each episode, we ask our guests what their ideal climate design project would be. They have four weeks with a class full of design students. We translated their response into a project brief that you can use for your class. Get Assignments   Follow Climify on IG   « Back to episodes   Episode TranscriptEric: On this episode of Climify. I'm joined by Lisa Zimmerman. Lisa Zimmerman is a German, Irish design researcher and educator specializing in clarifying the profession of the communication designer. She currently lectures abroad at a broad range of students in the design faculty at Griffin college in Dublin, Ireland.She specializes in the areas of web design, typography, communication, design, and digital tools and software. But rather than just integrating sustainability principles into the existing modules, she teaches, she's developing a certificate and sustainable communication design program aimed at. Professionals.You can also find Lisa as host of the conscious communication design podcast, which is available on all regular podcast platforms. You can also learn more about Lisa on her website. Lisa zimmerman.com. That's lisazimmermann.com And on Twitter and Instagram @CCDByLisa.[00:02:45] Eric: Glad to have you here. Lisa, we're excited that you, you're in Ireland and we're excited that you, despite the time zone difference, found the time in the day, to talk with us here on Climify, so I just wanted to start things off by, letting everyone know who you are and getting the basics, what you do and, where do you live?[00:03:15] Lisa: Thanks, Eric. And thanks for having me. Um, I think, um, if I were to describe what I do around, I, I usually say I'm a design researcher and also educator. Um, so my background is in communication. Yeah. And I specialize in sustainable graphic and web design, which I kind of call a conscious communication design for myself.But that's true too, like terminology mostly.[00:03:43] Eric: Trademark that, right?[00:03:44] Lisa: Yeah. Well, see, it's mostly due to sustainability having that like ambiguity, um, with, you know, often being interpreted as like a business term. And then I don't really like the term graphic design either because hardly anyone really works as just a graphic designer anymore. It's kind of like it's the, you know? The old term for a profession that doesn't really exist anymore.Like nowadays you're not just a graphic designer. You are also. You know, UX or web designer or whatnot, like it's, that's why I prefer communication design as a term. But then in the end, when it comes to sustainable graphic design, this is kind of like a coined term that we can find online when we're looking for, you know, what, the thing that we do, like you and I.So that's kind of why I need that term. And um, whenever I write or publish something online, I would always use, you know, sustainable graphic design, but I'm kind of trying to add web design to that as well. So sustainable web design, and it's kind of like, uh, another niche area, but there's more and more written about it as well.And that's fine. It's, it's very important for us as well. Um, to consider the website of things because most graphic or communication designers are doing web-based products as well.[00:05:02] Eric: And there's probably a lot of people. And I was in this category when I first was doing more UI /UX work, where I felt a lot better when I was doing it because I wasn't making these things that then, you know, we're headed probably to the landfill, but there's a lot more environmental impact with things that you make that are hosted on it.[00:05:23] Lisa: Exactly, exactly. And we need to consider their impact as well. Um, there's something I heard recently is if you have a very, if you have very little impact or the product that you're producing or designing has very little impact, it impacts almost gets like, uh, accelerated by, um, you know it but let's say an email, for example, it's very low in, uh, in, in file size.It's, what's, it's a couple of kilobytes. So, it is seemingly unimportant. If you think about, you know, storing an email, sending an email, keeping it in your inbox, not deleting it. Um, but then of course this adds up and because we're not considering it as much because it's such a little impact. Um, but that's why emails are dangerous.Really.[00:06:13] Eric: How many millions, billions of people have are doing that? Right? It's just[00:06:17] Lisa: Yeah.[00:06:18] Eric: not to leave them in an[00:06:19] Lisa: And especially this year, I find with everything that we do online or the, like, for example, my lectures are being recorded online, whether I'm doing them in person or not, they have to be like recorded in a stored in a cloud. But I just kept thinking, God, it's like hundreds of hours of me talking in an online cloud.And I haven't been warned by the system so far that any of those recordings have been deleted. So that must be. Hundreds of gigabytes at this stage of my online recordings and it's not just me. So yeah, it does make you, you know,[00:06:53] Eric: Now what's the climate footprint, all the zoom classes we've been teaching?[00:06:57] Lisa: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a tremendous amount of data that needs to be stored.[00:07:04] Eric: So, I'm wondering then, you know, you, most folks that I've met that are doing what we're doing, and social and environmental justice in the design world, or even outside of the design world has had some sort of like an epiphany or something happened to them that caused them to get involved. So, I'm interested in how you got involved in sustainable design and sustainable design education.[00:07:29] Lisa: Yeah, I love that question. And I'm sure you get some really interesting responses from other people there as well because it's something that is in the end, quite personal. I think whoever, uh, focuses on, uh, sustainability, uh, probably does it out of, you know, uh, yeah.For, for personal reasons, mostly, uh, for most people I'd say, um, I think I've always been very good at questioning everything myself. Yeah.Even when I was a kid questioning and not necessarily answering, but questioning was very good at that. Um, but myself, my own morals and beliefs, uh, but also my surroundings. So, um, I became vegetarian, I was 10 years old, for example, and then, uh, um, later on vegan then, but I think this kind of questioning nature has always been on my mind.Um, I think the aha kind of moment must have been at the end of my undergrad studies. In communication design, when I did my first internship, I did the internship as a copywriter actually, and then a pretty standard ad agency type setup and, uh, realized in just the three months internship.I mean, it had kind of dawned on me before that I might have actual issues working for certain clients, but this is where I realized, okay I can't. I can't actually do this job that I was made to do really. Like I dreamed all my life to be a graphic designer. It was like my big passion to design and to advertise as well, a lot of advertising as a thing itself, uh, communicating ideas and solving problems.That's my greatest passion, but I realized, yeah.[00:09:25] Eric: Yeah.[00:09:26] Lisa: I can't work for most clients really because, uh, I wouldn't agree with what they produce or how they produce it. And even in this three-month internship, half of the projects that I had to do, I struggled myself with, um, even doing those. So basically, I was at the end of my, uh, my undergrad, my education, and, uh, I realized I can't actually execute this job that I was dreaming to do, you know?[00:09:51] Eric: Lost at that point,[00:09:53] Lisa: Sorry.[00:09:54] Eric: I felt really lost at that point too.[00:09:56] Lisa: Yeah. Did you have the same kind of experience?[00:09:59] Eric: Uh, I mean, yeah, I would say so. I, I did work, um, in a number of different places where I just was like, yeah, like you. Uh, I just had a lot of ethical concerns about what was going on with what I was making. And I did work in some advertising for a while, and then it was completely inappropriate stuff and, and it wasn't even environmentally related.It was just, you know, um, you know, body image type and, you know, let's, let's Photoshop this and get rid of that. And it's just, you know, I just had some issues. All that stuff. So[00:10:41] Lisa: Yeah. I see you probably have the same experience though. In my education anyways, I don't remember having talked about that in classes, you know, like we actually had, we had a module which was very progressive, really. Um, it was called green design. Great lectures. We talked about kind of, it was kind of just touching though on, on the surface of, um, it wasn’t creating more like, he was introducing us to projects where you use sustainable biodegradable packaging or something like that. Um, in the end, I still think like it was progressive and it was great. Loved it, but it was very much just touching on the surface. I don't remember in any time during my education, having really had, you know, like debates about what should, what should we be doing as designers and what should we maybe refuse to do as well?Should we question? And I think I, uh, kind of, I tried to introduce that at any point when I think my students should be questioning something, I kind of like encourage them to. Um, so when I do like, uh, what are some of my modules are, um, I'm teaching Photoshop skills too. Not just communication designers, but to fashion and interior designers as well.So, they're like in the first year, and they're getting an intro to Photoshop, illustrator, and design from me. And whenever I do a class on like photo retouching, the fashion designers are obviously, oh my God, this is amazing. So cool. I can, you know, liquefy filter, and squeeze, and like, you know, those cheeks and make people skinny and eh, but yeah.I, I tried to like, you know, introduce the thought off, eh, having them decide what is ethical to do with a person's image, you know, um, very, very interesting to have them.I mean, I don't really have the room to really have a proper conversation about it, but I find that through practice, I can still encourage them to make up their own mind of what's. right and what's wrong.[00:12:46] Eric: So, you were out after school in an internship for three months in advertising at your dream job and realized it was not what you thought it was, and you were very, um, shaken by it. What did you do after that then? Like how did you get into where you are now teaching? Like, I was wandering back to school at some point, but where did you say I need to get involved in, you know, environmental or social justice issues?[00:13:20] Lisa: Yeah. Um, I had decided after my undergrad study is thank you to, to do a master's, um, and that's when I moved to move back to Ireland really as well, I'm originally from Germany. So, I did my undergrads in, uh, Berlin and then, uh, moved on to do a master's in design practice. Um, so very general, really.And I hadn't really thought about, you know, what I was going to do in that masters yet. Um, but moving to Ireland then, um, it wasn't very loosely defined, masters. I started and they weren't like giving us too many, like directions. We were very open and like, what were we going to like to write about? And I'm focused on sustainable graphic design and figured for myself because I knew that.The agency landscape in Germany, roughly from studying and internships and blah, blah, blah. Um, but it didn't really know the landscape in Ireland yet. So, I figured this is going to give me a good opportunity to get to know agencies, uh, potential employers, but also what sustainable graphic design is like in Ireland.So that's what I wrote my first thesis on as called sustainable graphic design in practice. Um, blah, blah, blah. But I was like looking at the overall landscape. So, I interviewed, uh, Irish graphic designers or people who like working in that field on their views. I kind of like tapped onto, um, into, uh, their beliefs in their practices really and realized it's just, it's not really a thing yet.Um, that's that was 2015. So, we have a little bit more going on now, but it's not that much. And definitely, it's not reached education. Yes. So, we don't have any modules or courses in that area. Yes. Um, it is. But, um, even after that thesis then, um, I had, you know, discovered it, this niche area for myself and I figured, okay, cool.So, this is, this is what I'm about. This is what I researched, and I know more about, you know, the practice side of things, but I didn't know what to Do I didn't really want to work freelance. I didn't really want to work for an agency. So, I've been like puttering around. Yeah. And I didn't feel confident enough.I'm like one of those typical cases of, um, people have like a great idea, but don't feel confident enough to actually go for it.[00:15:57] Eric: Yeah.[00:15:58] Lisa: I did another master’s then in environmental sciences, um,[00:16:02] Eric: you have two masters’ now?[00:16:04] Lisa: I'm doing my third one right now actually.[00:16:07] Eric: You should feel very confident than with all those master's degrees[00:16:10] Lisa: it took, it took me the three years to actually start going. I know it's ridiculous.[00:16:16] Eric: no, it's not. I feel that way. I feel the same way about a lot of stuff that I do. And once you put it out there, you automatically say, oh shoot, why did I do…[00:16:31] Lisa: I just wish for other people that they can, you know, kick-started a bit earlier when they have a great idea, because I wasn't ready for it. I always thought, oh, I don't know where the Irish market well enough. I haven't really worked as a graphic designer much except for freelance work. So, it didn't really know the, you know, the agency life.And I still don't really. And that's why I didn't feel connected. Enough to engage with designers to say, hey, this is, you know, what we should be doing, because I was felt like, well, I'm not from this country and I'm not, uh, you know, I'm not actually like working as a graphic designer either. So, who am I to tell you what to do?Like, you know, um, but I have to. Just finally overcome this. So yeah, then the masters. Yeah.And environmental sciences. I did some research on paper, which is really fascinating. Um, so I looked at, um, paper sizing recipes. So, paper sizing is the, uh, method of. Uh, treating pulp or like paper.And so, to make it printable, there are chemicals involved in that. And, uh, I looked at those and thought that was fascinating, which also made me realize though, you know, one of the big issues is a lack of collaboration between industries. Do you know how, um, I think in interior design, fashion design, sustainability is Yeah, or in other areas of design really is sustainability is ingrained in the whole process like certifications and labels and stuff like that? We don't really have that for graphical communication design. Not yet. No, not yet. Not really. Um, and I find it's also because. Been this eternal miscommunication between designers and printers, for example, who has always like, not like each other.And don't really like to talk about stuff, but, um, you know, talking about print processes and, and, uh, uh, how to set up documents properly to avoid like, uh, to avoid paper waste, um,[00:18:42] Eric: these are the little fundamentals, you know, the overlooked things that you don't learn in design school. I had to…[00:18:50] Lisa: Right. Yeah.