Episode 4 – Katharine Poole
Katharine Poole joins Eric to share how her skillsets as both a climate scientist and a brand designer are a perfect combination to craft better and more informed communication strategies for organizations and campaigns. She also explains why designers should reach out to climate scientists to collaborate as climate change needs a rebrand.
Listen to this episode on: Spotify, Apple, Google and other places you get your podcastsAbout our guest
Katharine Poole is a Climate Change Specialist and Designer with a Master's in Climate and Society from Columbia University. Most recently, she led the brand design for Twitter and climate journalist Eric Holthaus’ new local weather service, “Currently”. She’s focused on giving climate change the rebrand it deserves by integrating climate action with design.
On the web
katharinepoole.me
Ttwitter.com/katharinepoole
Music in this episode
The musical guest is Alexander Roman from the band Free Paintings performing "She's Got Me Riding" from the album Free Paintings for Sale.
Theme music by Casual Motive
Climate Design Assignments
At the end of each episode, we ask our guests what their ideal climate design project would be. They have four weeks with a class full of design students. We translated their response into a project brief that you can use for your class.
Get Assignments Follow Climify on IGEpisode Transcript
[00:00:57] Eric: Welcome to Climify I'm Eric Benson, and I'll be your host this season as we talk to climate experts from all over the world. To help us design educators fight the climate crisis in our classrooms. And yes, I'm also a design educator. I've been teaching for 15 years here at the University of Illinois.
[00:01:21] Eric: But even if you're not a design educator, listening to this show, there’s so much useful information jam packed in each. That you too can learn how to do your part to help reduce our greenhouse gas emissions.
Today, I'm excited to have on the program. Katherine Poole. Katherine Poole is a climate change specialist and designer with a Master's in climate and society from Columbia University. Most recently she lived the brand design for Twitter and climate journalist, Eric Holthaus', new local weather service called Currently.
She's focused on giving climate change. The rebrand it deserves by integrating climate action. With design. You can follow Katherine on Twitter at Katherinepoole. That's K AT H A R I N E P O O L E. And you can find her online at Katherinepoole. Me.
Katherine, it's wonderful to meet you. I'm glad that you're here. And so, let's get started really with the basics, you know, who are you, what do you do? And, and where do you do it?
[00:02:32] Katharine: I'm a climate change specialist and designer. I have a master's from the Climate and Society Program at Columbia University, where I studied. The intersection of climate and how it impacts the people, places and things that we all care about. Um, currently I'm specializing in brand design and content creation, some communication strategy for climate related organizations and campaigns.
Previous to that, uh, I was teaching climate mitigation and adaptation at Clinton University and also at a climate education nonprofit. And most recently and currently working with Twitter and climate journalists, Eric Holthaus', doing brand design for his new collaborative weather service called Currently.
[00:03:24] Eric: You're the perfect guest, because you know, both things that were, we wanted to talk about today, climate and design. And so how did you get involved in design then? Um, and how are you, uh, navigating working in both, both fields, kind of at the same time?
[00:03:44] Katharine: I got into design because I felt that the issue with climate change was more of a messaging issue than a scientific issue. And the only way to really communicate that is to have visuals and assets and campaigns. That really emphasize not only the human aspect of climate change, but. The scale and severity.
I think oftentimes we don't talk about climate. It's kind of a, a silent issue. Uh, that's changed in the past few years due to, you know, youth climate movements and more serious politicians that are trying to focus on it a little bit more. Um, but yeah, that, that's how I got into design. I'm pretty self-taught.
I love YouTube. I love taking design courses. Um, I love learning from other people. And in grad school we touched a lot on design thinking, and I think that was a big influence into me recognizing that that was a big way to solve climate changes, to kind of use design wisely and respectfully in a way that works with communities, but also, you know, really does a powerful job at advertising the issue in what we need to do.
[00:05:08] Eric: Yeah. So, you said it's a communication issue. So how do you think, um, design can, can help fix that communication issue?
[00:05:16] Katharine: I think climate change needs a rebrand. I think that's really the key here. Um, climate change is pretty in my opinion, uh, elitist sometimes and has a little bit of an issue where climate scientists are oftentimes talking to themselves. And there are a lot of wonderful climate communicators that's for sure.
