Climify Sustainable Design Should Be Foundational
Episode 3 – Lisa Zimmermann
Lisa Zimmermann joins Eric to share her research and teaching tips in sustainable design from her day job as Lecturer at Griffith College in Dublin, Ireland. She laments how much we still don't teach in design school – from where paper comes from to the life cycle of the products we make, and how changes in our design curriculums don't come fast enough to match the quickly changing times.
Listen to this episode on: Spotify, Apple, Google and other places you get your podcastsAbout our guest
Lisa Zimmermann is a German-Irish design researcher and educator specializing in "climifying" the profession of Communication Design.
While her passion for advertising, copywriting and design persists until today, she realized early on that she couldn't work for traditional ad agencies for moral reservations towards working for clients she doesn't consider ethically sound.
Her initial research into Sustainable Graphic Design Practice in Ireland, undergone during an M.A. in Design Practice led her to specialize in this niche area of Graphic/Communication Design. According to her findings, Sustainable Graphic Design can only be achieved through close collaboration of the design, print, paper technology, and IT sectors, and she made an effort to work in all four of them, to gain a deeper understanding of their point of view and pain points. An M.Sc. in Environmental Sciences at Trinity College Dublin led her to undergo research in environmentally friendly paper sizing options – paper sizing is the process of coating paper with starch and chemical ingredients to make it possible to print on it.
Lisa currently lectures a broad range of students in the Design faculty of Griffith College in Dublin, Ireland in the areas of web design, typography, communication design, and digital tools/software skills. But rather than just integrating sustainability principles in the existing modules she teaches, she is also developing a "Certificate in Sustainable Communication Design" program aimed at professionals.
Lisa is passionate about her dog Milo, gardening, learning, cold-water-swimming, and her new podcast "Conscious Communication Design" (available on iTunes, Spotify, etc). She also hosts workshops on Digital Environmentalism and wants to expand her network, so please get in touch!
On the web
Music in this episode
The musical guest is Kurt Bielema performing "Passing Phase".
Theme music by Casual Motive
Climate Design Assignments
At the end of each episode, we ask our guests what their ideal climate design project would be. They have four weeks with a class full of design students. We translated their response into a project brief that you can use for your class.
Get Assignments Follow Climify on IGEpisode Transcript
Eric: On this episode of Climify. I'm joined by Lisa Zimmerman. Lisa Zimmerman is a German, Irish design researcher and educator specializing in clarifying the profession of the communication designer. She currently lectures abroad at a broad range of students in the design faculty at Griffin college in Dublin, Ireland.
She specializes in the areas of web design, typography, communication, design, and digital tools and software. But rather than just integrating sustainability principles into the existing modules, she teaches, she's developing a certificate and sustainable communication design program aimed at. Professionals.
You can also find Lisa as host of the conscious communication design podcast, which is available on all regular podcast platforms. You can also learn more about Lisa on her website. Lisa zimmerman.com. That's lisazimmermann.com And on Twitter and Instagram @CCDByLisa.
[00:02:45] Eric: Glad to have you here. Lisa, we're excited that you, you're in Ireland and we're excited that you, despite the time zone difference, found the time in the day, to talk with us here on Climify, so I just wanted to start things off by, letting everyone know who you are and getting the basics, what you do and, where do you live?
[00:03:15] Lisa: Thanks, Eric. And thanks for having me. Um, I think, um, if I were to describe what I do around, I, I usually say I'm a design researcher and also educator. Um, so my background is in communication. Yeah. And I specialize in sustainable graphic and web design, which I kind of call a conscious communication design for myself.
But that's true too, like terminology mostly.
[00:03:43] Eric: Trademark that, right?
[00:03:44] Lisa: Yeah. Well, see, it's mostly due to sustainability having that like ambiguity, um, with, you know, often being interpreted as like a business term. And then I don't really like the term graphic design either because hardly anyone really works as just a graphic designer anymore. It's kind of like it's the, you know? The old term for a profession that doesn't really exist anymore.
Like nowadays you're not just a graphic designer. You are also. You know, UX or web designer or whatnot, like it's, that's why I prefer communication design as a term. But then in the end, when it comes to sustainable graphic design, this is kind of like a coined term that we can find online when we're looking for, you know, what, the thing that we do, like you and I.
So that's kind of why I need that term. And um, whenever I write or publish something online, I would always use, you know, sustainable graphic design, but I'm kind of trying to add web design to that as well. So sustainable web design, and it's kind of like, uh, another niche area, but there's more and more written about it as well.
And that's fine. It's, it's very important for us as well. Um, to consider the website of things because most graphic or communication designers are doing web-based products as well.
[00:05:02] Eric: And there's probably a lot of people. And I was in this category when I first was doing more UI /UX work, where I felt a lot better when I was doing it because I wasn't making these things that then, you know, we're headed probably to the landfill, but there's a lot more environmental impact with things that you make that are hosted on it.