[00:18:51] Eric: …get, I did get yelled at, by a printer. And in my, one of my first jobs, you know, sent over a Pantone color, and didn't tell him about it. And, uh, you know, that caused a huge accident.[00:19:04] Lisa: Oh,[00:19:05] Eric: I didn't learn any of that stuff in school, but…[00:19:08] Lisa: …printers always hate us and I have full understanding for it because no one teaches you properly in, in, um, how to set up your documents.[00:19:20] Eric: there's so much to teach. That's one of the things[00:19:22] Lisa: Yeah, but it also has to be like a, it has to be a constant learning curve as well.[00:19:28] Eric: Oh, yeah.[00:19:29] Lisa: …we have to just collaborate better. And then the same goes with paper technology.I find that's the printers usually don't know anything about the paper that they're using. Um, and what's involved in the process, or when is my paper? Like how much, can I print on it and do with it until it becomes, not recyclable anymore? Like that's stuff that, you know.We still have to learn about and it[00:19:53] Eric: Oh, yeah. And I work with paper too. And I ask students, you know, where does your paper come from? And they have no… they don’t know that much, but…[00:20:03] Lisa: Yeah.[00:20:04] Eric: …does it come from? And, uh, and especially in North America, it's a couple of places and it might be the same in Ireland. Where does all the paper come from?And that's a good question.[00:20:15] Lisa: Yeah, yeah. That is a good question. Uh, well, all our paper really comes from abroad. Um, I don't think, I didn't find any paper manufacturing in Ireland, uh, in the past research, but yeah, that is a good point. And that's what is so interesting in Ireland as well that, um, you know, we are a small island, eh, obviously everything has to be imported, so.[00:20:36] Eric: right?[00:20:36] Lisa: When you're looking at, you know, using sustainable graphic design books, resources, most of them are written in, uh, in the States. Some may be in Europe, but then half of that, isn't usable for OCR and RN because general, you kind of have to consider the whole life cycle of the whole, of the product and if I'm using recycled paper, that comes from further than an FSC certified paper. That's from closer, you know, comes from DOK. And now with Brexit, it's all like a total messed up in many ways, but yeah, because we don't, yeah. we have to figure out where our stuff comes from. But…[00:21:19] Eric: …another podcast right there. Right?[00:21:21] Lisa: Um, yeah, I kind of was wondering about this stuff when thinking of, uh, you know, choosing sustainable printers, uh, which is often like, you know, mentioned as one go-to kind of method for systemic graphic design, you know, pick your one good printer eco-friendly printer that prints with soy inks and, um, use recycled papers or certified papers.And I couldn't find any. So, what do, what do I, what we have, I found one now, but, um, I still wonder what do I even recommend? You know, if I do a talk over, have a conversation with either students or designers do say, um, she was a sustainable printer, but then that would be in the UK. So, you would have to get that shipped over here.[00:22:10] Eric: Right.[00:22:11] Lisa: be very sustainable or do you talk to your local printer and see what you can do with them? And it might be not soy-based inks, but at least you can work with, you know, the process of the papers. Yeah. I don't know. This is all, yeah. It's very difficult to make those decisions.[00:22:29] Eric: Yeah. Yeah. And you've mentioned, sustainable graphic design, many times or sustainable design. And I'm curious, you know, since you have to work on your third, master's now, like how do you define it? And, and, um, are we getting close to it yet?[00:22:44] Lisa: Great question. Yeah. Um, I define it for myself, sustainable design in general, as I'm looking at the whole life cycle of a product or service of anything that we produce and looking at each individual step and trying to optimize it. So, each individual step within their life cycle. How can we optimize it, how can, we reduce the environmental footprint of everything that's involved?So that's kind of why we can't ever reach, you know, sustainability. I mean, you know, it's always about the reduction of the impact, cause we're always going to have an impact. So even if I, even if I managed to produce something that is, uh, not being down cycle, but, you know, doesn't lose in value when it's being, when it's staying in the cycle, basically, even then I'm using resources and we're talking a lot about carbon neutrality and neutral.What is that word?Being, being carbon neutral, being carbon neutral, which for a lot of companies means offsetting. Do you know? Does that actually mean being neutral? Not really.[00:24:01] Eric: Not really. No[00:24:02] Lisa: to me, it's like, it's like, uh, I'm still sitting. And then I go to confession and, you know, to say it in traditional Irish Catholic[00:24:11] Eric: Confession.[00:24:12] Lisa: right.It's like, yeah, so you, so you sin, then you confess and then you're forgiven and Okay.So that's kind of what I don't know to me, that's what, um, offsetting means in the end. I mean, of course, it's kind of, it's better than not doing anything, but is that solving the issue? So, we're always having an impact, um, but we need to work on reducing that.So, we can't ever have the perfect sustainable product, whether that's a service or, you know, in communication design, it would be like a web or print product most of the time. Um, or, um, any tool of communication, really.[00:24:51] Eric: Lisa, let's take a quick break for some commercial messages.[00:27:20] Eric: I wonder that you know that because I know when I was involved with finding out about sustainable design and maybe you as well, I looked at it as like, okay, we need to do this. This makes sense. And we need to minimize our impact. And now I'm a design educator. I'm older and you are too. And there's this thing called the climate crisis.And that for me, really jumpstarted the. You're like, I need to do more. Right. You know, uh, there's a, there's a clock that's ticking. And so, I'm wondering for you, like you're a design educator, you're a designer. What do you think designers and design educators can do best to help fight, uh, the climate crisis draws down those emissions?[00:28:19] Lisa: Um, I think every single person on the planet has, you know, has to be aware of their responsibilities, but. A designer graphic designer specifically should be aware of. There is because we have a lot of influence. Like our job is literally to influence consumer behavior that is kind of, you know, what we do.And so, we need to be really aware of that responsibility and, uh, whatever we do with that responsibility. So, we have to ask ourselves, you know, which w what is it. Ethical and what isn't and when it comes to what isn't, you know, what can I do about it? Um, I think that's, uh, that's kind of the main thing.Um, as an educator, I'm trying to have my students be aware of that, of the influence that they're having, that there, the impact that their job is going have. So that they can build their own ethical framework. Hopefully, that's kind of, I think the ultimate goal is that students learn to decide for themselves what's right.And what's wrong. And I do have a bit of hope there that, um, I find the new Generation Z that's coming up there, you know, the Friday for future guys. They're, they're amazing. And that they're. Raising their voices about stuff that we've all been, you know, screwing up for them. Um, and I think I have high hopes that they are going to be a generation that enters the workforce saying I'm not going to do that.You know, like as in, you're giving me a task and I'm not agreeing with it. And I'm just saying, no, I think so far, we've all been, I think, eh, with. Generation Y is kind of like started to question this a little bit, you know, and like started wanting to have like a different work-life balance and questioning work hours and work ethics.But I'm hoping that with, you know, that we're getting to a stage where we're all questioning, whether what we do for a living. It's like the right thing to do and not just what we do for a living as a job itself, we all need to do our jobs like, but, um, in practice, I think that means also saying no to a client or educating them.And that's kind of part of sustainable design. I think that, uh, If a client is completely disagreeing in principle with my beliefs, I might be better off seeing no one. I'm not going to work with them. I'd rather focus on someone else. And I know that's a very bold statement. Um, I used to be very wary of, of seeing this, but thankfully there's more, uh, sustainable designers popping up and they're, they're saying the same thing that we need to, you know, um, make mixed selections as well with who we work with.Um, and even if we don't want to do that, where, you know, we see potential with the client in, in maybe shaping the way we can communicate for and with them that maybe we can, you know, like I don't have to, she was, if I work as a designer in an agency, I don't necessarily have to say, okay.I'm only working with, you know, XYZ clients now, which would be very limited.But we maybe with some, I could say, okay.do you know the idea for this ad campaign is not really, you know, what we can, what we should be doing, or if you have any concerns, we raise them and just say, you know, it's, not the right thing to do? So, steering them into the better correct direction of that.[00:32:13] Eric: Yeah, you're going to have to know a lot before you get there. Right?[00:32:17] Lisa: Yes.[00:32:18] Eric: that's our job as educators, right. To help them, our students, get there. How do you, how do you help your students?  I think there's kind of a two-part question for me cause, uh, I think there's, there's a couple of components here.I think the first part is like, how do you get your students to that information? Right. As an educator, I know you said there's not a class in Ireland about this, but you can kind of do that in other ways. Um, and too, I think, and a lot of us as educators I've experienced, you know, Gen-Z and all the stuff that they're going through. How do you get them from a mental health perspective to not just be apathetic and sit back and you know, not do anything, you know? So that's why I think it's a two-part question, get them the information and how do you, how do you handle like the mental health side of it?[00:33:16] Lisa: yeah. that's, that's a good one. It is tough. Um, I've been doing like a heavy load kind of project with, my very small communication design class last year. And had some of them really struggle with, like, they were able to decide themselves in the project, which, uh, the ethical dilemma they wanted to tackle basically.Um, so they chose. Well, all the topics were very, um, heavy from like mental health too, um, uh, voter suppression and to violence against women. So, they all had like very like heavy topics and some of them got like personally yeah, very personally involved. And you could see them like getting worst stage every week, you know, it was, uh, yeah.Difficult.[00:34:09] Eric: yeah.[00:34:10] Lisa: Yeah. It is a very important question. That's true. Um, I think so going back to the first part of your question when you're giving them the information, um, it's definitely something that I'm like in, uh, there's two sides to it. I think, uh, you can like all of us that are involved, in this trying to make our profession more sustainable.You know, uh, reducing our environmental footprint or raising awareness, we can create communication ourselves. Um, we create, you know, work on the curriculum, and include it that way. So, I'm working on my own course right now; a certificate course in sustainable graphic and web design that I'm looking to propose to colleges, uh, that would be aimed at professionals though, as an add on, uh, uh, after, you know, either having worked in the industry already or directly after their undergrads.And, um, so, you know, designing an online course could be, could be a way to go, but also, you know, we can, we can use are, um, besides our regular teaching, any other means of communication, it seemed the most sustainable graphic design courses I've seen popup were like privately organized. So, there is, um, A little Fox design in Canada.There's a Domestica course. There's a LinkedIn course in design. And then I think there's one other Australian one. So, they're all like, uh, privately organized to not through an Institute of higher education institution.[00:35:50] Eric: with that.[00:35:51] Lisa: Like to know, but, um, it's, it's still like, it's, it's a trend. Definitely. I think.And they might be easier to clean Sue me, you know, most of those are like overall it's like video footage of like two to three hours. Um, so maybe that's, you know, easier, more palatable to people, easier to digest. Um, you don't have to commit to like a whole, you know, whole certificate courses.[00:36:16] Eric: Yeah. Well, I also think it's back to what you were saying a little earlier is that you have to teach these students so many things on an undergrad level with printers and, um, basic fundamentals and then advanced techniques are that you run out of time. Right? And I see a lot of sustainable design courses at the grad level more. So, and maybe that's one of the reasons why are not enough people, not enough people can teach it.