ThinkEnergy

The 2022 federal budget doubled down on Canada's commitment to make all light-duty vehicles and passenger truck sales fully electric by 2035, with a considerable amount of money allocated to getting Canadians behind the wheel of an EV. Daniel Breton, President and CEO of Electric Mobility Canada joins us to discuss whether the real concerns about a shift to EVs are being addressed. From pricing models to helping rural, northern First Nations and Inuit communities, there's still a lot to be done. Related links LinkedIn, Daniel Breton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-breton-b8a3b1a4/ LinkedIn, Electric Mobility Canada: https://www.linkedin.com/company/electric-mobility-canada/ Electric Mobility Canada: https://emc-mec.ca/ --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Dan Seguin 00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin and my co host Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Are zero emission vehicles the answer to a stronger economy, cleaner air, a healthier environment and good jobs? The Government of Canada certainly thinks so. And they're not the only ones. Rebecca Schwartz 00:50 EV enthusiast owners, experts and advocates have been mobilizing like never before. They're being driven on a renewed commitment and mandate by the Canadian government to make all light duty vehicle and passenger truck sales fully electric by 2035. Dan Seguin 01:05 A look at the 2022 Federal Budget shows that considerable money has been earmarked to get more Canadians into the driver's seats of an electric vehicle. According to the government's projections, at least 20% of all new passenger vehicles sold in Canada will be zero emissions by 2026. To give some perspective, last year in 2021, the percentage of zero emission vehicles sold in Canada was 5.2%. That gives five years for the government to reach its targets-doable? Rebecca Schwartz 01:48 Well, since there's a rising trend in the demand of electric vehicles, many companies have actually gone out of stock. Automobile makers are experiencing a shortage in their EVs, and thus putting customers on waiting lists because of this high demand. Some manufacturers aren't even taking new orders for the foreseeable future because they just can't keep up. Dan Seguin 02:08 So here's today's big question. Despite the momentum, are the real needs, issues and concerns by EV enthusiasts, owners, experts and advocates being addressed and setting the stage for success? Rebecca Schwartz 02:25 Our guest today is Daniel Breton, the President and CEO of Electric Mobility Canada, one of the oldest associations dedicated to the electrification of transportation in the world. Dan Seguin 02:37 Electric Mobility Canada members include vehicle manufacturers, electricity suppliers, universities, tech companies, environmental NGOs, and many more. Rebecca Schwartz 02:50 Daniel's background includes serving as the ex-Minister of the Environment, Sustainable Development, Wildlife and Parks. He was also the first elected official to oversee a government strategy for the electrification of transportation in Canada in 2012. Dan Seguin 03:06 Daniel, thank you for joining us on the program today for what's a very busy week for you. To kick things off, can you tell us a bit about Electric Mobility Canada, its mandate, and what drove you to the organization? Daniel Breton 03:25 Well, EMC's mandate, EMC being one of the oldest organizations in the world dedicated to electric mobility. Its mandate is basically to accelerate electric mobility of all sorts. So we're not just talking cars, but we're talking buses, we're talking trucks, we're talking off road, marine. So we have a growing diversified membership. So now we do have bolt makers and bus makers and truck makers and mining companies and research centers and tech companies. So So that's it. So our mission is really to accelerate electric mobility in all forms and shapes. I would say that electric mobility is growing really fast these days around the world. And we also want to make sure that while we want to accelerate electric mobility, to lower greenhouse gas emissions and air pollution, we also want to make sure that we create jobs in the process. So to me, we want to make sure that we have an EV supply chain that's made in Canada, and that we don't just end up extracting critical minerals in Canada to send elsewhere in the world like we have done so many times in the past. We want to develop our own industry. And this is happening right now. And, obviously, we do a lot of networking but amongst members, and we have our conference, you know, happening from September 27 to 29th. And we talk a lot to federal government, provincial governments, cities, some of which are members. And you're a member being City of Toronto [Ottawa]. So yeah, so that's what I do on a full time basis. That's what I've been doing for decades, actually. And we have a growing team; growing membership. So we're, it's really exciting, actually. Dan Seguin 05:33 What's been the most significant event, innovation or policy that you think has changed the future trajectory for mass EV adoption? For the better? Daniel Breton 05:46 Well, I think there's not one thing in particular, you know, that may have made it possible, I would say that's a growing, or it's a number of things. So obviously, battery technology has evolved quickly, over the past 10, 15, 20 years. Just to give you an example, between 2008 and 2020- volume density of battery has grown eight fold. So when you look at batteries, today, you have, you can have a lot more capacity, and a battery now than you had five years ago, 10 years ago, and it's going to keep growing as time goes by a lot of people seem to think that if you have let's say, a 60 kilowatt hour battery, it's going to be four times the size than a 15 kilowatt hour battery from let's say, 2010. Actually, it's not the case at all. It's just that is has more capacity, and the smaller volume per kilowatt hour, meaning that actually weight has not increased as fast as capacity. So to me, that's very important. The other thing is that infrastructure, infrastructure deployment and infrastructure, evolution has made a big difference. Just to give you an example. 10 years ago, the average electric car had 120 kilometers of range. Now it's 450. So in 10 years, it's quadrupled. At the same time, 10 years ago, if you wanted to charge your electric car, there was hardly any fast chargers on the road. So for example, when I was working in Montreal that I had to go to the National Assembly, I could not buy an electric car, I had to buy a plug in hybrid electric car, because there was no fast charger petrol between Montreal and Quebec. That's 10 years ago. Now, if you go five years ago, a fast charger had a 50 kilowatt charger. So that meant that we went from charging 120 kilometers of range in about four or five hours to charge charging 120 120 kilometers of range in about half an hour. And now with new fast chargers, you know, weighing you know going from 50 kilowatt to 150 kilowatt, 250 kilowatt and even 350 kilowatt, you can charge 120 kilometers of range in 10 minutes. So so things have accelerated regarding the technology of infrastructures as well. Education is making a big difference because more and more people are interested in EVs. There's still a lot of work that needs to be done. I'm often surprised to hear the same questions I was being asked 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago regarding battery life, for instance. But I still do get those questions on social media and even sometimes on regular media. Rebecca Schwartz 08:55 On the other hand, what do you consider to be the most significant setback or barrier to the mass adoption of electric vehicles? Feel free to speak to Canada in general, and more specifically, right here in Ontario? Daniel Breton 09:08 I would say it's education and training and supply. So that's the three the three things the three issues the roadblocks, first of all, supply. I mean, most EVs nowadays you have to wait between six months and three years to get your hands on one. So that's a real issue. We are supporting the federal government, and its will to adopt a federal ZEV (Zero-Emission Vehicle) mandate to make sure that we have more and more supply of electric cars across the country, but in Ontario in particular- I don't know if you remember this, but 11 years ago, the federal government and the Ontario government announced joint support for the assembly of the Toyota Rav4 EV. So both of them gave $70 million to assemble the Rav4 electric in Woodstock, Ontario, because there was no regulation no mandate in Ontario or in Canada for that matter, but because there was a mandat in California. And you have to keep in mind that back then there was a rebate of up to $8,500 in Ontario, even with the rebate 100% of these Toyota Rav4 EVs were sent to the US. So you could live two kilometers away from the plant, you could not buy one. So considering that now, the federal government and the Ontario government have invested billions of dollars into the assembly of either vehicles, or batteries, or cathodes or anodes across the country. We think that ZEV mandate is really, really super important for Ontario citizens. Because it would be a shame that we yet again, we would assemble electric vehicles and in Ontario, but because there are ZEV mandates, and 15 US states plus two Canadian provinces, while most if not all, of these electric vehicles assembled in Ontario would be sent elsewhere. So that's the first thing. The other thing is education, there's so much work that needs to be done. I mean, there's so there's so much disinformation or bad information, you know, going around in regular media, I mean, I read regular media on a daily basis about electric vehicles in English Canada, and I'm stunned to see how many bad articles written on electric vehicles. It's really bad. I mean, it used to be like that in Quebec, not so much anymore. There's a lot of work that needs to be done, and training, training for people to work in the auto industry. I did some training last year, for a car manufacturer, whose name I won't mention, but I was surprised to see how little they knew not only about the ecosystem, I mean, the chargers, the apps, the networks, but about their own product. I mean, I was teaching engineers at this manufacturer about their car. So to me, it shows how much work that there is still to do. Regarding the EV ecosystem- I often say when we're talking about electric vehicles, that when someone drives a gas car and wants to go to electric car, it's like saying, I've never owned a boat, I'm going to buy a boat. But there are a lot of different regulations when you are on the water because it's a different world. Well, it's a bit the same when you're talking about electric cars, because there are new things you need to learn about, in particular range, the way you use them on a daily basis. Winter driving, charging, obviously. So yeah, so education and training, I think is super important. And it's a roadblock right now. Dan Seguin 13:12 Now, Daniel, what is your opinion of the adoption rates so far in Canada, which provinces or territories, or even companies are doing the best job at building an EV movement? Daniel Breton 13:30 Well, I would say that provinces, obviously BC and Quebec are ahead of the curve. When you look at the Q1 EV sales number for Canada. While in Canada, we were at 7.7%. EV sales, according to Statscan. And BC, they were at 15.5%. So that's twice the national rate. And in Quebec, they were at 12.7%. At the meantime, Ontario was at 5.3%. So that shows that you need to have rebates. I think rebates are important, which you don't have anymore in Ontario, but you have to have mandates as well. Let me give you a perfect example of that. In BC, the rebate is up to $4,000 and Pei and New Brunswick it's $5,000. But because they have no mandate there, they have no supply so their their EV sales are below 5%. So I think it's very important to have both rebates and mandates regarding companies obviously Tesla is driving the charge. I mean, it's obvious. If you look at if if things keep rolling out like we are seeing today, the Tesla Model Y will be the best selling gas or electric vehicle in the world next year. I mean, this is no small feat. But so yeah, so Tesla is making a huge difference Tesla's a member of EMC, by the way, but we are seeing that some Korean manufacturers like Kia and Hyundai, are coming up with very interesting products. And I'm stunned to say this, but I think that the Japanese are being left in the dust, by even the Americans. And this is something I would have never predicted five or 10 years ago, we are seeing that there seems to be a lot of resistance on the part of Japanese manufacturers. And to me being old enough to remember, it looks to me a bit like what I saw in the 80s and the 90s, when the Japanese came really strong to the market, and they left the American manufacturers behind. So I think the Japanese manufacturers, not all of them, but most of them are going to have to wake up because right now they're really lagging behind. Rebecca Schwartz 15:56 So we recently had Loren McDonald on the show, and he talked about how consumers need to shift the way that they think about EVs. He said that EVs are more like a smartphone that you charge every night and less like a traditional gas car that you head to the pumps for. Do you agree with that? And if you have a story or anecdote that you'd like to share, we'd love to hear it. Daniel Breton 16:19 So well. I mean, obviously, EVs are becoming more and more like regular vehicles, because if you go back five or 10 years ago, as I mentioned, you know, a regular EV that was not $100,000, EVs had between 120 and 150 kilometers of range. So it was a very different story, then, my girlfriend still drives one of those EVs, I mean, she drives us a Smart Fourtwo electric, it has 100 kilometers of range, it doesn't even have fast charging. So so when she goes on the road, she she's aware of the way that this vehicle behaves, and the range that she can have winter or summer. But keep in mind that most Canadians, most families have more than one car nowadays. So I would say that the first EV, which would be like the family EV, which can be either a car or an SUV, or even a pickup truck is the one that you're going to use when you go traveling when you go on a trip when you go to see the family. And that one is the one that you drive every day because you use it every day. The second one, if you have a second car, it can be a smaller EV, or a plug in hybrid electric vehicle. And, and I always suggest to people not to buy two big cars with two big batteries. I think it's a waste from an economic point of view, and environmental point of view. So, so if you want to talk about anecdotes, I remember when my girlfriend first got her car. I mean, I remember the second or the third night we went to drive in movie. And the range were the range that she had left was about 25 kilometers. And you have to, to plug the vehicle you have to connect to the radio to hear the movie. And she was honestly she was freaking out because she said, I'm not gonna have enough range to go back. We can't watch all of the movie. So we did not we ended up going back home before the end of the movie. It took her was, say, a couple of weeks before she got used to the range of her vehicle. Keep in mind that it doesn't have a lot of range. Now that she knows how the car behaves, she's not stressed anymore. One thing that happens to all of us is at one point we forget to charge a car or to plug the car at night. You know, it happens to us once or twice, but most of the time, then you remember it's like your phone, you know one night you'll come back home, you're tired. You don't plug the phone the next morning say oh my god, I have no, I have no capacity. There's there's no range. So that's the type of thing that you learn from. It happens to you a couple of times and then you know, I would say. What do you think are the biggest social drivers for the recent uptick in EVs? Is it really the high price of gas? Or is it connected to something bigger? I think it's a few things I think first gas prices have made a huge difference. Because people are seeing that there's a really it's really interesting to buy an electric car with those gas prices. But more than that, the fact that there are more and more child choices of different models and shapes of EVs You know with the new F150 lightning coming to market, you know the Kia EV6, the Hyundai Ioniq 5. These are really appealing vehicles. So I think that choice and and price is making a big difference. I mean, I'm sure you saw that but a couple of weeks ago, GM announced that they were coming up with their new Equinox EV starting at $35,000. And I don't know if you know this, but I just saw the price for the base Honda CRV. It's $36,000. So now, if you look at small SUV, electric, small SUV gas. Without the rebate, the small SUV the CRV is even more expensive than the base version of the Equinox EV? So even though people say prices of EV keep going up and up and up. It's not necessarily true. It depends on the model. Yes, some people do want more expensive electric car. But let's be honest here. You know, many people who buy the base model of any vehicle, gas or electric, it doesn't happen. It just doesn't. So I would say that prices of vehicles have gone up way up actually gas or electric. But we are seeing at the same time. So I'm very competitive models in on the EV side, especially from GM and I have to salute them for that. Dan Seguin 21:29 I've got a follow up question here for you. What are some of the overall benefits as a nation when we reach 100%, EV passenger sales by 2030 and all other vehicles by 2040? Daniel Breton 21:44 Well, I would say that the first benefit is lower emissions is going to make a hell of a difference. Because you know, a lot of people say that GHG emissions from transportation represent 24% of Canada's total GHG emissions. But that's only downstream emissions. When you add upstream emissions, it's 30%, meaning that transportation is the number one source of GHG emissions in Canada. But that's GHG emissions, so lowering them by I would say 50 to 80%. Because you have to keep in mind that you have GHG emissions from electricity production, although it's getting much better. I mean, the last coal plant is going to close next year in Alberta. And and Nova Scotia intends to go I think it's 80% renewable by 2030. So as time goes by electric vehicles become cleaner and cleaner because the grid is becoming clearer and cleaner. So that's one thing. But the other thing, which is super important, and people seem to forget, is that according to Health Canada, they released a report on the impact of air pollution last year, the economic cost of air pollution is estimated at $120 billion, not millions, billions 120 billion from air pollution. And that's 15,300 premature deaths, which is eight times the death toll of car accidents. So if we bring more electric vehicles on the road, it's going to lower significantly air pollution, whether it's from light duty vehicles, or medium or heavy duty vehicles. So it's going to save billions of dollars to Canadians, help our healthcare system and save 1000s of lives. I mean, this is not insignificant. This is very important. And this is something I think that needs to be said. And last but not least- jobs. I've been talking about this, believe it or not, I've been coming to the House of Commons because from where I am, I can see the House of Commons right here because I'm in Gatineau this morning. I've been I started to talk about the EV industry about 15 or 16 years ago to the federal government saying that we need to transition our automotive sector from gas to electric because that's where the industry is going. So there was really not much of any interest for years. But now the federal government has really caught on I have to salute Minister Champagne for his leadership on this particular issue to make sure to attract EV assembly battery assembly battery manufacturing, critical minerals strategy. So we are seeing a real shift I mean you have to keep in mind that between 2000 and 2020 light duty vehicle production in Canada has been going down and down and down time and time again. We went from fourth biggest manufacturer in the world, to not even be the top 10 in 2020. Now, because the federal government, the Ontario government, the Quebec government and other Canadian governments are investing more and more on the EV supply chain in the EV industry, we are seeing a revival of the automotive sector in Ontario. And to me, this is significant. And if we hadn't done this, there will not be an automotive sector by 2030, or 2035. So this is huge. Rebecca Schwartz 25:33 Electric Mobility Canada recently launched a 2030 EV action plan with the goal of highlighting how we get to an EV future by 2030. So what is this and what was involved in its creation? Daniel Breton 25:48 Well, most members of EMC were involved with the creation of the 2030 EV action plan. So it meant, you know, manufacturers, it meant infrastructure providers, utilities, research centers. So I mean, we have a large pool of very qualified experienced people, or either staff or on our board, or our GR Committee on our MHD working group, or battery working group, our utilities working group, so all of these minds come together to say, this is what we recommend for the future of Canada regarding e-mobility. So so yeah, so it was a broad consultation amongst ourselves to see what kind of policies we could put in place to accelerate EV adoption. And I would say that the result has been significant, because we have seen a lot of interest from the federal government, amongst others. Regarding our recommendation, whether it was for- I'll give you an example, at the end of July, I was invited by a Minister Alghabra's Cabinet to be at his announcement for their new medium and heavy duty vehicle incentive program. Because we basically wrote the program, we sent it to them, we had some exchanges, and they said, this does make sense. And we learn from other programs elsewhere in the world or elsewhere in Canada. So I mean, it is significant. We're talking about more than half a billion dollars to accelerate EV adoption regarding any medium and heavy duty vehicles. Obviously, the infrastructure deployment program, almost a billion dollars is something that's going to make a big difference to accelerate EV adoption. This was also part of our recommendation and 2030 action plan. And but we're not stopping there to us that 2030 Action Plan was was an important, I would say, moment and EMCs history. But we are coming up with newer updated revised recommendations, new documents being published. So this is a, you know, this is a work in progress. Dan Seguin 28:15 Okay, great. We're going to discuss the six pillars of the plan today, which I think covers a lot of the issues and concerns raised by many Canadians. Let's dig into pillar number one, light duty EV; consumer adoption. Some of the highlights under this pillar include price parity, with gas cars, some clever incentive proposal and removing caps for taxis, and ride sharing companies to move fully electric. Can you talk to some of these and what your ultimate goal with this pillar is? Daniel Breton 28:58 Well, this pillar is to not only encourage EV adoption, but discourage gas guzzler adoption, because we have what we call, you know, the fee based system that we recommend. I've been talking about this for more than 10 years. Because, while people are buying more and more EVs at the same time they're buying more and more light trucks, gas light trucks. And this is an issue because we see that, you know, what most manufacturers offer now is more and more SUVs, pickup trucks and crossovers. So cars are less and less bought by Canadians because there are less and less manufacturers by OEMs. You know, if you go to a Toyota dealer, there's no honda fit anymore. There's no Yaris anymore, but there's more and more of those SUVs. So so for us a fee based system, I think is a recommendation that's important, but it's not an easy one to adopt. We have not seen anyone in North America I'd love the feedback system yet. We it has shown to be very effective in Europe. But it's it's an issue. And you know, in North America and Canada and Canada in particular when one thing that I'm really focusing on is the fact that for us, it doesn't make sense that, you know, car sharing companies, car hauling companies would have a cap of 10 vehicles that can get the federal rebate. Because not only do we want to encourage the transition to EVs, but especially in downtown areas, we want to make sure that if people don't know don't need to buy a car, and they can use a car sharing service, well, they should be encouraged to do so. And the car sharing services should be encouraged to electrify their fleet. So for us, this cap has to go. This is something I've been discussing with people in the federal government. And we are coming up with more data and information, you know, explaining why we need this. Other than that, no, you're we're talking about evey rebate for for used vehicles. This is actually in one of the mandate letters. And it has been in the mandate letters for a number of years now at the federal level, the program has still not been put together. So we are anxiously waiting to see what's going to happen with this. And last but not least, I don't know if you know about this. But in California, there is a particular rebate on top of the regular rebate for low income individuals and families who want to buy an electric car. So we think that this is something important for people who have, you know, we're not as affluent to be able to buy an electric car. Rebecca Schwartz 31:52 So Daniel in pillar two you discuss medium heavy duty and off road fleet electrification and a number of rebates, tax credits, and offsetting costs for electrical infrastructure. What are some of the key takeaways? And what about the tools and restrictions for large polluters? Can you speak to that a little bit? Daniel Breton 32:13 Well, I would say that what we are seeing because of this very important announcement from Minister Alghabra, this summer, what we are seeing now is that the main issue or the main challenge is infrastructure. Let's say you are a transit agency, and you want to buy a whole fleet of electric buses, you have to charge them. And the garages that we have in Canada have not been planned this way. So we have to really either adapt them or build new garages. But this is something that can be done. I mean, right now, there's less than 1000 electric buses in Canada, closer to 600. and China, they have more than 600,000 electric buses. And I was I was told a few years ago by someone from a trade transit agency whose name I won't mention that, because in this particular city that this person worked in population density made it harder for them to electrify buses. So I couldn't help but reply that, yes, because China, as we all know, does have a lot of people. So so to me, that was it was not an argument. I mean, if you want to plan this, you'll find a way. I mean, this, you know, there's the saying, you know, if if you want to do it, you find a way if you don't want to do it, you find an excuse. So to me, this is really a challenge regarding, you know, transit fleets, we're talking about trucks. Well, depo charging is going to be very important. But right now, this is not something that's been planned or budgeted in the federal government's programs. So we are looking to try and recommend to the government that we put together a particular program for medium and heavy duty vehicle infrastructure, this is something that we that needs to be done. And regarding off road vehicles, so off road vehicles is a different issue because a lot of people seem to think that if you buy a snowmobile, or Sea-Doo or a side by side, that it's just for fun, but a lot of people work with these snowmobiles and see those and side by side because they work in a park that they work at a ski station, work on a construction site. So keep in mind that our regulars, modern snowmobiles, it pollutes as much talking about air pollution here as 40 modern cars, gas cars. So from an air pollution point of view, it's a big win for people to adopt electric off road vehicles. So that's why we are pushing for that as well. Not to mention the fact that some of the companies making those side by sides and snowmobiles are Canadian companies. So it's not only good for the air pollution, but it's also good for job creation as well. And expertise. I mean, after all, I mean, where else then in Canada, should we have electric snowmobiles to start with I mean, it should be starting here. And it is starting here. Dan Seguin 35:47 Okay, at least 1/3 of Canadians live in multi unit residential buildings today. Under pillar number three, you go into some details about the national EV infrastructure deployment plan. What are the targets and recommendations you believe are needed when it comes to public charging and making condos and apartments EV ready? Daniel Breton 36:15 Well, there needs to be some regulation put together either by provinces or cities to accelerate EV adoption and merge, you know, multi unit residential buildings. Actually, I learned just a few days ago that the city of Laval, Quebec has put together an EV ready regulation that says something we are seeing in BC. And this is something we should see across the board across the country. Because it's not just about, you know, incentives for people to install EV chargers in condominiums, because some, some condo owners and all their their syndicate. They simply don't want that they don't allow for that to but to be able to, you know, for people to install them. So we think that there needs to be regulation so that, you know, there should be a right to charge. And this is something very important. We are asking the federal government but other governments as well, to make sure that at least we have at least a million chargers by 2030 across the country. We think it's very important because yes, public charging is key. But let's face it 80 to 90% of charging happens where? At home or at work. So if we have both public chargers and verb chargers and home chargers, this is the only way we're going to be able to reach our targets regarding EV options. Dan Seguin 37:50 Okay, here's a follow up question for you, Daniel. Where do you see utilities playing a role in the 2030 EV action plan? Daniel Breton 38:01 They will play a big role. I mean, they have so much to win from EV transition, that it's really surprising that some utilities don't see the interest. I wouldn't say that Canadian utilities don't see the interest, I would say that most of them do. Most utilities in Canada are members of EMC, we have a utilities working group, they are looking at ways to help this transition it both from a technological point of view from a planning point of view, and from a regulatory point of view. So they do play a big role. But I was part of a discussion last year with people in the Ontario government. Because a lot of people in government were saying how much is this infrastructure deployment going to cost? You know, people in Ontario and utilities. And I said, I asked this question to a person from the Federal from the Ontario government. I said them, you know how much it costs you to import oil to make diesel and gas in Ontario on a monthly basis? And that person said no. So I looked at how much Ontario cars and trucks consume on a monthly basis. And I made a calculation that's $60 a barrel, which was lower a year ago, you know, and back then it added up to $1.2 billion a month. So if you take that $1.2 billion a month that just flies out of Ontario because Ontario is not a province that produces oil, and you bring it back in and you put that money into infrastructure and jobs and electricity production from Ontario utilities. It's a lot more money that stays in Ontario $1.2 billion a month is a lot of money. So that means that we, Ontario does have the means to electrify its fleet and to update and yeah, to update its grid. Rebecca Schwartz 40:10 Next, what are the benefits to the government launching a national 2030, EV strategy and regulation? And why is this so important? Daniel Breton 40:19 Well, that's something that we are seeing already, you know, with the very important announcement that have been made by Prime Minister Trudeau, Minister Champagne, Minister Wilkinson, because keep in mind that when we're talking about create job creation, and and the EV sector, it's not just about car assembly or truck assembly or bus assembly, it's also about infrastructure, manufacturing, you know, whether we're talking about level two chargers, you know, the main sponsor of our e 2022. Conference is Grizzly, which is a company based in Ontario, and they make residential chargers, but they're going to start making public chargers, and they're doing it in a way that's very efficient. So that's show creation as well, where we're talking about construction jobs for those infrastructures, where we're talking about mining jobs, and processing jobs. So there was a report released by the International Energy Agency a few days ago, that said, that stated that right now, in Canada, we are right now about at 50/50 when we're talking about the percentages of job, and fossil fuel versus renewables, and electric mobility, and that's 2022. But we all know that between now and 2030, the number of jobs created, and renewables and green mobility is going to be much higher than in fossil fuels. So this is very important. We're talking job creation, you know, from the whole spectrum. We're going from mining to mobility. Rebecca Schwartz 42:06 Okay, so a quick follow up for you, though, a couple of items under the fourth pillar that we found to be interesting was the Green SCRAP-IT program and your recommendation to help rural northern First Nations and Inuit communities? Can you briefly talk about those and the rationale? Daniel Breton 42:26 Well, the Green SCRAP-IT program is inspired by stuff that we are seeing that we have seen in Quebec and BC, because of what we're seeing is that for people who drive older vehicles, whether it's for individual cars, or old buses, for instance, because some of those buses have been on a roll for a long time, and their pollution levels are through the roof. So we want to help either it's companies, individuals, or transit authorities, school boards, to transition to electric vehicles, whether it's, you know, cars, trucks, buses, school buses. But it's a way for us to make sure that we do accelerate the transition, but it regarding individual vehicles, what we are saying is that we should accelerate scrappage program. But what some people are saying in the industry is that should people should, you know, just get rid of the old car and be able to buy a new car, and it could be a gas car. So we don't agree with that. But not only that, when people let's say somebody gets rid of his or her Honda Civic, and decides to buy a brand new Honda CRV, well, air pollution is going to be lower, but GHG emissions is going to be higher because it's a bigger car. And GHG emissions are directly linked to fuel consumption. So it's not because you buy a new car that necessarily it's that good for the environment. So that's why we're saying our SCRAP-IT program should be linked either to the purchase of electric vehicle, but it can also be a transit pass. It can be an electric bike, it can be car sharing service, carpooling service, because, yes, electric mobility is a key ingredient in the solution to lower GHG emissions, or we're talking about transportation, but it's not the only one. So that's why because I've been working at this for decades. I know that we have to also encourage, you know, collective transportation, active transportation, car sharing, carpooling, commute work. All of this is part of solution when we're trying to find not only ways to lower GHG emissions but to lower traffic congestion as well. Regarding First Nations and remote communities, I live in the country. I don't live downtown Montreal for though because we hear that very often, you know, oh yeah, electric cars are only good for those who live in the city and try, you know, a commute around the city. While actually when you look at the Cape, the Quebec data 75% of EV owners in Quebec live outside of Quebec and Montreal, why? For a very simple reason, because they have either a garage or a driveway, it's a lot easier to plug your car, when you have garage or driveway, than when you live in a suburb. I'm sure you know this as well as I do. But for those who live further down, you know, let's say you live in northern Saskatchewan, or in northern Ontario. And you say, well, it's going to be really hard for me to be able to have access to electric car, or to drive the long distances that we need to drive we live in, we live far away? Well, first of all, there seems to be some misconception about the fact that Canada is a big country, and therefore we drive a lot. We do a lot of mileage. That's just not true. Okay? The average driving from Canadians on a daily basis to go to work and back 80% of Canadians drive 60 kilometers or less to go to work and back. So what that means is that, no, it's actually 80 kilometers and back 80 kilometers to go to work and back. So. But this is very important, because most Canadians don't drive that much. I mean, the average driving habits of Canadians from the latest data, which is not new by any means, because the latest data that we found from the federal government was 2009. Believe it or not, this is so outdated, I can't believe it. But anyway, we were at 17,000 kilometers approximately. So 17,000 kilometers, is not that much driving. I mean, I because I travel a lot for my work, I drive more than 50,000 kilometers a year. So having an electric car and driving a lot is no issue. What we need is to make sure that remote communities have access to chargers, fast chargers, in particular, when you get out of the 401, the 417, the 15 the trans Canadian when you go more up north, it is an issue for many regions in Canada, especially when you live in the prairies. I've heard some people, you know, look for chargers didn't know where they were because no one explained to them, where to plug the vehicle, there were only level two chargers. So infrastructure is a real issue. For those who really live, you know, outside are most of the grid, you know, when you live in Nunavut, or Nunavik are, you know, you count the Northwest Territories. There are more and more chargers being deployed, then very often people who live there buy SUVs or pickup trucks. So now that we're seeing more and more SUVs and pickup trucks coming to market, it's becoming less of a challenge, but they do need to get them delivered over there. That's the first thing. The second thing for those who would be, I would say, more anxious about the fact that when it's minus 30 minus 40. You know, you lose up to 50%. And rage, worse comes to worse, you can always buy a plug in hybrid electric vehicle. Mean, meaning that you know, you're going to have some range, especially in the summer. In the winter, not so much. So, but but the truth of the matter is that, you know, I've been driving EVs for I've been driving partial and full EVs for 23 years now. So I know that even at minus 20, I've been going to Saguenay they actually were organized an EV day, and Saguenay in January at minus 25 minus, minus 30. We're 20 of us from Avec. I was with Avec back then we drove all the way up there. And no one had an issue. You just need to have the infrastructure and that's an issue. Right now. In Northern Ontario. It is an issue. And we are seeing that in northern provinces. We're in BC and Quebec I would say. Dan Seguin 49:07 When it comes to federal leadership with respect to EVs in your sixth and last pillar, what is the government doing right? And what are your recommendations for improvement? Daniel Breton 49:21 Well, I would say that what the government is doing right for EV adoption at the federal level, is that they are helping more and more departments by EVs. So to me, this is this is key, but we need to install a lot more chargers in federal buildings and federal parking that we have right now. As I mentioned, you know, I'm right across the river from the House of Commons. And I think that I see like less than 10 chargers at the House of Commons. To me this is far from being enough. When I was in Norway in June, we went to a city called Arendal, about 300 kilometers away from Oslo. And it's a small city 40,000 people. And there was an underground parking over there that could accommodate about 150 cars. There were 70 chargers. So, so we have a lot of catching up to do. Let's put it that way. And on that topic, I have to mention this. When I was in government, in in my government plan for the government of Quebec, 10 years ago, we had a plan to electrify ferries. So when we lost our election, you know, the the electrification of ferry fell, you know, in the cracks. When I was in Norway in June, I learned that there's 825 ferries in Norway, eight wto five 825 ferries in Norway. 