[00:05:23] Lisa: Exactly, exactly. And we need to consider their impact as well. Um, there's something I heard recently is if you have a very, if you have very little impact or the product that you're producing or designing has very little impact, it impacts almost gets like, uh, accelerated by, um, you know it but let's say an email, for example, it's very low in, uh, in, in file size.
It's, what's, it's a couple of kilobytes. So, it is seemingly unimportant. If you think about, you know, storing an email, sending an email, keeping it in your inbox, not deleting it. Um, but then of course this adds up and because we're not considering it as much because it's such a little impact. Um, but that's why emails are dangerous.
Really.
[00:06:13] Eric: How many millions, billions of people have are doing that? Right? It's just
[00:06:17] Lisa: Yeah.
[00:06:18] Eric: not to leave them in an
[00:06:19] Lisa: And especially this year, I find with everything that we do online or the, like, for example, my lectures are being recorded online, whether I'm doing them in person or not, they have to be like recorded in a stored in a cloud. But I just kept thinking, God, it's like hundreds of hours of me talking in an online cloud.
And I haven't been warned by the system so far that any of those recordings have been deleted. So that must be. Hundreds of gigabytes at this stage of my online recordings and it's not just me. So yeah, it does make you, you know,
[00:06:53] Eric: Now what's the climate footprint, all the zoom classes we've been teaching?
[00:06:57] Lisa: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a tremendous amount of data that needs to be stored.
[00:07:04] Eric: So, I'm wondering then, you know, you, most folks that I've met that are doing what we're doing, and social and environmental justice in the design world, or even outside of the design world has had some sort of like an epiphany or something happened to them that caused them to get involved. So, I'm interested in how you got involved in sustainable design and sustainable design education.
[00:07:29] Lisa: Yeah, I love that question. And I'm sure you get some really interesting responses from other people there as well because it's something that is in the end, quite personal. I think whoever, uh, focuses on, uh, sustainability, uh, probably does it out of, you know, uh, yeah.
For, for personal reasons, mostly, uh, for most people I'd say, um, I think I've always been very good at questioning everything myself. Yeah.
Even when I was a kid questioning and not necessarily answering, but questioning was very good at that. Um, but myself, my own morals and beliefs, uh, but also my surroundings. So, um, I became vegetarian, I was 10 years old, for example, and then, uh, um, later on vegan then, but I think this kind of questioning nature has always been on my mind.
Um, I think the aha kind of moment must have been at the end of my undergrad studies. In communication design, when I did my first internship, I did the internship as a copywriter actually, and then a pretty standard ad agency type setup and, uh, realized in just the three months internship.
I mean, it had kind of dawned on me before that I might have actual issues working for certain clients, but this is where I realized, okay I can't. I can't actually do this job that I was made to do really. Like I dreamed all my life to be a graphic designer. It was like my big passion to design and to advertise as well, a lot of advertising as a thing itself, uh, communicating ideas and solving problems.
That's my greatest passion, but I realized, yeah.
[00:09:25] Eric: Yeah.
[00:09:26] Lisa: I can't work for most clients really because, uh, I wouldn't agree with what they produce or how they produce it. And even in this three-month internship, half of the projects that I had to do, I struggled myself with, um, even doing those. So basically, I was at the end of my, uh, my undergrad, my education, and, uh, I realized I can't actually execute this job that I was dreaming to do, you know?
[00:09:51] Eric: Lost at that point,
[00:09:53] Lisa: Sorry.
[00:09:54] Eric: I felt really lost at that point too.
[00:09:56] Lisa: Yeah. Did you have the same kind of experience?
[00:09:59] Eric: Uh, I mean, yeah, I would say so. I, I did work, um, in a number of different places where I just was like, yeah, like you. Uh, I just had a lot of ethical concerns about what was going on with what I was making. And I did work in some advertising for a while, and then it was completely inappropriate stuff and, and it wasn't even environmentally related.
It was just, you know, um, you know, body image type and, you know, let's, let's Photoshop this and get rid of that. And it's just, you know, I just had some issues. All that stuff. So
[00:10:41] Lisa: Yeah. I see you probably have the same experience though. In my education anyways, I don't remember having talked about that in classes, you know, like we actually had, we had a module which was very progressive, really. Um, it was called green design. Great lectures. We talked about kind of, it was kind of just touching though on, on the surface of, um, it wasn’t creating more like, he was introducing us to projects where you use sustainable biodegradable packaging or something like that. Um, in the end, I still think like it was progressive and it was great. Loved it, but it was very much just touching on the surface. I don't remember in any time during my education, having really had, you know, like debates about what should, what should we be doing as designers and what should we maybe refuse to do as well?