[00:36:44] Lisa: True. Yes. There are not enough people that can teach it. That's for sure. Um, and it takes a long time to change. The curriculum often existed in existing chorus and undergrad courses, isn't it?[00:36:58] Eric: A lot of red tape. I, I went through this, and it took like, I, I can't even tell you how many years, like three years.[00:37:06] Lisa: Oh, wow. Amazing. What you managed to change the curriculum of your work.[00:37:12] Eric: Yeah. Yeah.[00:37:13] Lisa: and integrate sustainability.[00:37:14] Eric: All the people who taught there to do it.[00:37:17] Lisa: Amazing. That's fantastic.[00:37:19] Eric: a success story, but[00:37:20] Lisa: That is a huge accomplishment.[00:37:23] Eric: I don't hear enough of those success stories. That's the, that's the problem.[00:37:27] Lisa: Yeah.So, in the college where I currently teach, um, the communication design course, it's like a three-year course, so it's very new still.Um, so it's also for me is like a relatively new, like I'm in my third year of teaching now still wanting to be new to teaching, you know, where do I start? Like integrating those. But I have been asked to like, you know, eh, uh, look over existing modules and I can integrate stuff. So. And teaching the typography module, for example.So, integrating, um, concerns around accessibility and diversity, um, into the curriculum, wherever I can, I would, you know, drop those things in. So, when I got a chance to, uh, revise modules, you know, like giving my input there. And even if you can't as an educator, if you don't get the chance to modify that you can still in existing projects where you can write your brief specifically.So, they include, you know, something. Um, so if I have them do a product design or would use, you know, uh, specifically brands that already are in that area. Or making something more sustainable. Um, but I find it even more important because I noticed, I think, you know, the first year with my students, I did a lot of.They kind of figure it out very early on. That was kind of my direction. You know, I had to do like a recycling bin labeled project, for example, and they, sometimes it felt a bit like they're doing it for me or they're doing it just because, well, it's how I chose the brief. Um, but. I try to kind of sprinkle it in with regular briefs as well, and kind of make them question their own thoughts or medium as well.So, if we're seeing, I mean, good communication. Would generally be more sustainable and you know, like it does go hand in hand very often. Like, um, even if you advertise for your, uh, local takeaway, would they're printing out brochures and distributing them to thousands of, or hundreds of households, um, would that be the best means of communication, or would online ads be more successful, like always considering, you know, which medium would be the best platform so that we're not wasting resources and it doesn't, it's not really print versus web. It is an overall consideration of what's the best means of communication.[00:40:16] Eric: Yeah, for sure. I think your advice to educators, who don't have the sustainable design class, but to sprinkle it in, as you said is perfect. I experienced that when I first started teaching too. I called it… I wanted to give the students the soup, but I couldn't give them the soup. So, I had to put vegetables and all their little classes.So, they, they got, they got it[00:40:39] Lisa: It's a nice metaphor. Yeah.[00:40:42] Eric: Yeah. The few times that you are frustrated about the lack of classes, especially in Ireland, especially in your school. So, I'm giving you the opportunity here. Creating a dream design course. Maybe it's a project curriculum. However, you want to frame it on sustainable design on, you know, the planet and the climate crisis.What would you create? What would it be? And it could be as big as you know, don't worry about money. Don't worry about bureaucracy, but what, what would you, what would you want to create?[00:41:17] Lisa: Yeah, it's good. It's a difficult question.When you tried to prepare for this course, I've thought about it, you know? Especially because I am currently creating a course myself. So, it made me wonder, is this my dream course? I mean, it should be obvious, but it's, um, it's, it's also considerations of, you know, what's feasible and what makes sense.And I'm still. I still have to like, figure that out. Most, mostly, really is my, is my market even there, you know, so what I'm currently designing is a certificate course in sustainable graphic and web design. I'm envisioning a three-module certificate. Um, so we would have one module for general business practice.One based around printing and one based around, uh, web products, uh, or web design. Um, and this would be aimed at professionals. But of course, when we talk about, you know, changing the curriculum of, uh, for undergrad courses, that's really what it should be like they would, they ultimately, there shouldn't be a need for a certificate course, like the one I'm designing right now, because it should be part of all the undergrad courses already,[00:42:36] Eric: Yes.[00:42:38] Lisa: but we need to get there somehow.Like, there are only very, very few people in Ireland that I know that are, you know, even concern themselves with sustainable graphic design, um, very few people. So, we don't even, we wouldn't even have the educators for a course, really. Um, so we need to educate all of us, suppose, but it's, it's difficult.Isn't it? I don't know how you do it. Like, how do you talk if you, you, if you're in the street and you meet like your box standards, I do know, sounds awful now, but like a regular graphic designer? How, how do you tell them what you do or focus on without sounding demeaning or, you know, like they are doing something wrong.[00:43:28] Eric: Oh gosh. So, you're flipping the table there. Okay.[00:43:30] Lisa: Sorry,[00:43:31] Eric: Yeah, no, it's fine.[00:43:32] Lisa: I don't have, see That's what I mean. I'm good at asking questions. Not so good at answering.[00:43:36] Eric: That's a great question. You know, I'm, I'm, um, I'm, I'm even terrible at explaining before I was doing this. Like what I did as a, as a designer, you know, I remember telling people like, I'm a designer. I do, you know, graphic design or I do digital work and they would always ask if I was a fashion designer or, you know, furniture.And so. When I've. So, when I give, so when I get into that point, you know, I'm talking to other graphic designers about it. I do feel like you said, I do feel like I'm talking down[00:44:11] Lisa: Hmm.[00:44:11] Eric: I don't, I don't like that feeling because it makes me, you know, and I'm sort of elevating what I do. You know? Like, why haven't you guys thought about this?Why are you still, and so the few times where I have been asked that question, um, let me think, um, Geez. I think, I think I was just sort of saying to them, like, um, I really consider, you know, the environmental and social impacts of the things that I make. It really is concerning to me. And I usually don't get many follow-up questions after that.So, I don't know if it would. Good or they just were like, I don't know what she means, and I don't really want to talk about it anymore. That's a really good question. I, how about, do you have a better answer than I hope you do because mine[00:45:03] Lisa: Um, not really, but I think that's, what's been holding me back the whole time in like getting out there and getting my knowledge out there. Um, is that. I didn't feel confident enough to stand there and teach people who are doing their job for God knows how long, longer than me anyways. Cause I didn't really practice it that much.Um, and telling them what to do that can't really be the answer. But I think, um, I'm getting there now because I realize it has to be a conversation that always has to remain a conversation and an iteration process anyways. So, I can only get more knowledgeable on how to approach them if like start talking to them and[00:45:47] Eric: Yeah.[00:45:48] Lisa: have to start.Doing workshops with people and maybe calling them workshops rather than talks or presentations. And so that it becomes clear that it's a, it's a two-way thing. You know, it's not me telling them what to do, but rather me questioning with them on what we can, how we can do a better.[00:46:06] Eric: Well, you do ask good questions. So that would be, yeah.[00:46:09] Lisa: Thank you. But I think that's, that's kind of, all I can recommend as well is like constantly asking ourselves.Like, is it right? What I'm doing or is there a better way of doing it? And that's all we can do. Really. There's never a good, perfect answer. A solution to anything.[00:46:27] Eric: I mean, I think the first two people I've interviewed on this podcast are climate scientists. The question to them was, you know, what can we do to stop our climate crisis?[00:46:42] Lisa: Hmm.[00:46:43] Eric: their number one answer was she got to talk about it. Both of them said this, you need to talk about it and then reflect upon it.Right? And so that's where that's the two-way dialogue you're talking about. It's not just you lecture like empty vessels and they, and they learn everything from you. It's, it's a back and forth.[00:47:03] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. That's very true.[00:47:05] Eric: We're coming up on time here. I wanted to give you a moment to since most of our audiences are design educators as a design educator, yourself, what kind of advice would you give to another design educator? Or just in general, if they're interested in this topic, how should they get started on it and how could they learn more so that.We can change this issue of all these, you know, non-sustainable design classes or it's just as a bedrock foundation of what we do in[00:47:38] Lisa: Yeah. Um, Hmm.[00:47:46] Eric: How do we change the world, Lisa, please give us.[00:47:49] Lisa: Yeah, let's start. So, number one. oh, okay.I think the most important thing is that, that we are aware of our responsibility as educators. Um, which is a big one and can be very frustrating to think about it because it's, it's a massive responsibility, but in the same way, making our students aware of the responsibility, the whole world, like, they're not Okay.So, I'm silly when I say that now, but it's not like they're not just learning a profession. It's more like you're going to be communicators and they need to decide on what they want to communicate, um, and figure out for themselves, you know, what's important to them and whatnot, what isn't. Yeah.So, I think, yeah, making them aware of their responsibility, that's the one thing, and that's what we can do.Like every single day in every class, you know, pointing out why something is important. That's part of teaching anyways. Um, but why. Why they should care as force about, uh, about certain issues and how it ties in with or a future job? Um, that's probably, that's, that's one thing. Yeah, And apart from that, whether my colleagues that are listening to this, um, are designing their own courses, which would be great, whether they’re integrating it into the existing curriculum by.Maybe focusing the next brief on something in that direction, or even phrasing the brief so that students have to ask themselves certain quests. That can be one thing. Uh, even if you work with existing briefs, you can focus your attention towards a questioning kind of, of, um, inquiry, which is, you know, part of problem-solving anyways.Um, but directing them, I suppose, into, uh, sustainable or environmental considerations and. Apart from that, we need to all kind of organize ourselves a bit better.I think the Climate Designer’s platform is, is a really good start and. I kind of hate that there aren't really enough people in Europe, uh, joined up there yet.So, if there are any Europeans listening to this, please join the chime and designers because that's, you know, that's what we need. Not necessarily this one platform, but it's. What we can, we can use social media, we can use whatever, but we need to connect all design educators. We need to connect, uh, and not just in the, in the standards kind of conference national level.Um, but internationally, uh, because we can learn from each other on how we can change how design has been taught. Like we're in a massive kind of a curveball right now on how design is changing. Um, especially communication design changing so much because there's more that's being asked of us of the professional of the job.Then a couple of decades ago, like it's, it's constantly evolving, and sustainability has to be part of it. So, we need to figure out how we can integrate it and maybe, maybe figure out how we can change the curriculum in general, a little bit quicker. I'm still very new to the education system, but it is a bit frustrating when you're coming from when you're used to. I didn't know, even working in corporations, you know, where policies can be changed quite quickly actually, but then you, then you enter the education sector and you're like, oh yes, this is the norm for the next four or five years. And then we can like, kind of talk about it, you know? And it's, it's, it's very frustrating.[00:51:57] Eric: I laugh but I’m crying inside when I hear it.[00:52:01] Lisa: Yeah. And I still have to like figure out how all of that works, but I would wish that you know, we would, we were doing more like, uh, even within my college where there would be like more round table discussions on how we can change things[00:52:21] Eric: Yeah.[00:52:21] Lisa: keep them up to date.[00:52:23] Eric: Yeah, I a hundred percent agree with you. We need that stronger community and the things that I learned about teaching sustainable design weren’t only not just my ideas. They were ones that I talked and learned with other people, you know like it's the way that we build it up. You know, it's[00:52:42] Lisa: Yeah.[00:52:43] Eric: not one person doing it all.[00:52:46] Lisa: Yeah.[00:52:46] Eric: a heroes game here where we all need to be individual heroes.[00:52:52] Lisa: Yeah. That's very true. Yeah.[00:52:55] Eric: Well, Lisa, thanks so much for[00:52:57] Lisa: Thank you, Eric. This was a great conversation.[00:53:01] Eric: It was, it felt like I could go on a little bit longer, but, uh, trying to keep it to 45 minutes, but, definitely, thank you so much. And, it was great having you.[00:53:11] Lisa: Thank you. Eric. It was fantastic to talk to you.