400 of those 400 of those ferries are already electric. And the largest electric ferry in Norway can accommodate 600 people and 200 cars. So I think that if the Canadian government wanted to electrify its ferry lines, it would be a great opportunity for the marine industry in Canada to develop a new skill and create all you industry actually. Rebecca Schwartz 51:33 So something that I thought was fascinating in this pillar was the zero emission zone in downtown Ottawa. Can you tell us what that is and why you recommended it or called out Ottawa specifically? Daniel Breton 51:45 Well, I think it's because it's the symbol. I mean, Ottawa is the capital of Canada. So if we have a zero emission zone in Ottawa, I think it will send a strong signal that people could not drive gas or diesel vehicles in that particular area. Dan Seguin 52:01 Okay, Daniel, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. And we have a few for you. Are you ready? Daniel Breton 52:11 Go ahead. Dan Seguin 52:12 Okay. Here's number one. What are you reading right now? Daniel Breton 52:17 Oh, my God. That's funny, because, you know, I used to read a lot of novels when I was younger. Now all I read is sports. I need that I read battery reports and I need books and I read everything related to electric mobility. The oil industry energy transition. So basically, most of the reading that I do is scientific or economic. That's That's my bedtime reading. Yeah. Dan Seguin 52:48 Okay. What would you name your boat? If you had one? Daniel Breton 52:54 I don't have one because I'm an old time windsurfer. So I live, I mean, my house is by the St. Lawrence River. So I windsurf in my backyard. So and I don't intend to have a boat. But I I keep windsurfing. Even though I turned 60 this year. I want to die windsurfing. Want to wind surf until I die. So yeah. Dan Seguin 53:18 Moving on to the next one who is someone that you admire? Daniel Breton 53:23 I admire a lot of people. It's hard to tell. Because I mean, so many people that I admire, I mean, believe it or not my I said my girlfriend but my wife because I got to wait three weeks ago. Thanks. She met with the Dalai Lama a few years ago, because she used to be a member of parliament and she was the only Buddhist Member of Parliament. So she met with the Dalai Lama. So that's a person that I really admire. Nelson Mandela, I really admire obviously, being from Quebec and native and you have to keep in mind that there and Ivanka has done a lot. For those who are in Ontario. You know, a lot of people think about independence, but when I think about going to the bank, I think about metal she knew when he was natural resources minister, and, and they held the referendum election of the nationalization of electricity 1962 And that helped propel Hydro Quebec from a small company to one of the biggest forces in the world regarding electricity production, and cleaning, electricity production for that matters. There's not a size and a need Ivanka are really important in my mind, I would say and even though he is controversial, I would say Elon Musk, you know, I mean, he's done so much. And he is such a leader and and you ways of doing things, but I don't always agree with him. But I have to say that when you work in electric mobility, it was what if it was not for him? We will not be there today. Dan Seguin 55:10 What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed? Daniel Breton 55:15 That's a good question. Real closest thing to real magic, I would say is that it was the night that I saw an aurora borealis. It's very spectacular. Dan Seguin 55:28 Okay, let's move on here. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began? Daniel Breton 55:36 To me personally, I mean, a lot of people close to me, I've got COVID, my mother's got COVID, she's been very sick. So many people close to me, either, were really sick. A friend of mine, you know, fell in a coma for almost 20 days. So I thought he was going to die. Another friend of mine, 52 years old, died from COVID. So so this is at, you know, this hit home really hard. For me as see point of view, keep in mind that I started at EMC on March 9 2020. And, and the first thing that I did as CEO of EMC, was to cancel a conference. So my first decision was to cancel a very important event for EMC for its members. And I remember, I cancelled it like March 15, like a week after I had come in. So people were really not sure about what I was doing, because it was this new guy canceling the conference. Is he nuts, but I was just, you know, in front of the curve. So it was complicated for us. Because since I would say that I was pretty much the only one to cancel an event of any big event or conference in 2020. I had a lot of issues with hotels and people that we paid for, because they said, not gonna happen. What you're saying doesn't make sense, these events will happen. We don't want to reimburse you. So we had to fight for months and months to get our money back. Because at one point, everybody came to the conclusion that there was no other way around this. But it was a couple of months that were really very hard. I can tell you that. Dan Seguin 57:27 We've all been watching a lot of Netflix or TV lately. What's your favorite movie, or show? Daniel Breton 57:37 Right now? I watched a series called the Casa de Pepe. It's a Spanish TV series. It's super weird, but it's very interesting. And, and the other one that I've been watching recently, because keep in mind that my wife is Vietnamese. So it's a short call, I think career plan or something like that about an Asian woman who was a lawyer. And it's it's served career and it's her path in life. And my girlfriend is a career woman, she has been very successful. So this is something that we watch together. Rebecca Schwartz 58:17 Okay, lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now? Daniel Breton 58:21 Oh, my God. I would say that it's just this- listen, I've been talking about EV and EV adoption and EV industry for decades now. So for for many years, I felt like I was, you know, this nut case, you know, that walks around, you know, the cities, you know, repent. The end is near, you know, I felt like because I was talking about I was talking about, you know, climate change, because I studied and climate change. That's what I studied in when I was in university. So to me at one point around 2005 or so, I said, we have to talk, we have to stop talking only about depressing stuff and start talking about solutions. And that's when in 2005 I said I have to make it a goal of mine to find ways to accelerate EV adoption. That was 17 years ago, I created MCN 21 back then; wrote books on the subject. I've written many books on the subject. But still until five years ago, I mean, there were only a few of us. Now that we are seeing car manufacturers, truck manufacturers, plane manufacturers. You know, jumping and jumping on the bandwagon of electric mobility. It's very exciting. And I mean, I didn't even take a vacation this summer because there was so much job so many consultations, so many reports. So much stuff to do. So at one point I said that to federal employee I said you know oh, well, I mean, I would be nuts to complain, because I have too much work because I've been asking for this for many years. But I would say the most exciting thing is just the vibe. You know, it's just, it's just that. I mean, it's a hot topic nowadays. I mean, just two years ago, because I've been, I've been, I'm well known in Quebec, a lot of people know me, people. I know, people, people know me. I'm all over the media. But in the rest of Canada, it was not such a hot topic to talk about electric mobility until maybe a year ago, two years ago, the most. But now every week, you know, I'm not the only one. But a lot of people now do interviews about electric mobility, electric cars, and the chargers. And some of those articles, as I mentioned, are really bad. But I mean, we are talking more and more about this. So the old excitement, you know about this transition, I think is is is very encouraging. And I know that all of us will have worked for decades to come, because this is only the beginning. Rebecca Schwartz 1:01:07 All right, Daniel. Well, that's it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. But before we go, if our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect? Daniel Breton 1:01:19 Well, they can go to our website you know and find a contact. We have a growing growing team now. So we have more and more people working at EMC so they can connect with us. They can send me an email info@emc-mec.ca. I'm always reachable. Dan Seguin 1:01:39 Again, Daniel, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers. Daniel Breton 1:01:45 Oh, I did. I thanks a lot. Very, very interesting conversation. I really appreciated that. Dan Seguin 1:01:53 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

When does an electricity issue become a crisis, and how important is communication from utilities to their customers during these times? Boyd Greene and Amanda Townsend, directors at Oncor Electric Delivery in Texas—which is the fifth largest utility in the United States serving 13 million people—are no stranger to facing large-scale power outages and emergencies. They shared their experience in managing these situations on this episode of thinkenergy. Related links Oncor: https://www.oncor.com/content/oncorwww/us/en/home.html Boyd Greene, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/boyd-greene-49816755/ Amanda Townsend, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandatownsend/ --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript Dan Seguin 00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. According to the Weather Network, we can expect an increase in extreme weather events as a result of rising global temperatures. While assessing risk is in the DNA of every utility company, there are some utilities that are predispositioned to more frequent crises and emergencies. Is it hereditary? Or is it environmental? We're going to go with environmental. Utilities across the world are storm hardening their equipment and systems in preparation for more violent storms caused by climate change. In the past six years alone, Ottawa has had its share of extreme weather events, with multiple wind storms, ice storms, floods, heatwaves, tornadoes, and a derecho. There is an undeniable rising trend in frequency, and duration of power outages as a result of extreme weather. That because these natural events can cause extensive damage to electrical infrastructure, which means utilities are undertaking a number of initiatives to improve the resiliency of their systems, so that when storms do occur, they are as prepared as possible. So what do you do when you have extreme weather events often, and they're the size of Texas. According to NPR, Texas, like many southern states, has been ravaged by a number of natural disasters of late. Some view these events as regular occurrences for the disaster prone state. Everything from frequent storms, droughts, and floods, to multiple tornadoes, hurricanes, and wildfires. It is common for residents in Texas to be without power for days, even weeks at a time, depending on the weather event. Some view the increased frequency, and the extreme violent nature of these events as a sign of climate change, and possibly worse things come. So here's today's big question. How does an electric utility in an area prone to large scale natural disasters like Texas, approach large scale power outages and destruction to their infrastructure? And how do they fix them, so their customers can be restored in a timely manner? Today's guests are no strangers to facing emergencies head on in the electricity industry. Joining me on the show is Boyd Greene, and Amanda Townsend from Oncore Electric Delivery. Oncore is the largest transmission and distribution electric company in the state of Texas, and the fifth largest utility in the United States. It serves 13 million customers. Boyd and Amanda, welcome to the show. Okay, let's begin. Oncore has faced some major storms over the years. What are three of the biggest lessons you've learned from a people and communications perspective when handling in electricity crises? Amanda Townsend 03:58 That's a great question. The three biggest ones, there's way more than three. But I think the first one is you really, in those times, you can never really over communicate. But you do have to make sure that your communication is clear and concise. You know, you really need to focus in and make sure that people are getting the information that they need on the channel that they need it. Same thing applies to blue sky, but it's even more pertinent when you're in a storm mode. I would also say in the absence of information, people make up their own reality. And you have to be prepared to work through that you've got to circumvent that you've got to prevent that. You've got to get with media, all these type of things that you really have to do to tell the story, tell the narrative, help people understand what the big picture is, because it's a very personal thing when whether your power is out or whatever is happening. It's personal, it's to you. And you have to recognize that but you also have to help them see it's not just you it's everybody; you're not singled out. And then last but not least, people will find you. So if you're not communicating, they will find you. I, you know, I've had people find me on Facebook on LinkedIn and send me messages. And, you know, they're just, they're, they're desperate for information. And so you know, you need to be out there, you need to be in front of it. Boyd Greene 05:24 So if I can add to that, just from an operations perspective, it's extremely important that operations has a good relationship with the customer facing folks, because we rely on each other to get that message out, to help our customers. Amanda Townsend 05:39 Okay, wondering if you could share with our listeners, what your communication strategy is, during the crises, who's in the room, and on your team? What are the vital roles? So it varies from storm to storm, but if we're talking large scale storm, you know, we're going through the full Incident Command Process, and you've got all leadership that's in the room together all trying to make decisions and give each other information, our communication strategy is really try to get ahead of weather that we can predict, right, start pushing out information on social, don't want to bother people. So we don't want to send like a ton of push alerts, because that's not really what they signed up for. They can check The Weather Channel, but really trying to make sure that people understand, hey, we're here we see it come in, we're ready to respond. That's the message we want to get out there. And then throughout the storm, you know, we're working closely with our operations folks getting information, trying to make sure that we're understanding the areas of impact, you know, if we're going to have to set up restoration areas are we going to have to bring in mutual assistance, what's really going on out there, so that we can turn around and tell the story. You know, in my role, I'm really focused on customer communications, we have another team that's really focused on media communications. And so we're all working together to make sure that we have the same narrative that we're giving the same information, so that there's no confusion. We also, you know, we will communicate through a lot of our other internal channels. So we have area managers that are responsible for working with city officials. And so if we know there's impacted areas, we can convey information out to them, we can develop social post anything that they need to communicate with their constituents, we do, we try to reach out each and every way that we can to capture everybody. Thanks for that. Let's dive into the technology channels or tactics you rely on most, during a crises to communicate with your customers and the public at large. Maybe you could expand on video, social maps, and so on. So we try to communicate across a lot of different channels, because you really want to meet the customer where they're at. So we do a lot of pushing things out on social we can do, you know, targeting by zip code, all those sorts of things. You know, that's somewhat effective. But that doesn't capture everybody. You know, during a crisis situation, when there's a large scale power outages, that's, you know, your storm map is the most valuable tool that you have in your belt, because that's where people are coming for information. That's where the media is hanging out. So anything you put out there is that's where your message is going to get cast from. So we really know that and we leverage that opportunity to provide as much information as we can. We'll also send out ad hoc text messages, we'll do outbound phone calls, especially as we get further into the storm. And maybe customers have been even longer without power, really making sure they understand, hey, we're in the area, you know, even little things like, "hey, you might see helicopters and drones, that's us doing damage evaluations, it's helping us restore your power". So they know we're there and we're working. Now, sometimes the crises or the event isn't the story. But the ones your customers tell you, how do you get ahead of the story before public opinion shapes it for you. So this goes back exactly to what I said and the absence of information, they make up their own reality. And you do have to get ahead of that. And a lot of that does come from our communications group. With media, we like to have a meteorologist on staff that can actually do live cast and talk about weather talk about what Oncore is doing, how we are preparing, give restoration updates, that has a really good strong following. So you do have to get out there in front of it. You know, you will have those times where things kind of spiral out of control. And in Texas, it's kind of unique, right? Because we're deregulated. So you've got a lot of parties, you know, on the same boat, trying to tell their own story. And so you, you also have to graciously kind of step aside sometimes and let ERCOT or the retailer's communicate with customers as well. So it's a, it's a shared communication space, which contributes to some confusion at times. So we really try to focus on making sure whatever we have to share is relevant to what we're doing. And it's very concise. Now. Okay. Given the wide spectrum of events you deal with, when it comes to power outages, what is the difference for you, between an issue and a crises? How are they defined? And what are the thresholds for Oncore? Boyd Greene 10:45 With that question, I think I think we deal with issues every single day. That's just our bread and butter outages, right. But an issue can easily turn into a crisis if it's the right customer that's out. So a hospital being out- that can be a crisis. But in terms of storms, right, a crisis we define- there's several different levels. And it depends on what percentage of our customers are out. Does it affect just a district? Or is it an entire region that has problems? Is the- are the outages expected to be restored within less than 24 hours? If so, it's one level, if it's more than 48 hours, it's another level, eventually, we'll get to a point where we have so many customers out, affecting so much so many different regions, parts of regions, and we anticipate that it may be 72 hours or less that we're restoring customers, then we'll open up the SEC or System Emergency Center to provide that assistance. Amanda Townsend 11:45 And I think to add on to that, you know, I think that the environmental conditions contribute to that too. So you can have a tornado come through and the next day, it's blue sky. Those customers being without power for three or four days is inconvenient, but it's not necessarily a crisis. But if you fast forward, and maybe you're in an ice storm, and you're in sub zero temperatures for three or four days without power, that changes the narrative. Okay, cool. Now, during a major crisis, when restoration times are nearly impossible to estimate, what is involved to maintain positive public sentiment, credibility, and trust? Boyd Greene 12:25 So I think it's important to get the message out as quickly as possible. And to provide that ERT as quickly as possible, which is difficult in these crisis situations. Say it's a tornado, hurricane, or some other significant event, to get that ERT out there. Because you don't have the damage assessment done as fast as you would like, you may not have the crews available to go do the restoration work. So all of those things, you have to get done. But you've got to get the message out first. Amanda Townsend 12:58 Yeah, and that's where Boyd and I have to work closely together as well as our colleagues because, you know, my job is to give him a little bit of buffer, they've got to get troubleshooting done, they've got to figure out what all has to happen to restore in a certain area, it can be pulled down, there could be access issues, we run into that quite a bit. Icy roads, we've had trucks sink, you know, we've had alligators. I mean, there's a lot of things you run into. But you do have to take those things in consideration. And so our job is really to work together to provide as much information as we can, especially in that first 24 to 48 hours. And then as we were able to hone in on on a restoration time being able to communicate that. Dan Seguin 13:44 Okay, I've got a follow up question here. Just how important are ETRs- estimated time restorations? And does their importance depend on if it's an issue or a crises? Boyd Greene 13:59 So the ETR or the estimated restoration time is important in both situations. Whether it's just an issue or it's a it's a crisis event, the customer needs to know exactly, well not exactly- but they need to know about when they can expect restoration to happen. They have to plan their lives around these events. And when you provide it as best we can, it gets much more difficult in a crisis situation. Because you have to get your damage assessment done first, you've got to get your troubleshooting done. You've got crews to coordinate, and it just gets exponentially much harder to do that in a crisis situation. So our restoration philosophy is and this holds true on a blue sky day. Or we're going to a crisis level event right? So our restoration priorities always get the maximum number of customers on first, which is generally your higher order devices like your feeder breakers. Reclosure. So Wisconsin things with a caveat that we have to keep in mind we have have some critical infrastructure that's that's for safety to the public, maybe it's a hospital, could be a fire station, police station, those kinds of things, we have to build that into the equation. So it's the higher order devices first, keeping in mind just what I said about the other critical customers, and then we'll work our way down, because reality is, our first responders generally average about an hour per event to resolve it, or make a work order on it, right. So if I can have an employee spend one hour on a event as 1000 customers on it, it's much more effective and quicker restoration than it is to put them on an event that has 10 customers. So our customer count drops significantly in those first few hours that way. Dan Seguin 15:47 Okay. What are your biggest worries about the increase in extreme weather events we are seeing? How are you preparing? How is Oncore preparing? Boyd Greene 15:59 So yes, it is worse. And I think, given that we're coming out of COVID. My biggest worry for the increased activity is our supply chain. So we're a big utility, we have lots of inventory set aside, we're prepared for just about anything. But if a significant event were hit anywhere in the States, and affect multiple utilities, that supply chain could possibly get disrupted. That's, that's one thing I worry about. Dan Seguin 16:35 Okay, I want you to finish these sentences here. During a crises never blank. Boyd Greene 16:43 Panic. Dan Seguin 16:44 Okay. Why do you said that? And can you provide me with an example? Boyd Greene 16:49 So, yes, so I've done this for quite a while. I've seen different folks in different roles. And those who panic are never effective at developing a good plan. And so it's hard not to get into panic mode, because things are happening so fast. But you have to remain calm. Trust your plan and build your plan around your folks. Dan Seguin 17:14 Okay, next one, during a crises always blank. Amanda Townsend 17:19 Think big. Dan Seguin 17:21 Okay, now maybe expand? Why? Or can you provide me with an example? Amanda Townsend 17:27 If you start getting too granular, you're not going to solve the big problem. And you're also going to stop working and communicating cross functionally. Dan Seguin 17:37 Okay, wondering if you could unpack how you respond to large scale emergencies and disasters that exceed your capability to effectively respond and recover? Boyd Greene 17:51 So our our system covers over 54,000 square miles. So the odds of any single event affecting our our whole service territorie is small. So, because we're so large, the areas that aren't impacted, we can move those resources into the area that is, so that that does help us. And so our territory, just for your listeners goes from the New Mexico border to the Louisiana border up to Oklahoma, and down to Central Texas. So it's pretty large. When, when the events exceed what we can do with that, then we'll call in mutual assistance, folks will have electric companies from other states come in, we'll call contractors from other states to come in. And so we've got a pretty robust system set up for that. And calls go out pretty quick, when we need them. Amanda Townsend 18:47 And for customer communications, we also have our own search capabilities, where our contacts and our we can double our workforce within 24 hours. I also have internal resources that we tap into, you know, we've obviously encountered our fair share of large scale events. And, and winter storm Uri, we took more phone calls and one day than we did an entire year. And we also went from, you know, a norm of you know, 17 or 18,000 social media cases that you need to work per year to at our peak 35,000 an hour. And that's really where you have to, you can search but you can only search so far. And that's really where focusing on your digital communication platforms and focusing on those things like your store map, and really trying to get information out into the hands of the people is really critical. We're just about done here. When it comes to crises, what's the best advice you have ever received? And what's the best advice you've ever given? Boyd Greene 19:58 So received was delegate. Good example. It wasn't long before I started working storms and really managing storms. My director kept asking me for information about every hour, same information. And after about the fourth or fifth time of asking me that, he pulled me aside. So we're walking back to a conference room so he can have a talk with me. And I know he was upset that I didn't get him the information, right. So as you're walking to the conference room, in my mind, I prepared my response. I'm busy, I've got this, all these other things are happening. And he said, You know, I've been watching you, you don't have the information that I needed, I had to go get it from somebody else. But you don't have it, because you're doing all your people's work. Let them do their jobs. Don't micromanage it, just follow up on. So you have to delegate to get things done. Amanda Townsend 21:00 So I would say the best advice that I ever received is it's not about you. This is not your time to step up and try to be you know, the who's who of of the storm, you have a job to do and get it done. Work cross functionally support one another. And at the end of the day, it's all going to be okay. Boyd Greene 21:22 And I think what you just said, is probably the best advice I've given to somebody. Stay calm. If you have to go to the room over there, turn your phone off and sit 15 minutes in the dark, but remain calm. Dan Seguin 21:38 Well, Boyd, and Amanda, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergy podcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

Reaching Canada's net zero goals is a bit like solving a national puzzle. There are many pieces that need to fit together, including doubling or tripling the amount of zero-emissions electricity Canada currently produces to meet future demand for widespread electrification. Caroline Lee, senior researcher with the Canadian Climate Institute, walks us through the Big Switch report, which highlights three crucial changes required by Canada's electricity sector in order to hit the country's net zero goals. Related links Website: https://climateinstitute.ca/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/canadianclimateinstitute/ --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript Dan Seguin 00:06 This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. According to the Canadian Climate Institute, the country's leading climate change policy research organization, all roads to net zero pass through electricity. I know we've mentioned this many times on the show, but it bears repeating how Canada produces some of the cleanest electricity in the world. 