Should we question? And I think I, uh, kind of, I tried to introduce that at any point when I think my students should be questioning something, I kind of like encourage them to. Um, so when I do like, uh, what are some of my modules are, um, I'm teaching Photoshop skills too. Not just communication designers, but to fashion and interior designers as well.
So, they're like in the first year, and they're getting an intro to Photoshop, illustrator, and design from me. And whenever I do a class on like photo retouching, the fashion designers are obviously, oh my God, this is amazing. So cool. I can, you know, liquefy filter, and squeeze, and like, you know, those cheeks and make people skinny and eh, but yeah.
I, I tried to like, you know, introduce the thought off, eh, having them decide what is ethical to do with a person's image, you know, um, very, very interesting to have them.
I mean, I don't really have the room to really have a proper conversation about it, but I find that through practice, I can still encourage them to make up their own mind of what's. right and what's wrong.
[00:12:46] Eric: So, you were out after school in an internship for three months in advertising at your dream job and realized it was not what you thought it was, and you were very, um, shaken by it. What did you do after that then? Like how did you get into where you are now teaching? Like, I was wandering back to school at some point, but where did you say I need to get involved in, you know, environmental or social justice issues?
[00:13:20] Lisa: Yeah. Um, I had decided after my undergrad study is thank you to, to do a master's, um, and that's when I moved to move back to Ireland really as well, I'm originally from Germany. So, I did my undergrads in, uh, Berlin and then, uh, moved on to do a master's in design practice. Um, so very general, really.
And I hadn't really thought about, you know, what I was going to do in that masters yet. Um, but moving to Ireland then, um, it wasn't very loosely defined, masters. I started and they weren't like giving us too many, like directions. We were very open and like, what were we going to like to write about? And I'm focused on sustainable graphic design and figured for myself because I knew that.
The agency landscape in Germany, roughly from studying and internships and blah, blah, blah. Um, but it didn't really know the landscape in Ireland yet. So, I figured this is going to give me a good opportunity to get to know agencies, uh, potential employers, but also what sustainable graphic design is like in Ireland.
So that's what I wrote my first thesis on as called sustainable graphic design in practice. Um, blah, blah, blah. But I was like looking at the overall landscape. So, I interviewed, uh, Irish graphic designers or people who like working in that field on their views. I kind of like tapped onto, um, into, uh, their beliefs in their practices really and realized it's just, it's not really a thing yet.
Um, that's that was 2015. So, we have a little bit more going on now, but it's not that much. And definitely, it's not reached education. Yes. So, we don't have any modules or courses in that area. Yes. Um, it is. But, um, even after that thesis then, um, I had, you know, discovered it, this niche area for myself and I figured, okay, cool.
So, this is, this is what I'm about. This is what I researched, and I know more about, you know, the practice side of things, but I didn't know what to Do I didn't really want to work freelance. I didn't really want to work for an agency. So, I've been like puttering around. Yeah. And I didn't feel confident enough.
I'm like one of those typical cases of, um, people have like a great idea, but don't feel confident enough to actually go for it.
[00:15:57] Eric: Yeah.
[00:15:58] Lisa: I did another master’s then in environmental sciences, um,
[00:16:02] Eric: you have two masters’ now?
[00:16:04] Lisa: I'm doing my third one right now actually.
[00:16:07] Eric: You should feel very confident than with all those master's degrees
[00:16:10] Lisa: it took, it took me the three years to actually start going. I know it's ridiculous.
[00:16:16] Eric: no, it's not. I feel that way. I feel the same way about a lot of stuff that I do. And once you put it out there, you automatically say, oh shoot, why did I do…
[00:16:31] Lisa: I just wish for other people that they can, you know, kick-started a bit earlier when they have a great idea, because I wasn't ready for it. I always thought, oh, I don't know where the Irish market well enough. I haven't really worked as a graphic designer much except for freelance work. So, it didn't really know the, you know, the agency life.
And I still don't really. And that's why I didn't feel connected. Enough to engage with designers to say, hey, this is, you know, what we should be doing, because I was felt like, well, I'm not from this country and I'm not, uh, you know, I'm not actually like working as a graphic designer either. So, who am I to tell you what to do?
Like, you know, um, but I have to. Just finally overcome this. So yeah, then the masters. Yeah.
And environmental sciences. I did some research on paper, which is really fascinating. Um, so I looked at, um, paper sizing recipes. So, paper sizing is the, uh, method of. Uh, treating pulp or like paper.
And so, to make it printable, there are chemicals involved in that. And, uh, I looked at those and thought that was fascinating, which also made me realize though, you know, one of the big issues is a lack of collaboration between industries. Do you know how, um, I think in interior design, fashion design, sustainability is Yeah, or in other areas of design really is sustainability is ingrained in the whole process like certifications and labels and stuff like that? We don't really have that for graphical communication design. Not yet. No, not yet. Not really. Um, and I find it's also because. Been this eternal miscommunication between designers and printers, for example, who has always like, not like each other.