Episode 2 – Gerardo Celis Dr. Gerardo Celis, a plant ecologist, joins Eric to share his research and consequent predictions on permafrost thaw in the Arctic, its effect on global warming, and why designers are amazing and needed collaborators to help better tell engaging stories that detail the day in the life of climate scientists and visualize the data from their work. Listen to this episode on: Spotify, Apple, Google and other places you get your podcasts About our guestGerardo Celis is an ecologist with a broad interest in terrestrial ecosystem processes, in particular how anthropogenic impacts influence these processes. He is currently working on understanding the impacts of rising Arctic temperatures on the C balance of Arctic ecosystems. He has also studied the role of exotic invasive species in the trajectory of ecosystem recovery after disturbances and identifying management methods to enhance and/or speed up ecosystem recovery.On the webwww.gerardocelis.comwww.researchgate.netMusic in this episodeThe musical guest is Joseph Shipp performing "Where are You".Theme music by Casual Motive   Climate Design AssignmentsAt the end of each episode, we ask our guests what their ideal climate design project would be. They have four weeks with a class full of design students. We translated their response into a project brief that you can use for your class. Get Assignments   Follow Climify on IG   « Back to episodes   Episode TranscriptEric: [00:01:02] Welcome to Climify I'm Eric Benson, and I'll be your host this season as we talk to climate experts from all over the world. To help us design educators fight the climate crisis in our classrooms. And yes, I'm also a design educator. I've been teaching for 15 years here at the University of Illinois.  But even if you're not a design educator, listening to this show, there’s so much useful information jam packed in each. That you too can learn how to do your part to help reduce our greenhouse gas emissions.  In this second episode, I'm talking to climate scientists. Gerardo Celis. I met hereto through a colleague of mine and was instantly interested in his research in the Arctic circle. Gerardo is originally from Costa Rica. With a PhD in interdisciplinary ecology from the university of Florida in Gainesville, where he lives and teaches. His research currently is focused on understanding the impacts of rising Arctic temperatures. And the C balance of the Arctic ecosystems will learn about what all that means in this episode. You can find out more about gerardocelis.com. Gerardo it's, it’s wonderful to meet you. We're excited that you're here on Climify. So, to begin, let's start by just getting the basics who you are and what you do, and where are you? Gerardo: [00:02:48] thank you for having me here. I'm really delighted to be here and kind of share, and I guess my 5 cents to the story and my name is Gerardo and I currently live here in Florida, the sunshine state, but I'm originally from Costa Rica.I'm born and raised in Costa Rica. And then about 2004, I decided to kind of continue my studies and do my graduate studies here in the us right here at University of Florida and my research area has been plant ecology. I'm a plant ecologist and I've conducted research from the tropics all the way up to the Arctic and some of the topics that I've been kind of working on, have been looking at ecosystem restoration.So, looking at degraded ecosystems, what would be the best way to kind of bring them back to, to a kind of functional form. I've also been interested in looking at the introduction of non-native species into ecosystems. So, looking at plant invasions, and then more recently I've been kind of up in the Arctic was looking at and looking at the ecosystem up there in the Tundra and trying to figure out how climate change is going to impact the Tundra in the Arctic.And so, we're looking at carbon dynamics. So, the big question is, is the Tundra going to be a net sink or source of carbon? Kind of moving forward in these future scenarios of climate change. And then I guess more recently now I've kind of switched gears from being mostly a researcher to I'm now more of a lecturer.So, I am a hundred percent teaching. Yes. A hundred percent teaching in agronomy. So, they were looking for an Agroecologist. And so, kind of my background in plant ecology kind of fit in that, but as I moved more into kind of an applied science, then kind of the research I've been doing before. And so, I'm in the agronomy department here at the University of Florida, which I started in December of 2019.Eric: [00:05:18] So couple years ago. Gerardo: [00:05:19] Yeah. Eric: [00:05:21] What was it like? Being in the Arctic, since you're from Florida and Costa Rica, what's the temperature like? Gerardo: [00:05:28] So yeah, no, it was, first, I, I, I go only in the summer, so I definitely wasn't there for those really frigid months, but it, it definitely took some time getting used to, I didn't have obviously.The wear and kind of equipment and stuff too, to live in that kind of environment. But we had an experiment there where we were warming the Tundra with some snow fences. And it's kind of counter-intuitive that you would accumulate snow. Kind of warm the Tundra, but it actually works as an insulator for, and those really frigid temperatures in the air.And so, our idea was to use snow, to kind of warm it. And get the soil temperature to increase. We're able to increase it about a degree Celsius and then kind of see how much, what, what, what would be the dynamics if that soil was too warm and, and the Tundra is, uh, they have a lot of permafrost, which is technically, it's a solid.Remains frozen for at least two years. And, and so the question is, once you start warming it, what's going to happen with that soil and the carbon that's in that stuff, Eric: [00:06:47] what's going to happen yet based on all your experiments. Gerardo: [00:06:50] So sadly enough, we've eh, our experiment has been running for about 16 years and we've been measuring the carbon kind of bets being admitted and up.And in that whole period and the trend right now is that it's emitting carbon. So, it's going to, yeah, it's not good because it's all that organic matter that's in the soil is being decomposed and that's outpacing the amount of carbon that's being up taken by the plants that are currently there. And so…That's one of the big kind of questions is if we're in this trajectory, it's always, it's going to be kind of a positive feedback where it's going to look at carbon. That's being released in warm up the, uh, the climate as well, because it's releasing Eric: [00:07:42] a feedback loop. So, it's constantly…Gerardo: [00:07:48] you're increasing the carbon.Right? Oh, uh, climate change, which is the main gas is CO2 or carbon dioxide. Eric: [00:07:56] So you're, you're a diagnosing a lot of problems up there in the Arctic. You also locating solutions there as well, or Gerardo: [00:08:05] so, unfortunately not it's something that I get a lot. I'm kind of just a bearer of bad news. Yes. And, but I think, yeah, the definitely where we're collecting a lot of data, it's, it's a lot of unknowns there.There's kind of two big theories in the Arctic is that they call it the Arctic greening or the Arctic brown. So, we don't know. if over time, it's going to switch just because the vegetation is going to change and then it will be able to capture carbon. But right now, from what we've been experiencing, instead, it is changing another kind of important feature.There is that a lot of this soil has ice in the soil. And as that ice actually melts, you get a lot of slumping of this. And that creates another big dynamic of moisture and things. So, we're trying to figure that out as well. And methane then comes into a picture that can be in an important gas as well.Eric: [00:09:11] Yeah. And, and maybe we can educate some of our listeners. Methane is, uh, tell us about methane as a, as a greenhouse gas. Gerardo: [00:09:21] So methane is, also, it's about 43 times and higher capacity of retaining heat than carbon dioxide, but just by the mere volume of what's in the atmosphere and how much it's being exposed is a carbon dioxide tends to be the one we talk about the most, Eric: [00:09:42] rightGerardo: [00:09:43] but methane like, carbon dioxide are these gases that help capture the heat. That's aerated from the, from the Earth’s surface, then it gets captured and then kind of a reality back to the soil and to the earth. And so, but, but methane… Normally when, when microbes are decomposing organic matter, they're either, if there's a lot of oxygen, they tend to then produce CO2.But if there's lacking oxygen though, the way they kind of decomposers is the by-product the product and that they kind of produces methane. So, this math thing goes up into the atmosphere and it's doing this. Warming effect that the main difference is that the residents' time, how long it can be in the atmosphere without it, then decomposing is much shorter than CO2.So, it won't remain the lifespan of, of my thing in the atmosphere isn't as long. Eric: [00:10:45] So there's a silver lining potentially. Gerardo: [00:10:49] Yeah. And so, so depending. Yeah. And so that's where you hear, like cows become a big issue because they need a lot of methane. Yeah. Rice patties are also, so when you think of soils that are inundated, they tend to produce a lot of methane because they lack the oxygen. Eric: [00:11:08] We usually do get a lot of work with climate and.  Most people that I talk with that are, are into some sort of environmental justice work or social justice work, have some sort of backstory or some like big epiphany that happened to them. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got interested in, in what you do as, as a scientist?Gerardo: [00:11:33] Sure. Yeah, my mine wasn't really an epiphany, but more of kind of a gradual interest in moving through my career. But I would say probably my father was my main kind of mentor that the person that initiated this, because he's a, he's an economist of natural resources. Eric: [00:11:55] Interesting. Gerardo: [00:11:55] So he does kind of evaluations of supply and demand of natural resources and trying to figure out how we can have like a sustainable system where our, where we're using our resources in a convenient way.So, I kind of had that background and in exposure as I at a very young age, I didn't want to go into kind of the mathematical and economist route. So, I've been, I started exploring a little bit more and I found that biology kind of like biological sciences was the area that, that really influenced or that I, that I thought would be a good fit with what I wanted to study.Eric: [00:12:40] Was that in, was that in like, when you were really young or in college? Gerardo: [00:12:45] So that was when, when I was really young, I really wanted to kind of understand these. Big crisis is we're having right. Cause we would, you would see all the time that we had all these different crises environmental crisis. I think the ozone layer was really popular back then and the nineties and talking about the ozone.And so, I just wanted to see how I can contribute to fixing some of these problems. And so that was kind of really young. Eh, my, I lived in a. When I was around five or six, I lived with my father, and he got a job in a research station in Costa Rica called CATIE. It's an agronomic tropical research station in higher education.And so, they had research plots all over the place and I would spend all day up there and just looking at the different experiments they have.  coffee, you name it. They had all these different experiments. I didn't understand anything of what they're doing.  It's really interesting. They had a I think they had one of the largest coffee collections of germ plasm in the world. And so, they have all these different coffees from different parts of the world, and they have bananas. They had a collection of bananas. And I remember there was a banana that had seeds in its things like papaya seeds, and I didn't know why a banana would have seeds in them.And then now kind of after learning genetics and understanding, we, we, we have kind of modified those bananas to let they don't produce the seeds they're there, but they're just like little speckles. Eric: [00:14:27] So they're genetically modified most bananas. Gerardo: [00:14:29] So they’re, eh, bananas than, actual banana. Two sets of chromosomes like humans, right.We have 48 pairs of 46 pairs of chromosomes. And so, what happens is there is um, the bananas crossed with, uh, a kind of a mutant that has an extra chromosome and or is missing a chromosome. So, then they have three sets of chromosomes and in that. Kind of mutation or that extra chromosome and doesn't allow it to, to become reproductive, but it still produces the banana.And this is, uh, a technique they use a lot in, in kind of adding. Chromosome sets, eh, eh, to either increase fruit size, increase the leaf. And so, this is something normal. It's not that they're modifying the genetics. It's just that they're adding more pairs of chromosomes. And so, so the bananas, what they call the triploid, it has three sets of, uh, of those chromosomes.Eric: [00:15:40] I knew nothing about banana genetics until right now. Gerardo: [00:15:42] Yeah. So yeah, the banana is, is it in theory should have seeds and so that, because it's, uh, it has no seeds, it can't reproduce and through seeds. And so, there's a lot of issues that have come up through. And kind of other diseases that they because it literally, they use, they clone each banana and it's almost the same individual that you're just reproducing and it's not crossing with anything because it just can't cause it's not producing it.Eric: [00:16:14] And so your father was working with both coffee and bananas. So, his fields are his plots. Gerardo: [00:16:21] So yeah, who's in charge of kind of the whole research area. And, and so they've been working with cacao. They had a lot of different kind of research areas, but yeah, I was exposed to that. I kind of like the biological side of things.I wasn't sure if I'm wanting to work with animals or plants. And then when I went to kind of my undergrad. It was there where I, I guess it's just having those really good mentors and professors that kind of motivate you. And those were all kind of in the plant science and that's where I kind