80% of the electricity generated across Canada comes from sources completely free of greenhouse gas emissions in Ontario's electricity sector is one of the cleanest producing 94% of its electricity from non emitting sources. So there's still work to be done to make Canada's electricity sector even cleaner. But in essence, the electricity sector isn't the problem when it comes to climate change. But according to the Canadian Climate Institute's recent report called The Big Switch, it is the solution. So what does contribute to Canada's emissions, refined petroleum, primarily used for transportation, natural gas, which is used primarily to heat our homes and buildings and the energy processes involved in industries particularly steel, cement, and chemical industries. According to the big switch report, our country needs to reduce its reliance on these fossil fuels, if we hope to achieve Canada's Net Zero targets by 2050. But that's only a piece of the national puzzle. The big switch report suggests that we must double or even triple the amount of zero emissions electricity that we currently produce to meet future demand for widespread electrification. The Canadian Climate Institute highlights three critical changes to Canada's electricity sector, make it bigger, cleaner, and smarter. So here's today's big question. What are the key ways that Canada's electricity system can evolve and improve in order to replace fossil fuels and better align with net zero targets? We're going to dig into all of that on today's show. Established by Environment and Climate Change Canada, the Canadian Climate Institute provides independent and expert driven analysis to help Canada move toward clean growth in all sectors and regions of the country. Today, our guest is Caroline Lee, Senior Research Associate at the Canadian Climate Institute. Caroline holds a Master's Degree in Resource Management from Simon Fraser University and has previously held positions with International Energy Agency, the government in New Brunswick and Navius Research. Caroline, welcome to the show. Now, the Big Switch summary report is based on two other detailed reports, bigger, cleaner, smarter, and electric federalism, which we're going to discuss on the show today. But in essence, what is the premise behind your report the big switch? What are you referring to? And what does the report aimed to outline or chief? Caroline Lee 03:57 Well, in simple terms, you know, we call this report the Big Switch, because we wanted to refer to this switch away from using fossil fuel energy, which as we know, generates greenhouse gas emissions towards using clean electricity. So the technical term for this is electrification. And this Big Switch is really important we saw because it really underpins the reductions of emissions, really across Canada's economy, and ultimately, it underpins Canada's achievement of our climate goals. So that's really why we undertook this project because we saw the importance of moving towards electricity in meeting Canada's climate goals as so central. And we wanted to understand what needs to happen at the system's level to support those changes. So when I say systems, I'm talking about the supply, the transmission, the distribution, how do those systems need to be changing, so that they can be equipped to support the shift towards electricity as we use more EVs as we use more heat pumps and so on. Dan Seguin 04:59 Here's a follow up question for you, Caroline. Your report references unabated fossil fuels, wondering if you could explain and elaborate. Caroline Lee 05:07 Yeah, it is a technical term. So unabated simply means that it's not equipped with technology to reduce the associated emissions. So for us that technology is carbon capture, utilization and storage, the technical acronym is CCUS. So there are ways for example, to continue burning fossil fuels, while reducing significantly the emissions associated with them if we equip that type of generation with CCUS. But what we see in our analysis is that if you're not equipping fossil fuels with CCUS, ultimately, the fate of unabated fossil fuels is very clear that significant generation associated with unabated fossil fuels, fossil fuels that don't have CCS equipped is going to have to be largely phased out. So when we looked at all of the analysis, all the studies that model netzero transitions in electricity, what we found is that at most 1%, of all generation by 2050, is associated with unabated fossil fuels. So we have to largely phase out that kind of electricity generation. Dan Seguin 06:17 That's very interesting. Now, Caroline, what do you mean, when you say that all roads to net zero passes through electricity? Why does electricity play a central role? Caroline Lee 06:30 It's a good question. And it's a good basic question that I'm very happy to answer. So maybe I can start with this first. First explanation around what the net zero goal actually means, you know, Canada, just recently committed to achieving net zero emissions by 2050. And this is an ambitious goal. And what that means is that Canada, has agreed to really zero out our emissions to get our emissions as close as we can to zero. And then whatever emissions are very expensive, or technically very difficult to get out of the economy, then we offset in some way. So again, this is an ambitious goal, there's a lot that needs to be done, especially in electricity to support that goal. And the reason why we say all roads to netzero pass through electricity is that when we looked at all the studies that model, a trajectory for Canada reaching net zero, there really was no credible path, without this switch towards electricity. And without making the generation of electricity cleaner. So we really saw tackling electricity as being critical to the achievement of Canada's net zero goals. And maybe I can just say it and in simple terms, three key reasons why that switch is so important. So first of all, electricity itself it when you use it, it doesn't burn fossil fuel, of course, so therefore, it doesn't release greenhouse gas emission. So we all know that if you're driving an Eevee, you're not generating greenhouse gas emissions directly. Now, of course, we know also that the production of electricity can generate emissions. So we can use fossil fuels like coal and natural gas to generate electricity. So that's where you can get some emissions. But what's really positive news in Canada and really around the world is that we're making quite significant progress, especially here in Canada, to reducing those emissions associated with producing electricity. And now that the federal government has a commitment to achieve net zero electricity by 2035, the country now has a clear mandate that we're going to be eliminating, by and large those emissions associated with producing electricity. So that's a really big thing is that electricity in the future could really be this conduit for using fully non emitting electricity from the beginning to the end. And then a third reason why electricity is so important is that it's just more efficient. So driving an electric vehicle is actually three to four times more efficient than using fossil fuels to drive that vehicle. And that's because you lose so much more heat. There's a lot of energy that's wasted when you're combusting fossil fuels. So because of those three reasons, electricity does seem to play a really critical role in achieving our climate goals. Dan Seguin 09:29 Now, I've got a follow up question again. Your report also refers to electricity systems plural. Was that intentional, and what are you capturing? Caroline Lee 09:42 It was indeed intentional. And that's because we recognize that Canada doesn't actually have a national electricity grid. We have a whole bunch of provincial regional grids and that's in large part because electricity is managed by provinces and territories. It's not directly managed by the federal government. So we wanted to to recognize the kind of regional uniqueness of all of these systems and that there isn't a single kind of unified grid across the country. Dan Seguin 10:12 So we're really talking about transforming Canada's electricity system, and how every Canadian will use energy in the future. What is Canada doing right now right now that you feel makes this achievable? Caroline Lee 10:28 Well, I can talk about a couple of things. One thing on the demand side, so in terms of how we're using electricity, and then another thing on the supply side, so how we're generating electricity. Now in terms of how we're using electricity, we're seeing quite favorable policies now to support the use of more electricity using technologies things like EVs. We've seen now the ban of the sale of internal combustion engines, within just about a decade, in Canada. So this is going to really accelerate I think, the shift towards electric vehicles in Canada in at least passenger vehicle fleets. So that's really promising. There are lots of other things we need to be doing in terms of driving electrification in other types of uses. So not only in cars, but for example, in how we heat our homes, in industrial processes. So there's more work to be done there. But the progress on electric vehicles I think is promising on the supply side, so how we're generating electricity. Canada has now as I said earlier, committed to achieving net zero electricity by 2035. So that's just over one decade, we've committed to having basically clean electricity across the board across the country. And that is quite an ambitious target. And it aligns with a lot of these scenarios that we looked at, for achieving broader net zero goals across Canada. So government policy actually seems in that regard to be following what's actually necessary to get us to net zero in electricity. Dan Seguin 12:06 The report says that the switch is going to make Canadians better off. Can you expand on that? And also, how inequity could be addressed? Caroline Lee 12:18 There are so many ways that I can answer this question, I think, from one dimension, we can think about the move towards electricity, this Big Switch, as making energy more affordable for Canadians. So our analysis actually found that overall, as a share of income, energy costs will actually decline as a result of using more electricity. And that's in part because electricity is more efficient, we're also seeing so therefore, the the operating cost over the entire lifetime, for example of an EV is going to be lower than the lifetime cost of owning an internal combustion engine, a gasoline vehicle. And we see the initial costs of these technologies also going down over time. So we know even you know, you probably know this quite well, the cost of buying an Eevee, even five years ago was significantly higher than it is today. And we expect those costs to continue to drop. And so this big switch can actually make energy overall more affordable for Canadians. And that's good news for everybody, I would say. But beyond the costs themselves to individual consumers, we see also quite significant opportunities for economic development. So one example here is that as Canada develops more clean electricity supplies, so we're we're producing electricity in cleaner ways. That gives us the opportunity to supply that clean energy to industries that traditionally use quite a lot of electricity, we think of for example, steelmaking that can increase their carbon competitiveness where consumers are increasingly thinking, okay, I want to I prefer to purchase steel, from a steel company that has a lower carbon footprint than a higher carbon footprint steel company. So using clean electricity in Canada to produce some of our industrial goods can actually give us a competitive leg up internationally. So there are some real carbon competitiveness benefits that we see. And then, thirdly, in terms of opportunities for Indigenous Reconciliation, I mean, this speaks to your question around equity. We know that Indigenous Peoples are in many ways marginalized because of historic racism, oppression, by non settler Canadians, we know that. So one way in which we think this big switch can help with the reconciliation and self determination of Indigenous Peoples is by allowing we know this already, actually, that Indigenous Peoples are already owners and co-owners of a lot of clean energy projects and we only see that trend increasing. So that allows them to be very much a part of this transition, take advantage of the economic opportunities, and also determine their own paths in terms of how they want to pursue this. This next wave of, of energy transition. Dan Seguin 15:16 Thanks, Caroline. There was a reference to defraying the cost of electricity system investments away from customers by using public funds. Can you explain a bit about that? And why that would be favorable? Caroline Lee 15:31 Yeah, I think this is worth digging into a little bit. So currently, the costs of generating electricity are paid for by the ratepayers. So whoever uses electricity pays for those investments, at least indirectly. What we're proposing in our report is that it's not only the rate base of the people that are using electricity, that help share the cost of electricity system investments, but that those costs get shared more broadly to taxpayers at large. And the reason why we think that could be really critical is that I'll just say three reasons here. First of all, the benefits of electricity systems investments are actually shared more broadly than across ratepayers. And that's because electricity, as I said earlier, is so essential for Canada to meet its climate change net zero targets, that the benefits are shared more widely, as well. So if the benefits are shared widely, we think there's justification for having the cost shared more widely as well. We also think of electricity really, as something like, you know, it's critical infrastructure in this day and age, you can think of it like hospitals, we need electricity, to run our lives and to, and to support Canadians day to day. And because we see electricity as such critical infrastructure, we see also that there's justification to support the maintenance and the in the kind of enhancement of that infrastructure through the tax base. And then last reason is a little bit more wonky. But when we defray these costs of the electricity systems investments through taxes, instead of the rate payer base, that can be a more progressive way of distributing that costs. And by progressive, what I mean is that it doesn't hit low income households as much as it does when you distribute those costs through rates. So overall, I think there, we think there is justification for having those costs spread out more evenly across society at large and Canada. Dan Seguin 17:40 Now, let's move to the next big report. Bigger, cleaner, smarter pathways. Now, Caroline, I really want to tackle your report, word by word. Let's start with the word bigger. What does your evidence and research say about meeting future demand due to widespread electrification? And when you say big, how big are we talking about? Caroline Lee 18:10 The first report is titled bigger, cleaner and smarter. And that summarizes the three critical ways in which we see electricity systems having to change and transform in order to support net zero. So in terms of that first change bigger. Yes, we see electricity systems having to grow because there is going to be increasing demand for electricity as we move into net zero world as we use more EVs, more heat pumps, and so on. And so we expect that demand when we look across all the studies that try to project how much electricity is needed, what we see is that anywhere between 1.6 to 2.1 times more demand is going to be required by 2050 compared to today. So you can think of it as an about a doubling of electricity demand by 2050, compared to today, and what that means in terms of the capacity of the electricity system. So in essence, the physical infrastructure, the size of the system that's required to produce that amount of energy that has to grow even more. So we're seeing installed capacity of electricity, more than doubling if not more than tripling by 2050 compared to today. Dan Seguin 19:24 Okay, so let's talk about 2050. Are we on track to meet? How can we accelerate to meet the goal? Caroline Lee 19:33 In short, I don't believe we are on track today. One stat that we have from our analysis is that if we want to be meeting these capacity needs these supply needs for 2050. Canada broadly has to be building capacity three to six times faster to 2050 than it has in the last decade. So the pace that we've been building capacity is not is falling short of the pace that's required to support all of this electrification. What do we do to get there? I mean, there are lots of things we've identified really a range of barriers that are preventing us from building clean energy at the pace that we need. There are barriers in terms of local opposition. I think sometimes community members don't feel like they're, they're consulted enough. And they don't feel like they're a part of the project approval processes. So community members can oppose local projects. We're seeing supply chain blitz right now. I mean, that is one reason why we're seeing higher renewable energy prices, because the markets are having trouble kind of keeping up with the demand for clean energy projects. So there are an array of barriers that we had identified, that we think need to be addressed in order to pick up the pace on increasing clean energy supply. Dan Seguin 20:54 Moving on to the next word cleaner. Okay, where will the majority of cleaner electricity capacity come? Your report actually says solar wind storage, what's involved in growing these cleaner electricity sources and phasing out those that are polluting or emitting greenhouse gases. Caroline Lee 21:16 So maybe I can divide my answer in two in terms of what's involved in growing that cleaner component, and then what's involved in phasing out the polluting sources. In terms of the clean energy sources, the sources that we saw that grew by far the fastest in any net zero scenario, as you say, We're solar and wind, if you add storage into the mix, those comprise really the majority of all new capacity that has to be built in Canada. So what we saw is that in the next decade, so from now to 2030, anywhere between 63 and 96% of capacity that's added to Canadian grids has to be from those sources in order to be compatible with net zero. So generally, whatever we're putting onto the grids, it should be wind, solar, or storage, to support netzero goals. Now, there are lots of things that stand in the way as I said in my previous answer to this rapid building, and deployment of clean energy projects. So there are lots of things that we need to be doing from a technical perspective. But also from a social and institutional perspective. I think bringing people on board, making sure the markets that are in the systems that our electricity systems operate in, are aligned with those broader netzero goals. tackling some of these really sticky challenges around enhancing the integration of grids across regions, all of these things are going to have to be tackled in order to build solar and wind in particular, as quickly as we need to know in terms of your the second component of phasing out polluting sources, the federal government already has policy in place to phase out unabated coal generation, so coal generation that's not equipped with CCUS. But the next frontier now is tackling natural gas and natural gas is a fossil fuel, it burns cleaner than coal. But currently, we don't have at least a policy that's been implemented to address natural gas that's consistent with net zero. So the federal government has now committed to what's called a clean electricity standard. They've committed to finding a way to develop a policy, essentially to meet that 2035 netzero electricity goal. We'll see how the details of that are rolled out. But it's promising that that policy is already in development. So I'm actually seeing quite a lot of progress on that front in terms of phasing out polluting sources. And I think so long as the federal government policy is robust and applies, really across the country, I think we should be in good standing to meet the target of phasing out polluting sources. Dan Seguin 24:13 Okay. Now, what about our existing renewable energy sources like hydro, and nuclear? Will they still be vital and play a major role? What's the plan or recommendations for them? Caroline Lee 24:28 It's a great question. I mean, oftentimes, the story is about solar and wind. And we forget about Canada's strong existing base of non emitting power, which is hydro and nuclear. And so I would say that in terms of getting cleaner, we talked about growing clean energy, we talked about phasing out polluting sources, but there's a third element that's really critical, which is maintaining what we already have that's working quite well. So the studies that we looked at for the most part, they still see large hydro and large nuclear are playing a strong, continuing strong role in Canada's netzero future. There are some studies that want to test what happens if we phase those out. What happens if we let you know at the end of their useful life, we fail to refurbish them. In most cases, what that means is you have to simply rely even more on other non emitting sources like solar and wind to grow even faster. So it puts the pressure on other sources to grow even faster. So that's, of course, a decision that has to be made by Canadians by decision makers, what is the energy future that we want? But again, if we allow our strong base of hydro nuclear to decline, then we need to be really accelerating the deployment of other types of energy. Dan Seguin 25:47 Now, how about we address the next word- smarter? What is the smartest way to make our electricity system more flexible and supportive of variable supply from renewable sources? Can you maybe talk more about what it means to make electricity systems smarter? Caroline Lee 26:10 By a smarter what we actually mean is more flexible. So that's what you alluded to in your question. And there isn't a single way to enhance flexibility. I think that's actually the good news story. First of all, why don't I take this take a step back to say that flexibility is so important, it's not something that we talk about a lot, but it's going to become increasingly important as we move to integrate more shares of solar and wind onto our grids. Solar and wind, as we know, produce electricity in more variable and more intermittent ways. So flexibility in electricity system is something that can help accommodate higher shares of solar and wind onto our grid. So that's important for that reason, flexibility is also really important because we're also seeing, say increased demand for electricity and changing load patterns as a result of more EV uptake. If everybody comes home and charges their EVs at the same time, that's going to change the level and the timing of electricity demand. So the ability for the system to respond to those is also really useful. And let me just say a last reason why flexibility is so important is to respond to disruptions due to extreme weather events. I think we know this extremely well here in in Ottawa, I bet you know this better than most people, the cost, and the losses that can be associated with extreme weather events, and, and the and the terrible implications, essentially, of extreme weather on electricity systems. So flexibility is another thing that can help us better respond to those things. So broadly, we see kind of four groups of measures that can help us build more flexibility into our electricity systems. And the good news is, is that different regions are going to be relying on different types of measures. And there's no single bullet that there's really a toolkit, there's an array of measures that different regions can draw on. So things like for example, on the supply side, using more dispatchable types of generation generation that can be called upon on demand to generate like hydro, like natural gas with CCS. Also, things like enhancing the integration of grids across regions, those types of things help different provinces and territories better share resources across borders, things like hydropower, that can be really valuable in helping to balance variable sources like solar and wind, a third set of measures around storage, deploying storage, including short term storage, but more emerging long term storage solutions as well. And then a last basket of measures around making demand itself more flexible. So traditionally, we have seen demand is being fixed, you know, you consume demand when you consume it. But now we're seeing all kinds of possibilities, for example, to shift demand to times when it makes more sense. So for example, to defer the charging of EVs to the middle of the night when it puts puts less stress on the system. Dan Seguin 29:19 You've just provided me with a great segue. Given climate change and extreme weather events becoming more commonplace, what does boosting resiliency of our electricity system look like for the future? Caroline Lee 29:33 I think resiliency is only going to become more of a priority not only in electricity systems, but broader energy systems as we see the growing incidence and magnitude of extreme weather events. So you're exactly right that this is this is a an important thing to talk about. I think traditionally when we think about building resilience in our electricity systems, we think about hardening infrastructure. So we think about measures to Do, for example, strengthen transmission and distribution lines or maybe even underground lines and poles, to withstand extreme weather to avoid those things. But what I would say is that while those buckets have met that bucket of measures is really important. The concept of resilience is broader than that. So it's not only about avoiding or withstanding extreme weather events, for instance. But it's also to the extent that we can minimize our exposure to them, but also accepting that there will be inevitably, some disruptions along the way that we can't 100% avoid them, and then shifting also to learning how to manage them, and then recover very quickly from them. So they're not as disruptive. So from that perspective, and in addition to hardening infrastructure, I think we also need to be prioritizing emergency response and recovery. So thinking about as soon as we see some anticipate a disruption, how do we respond really quickly? And how do we make sure that we're deploying, that we have the resources to deploy emergency response when those things happen. And then, another thing I would highlight is that whole bucket of measures around flexibility that I was talking about. So flexibility is really great, because it helps us achieve our climate goals. It helps us accommodate more solar and wind onto our grids. But it also helps us better respond to extreme weather events. So there's an adaptation a climate change, adaptation benefit, too. And so flexibility, for example, you know, you think about storage, if you have a solar panel, and a battery in your house, that is good for reducing greenhouse gas emissions, because solar panels are a clean source of energy. But also that storage can be really beneficial as a backup source of energy when your lights go out. So you can kind of think of some of these flexibility measures as killing two birds with one stone where there's a emissions reductions benefit as well as a resilience benefit. Dan Seguin 32:00 Okay, now, it's time to move to the next report, the Electric Federalism, that's a policy report. Now, Caroline, one of the key takeaways from your bigger cleaner, smarter report, is that in order to successfully align Canada's electricity system for net zero, both orders of government must drive change through policy. This brings us to the next report, electric federalism, what is Electric Federalism? And why is it so important? Caroline Lee 32:34 Great question. So we think of this report as the, the how report and the first report as the what so bigger, cleaner, smarter is like what needs to happen from a technical perspective and electricity system. And electric federalism is well, how do we accelerate and support those changes? So electric federalism is this concept? Based on the fact that yes, we all we live in Canada, Canada is a decentralized Federation, which means that, as I was saying earlier, provinces and territories carry significant power and jurisdiction over many issues, including energy and electricity. So the federal government, of course, has has some power to drive, electricity systems transformation, but a lot of those levers, a lot of those policy levers actually reside within provinces and territories. So electric federalism is a way of moving forward on transforming electricity within this context, where we see multiple orders of government having complementary roles to play, we're trying to figure out how can those different orders of government work together? How can we make the most of the respective policy levers that the different orders carry? Dan Seguin 33:44 Something fascinating in the report, is the call for greater inter regional coordination, and the integration of Canada's provincial and territorial electricity systems. Those of us in the electricity industry know that there are a lot of regulatory roadblocks, but also that folks are very territorial about their electricity system. Can you walk our listeners through the vision? And what would be required for this to become a reality? Caroline Lee 34:20 You know, you are so right in recognizing the long entrenched barriers that exist to enhancing the integration of grids across our regions. The current state of electricity systems, as I was saying earlier, is that we really operate mostly in siloed systems. There's a little bit of trade between provinces and territories, but it's actually quite modest, even especially in relation to the trade that we have with the US. So we can think of, of Canada's electricity system as largely balkanized and siloed right now, and the reason why we wanted to really tackle this issue is that we've always known the benefits of integrating with neighboring regions. But now that we have this net zero goal, this climate change agenda that's so much more ambitious than it was before the benefits of integration have increased. So significantly. So the barriers that we identified to, for example, enhancing inter ties between Ontario and Quebec, we've got a long laundry list of what's preventing that from happening. Things like even self sufficiency, mandates from utilities, utilities, in some cases are mandated to have enough electricity within their borders to take care of themselves to be completely self sufficient. And so having too much trade or too much integration with neighboring regions would actually be going directly against that mandate. So there are some formal barriers like that. But then exactly as you touched on, there are all kinds of informal barrier. So political, social barriers, we don't really consider as electricity in the same way as other goods that can be easily traded across borders, I mean, electricity is often thought of as something that that is closely ident, closely connected to a provinces identity. So we have a harder time, I think, thinking about the trade of electricity. And then a last barrier I would mention is that because Canada's systems are so balkanized. Even market barriers and institutional barriers can be really important. So the fact that for instance, in BC, there's one type of electricity system, right next to it, Alberta has a very different type of electricity market. The the misalignment between how different provinces manage and regulate electricity can also be a barrier. So what we're saying is that we have our eyes wide open in terms of a realistic goal on enhancing integration. It's not about instantaneous integration, and a national grid tomorrow, we think that is not realistic and pragmatic. But what we do think is that there are ways of kind of testing and advancing integration and incremental ways across willing regional partners. And I would highlight in this circumstance, the Atlantic provinces, who are now pursuing this project of the Atlantic loop, they're thinking about integrating all of themselves better with Quebec, to better exploit, essentially, Quebec hydropower. So those regions that region rather those provinces have said, we are interested in taking those steps forward, there might be other provinces that are different stages of readiness. So we recognize it is ultimately up to provinces to decide yes, I want to pursue more integration or not. We think there's a few things that provinces can do, though, we think there's a lot more work that can be done to simply quantify those benefits of integration. So in an integrated resource plan, so when an electricity utility is planning for the next few years of how it's going to meet demand, having knowing how much the benefit of integration would be, and if they decide not to pursue it, having a justification for why they left that off the table, I think could be really important. Even things like collaborating on the development of those integrated resource plans with neighboring jurisdictions, not doing them formally, necessarily together. But having a little bit more consultation with neighbors can be really important. Things like sharing reserved margins across borders, those kinds of things, province provinces can do together. But then I will also mention the federal government is not without power here, the federal government has significant spending powers, they have significant convening powers. So the federal government can use the financial spending power that it has to support, even the building of transmission infrastructure between provinces. In terms of convening, the federal government has recently announced this Grid Council in its last climate plan, to be able to pursue more integration across different provinces so they can bring people together, they can bring provinces together, share best practices help organize some of these integration projects. Dan Seguin 39:33 That's great insight, Caroline, let's continue. In the Electric Federalism Report, it's recommended that the Federal Government work with provinces and territories to negotiate climate policies and electricity agreement. Has this been done before? And what are some of the advantages for Canadians with this approach? It's probably similar to health care and the recent childcare agreement that The Federal Government just introduced with the provinces. Caroline Lee 40:03 So this idea is really trying to, as I was saying earlier, to leverage the respective powers and policy levers of different orders of government. So it's possible that we can transform electricity systems with the federal government moving in its direction with provinces and territories moving in their own direction, that's possible. But we think that we have a greater chance of success when people work together when different orders of government collaborate and coordinate. So that's why we have this proposal of the federal government essentially tying financial support to the fulfillment of high level conditions on the part of the provincial governments. So for example, I'll give you some examples of what we think those conditions could be. So we would ask, for example, that provinces could change the mandates of key institutions in their electricity systems to align with net zero. Currently, utilities, for instance, are pursuing climate change goals, but it's not necessarily explicitly in their mandate to make investments that are consistent with net zero. So making and formalizing the netzero mandate, we think could be really important. The federal government could also ask provinces and territories to develop comprehensive energy plans. So thinking about what is the future for electrification in that province? How might we meet that demand? What is the future for integration, thinking about energy in a more holistic way across different energy sources could provide some more consistency and more foresight, essentially, for utilities as they make investments and make decisions towards net zero. And then thirdly, the federal government can ask provinces to participate in working groups essentially like to propose grid council. So the idea of this of this proposal is not to be too prescriptive in terms of the federal government requiring provinces to do XYZ. implement policies that look like this, this this, but rather simply fulfill these high level principles, fulfill them in a way that they see fit based on their provincial circumstances. And that way that would give greater assurance that we would all provinces and territories and the federal government together would be moving in the same direction towards net zero. And so as you said in your question, we've already done similar negotiating systems like this on health care, recent childcare agreements, essentially, the federal government has said, we will provide financial report, financial support, rather to provinces, if you fulfill these certain high level principles, so we're proposing a similar thing with regards to electricity. Dan Seguin 42:49 Now, Caroline, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. We've got some new ones for you. Are you ready? Caroline Lee 42:58 I'm ready. Dan Seguin 43:00 What are you reading right now? Caroline Lee 43:02 It's a book called Crying in the H Mart. It's it's written by a, an American Korean pop star, and she writes about her mom struggle with cancer. So it's, it's really good so far. Dan Seguin 43:16 Cool. Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Caroline Lee 43:22 The Sweet Caroline? Dan Seguin 43:23 Now a simple question here, Caroline. Who is someone that you really admire? Caroline Lee 43:30 I admire my parents, Dan Seguin 43:32 What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed? Caroline Lee 43:37 This is so cheesy, but the birth of my two children is, is the most miraculous thing I've ever witnessed. Dan Seguin 43:44 The next one- what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began? Caroline Lee 43:51 I think the social isolation has been particularly challenging, I think, not only for me, but for lots of people. Dan Seguin 43:58 Okay, we've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV lately. What is your favorite show or movie? And why? Caroline Lee 44:07 I think one show that I found that helped kind of buoy my mood was Ted Lasso. So I don't know if you've watched this show. But the positivity of the show, I really especially valued I think, during the pandemic. Dan Seguin 44:21 Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now, Caroline Lee 44:27 I think in climate policy, in the climate policy world, it's so easy to feel depressed about our prospects for succeeding in tackling this most this huge climate challenge. But I think on the positive side, we're seeing progress, like we've never seen in history of Canada or really in the world. In terms of energy transition in terms of policy implementation. We're seeing renewable energy growing faster than we've ever seen it grow and we expect it to grow even faster. We're seeing the phase out of polluting fossil fuels faster than we've ever seen. So I think there's no question a long way to go in terms of meeting our climate targets. But the progress I think that we're seeing in energy transitions is a reason for hope. Dan Seguin 45:14 Well, Caroline, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect? How can they learn more, Caroline Lee 45:26 Feel free to reach out to me directly. My email is clee, C L E E@climateinstitute.ca. And you can go to our website directly climateinstitute.ca To learn more about us and get more contact information. Dan Seguin 45:41 Again, Caroline, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Caroline Lee 45:46 It was great. Thanks so much for the invite. Dan Seguin 45:49 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