And don't really like to talk about stuff, but, um, you know, talking about print processes and, and, uh, uh, how to set up documents properly to avoid like, uh, to avoid paper waste, um,
[00:18:42] Eric: these are the little fundamentals, you know, the overlooked things that you don't learn in design school. I had to…
[00:18:50] Lisa: Right. Yeah.
[00:18:51] Eric: …get, I did get yelled at, by a printer. And in my, one of my first jobs, you know, sent over a Pantone color, and didn't tell him about it. And, uh, you know, that caused a huge accident.
[00:19:04] Lisa: Oh,
[00:19:05] Eric: I didn't learn any of that stuff in school, but…
[00:19:08] Lisa: …printers always hate us and I have full understanding for it because no one teaches you properly in, in, um, how to set up your documents.
[00:19:20] Eric: there's so much to teach. That's one of the things
[00:19:22] Lisa: Yeah, but it also has to be like a, it has to be a constant learning curve as well.
[00:19:28] Eric: Oh, yeah.
[00:19:29] Lisa: …we have to just collaborate better. And then the same goes with paper technology.
I find that's the printers usually don't know anything about the paper that they're using. Um, and what's involved in the process, or when is my paper? Like how much, can I print on it and do with it until it becomes, not recyclable anymore? Like that's stuff that, you know.
We still have to learn about and it
[00:19:53] Eric: Oh, yeah. And I work with paper too. And I ask students, you know, where does your paper come from? And they have no… they don’t know that much, but…
[00:20:03] Lisa: Yeah.
[00:20:04] Eric: …does it come from? And, uh, and especially in North America, it's a couple of places and it might be the same in Ireland. Where does all the paper come from?
And that's a good question.
[00:20:15] Lisa: Yeah, yeah. That is a good question. Uh, well, all our paper really comes from abroad. Um, I don't think, I didn't find any paper manufacturing in Ireland, uh, in the past research, but yeah, that is a good point. And that's what is so interesting in Ireland as well that, um, you know, we are a small island, eh, obviously everything has to be imported, so.
[00:20:36] Eric: right?
[00:20:36] Lisa: When you're looking at, you know, using sustainable graphic design books, resources, most of them are written in, uh, in the States. Some may be in Europe, but then half of that, isn't usable for OCR and RN because general, you kind of have to consider the whole life cycle of the whole, of the product and if I'm using recycled paper, that comes from further than an FSC certified paper. That's from closer, you know, comes from DOK. And now with Brexit, it's all like a total messed up in many ways, but yeah, because we don't, yeah. we have to figure out where our stuff comes from. But…
[00:21:19] Eric: …another podcast right there. Right?
[00:21:21] Lisa: Um, yeah, I kind of was wondering about this stuff when thinking of, uh, you know, choosing sustainable printers, uh, which is often like, you know, mentioned as one go-to kind of method for systemic graphic design, you know, pick your one good printer eco-friendly printer that prints with soy inks and, um, use recycled papers or certified papers.
And I couldn't find any. So, what do, what do I, what we have, I found one now, but, um, I still wonder what do I even recommend? You know, if I do a talk over, have a conversation with either students or designers do say, um, she was a sustainable printer, but then that would be in the UK. So, you would have to get that shipped over here.
[00:22:10] Eric: Right.
[00:22:11] Lisa: be very sustainable or do you talk to your local printer and see what you can do with them? And it might be not soy-based inks, but at least you can work with, you know, the process of the papers. Yeah. I don't know. This is all, yeah. It's very difficult to make those decisions.
[00:22:29] Eric: Yeah. Yeah. And you've mentioned, sustainable graphic design, many times or sustainable design. And I'm curious, you know, since you have to work on your third, master's now, like how do you define it? And, and, um, are we getting close to it yet?
[00:22:44] Lisa: Great question. Yeah. Um, I define it for myself, sustainable design in general, as I'm looking at the whole life cycle of a product or service of anything that we produce and looking at each individual step and trying to optimize it. So, each individual step within their life cycle. How can we optimize it, how can, we reduce the environmental footprint of everything that's involved?
So that's kind of why we can't ever reach, you know, sustainability. I mean, you know, it's always about the reduction of the impact, cause we're always going to have an impact. So even if I, even if I managed to produce something that is, uh, not being down cycle, but, you know, doesn't lose in value when it's being, when it's staying in the cycle, basically, even then I'm using resources and we're talking a lot about carbon neutrality and neutral.
What is that word?
Being, being carbon neutral, being carbon neutral, which for a lot of companies means offsetting. Do you know? Does that actually mean being neutral? Not really.
[00:24:01] Eric: Not really. No
[00:24:02] Lisa: to me, it's like, it's like, uh, I'm still sitting. And then I go to confession and, you know, to say it in traditional Irish Catholic
[00:24:11] Eric: Confession.