of just took my path and decided to, to work with educators, Eric: [00:17:01] helping to guide.Gerardo: [00:17:03] Yeah, it's just those that motivate you. They kind of click that light bulb and then you just get really motivated. And, and so that's kind of why I went towards the plan, but I really, before the starting year, the university, I wasn't sure from wanting to work with animals or plants. Eric: [00:17:22] Well, as our audience is mainly educators, they can relate to having to mentor and guide. People along the way. And I know probably as your teacher now, you’re kind of understanding. Gerardo: [00:17:35] yeah. That we're definitely going to impact somebody along the way. Eric: [00:17:39] Well, let's take a quick break here for some commercial messages. Eric: [00:20:07] I'm sure you get our next question a lot, which is about climate change and how everything is connected, what we do in our personal lives and work.And there are a lot of, a lot of issues we're facing well. Uh, what, what do you feel is the most important. That needs to be done just by like people like us, everyday people to fight or to help solve the climate crisis. Gerardo: [00:20:31] Sure. I mean, I don't think there is a silver bullet for. For everyone. I think there's really kind of three things that, that come to mind that people should be thinking about.One is to actually study and try and understand what the problem is. Right? What, what is the actual problem? We hear it a lot, right. Climate change. Okay. What is the cause? What, what, where's it going and just understand the problem. And then I guess the second step is to then think about your own personal reality, right?What are, what are some of the things that you do that can impact that, that problem that you've kind of learned about? Right. So, the main culprit. You hear it a lot is this carbon dioxide and emissions and the burning of fossil fuels. So that the question is okay, based on your reality and in your everyday life, what are some of the things that probably have a high fossil fuel demand that you can reduce?Eric: [00:21:36] Like driving? Gerardo: [00:21:37] Driving could be one. Your diet can be another one. Maybe reducing the amount of red meat, you eat. Another big culprit is air travel. So, I think more than anything, don't, don't think of it that you're going to have to just stop the life that you currently have and not do anything, but I think it's still kind of gradual steps of figuring out audit, audit yourself.Okay. This is everything that I do, and I'm willing to maybe modify it. A certain aspect of my life to kind of improve it or decide to, instead of buying a new car, I'm going to slap some solar panels on my house or certain something that, that, that, but I mean, and I think. It just takes the effort to understand yourself before you can kind of decide what it is.Right. And, and, and then I think the next most important thing is to understand that other people have different realities, right. That what could be a solution for yourself might not be a solution for someone else. Eric: [00:22:44] Great point. Gerardo: [00:22:44] Yeah, because I mean, what if you're not immediate or in your solution was to reduce, not eat meat, right.Well then is that person does not have to worry about it. And so, but also, it's the reality of income as well. Like I just talked about. Putting some solar panels on your house, but most people probably don't own a house. And why would they want to put solar panels on their house? So, I think it's also thinking about the reality of that, that other people have different needs in different aspects.Like maybe driving less, but if you, your job depends on you driving, I mean, you're not going to take it. Eric: [00:23:22] Yeah, no. Your third point is really important.  I'm a father and I have a partner and a daughter, and, you know, they're on the same page for the most part is me, but I think we're at different levels of like investment in things.Gerardo: [00:23:35] Yeah, but I think it goes back to that point right where that's maybe a lack of knowledge of what those, what the issue is and how it's connected. Because I mean, if you go to the supermarket, right. And you're like, okay, I'm going to go vegetarian then, which of all the vegetables and fruits are you going to eat?And then the question there is like, do I eat an apple that's coming from Chile versus a local apple. Right. And so. There's a lot of things that, that you can kind of fine tune and get into the details. But I think there are different decisions that you can make and at different levels of complexity, but, but it’s all kind of like a circle it's like going back.Okay. I'm not doing this. It's probably because you're not aware it's an issue or yeah. Eric: [00:24:22] Well, speaking of households one of the many reasons we wanted you to come on the podcast, you’re married to a design educator and this, this shows for design educators. And so, you'd bring in a really important, uh, set of overlapping insights to the discussion.So, I'd like to turn a little bit about, a little bit, a little bit more about how designers. Help do some of the things that you mentioned, as we're designed educators here interviewing you what role do you think we have in helping with the climate crisis? Gerardo: [00:25:00] I guess based on my personal window into and its graphic design, right?It's not the whole sweep of design, but yeah, graphic design. I think it’s; it's just coming up with innovative ways to communicate the crisis. Right. I think we as scientists have, uh, kind of a very narrow window of how things get communicated. And, and I think, eh, the, you as design educators have kind of the capacity of dealing with the communication part of this crisis.But, uh, but I also want one thing that I've noticed from kind of my, my, my wife's kind of window of, of that world is that. Graphic designers have a very kind of intrinsic unique characteristic that I've noticed is that you tend to work. Diverse groups of subjects, right? Like today you might be working with a museum that's working and needs, uh, kind of the communication and, and, and all the graphic design for their, their specific need.And then tomorrow you're working with a realtor. That's gonna need to kind of promote their business. And then the next day you're working with a chemist. And so, you really have capacity to kind of find information from very diverse sources and then come up with a way to communicate it in an effective way.And I, and I find that very fascinating and interesting that at least from running around, like we were raised. Narrow tunnel. And we're kind of concentrating in our areas of expertise, but I feel graphic designers have this capacity of being exposed to these very vast levels of, of different and subject matters.And you're able then to kind of distill all that information and make it in communicated in a very effective way. But yeah, no, I think that's one of the things and, and so I really think it's kind of the communication.Eric: [00:27:09] That's, that's good to hear. Wanted to, to kind of build on that question here. You, you, you talked about your kind of slim window with, with your wife in terms of, you know, about design and son education. Um, what do you think in particular we could bring from the world, your world of climate science, into our world of design education, any specific things or general things that you think we can, we can look at?Gerardo: [00:27:39] Yeah, I think there's, I guess, one big area that I think, and it has to do with data. And, and I think one of the things that we struggle with that, and because academia and kind of like the scientific community wants our data to be presented, did in a very specific manner, which, obviously, it's not made for them assets.And so, I think data visualization is something that I feel that we could use a lot in, in kind of the expertise of graphic designers and help us visualize our data. And so, my, my previous employer was Northern Arizona university and they had a. Uh, centered there for ecosystems, sciences, and society, and they actually contracted, uh, he was more of an.Kind of, uh, artist and illustrator that helped us kind of get these really complex and I guess, subject matter and trying in kind of come up with a visual way in which we can explain what the research we were doing. So, I think that's one really important thing. And then I think the other one, in which, again, going back to.Seeing my, my wife in the process of graphic designers is, is that you're. Documentation of, uh, the whole process of, from the very beginning to the product that you guys have, you guys go through so many iterations, but it's all documented and that's part of the product right. In the end. It's all that. And, and I think from kind of our realm of data, like we come up, we have this figure that we've created.It has that thought, but there's the story of how you got that thought is kind of lost. We do kind of document, like we went out, we measured this this time, and we did this with this instrument. And so, there's, there's some information, but it's not very conducive to understanding. And I think that's one of the stories that we're missing from.And kind of explaining the data so that the public is more confident about it because I think that there's not now with all these conspiracy theories and people not understanding how like, oh, how do you know that this, this is the world is really warming? How do you know they're not making up the data?And so, I think we're missing that process of explaining to the public that this is a process. This is how we measured it. And in a way. Again, it's easy to communicate because if you put scientists to try and explain it, they're just gives you a Eric: [00:30:30] list of go over your head. Gerardo: [00:30:34] Yeah. It's just a recipe of instruments and things that were used.And so, I think that because of the graphic design community is so used to creating these kind of process books and understanding like what that whole irritative process and documenting it. I think we could learn from that or are these get involved in a way that that can help us then document cause even like picking.Pictures of our experiments were really bad at that. Like,we, we have this communication we have to give out, do we have any pictures of our experiment? Oh my gosh. Well, we have these. And so, we don't really take, we don't where we're kind of concentrated in producing the science, but not like the process of creating it, which is. Eric: [00:31:18] So tell the story of the data, Gerardo: [00:31:20] tell the story of the data.And I think that's, what's missing from people believing in the data because I mean, the community, the science community understands and believes it. But I think the public is becoming very skeptical, especially now with a lot of the environment that we're having is, is people are, are, are skeptical. Yeah.Eric: [00:31:40] And so you need a crew of. Photojournalists basically to join you, but the Arctic. Gerardo: [00:31:48] Yeah. Eric: [00:31:49] So I'll volunteer. If there's enough room on your grants, Gerardo: [00:31:52] definitely. We would love to have you, Eric: [00:31:56] and we've mentioned your, your, wife numerous times, but never her name Gerardo: [00:31:59] Gaby Hernandez.Yes. She's a faculty here at the university of Florida as well. Eric: [00:32:04] a great design educator. I've met her many times. Gerardo: [00:32:07] Yes. Eric: [00:32:08] I just didn't think it was fair to keep on saying your wife, your wife, and, uh, let's let's give her name Gerardo: [00:32:14] or really introduce her. Eric: [00:32:15] Yes. So, I'm going to put you on the spot here because, um, you might be able to answer this question with the things you just said.I want you to put yourself in our shoes and your design educator for the next five weeks, and you have to assign a design project. What would that project be? Could be a big idea. Gerardo: [00:32:39] Yeah, Eric: [00:32:40] it doesn't have to be constrained by budget, but yeah. What would you think it would be best suited to, to bridge climate science with, with design?Gerardo: [00:32:51] So I think one of the, and this is something that I believe in and that I think we should probably move more towards is when we, when we contacted. Graphic designers. We tend to contact them after the fact, right after we've done all the research and done everything.Right. And, and I remember my wife Gaby saying, yeah, you, you just think of us as beautifers. Right. You got all this content and you just, yeah. You're just going to hate it here, make it pretty. And so, I think from, from, I think a project where not even that the whole kind of ideation of, of, or coming up with the research project that we want, where everyone is at the beginning.Right. And I think there's a lot of things to learn both ways. Right. I think graphic designers are going to then ask the researchers questions that, that research haven't really thought about and vice versa. Like the, I think, probably scientists would be like, well, why did she choose that type? Why are you choosing those colors?Right? What, what, what, what, what's the whole process, because I think it's there there's so, so I think the project more than a specific project, I think it's just the idea of creating something from the very scratch but including. Graphic designers and the researchers together, but also so that they kind of respect each other.Right. Because I think sometimes the graphic designers might think as the researcher, as a client, more than a colleague or somebody who's going to work. Okay. Let's work with this together and try and solve the issue. Right. And so, but I think that dynamic requires you partnering with someone who believes that graphic design has a lot to offer, and you must also believe in the science that has something to offer.Eric: [00:34:52] You’re kind of volunteering yourself for many of the design educators, because you match all those things. Gerardo: [00:34:59] Yeah. Yeah, no, I, I think so. And I think that's that that's something that we need to do more on, because I think for, for, from, I guess, even from the graphic design perspective, you understand the problem and, and it's, and like I said, it's even the whole data creation and process.Like if you're in there doing it, I mean, not hiring you as just a photographer, you would go out and collect data. We would work together. And, and I think that's kind of the dynamics that I think are going to be needed kind of moving forward in these really big crises, because it really takes everyone to be emerged in, in submerged, in the issue so that they, the solutions can kind of come forward.And, and so I think. Yeah, just having these, this that's kind of mine. I mean, and then it doesn't only have to be graphic designers and the researchers you can bring in social science. everyone's welcome. But I think. Creating a, uh, kind of level playing field where everyone respects each other, and everyone has an opinion and can contribute.Right. And I think that's where, where I think a lot of these solutions and information is going to come out. Get to that level, because if we kind of are all working separately, we can kind of produce some type of solution. But I do believe that the sum of the parts is, is, is, is better than the home. Yeah.Eric: [00:36:36] Well, you're preaching to the choir here. And designers have been for years saying, give us a seat at the adults table. You know, we want to, we want a chance. To be on a level playing field and be part of the team. Yeah, that is, uh, like you said, like make it pretty, I can pretty Gerardo: [00:36:57] much make it pretty.And like I said that I think that graphic designers, because they've been exposed to so many different diverse subject matters, like they probably worked with an environmental lawyer that has been they've done work for them. Sure. So, the whole round. And so, I think what you, what designers can bring to the table, and it's very important, but not just like beautifying, but also that whole thought process.And, and, and I think even one thing that I've also noticed from graphic designers, they're really good at taking critique. You're used to editing every day, getting critiqued and so when you combine those, there probably be some rough edges. But I think in the end, scientists will, will become better scientists too, right.It gives me a lot of ideas. I might have to reach out to you.  