While the rate of electrical fatalities is trending downwards, electrical injuries as a whole are not as rare as we'd hope. From the underground electrical economy to DIYers taking on home renovations, electrical safety accidents have increased over the last two years. Josie Erzetic, President and CEO of the Electrical Safety Authority, told us how her organization is working to combat these issues and protect consumers from dangerous acts. Listen to our chat during this thinkenergy Summer Recharge. Do you work in a construction related industry? Call or email (ESA.communications@esasafe.com) the ESA to learn about their spring startup sessions. They are happy to send somebody out to educate your workers about the potential hazards around powerline contact. Related links: Grounded in Ontario Podcast: www.ESAsafe.com/podcast Josie Erzetic, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josie-erzetic-0bb58010/ Electrical Safety Authority: https://esasafe.com/compliance/what-you-need-to-know/ --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Dan Seguin 00:06 This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co-host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome to the summer rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy days of summer, we're bringing back some blasts from our podcast past. We'll be reintroducing some of our most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest. There's been a lot of talk about the future electrification of energy on the path to net zero. The episodes we've selected are very future focused with themes around green innovation, renewable energy, and our impact on the environment. So I hope you enjoy the summer rewind edition of today's episode. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back on August 15th to kick off another exciting season. Cheers. Dan Seguin 00:50 Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. And in today's episode, we'll be talking about safety in this increasingly, electric world. I'm dancing. Rebecca Schwartz 01:02 And I'm Rebecca Schwartz. Dan Seguin 01:04 Electricity is everywhere. It has become a necessary part of our lives powering the way we live, work and play. Rebecca, how much of a headache is it when the power goes out? Rebecca Schwartz 01:19 Hmm, it's a huge headache, Dan. And let me tell you, as a social media coordinator, I know firsthand that our customers feel the pain. Dan Seguin 01:28 Yep, I'm the same way when the power goes out, we notice but apart from those moments, it's easy to take for granted. Likewise, with it being such a critical resource that already has many safeguards in place, it's easy to forget just how dangerous it is Rebecca Schwartz 01:45 so true. And well, most of us have likely experienced an electric shock of some kind. Hopefully, for most people, just a small Static Shock, you know, from walking across your carpet with socks on and touching the closest victim in proximity to you. But I digress. static shocks like these are of little consequence. However, when it comes to the electric current running through our homes, businesses and communities via wires and powerlines incidents involving electric shock are anything but amusing. Dan Seguin 02:15 Unfortunately, the sobering reality is that electrical injuries are not as rare as you and I or the Electrical Safety Authority would like. According to the Ontario electrical safety report, there have been a 135 electrical related fatalities in the past 10 years. 52 of those deaths were a result of electrocution, or the effects of an electrical burn, and 83 were a result of electrical fires. The silver lining is that the rate of electrical fatalities is actually trending down. fatalities have dropped 13% Compared to the previous 10 year period. Rebecca Schwartz 02:59 And the organization behind this downwards trend is the Electrical Safety Authority. They serve to regulate and promote electrical safety in Ontario, improve safety for the well being of all Ontarians and ultimately to reduce electrical injuries and fatalities to zero. Dan Seguin 03:16 So Rebecca, here's today's big question. How has the electrical safety authorities strategically evolved, its approach to safety in this modern and increasingly electric world? Special guest, Josie Erzetic, Chief regulatory officer and General Counsel for the Electrical Safety Authority is here with us today to help ground us with a greater understanding of the dangers behind electricity, and how we can protect ourselves, our loved ones, and our colleagues from injury. Hey Josie, Welcome to the show. Perhaps you can start us off by telling us more about your organization, your role as a regulator, and what fuels your passion for working there? Josie Erzetic 04:12 Thanks so much, Daniel. I'm really happy to be on the show. So Thanks for inviting me. I guess what I'd start off with is just talking about ESA's mission, and that is to promote electrical safety across Ontario. So in fact, our vision is an Ontario where people can live work and play safe from electrical harm. So we're talking about electrical safety at home, as well as in the workplace. So how do you do that? We basically have carriage four regulations in the province. So the first one being the one people probably associate most which with us, which is the Ontario Electrical Safety Code. The second one is that we license all of the LEC's and ME's, that's master electricians and licensed electrical contractors in the province. Thirdly, we regulate electrical product safety. And finally, we regulate the safety of all licensed distribution companies in the province. And that would be, for example, Ottawa Hydro. So we regulate safety in that regard as well. And we're constantly just scanning the market for new areas that we perceive present an electrical safety risk to consumers to Ontarians. And we promote education, electrical safety education. So what what fuels my passion you asked? It's basically that safety and consumer protection mandate, I find it very, very meaningful work to do this. So that's what gets me up in the mornings. And I'm really fortunate to just work with a really, really great group of people. Rebecca Schwartz 06:01 with safety and risk mitigation top of mind how the accidents increased or decreased in the last five to 10 years. And how do you measure this? Josie Erzetic 06:10 it's a really good question. And I'm very happy to report that over the last 10 years, overall, the state of electrical safety in Ontario has improved. There's been a 42% reduction in critical injuries that result as a result of electrical incidents, and there's been a 30% reduction in electrical fires. Overall, as well over the past decade, there's been an 11% decrease in electrical related fatalities. When it comes to power lines, specifically, there has been an 8% decrease in the last 10 years in power line related fatalities. So how do we know this? we track all the data. So we look very carefully at electrical fatalities, as well as critical injuries. And we really sort of hone in on where they're coming from. So I'll give you an example. For example, dump truck drivers a number of years ago, we recognized that there were a lot of electrical contact with power lines as the result of dump truck drivers keeping the box on their truck in an elevated position. So as a result of that we really focused in on that problem and started to do a lot of work with that industry. So what did we do? we created a whole campaign around, look up, look out. So we posted these types of signs all around construction areas, we posted power line safety posters. We delivered safety talks to industry associations to students to construction workers. And we worked in partnership with the IHSA, which is the infrastructure Health and Safety Association. And we also translated some of our safety materials into other languages, including French, Portuguese, Punjabi, to make sure that people understood the message. And as a result of it, what's happened is that the number of powerline contacts from that industry has decreased by 28%, when you compare five year periods. So having said all that, there's still a lot of work to be done. And we're again tracking data to look at where we might see other risk areas so that we can really focus in on those. Dan Seguin 08:53 Now let's move on from data to reports. I know you recently released an annual safety report. What is that telling you? Josie Erzetic 09:01 So our annual safety report is called the Ontario electrical safety report or OESR. It's the only document of this kind in Canada. And what it really does is help us identify emerging risk areas. So this this last month, we released our 20th edition. And what it's telling us on the homeowner side certainly is we've seen an increase in power line contacts reported from the public. So this is not what I was referring to earlier in terms of fatalities per se, but it's just an increase in the numbers of contacts, which of course could lead to serious injury or fatality, so we want to really think about data like this and try to send our safety message to the public. So where are we seeing contact? we're seeing it in areas like tree trimming or cutting. We're seeing it in things like kite flying or home improvement. work. For example, if you think about it, you're working around your home, you're moving around a ladder, let's say, to clean your eavestroughs, anything like that. And we're potentially seeing power line contact as a result, yard renovations. So we noticed that, especially during this pandemic period, where people are doing a lot of their own renovation work, there's a potential there for power line contact. So what we've done is we're shifting a lot of our campaigns online, and we're sending out messages like stop, look and live, we find that people are going online, when they're thinking about doing renovations when they're hiring contractors to help with some of those renovations. So we want to send out those messages that make sure you're aware of powerlines, you're aware of what you're doing, and that you stay far enough away. Another example is pools and pool clearances or hot tubs. So in that sense, we've sent out messages saying make sure you keep yourself and your equipment, for example, pool skimmers, which can be quite long, far away from overhead power lines, and our recommendation is at least three meters away. So that's on the homeowner side. And if we want to switch it now to the work side, on the occupational side, I point to the fall of 2019. Were in the span of about 24 hours, we were notified tragically of two critical injuries and two deaths as a result of powerline contact. And those were four separate incidents. So one was a crane construction worker. The second one was arborists that were it was a team of two arborists that were involved in tree trimming. The third one involved a TTC worker. So that's the Toronto Transit Commission in Toronto. And, and the fourth one was a drill operator. So this was a really tragic day where you had a number of incidents just occurring in very close temporal proximity. But it was also a catalyst for us to think about redesigning our power line campaign. And so what we're doing as a result is we have campaigns twice annually so that we make sure it's at the start of construction season, as well as in the fall months. We're also working closely with the Ministry of Labor to understand all of the circumstances behind those incidents. And we also work with our industry partners to make sure that we educate workers who are at high risk, and I mentioned arborist as an example. So we want to again focus in on those occupations that we think are at high risk of powerline contact. We've also observed a rise in incidents involving young workers. And as a result, we have specialists who go to the colleges to ensure that students young workers involved in things like heavy machinery operation in the arborist industry, get the information about the potential hazard around power line contact, so to ensure that they're well educated on that. And we also encourage any companies. So anyone who is listening to this podcast, who you know works in a construction related area, if you want to give us a call about our spring startup sessions, we're happy to send somebody out to educate your workers about the potential hazards around powerline contact. And you can do this by just emailing us at ESA.communications@esasafe.com. And we'd be happy to do a spring startup session for folks. Rebecca Schwartz 14:11 Thanks, Josie. We'll make sure to include that in our show notes. So we read that the Electrical Safety Authority is striving to be a modern risk based electrical safety regulator for Ontarians. What exactly does that mean? Josie Erzetic 14:25 Yeah, it's a great question. And I often think about that, myself, what does it mean to be to be a modern regulator, so it can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, but I'll sort of give you the key elements of it for us. So it really, it means to us to use something that we call risk based oversight. It means leveraging technology and really fostering the capabilities of our people. So when we say risk based oversight, as you can imagine, trying to be a safety regulator. The complex world we live in today in a in a province, as populous as the province of Ontario is a difficult task, you can't be everywhere all at once. So we use risk base to really prioritize and focus on the highest risk electrical installations, we actually have an algorithm that helps us understand which installations are the high risk ones, and we prioritize those and have a whole system for prioritization. So we're basically putting the most time in the highest risk areas. Along those lines were also through. And we did this through the COVID period, we're really piloting the use of what we call remote inspections. So that in other words, rather than an inspector attending at each installation, there's the possibility for a licensed electrical contractor to send in photos or videos. And we put job aids around that and given instruction to the industry about what we're looking for. So again, so low risk installation, and in the inspectors discretion, they can accept photos or videos, which you can imagine, makes it more efficient for us doing our job. And it's also, you know, potentially an efficiency value to the contractor as well to submit photos rather than having somebody attend in person. So that's another thing where we're moving forward as a modern regulator, I'd say, in terms of leveraging technology, we've really moved digital, I think, as have a lot of companies at this time. So example, where we used to have all our master exams happening in person, they can now happen virtually. So we have a system where we can do virtual proctoring of exams, so you can do your exam online, we can do online training, which is either synchronous or asynchronous, which is which is terrific for folks. If it's synchronous, then you might have an instructor with you asynchronous, you're watching videos, or you're going through PowerPoint on on your own time. So it's, it's leveraging technology for us, but also for the folks that we service. And another big thing we've done is our plan review group, which looks at electrical drawings, for complex electrical installations. So say, for example, for a car manufacturer or a large industry, rather than having these clients submit hard copies of complicated electrical plans, they can now do so digitally through our electronic plan review portal. So that's something again, that's very good for clients and good for efficiency purposes. For us, we also have a new scheduling tool that provides customers better notice of when an inspector is going to arrive, which is again, a real win from a from an efficiency standpoint, and we're now launching a project that would allow master electricians and licensed electrical contractors to submit documents online, so time saving there. And the last area I'd say is focusing on fostering new skills. So where our employees need to augment skills or develop new skills, we're very supportive of continuing education and, and skills broadening. And we're also looking at where do we have gaps? Where is technology? Or is our sector evolving, and we need to ensure we're evolving with it. So an example I give you there is what we've just been talking about, which is around data analytics. So we've recognized that we need to improve our capability in that regard. And as a result, we've hired a couple of new people to help us in that regard. And we're also augmenting skills of folks that we already have working for us. I think I'd be remiss if I didn't mention diversity and inclusion. I think a lot of employers are thinking about that right now, as are we. And so we do have what we call an idea strategy, which is inclusion, diversity, equity and accessibility. And I think that is a very important part of being a modern regulator. And I would say that, you know, I'm really happy to report that 80% of our executive team is now women. So I think we're making some real advances in that area, but you know, I'll be honest with you, I'd like to see more so We're continuing to work on that. So I guess that's in summary, what I really see is being a modern regulator. Dan Seguin 20:08 That's very interesting. Thanks, Josie. Now, wondering if you could tell us about your organization's new corporate strategy at a high level? Can you walk us through the four strategic goals and why they're so important? Josie Erzetic 20:23 Yeah. So it's, it's a very good question. And some of these goals we have maintained from previous years and others we've really expanded upon. So I would say the, the first of the four main goals is really safety. And that's one that's always been a focus of our organization. But having said that, we can all see the rapid evolution of technology in the sector. So we're really maintaining a close focus on that, and working with industry partners in that regard. So examples I give you there are things like the adoption of electric vehicles or energy storage technologies. So in the example I give you is that I'm currently sitting on a council that the Ministry of Transportation has set up around Evie adoption. So we want to participate on councils like that, that look at this one is on the electrification of the transportation sector. So that's an important part important pillar in the strategy, and an important part of what we're doing. So we do things like we anticipate new risk areas, we have something called the harm lifecycle, which really has a scanning the market, looking at potential for new technology, new harms that we should be monitoring and assessing. And then we decide, is this a high risk area that we would like to pilot a program in as an example? Is this something we should be partnering on? Like the example I just gave you with what MTO is doing? Is this something that we want to continue as a program, once we have achieved our goals in it? Is it something that we exit from so we have a whole lifecycle and how we look at risk. So I think that's an important part of the new strategy around safety. And then compliance, that's also something that we have carried over from our previous strategy. But I think, if anything, I would say we're almost amping up what we're doing in this area. So we work closely with our licensed communities, for example, the licensed electrical contractor community, and we educate the public in terms of ensuring that they hire a licensed electrical contractor, rather than, for example, going to unlicensed individuals. And we refer to that as the underground economy. So I would say that this new strategy really emphasizes the importance of getting at that underground economy or, you know, I'd like to put it as like, just let's take a bite out of that underground economy, let's reduce what's going on there. So we want to educate homeowners to not hire unlicensed individuals. And we will take enforcement action, where it's required against those people who are working illegally and not taking out licenses or permits because there are real safety and consumer protection risks around that type of work. And we've got some real active campaigns around that. For example, we have a Kijiji Blitz, where we are actively looking for people advertising services illegally on Kijiji and forcing those to come off Kijiji. Our third goal is operating with organizational agility. And I think, as a lot of companies are doing today, and as we talked about earlier, we're trying to leverage technology to make ourselves more efficient, and reduce, you know, burden for the licensees. So whether those are licensed electrical contractors, or LDCs, such as Hydro Ottawa, we're trying to reduce burden for our clients. And I think the last area is really around public accountability. We want to be seen as a publicly accountable transparent regulator So we do regular surveys of our customers to identify areas for improvement. You know, what are our strengths? But what are our weaknesses? And how can we do better? I think ESA has a culture of continuous improvement, which we're very proud of. Rebecca Schwartz 25:18 Thanks for the reference to the underground economy, it seems like there's a black market for everything, even electrical services. Has there been a story that's stuck with you in regards to an electrical incident resulting in a serious injury that could have been prevented? Or is there a safety tip that you wish everybody knew? Josie Erzetic 25:37 Yeah. So thank you for that question. And something that is real top of mind for me lately, is something called lichtenburg generators. So we've had a number of serious injuries and some deaths involving these devices. And my safety tip is stop using these devices. They are devices that they can either be made. So people were seeing people doing them as do it yourself projects, or they can be purchased. However, they're not a product that's either approved or certified by any certification body, and they're extremely dangerous. So we're aware of at least five fatalities and one critical injury that have taken place over the last three years. And a couple of those fatalities occurred earlier this year. And what these things are, I don't know if you've ever heard of them before, but they are used to create art. So they're like a wood burning type device. So you create it by burning designs into wood or acrylic. But they're a lot of them are homemade. And people take parts out of microwaves, for example, to put these things together. And they have a lot of accessible wiring components. So they're very unsafe to handle. And so and particularly on social media forums, we're seeing that individuals are posting videos, and they're instructing each other on how to build these devices. So right now we have a very comprehensive public safety awareness campaign to educate the public about the dangers of using Lichtenberg generators. And we're specifically targeting that sort of do it yourself, community and those who are interested in things like woodworking so what we're finding it's primarily men aged between 20 and 40, to not carry out this type of hobby and not use these types of devices. And if anyone is aware of advertising of this kind of advice, we would encourage them to call us at 1-877-esa-safe or visit us online. And and make us aware of this because we are asking, particularly YouTube to try to get these How To Videos removed. So the safety tip again, is don't use these devices. They're very dangerous. Dan Seguin 28:20 Now your organization has a vision, a big vision to create an Ontario where people can live, work and play safe from electrical harm. During the pandemic, have there been any particular challenges or opportunities in achieving this? Josie Erzetic 28:37 Yeah, it absolutely, because as I'm sure you both have found, people were at home. That means, among other things, a lot of on at home online shopping. So we want to make sure that people are very aware that electrical products that you're looking at, make sure they've been approved by a recognized certification body. So from both a safety awareness point of view, but also a consumer protection point of view, we want to make sure that people are buying approved products, as you both know. Online, it's so it's a global problem. You can buy products from anywhere in the world now and have them shipped directly to your house. So again, as a regulator, it's hard to be everywhere all at once. So the best thing is to have consumers aware themselves that when you're buying electrical products, you will want to ensure that it's either CSA certified UL certified, that you've got an approval mark on that product and you look for it when you're buying it on these online platforms. We share jurisdiction here with Health Canada, so I know Health Canada is all so concerned about this problem. So what we've done is we've set up a task force and we include ourselves on it, Health Canada, our own ministry, provincially, which is the ministry of government and Consumer Services. We've got manufacturers working with us distributors, consumer advocates, we've got bricks and mortar stores as part of the task force. But we also have online retailers. And we're all discussing the problem of consumer awareness, consumer protection and safety, because it's an all our interest to make sure people are safe. And we're putting resources into follow up on any reports we see, or we receive about unsafe consumer products. So we have been and we will follow up on 100% of reports we receive where somebody says, Look, I bought this thing it's unapproved, you know, I found that it sparked or there was a flash, when I tried to plug it in, we will follow up on all these things. We're also really enhancing consumer consumer awareness efforts, especially around this time of year, we're heading into holiday shopping season. And so we do have a holiday safety campaign. That's where we see a lot of people online, a lot of people looking at electrical products. So this campaign really focuses on consumer safety. And this year, in particular, we're encouraging folks who, you know, may be doing a lot of holiday decorating, they may be getting together to do this type of thing. So they're putting more emphasis on it this year, I don't know maybe more so than last year, when nobody came over. We're saying, you know, look closely at your your lights, right, your holiday lights that you're buying, make sure they're approved, make sure you use them correctly. Make sure if you have old ones that you're digging out of your basement, that there's no damage to cords, so just you know, be careful. Rebecca Schwartz 32:04 Josie, you mentioned amateur DIY is like the dangerous Lichtenberg wood burning video on YouTube. Has there been other instances where the Electrical Safety Authority has seen an increase in electrical accidents? Or what about new areas of concern? Josie Erzetic 32:20 Yeah, it's, it's a really, it's a good question. And again, particularly through this pandemic period, where people are looking for new hobbies, or, you know, they're at home, they're thinking about ways to renovate their house, maybe they cannot find a contractor or someone says to them, okay, it'll be months and months before somebody can get your house. So they just, they feel like, Oh, well, I could I want to do it myself. Right. So in that sense, we really remind homeowners consumers, that electricity is something that is dangerous, that you need to hire a professional to do it, there is the potential homeowners can do their own work. But in our view, it is better to hire a professional because there are safety risks inherent in the work. If homeowners are doing it themselves, then we certainly would remind them that they must take out the proper notifications with ESA, because that then has an inspector coming to their house to inspect the work. So at the very least, you want to ensure that happens. But we would say primarily, look, leave it to the professionals. So hire a licensed electrical contractor. And only a licensed electrical contracting business can be hired to do this. So when you're hiring people, we also remind folks to ask to see the accurate slash ESA license number. So that should be ever it should be on the estimates you get. It should be on their their trucks, their business cards, their ultimate invoice if you're not seeing that you could be hiring somebody that's in that underground economy that we talked about earlier. So be very careful about who you're hiring. And in this regard, obviously, ESA puts out a lot of its own information. But we also now are partnering with the Mike Holmes group. And you'll probably remember Mike Holmes He's done a lot of work on television. He does a lot of work also through social media. So he has a very large following. And so as a result, we're able to amplify the message by working with that group with Mike Holmes and his family to really get out that message that this is something maybe you don't want to take on on your own because of the safety risks. So certainly, both Mike his son, Mike Jr, and Sherry have posted both on YouTube as well as their other social channels about the importance when you're thinking about renovating to hire a licensed electrical contractor, and also the importance of ensuring you ensuring that you have ESA inspect the work. So you want to make sure at the end of the job, you get an ESA certificate of acceptance when the job's complete. So you know, it's done right. The other thing we've been noticing recently, and we've really made an effort to get the word out on this, so maybe I'll mention it here on this podcast as well, is the difference between a licensed electrical contractor, a master electrician, or what we call a C of Q, Certificate of Qualification holder, a certified electrician. Sometimes people think, oh, this person is an electrician, I'll just hire them directly know, who you need to hire is a licensed electrical contractor, because they are a business. And they were required by us to have $2 million in liability insurance, as well as the WSIB insurance coverage. So how this works is the licensed electrical contractor employs Master electricians who are responsible for overseeing the work of certified electricians, so you don't hire those folks directly. You hire the LEC, and it's important for consumer protection, because that way, if there's an injury, God forbid, or something happens in your home, then there is insurance that covers that. And the homeowner, him or herself is not responsible. So we're really working to increase awareness on the differences between the licensed electrical contracting businesses, which are who you hire, versus the master electricians or the certified electricians. I think that's very important. Rebecca Schwartz 37:17 Great tips Josie and gotta love Mike Holmes, perhaps now a little bit more broadly, pandemic times or not what are some of the biggest challenges and opportunities that are facing the Electrical Safety Authority right now in general? Josie Erzetic 37:32 I think I I go back to the underground economy and underground work that we we talked about earlier. So and I think we mentioned that it's just it's such a big problem, not just for our sector. But overall, I think, Rebecca, that you mentioned that you can, you know, almost buy anything in the underground market now. So you really, I think Statistics Canada estimates the underground economy is over $16 billion. That's with a B in Ontario alone. So it's just it's a big problem. And we as I said, I'd like to start a new slogan, like, let's take a bite out of the underground economy, like we really need to ensure with something like electricity, there are such safety and consumer protection issues, that this is not something you want to fool around with and leave to someone who's non licensed and not take out proper permits in this area. There's just too much at risk both with your personal safety and the safety of your home. There could be a fire that results from this. So what are we doing to really tackle this i and Daniel, I think you mentioned it earlier too. It's the Kijiji work so we're actually working a lot of people go online to find contractors. We are online and looking at those ads on Kijiji, and we will send notification to advertisers who we think are unlicensed businesses offering these types of services. If we don't get a voluntary response to take down that ad, Kijiji will forcibly remove it so big shout out to Kijiji for working with us and taking those ads down. And and if we still get repeat offenders, you wouldn't believe this people will come back and advertise again. We're prosecuting them. So we now have 20 charges pending before courts. So I would say that number one consumers do not hire unlicensed people. Be careful about who you're hiring online. We're out there we're working on it, but be careful as to see those licenses people who are doing this work illegally. I would say we are working hard to pull your ads off. Do not do this come into the licensed community. If you want to do this work, then get a license and do it properly. or we will also be looking to prosecute. So we this is important. The other thing we noticed with a high level of EV adoption, we undertook an EV charger Blitz. So we noticed that some EV charging systems that you put in your home in order to charge your vehicle were being done by unlicensed individuals and being done without permits. So we had our inspectors go out and inspect and alert both homeowners because sometimes homeowners don't know that was put in improperly and alert us to where we saw, charters being put in without permits are being put in by unlicensed contractors. And as a result, we've noticed this the period that we were looking at it this year, compared to last year, we've had almost a doubling of the amount of notifications that were taken out. So it makes a big difference when people know that we're out there. We're inspecting these things, and we expect them to be done properly and safety. And we also have an anonymous online reporting tool. So I would even say to your listeners, if you think there could be unlicensed activity going on somewhere, please let us know about it. So you can go online, you will, it's anonymous, but we do appreciate details. So we can do the follow up and investigate, you go to esasafe.com. And we found that this has been a very effective tool since we launched it in April 2020. To get reports, and I will tell people that we do follow up on 100% of the leads we get about unlicensed activity. Dan Seguin 41:47 Okay, we've covered challenges and opportunities. What about the rise of digital communication? Has it changed your organization's ability to communicate safety messaging? Josie Erzetic 41:59 Yeah, I'd say it, it really, really has. And we've shifted a lot of our educational campaigns on to social media, because as we alluded to earlier, we do find that is where people are looking, for example, to hire contractors, they're looking for ideas, say on renovation, you know, people will follow certain interior designers, they they will follow renovators on things like Instagram, or they'll follow them on Twitter. So we're leveraging platforms like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Pinterest, Google, Google, YouTube, all of those, because we find that that's where people are going now. But we also find there are potential dangers lurking there as well. And so we really have to monitor and be on top of those. So I'll give you an example of something that was a tic toc challenge that that we were made aware of in early 2020. And this was a challenge where that was issued over tick tock and it was basically about plugging in a phone charger. And then using either was a penny or a nickel or something to drag across the exposed prongs. And it results in in smoke and sparks and but it can also result in fire. So it this is obviously a really dangerous activity. So we became aware of it on social media. And then we use social as well as traditional media in order to educate, you know, basically parents and kids who were doing this, that this was unsafe, and they shouldn't be doing it. And we that was a very successful campaign. And we had more than 15 million views on that. And so we're very, very grateful. And, and we actually we won some awards for what we were able to do with with social media just in terms of identifying a risk and then educating people that they shouldn't be carrying engaging in this activity. And and I guess I should say to that we're also we're leveraging some new new opportunities, like a podcast like what you guys are doing here, which I applaud you for, by the way, we're trying to do the same thing. Rebecca Schwartz 44:21 Now Josie, our listeners have made it this far. And now they want to know some ways that they can keep their electrical safety knowledge up to date. How can they do that? Josie Erzetic 44:30 Yeah. So one way to do it is exactly what the two of you are doing with your podcast. We have our own podcast and it's really focused on electrical safety. So it's called Grounded in Ontario, and you can find it on our website at ESAsafe.com/podcast, but you can also go to typical platforms where you'd find podcasts like Apple podcasts or Spotify and located there. So we have new episodes coming out basically monthly. And we talk about things like what we've talked about here and more. So we've had an episode on pools and hot tubs and safety issues relating to that those EV supply equipment. So electrical vehicle chargers, which we also alluded to here, we also talk about arc fault and ground fault circuit interrupters. And we have a new episode that's just coming out on the underground economy, which we've also talked about. So that's a great place to get information. Also, our website has a lot of information and talks about things like do it yourself, renovations, talks about holiday safety talks about home and work safety. So I would, you know, recommend listeners go there. And I'd also always encourage people that if there are safety concerns, or you want to report activity, please go to our website, or please call us and I can give you the number, it's 1-877-372-7233. So we'd love to hear from people. Dan Seguin 46:12 Okay, as it relates to your podcast Grounded in Ontario, I'll make sure that we post a link in our show notes, well Josie How about you close us off with some rapid fire questions? Are you ready? Josie Erzetic 46:26 I'm ready. Dan Seguin 46:27 Okay. What is your favorite word? Josie Erzetic 46:30 I have to say I, I you know, obviously top of mind for me. workwise is safety. But just one of my favorite things to think about is also chocolate. Dan Seguin 46:40 Now, what is one thing you can't live without? Josie Erzetic 46:45 Chocolate? Dan Seguin 46:45 What is something that challenges you Josie Erzetic 46:48 with Rebecca, my love of chocolate? Because then I have to make sure that I you know, keep exercising or something? Dan Seguin 46:55 If you could have one superpower, what would it be? Josie Erzetic 47:00 I think the superpower question is always a really is a really great one. And I always I like picking flying for this one. Because then I figure it makes the commuting easier. And it would just be would it be great to just zip to your cottage fast or you know, zip to Europe or something. Especially these times where you know, travel is so difficult. Dan Seguin 47:22 Josie This is my favorite one here. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self. What would you tell her? Josie Erzetic 47:29 Okay, this one, this one I am going to answer very seriously, I would say something that I say to my my kids now who are 19 and 16. And that is believe in yourself. Believe in yourself believe in what you can do. You know, trust, trust yourself. So that that I think is very important for young people to remember. Dan Seguin 47:53 And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in this sector? Josie Erzetic 47:59 Um, so I would say it's it's the pace of change. I just think our sector the energy sector is just fascinating. Right now we've talked about things like electrification of transportation, and the speed of the adoption there. We think of things like energy storage, the growth of renewables, I think of distribute, you know, distributed energy resources. I think it's fascinating. We're all concerned about climate change. So we're thinking about how we can reduce our carbon footprint, what, what role does energy play in that? What What will it look like 2030 4050 years from now where we might have entire communities that are doing things like net metering, we might have, you know, renewable generation, within a smaller community, or just you'll have solar panels on your roof, you'll have an energy storage system in your basement, you'll have an Eevee charging outside. So I think that is fascinating. I think energy is so fundamental to how we live and maybe how we'll deal with fundamental global issues like the climate crisis. And so ESA is part of that. I think it's so exciting, because you need to have all of that working safely. So the role we play is fascinating. So that's what I just find hugely fascinating and challenging about our sector. Rebecca Schwartz 49:25 Well, Josie, we reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thanks so much for joining Dan and I today. We hope you had fun. Josie Erzetic 49:33 I had a great time with you guys. Thanks so much. Really appreciate it. Rebecca Schwartz 49:38 I sure hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. If so please head over to our iTunes SUBSCRIBE And leave us a review. Dan Seguin 49:46 Now For show notes and bonus content visit hydroottawa.com/thinkenergy. Also, be sure to tell your friends and colleagues about us. Thank you for listening.