[00:24:12] Lisa: right.
It's like, yeah, so you, so you sin, then you confess and then you're forgiven and Okay.
So that's kind of what I don't know to me, that's what, um, offsetting means in the end. I mean, of course, it's kind of, it's better than not doing anything, but is that solving the issue? So, we're always having an impact, um, but we need to work on reducing that.
So, we can't ever have the perfect sustainable product, whether that's a service or, you know, in communication design, it would be like a web or print product most of the time. Um, or, um, any tool of communication, really.
[00:24:51] Eric: Lisa, let's take a quick break for some commercial messages.
[00:27:20] Eric: I wonder that you know that because I know when I was involved with finding out about sustainable design and maybe you as well, I looked at it as like, okay, we need to do this. This makes sense. And we need to minimize our impact. And now I'm a design educator. I'm older and you are too. And there's this thing called the climate crisis.
And that for me, really jumpstarted the. You're like, I need to do more. Right. You know, uh, there's a, there's a clock that's ticking. And so, I'm wondering for you, like you're a design educator, you're a designer. What do you think designers and design educators can do best to help fight, uh, the climate crisis draws down those emissions?
[00:28:19] Lisa: Um, I think every single person on the planet has, you know, has to be aware of their responsibilities, but. A designer graphic designer specifically should be aware of. There is because we have a lot of influence. Like our job is literally to influence consumer behavior that is kind of, you know, what we do.
And so, we need to be really aware of that responsibility and, uh, whatever we do with that responsibility. So, we have to ask ourselves, you know, which w what is it. Ethical and what isn't and when it comes to what isn't, you know, what can I do about it? Um, I think that's, uh, that's kind of the main thing.
Um, as an educator, I'm trying to have my students be aware of that, of the influence that they're having, that there, the impact that their job is going have. So that they can build their own ethical framework. Hopefully, that's kind of, I think the ultimate goal is that students learn to decide for themselves what's right.
And what's wrong. And I do have a bit of hope there that, um, I find the new Generation Z that's coming up there, you know, the Friday for future guys. They're, they're amazing. And that they're. Raising their voices about stuff that we've all been, you know, screwing up for them. Um, and I think I have high hopes that they are going to be a generation that enters the workforce saying I'm not going to do that.
You know, like as in, you're giving me a task and I'm not agreeing with it. And I'm just saying, no, I think so far, we've all been, I think, eh, with. Generation Y is kind of like started to question this a little bit, you know, and like started wanting to have like a different work-life balance and questioning work hours and work ethics.
But I'm hoping that with, you know, that we're getting to a stage where we're all questioning, whether what we do for a living. It's like the right thing to do and not just what we do for a living as a job itself, we all need to do our jobs like, but, um, in practice, I think that means also saying no to a client or educating them.
And that's kind of part of sustainable design. I think that, uh, If a client is completely disagreeing in principle with my beliefs, I might be better off seeing no one. I'm not going to work with them. I'd rather focus on someone else. And I know that's a very bold statement. Um, I used to be very wary of, of seeing this, but thankfully there's more, uh, sustainable designers popping up and they're, they're saying the same thing that we need to, you know, um, make mixed selections as well with who we work with.
Um, and even if we don't want to do that, where, you know, we see potential with the client in, in maybe shaping the way we can communicate for and with them that maybe we can, you know, like I don't have to, she was, if I work as a designer in an agency, I don't necessarily have to say, okay.
I'm only working with, you know, XYZ clients now, which would be very limited.
But we maybe with some, I could say, okay.
do you know the idea for this ad campaign is not really, you know, what we can, what we should be doing, or if you have any concerns, we raise them and just say, you know, it's, not the right thing to do? So, steering them into the better correct direction of that.
[00:32:13] Eric: Yeah, you're going to have to know a lot before you get there. Right?
[00:32:17] Lisa: Yes.
[00:32:18] Eric: that's our job as educators, right. To help them, our students, get there. How do you, how do you help your students? I think there's kind of a two-part question for me cause, uh, I think there's, there's a couple of components here.
I think the first part is like, how do you get your students to that information? Right. As an educator, I know you said there's not a class in Ireland about this, but you can kind of do that in other ways. Um, and too, I think, and a lot of us as educators I've experienced, you know, Gen-Z and all the stuff that they're going through. How do you get them from a mental health perspective to not just be apathetic and sit back and you know, not do anything, you know? So that's why I think it's a two-part question, get them the information and how do you, how do you handle like the mental health side of it?
[00:33:16] Lisa: yeah. that's, that's a good one. It is tough. Um, I've been doing like a heavy load kind of project with, my very small communication design class last year. And had some of them really struggle with, like, they were able to decide themselves in the project, which, uh, the ethical dilemma they wanted to tackle basically.