Eric: Well, we're coming up to the end here and didn't want to take up too much of your time today, but I wanted to ask one last thing. As we kinda wrap up is, you know what, there's a lot of, you know, you, you see it all, like from your peer work, if they're in the Arctic, all their projects, do what gives you hope that we're going to have a better tomorrow based on everything that you're collecting and data.I think that the hope comes in and kind of these types of interactions. I think once everyone understands the problem in a way that then is starting us to create these different venues in different ways to kind of address the issue. I think we, as humans were able to kind of take us in this trajectory because of our past, but I think our future is, is.Going to require these types of interactions that we're having right now to kind of solve it. And I think as long as we're moving in that direction, I think it, solutions aren't going to come up and at least become more aware of, of the issue. So, I, I think in the end, that's what gives me hope is that there are people who are interested there.There are people who are trying to think out of the box and trying to come up with solutions that then can. Kind of shed some light into the issue and hopefully you've come up with solutions. So, so I, I think it's out there. It's just a matter of time that we, we kind of get to it, right? Yeah, definitely.Eric: [00:39:25] It reminds me of the Gretta Thunberg statement where that the older generations have failed us, but homosapiens haven't failed. Gerardo: [00:39:34] Exactly. We're still alive. Eric: [00:39:36] Gerardo, thank you so much for joining our show. And, uh, we look forward to all the work that you're doing up there and, uh, helping us, uh, learn more about climate.And so, we can come help communicate it to the masses as designers. Gerardo: [00:39:52] Yeah. No, thank you for having me. It was a pleasure and yeah, hopefully who knows maybe in the future, we'll be working too.Eric: [00:39:58] I love it. I love it. Gerardo: [00:40:00] Excellent. Thank you. Eric: [00:40:02] Thanks for tuning in today to Climify. But don't leave just yet. I've got more goodness for you coming up. As the pandemic has really affected our friends in the performing arts where they're unable to book shows tour, or sometimes even get into a recording studio. I thought I'd highlight one at the end of each of our episodes. Since this is a podcast for designers. The musicians featured on each are also designers. Well, I'll turn it over to our first artist to explain who they are and the reasons behind their music.

Episode 1 – Jasmine Sanders Jasmine Sanders joins Eric to discuss how twists of fate and faith led her to become a Climate Scientist and Marine Biologist who fights daily for an equitable future through climate action; and, of course, how designers can help best join her in this important journey. Listen to this episode on: Spotify, Apple, Google and other places you get your podcasts About our guestJasmine Sanders is a climate scientist, strategist, advocate, and native of Monroe, Louisiana. She is the Executive Director of Our Climate, a climate change advocacy organization energized by its youth grassroots movement. Striving to raise awareness of the intersecting effects of climate change and the communities of color who are disproportionately affected, she utilizes the positivity that results from uplifting our youth to make a global impact. Previously, she managed the strategic initiatives and special projects for HIAS, wrote legislative briefs for the U.S. House of Representatives Science, Space and Technology Committee, and worked for Terpstra Associates, a DC lobbying firm where she advocated on Capitol Hill for agricultural and environmental issues. She earned a graduate degree from the University of Essex with an MSc in Tropical Marine Biology. Specializing in climate change, her graduate thesis detailed the Shifts in the Genetic Composition of three DMS-consuming cnidarians. Ms. Sanders is a graduate from the University of South Alabama with a BS in Biology and a minor in Spanish. She currently resides in Washington, DC.On the webPersonal Instagram: @jazzyclimateOC Instagram: @ourclimateleadersPersonal Twitter: @jazzyclimateOC Twitter: @ourclimateusLinktree: jasminechariceMusic in this episodeThe musical guest is Octavia Romano performing "Silver Linings" from her new album Aperta.Theme music by Casual Motive   Climate Design AssignmentsAt the end of each episode, we ask our guests what their ideal climate design project would be. They have four weeks with a class full of design students. We translated their response into a project brief that you can use for your class. Get Assignments   Follow Climify on IG   « Back to episodes   Episode TranscriptEric: [00:01:02] welcome to Climify I'm Eric Benson, and I'll be your host this season. As we talk to climate experts from all over the world. To help us design educators fight the climate crisis in our classrooms. And yes, I'm also a design educator. I've been teaching for 15 years here at the university of Illinois. But even if you're not a design educator, listening to this show, there’s so much useful information jam packed in each. That you too can learn how to do your part to help reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. In this first episode, I'm excited to talk with Jasmine Sanders. I found Jasmine on LinkedIn and was really impressed with her achievements and how much she posts about climate action and climate science. I was also further impressed by how well she uses design to communicate all the information she knows about climate science. So, I took a chance and reached out to her and asked her to be on the program. And thankfully she agreed. So, here's a little bit about Jasmine. She's a climate scientist. Strategist. Advocate. And native and Monroe, Louisiana. She's the executive director of our climate. It's a climate change advocacy organization energized by as youth grassroots movement. Previously. She managed the strategic initiatives and special projects for HIAS wrote legislative briefs for the us house of representatives. And was a lobbyist on Capitol hill for agricultural and environmental issues. She earned her graduate degree from the university of Essex, with a Master of Science in tropical Marine biology. Ms. Sanders is also a graduate from the university of south Alabama with a BS in biology and minor in Spanish. She currently resides in Washington, DC. If you want to know more about Jasmine, you can follow her on Instagram at JasmineShariece1031.  Or on Twitter at JasmineShariece5.  Now let's dive in.Jasmine, it's really nice to meet you. And we are honored that you're here in our premier episode of our season of Climify. We're excited. You're here and I wanted to dive right in and get to know a little bit about you.We know you are a climate science. But can you tell us a little bit more about where you are in the world and what you're doing and what you're excited about doing right now? Jasmine: [00:03:33] My name is Jasmine Sanders. I'm currently the executive director of Our Climate I reside in Washington, DC and I work on climate justice workday in, day out, professionally and personally, because when I leave the office, it still is impacting. Eric: [00:03:50] Yeah. And that's actually something that I was reading about in your bio when it came to your personal life, you talk about your Southern roots.So, I'm interested in knowing about how all of this has impacted you your whole life. Cause you mentioned you grew up in Louisiana in your bio and you witnessed climate change there. Can you talk a little bit more about your past and how that led to where you are now?Jasmine: [00:04:12] So for me let's see, where do we start? Let's ground this a little bit.   I was growing up in Monroe, Louisiana, which is approximately four hours northeast of New Orleans.  Yes, there are other cities in Louisiana.  Most people think that it's just New Orleans.  So as I was growing up for me, it was the smell of the Bayou that was grounding. I absolutely loved it. I think many people can relate having this calming feeling associated with different bodies of water. For me, it was the Bayou specifically the Bayou that was running through one row.And my house didn't sit on there by you, but many of my friends did and. I was used to barbecues and family gatherings and going to sit across the levy to look at the bayou. Because my boyfriend just broke up with me, I want to think about life. It would be where we would have high school parties.But when 2005 hit which, I was heavily deep into club soccer and being recruited for college. Everything changed. We heard on the news that this huge hurricane was coming, and it kept getting bigger and bigger. At first everyone was like, oh, another hurricane. And when we knew that it was category five it was just the sense of urgency.With everyone and I can remember, even right now in this moment of how my uncle was trapped on the highway for over 24 hours trying to get to our house. He was from Southern Louisiana. This was due to everyone last minute, trying to get out because we have been used to hurricanes. We weren't used to this type though.We weren't used to a madhouse people trying to get out. And they're not being properly evacuation groups. The world was not used to seeing people rush inside of the Superdome for a shelter because they did not want to transportation over 70% of the population within your New Orleans does not own a vehicle.This wasn't accommodated for I was witnessing where people, it's weeks later, it's a couple months later. Yeah. They have temporarily gained shelter with family and friends elsewhere, whether it was in state or out of state. But a lot of these people weren't coming back. They migrated, they moved to the Northeast, to the Midwest, to Houston, Texas.This is where I'm seeing climate migration, but I didn't really actually know that's what it was called. I just knew people were moving away. People lost everything. It wasn't just that you lost your house or that you lost all of your favorite clothes or your Barbie doll. You lost your grandmother's necklace that have been passed down generation to generation lost all of those family photos that can't be recovered.It was going to cost you more to try and recover the house rather than you buy another house. Your kids could no longer have their same friends or go to that same school. Everything was done. It was months later; you still saw FEMA trailers sitting around. You still saw people living inside of them.The money that was invested back into New Orleans and surrounding areas. Where do you think it went? Do you think it went into all of the different wards and the neighborhoods, or do you think it went into bourbon street, canal street, where all the tourists are? And so, when that happens, something awakened in my soul.But it was awakened. It didn't come out yet though. I went on to study biology at the nursing south, Alabama on a D one college soccer scholarship. And I was plugging away. I was going to be an MD doctor and always said, I had always said that I was going to be an OB GYN near NATO surgeon.And I was doing great in school and on the field with soccer. My junior year things turned for me. God threw me a little pivot. Let me just throw you a plot twist to your life. And I had a major stroke in her surgery and nine months later after rehab intense rehab, I was able to walk around again and was released to be able to play my last season of college soccer.This was pretty money, mental being that they were calling you a miracle. The client had gone to migraine. And there's that tissue in my thalamus, which is really the part of your brain, where everything runs in and out. So, my brain has figured out new pathways for things simultaneously as I was rehabbing and just trying to figure out life again.I knew that I did not want to be in the medical field. I was being picked and prodded and tested. And I knew it wasn't for me, but I knew I still wanted to be in biology. That was the love of my life. Even though I had grown up in a household where sciences mass were extremely important in your grades, better be A's.And maybe a few weeks. I loved biology. I love the outdoors. After I finished my senior year of soccer, I studied abroad and beliefs for a second. And I was able to see the rain forest, the jungle and then we were