Without pollinators like bees and butterflies, our food supply suffers drastically. It's incredible to think these small insects play such a large role in our existence. With climate change, increased pesticide use, and other limiting factors, pollinator populations are declining drastically. It may seem unlikely, but utilities like Hydro Ottawa are actually suited to help restore the environments these pollinators need to thrive. Relive our conversation on how this is possible with restoration ecologist Tracey Etwell of the Canadian Wildlife Federation and Meaghan McDonald, lake planning and shoreline stewardship coordinator for the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority. Related links Tracey Etwell, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/traceyetwell/ Meaghan McDonald, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meaghan-mcdonald-83b08083/ Canadian Wildlife Foundation Website: https://cwf-fcf.org/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/canadian-wildlife-federation/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/cwf_fcf Rideau Valley Conservation Authority Twitter: https://twitter.com/RideauValleyCA Website: https://www.rvca.ca/ --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript Dan Seguin 00:06 This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co-host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome to the summer rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy days of summer, we're bringing back some blasts from our podcast past. We'll be reintroducing some of our most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest. There's been a lot of talk about the future electrification of energy on the path to net zero. The episodes we've selected are very future focused with themes around green innovation, renewable energy, and our impact on the environment. So I hope you enjoy the summer rewind edition of today's episode. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back on August 15th to kick off another exciting season. Cheers. Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. On today's show, we're going to talk about the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees literally. Did you know that across North America, the populations of monarch butterflies, bees and other pollinators are in a steep decline due to herbicides, pesticides, climate change, and a reduction in natural pollinator habitats. Pollinators are responsible for a third of the world's food supply, so they are extremely vital to our existence in Canada. There are more than 1000 species of pollinating animals that are responsible for billions of dollars worth of Canadian farm produce flowers, and ecosystems that rely on pollination. In short, without pollinators, food supply would suffer drastically. It may seem like an unlikely union, but utilities like Hydro Ottawa are ideally suited to restore these environments, thanks to a number of utility corridors and properties in their service territories, not to mention their kilometers of power lines, and right aways along roadsides. Moreover, vegetation along utility corridors are compatible with these types of vegetation necessary to support pollinators. In 2019, Hydro Ottawa began civil construction of its largest ever municipal transformer station in the south end of Ottawa situated on 24 acres of land since the new transformer station requires only five acres of property, Hydro Ottawa partnered with the City of Ottawa, Rideau Valley Conservation Authority, and the Canadian Wildlife Federation to create one of the largest pollinator meadows of its kind in Eastern Ontario, adjacent to this future station. The agreement means that 15 acres will be dedicated to a pollinator meadow, which is scheduled for seeding. In the spring of 2021, a four acre tree reforestation area was reforested in 2020, with 2750 trees thanks to the Rideau River Conservation Authority. So here's today's big question. What goes into a successful pollinator meadow? And how can we as an industry, and as ordinary citizens help the movement by building more pollinator meadows? Maybe in our own backyards? I have two guests joining me today for this podcast. My first guest is Tracey Etwell, a Restoration Ecologist with the Canadian Wildlife Federation. Tracey supports the Right of Way program, which helps restore pollinator meadows for monarch butterflies and other pollinators in Eastern Ontario. My second guest is Meaghan McDonald, Lake Planning and Shoreline Stewardship Coordinator for the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority. There are 36 Conservation Authorities in Ontario responsible for furthering the restoration, development and management of watershed and they're now soil resources across the province. Thank you both for joining me today. So, Tracey, let's start with the Canadian Wildlife Federation. What are pollinators? What important role do pollinators play? And what does pollinator habitat look like? Tracey Etwell 05:21 Great question, Dan. So as a group, there are many species that are pollinators. Many people aren't aware there's things like native bees, flies, moths, butterflies, beetles, and even our hummingbirds are pollinators. But when we talk about our pollinator habitat in our project, we're really focusing on the insects, such as our native bees, flies and butterflies, and pollinator habitat varies depending on each species. But all insect pollinators benefit from open meadows full of wildflowers and grasses. And these native flowers provide the pollen and the nectar and the vegetation in general for the species to hide and nest and over winter. And also, some of these flowers are very specific hosts for butterflies and moths, where they require that specific plant for their lifecycle. Dan Seguin 06:04 Now, this question is for both- do habitats vary depending on where they're located in the province and country? If so, what's unique about Eastern Ontario? Wondering, Meaghan, if you can expand on this? And then what about you, Tracey? Meaghan McDonald 06:21 Yeah, sure. So obviously, our country is massive. So there's a big variety of habitats, we've got mountains, prairies, plaines, forests, wetlands, all sorts of things. I think what's kind of unique about Eastern Ontario, maybe in comparison to our southern counterpart there is that we do have still quite a lot of natural areas available to us. The development pressures out here are are building just as they are in the southern region. But I think in Eastern Ontario, there's a really good opportunity to sort of preserve what we already have and protect the resources that we already have as that development occurs. So I think that's kind of a unique feature out here. Tracey Etwell 07:02 So our focus on in Eastern Ontario is based on two things. One is that the threatened monarch butterfly range in Canada is heavily focused in Ontario and Quebec. So obviously, we're overlapping that region. And secondly, our funder, which is the Ontario Trillium Foundation has sponsored our work in the Eastern Ontario region. There are also tons and tons of rights of way here which we define as roadways, transmission lines and pipelines. And as Meaghan said, we do have habitat across Canada. And the management of this vegetationcalong with rights of way is compatible with meadow habitat, which benefits these pollinators. And we're hoping that rights of way meadow projects will catch on across Canada. And we're busy creating a national network of rights of way managers to encourage meadow habitat restoration across the country. Dan Seguin 07:47 Okay, Tracey, I know that there are many factors that are contributing to the decline in pollinators and their habitats. Based on your experience, what are those reasons? And is there one in particular, that's been identified as the most destructive force? Tracey Etwell 08:05 Yeah, so you're correct. There are many forces that contribute to this. The biggest one is thought to be the loss of habitat, which is consistent with a lot of species. When land is developed, that habitat is lost. Also, these insects need large quarters of habitat to travel around. So when these pieces get disconnected, it's harder for these pollinators to find that habitat. Also, in Eastern Ontario, the invasive plant species, while personal, which some people may be aware of is another threat. It's spread rapidly throughout the area and is out competing or native wildflowers. It's hard to control. In many places they spray and frequent mowing, or the ways that control it. Then, so when that's done controlled, then those native species that would have been there are now removed. So we're hoping once wild parsnip can be under control, better meadow habitat restoration can support these populations. Dan Seguin 08:59 Back to you, Meaghan, can you tell us about the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority and what types of stewardship projects you're involved with? Meaghan McDonald 09:10 Sure. So in partnership with our Foundation Branch, the Rideau Valley Conservation Foundation, we offer a number of stewardship programs that are really aimed at largely private landowners, but also municipalities and public landowners as well. Our main one would really be our forestation and tree planting program. We plant about 200,000 trees just in the Rideau watershed alone every year. We also have a shoreline naturalization program, which helps a lot of shoreline landowners create sort of a natural buffer along their waterways. We have a lot of lakes and rivers in our watershed that we're fortunate to have so we like to help help landowners protect what they have on their property. We also have a rural clean water grant program which is aimed at helping farmers do clean water projects on their property. And then, in addition to that, we also do some stream monitoring, wetland restoration, invasive species removal, and garbage cleanups, especially in the City of Ottawa with our city stream launch program Dan Seguin 10:17 With respect to pollinator meadows, Meaghan, what can you tell us about your organization's role? Do you bring your regional expertise about Eastern Ontario's environment and its native plants? Meaghan McDonald 10:29 Yeah, so we don't have a huge focus on pollinators in our organization; we've historically been a lot more focused on water quality protection projects, which is why it's so important for us to have partners like the Canadian Wildlife Federation to partner with on on projects like this. So we don't have a major role in the pollinator project realm. Where we do bring our regional expertise is more for tree planting, shoreline naturalization, so your trees and your shrubs and items like that through our stewardship programs, we also partner with our nursery or nurseries or suppliers, the Ferguson Tree Nursery, which is located down in Kemptville. And they've been working lately with us and a few other groups in the in the Ottawa Valley on expanding their product line, away from just trees so that they also can be a source of native pollinator species as well in Eastern Ontario. Right now, it's really aimed at potted plants for landowners if they want to, you know, create a little habitat pollinator habitat in their own property. But they are looking at expanding that so that they can be a local source source for native seed as well. It's very important that we kind of keep that local seed source in the area, because when you are bringing in plants from different regions they are sometimes not quite as adapted to our current climate conditions as as, say, Southern Ontario or other parts of the country. So yeah, really, The Canadian Wildlife Federation is is kind of the expert on this project that we're working with and we're very happy to have their their expertise onboard. Dan Seguin 12:17 You both are playing integral parts in the 15 acre pollinator meadows that Hydro Ottawa is building in the south end of the city. I understand it's one of the largest in eastern Ontario. Tracy, why are utilities a key player in Canadian Wildlife Federation's pollinator recovery efforts? Tracey Etwell 12:40 Oh, so CWF was very excited to be partnering with Hydro Ottawa and RVCA on this initiative, which is one of the largest projects as you mentioned. So utilities are a key player in our pollinator restoration efforts as they maintain over 160,000 kilometres of transmission lines; 1000s of generation stations across Canada, which has huge potential for pollinator habitat restoration, also their linear design are relatively easy for pollinators to find. Since utilities need to control the woody species over the long term along these facilities. It provides a great place for the wildflowers and grasses to grow. And it provides a great opportunity for you utilities to just demonstrate environmental leadership and provide the habitat. That's that's a win win for the utilities and the pollinators. Dan Seguin 13:27 And now for you, Meaghan, what kind of follow up work does Rideau Valley Conservation Authority do for a project like Hydro's 15 acre pollinator meadow? Meaghan McDonald 13:40 Yeah, so um, for this project, we're actually already going to be on site for a related tree planting project. So it's kind of why we are involved in the in the pollinator side, because it does take a little bit of work to establish native pollinators seed, many of the native seeds, for example, they might take one, two, maybe more years to germinate, and really a few years before they really establish and take over. So it's really important that we manage that area for invasive species so that they don't take over or that an opportunity- opportunistic species, like Tracey mentioned, poison parsnip, for example, or Manitoba Maple seedlings that they don't move in. So this will be done really through annual to semi-annual mowing of the site. So we wait till the until the right time to sort of do a mow so that we can remove some of the unwanted species, allowing the native ones to really come up. And we'll probably also do a little bit of spot removal of the undesirable plants as that as they as they come up as well. And we'll do some monitoring as well. Plots throughout the meadow that'll let us sort of measure how well the native plants are really coming along and at what rates which will be great because it will be a great learning experience for us. Since we don't personally have a lot of experience, it'll just kind of be a great way to see what works and what doesn't. And what goes into a project like this so that hopefully we can be involved with more in the future. Dan Seguin 15:12 The Rideau Valley Conservation Authority has also planted 2750 trees on four acres at this site. Meaghan, is the reforestation connected to the meadow? Or is it a separate but complementary initiative? Meaghan McDonald 15:30 Yeah, I think it's kind of it's kind of cool that it is on the same site. The trees were planted last spring. And they kind of form a little bit of a barrier around the outside area of the pollinator garden, or the prop line or inside the pollinator meadow. So it's, it does create a nice barrier between the meadow and the adjacent highway and adjacent farmer and farm field. So it's going to create a nice little windbreak. It will also help with some of the salt spray that's coming off the highway. And these trees were really planted as part as a compensation for the station that's being built there. And we found that having the combination of the trees as the compensation and also the opportunity for the pollinator habitat was just such a great opportunity at this particular site, just because we don't so we don't really want to get trees planted too close to the station, especially with the the tornado that came through a few years ago. So it's nice to have those trees at a distance, but also have that nice low growing easy to maintain pollinator meadow in the areas directly surrounding it. So it's a nice combination there. Dan Seguin 16:45 Now understanding that without pollinators, Canada's food supply is threatened. Tracey, how is the Canadian Wildlife Federation building resources and support for these projects? Tracey Etwell 16:58 Yes, so the Canadian Wildlife Federation is committed to supporting pollinators for both our diverse biodiversity and our food supply. As you mentioned, many of the nutritious plants we eat such as fruits and vegetables rely on insect pollination, and 90% of the world's flowering plants rely on insect pollination. So it's critical that as a global society, we support these insect pollinators. Now our project is focused on a variety of support such as technical expertise in building these meadows, increasing the native seed supply in Ontario, and providing case studies of the costs and benefits of restoring meadow habitat. We work with interested managers to develop their respective projects. And we've also only recently formed the Canadian branch of rights of way within the US rights of way habitat working group to enhance our network so that we have more access to resources, case studies and best practices. Dan Seguin 17:48 I'm really looking forward to your thoughts on this next question, Tracey. Road right aways are a major push for Canadian Wildlife Federation's pollinator initiative. Why build them there? Tracey Etwell 18:02 Yeah, so like transmission lines, road rights of way are another area of great potential for habitat. If you think about the over 1 million kilometers of roads across Canada, that's a lot of space for pollinator habitat. There's also a lot of interest in maintaining and reducing the mowing and the herbicide use that goes into maintaining roads. And by using native plants that can allow for that reduction in those two aspects. And it may even save municipalities municipal maintenance costs by reducing these efforts. And also, it's a great opportunity to share the initiative with the public that are driving by and can see these beautiful displays. Dan Seguin 18:40 Now for my last question for both of you. How can landowners improve pollinator habitats on their properties? And what could citizens do to support this work? Or our pollinator friends in general? Meaghan, let's start with you and the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority. Meaghan McDonald 19:00 Sure! So we always promote the use of native plants on properties for a number of reasons. They obviously have benefits to pollinators. But they also are often like low more low maintenance and typical ornamental plants. So we would encourage folks that that are gardening or are looking for something to plant on their property, then maybe consider some of our native plant species just because they do have that added benefit to the pollinators. We will also of course, promote the use of Cree native plants along natural areas like shorelines in addition to sort of the, the the wildflowers and the meadow species that we're using in this project, there's lots of native trees and shrubs as well that they can consider that are beneficial to pollinators. I was just gonna say and then supporting your local native nurseries. There's a there's a few in the Ottawa Valley that people can consider. And sometimes it just takes a little bit more searching and then digging to find those native native plants for your garden, but they're out there. And if we all support our local native nurseries, then they'll be able to continue supplying those plants for us. Dan Seguin 20:24 And now, Tracey, what about from the Canadian Wildlife Federation perspective? Tracey Etwell 20:28 Right, so we also support backyard gardens planted with native plants. It's a great start. We offer many webinars and guides online to help people get into this mode of planting. Some other things that people can do, that they might not have considered is leaving leaves on your lawn and garden in the fall. Many of these pollinators actually, overwinter and they'll use that that habitat to protect themselves from the winter conditions. Lastly, if you can resist mowing those dandelions until more spring flowers bloom. And that's one of the first floral resources that are available for pollinators. And the spring is actually one of the hardest seasons for them to get going because there's very little for them to feed on and they're very hungry, obviously. So something else you can also do is overseed. With clover in your garden, then clover is a great resource for pollinators. In terms of bigger things, you can contact your local councils and ask them to become a bee city, which is a specific designation, which means they support pollinators and you have projects that support that. And also contact your municipality and ask them if they can support meadow habitat restoration projects in their area. Dan Seguin 21:40 Okay, Tracey, and Meaghan, are you ready to close this off with some rapid fire questions? We'll start with Tracy and then we'll follow up with Meaghan. Tracey Etwell 21:50 Sure Meaghan McDonald 21:52 Sounds good. Dan Seguin 21:53 What is your favorite pollinator? Tracey Etwell 21:57 My favorite pollinator is the Gypsy Cuckoo Bumblebee, which is an endangered Bumblebee with a great name. Meaghan McDonald 22:05 I was just gonna say our native bees, there's many species and I think they're all important. So I don't have quite a specific answer, but native bees. Dan Seguin 22:15 Now, what is your favorite flower? Tracey Etwell 22:18 My favorite is the Brown Eyed Susan, which is a native plant, of course, a powerhouse for pollinators and very easy to grow. Meaghan McDonald 22:27 I like Wild Bergamot. It's again, easy to grow. And it's got a really cool kind of purple flower on it. Dan Seguin 22:35 Moving on, what is one thing you can't live without? Tracey Etwell 22:41 Chocolate? Always chocolate? Meaghan McDonald 22:45 And I would say coffee. Dan Seguin 22:49 What habit or hobby have you picked up during shelter in place? Tracey Etwell 22:55 For me, it's been sourdough baking, making my own. Meaghan McDonald 23:01 I've been starting a lot of craft projects and not finishing them. We also got a canoe last year and new cross country skis this winter. Dan Seguin 23:09 Okay, if you could have one superpower, what would it be? Tracey Etwell 23:14 For me it would be to fly to travel and see the world. Meaghan McDonald 23:18 Also to fly Dan Seguin 23:22 This is an interesting one. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you be telling her? Tracey Etwell 23:30 I would tell her to enjoy life more and not to be so serious. Meaghan McDonald 23:36 I would say save and also travel and spend time with friends and family as much as you can while you can. Dan Seguin 23:42 Okay, what excites you most about these pollinator projects? Tracey Etwell 23:49 I get excited to see the new life emerge. So when new plants start to blow when the insects start to come in and use that habitat that just fills me with joy. Meaghan McDonald 24:00 And I'm excited about kind of learning something new because these projects are new for us and being able to bring some of that knowledge to our landowners and then also to some of our conservation areas as well. Dan Seguin 24:11 And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector? Tracey Etwell 24:18 For me, I would say it's the new application of new technologies that are coming online that help us support the conservation projects and answering specific questions that we need help with. Meaghan McDonald 24:29 And I really like working with landowners and sort of seeing them connect the dots on how what they do on their property really impacts nature and it's always fun to see. Dan Seguin 24:40 Well, Tracey, Meaghan, we've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. I truly hope you had a lot of fun. And thank you so much for joining me today. Cheers. Tracey Etwell 24:54 It's been great. Thank you, Dan. Meaghan McDonald 24:56 Yeah, thank you. Dan Seguin 24:58 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast, and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergy podcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