Um, so they chose. Well, all the topics were very, um, heavy from like mental health too, um, uh, voter suppression and to violence against women. So, they all had like very like heavy topics and some of them got like personally yeah, very personally involved. And you could see them like getting worst stage every week, you know, it was, uh, yeah.
Difficult.
[00:34:09] Eric: yeah.
[00:34:10] Lisa: Yeah. It is a very important question. That's true. Um, I think so going back to the first part of your question when you're giving them the information, um, it's definitely something that I'm like in, uh, there's two sides to it. I think, uh, you can like all of us that are involved, in this trying to make our profession more sustainable.
You know, uh, reducing our environmental footprint or raising awareness, we can create communication ourselves. Um, we create, you know, work on the curriculum, and include it that way. So, I'm working on my own course right now; a certificate course in sustainable graphic and web design that I'm looking to propose to colleges, uh, that would be aimed at professionals though, as an add on, uh, uh, after, you know, either having worked in the industry already or directly after their undergrads.
And, um, so, you know, designing an online course could be, could be a way to go, but also, you know, we can, we can use are, um, besides our regular teaching, any other means of communication, it seemed the most sustainable graphic design courses I've seen popup were like privately organized. So, there is, um, A little Fox design in Canada.
There's a Domestica course. There's a LinkedIn course in design. And then I think there's one other Australian one. So, they're all like, uh, privately organized to not through an Institute of higher education institution.
[00:35:50] Eric: with that.
[00:35:51] Lisa: Like to know, but, um, it's, it's still like, it's, it's a trend. Definitely. I think.
And they might be easier to clean Sue me, you know, most of those are like overall it's like video footage of like two to three hours. Um, so maybe that's, you know, easier, more palatable to people, easier to digest. Um, you don't have to commit to like a whole, you know, whole certificate courses.
[00:36:16] Eric: Yeah. Well, I also think it's back to what you were saying a little earlier is that you have to teach these students so many things on an undergrad level with printers and, um, basic fundamentals and then advanced techniques are that you run out of time. Right? And I see a lot of sustainable design courses at the grad level more. So, and maybe that's one of the reasons why are not enough people, not enough people can teach it.
[00:36:44] Lisa: True. Yes. There are not enough people that can teach it. That's for sure. Um, and it takes a long time to change. The curriculum often existed in existing chorus and undergrad courses, isn't it?
[00:36:58] Eric: A lot of red tape. I, I went through this, and it took like, I, I can't even tell you how many years, like three years.
[00:37:06] Lisa: Oh, wow. Amazing. What you managed to change the curriculum of your work.
[00:37:12] Eric: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:37:13] Lisa: and integrate sustainability.
[00:37:14] Eric: All the people who taught there to do it.
[00:37:17] Lisa: Amazing. That's fantastic.
[00:37:19] Eric: a success story, but
[00:37:20] Lisa: That is a huge accomplishment.
[00:37:23] Eric: I don't hear enough of those success stories. That's the, that's the problem.
[00:37:27] Lisa: Yeah.
So, in the college where I currently teach, um, the communication design course, it's like a three-year course, so it's very new still.
Um, so it's also for me is like a relatively new, like I'm in my third year of teaching now still wanting to be new to teaching, you know, where do I start? Like integrating those. But I have been asked to like, you know, eh, uh, look over existing modules and I can integrate stuff. So. And teaching the typography module, for example.
So, integrating, um, concerns around accessibility and diversity, um, into the curriculum, wherever I can, I would, you know, drop those things in. So, when I got a chance to, uh, revise modules, you know, like giving my input there. And even if you can't as an educator, if you don't get the chance to modify that you can still in existing projects where you can write your brief specifically.
So, they include, you know, something. Um, so if I have them do a product design or would use, you know, uh, specifically brands that already are in that area. Or making something more sustainable. Um, but I find it even more important because I noticed, I think, you know, the first year with my students, I did a lot of.
They kind of figure it out very early on. That was kind of my direction. You know, I had to do like a recycling bin labeled project, for example, and they, sometimes it felt a bit like they're doing it for me or they're doing it just because, well, it's how I chose the brief. Um, but. I try to kind of sprinkle it in with regular briefs as well, and kind of make them question their own thoughts or medium as well.
So, if we're seeing, I mean, good communication. Would generally be more sustainable and you know, like it does go hand in hand very often. Like, um, even if you advertise for your, uh, local takeaway, would they're printing out brochures and distributing them to thousands of, or hundreds of households, um, would that be the best means of communication, or would online ads be more successful, like always considering, you know, which medium would be the best platform so that we're not wasting resources and it doesn't, it's not really print versus web. It is an overall consideration of what's the best means of communication.