in the sea. So, we were on south water key, which is very tiny island in the Caribbean Sea.And one morning I was very early. The sun was not up yet. I free-dove on a coral reef and as I was coming up, the sun was rising right behind me. And I had another moment of God speaking to me and saying, this is what you need to do. And I'm like, okay, inanimate figure. I've never actually heard a voice I believed in you.But I didn't really know. And it's clear. So, I said, okay this is apparently what I'm supposed to be doing. And I went back to south Alabama told my advisor RA when I finished, I want to go to grad school and I want to study Marine biology and she's okay, cool. Now here's some schools.I definitely think you should apply. Great Marine biology here in the U S and I was like, I don't want to be in the United States. We. Looked into various schools. I actually did an application system shout out to across the pond. They work with us students getting them in the schools in the UK.And I decided to go to the university of Essex for a few reasons, one, they had some top Marine biologists who had various specialties too. They had an onsite. In three, which was really like the most important thing was that I was going to be able to study abroad while studying abroad. So doing research in Indonesia who could pass that opportunity.Yeah. It's included in your grad research program to be able to go study in one of the world's biodiversity hotspots. I was like, yep. That's where I'm going. So, sign me up. So, I left. Moved to England said peace out to the family who didn't really believe in. I got on the plane that I was actually gonna go.And then when I let's see, Eric: [00:11:17] …is that your first time traveling abroad too? Is that no. Jasmine: [00:11:23] No, my family, I don't know why. Cause I was all, I was the kid when I was younger. They would drop me off at one camp, come pick me up, like overnight camp and the week passes, they come and pick up, you do your little I dunno, play or something on stage and packing your bags.And I'm like, okay. When am I going to the next camp? I had always been that kid who always wanted to be off loved my family, but like I wanted to see the world I wanted to. Yeah. So no, why they didn't believe, I don't know. And they should have believed, I think they were more so in denial than anything.And probably also, because technically let's see. My stroke was in 20, 2010. And I left for England in 2013. So, they were still, I think, gravitating and letting go of like she's good. Even though I had shown them, I was going. I think they were as parents, all parents. I don't know why.I understand too, but I, so anyway, I was over in England, I was living it up and when I say living it up, going to class two, three days out of the week writing reports, but I can hop on a train and go to a new country or city within the UK and be working on that. That's the beauty of grad school.It's very hard work. This was a one-year straight-through program, which is also the beauty of going abroad for school and it's cheaper. But I. Was really looking forward to being able to go to Indonesia. This is where for me, I found my gift. Namely that was my voice. I knew that I could always sit with various people and have conversations and was quite comfortable.I was the kid who was four and five and would go sit at the adults table and have like very strategic conversations with them and use big words. And then I would run outside and play with my friends. But in Indonesia, my world opened up. I was again, seeing a community of color be disproportionately impacted by climate change.Context was different. There were a lot of various socio-cultural context there. There was mistrust of government yet working with them. There was the blowing up of the choral minds because if you built your house upon the coral reef, it was showcasing that you were wealthy. There was a lot of play on play going here.And the let's see, like 80- to 90-year-olds were able to tell them. There's no more fish in the sea. When I was growing up, there were plenty of fish. It was breakfast, lunch dinner, while I was there, we ate tuna three times a day. Every way that you could think that you could eat tuna, that is the only type of fish we had.And this is in one of the world's biodiversity hotspots. We had younger kids. I worked specifically with a group of young girls who ranged from seven to 12 years old, and several of them were telling me how Jasmine, I want to leave the island and go to the big island or a way to study conservation and then come back to my village and implement best practices.And this was great. I knew from talking and looking into it. Everything that was going on there on the sea, but everything that's going on in the sea affects us on land that I needed to use my voice. That was my gift. That's what I had always had, but I just didn't really know that I could use it for good.And so, I knew I needed to, after finishing my thesis, which was in July. And I studied the shifts in the genetic composition of three DMS consuming Nigerians. I know people listening are like, what in the world is that? Eric: [00:15:07] What is that?Jasmine: [00:15:12] Yeah. Yeah. So, think of the smell of the sea, close your eyes, and you think of the smell of the seat, that's DMS dimethyl, sulfide. And so, you have nine Darien's. These are different corals, different sponges. That are consuming a lot of DMS which is something that will occur with climate change.And I wanted to see from a microscopic level, how were these organisms DNA going to change or be impacted by an intense heat impact? And one of the organisms it died. Another one. Yeah. The DNA completely changed another one. The DNA changed and a week later, the DNA reverted back to its original DNA.So, what did this tell me? This told me species are going to survive. Others are going to adapt and change, and others are just going to be completely resisted. Okay. And this is the big question we have in regard to climate change of how are human beings and other animals going to react to this as it increases.And it intensifies the earth has survived five mass extinctions. I that, that's why like when I hear the sane, save the earth, save the planet. The earth is. Yelling and screaming at us right now to get our acts together. That's why the earth is acting like this. The earth is going to be good.It's shown us historically that it is going to be good. Now whether we're going to be good, that's what we need to worry about. We'll be, we'll Eric: [00:16:51] be wanted either changes our DNA. Resilient or dies. Basically. Jasmine: [00:16:57] And hopefully if we were to figure out that, like it was the ladder, then, maybe we figured out a new planet or moon to live on by that time.I think it's going to be different for a lot of us because if you think of our DNA makeup as human beings, all of our DNAs are different. Like it is. So, what are going to be the various factors or things that help us or don't make us as adaptable, for example, the melanin in our skin.Is that going to be helpful? Or is it not going to that's, that's something I think of I'm not sure, and. This is what, it's not a struggle in that. We're not, we don't have great scientists out here who are studying this day in day out. It's a struggle because everyday climate change is escalating.It's increasing its intensifying hurricanes. Last year, they were the most intense that they had ever been before. And we had the most as in the amount of hurricane. So, with this rapid intensity and then now you're having an unsurvivable storm surges. So, I wrote this article in USA today about how it was 15 years later from hurricane Katrina.And yet now we're experiencing hurricane Laura and where I'm from in Monroe, Louisiana, four hours north of New Orleans. We were the second highest area of losing power for over a week from the unsurvivable storm surges of hurricane Laura. Wow. What does that mean in a pandemic that you lose power for a week?That means that you lost everything in your fridge. And I know I was not the only household buying for my family, a lot of frozen chicken and frozen shrimp. If you eat that, but I, we stopped up at the grocery store because it was the pain. So, think of you're losing all of that, that, and people lost jobs.People have been laid off. So, these are all the different complexes to climate change. Climate change is not just, it affects the weather. It affects the environment. It affects us financially health-wise migration, socio culturally, racially food insecurity. And so those are the different areas that we have to think about connected it's connected.And this is why we are so gung-ho about talking about intersectionality. And I guess to backtrack of how I got to D C when I finished my thesis in a lab, you can hear the enthusiasm in my voice with that. Eric: [00:19:35] You don’t sound too enthusiastic about the lab. Jasmine: [00:19:38] Yeah. I don't know, lab work. It's cool. Like cool and lab, but it's not cool in that if things aren't working, how they're supposed to, you can't throw a glass or.Being loud and go up. Everyone's quiet and we're. Yeah. And I was like, that is not for me. So, I came back, and I knew that if I was going to use my voice and be in policy and advocacy, I needed to be at the hub and that's Washington DC. So, for the past, almost 10 years, I've been here working.On climate change, I dove some into the international refugee work for about three years prior to this role. And I really was wanting to work on climate migration. Again, it was all circling back to me, however, I was getting some pushback. And this has become. You will see, and you will hear there's starting to be movement this year.But in past years you would hear from refugee and immigration organizations and then from environmental organizations on this side that, oh, no, that's your issue? Oh, no, that's your issue. And so again, people weren't seeing the intersectionality of climate migration And I think that now, because one, we have climate champions in the white house, the house, the Senate on the local level climate change is a social justice issue that adult allies and young people are being so vocal about right now that you can't ignore the intersectionality of climate change.Eric: [00:21:24] Or the changing climate for some of my more conservative listeners. This is raising matters to them, huh? Jasmine: [00:21:26] Exactly. Exactly. You need to know your audience and the language that you use. But this is an issue that we can't ignore. And I think I said at the beginning, I think I did.Maybe this was in a meeting earlier today, day runs together. But like working on a social justice issue, don't leave it when you go home. Like when I leave the office, climate change is still impacting me. It's still going on. And so, for me, it's really like a balance of like, how do I show up as an advocate and work?And then how do I show up as an advocate personally, and with my family. And trying to like to navigate and figure that out. Eric: [00:22:07] Jasmine, let's take a quick break and we'll be back right after these messages.COMMERCIAL Eric: [00:23:27] So I'm gonna throw you a compliment. You're a great storyteller, and I've been completely enthralled with your history, and you've been through so much to get to where you are today and you're still fighting.For sure. Most people, when I asked them, did you have an epiphany at some point? Like, how did you get involved? They always say. Yeah. And it's usually like one thing, but you've had, okay, let's go back. So, you had Hurricane Katrina, you had the, by you, before that you had your stroke in, in college, which woke you up and put you to sleep and woke you back up really.And then on top of that you realize you want to be a doctor and there's biology. You decided to go and see the world and the world gave you. Oh no, I forgot about the swimming in the coming up, right? Yeah. I forgot about that one. That was beautiful. One to visualize it was, I was in believes.I'm trying to think back and then you have the rest of the world in your travels. Just awaken you to more of the problem, how everything is interconnected and Some of the things that you just said as well for designers, know your audience. Like we need to know our audience. We need to tell great stories.We need to connect climate to the audience. Since I'm wondering, as everything is connected, do you think there is the most, there is a most important the thing that either everyday person needs to think about or a designer needs to think about a, to fight climate change. Jasmine: [00:24:59] Yeah. That's a somewhat loaded question.So, we'll break it apart. In regard to the everyday person, what I like to think about is that we've got to raise awareness to the intersectionality of things. We have to show people why you need to care. I can say as a black woman and me thinking about it will be really real right now in the podcast of how, when my partner walks outside of the door every day.My heart sinks that as a black woman Me as a black woman driving around and a police car comes behind me, not even necessarily, their sirens are on my heart drops. That is the issues that go, that are going on here in the United States. Put climate change on top of that climate change only exacerbates the existing stressors and inequities that have been in place in this country and around the world for hundreds of years.So, when I think about how we can be involved as individuals, every great and major social justice movement happened on the local level. That's where our focus has to be. That's where change happens. We can advocate and I'm a huge advocate. Obviously, I work with people on the hill, and I want federal policy to pass.Hopeful. And I'm glad that there's movement there now, but where real change to happen. And there's not as many barriers is the local level. So, get involved with a local environmental justice organization speak with your elected officials on the local level. What I mean by that go to the city council meeting, you get on the agenda.They make that that information available for you. They tell you what the agenda is. They give you the process of, oh, I want that on next week's agenda. And you get time to speak and to bring it up to them. They have to be available, whether you elected them or not, they represent you. And that's the most important thing.I think people get this block in their head of oh, I didn't