But I think that for the most part, you know, people aren't reading academic texts, they're not reading the IPC report. They are looking online. They're looking at social media, they're looking at the companies they follow and. Uh, consume from, to kind of reflect what's going on. They're looking at meteorologist when the weather gets crazy.
Um, and there are so few meteorologists that are making that clear connection and explicit connection between climate and weather. Um, so I think it's just not integrated necessarily into our communication structures. And you can see that, you know, based on. The failure sometimes of, uh, international climate negotiations, as well as the, the lack of climate questions.
It almost like every year, you know, presidential debate, uh, mayoral debate. And, you know, this is something that's going to impact everybody, uh, whether they like it or not. And I think it's a lot easier to not talk about it, but it's also almost disrespectful not to talk about it, right. When people are already dealing.
With climate change. Currently, there are a lot of people who are bearing the brunt of climate change first, and they're not necessarily in the global north, but I think the global north has obviously, you know, super complicit and responsible for the situation that we find ourselves in. So, it's important to keep talking about it and, and listen to not only the youth who are doing a great job. Advocating for a livable, but also the, the people who are being impacted right now, I think they're often ignored, and climate change is viewed as a, a later issue or a future problem, but it has been a problem. It is a problem and will continue to get worse unless we start really taking it more seriously and communicate.
[00:07:44] Eric: Yeah, I love that idea of the rebrand and that's something where…
[00:07:49] Katharine: We're trying.
[00:07:50] Eric: Yeah. So, yeah, they kind of leads me to my next question for you is that, I'm really interested in how you got involved in all of your environmental justice and climate work, everyone that I've talked to, um, on this program and then out in the world that is involved with social justice, environmental justice issues had something that, you know, stirred them or some epiphany or something that they couldn't unsee. And I'm wondering how you got interested in this and, and why.
[00:08:26] Katharine: I don't think climate change was really ever on my radar until I lived in New Orleans. And, um, in Louisiana they're geographically very vulnerable to climate change. Right. So. That really reinforced the urgency of mitigating and adapting to climate change. Um, just by living there, you know, I, I constantly encountered reminders of destruction and unpreparedness from city officials, um, from environmental disasters that really tested the resilience of the city and are kind of a perfect example of what will happen to other cities as well.
Um, I think probably the, the, the real factor in me getting interested in climate change was, uh, taking a climate science course and listening to my professor, uh, at Tulane advocate for immediate action. While I was very aware that I was sitting in a classroom, I was probably going to be underwater during my lifetime.
Um, it was jarring and pretty traumatic to be honest, but it was also motivating because I felt. I almost had more of a purpose by understanding the severity of the situation. And, you know, I learned a lot about the historical and current environmental injustice issues in Louisiana of which there are too many and got an understanding of how it mentally and emotionally, physically, and socially impacted.
Right. Um, when you live there, it's pretty hard not to feel terrified during hurricane season.
[00:10:06] Eric: Hm.
[00:10:07] Katharine: Um, there's a lot of, yeah. Underlying anxiety, even when it rains, it floods, um, you know, people lose their cars every time it rains and have real issues that aren't necessarily attributed to climate but are impacted by climate.
And I was lucky enough to witness firsthand all the land loss and cultural loss that we've had through the protective wetlands disappearing at extraordinary speeds. that's because of decades of oil development. Um, and they have the oil and gas industry has a pretty big hold on the state. So, it was really interesting to see the political dynamics and the climate dynamics that were influencing it.
Um, and I think that just residing in a city with a lot to lose, um, not only solidified my interest in studying climate change, but yeah. Really made me understand the urgency in a way that I don't know I could have if I hadn't personally experienced it, which I think is the case with a lot of people right there, it's easy to ignore climate unless you see it, how it impacts the places you love, the people you love and yourself selfishly.
Um, it's really. Kind of amazing to get that experience. And you know, there wasn't a lot of climate education opportunities while I was at Tulane but yeah. I really felt unsatisfied when I was about to graduate with my education in it. And there's a lot to learn online. You can definitely get a pretty good climate science and climate policy education for free online, but I felt that I needed some more formal education and climate physics and coding and trying to figure out how to really understand climate.