The summer heat is in full swing, so let's revisit why systems like district energy could be a sustainable way to heat and cool communities—ultimately working towards a zero carbon footprint. Jeff Westeinde, President of Zibi Canada and Founding Partner of Windmill Development Group joined thinkenergy to talk about how Zibi, which aims to be Canada's most sustainable development project, embraces district energy and One Planet Living. Relive this episode as part of thinkenergy's Summer Recharge! Related links LinkedIn, Jeff Westeinde: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-westeinde-a46b4843/ LinkedIn, Windmill Development Group: https://www.linkedin.com/company/windmill-development-group/?originalSubdomain=ca Zibi: https://zibi.ca/ --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript Dan Seguin 00:06 This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome to the summer rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy days of summer, we're bringing back some blasts from our podcast past. We'll be reintroducing some of our most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest. There's been a lot of talk about the future electrification of energy on the path to net zero. The episodes we've selected are very future focused with themes around Green Innovation, renewable energy, and our impact on the environment. So I hope you enjoy the summer rewind edition of today's episode. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back on August 15. To kick off another exciting season. Cheers. I'm Dan Seguin from Hydro Ottawa, and I'll be hosting the thinkenergy podcast. So here's today's big question. Are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Join me every two weeks and get a unique perspective from industry leaders as we deep dive and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies and latest innovations that drive the energy sector. So stay tuned as we explore some traditional and some quirky facets of this industry. This is the thinkenergy podcast. Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. What happens when you use a network of hot and cold water pipes, bury them underground and then use them to efficiently heat and cool buildings - even whole communities, you get something called 'district energy'. And it's not a new concept. A quick search will reveal that its origins can be traced back to the second century BC to the invention of the hypocaust heating systems that powered the hot water bath of the ancient Roman Empire. Famously a hot water distribution system in Chaudes-Aigues, in France, is regarded as the first real district heating system. It used geothermal energy to provide heat for about 30 houses in the 14th century, and the US Naval Academy in Annapolis began steam district heating in 1853. If you're like me, maybe you're wondering why modern civilization did not continue to use this efficient and environmentally sustainable technology more. There are some European countries such as Denmark, where district energy is mandated, but for the most part, it is largely gone the way of ancient Rome and public bathing. The latter is not such a bad thing in my mind, with more and more socially conscious citizens around the globe, district energy is once again seeing a surge in popularity and becoming a preferred method, thanks to its lower and energy efficient operating costs, reduced supply disruptions, and environmentally sound methods of heating and cooling buildings, municipalities and property owners are intrigued by this ancient alternative energy technology. So, here's today's big question: Is the world ready to embrace district energy as a viable means to power our communities? Is the nation's capital ready to have the first one planet zero carbon community district energy system in the country? Well, my guest today is the founding partner of the Thea partnership. One of Canada's most sustainable real estate development companies, as well as the president of Zibi Canada, which aims to be Canada's most sustainable development project. He's also an active investor and entrepreneur in both environmental, clean tech and real estate sector with active investments in solar energy, site remediation, and the beneficial reuse of waste. Dear listeners, please welcome Jeff Westeinde. Jeff, can we start by you telling us a bit about your background, the Zibi project and what drives your passion to build sustainable communities? Jeff Westeinde 05:24 Well, so I guess my background, I always say I'm an entrepreneur. I'm an engineer by training, but entrepreneur by practice. So I've, I've had one, what I call real job in my career, I worked for a company for a little over a year, it quickly became apparent that I was unemployable. So I had to start my own business. And I've always been in the environmental sector. So I started I started my career as an environmental contractor cleaning up industrial messes and some of the wastes of the past. And as part of that, I would watch our clients the way they were cleaning up properties, and then what they would do to redevelop them. And I was pursuing trying to, you know, clean up the environment, make the planet a better place. And yet, so the practices we were using, were actually making it worse. We're trucking contaminated soils. You know, the time I lived in BC, we're picking up soil, putting it in a dump truck and hauling it across the Rocky Mountains into a landfill in Alberta. And nobody can tell me that's good for the environment. So very good. quickly decided that we shouldn't say very quickly but decided while I continue to move up the food chain, and start to buy contaminated properties and start to develop places and communities. And because we were purchasing contaminated properties, the commitment that we had was, let's do better than we've done before. So let's push the envelope about how can we live in a sustainable way? How can we ensure that what we're building today doesn't cause the problems that we're cleaning up on the very site for developing so that's maybe a bit of a background as to you know, why how I got into this and in my passion around, you know, leaving, like, I don't know if you're ever in the wilderness, but there's a rule, leave the campsite better than you found it. And I think that rule, that should be a planet wide rule, and it's historically as you know, as not being so. Dan Seguin 07:12 Okay, Jeff, you're on the record saying that the way we build communities does not support health, happiness or the environment. What do you mean by that? And how does Zibi differentiate? Jeff Westeinde 07:28 So, I might even be so bold as to say that, I would argue that most of our planning, especially in North America, is actually shortening the lifespan of our own citizens. And that's because we're so car reliant. We're so socially isolated in the way that we build. So think about a typical suburb. In a typical suburb, if you want to get up and, you know, go get a coffee, buy some milk, bring your kids to school, the very first thing you do is go hop in your car and drive. And that that leads to, you know, the stats that can predict the rate of diabetes, the rate of obesity, the rate of all sorts of other chronic diseases by the postal code you live in, was shocking. So, this car centric suburban lifestyle is not good for you. So that's the health side of it. The happiness side of it, I'll just point to one stat. And that's that you can use, there are statistics that say you can determine the level of happiness of somebody by how many of their neighbors they know by first name. Well, when you live in the suburbs, you know, you might know 2, 3, 4 neighbors, or those people whose kids are your age, or those guys you play hockey with, but you don't have the unexpected collisions as you're walking to the coffee shop or as you're bringing your kids to school. So again, that urban sprawl arguably leads to a lot of source of social isolation. And if something happens to an older person, you fall, you break a leg, even as a young person and you're inside your house. Similarly, you're not looking out your window and seeing people and waving at them and those types of things. So how we build our communities, I think is really important for health, happiness and obviously for environmental sustainability. And what we're doing at Zibi is making sure that you will not be car centric, that you do have these collisions with your neighbors. As you're walking around the neighborhood. We actually have social programming that, you know, we have snowshoe nights and that when Cirque du Soleil comes, we have a night that is just for the residents of Zibi that come, you know those kinds of things to make sure you feel like a part of that community. Dan Seguin 09:49 How did you discover the one planet system? What can you tell us about it and your goal to build the first one in Canada? Jeff Westeinde 10:00 Well, so we'll talk about how we discovered it first, and that's good. Myself and my business partners were behind the very first LEED Platinum buildings in Canada. So we built the first LEED Platinum building in BC, Alberta, Ontario, and in the country as a whole and the LEED Platinum building we built in Alberta - I was visiting one day A couple years after we'd built it, and LEED Platinum is literally the Platinum standard, the most sustainable in the lead system. And I watched one of the residents of his LEED Platinum condominium building drive a Hummer SUV into the parking garage, and said, you know, it's great that our building is sustainable, but we really have an impact and how the users are using the building and how they're, how they're living their lives. So we started scouring the planet, literally to say, Well, is there a system that would really impact not only how we build our buildings and how they operate at a point in time, but how do we engage the people, the users that are using those places? So one planet, we get rated on things like health and happiness and social engagement, along with all the other architectural and engineering features of a community. And the way one planet works: very simple. The name says it all we have to live as if we only have one planet. Most people when I say that look at me and sort of go, but we only do have one planet. And we need to remind them that if you live like a typical Canadian, you're using four planets of resources to sustain your unsustainable lifestyle, and Americans using five planets, Europeans using three planets, and all we're doing is stealing from future generations, and the developing world to sustain our unsustainable lifestyles. So one planet really is all about both environmental sustainability, like technical sustainability and social sustainability, with one planet worth of resources, and it's a very holistic program. Very audacious goals, we're going to talk about zero carbon. So as you know, Zibi is in the nation's capital in Ottawa and Gatineau. You know, we are we are today we're going to be at plus 34 degrees. Six months from now we'll be at minus 34 degrees Celsius and to be zero carbon in this environment. It's the Holy Grail. So achieving one planet is not an easy thing to do very audacious. But that's where we said, No, that's the bar we need to hit, we need to again, leave our campsite better than we came to it. Dan Seguin 12:35 I was fascinated that this method, 'district energy' dates back, like I think is 3000 or 4000 years to the time of the Roman Empire. What are some of the key benefits of the energy system you're implementing in your community? And why has it taken this long for folks to embrace it with it's being around for so long? Jeff Westeinde 13:01 Well, like most technological breakthroughs, it is not the technology itself or even the concept itself that gets in the way, its people. So regulators, you know, if you look at how our grid works, say in Ontario, you cannot run a district electrical system. I can't, I couldn't produce energy and give it to my neighbor. Because we have a regulatory body that says you can't do it. And there are good reasons for that it was around safety and security and all those types of things. But we've ended up with all of these barriers, that that would prohibit the transportation and sale of energy. And, you know, I talked about electricity. But what's very interesting at Zibi - our district energy system is just hot and cold water. And there are no regulations currently in Ontario and Quebec, around moving hot and cold water. So that allowed us to start a district energy system. Answer so yeah. Again, the reason I would say you don't see more of them is the regulatory hurdles to implement the district energy system are enormous. However, the benefits are huge. And I'll use a very, you know, high level example that if you were to have a, you know, a Shopify data center, a good Canadian company, unlike Amazon, as a for instance. That is in constant cooling. So it's rejecting heating all the time. Right? And beside it, you have the Nordic spa, another great company that always needs heating, but needs to therefore be rejecting cooling. When you put those two side by side, and they're swapping energy back and forth. So your load is so much less. That's the concept of District energy is that by sharing and you know, a commercial building has different loads than a residential building has different loads than a retail building. By sharing those loads, they have different peaks, either for peak shades, you'd be you have less capital expenditure and you're more efficient. Why is it taking so long? It drives me crazy, but I really do think it's regulation is the key item why. Dan Seguin 15:13 Aside from regulation, what have been the challenges you encountered bringing this technology to market in Canada? The sight of your one planet community alone, straddling Ontario and Quebec, is really unique. Tell us about the challenges and how your passion has gotten you through. Jeff Westeinde 15:34 Yeah, I'm not sure how long this podcast is, but I could talk for a week about the challenges. Yeah, as you talked about, we do span the provincial border between Ontario and Quebec. You know, we jokingly say, both sides have a different word for everything. Because one speaks French one speaks English. Even the rule of law is different to one side of the other the legal system. So, you know, we need to repeat everything twice when we do this, but what I'll tell you is, I would say that the way that we've overcome what are just an enormous amount of challenges, I won't even get into what they all are, but it was it was crazy. Boy, when we overcome it was we shared our vision. And actually, I would say was our community's vision of saying, this is where our region started. Arguably, this is where, you know, the roots of our country started was on this site. And when we when we purchased the property was a fenced off locked off contaminated former industrial site that nobody had seen unless you worked at domtar. For probably 100 years, people didn't realize there's a waterfall in the middle of the city. What the community talked about in the vision that we had was no, we need to do something truly world class like something that people would come to our region and say Quebecers Ontarians, Canadians, look at the communities and the places that they create. And with that vision of being world class, we were fortunate that that politicians in the region, federal, municipal and provincial, all endorsed out the community endorse it. So when we started to bump up against bureaucracy and regulations, we were able to remind everybody that our commitment or contract to all of our stakeholders was, we're going to do some world class. Now world class, meaning different, and bureaucracies and regulations exist to enforce the same. So we were able to say, listen, you've got to empower, talk to the politicians, you've got to empower the bureaucrats who are paid to make sure that everybody does everything the same, to say, No, we've got to look at this one differently. We're not looking to do anything unsafe or unreasonable. But there's a better way and we've got to find it. And it was really that vision of world class and the endorsement that we got from all of the public stakeholders who said, yeah, we want to be world class. We don't want to just build another suburb of the City of Ottawa or Gatineau. Dan Seguin 18:08 Now through a marketing lens, how did you position this alternative energy system that provides heating and cooling to your communities' new housing projects? What was the value proposition for prospective buyers and investors. Jeff Westeinde 18:25 I think the key one, one of the lessons we've learned about sustainability and building sustainable buildings and building sustainable communities, is, most consumers don't, you know, while it's a nice to have being sustainable, it's not something that they're making a purchasing decision around. That's changing. I think more and more people are starting to look at that, but historically hasn't been important. So the key to sustainability is, we need to, we're going to allow you to be much more environmentally sustainable, socially sustainable, without any impact to your lifestyle. So when it comes to district heating and cooling, we said, listen, we're going to deliver you zero carbon district heating and cooling at the same market cost as a carbon based system, and you won't know. If you know you're going to turn your heat on, it's going to get hot, you're going to turn up your cooling on it's going to get cool, and you're not going to pay any more of the market. So that was that batten marketing. I mean, that's a no brainer to everybody that Okay, hold on, I get the exact same as I would get in a carbon based system but I'm zero carbon or more sustainable. That's a pretty easy sell at that point. Dan Seguin 19:33 Okay, now I'd like to explore design aspects. District energy equipment inside a building occupies about one fifth of the area of conventional systems that boilers and chillers take up. I'm assuming this provides more flexibility in designing your buildings and community. By eliminating traditional HVAC systems, what building design options did this enable you to expand on? Jeff Westeinde 20:06 There's some easy ones like if you think about rooftop patios, as a for instance, you know, if you have a rooftop patio beside a big chiller that's making a bunch of noise is not a great rooftop. So by being able to eliminate that equipment. You know, our rooftop patios are much nicer. But really as a place maker, as a developer, the key aspect for us was if you know if you take all of that mechanical and electrical distribution space, and you end up with instead real estate that you can use, it's another added benefit to saying that that district energy makes financial sense or can make financial sense. It wasn't easy to unlock that but can make financial sense. So, so yeah, it obviously the less constraints you have on a building, the more flexibility you have and district is one tool for that for sure. Dan Seguin 21:06 Now, wondering if you could zero in on the energy distribution system that harnesses excess heat from the Kruger paper mill on the Ottawa River and the temporary thermal plant that was or is built to serve residents businesses in your community. Jeff Westeinde 21:24 Sure, yeah. So are, you know, like talking about the benefits, or sorry, the rationale behind district that if you have different energy cycles between neighboring buildings, you can share that energy. Our district energy system is actually based on that very same principle that Kruger operates a tissue mill, directly across from Parliament Hill. They, it's a very efficient, very successful mill. But as part of that process, they bring in millions of litres of water a day, heated up to over 40 degrees Celsius. Use it several times in their papermaking process, but then discharge it into the Ottawa River at about 30 degrees Celsius, anywhere from 25 to 30. So what we're doing is saying listen, you're discharging the millions of liters of hot water into the Ottawa River. Why don't we strip that heat so then what we're doing is we're taking it from 25 to 30 degrees down to seven to 10 degrees and discharging out into the Ottawa. River in our heating system or in the heating season. So that's the concept behind it's very rudimentary engineering, it's strictly heat transfer between water. So, so pretty straightforward from that point of view. What the temporary plane that you speak about is our district energy system. That backbone heating system at Kruger is not yet built that's getting built this season. However, we have users in our buildings right now. So, we have temporary plants that are providing that but the infrastructure for the district the pipes in the streets and hot and cold water system is there. So those temporary plants are going to operate for about another year, after which will be on our permanent system. Dan Seguin 23:06 In addition to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and improving energy resilience. Is it fair to say that district energy deliver economies of scale in areas with high population? What are some of the short and long term benefits for the owner and end user alike? And how do these factor into the government carbon reduction targets? Jeff Westeinde 23:33 Well, yeah, so the short term is if you can be more efficient, so if you have dense populations with different energy cycles, so different peaks and whatnot, as we talked about earlier, you need to spend less capital because you're peaking is at a lower level. And you're sharing energy between so that your overall initial energy utilization from the grid or from the gas system is lower because you're sharing more so overall that drives efficiency. And at the end of the day efficiency then drives lower greenhouse gas emissions and ideally, lower and more stable costs because your energy inputs are a lower percentage of the overall district. So say in our case, you if we're harnessing heat from Kruger, there are no escalation in the cost of that heat. It is waste industrial heat that otherwise wouldn't go anywhere. Whereas if we're connected to the Ontario grid, as you know, you know, costs have escalated very significantly. So that energy input if that is our key input, our energy costs are going to be higher. So we're fortunate that again, the combination of we sit in Ontario and in Quebec, so we have two different electrical and two different gas grids. We have waste heat and our cooling is going to come largely from the Ottawa River. So we have low cost inputs with waste heat and Ottawa River cooling. And we have four different grids we can tap into for alternative and for other energy if need be. So that then allows us to control our costs. So again, just an example of how you can drive efficiency and provide more price stability, while at the same time reducing emissions. Dan Seguin 25:22 Okay. Do alternative energy sources like district energy reduce exposure to fluctuating energy prices? How are the rates/cost determined for residents? Are they comparable to current rates? And are they stable? Jeff Westeinde 25:41 Yeah, so, yes, not all district energy systems are the same. Obviously, it depends on what those inputs are. But in the case of the Zibi community utility, our district energy system, but then our key inputs are that waste industrial heat and cooling base from the Ottawa River, both of which obviously have are stable. There's there is no Yeah, well, I shouldn't say we have some commercial transactions that go on without but not like the grid that allows us to decrease our reliance on the grid for other inputs. So to answer the question on rates, yes, our rates are comparable to market. And we've actually indexed them to the price of Quebec hydroelectricity. And for anyone that understands electrical grids, I would suggest that in North America, Quebec is likely the most stable grid in all of North America. I would say that it is a national utility for the province of Quebec. And I would say, you know, all Canadians are very proud of our healthcare and if they ever tried to take it away, there'd be riots in the streets. I would suggest that if anybody tried to raise electrical rates in Quebec, similar to what's happened Ontario, there would be even bigger riots in the streets. So, you know, we are expecting that will allow us to provide really stable pricing over the long term to our, to our customers. Dan Seguin 27:09 Now, how important was it to find a strategic partner like hydro Ottawa, that had more than 100 years of experience and a strong track record to create safe and reliable utility infrastructure? Jeff Westeinde 27:24 The partnership with Hydro Ottawa was critical. And again, consumer acceptance of that of the district energy system. You know, if you think about reliability if you're a consumer at Zibi, and you said, Okay, well what happens if my heating or cooling goes off? Who do I call if I see, well, you know, I am Jeff and here's my cell phone, you know, call me up at the cottage and I'll see if I can help you. That's not exactly reassuring. When you say 'Well, you call Hydro Ottawa" and they will is not who I would normally, you know, they, they're, they're, you know, the relative reliability stats of Hydro Ottawa better than me, but it's 99.999 something percent uptime, you know, 24 hour response, etc., etc. So, being able to bring that credibility of a utility operator to our district was absolutely critical for overall consumer acceptance and I would even say regulatory acceptance. You know, when we started talking about listen we're going to be moving hot and cold water in the you know energy in the form of hot and cold water around the around our community all municipal officials provincially "Okay, let you know if they did you have experience with this?" when we say well, Hydro Ottawa is our partner, it is an automatic acceptance of all know, okay, you guys are credible we understand let's carry on. So having Hydro Ottawa as a partner has been truly exceptional for us to be able to pioneer this. Dan Seguin 28:50 Jeff, in addition to district energy, what else is he planning to feature in terms of other advanced technology and innovation to achieve zero carbon living for the residents and tenants on site? Jeff Westeinde 29:08 Yeah, again, I know your podcast is not that long so I could talk forever about this, but I'll give you some key examples. So you know, again, trying to decrease reliance on carbon based transportation systems. So you know, the personal vehicle. You know, having car sharing, having excellent access to transit, when you're looking at other things that have a carbon footprint, how we build our buildings, the components that go into our buildings, the materials that go into our buildings, some are very carbon intensive. So again, we're targeting those that aren't carbon intensive. Even things like if you look at logistics, you know, when you buy a head of lettuce at the at the grocery store, the carbon it took to get that lettuce to the grocery store is embedded in that very product. So having urban agriculture, you'll see urban gardens, we've got a couple on site now. So all sorts of areas where anywhere where we can target things that are that use carbon to get delivered to or to, as part of the system that we're in. We're looking at incrementally changing all of those things. And those increments when they add up, turn into some big numbers. So that's really our focus. Dan Seguin 30:27 Jeff, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions? Are you ready to go? What is your favorite word? Jeff Westeinde 30:36 Serendipity. Yeah, I love serendipity. Because good things happen when you're not paying attention. Dan Seguin 30:42 What is one thing you can't live without? Jeff Westeinde 30:46 That was an easy one, my wife, I could be dead without that! Dan Seguin 30:52 What is something that challenges you? Jeff Westeinde 30:54 The word "No." I'm not good at taking the word 'No', it's how Zibi exists. Dan Seguin 31:00 If you could have one superpower, what would it be? Jeff Westeinde 31:03 I'd love to be a shapeshifter, be able to get inside different systems, different beings and understand how and why they work. I have endless curiosity. So I think being a shapeshifter would be amazing. Dan Seguin 31:15 If you had to turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell them? Jeff Westeinde 31:21 First, I would say smarten up and stop doing dumb things. But no, I think the one thing I would say is listen, relax. You know, something that has come to ring true with me, the Roman philosopher Seneca said, you know, "luck happens when opportunity meets preparedness". And I've been very fortunate to be lucky. But there's only one thing I can control in there. I can't control luck, I can't control opportunity. All I can do is control preparedness. So get prepared and just relax, pay attention, good things will happen. Dan Seguin 31:52 And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector? Jeff Westeinde 31:57 I love the fact that public health - so right now, you know, as you know, we're in the middle of a covid pandemic - public health is leading that across our country. But here in Ottawa, it's Vera Etches, I love the fact that our public health officials are starting to be included in our urban planning policies. So in Ottawa, Vera Etches participated in that. So remember I said earlier, you know, the way we plan is shortening the lifespan of our citizens. Public health starting to get involved in that. I'm really hoping that there will be an influence where they'll say, "if we planned communities this way, then here are the health benefits of it. If we do it that way, here's the health benefits." That's not currently happening. So I find that really exciting. So, you know, we've been talking mostly about the Zibi project, which is one of the many things I do you know, if you go to Zibi.ca, then you can find more about Zibi and if you look to hello@zibi.ca anybody that wants to connect they're very good at getting people to me. I'm not much of a social media person, I do have a LinkedIn profile. I don't use it very often. But you can find me on LinkedIn and I'm good at responding to messages there as well. Dan Seguin 32:41 Well, Jeff, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast, last question for you. How can our listeners learn more about you and Zibi? How can they better connect? Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Jeff Westeinde 33:35 Well, this was fun, Dan, and thank you for your interest in Zibi and One Planet. That's fantastic. Dan Seguin 33:42 Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The thinkenergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website HydroOttawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.