vote for them. That doesn't matter. They represent you. Implement sustainable practices in your home and in your workplace. So, for example, in your home, we all talk about recycling, but it's also doing compost. If you have a community garden that already exists, then be part of that.Not only is that making sure that there's local food sources that are being in the, that are already in the community, but then it's also that you are. Forming those bonds with your neighbors in your community go to the local farmer's market, buy their food. It tastes awesome. I don't know why anyone would skip the farmer's market because it's fresh food.It's grown. You're directly investing back into your own community. Those are jobs that most people are in some ways are connected to you. Conserve your electricity and water. Don't take a 30-minute shower, come on now. It doesn't take that long to wash your body in your hair. Okay. It really does conserve electricity.I'm sure some people have seen where. You'll go on a trip in an Airbnb I've seen in some where they will ask you to turn off the lights. Every time you leave and unplug that cord. These are small ways that you can conserve electricity. It's not just good for the environment, but it also saves you money on your bill.That's a helpful tip. Eric: [00:28:20] The other green that's what I like to call Jasmine: [00:28:22] it. Yes. And then there's the whole thing of. Eating plant-based meals going vegan going vegetarian. Back in the day, I'm not hating on anyone who has been a vegan, vegetarian plant-based, et cetera. But back in the day that did not really sound attractive.But now, Did, we forget? We have seasonings. We have where we can make stuff be flavorful. You can eat something that's plant-based and you don't even realize it. Make plant-based spaghetti and you have no idea. It's great. This is how you can make an individual in a familial and a community impact.And then the last thing I would say is by bringing the conversation to the dinner table and this is like having a conversation like we're having right now. The other day I did with my family extended family, they wanted me to do a climate change 1 0 1 presentation. So, the family and it was during our, we have Friday night family zoom dinners, and that's what I did.And again, you have to keep it to a certain level because everyone is coming in at various levels, but look up the local news, that morning Hey everyone brings one article to the dinner on Friday or at happy hour. I've had my friends, it wasn't on climate change, but one person would be responsible for picking out an article.We'd all read it. And then a happy hour. The first 20 to 30 minutes would be talking about that news article. This is how you're intentional about continuous learning and being involved. And then on the design aspect of it, Eric: [00:29:48] right. The big question. Jasmine: [00:29:50] Okay. So, when I think of design, I think of accessibility.I think of accountability, and I think of how we need to be mindful not just. Not just for the consumer, but for our community and mother earth and making a statement. I think that's one of the most important things that people. Yeah, people in design can do is making a statement hold true to your values.If people know, for example, that you're not going to work with a vendor because they don't have sustainable practices, that's making a statement. If you are making sure that you are only going to use materials that are good for the earth, and I don't have my list in front of me, but they're literally.I made a post about this a few weeks ago. And there are literally like good materials to work with. Okay. Materials and then like bad materials get rid of those. And I think it's also, when I talk about the accessibility, you have designers. If we talk specifically about sustainable fashion designers, you have some who.Okay. They're making sustainable fashion. They're using the right fabrics, but then they want you to pay like $250 for a blouse. How are we, like, how accessible is that? Yeah. And so, we have to make sure that when we're talking about whether it's the passion industry, the architectural design industry, whether it's the car industry, And these sustainable practices.We have to make things where they're accessible, have different versions of them have where it's the Prius costs. The Tesla costs the brand-new Mercedes BMW cost, but it's all accessible. It's all sustainable materials. You're bringing in the right people. Don't go to the same people that you've been going to who are just now trying to implement things.There've been people who have implemented these practices and. Had these different materials for years, but no one has used them. Now. Everyone is like woke and they want to be part of the process and stuff. And it's there has to be authenticity in things. So, making a statement acknowledge for those who have been existing designers, acknowledge what you have or have not done in the past.That is a key thing to how we heal. As a people how we heal as a country and how we continue to combat the climate crisis, you have to be accountable to yourself. And then it is really showing people that you're making an effort and you're being intentional about who you're involving in the product who was helping you complete the product.And. Even when you talk about sustainable fashion design. If we go into the fashion industry and all these various this might be taboo. So, the various sweatshops that exist the same people who are working in the sweat shops are the same people who are disproportionately impacted by the climate crisis.And not only are they disproportionately impacted, but they're also the ones who are the most vulnerable in general, they're not being paid, but 2 cents, so all of these designs that you're making that are sustainable and stuff, they can't even afford it. They can't even afford it. The people who are making them that doesn't make sense, that doesn't correlate.So, we have to do better in that regard. Eric: [00:33:32] I agree. I think with designers, we're very aware of accessibility but mainly when you're online, when you're working with digital devices, the interfaces that we make, we're aware of accessibility from that perspective. But I think you're right. I don't think design has been, I definitely know design has not been.Great on accessibility from the climate front, from worker safety front, from, all of these different things that you've mentioned. And so, I wonder too, like I think as an educator I can't afford a Tesla. I'd love. I know you mentioned Tesla. I'd love to get one. In fact, I put money down on it and then I realized I just can't, I can't do it even.I couldn't do it. And I'm definitely passionate. Doing better in my life. So, from the design perspective, I think you've given us a lot of, do you see things to think about, but what about as just an educator? What should you do in the classroom? I love authenticity and I think that's something that I try to bring to the table when I'm talking about climate, what can we do for.For the next generation. Cause I, I think it's partly our responsibility to help them. What would you tell us? Yeah, from your perspective, Jasmine: [00:34:48] that's a great question. I think for me, one of the most profound things I felt from professors was when they came to the table, very authentic.And when they also brought other people to the table, so real-life examples. And you can frame them as guest speakers, but these could be people who are your friends. These are people who it could be someone who works in the sweater. Who can tell you literally give you the breakdown of what goes on in a sweatshop?And then you can have people who are very up and coming and have worked in some of these fashion houses and be able to tell you what have been those sustainable practices that they've put into place or not. Is this something that's actually talked about in companies right now? A few of them we know it is others.It's just because it's a hot topic it's being talked about. It's not because they're actually going to do something. I think it's also setting the stage for the. I don't want to just narrow it down to young people because anyone can go to school at any age, but these people who are in design school and you're educating them, lay out the facts of where we are and where we've been, don't hide that.That has been a problem in education across the board where we have not acknowledged the history of America. It's cut out of textbooks. So, acknowledge that within. Within design, what have been some of the pros we've done, who are some of those powerhouses who are actually doing something about it?Where were some of the mistakes lay those out because you want to set them up for success. That's what you're doing. As an educator, you're providing them with tools. You're giving them the facts so that they can make their decisions. Cause they have everything you've given them all of that. So now they can make their decisions to go into the world and you can feel like a proud daddy or a proud mama.And yeah, I gave them those tools. That's how you want to feel as an educator. Like I could name my like two or three favorite teachers and it's because I still feel like I have the tools and takeaways that they can, and I think it's also about connection and forming a network or a hub.So, I'm not sure if within your school, how you continuously engage your alumni. But that's also something to think about of creating some sort of alumni engagement program that gives them direct access to Designers in the field to also students. So, there's that connection and people can share what practices have you implemented?How are you doing things? What are the best vendors that you've been getting your product from? And. These are small things that you can put together. And then it just, I dunno, I feel like we create better human beings this way. Eric: [00:37:40] Yeah, I like that. So, I'm going to put you in our shoes for a moment.You're a design educator. I'm giving you four weeks. You're taking over my class.  What kind of product, what kind of design project would you say? My students what would it be? How would you go about doing it to match all these, parameters that you've shared with us today?Jasmine: [00:38:02] You're putting me on the spot Eric: [00:38:03] here. It's a tough one because this is what I'm always thinking. We're always thinking about what we do to have the most impact on our students. And it's it's tough because there's so many things, like you said, everything's connected. How do you, and usually we get students get bored after four, four-week projects.So, this is like the timeline that we have. Jasmine: [00:38:24] Okay. So, it's going to be a few projects in the one. Cause I'm an overachiever. The theme is sweatshops, social injustices and systemic impacts of fast fashion. And first they would need to write a one-page A one page blog post and or press release.And this has to be about a new product that they've created. There has to be a test version of the product that we can see. And like I was talking about earlier, there needs to be different levels. So, you need to show me how it's accessible from a financial point of view I need to see that you procured at least three different estimates of vendors and it needs to be diverse group of vendors.And then I would also want to hear your pitch to different Shops boutiques stores or online platforms of where you would sell this product. Again, you would need to show me that you're able to change and adjust your language to be able to pitch this to them. I think that's it. Four weeks.You got four weeks to do Eric: [00:39:43] that. Yeah. Change the fashion industry on top of it. Jasmine: [00:39:46] Exactly. Exactly. How many people are in a class like 20? Eric: [00:39:51] Yeah. About 2012 to 20 is usually about, about what we have. Jasmine: [00:39:55] That seat you're changing the world. Then you got 20 new products coming out. New vendors that you're working with got press releases.Eric: [00:40:02] Yeah. I always like to think, with my students, most of them are gonna end up working in some sort of corporate environment, but cogs in the machine, and if I can, make sure. As a little misshapen cog, as much as I can to sort of gum up the works and make it better than I've done my job.So, I really appreciate all your answers today and your stories. Really powerful life you've lived so far, and I hope you continue to do great things. I'm very impressed with everything that you're doing. And I'm really thankful that you were here today on our first episode. It feels we just started talking, but I spent almost 50 minutes.Really appreciate you. And thanks for spending time. Jasmine: [00:40:48] Yeah. Thank you, guys, so much. And I look forward to continuously being engaged with you guys. Eric: [00:40:55] Yeah. We'd love to have you in our classes and that material list that you mentioned. That's something I would love to. Jasmine: [00:41:00] Yes. I can shoot that link over to you Eric: [00:41:03] and we'll share it with everyone.Yes. Okay. All right. Thanks Jasmine. And it's been a nice conversation today, and like you said, I'd love to stay connected and see what we can do. Jasmine: [00:41:15] Awesome. Thank you. Let's change the world. Eric: [00:41:27] Thanks for tuning in today to Climify. But don't leave just yet. I've got more goodness for you coming up.  Music.  As the pandemic has really affected our friends in the performing arts where they're unable to book shows tour, or sometimes even get into a recording studio. I thought I'd highlight one at the end of each of our episodes. Since this is a podcast for designers. The musicians featured on each are also designers. Well, I'll turn it over to our first artist to explain who they are and the reasons behind their music.  Octavia: [00:42:04] Hi, I'm Octavia Romano. I'm a designer originally from Cordova. I relocated to New York, but I lived for several years, and I'm currently based back home. I'm also a musician and composer and my most recent release is a porta, a record of all original songs that combined all my musical influences, including folk music from south America.So jazz and classical music. I chose the song silver linings from Alperta because it's about hope and new beginning. And I felt it is relevant to the times we're living in. I hope you enjoyed; you can learn more about my music on my website Octaviaromano.com.