In almost every aspect and get it interdisciplinary and education. So, I ended up applying to the program at Columbia, thankfully got accepted and, uh, here we are now.
[00:12:17] Eric: So that one lecture was this like moment where you said I have to do something, this, this is immediate danger and I'm wondering. From the climate communication perspective, what did the professor do? How did he communicate this? Or she, I didn't catch what you said, but, um, uh, yeah. How did, how did he, um, grab you by your heartstrings or whatever, whatever it was to get you so motivated, what did they do?
[00:12:51] Katharine: I think he was just honest. And I think that was something I had never really encountered before. I think sometimes professors, um, not sugar coat, but maybe don't really show how, you know, the subjects they're teaching have really impacted them. Um, rather it's a little bit more sterile and, uh, analytical rather than emotional and yeah.
And I had never, in my life taken a climate science course, so it was really difficult, and I did pretty awfully for the first test or two, uh, and. Somehow, it just clicked. I think learning about it and hearing someone who definitely knows what they're talking about, tell you what's going on in a way that you haven't heard that before is really powerful.
And there was always a lot of humor integrated into discussions, right? Like it was a traumatic class for sure, in the truest sense of the word, but it also was nice too. Laugh and to try to figure out what the solutions are. Um, I think there was just a lot of creative freedom, even though it was a science class.
We didn't always focus on the science. Right. We focused on the human aspect and, um, and then also just being available to students. I think the fact that even after I failed the first test or two, um, That the professor didn't really give up on my interest and kind of took my interest seriously, even though I was very much struggling with trying to figure out physics when I had never done that before, uh, was really motivating and encouraging and, and, you know, treating people with respect and, you know, like they have what it takes to succeed, even if it's not evident at the.
[00:14:44] Eric: As an educator, that's something that, um, we're supposed to do where not all of us do it, but we're…
[00:14:51] Katharine: Yeah, exactly.
[00:14:53] Eric: we're supposed to be there too. Help the student, no matter what level. Right. Um, you also said something there, which I thought was, um, so true, which is that just humanity in general, right?
Doesn't seem to, to act or to take things seriously until it happens to them, right? It's this like self-righteous ego and you know whether it be a health scare, whether it be an accident or climate change, you know?
Um, do you have any thoughts about how we as a society, we can change that, you know, psychology of don't wait until it happens to you, you know, put, you know, put your seatbelt on now and let's get bigger this out.
[00:15:46] Katharine: Yeah. Lucky enough in grad school to take a semester long writing workshops seminar with, uh, justice writer, Mary Hagar. And she was very focused on kind of demonstrating the power of a personal story and, you know, personal narratives. And I thought that was really interesting. I, she created a, basically like a 12-week list. Reading and it was all themed differently, but a lot of what I read was something I had just never heard of before. And I was, you know, really struggling with my grad program because it was emotionally very heavy to go into class every day and realize, oh, we have real issues. And having the smartest scientists in the world come at you and say, you know, we're.
We're not doing good and we're going to do a lot worse and feeling very helpless and powerless in that situation. So, it was nice to kind of go into a different environment where I could take what I learned about climate change and climate science and see how climate change really impacted people. And not only reading, you know, narratives from the past couple of years and seeing how the dialogue has shifted from, you know, silence to a more robust language and, uh, advancing that dialogue, but also going back and, you know, reading texts from James Baldwin and MLK and seeing that, even though they weren't explicitly talking about climate change in a lot of those texts, They were, and you could take what they said, you know, decades ago and shift a few words and modify a few things.
And you're, you're in 2021 you're in the century. Um, you're, you're really realizing that even though we've come a long way in many aspects, that we're still also in a lot of the same places that we've been before. And I think that gave me a lot of comfort, right? To know that people have been thinking this way.
Stuff for a while and have articulated. It was reassuring, but also frightening, right? Like if I could write like James Baldwin and not make a difference, what does that really say? I mean, not that he didn't make a difference, but you know, we're still in a big climate crisis, so it's tough. I think, you know, using the power of personal storytelling, respecting people's stories, listening to people's stories and.