In order to achieve Canada's goal of being net zero by 2050, the future of energy will need to look a lot different than it does today. Vince Brescia, President and CEO of the Ontario Energy Association shared how controlling our emissions is a large part of the process, taking into account affordability and reliability of the energy supply, and six recommendations outlined by the Ontario Energy Association in a recent report. Relive this episode as part of thinkenergy's Summer Recharge! Related links Vince Brescia, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vincebrescia/ Ontario Energy Association, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ontario-energy-association https://energyontario.ca/ --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript Dan Seguin 00:06 This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome to the summer rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy days of summer, we're bringing back some blasts from our podcast past. We'll be reintroducing some of our most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest. There's been a lot of talk about the future electrification of energy on the path to net zero. The episodes we've selected are very future focused with themes around Green Innovation, renewable energy, and our impact on the environment. So I hope you enjoy the summer rewind edition of today's episode. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back on August 15. To kick off another exciting season. Cheers. Dan Seguin 00:02 Hey, everyone, I'm Dan Seguin. Rebecca Schwartz 00:04 And I'm Rebecca Schwartz, both from Hydro Ottawa. Dan Seguin 00:07 And we'll be hosting the ThinkEnergy podcast. So are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Every two weeks, Rebecca and I will be taking you on a tour and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies, and latest innovations within the energy sector Rebecca Schwartz 00:26 We'll be engaging in great conversations with game changers, thought leaders and industry leaders who welcome the opportunity to share their expertise and views with you, our listeners. Dan Seguin 00:37 So stay tuned as we explore some traditional and some quirky facets of this industry. Rebecca Schwartz 00:43 This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. Dan Seguin 00:50 Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast and I'm Dan Seguin. Rebecca Schwartz 00:55 And I'm Rebecca Schwartz. In November 2020, the Government of Canada introduced a bill setting the stage to achieve net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. Dan, how old will you be in 2050? Dan Seguin 01:08 I don't know, Rebecca, you have to ask me then, when I wake up from my cryogenically frozen state along with Walt Disney, that's the plan. Rebecca Schwartz 01:17 Okay, good to know Dan Seguin 01:19 When you try and wrap your head around what it will take to get Canada to net zero by 2050, do you wonder what kind of energy transformation that will entail? Rebecca Schwartz 01:30 I'm still thinking about what you said about being cryogenically frozen. But yes, I think it's going to be a massive undertaking and necessary one. Ontario currently produces 163 megatons of greenhouse gas emissions. And 76% of that is from emissions stemming from energy use. Dan Seguin 01:51 Right. But when we talk about energy, we're not talking about electricity. We're talking about refined petroleum, primarily used for transportation and natural gas to heat our homes and buildings. Rebecca Schwartz 02:05 That's right. Those two sectors, transportation and buildings make up 76% of the provinces greenhouse gas emissions, however, the electricity sector makes up only 16%. So here's today's big question. What are the keys to net zero success? Dan Seguin 02:23 It's interesting, because, as you know, despite what the electricity sector in Ontario has achieved in terms of renewable energy, and curbing its greenhouse gas emissions, the conversation almost always still revolves around the electricity sector when it comes to climate change. Which brings us to today's show. Rebecca Schwartz 02:45 Recently, the Ontario Energy Association released a white paper that reviewed various elements of the provinces energy system and the options available to achieve zero emissions by 2050. Dan Seguin 02:57 Our guest today is Vince Brescia, President and CEO of the Ontario Energy Association. Rebecca Schwartz 03:07 Vince, welcome to the show. Perhaps you can start us off by telling us a little bit about yourself and what the Ontario Energy Association does. Vince Brescia 03:15 Thanks, Rebecca, and thanks for having me on the show. I'm the president and CEO of the Ontario Energy Association. I've been active in public policy work and research since the late 1980s, I guess, inside the government and in various capacities outside of the government, then I've been here at the OEA for the last five years and really enjoying it. Here's of who the OEA is we represent the the breadth of Ontario's energy industry. We have power producers of all the different fuel types, you know, whether that's nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, etc. We have demand response and storage. We have the large electricity distributors representing 75% of Ontario's customer base. We also have the natural gas distributors representing over 99% of Ontario's customers in terms of what we do the OEA conducts Public Policy Research and advocates on behalf of its members. And we also provide forums for education on Energy and Environment issues. So that's a quick snapshot of me and the OEA Dan Seguin 04:27 Now Vince with respect to the government of Canada's goal to reach net zero emissions by 2050. What is the role of the Ontario Energy Association in this initiative? Vince Brescia 04:40 Thanks. Yeah, reaching net zero by 2050 will be a massive undertaking, perhaps the largest infrastructure projects in our country's history. So our role at the OEA is going to be to leverage the expertise of our members and advise governments at all levels about how we can make this transition happen. while still maintaining the affordability and reliability of our energy supply, it's going to be a big challenge. And we're all going to need to work together to achieve this goal. Rebecca Schwartz 05:08 So what kinds of major transformation will it take to achieve the government's goals? Vince Brescia 05:14 I'll break it down in a couple of different ways. In Ontario, 76% of our emissions come from the energy we use. So reaching our goals will require a major transformation of our energy system. 23% of those emissions come from industrial processes and product use 10% of agriculture, percent based so that gives you the full spectrum of the emissions in Ontario. But because we're an Energy Association, we've focused on the energy component and the transformation required in the energy system. Or there are some overlaps. For example, we're hopeful some of those waste emissions can be turned into energy just as an example. But then turning to energy. Currently in Ontario 80% of the energy we use comes from fossil fuel sources. 48% is from petroleum primarily for transportation uses. Another 28% is from natural gas primarily to heat our homes and buildings. 16% comes from electricity, which is now a clean energy source. So altogether, achieving our goal is going to require us to transform 80% of our energy system. That's a big project. And the three big sources of emissions in Ontario are transportation, buildings and industry. Altogether, those account for almost 80% of our emissions. So we're going to have to swap up the fuels that we use in transportation, we're going to need to decarbonize our building heating systems. And many of our industries and businesses are going to have to adapt to new fuel sources. This gives you a sense of the scale of the challenge. But also with comes that comes with that is a large opportunity of the to go to go hand in hand. Dan Seguin 06:56 2015 is 30 years away. But it's fair to say that Ontario's emissions have changed a lot in the past 30 years. Vince, can you give us a snapshot of how our energy use has changed since 1990. What sectors and provinces have improved the most? Vince Brescia 07:16 In 2019. Just to give you a sense of where we're at Canada emitted 730 mega tons of ghgs of that Ontario represented 163 mega tons or 22% of the national total. Over time since 1990, Ontario's emissions have declined from 180 megatons to 163, which is a reduction of about 17 megatons or 9%. We still have another 19 megatons to go to meet our 2030 target of 30% below 2005 levels. That's not factoring in the recent national commitment by our Prime Minister to reduce emissions by 40 to 45%. By 2030. In terms of you asked about how you know how the provinces have, have compared and fared nationally, Ontario has made the largest largest progress nationally. That came primarily from the elimination of coal fired generation in the province. That one policy change resulted in a 31 mega ton reduction reduction in emissions from its peak in 2005. However, a lot of those emissions reductions in Ontario have been offset by increases in emissions from our transportation sector since 1990. Nationally, to give you a sense of how other provinces have done, you know, to the east of Ontario, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Quebec together, have reduced emissions by 19 megatons in total since 2005. However, west of Ontario, the emissions profile has been rising. So altogether, nationally, our emissions have been flat since 2005. And if you look back to 1991, they're up from the 600 megatons to the 730 we're at now. Rebecca Schwartz 08:57 Vince, the Ontario Energy Association outlines six recommendations in the report, can you walk us through what those are at a high level and why you believe they're the keys to netzero success, Vince Brescia 09:09 I'll do a quick walk through. Our first recommendation is that we need to move as quickly as we can on transportation fuel switching. And that's because we have almost all of the technologies we need to affordably transform the sector and because transportation is our largest source of emissions. So that's what we need to tackle first, and we can do it affordably. Second is we need to start reducing emissions in our natural gas system is our second largest source of emissions. And if we get time later, we can talk a bit about some of the things we can do in that area. The third thing we're going to need to do is to plan to expand our electricity system, all this fuel switching. I've been talking about like for example in transportation, and we're going to need it in industry as well. We're going to need a lot more electricity and we're going to need every type of resource. We're going to need nuclear, hydro, wind, solar storage demand response transmission, you name it, we're going to need the whole package to meet the amount of electricity that's needed. Some people talk about a doubling or tripling of our electricity. Some, we're gonna need a lot more electricity as we transform our economy. The fourth thing that we recommended is that we start to accelerate accelerate hydrogen programs and pilots, we're gonna need a lot of hydrogen in our future, because there's certain types of industrial processes and activities, where it's not so easy to swap out the fossil fuels that we use. And hydrogen seems like a highly likely candidate, or hydrogen based fuels. But we have a bit of work to do to develop those and make them affordable for customers. So we need governments to lean in and help with pilot projects, and put their thumb on the scale, so to speak, to accelerate this economy and help build the infrastructure that we need to service the economy. Fifth recommendation we made is that there be comprehensive energy planning, not just electricity policy. In Ontario, we have tended to have a history of focusing just on the electricity system. And you've heard me mentioned earlier, it currently only accounts for 16% of our total energy use. We now now need to think about our whole energy system holistically. And make a detailed plan about what it's going to cost, what the most likely pathways are. The final recommendation is that we're going to need federal, provincial and municipal coordination. All three levels of governments are active in the space, all are having an impact and can have an impact. But we're not going to be successful if they're not coordinating their efforts, or if they're working at cross purposes, or fighting each other's or turning issues into political wedges, you know, against each other. We need to all work together because you know, as I mentioned earlier, this is a massive undertaking. And if we're going to be successful, we all need to work together in coordination. So that's a quick summary of our recommendations. Dan Seguin 12:11 You note that in order for the transition to be successful in Ontario, careful attention needs to be paid to three core pillars that are the underpinning of the energy system. What are those? Vince Brescia 12:24 Yeah, thanks for asking. Now we know from from experience that are three critical pillars that underpin public support for our energy system. The first is sustainability, which encompasses the net zero discussion we are having today. our energy system must be sustainable over the long term, and that includes ensuring that we utilize energy in a way that ensures the environmental sustainability of our communities, and of our planet. Of course, the two other pillars, though, are affordability, and reliability. We have recent experience in Ontario that significant increases in energy costs lead to very negative customer and voter reactions. We must keep our customers informed and supportive of the transition, or they will rebel against the effort. Finally, our modern economy is also very dependent upon reliable energy. customers expect and depend on energy being available when they need it. If we go too long, without energy to heat our homes or power to run our economy, or God forbid, keep our cell phones charged. It causes major disruption for all of us. So our transition must ensure we continue to provide an energy in the reliable fashion that our consumers have grown accustomed to, Rebecca Schwartz 13:36 In your opinion, Vince, what are some of the biggest barriers and challenges to achieve the 2015 zero emission targets? For instance, are there any activities that we can't fully eliminate? Vince Brescia 13:47 Yes, some of the biggest barriers and challenges to achieving our goals will come from what some call the hard to abate sectors. These sectors are characterized by high material volumes, and finding alternative processes that are affordable, it's going to be a challenge for us. These are also some of our largest sources of emissions globally. And the big three are cement, steel and chemicals. Cement is one of the largest sources of global emission each tonne of cement produces about a half a tonne of carbon dioxide. And this has two main components. One is from the chemical reaction of turning limestone, which is calcium carbonate, and to lime, which releases co2. The other is from the energy component that we use to cook the limestone to over 1000 degrees Celsius, which is typically fossil fuels. So you have two elements, you have both an energy element and a chemical element that leads to large emissions from that sector. And that's going to be a challenge to decarbonize that sector. Steel is another one steel is the highest emitting industry in the world. It produces 3.5 Giga tons of co2 globally. Like cement, they're both energy In process admissions, we make primary steel out of iron ore, which is iron oxide, we add coal to the iron ore for its heat energy to essentially boil the you're kind of like we did we do for the cement, and for its chemical properties that allow us to strip off the oxygen atoms. This results in a chemical process where you end up with pure iron and co2 emissions. We produce steel in Ontario. And we also produce a lot of cars, which use a lot of steel and steel and a lot of other processes. So we're Ontario is going to have to tackle this one head on and it's going to be a challenge. The third big challenging areas, chemicals, petrochemicals and plastic production are the other large area of emissions globally and Ontario. There's a more diverse range of products here, but the largest one is ammonia, which we use for fertilizer in agriculture. And the next are ethylene and propylene, which are the most important ingredients and plastics. Again, there's going to be some difficulties and challenges and a lot of technology required to decarbonize those sectors. Rebecca Schwartz 16:07 Let's talk about opportunities and leveraging technology and innovation. What's exciting you or giving you hope for the future? Vince Brescia 16:14 There are some activities, we're going to need a lot of Innovation and Learning before we'll be able to eliminate emissions. According to the International Energy Agency, almost half the emissions cuts necessary for us to achieve net zero will come from technologies that are not in the marketplace yet. Some of the more exciting areas that are important and looked like they have significant potential, I would say are the following three hydrogen and hydrogen based fuels. governments around the world are developing hydrogen strategies. It looks to be very competitive globally, every major western country is working on a hydrogen strategy. And Ontario in Canada have some leading companies in this area like we have Enbridge Cummins hydrogenics, new flyer Ballard loop energy, planetary hydrogen, hydro energy, it's going to be a very exciting area is watching the hydrogen economy develop. That's what I'm excited about. The other one is energy storage, particularly long duration energy storage. We store lots of energy, now we have the technology. The costs are coming down fast. But what's really going to help us transform our economy is the ability to store energy for a long period of times and learn to do that affordably. There's lots of people looking at that and working on it, it's going to be a significant growth area. And I'm very excited about it. The third big one is is carbon capture utilization and storage, we are absolutely going to need carbon capture and storage if we're going to meet our netzero goals. One of the examples is cement, which I talked about earlier, I talked about this process where we boil the limestone and the chemical reaction leads to a bunch of emissions. The only thing I'm really hearing about from experts who know a lot more about this stuff than I do is that we're gonna need carbon capture to capture the carbon dioxide that comes from that cement. And cement. You know, as I mentioned, it's a very large global emissions producers. And that's just one example. There are lots of places where we're going to need carbon capture in our future to meet our goals. So there's a there's there's three areas that I'm excited about where I think we're going to see a lot of growth. Dan Seguin 18:21 How important is energy affordability for Ontarians? Vince Brescia 18:26 It's critically important. History has shown us that Ontarians react negatively to energy cost increase. If the government's Transition Plans a significant negative impact on energy and affordability. Families and businesses will rebel against the plan and the plan will get derailed. Oh, it is critically important. We have to keep it in mind. Dan Seguin 18:45 What lessons can be learned from when Ontario's electricity rates increase to pay for renewable investments? And how can these lessons be applied to Canada's goal for 2050? Vince Brescia 18:59 It's a great question. I'll give you my perspective. I think one important lesson we can learn from that experience is that sudden large spikes in energy costs are very upsetting to people and they draw lots of attention. They draw lots of political attention, lots of media attention. I think you can socialize the idea that costs may have to arise incrementally over time and get people used to the idea. However, most households don't pay much attention to public policy discussions and debates. They just look at their bill. They compare their last bill to this one, or this month's bill compared to this month last year to see how it's doing. So whatever plan we develop, if we can avoid sudden spikes, I think you can invoke you can avoid the negative public reactions, like the one we saw. That's what we can learn from that previous experience. Rebecca Schwartz 19:47 Ontario's electricity system is one of the cleanest in the world. What does removing natural gas from the provinces supply mean for the reliability of the grid? Vince Brescia 19:58 It's a great question. It's one that's getting discussed more. In the current climate, Ontario's Nash natural gas plants were built only recently to replace the reliability service offered by the coal plants we were shutting down. Once we had the capabilities of these natural gas plants in place, we were able to add a large volume of renewables to our system, resulting Ontario having one of the cleanest electricity systems in the world. These gas plants are like a backup to our electricity system. Most of the time the plants are not utilized much while we power the system with you know, nuclear, hydro, wind and solar and other other sources. That's why our system is so clean currently, because the plants are set seldom run at full capacity, so we get fewer emissions from them. However, when we have a large spike in demand on a really cool day, or a really hot day, these plants kick in to help maintain system reliability. They can be deployed on relatively short notice to meet urgent needs. Like the coal plants that they replace, these plants have access to something that is critically important for grid reliability, vast amounts of energy storage, this capability is not easy or affordable to replace. So we're going to need the services of these plants for some time before we're going to be able to replace them, Rebecca Schwartz 21:12 can we replace natural gas to heat our homes and buildings and what will it take to make it happen? Vince, Vince Brescia 21:19 we are going to need to maintain our gases to heat our homes and buildings for some time, we can change what goes into the system to make it cleaner and we can reduce the amount of energy we need from the system. I'll try and put it into perspective for you. The natural gas system currently provides about three times the peak energy of our electricity system. In other words, we would need to quadruple our current electricity system to meet the current peak heat demand if we wanted to transition to electric heat across Ontario. To give you a sense of the scale of that, if we were going to replace all of the gas system with electricity that would require about 24 nuclear generating stations. Or it would take 30 to 50,000 wind turbines paired with long duration energy storage, acquiring about 1.3 million acres for siting, you get a sense that this would be a pretty massive undertaking, and would probably be very expensive for customers. At the same time, we are going to have to expand our electricity system to deal with significant electrification and transportation, which we've talked about, and an industry which we've also talked about. So if we were to add the electrification of the natural gas system on top of that, that would likely not be achievable. So this informs the view that we should be looking at ways to decarbonize the natural gas system. And we're doing that now. Firstly, we've begun to blend renewable natural gas into our system, which takes methane from waste that was otherwise go into the atmosphere. Methane is a very potent greenhouse gas, making this a carbon negative activity. We're also blending green emissions free hydrogen into our gas system. Going forward, we'll be continuously exploring technological advances that allow us to increase the amount of that blend of hydrogen and renewable natural gas into our system. In addition, if we were to pair our current heating system with heat pumps, we can make a significant reduction in the amount of natural gas needed to heat our homes and buildings. On top of all of that, you know, research has shown us that we can affordably achieve significant reductions in the amount of natural gas use through building energy efficiency measures. So when you put all of those things together, you know, our view is that we can deeply decarbonize the natural gas system, and do that relatively affordability which reduces the scale relatively affordably as well and it reduces the scale of the electricity expansion that is going to be required. In Ontario for all these other activities we've talked about. Dan Seguin 23:52 As we know from your report, refined petroleum makes up 48% of Ontario's energy use mostly for transportation. Are electric vehicles the answer to the transportation sectors greenhouse gas emissions problem here in Ontario. Vince Brescia 24:10 Yes, they are a large part of the answer. Transportation as you mentioned, it's Ontario's largest source of emissions. passenger vehicles currently make up 57% of our transportation emissions, electric electrification of these passenger vehicles and a smaller short haul trucks and transit uses this can be done affordably with current technology, very exciting. I expect this transition to really accelerate and the next while for heavier and long haul transportation, we may need other solutions to be part of the mix. Long Haul and heavy transportation is less amenable to electrification because the batteries get too big and heavy and refueling time, you know adds significantly to cost for these uses. You know, we could be looking at learning compressed natural gas and renewable natural gas to to get to net zero most analysts seem to think that hydrogen fuel cells will be an important part of the long term substitution for heavy transportation. exciting part, as I've mentioned, we have a number of leading hydrogen companies in Canada and Ontario that are, that are making these these fuel cells. So it's also an economic opportunity for our province. And also, you know, you think of the materials for batteries and some of the the steel and inputs to the these vehicles that we're talking about, there's another economic opportunity there for Ontario. For some other transportations like ships and planes, we're just going to need alternative fuels. And again, the batteries be too heavy, you need a high energy density of the fuel. And we have, we may be looking at variants on hydrogen fuels like ammonia, that are very, very dense in energy in order to the fuel all those activities. And what we're going to do to try and figure out as a way to develop those supply chains affordably to set out those users. Rebecca Schwartz 26:04 Alright, then, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions? Vince Brescia 26:08 All right, Rebecca Schwartz 26:09 what is your favorite word? Vince Brescia 26:11 Reason Rebecca Schwartz 26:12 What is one thing you can't live without? Vince Brescia 26:14 Air And Starbucks coffee. Rebecca Schwartz 26:17 What is something that challenges you? Vince Brescia 26:19 golf. I keep trying, but it keeps challenging me. Rebecca Schwartz 26:22 If you could have one superpower events, what would it be? Vince Brescia 26:26 Time Travel Rebecca Schwartz 26:27 If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell him? Vince Brescia 26:32 Oh, with my new superpower, I'd say invest all your savings and Berkshire Hathaway and leave it there. Rebecca Schwartz 26:38 And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector? Vince Brescia 26:42 You know what I love the technological innovation that is taking place in our sector. I mean, we've been talking about it today. It's exciting. It's a very exciting time to be part of the sector. I'm learning every day about new technologies and processes. And I love it. Dan Seguin 26:59 Well, Vince, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Vince Brescia 27:08 I did have a lot of fun. Thank you so much for having me. This was great. Dan Seguin 27:13 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

In our last episode, we spoke with Loren McDonald about the shift in social perception when it comes to adopting EVs across Canada. However, it'll take more than just a social shift for this adoption to happen. This week we're revisiting our conversation with Cara Clairman, President and CEO at Plug'nDrive—and a prominent leader in the EV space, who shared her unique perspective on Canada's readiness to adopt EVs, barriers the country is facing, whether Canadian businesses and municipalities have a role to play in EVolution, and more. Related links LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cara-clairman-84967318/ Cost of Ownership Tool: https://ev.plugndrive.ca/ Book a Test Drive: https://www.plugndrive.ca/electric-vehicle-discovery-centre/ Used EV rebate program: https://www.plugndrive.ca/used-electric-vehicles/ ZEVIP (NRCan funding program for infrastructure): https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-efficiency/transportation-alternative-fuels/zero-emission-vehicle-infrastructure-program/21876 Federal EV incentive program: https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/innovative-technologies/zero-emission-vehicles --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube Check out our cool pics on Instagram More to Learn on Facebook Keep up with the Tweets at Twitter Transcript Dan Seguin 00:06 This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome to the summer rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy days of summer, we're bringing back some blasts from our podcast past. We'll be reintroducing some of our most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest. There's been a lot of talk about the future electrification of energy on the path to net zero. The episodes we've selected are very future focused with themes around Green Innovation, renewable energy, and our impact on the environment. So I hope you enjoy the summer rewind edition of today's episode. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back on August 15. To kick off another exciting season. Cheers. Hey, everyone, I'm Dan Seguin. Rebecca Schwartz 01:30 And I'm Rebecca Schwartz, both from Hydro Ottawa. Dan Seguin 01:33 And we'll be hosting the thinkenergy podcast. So are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Every two weeks, Rebecca and I will be taking you on a tour and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies and latest innovations within the energy sector. Rebecca Schwartz 01:52 We'll be engaging in great conversations with game changers, thought leaders and industry leaders who welcomed the opportunity to share their expertise and views with you, our listeners. Dan Seguin 02:03 So stay tuned as we explore some traditional and some coffee facets of this industry. Rebecca Schwartz 02:09 This is the thinkenergy podcast. Dan Seguin 02:12 Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the thinkenergy podcast. And on today's episode, we'll tackle EV-lution of transportation. I'm Dan Seguin. Rebecca Schwartz 02:28 And I'm Rebecca Schwartz. Hey, Dan, you have an electric vehicle,right? Dan Seguin 02:32 I sure do. Rebecca Schwartz 02:33 I'm curious. What's your experience been? Like? Would you recommend an EV for your one and only favorite co host? Dan Seguin 02:39 Mm hmm. I would 100% Recommend one. I love my little EV. I've actually owned two. And now my wife has just ordered her very own. I have no regrets. Rebecca Schwartz 02:54 That's good to know. Now, if I could just get a solid pay raise, I'll be able to afford one hint hint nudge nudge. Dan Seguin 03:01 Hmm. I have some great news about that Rebecca. First. Both the Feds and some provinces have great incentive programs. With these rebates EVs are really much more affordable. In fact, as part of Canada's goal to help fight climate change, there are plans to make owning a zero emission vehicle more accessible than ever before, through addressing affordability and adequate infrastructure. Today's guests will have lots more to say about that. Rebecca Schwartz 03:35 Oh, visions of having my very own EV are getting a little bit more clear. You have my attention go on. Dan Seguin 03:41 In fact, the pressures on; the Government of Canada has mandated 100% of car and passenger truck Sales be zero emission by 2035. All kinds of measures will be required to support this transportation evolution. Everything from incentives for zero emission vehicles, to investments in infrastructure to partnerships with auto manufacturers are being pursued. Rebecca Schwartz 04:06 Wow, that seems so soon. But that's exciting. There are so many more things I'd like to know when asked. So here's today's big questions. Are Canadians ready to embrace this relatively quick transition over to EVs? What are the barriers and do Canadian businesses and municipalities have a role to play in the EV evolution? Dan Seguin 04:26 Joining us today we have Cara Clairman, CEO and President at Plug'n Drive and a prominent leader in the EV space. She's here today to provide us with all of the answers. Cara, welcome to the show. Maybe you could start by telling us a bit about your organization and its mandate. Cara Clairman 04:52 Well, thanks so much, Dan, for for inviting me to do this. Plug'n Drive is a not for profit. So we're out there trying to educate consumers on the environmental and economic benefits of switching to an electric car. And so most of our work revolves revolves around that outreach and education to help people make the switch. Rebecca Schwartz 05:12 The Government of Canada has set what some might call an aggressive mandate for 100% of new light duty vehicle sales to be zero emissions by 2035. Why has Canada set this mandate? And how does it play into the larger picture of net zero by 2050. Cara Clairman 05:27 So I'm sure a lot of your listeners will know that transportation is actually one of the largest emitting sectors not just here in Canada, but pretty much everywhere around the world. And in fact, in many provinces of Canada, transportation is the number one largest emitter larger than industry larger than buildings. And so we really can't achieve our climate goals if we don't tackle transportation. So of course, tackling transportation is a few, a few different things, not just EVs. But EV is a ready technology that's here that would really, really help in terms of reducing emissions from consumer vehicles, as well as now some medium and even heavy duty. And this opportunity is huge. Because if you just take Ontario, for example, you know, our number one emission source is transportation, and our electricity grid is already extremely clean. We're about 95% emission reduction if we switch to EVs, because our electricity grid here is already about 90 plus percent free of greenhouse gas emissions. And that's true in many provinces of Canada. So if you look at our electricity grid across the country, you have, you know, a number of provinces that are hydro only. So it's, you know, BC, Quebec, Manitoba. And so if you look across the country, we're already about 80% GHG, free pretty much. And so it's just such a perfect match with the with improving the emissions from transportation across Canada, we have an extremely clean energy grid. And if you think about our electricity, here in Ontario, it's mostly nuclear and hydro, a little bit of, of solar and wind, very small amount of natural gas. So we're already about only 5%, five to 8% fossil fuel on the grid. So plugging into our cars into that grid offers a huge emission reduction at about 90 to 95%. So as a long way of saying, you know, requiring new EV sales is a relatively easy way for the government to start making the transition for the transportation personal vehicle fleet, and would allow Canada actually to achieve the net zero by 2050, which it really can't do if it doesn't tackle transportation. Dan Seguin 08:00 Now, Cara, are you able to expand on how Canada's zero emission vehicle mandates compare globally? Are we on par with other countries? Cara Clairman 08:10 Well, I'll answer that question sort of in two parts. How we are now compared to the globe and other countries and how we will be right now I'd say we're a bit behind. Because we don't have an aggressive enough, EV set of EV policies, and we have quite a patchwork across the country in terms of provincial policies. And so our adoption rates are actually on the low side relative to a lot of other countries. I'd say we stand around 10th Right now, you know, in comparison to other countries that have, you know, better policies than we have. However, the policy of zero emission new sales, right, that's just new sales, we'll still have gas cars around for quite a while. zero emission, new sales by 2035. Is, is quite progressive. And I would say it's not the most aggressive policy, there are a few countries ahead of us, like Norway has, you know, a mandate for 2025. And there are a number of European countries that have set 2030. But 2035 is definitely in the pack, I would say in terms of of leadership in the top, you know, 10 or 15 countries. What we really need to do though, is make this a law. You know, right now, we just have a sort of a vague commitment to it and until it's legislated, it really doesn't have a lot of meaning. Rebecca Schwartz 09:42 What are some of the main barriers to zero emission vehicle adoption? Cara Clairman 09:47 Okay, well, there's lots of barriers still remaining, although we're making lots of good progress. We did a survey about four years ago, and I think the results probably would hold true today as well. While asking people about about what was preventing them from choosing an electric vehicle, and actually the number one barrier was price, which surprised us, we expected people to say range or lack of public infrastructure or something like that. But three to one, they actually said, they thought EVs were too expensive. And so we know that the upfront sticker price is is a problem for people, it is still a bit more expensive than the equivalent gas car. What people don't really know is that the total cost of ownership of an EV, even at today's prices is less. But it's always a challenge to help people understand you're going to pay more now and save later. And we have to help people see the advantage of doing that. So I would say you know, cost and then also education because you have to help people understand that total cost of ownership over time. And actually, to help consumers on that specific point, we've, we've put a really great new tool on our