[00:40:16] Eric: Yeah, for sure. I think your advice to educators, who don't have the sustainable design class, but to sprinkle it in, as you said is perfect. I experienced that when I first started teaching too. I called it… I wanted to give the students the soup, but I couldn't give them the soup. So, I had to put vegetables and all their little classes.
So, they, they got, they got it
[00:40:39] Lisa: It's a nice metaphor. Yeah.
[00:40:42] Eric: Yeah. The few times that you are frustrated about the lack of classes, especially in Ireland, especially in your school. So, I'm giving you the opportunity here. Creating a dream design course. Maybe it's a project curriculum. However, you want to frame it on sustainable design on, you know, the planet and the climate crisis.
What would you create? What would it be? And it could be as big as you know, don't worry about money. Don't worry about bureaucracy, but what, what would you, what would you want to create?
[00:41:17] Lisa: Yeah, it's good. It's a difficult question.
When you tried to prepare for this course, I've thought about it, you know? Especially because I am currently creating a course myself. So, it made me wonder, is this my dream course? I mean, it should be obvious, but it's, um, it's, it's also considerations of, you know, what's feasible and what makes sense.
And I'm still. I still have to like, figure that out. Most, mostly, really is my, is my market even there, you know, so what I'm currently designing is a certificate course in sustainable graphic and web design. I'm envisioning a three-module certificate. Um, so we would have one module for general business practice.
One based around printing and one based around, uh, web products, uh, or web design. Um, and this would be aimed at professionals. But of course, when we talk about, you know, changing the curriculum of, uh, for undergrad courses, that's really what it should be like they would, they ultimately, there shouldn't be a need for a certificate course, like the one I'm designing right now, because it should be part of all the undergrad courses already,
[00:42:36] Eric: Yes.
[00:42:38] Lisa: but we need to get there somehow.
Like, there are only very, very few people in Ireland that I know that are, you know, even concern themselves with sustainable graphic design, um, very few people. So, we don't even, we wouldn't even have the educators for a course, really. Um, so we need to educate all of us, suppose, but it's, it's difficult.
Isn't it? I don't know how you do it. Like, how do you talk if you, you, if you're in the street and you meet like your box standards, I do know, sounds awful now, but like a regular graphic designer? How, how do you tell them what you do or focus on without sounding demeaning or, you know, like they are doing something wrong.
[00:43:28] Eric: Oh gosh. So, you're flipping the table there. Okay.
[00:43:30] Lisa: Sorry,
[00:43:31] Eric: Yeah, no, it's fine.
[00:43:32] Lisa: I don't have, see That's what I mean. I'm good at asking questions. Not so good at answering.
[00:43:36] Eric: That's a great question. You know, I'm, I'm, um, I'm, I'm even terrible at explaining before I was doing this. Like what I did as a, as a designer, you know, I remember telling people like, I'm a designer. I do, you know, graphic design or I do digital work and they would always ask if I was a fashion designer or, you know, furniture.
And so. When I've. So, when I give, so when I get into that point, you know, I'm talking to other graphic designers about it. I do feel like you said, I do feel like I'm talking down
[00:44:11] Lisa: Hmm.
[00:44:11] Eric: I don't, I don't like that feeling because it makes me, you know, and I'm sort of elevating what I do. You know? Like, why haven't you guys thought about this?
Why are you still, and so the few times where I have been asked that question, um, let me think, um, Geez. I think, I think I was just sort of saying to them, like, um, I really consider, you know, the environmental and social impacts of the things that I make. It really is concerning to me. And I usually don't get many follow-up questions after that.
So, I don't know if it would. Good or they just were like, I don't know what she means, and I don't really want to talk about it anymore. That's a really good question. I, how about, do you have a better answer than I hope you do because mine
[00:45:03] Lisa: Um, not really, but I think that's, what's been holding me back the whole time in like getting out there and getting my knowledge out there. Um, is that. I didn't feel confident enough to stand there and teach people who are doing their job for God knows how long, longer than me anyways. Cause I didn't really practice it that much.
Um, and telling them what to do that can't really be the answer. But I think, um, I'm getting there now because I realize it has to be a conversation that always has to remain a conversation and an iteration process anyways. So, I can only get more knowledgeable on how to approach them if like start talking to them and
[00:45:47] Eric: Yeah.
[00:45:48] Lisa: have to start.
Doing workshops with people and maybe calling them workshops rather than talks or presentations. And so that it becomes clear that it's a, it's a two-way thing. You know, it's not me telling them what to do, but rather me questioning with them on what we can, how we can do a better.
[00:46:06] Eric: Well, you do ask good questions. So that would be, yeah.
[00:46:09] Lisa: Thank you. But I think that's, that's kind of, all I can recommend as well is like constantly asking ourselves.
Like, is it right? What I'm doing or is there a better way of doing it? And that's all we can do. Really. There's never a good, perfect answer. A solution to anything.