[00:18:27] Eric: Yeah.
[00:18:28] Katharine: Kind of identifying yourself in those, you know, text was really a big, um, a big influence in not only me feeling more emotionally healthy when it comes to dealing with climate change, but also understanding why I was doing what I was doing and why it matters and how to better communicate.
[00:18:52] Eric: Yeah, that's personal storytelling is something that, um, definitely people who make visual designs or photography or videography. Be important part of it. And one of the other conversations I had, we talked about videography or filming what climate scientists actually do to tell that story of what's going on there.
Not just some, you know, making, what is, what is the, uh, some of the recent, uh, attacks on climate scientists that they're just rich living off grants, you know, like that, that, that isn't the reality. No,
[00:19:28] Katharine: I wish.
[00:19:29] Eric: Yeah. You said you felt pretty helpless. Like, um, I think that's common. Um, I, I feel that way a lot.
[00:19:38] Katharine: Yeah.
[00:19:39] Eric: Um, I try to push through that.
I try to find little pieces of hope, big pieces of hope, you know, that's even better. Um, what do you do or what do you recommend people do when? They're feeling that way. Right. And you know, what can they look to for, to move past that sense of helpless helplessness and to into action or, or something that, um, keeps them motivated?
[00:20:08] Katharine: Yeah.
It's really important to allow yourself to kind of go through the stages of grief and really be okay with that. I think you can really get stuck in the anger stage or the denial stage. Um, but once you're getting through that and past that you can kind of have more of an acceptance of the situation.
And I think that really frees up your, your mind to. Doing what you can. Um, there is a really good essay by my old professor, Kate Marvel, who is a climate scientist and a NASA research scientist. And she has an article about, you know, we need courage, not hope to face climate change. And the theory behind her argument is that climate change.
Definitely going to be bad that there's no way around getting, um, the physics of that mitigated. Right. Um, you know, it's a lot is locked in already and so many around the world, whether people realize it or not yet are dealing with the traumatic impacts of it. Um, but we need to continue to fight and work really hard, especially if you can.
Um, any amount of privilege in this world, uh, without the assurance of a happy ending, I think that's really something I've had to like to internalize. Like it may not work out and it's sad to, you know, live in a place like Louisiana and, and see, see the future almost when you're walking around and feeling that wow. That weight and heaviness around you, but it's worth it anyway, right? Like we need to do it. Um, and if you have the, you know, time and space to get involved and contribute whatever talents or perspectives you have, then you should, um, you know, it's not going to be pretty and it's going to be a really hard fight, but it's the only way to.
Do anything. So, I think, you know, really internalizing that thing and the notion that you're doing this because you need to, because you want to, um, and you don't need things to be perfect or you don't need, um, that reassurance of a happy ending to keep on going. I think that's really difficult but embracing that courage.
Ki. Um, so I encourage everyone to check out her article because she's much more
[00:22:54] Eric: Hey marble.
[00:22:55] Katharine: Uh, yeah, she is. She's a great climate communicator. Um, and I think that her perspective on that notion is spot on
[00:23:04] Eric: Well, we'll find it and we'll put it in our show notes for everyone.
[00:23:07] Katharine: lovely.
[00:23:08] Eric: So once, once I get through the seven stages of grief, Yeah, once everyone does. Um, uh, what do you think like the, the number one thing that just an ordinary person in the country should do to get involved or make an impact, make a positive impact?
[00:23:28] Katharine: I think the most important thing that needs to be done by everyday people to fight climate change is to talk about it. Katharine Hayhoe who is a climate scientist and professor at Texas Tech University has a wonderful Ted talk on that concept. And I, once again, encourage people to find that or watch that, uh, she basically says that, you know, climate.
Is often not talked about either because people don't feel like they are knowledgeable enough to talk about climate, or they don't want to talk about climate. And I think that's true, but you know, when it comes to feeling unqualified to talk about climate, like you are the expert of your own life and you know how climate has impacted you, even if you don't necessarily know the physics of how it's impacted you, you can know.
You know, the social aspects of how it's affected your life and the things you love and where you live. Um, so I think that.
[00:24:32] Eric: Okay.
[00:24:33] Katharine: It's important to break the silence on climate and kind of integrate it into all your conversations, even if, you know, if you're in a state where climate change, isn't really accepted talking about it as extreme weather or as justice issues is just as important as talking about, you know, the physical dynamics of climate.
So, I think really. Trying to figure out ways to talk to your Uber driver about climate change or talk to, you know, your friends or your family about climate does one. Because not only does it help you enhance your own communication skills and your own thinking about the topic, but also helps you empathize a lot more where, where people are coming from.
Um, and I think having that empathy and respect for people and how they think about the world, even if you very much disagree with how they think about it, can teach you a lot about how you need to be commuted, to be successful.
[00:25:34] Eric: We need conversation starters for our, you know, sitting on the plane next to someone or sitting in the coffee shop.
[00:25:42] Katharine: I can't say that you're going to make too many friends, but I think that, um, it could be a good experience. I meant for you to practice your effective communication skills, you know, your invites to parties may decrease, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. And then yeah.
[00:26:04] Eric: It's a needed.
[00:26:06] Katharine: Yeah.
I think another thing that's really key that I think is really overlooked as a climate solution is supporting and elevating women's voices. Um, that's a really big thing we can do to take on climate change and. You know, documented pretty well that women and girls are disproportionately impacted by the effects of climate, especially when it comes to disasters and, you know, having to take care of families.
Um, so I think that it's really key that we do what we can, where we're at to not only respect women and their voices, but also to provide or encourage that access to education. And, you know, in organizations. Promote women into leadership positions because, you know, I don't know if you've heard of project drawdown, but they say that,
[00:27:00] Eric: I was going to say that it's like one of the top two things.
[00:27:03] Katharine: It is one of the top things you can do. And even though, you know, people on an individual basis don't necessarily have right. The, the power to, you know, you know, make most of the boards of climate organizations. So women, I think that even in your own life kind of reflecting about how you respect people, um, as well as, uh, Encouraging the organizations or political structures that you are a member of, or you, you know, subscribe to, to really go all in on that climate change solution is a great thing that you can do with your privilege and also your free time.
[00:27:47] Eric: Okay. That's great. Cause you know, my next thought is like, our audience is mainly designed educators. We're pretty privileged.
[00:27:55] Katharine: Yeah.
[00:27:56] Eric: um, we, uh, we're doing something that we love to do. And, um, helping others and doing it. Uh, what do you, what role do you think we play in, in helping fight the climate crisis as a, as a design educator?
[00:28:11] Katharine: I think that, you know, not only do we need emissions reduction solutions to fight climate change, but we also really need education solutions, um, you know, educating and engaging. Children youth, adults and climate solutions and supporting their creativity, um, too. Implements and develop climate action projects in their own personal lives or in their schools or their community is really key.
And I think that also comes down to supporting the creativity of teachers and professors as well. Um, I think that teachers and administrators seem really eager in my opinion, to take up this challenge, but a common concern and hesitation that I've found is that. They need more training, and they need the relevant learning materials to do so.
And that's not often provided, I mean, you can be a kindergarten teacher and not have that, but you can also be a tenured university professor who doesn't have that support as well.
[00:29:12] Eric: Oh, my gosh. Yeah,
[00:29:15] Katharine: Yeah,
[00:29:15] Eric: true. I mean, it's kind of like educating the educators really on this.
[00:29:22] Katharine: I think that, you know, it's a big role for, you know, administrators. Because so many youth want to study climate, but they have very few universities or schools or programs to do so at. Uh, so I think that not only could it help admissions and retention for schools, but it also can really make a positive impact from a university.
And it's something that. Uh, a slam dunk PR wise to do so, as long as they're, you know, not also taking money from, you know, fossil fuel companies, et cetera, which is always an uphill battle. But I think that educators should really be encouraged to figure out how climate change will impact their field. Um, because chances are it most likely will and then figure out a plan to.