[00:46:27] Eric: I mean, I think the first two people I've interviewed on this podcast are climate scientists. The question to them was, you know, what can we do to stop our climate crisis?
[00:46:42] Lisa: Hmm.
[00:46:43] Eric: their number one answer was she got to talk about it. Both of them said this, you need to talk about it and then reflect upon it.
Right? And so that's where that's the two-way dialogue you're talking about. It's not just you lecture like empty vessels and they, and they learn everything from you. It's, it's a back and forth.
[00:47:03] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. That's very true.
[00:47:05] Eric: We're coming up on time here. I wanted to give you a moment to since most of our audiences are design educators as a design educator, yourself, what kind of advice would you give to another design educator? Or just in general, if they're interested in this topic, how should they get started on it and how could they learn more so that.
We can change this issue of all these, you know, non-sustainable design classes or it's just as a bedrock foundation of what we do in
[00:47:38] Lisa: Yeah. Um, Hmm.
[00:47:46] Eric: How do we change the world, Lisa, please give us.
[00:47:49] Lisa: Yeah, let's start. So, number one. oh, okay.
I think the most important thing is that, that we are aware of our responsibility as educators. Um, which is a big one and can be very frustrating to think about it because it's, it's a massive responsibility, but in the same way, making our students aware of the responsibility, the whole world, like, they're not Okay.
So, I'm silly when I say that now, but it's not like they're not just learning a profession. It's more like you're going to be communicators and they need to decide on what they want to communicate, um, and figure out for themselves, you know, what's important to them and whatnot, what isn't. Yeah.
So, I think, yeah, making them aware of their responsibility, that's the one thing, and that's what we can do.
Like every single day in every class, you know, pointing out why something is important. That's part of teaching anyways. Um, but why. Why they should care as force about, uh, about certain issues and how it ties in with or a future job? Um, that's probably, that's, that's one thing. Yeah, And apart from that, whether my colleagues that are listening to this, um, are designing their own courses, which would be great, whether they’re integrating it into the existing curriculum by.
Maybe focusing the next brief on something in that direction, or even phrasing the brief so that students have to ask themselves certain quests. That can be one thing. Uh, even if you work with existing briefs, you can focus your attention towards a questioning kind of, of, um, inquiry, which is, you know, part of problem-solving anyways.
Um, but directing them, I suppose, into, uh, sustainable or environmental considerations and. Apart from that, we need to all kind of organize ourselves a bit better.
I think the Climate Designer’s platform is, is a really good start and. I kind of hate that there aren't really enough people in Europe, uh, joined up there yet.
So, if there are any Europeans listening to this, please join the chime and designers because that's, you know, that's what we need. Not necessarily this one platform, but it's. What we can, we can use social media, we can use whatever, but we need to connect all design educators. We need to connect, uh, and not just in the, in the standards kind of conference national level.
Um, but internationally, uh, because we can learn from each other on how we can change how design has been taught. Like we're in a massive kind of a curveball right now on how design is changing. Um, especially communication design changing so much because there's more that's being asked of us of the professional of the job.
Then a couple of decades ago, like it's, it's constantly evolving, and sustainability has to be part of it. So, we need to figure out how we can integrate it and maybe, maybe figure out how we can change the curriculum in general, a little bit quicker. I'm still very new to the education system, but it is a bit frustrating when you're coming from when you're used to. I didn't know, even working in corporations, you know, where policies can be changed quite quickly actually, but then you, then you enter the education sector and you're like, oh yes, this is the norm for the next four or five years. And then we can like, kind of talk about it, you know? And it's, it's, it's very frustrating.
[00:51:57] Eric: I laugh but I’m crying inside when I hear it.
[00:52:01] Lisa: Yeah. And I still have to like figure out how all of that works, but I would wish that you know, we would, we were doing more like, uh, even within my college where there would be like more round table discussions on how we can change things
[00:52:21] Eric: Yeah.
[00:52:21] Lisa: keep them up to date.
[00:52:23] Eric: Yeah, I a hundred percent agree with you. We need that stronger community and the things that I learned about teaching sustainable design weren’t only not just my ideas. They were ones that I talked and learned with other people, you know like it's the way that we build it up. You know, it's
[00:52:42] Lisa: Yeah.
[00:52:43] Eric: not one person doing it all.
[00:52:46] Lisa: Yeah.
[00:52:46] Eric: a heroes game here where we all need to be individual heroes.
[00:52:52] Lisa: Yeah. That's very true. Yeah.
[00:52:55] Eric: Well, Lisa, thanks so much for
[00:52:57] Lisa: Thank you, Eric. This was a great conversation.
[00:53:01] Eric: It was, it felt like I could go on a little bit longer, but, uh, trying to keep it to 45 minutes, but, definitely, thank you so much. And, it was great having you.
[00:53:11] Lisa: Thank you. Eric. It was fantastic to talk to you.