Integrate that into their teaching fully, um, and also be really opened to listening to what their students want um, what their hopes are and what their fears are, their concerns, and essentially just create that environment for them to feel empowered, to take action and not necessarily. Yeah. Traumatize them or, you know, um, make them feel scared, right?
Like I think that's a big thing that, you know, even climate scientists really do.
well. Right. They have a lot of their own fear, and they project that out onto their audiences. And I think that it's important for you, not only as an educator to kind of work through that fear and figure out, you know, I feel this way, but I'm not going to, you know, tell people how to feel.
Right. It's there. It's their right to feel the way they need to, to cope with something like this. And to instill that kind of fear just isn't helpful in my opinion. So, you know, trying to figure out ways to empower them and facilitate that learning and engagement is crucial for design educators to be.
[00:31:19] Eric: Yeah, I like that answer. I mean, I love that answer because that's hopefully what this podcast will be helping. Our design educator friends do is, is learn more about what they can do and how they can help. Um, And I also think your answer is, you know, very reminiscent to what you experienced in the class with your professor.
That honesty, I think is super important. That's something I'm taking away from this conversation is I've taught, um, climate ethics in a design class. And it was more about what the students felt and how
[00:31:54] Katharine: Yeah.
[00:31:55] Eric were working through it. And they were emotional about it. They were upset, but I never shared my own.
Um, beers and I think that's something I'll have to do going forward because, um, I think they want to hear from me based on what you're saying, that, that I need to be more honest about my fears and what I'm doing.
[00:32:17] Katharine: I think students really look up to professors and kind of use him as a bellwether for how they should be feeling about a certain topic or subject. And even though you could very much disagree with your professor and some students make, you know, write you a Massy course review saying
[00:32:31] Eric: Especially on grades.
[00:32:34] Katharine: Um, I think that it's worth to experiment with, right? Yeah. Even if it's one class like opening up about how you feel, or if you're presenting a lecture presentation, you know, including a slide or just an anecdote about why you think it's important to be doing this. Um, I think that's really interesting and something that students don't have access to a lot, like I said before, like subjects are very clinical and cold sometimes and that emotional aspect, or just an understanding. Feelings is really lacking, um, sometimes, but yeah, I encourage you to do that. Yeah.
[00:33:12] Eric: Well, this seems like a good time for a quick break. We will be right back after these messages
Well, you know, as a, as a design educator, myself and others who are listening might wonder what can they bring from climate science, your field, into our design classrooms. To a set of projects, um, uh, to maybe even a seminar, like what, what kind of things do you recommend is uneducated or bring from your field into ours?
Um, to, to kind of continue that conversation. That's so important.
[00:36:42] Katharine: I think that Brittany, even just a basic understanding of the science and scope of climate change is really important for design education. Um, it's hard for people to understand what's going on with them. That knowledge and toolkit to really not only see their role in the problem, but also to see society's role in the problem.
Um, you know, design is about society. So, it's about how we interact with the world, how we communicate with each other. And if you're not including, you know, the greatest problem that humans are going to be facing for the next, who knows how long? Um, I think that's a real. A real failure. So, I think that understanding the physical world and the physics of what what's happening, even if it's really basic, um, is really transformative and also really cool.
I think I never saw myself as a science person before I started to get into this, but I think that, you know, learning about stuff, mines not only helped me figure out how the world works and why it's so. Incredible and something worth protecting, but also how I relate to the world. I think that was really a key, right?
Like if I can understand why something's happening, I think that it makes me feel more confident in my ability to explain the situation and also take action. Right. I think that's the whole reason I went to grad school was because I needed to learn more. But I also think that you don't need to get a master's in climate change to, to take action, right?
Like
[00:38:24] Eric: good to hear.
[00:38:25] Katharine: Yeah.
definitely. And you know, you know, economically sometimes it's very much not feasible to do so. So, I think that finding all the free resources you can, like utilizing, like I said before, like utilizing YouTube and utilizing free courses on climate, listening to lectures about climate, I think that can really help.
And for professors, yeah.
I think bringing in people or experts and communities who have been affected by design issues and climate change or climate change is important. Um, I'm a, like I said before, a big believer in the power of personal narratives and storytelling to facilitate change. So, giving some space for those communities and experts to talk and share about their stories and perspectives and experiences can really connect the dots together for designs.
And, um, you know, climate scientists are always eager to talk. I think they are always looking for people to listen to them. Uh, I think, uh, you know, some of them are, you know, more high-profile than others. Right. And don't have the time to come to every lecture class you give, but yeah.
You'd be probably surprised at how open they are to helping and teaching students, especially.
Um, so I think facilitating those connections, you know, looking for, you know, the climate scientists within your university, uh, is really. Oh, low cost, high reward way to show students, you know, this is not only a career path for you, but it's also a way for you to integrate the things you love, which is design and the earth, hopefully.
Um, so Yeah.
[00:40:04] Eric: I'm glad that you're volunteering to come part in my class.
[00:40:08] Katharine: no, no. We can find, we can find some people for
[00:40:10] Eric: Yeah, but I also love the idea of having people that are or have been, or are currently affected by, climate issues. Also there, that's not something I thought of actually. , but that seems like. From your storytelling perspective. And as designers, a lot of times say they're storytellers, that's arguable and debatable.
But, that story I think is super important. , not only the science part, but Hey, it happened. It's happening right now in my neighborhood.
[00:40:40] Katharine: Yeah. And even if you can't get, you know, someone with a crazy personal story that will change your whole life, uh, in your classroom or on your zoom classroom, I think that. There are so many articles and storytelling already on the internet and it's free usually if there's not a paywall. So, I think that, you know, just putting that in the syllabus can be really influential.
Even if students don't necessarily understand why, it's relevant to their, you know, graphic design course. I think that even if it's just an elective article, it can really help people. Not only deal with their own emotions about climate, but also see why, what they're doing. Then try to integrate climate into their work is so important and beneficial for not only themselves, but for their communities and the environment overall.
[00:41:34] Eric: You mentioned syllabus. And so that's a great segue into my last question for you. And that is since you are a designer, um, and a climate scientist, I'm wondering if you were asked to teach a design class or project could be anything, um, about this issue, um, could be big, don't worry about funding or, or anything like that.
Uh, what kind of, what, what would that be? How would you, how would you, uh, kind of meet all of your passions into, uh, this class or project? Okay.
[00:42:12] Katharine: I would probably teach a design thinking class that's related to climate change. Um, I think design thinking has been really helpful in my personal experience to kind of figure out how to tackle problems and to be a creative problem solver. Um, and we touched a little bit on it in grad school, but I feel like it should almost be its own course.
Uh, probably, definitely be its own course. Um, using design thinking. Um, you know, which is just essentially an approach to building solutions with, and for communities closest to the climate crisis is something that seems to be a really easy way to integrate climate and design. Um, you know, we're not trying to develop huge campaigns, um, which also could be a really fun project to work on, but it's more of the philosophy behind.
What you're doing and how to get from point a to point B. Um, you know, you're scared, your client's scared, but, um, how do we overcome that and facilitate something that is not only aesthetically pleasing, but, um, not harmful. Right.
I think something that bothers me a lot about creatives is that there are a lot of creatives who are, you know, needing to work for companies that they don't align with, uh, emotionally or practically.
And it's no surprise that, you know, there's a lot of design and PR and advertising agencies that are really intertwined with the biggest contributor to climate change. And I think that that's something that we really need to. Start talking about more and there are really great organizations, but do talk about it, including climate designers.
But I think putting a lot of pressure on those companies and for university, it's not funneling their students to those companies necessarily is, is important, but it's also. Not feasible sometimes economically we need jobs. Um, and sometimes those jobs are working at places that you don't ethically align with.
And I think sometimes doing those jobs in those. Spaces is really important because I do think that a lot of change organizationally comes from within. Um, so if you have a lot of employees that feel passionately about, you know, cutting ties with fossil fuel advertising, um, it's hard to ignore that. And it's really important that creatives don't cause more destruction than good.
Um,
[00:44:54] Eric: I agree. Do you think we need, um, required design ethics courses?
[00:45:00] Katharine: Always
[00:45:01] Eric: Yeah. Cause I agree. We, we have,
[00:45:04] Katharine: yeah.
[00:45:05] Eric: we have a required one, so we're a little bit
[00:45:08] Katharine: It's definitely important. And even if you're not a designer, it's important to understand the ethics of things. Um, I've been in a lot of classes at undergrad, even in grad school where, you know, there's a lot of climate solutions being talked about. Without a full understanding of the ethical implications that come along with them.
Um, I can think of, you know, like geoengineering, which is something that's really accepted in society. Um, as a solution, you know, I would say most people who study ethics would say, you know, we need to really step back and focus on this and really sketch out the implications that will come if we do something like this.
So, I think you can kind of take that. Into the design world as well, right? Like if you're doing a project with a client and they're greenwashing, or they're not doing something that is beneficial to society, um, kind of taking a step back and saying, okay, like, what are the ethics of me working on this project?
What are the ethics of this project? And I think being more selective with, um, what projects you take or what you're even learning. Is really important, not only to maintain your integrity, but to also give a better future for the design field, right. You. don't want to be attached to, or stuck to, uh, organization or, um, a partnership that. May not be there sustainably for a while. So, it's good to set yourself up and say, Okay. we're working ethically. We're making decisions earlier. We can go to sleep at night and feel fine. Um, I think that's really something that a lot of creatives struggle with and it's not their fault necessarily. It's just more of something that needs to be taught when students are younger, Um,
before they start becoming professionals for them to really. You know, walk the walk and talk the talk, um, rather than graduate and say, oh, like, these are my only options and I have to work for it, these six organizations. So, I think, uh, yeah, and also encouraging students to do things independently and creatively. Um, you know, even if they have to have a job that they don't agree with, or even if they're in a class that, you know, doesn't support the ethics, like doing that self-learning and designing things that you want to do.
And really fueling your creativity is so important to not only staying sane in the climate crisis, but also to feel useful and not so helpless.
[00:47:45] Eric: okay. Well, thank you for your advice. This has been, um, a wonderful time talking with you and I'm taking notes because put a lot of ideas for my fall classes and classes going forward.
[00:47:59] Katharine: yeah, keep me updated.
[00:48:01] Eric: yeah, well, I think that, um, you definitely, um, um, went to one of the top of my list here to people to come Skype into my class or zoom, whatever the whatever preferred method you would like to do.
Um, and I also really would like to say that I appreciate your idea for a class. Um, I usually see design thinking classes about like, Entrepreneurship. And they use that process about like the next great widget. And, but I also see some about social issues too. Right. And, but I liked that semester long idea of let's just use this powerful design process that we have and put it to use over the biggest problem we're facing right now as a society.
[00:48:48] Katharine: Yeah, definitely.
[00:48:49] Eric: I love that idea. And I'm going to, I'm going to tell a lot of people about it and hopefully, hopefully they, uh, they invite you into LPG that helps them do that. But
[00:49:00] Katharine: That'd be great. yeah.
I think teaching students is, is really not only emotionally fulfilling and it's something that I've got the privilege of doing a few times now, but it also really helps you grow as well. Um, I think it's really important to, yeah. Always be learning from people younger than you and older than you.
And making sure that you're setting up a generation for not only success, but to really be, um, meaningful with whatever they choose to do.
[00:49:32] Eric: Yeah. It's like, uh, I think it's Antwan, Joe bear, he said to teach is to learn twice. Right. And
[00:49:38] Katharine: Exactly.
[00:49:40] Eric: I learned so much every time. My own faults. I learned things about the students, and I learned things that they teach me out in the world. So, you got to keep an open mind when you're teaching for sure.
[00:49:53] Katharine: Definitely.
[00:49:54] Eric: Well, thank you, Catherine. It's been a wonderful time sitting down with you and, uh, I really wish you the best of luck and, uh, we will definitely be in touch and thanks for, for promoting the climate designers’ group, because we're really trying to do what you're saying, and we should be doing so.
[00:50:11] Katharine: Absolutely. Thank you. for having me.
[00:50:13] Eric: Thank you.