website called Find your EV match, which really helps you see the total cost of ownership for for electric vehicles income, and you can even compare an EV to your existing gas car that you currently drive and see your monthly savings. And so this is a really, really important point. I would also say, of course, you know, we do need more infrastructure, and they're still in some range hesitancy concern, but I really believe that the range issue is going away as an issue as the battery technology improves. And of course, as public infrastructure improves. Dan Seguin 11:40 Okay, Cara. How is your organization working to build consumer awareness and education to help remove consumer concerns around EVs? Cara Clairman 11:50 Well, I mean, Dan, this is what we're doing every single day. You know, we've built our whole program around helping the consumer get over their concerns. And so we're quite accustomed to every single concern and question people have. And basically we do it in a couple of ways. We have our EV Discovery Center in Toronto, which is you know, a bricks and mortar facility, people can come learn all about EVs, no pressure to buy anything, and test drive the latest make some models. And we have found through our research that test drive is key to helping people get over their concerns. And that's been a bit of a challenge during COVID, although we are back to doing test drive. And then secondly, we have our mobile EV Discovery Center or our meet, which we take to smaller cities and towns all over to sort of bring the EV Discovery Center concept to them. And so that's a great opportunity for people to learn again, and a no pressure environment is fun. And then we have our roadshow, which you know, where we go out to even farther afield locations for a day or two days to give people that chance where they may not have any, for example, and EV dealers in their community. So we're really trying to reach everyone. And so that so those are the main things that we do. And I would just add the the other program that we have that we find is really helping consumers is our used TV program, which has a rebate attached to it and we're doing this online through webinars, but it's to help people understand who who had that idea. Oh, you know, I love TV, but I think it's just too expensive for me to help them understand that use these are a great opportunity affordable and available and in the webinar we run through a you know sort of everything you need to know to choose the used EV that's right for you. And then Plug'n Drive is offering $1,000 rebate to anyone who lives in Ontario. If you buy a used EV. Dan Seguin 13:53 Wondering if you can tell us about Plug'n Drive's Electric Vehicle Discovery Center and what goes on there? Cara Clairman 13:59 So the Discovery Center is as I said, at bricks and mortar facilities, a sort of imagined Science Center meets cars showroom, you want to see some photos of it, you could just check it out on plugndrive.ca. And the great thing there is it's you know, interactive fun, like I said, like a science center. People come just for fun to learn. And of course, we aren't selling cars. So people don't have that pressure that they feel they sometimes have when they go to a dealership. And then we have all the makes and models sitting right there for people to test drive. And that test drive is so key to helping someone get over their concerns. Because a lot of the times people have a preconceived notion about what an EV might be like, and they don't realize like how fun it is to drive and that these are really fantastic vehicles with great pickup. And it kinda just reminds people of the quality and the fun. And then we can run through with them how much money they're going to save and the emission reductions and our stats tell the story about 35% of the people after visiting the center, within six months have bought an electric car. Rebecca Schwartz 15:07 How can Canadian businesses support the transition to electric vehicles? And how can they acquire access to the proper funding? Cara Clairman 15:14 Yeah, we've started doing a lot of work with businesses. And what we find is, you know, number one, what they can do is look at workplace charging, we know that the home is the number one place, people want to charge about 80% of us plug in our cars at home at night, take advantage of low time of use prices. It's where it's convenient, all those reasons. But the second place people want to charge is that work. And actually, studies at UC California have shown that if someone sees a charger at work, and then talks to a colleague who has an EV at work, they're six times more likely to adopt an electric car. So one of the great things that a business can do is put in some workplace charging, and then also do some education around using that charging and help their employees get on board. And some businesses are even offering an incentive to their employees to consider an EV, especially companies that are looking at their own GHG reduction targets. And transportation might be one of the main emitters of their of their organization. So they can use those chargers for their own fleet. They can electrify their own fleet that way, and they can help their employees. So those are a couple of ways. Businesses can help support the transition. And then you've asked about access to funding there, there is some funding through enter can the program is called ZEVIP Zed E VIP where businesses can apply to get some funding for workplace type charging systems. Dan Seguin 16:51 It would seem that municipalities across Canada have a large part to play to support the government's mandate and to make charging stations more accessible. In your experience. Has this been the case? What's your view on the role municipalities play in the electrification of transit? Cara Clairman 17:09 Yeah, municipalities do have an important role to play. And I think they are starting to recognize it more and more. So for example, one role that municipalities are playing and it's proving really important is in terms of standards for multi unit buildings. So for example, a municipality can require a certain green standard for condos or multi unit buildings being built in their in their territory, and that will ensure that the you know, rough in is there for the plugs in future and that new buildings will get built with you know, with the ability or sort of EV ready to help their citizens because let's face it, especially in the Greater Toronto Area, a lot of people live in multi unit. And we need to make it possible for these people to plug in. There's other roles they can play, for example, we're seeing a lot of municipalities set up you know, their own EV policies for their, you know, for public parking, for example, street parking for for different, making certain municipal lots available for charging, there's there's lots of ways that municipalities can help. And there are, you know, through the associations, there's sharing, I know of EV policies across municipalities that don't have to reinvent the wheel. Rebecca Schwartz 18:32 All right, Cara, can you talk to us about Canada's electric highway? Can we actually drive our EVs coast to coast? Cara Clairman 18:40 Yes, you can. It's still not that easy, I have to say. But the thing I always want to remind is that this is not a trip that many people are doing. You know, maybe some of us have done it once in our life, or, you know, it's the thing that happens very rarely. So it's not as critical. It's more of again, it's a nice to do. It's sort of a psychological thing. People think, oh, it's great if you can, it's still a challenge, but doable and getting easier. You know, it's something that I would say, no, it's not a trip I'm ever going to do and I mean, I drive my car just more locally. So I wouldn't want people to hesitate getting an EV because this isn't the easiest trip to make. Dan Seguin 19:28 It seems that national sales of EVs are closing in on 4%. What are your recommendations to accelerate the deployment of electric vehicles in Canada? Cara Clairman 19:38 Well, there's just a whole bunch of things we need to do. So for example, right now in British Columbia, we're hovering around 10% of new sales, Quebec, close to 8%. Ontario, we're down at 2%. And so you can see that the variability in the different policies are leading to very different results. And so there's a couple of things, we need to make some consistency across Canada because what happens when you have certain provinces with really aggressive policies and certain policies, provinces without it, the vehicle supply goes to those provinces with the more aggressive policies. And then it's really hard for people, for example, in Ontario, to get vehicles, and so that ZEV mandate, or ZEV standard that the federal government is talking about is really important for making, you know, some more consistency across the whole country. So I'm very supportive of that. I'd also like to see some consistent building codes across the country, it seems ridiculous that in 2021, where we still have condos and apartment buildings being built with no potential for EV charging in the future, and it's so much more expensive to do a retrofit than to do it when you're building a building. So the building codes need to be updated, to make sure that the buildings are required to at least rough in for evey charging in the future. So that's another really, really important one. And then, you know, we, you know, I'd like to say that the time of needing incentives is over, it isn't over. We still do need incentives for the next couple of years. I think we're going to hit price parity in a few years time, and then we won't need them anymore. But but for now, I think we do. And because the environmental benefit is so large, I think it makes sense that governments continue to support it. Dan Seguin 21:32 What about charging stations, is charging infrastructure rolling out at the pace to support the transition to 100%, zero emission vehicle sales by 2035. Cara Clairman 21:44 Well, we do still have more work to do in the area of public charging, but again, I'm one of those people who doesn't think this is as critical to the rollout as some other things. You know, as an EV, driver, and Dan, you said, you're also an EV driver, we are charging at home, most of us are charging at home. And we are very occasionally using public charging. I only use public charging a few times a year. And I think I'm pretty typical on a road trip or work trip. And so you do need more infrastructure, we can't have single chargers out there. You know, we need to multiply those we need them to be in strategic locations. We need them to be in places where you can grab a bite to eat and use facilities and all that. So there's work to do, but I am not of the view that this is a primary barrier to evey adoption. Really, the infrastructure you need is at home and it's ready right now. Rebecca Schwartz 22:44 Cara, can you tell us a bit about the sentiment among automotive manufacturers? Are they embracing the transition to EVs at all? Cara Clairman 22:51 Well, we're certainly I mean, you really can't turn on your news or open your your apps, which is how most of us probably get our news these days without seeing a new announcements. So we certainly are seeing the commitment to EVs. In the future, where there's a bit of a struggle, I would say it's sort of right now. Right now in Canada supply is extremely low. It's quite difficult to get vehicles, all the manufacturers are ramping up. But that doesn't happen overnight. And so, you know, we need to do a bit more to get the vehicles in here right now. The exciting thing is, you know, here in Ontario, we're going to be making EVs in the next couple of years. And so the supply challenge will get fixed. And and then we're going to see, I think, you know, just massive changes, but for now the next year to two years, we definitely have a struggle to to bring in the vehicles. And we have to show to the automakers that Canada is a good place for evey adoption, because of course they send the vehicles where they think the best opportunity is to sell them. Dan Seguin 23:55 Cara, just wondering what should consumers know about zero emissions vehicles today? How has technology evolved over the past few years? And are there funding opportunities for consumers looking to purchase one? Cara Clairman 24:09 Well, of course, I want people to know that EVs are a fantastic option right now, what I hear from a lot of consumers, which which is helpful, is you know, yes EVs are the future, I'm sure that we're all going to be driving EVs. But what I think a lot of people don't realize is that they're totally ready for primetime right now. Fantastic quality, good range, everything you really need is already there. And of course, the fun and the super great pickup and all those things too. And so I think, you know, people shouldn't hesitate, that that when they're ready for a new car, this should be good. In terms of funding opportunities. I would say, you know, of course the federal government still has its $5,000 rebate available. And as we you know, in the election, we basically got the same government and they have committed to continue that. So we know that will continue. Some provinces have a provincial incentive that layers on top of that, unfortunately, we don't have that in Ontario right now, which is makes us a little bit of a laggard. Compared to other provinces, there are now six provinces with rebates, which makes it hard for Ontario to attract vehicle. So when people go looking for a vehicle, they're challenged to find one. What I would tell consumers that are looking for one and don't want to have to get on a waiting list is to look at the US market. There's a lot of great options in the US market right now. And of course, as I said, Plug'n Drive has $1,000 incentive to buy a used EV, and an extra $1,000 If you scrap an old gas car and buy a used EV so that's a great option. If you can't find the new vehicle that you're looking for. Rebecca Schwartz 25:54 In your view, Cara, what does the future of Canada look like when it comes to zero emission vehicles? Cara Clairman 26:00 Well, I think I think pretty much everyone has realized even the most Die Hard sort of auto analyst who really really hesitated on EVs. In terms of their reporting. I think even they have realized like this is coming, there's no stopping it. It's, it's the question mark is like how fast and I think groups like mine and other other EV sort of advocacy type groups are really it's all about how can we get this transition to happen faster, because if you agree that climate change is a crisis, we really can't wait for sort of a slow market transition, we need to do everything we can to speed it up. So that includes incentives, that includes building codes, that includes ZEV mandate policies, that includes all sorts of local initiatives to try to encourage people to speed it up. But I do feel very optimistic that you know, we are going to see a huge swing in the direction of EVs even by 2030. Dan Seguin 27:03 Okay, Cara, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions? Cara Clairman 27:08 Okay, skip the skip the favorite word. I really didn't have one. Dan Seguin 27:12 What is the one thing you can't live without? Cara Clairman 27:16 Coffee! Dan Seguin 27:17 What is something that challenges you? Cara Clairman 27:19 Something that challenges me? Well, I mean, I guess the reality is in a nonprofit setting, you're always you're always having to raise money. And so that's always a challenge for anybody in the NGO sector. That's that's probably our biggest challenge. Dan Seguin 27:35 If you could have one superpower, what would it be? Cara Clairman 27:40 Well, I think I would love the teleportation oh my gosh, you know, I love EVs. But let's face it, there's still cars. And, you know, they still contribute to gridlock and traffic and all that. And it would just be so awesome to be able to just teleport to some other location. Dan Seguin 27:58 Now, Cara, if you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell her? Cara Clairman 28:05 I would tell her to do more public speaking. Who knew I would end up doing so much public speaking in my career, I really didn't get started in that till I was much older. And I feel like it's a useful skill for any job just to feel confident talking in front of other people, whether that's five people or 500 people. So I would definitely say get yourself in front of an audience and practice public speaking. Dan Seguin 28:32 And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector? Cara Clairman 28:38 Oh, my gosh, my sector is so fascinating. You know, it's funny because I come from the electricity sector as you do. And I think there's a lot of people with this idea. That's kind of an old, stodgy, boring sector. And so I find it so exciting that there's so many opportunities for innovation. And it's not just EV, it's storage, and renewables and there's just there's just so much of interest happening in the electricity sector. I hope young people are really looking at it for future career options. Rebecca Schwartz 29:09 All right, Cara. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Thanks so much for joining us today. We hope you had fun. Cara Clairman 29:16 I did. Thank you so much for having me. Dan Seguin 29:18 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

The adoption of electric vehicles continues to rise in Canada, with many automakers reporting their EV stock is completely sold out. This shift in social perception from being EV-hesitant to embracing their benefits seems like a big win for society, but are we really ready for this boom in popularity? Loren McDonald of EVAdoption has spent decades analyzing trends in EVs and charging technology, and he joins this episode of thinkenergy to share his thoughts. Related links https://evadoption.com/ https://evstatistics.com/ https://twitter.com/LorenMcDonald https://twitter.com/EVAdoptionTweet https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorenmcdonald/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/evadoption/ --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts To subscribe using Spotify To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: Youtube Check out our cool pics on Instagram. More to learn on Facebook. Keep up with the Tweets. Transcript: Dan Seguin 00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. Get ready to start your engines folks. We've got the EV evangelist on the program today to talk about the current state and future prospects of electric vehicles in North America. Lauren McDonald, known to his followers, as the EV evangelist, has been in the electric vehicle advocates since 1990. Rebecca Schwartz 00:56 As our guest today, Loren will discuss why governments, businesses, the auto industry and the general public are or should be converting to this cleaner and more sustainable mode of transportation. Dan Seguin 01:09 I think we can all foresee that the mass adoption of EVs is imminent, and something that is going to transform the auto industry, but also many, many other sectors including energy. Rebecca Schwartz 01:24 Definitely. A lot has changed in the last few years when it comes to EVs. They were once viewed as an expensive novelty item and something you would buy and use only around the city as simply a secondary vehicle. But technology and attitudes have evolved. Dan Seguin 01:41 You're so right, Rebecca. A few years ago, there weren't a lot of models to choose from, and there still seem to be uncertainty about their viability. But all that is changing fast. General Motors recently announced that by 2035, their entire fleet of vehicles will be entirely electric. Rebecca Schwartz 02:05 And they're not the only ones. Nearly all major automotive companies are committing to electric vehicles, including legacy luxury brands. Jaguar is targeting 2030 to be fully electric. Bentley plans to only have electric and hybrid models by 2026, Mercedes Benz and Porsche also have 2030 in their strategic plans, and who knows, maybe by then I'll be able to afford one of them. Dan Seguin 02:31 I love that you're such an optimist, Rebecca. Even more stunning is that many automakers are reporting that they are completely sold out of their existing EV stock and are now either taking orders or due to demand not taking orders for the next few years. So here is today's big question. Are we finally seeing a social change that will drive electric vehicles into the mainstream? If so, what is behind the gearshift? And are we really prepared to accelerate from zero to 60? Rebecca Schwartz 03:15 Joining us from San Francisco Loren MacDonald of EVadoption.com is a lifelong advocate for the environment and has been analyzing EV and charging trends for decades. He's a thought leader, speaker and content marketer with a passion to help move the world to electric vehicles. Dan Seguin 03:35 Welcome to the show, Loren. Let's start with you telling us a bit about EV adoption. When did you start it? And what was this goal? Loren McDonald 03:46 Yeah, so first of all, thank you so much for having me. Excited to be on the thinkenergy podcast. So the derivation of EV adoption, so I was a lifelong marketer. I won't say how many but many, many decades as a as a marketing executive and marketing evangelist. And so I looked at sort of the EVs and where it was going with that kind of lens and context of it's really a marketing and behavioral economics question, right is of when will EVs cross the chasm into the mainstream if you're familiar with you know, the book and everything around crossing the chasm and so that's really what I saw was missing. You know, if you look at all of the the websites and everything like that, that were covering electric vehicles, it was all about the models and technical stuff. And most everybody was just pure EV advocates and sort of what I like to say sort of pejoratively fanboys right, and everything was going to be up into the right you know, on the on the chart and I'm like, actually, especially in America, you know, we have this thing called the middle of the country and pickups and you know, of late adopters and stuff. So I really wanted to solve and address that question of what are all going to be the hurdles, and the drivers of of sort of mass adoption of EVs. And so that was really sort of the point in goal of it. And it's, it's really taken off. Rebecca Schwartz 05:21 In 2018, you published your three part series on the 24 factors that will affect the rate of EV adoption. Of course, a lot has happened in four years. So how does your list of factors stack up in 2022? Has the needle moved? Or are you still seeing the same issues? 05:40 Yeah, so I would say that, you know, pretty much all of the issues are still there, it's just a matter of scale, some of them have become sort of more or less critical or unimportant. And let's take a look at one, Rebecca is that if you look at range as an example, right, so, uh, you know, in 2011, sort of the first full year that the Nissan LEAF was available in America, the first version, it's 73 miles of range, you know, we'd sort of laugh at that today, you can now get a Nissan LEAF with 225 miles of range, I think it is in the lucid air, you know, it's 520 miles of range, so and then you sort of overlay that with almost every survey of consumers done in the last, you know, half dozen years around EVs, and will, you know, take them to consider an EV or buy an EV, that, you know, that typically around half or more people say 300 miles 300 US miles, right? Because there's a global audience, I'm always be clear on that. And we're actually by the end of this year, we're going to average probably around 285-290 miles of EVs. Right? So we're not quite at that 300 miles, and there's still several below it, and several above it that's, you know, skew that average. But, you know, the first thing is fundamentally, we're switching from range anxiety, to charger anxiety, right? What's what's happening is we're getting close to that magic 300 number. And so most people now are like, yeah, I can buy an EV and and, you know, driving to Grandma's or Disneyland or whatever it is. But can I charge? And how long is it going to take me to charge? And what are the charges work and those kinds of things? So I think that's sort of the sort of the first thing. The second thing I'd say that sort of new, if you will, is I don't know that we necessarily predicted sort of the supply chain issues. Right? And not just, you know, wiring harnesses that are critical to EVs and chips that are critical to EVs. But the latest one that's really been the hottest topic recently is battery, supply chain and minerals, is there going to be enough, you know, lithium and sort of the different minerals that go into it. So that's one that we didn't see. And, you know, both of you are probably familiar with a lot of those charts that showed the price parity, right, that that the price of batteries and EVS and as would come down and and get get close in the next few years with, with ice vehicles, as we like to call them. Internal Combustion Engine, this industry loves acronyms, as you guys know. And there's been some recent studies that are showing that actually, battery costs are going up, right. And so we may not hit price parity until, like, you know, late this decade and stuff. So I know that was a lot. So I'll sort of stop there. But those are some of the I think the key key differences that I'm seeing Dan Seguin 08:49 What has been the most important or significant recent event, in your opinion, that will positively change the future for electric vehicles. 09:00 The I would say there's sort of two things that are that are kind of closely connected. One is the Ford F 150 Lightning, as you as you both probably know, you know, and pickups are pretty popular in Canada as well. But you know, the F 150, the regular F 150 internal combustion engine has been the top selling vehicle, not just pickup, but the top selling vehicle of any type in America, and actually the world for 40 straight years. And so, the fact that this sort of mainstream popular vehicle, a pickup truck, is actually and it's being delivered now, the first deliveries they're starting, like this week of the electric version, is I've called it this the game changer, the single most important EV in history, right? And you could make arguments for lots of different ones for different reasons right? But I think, to go mainstream this signals to those people in the Midwest as an example. Oh, I guess this isn't just for wealthy, you know, granola eating people in California. This is a work truck. This is, you know, this is actually acceptable. And the second part of it, obviously, which, you know, we'll we'll talk a bit about about more later, I'm sure is, you know, the bi-directional charging capability is sort of an eye opener. And then the last thing I would say is just sort of gas prices, right. And so gas prices, again, which I know we'll talk about some more, is making people more aware of alternatives to the internal combustion engine, and so EVs are kind of having their moment right now because of that. Loren McDonald 09:00 Okay, this next question is kind of fun, kind of Mad Libs style. I'm going to ask you to finish this sentence. You can't have electric vehicles without blank..? 11:03 Convenient access to reliable charging. Dan Seguin 11:06 Loren, you were recently interviewed in USA Today about range anxiety due to the lack of EV charging infrastructure. What do you think is hindering a massive North American installation of EV stations? What's the biggest hurdle? 11:24 So I actually don't agree with that assumption. There is you know, as as you probably know, there's about seven and a half billion dollars from the federal government that's going into building out infrastructure there's a lot of publicly held EV charging networks. I literally talk to companies every day that are looking to get into the EV charging industry, I have never seen, you know, one of the my quotes in the USA Today articles was that it's the wild wild west right now, it's this is literally the modern version of 1849, right of the Gold Rush. And that there is so many companies and entrepreneurs and billions of dollars going in. Because this is probably the single biggest business opportunity in the last 100 years, the combination of EVs and EV charging infrastructure, we're fundamentally changing. The, you know, the not only the power train of transportation, but how they're refueled, right with moving from, you know, gas, liquid fuel to electric fuel, right. And so there is just an inordinate amount of energy and focus and money going to it. My concern is, is that we're spending it the wrong way, we're making a lot of a lot of decisions. And we'll talk about this when we talk about Canada in a little bit, but most of the money in the US is going to building out the DC fast charging highway corridor networks, right, which are needed to get the consumers comfortable that they can go from, you know, Seattle to you know, somewhere in Montana or whatever, and stop along the way. And we need that obviously, at some level because people like to take road trips, but the bigger challenges are, you know, how do people charge every day? Right. And you know, there's these you know, your you know, your EV drivers and owners and you know, this for most people, you know, 90 to 95% of your charging is done at home overnight while while you're asleep. Except for those like in America, my estimate is about 40% of US households do not have convenient access to charging overnight, they live in an apartment, they live in a condo, maybe they live in, you know, Manhattan, or Boston or downtown San Francisco and so they don't have a garage, they they're on street parking, right. So, you know, almost half of US households do not have what most of us have, which is you know, we we come home, we pull in the garage, plug in our car, close the garage door, wake up in the morning with a with a full tank, if you will, right. And so if you think about getting over that, you know getting crossing that chasm, getting people over their hurdle of understanding, charging and, and losing sort of fear around it. We have to we have to solve those problems at the same time, right. And so if you look at the money being spent, by the by the you know, the federal government and state government, not enough is going to workplace is going to you know, the multifamily issue, off street parking on street parking, those kinds of things. So I don't think I don't I think the biggest hurdle is that we're not actually solving some of the bigger problems where we tend to be overly focused on sort of those high the highway corridor DC fast charging challenge. Dan Seguin 15:10 Pardon the pun, but who do you think should be leading the charge when it comes to charging infrastructures? Loren McDonald 15:18 You know, that's the $7.5 billion question. I guess we might might say it's a tough one. And I don't I'll answer it several ways. The first is consumers, right. So the consumers and are sort of being left out of a lot of this, this discussion, right. And no offense to a lot of our elected officials, but and I'm just going to make up a number here. 99% of them don't own and drive EVs and they show up for the photo ops, but they actually don't know what they're talking about. Right. They literally don't, there was not going to pick on one, but I think it was our Secretary of Transportation or something. I forgot the secretary of I forget what her role. Anyway, she showed up for a photo op video. And, you know, she mentioned on mic, how do you plug this thing in? Right. Right. And so that's part of the challenge is, you know, going back to my earlier point is that, you know, what, will government, federal, state, local, have to play your role in this, right, because this is this massive transportation. And so we need government involvement for investment, for driving accountability and regulations and things like that, at the same time. You know, most governments are not known for getting things right, all the time. Right. And so I think, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I think a lot of the money is being spent on sort of the easy things and not solving sort of the the hard problems. So I think, you know, it's a collective thing we need, the automakers need to step up more, I mean, one of the things that, you know, is pretty common knowledge is that, you know, and I'm on my second Tesla, and, you know, if you drive a Tesla, charging is seamless, right? Because they designed the car, the charging, in for integration, the, the connector, they own, the networks and stuff. So it's that Apple seamless, closed loop. And so you don't even think about charging. If you own any other brand. It ain't exactly always the best experience, right. And so the automakers are not used to being part of the refueling process, right? Because they outsource it to the oil companies and the gas station operators and stuff. And so this idea that they need to be much more involved directly. In at least in the first couple of decades, right of building out the EV charging infrastructure in the grid, is, you know, they're sort of ret, many of them are reticent to doing it, but we're seeing it like Ford, as an example is getting very involved with Electrify America who they've partnered with, right. And so we are starting to see once they've seen a lot of the problems is that they are stepping up and investing more. GM has invested money, you know, with an EV to build out infrastructure and stuff, but it's, it's nowhere where it needs to be. And the last thing I would say is, I'll sort of throw something out of left field field here a little bit, is that none of the companies we've, we, you know, that are in this mix, including utilities and stuff, have any experience in the refueling business. The ones that do are convenience store chains, convenience stores. Most people don't know this, but like 99% of where people refuel their gas powered car is that convenience store chain, we used to call them gas stations, and then they started adding these little stores. And now they're convenience stores that also have gas pumps, right? They've sort of switched so now those those chains are in the business of selling coffee and cigarettes and beverages and sandwiches and hamburgers and you know, gourmet meals even and they understand that low margin business and so we're starting to see Circle K just announced today you know that they're they're launching their national network in the in the US and you know, 7/11 already announced it so I think we're gonna see and what I'm excited about is the companies that are actually consumer focused and understand how to sell refueling or are going to, you know, get get much more involved in this. And I think that'll help improve the customer experience. Rebecca Schwartz 20:06 Curious to see if there's a wait and see game happening with customers and Evie technology in that tech is changing too quickly and they think a better model is coming and that they should wait. Is this thinking justified? Loren McDonald 20:20 Yeah. I mean, that's sort of natural behavior. You know, you think about, you know, sort of other other technologies. I was one of those people back in March of 2010, that was down standing in line to pick up my Apple iPad. Right. And so, you know, I got it. Like I said, I immediately before even had one I got what the iPad was was all about, I understood it. And I talked to a lot of people that just like, I don't get it, you know, I've got a laptop, I've got a, you know, a smartphone, why? Why would I need this thing in the middle. And so I think kind of any new technologies like that, it's about the technology adoption curve, and it's about early adopters and the innovators. And so EVs are just the same, right? Like these, these early people that were like 12 years into the modern era of EVs, right? And the early people, they're okay, with only 200 miles of range. They're okay with not a great charging network and experience and things like that, right. But the main stream, so you know, the way I think about it, Rebecca, is, we can't worry about those late adopters, like we have this joke that we talked about in the industry that, like if you're on Twitter, and social media, there's always these these people are like, I'm not going to get an EV until an electric truck that can go 500 miles without stopping, and I'm pulling a boat uphill. Right. And, I mean, there literally are lots of people that say that they don't necessarily talk in that tone of voice. But you know, we can't worry about them, because they're not going to buy an EV until 2035 or 2040, or whatever. Anyway, what we have to worry about is, you know, is is like those suburban households, right, that are that are driving a Ford Explorer SUV taking their kids to soccer practice, and school and stuff, like there's no reason, there is literally no reason they shouldn't be driving an EV. Right. And so, but they're not right, so we have to focus on just convincing that sort of low hanging fruit that people that are of, you know, decent incomes, living in a suburban, you know, three, you know, suburban house with a three car garage have to 2.3 cars, like there is no excuse for them. So I think that just sort of the last thing, Rebecca is just that, you know, if you think about like, I don't know, if either of you have solar I you know, we actually went we did solar first before we got our electric car, right? And I've talked to a lot of neighbors, it's like, well, yeah, solar prices, they keep coming down, right? And it's sort of the same thing with with EVs, right? The costs, except for the you know, how we talked about earlier with the rising cost of batteries and stuff, but but EVs are definitely you know, they're the, the batteries are getting more efficient. So there's gonna be more range, there's greater, you know, things like bi directional charging that are coming out all of those things, but, you know, when do you when do you- how long do you wait, the same was solar, right, like, we could have waited another 10 years before we got solar. But, you know, at some point, you just, you know, you have to target the people that are that are ready. And so the other thing of last thing I would say on this is, is something that, you know, that we've done is we've leased our two Tesla's and and here's an interesting anecdote. So our first Tesla was the Model S 60. That had 210 miles of range. And three years later, we got a Tesla Model S 100 D that has 335 miles of range, and we lowered our lease payment and so I think one of the things Rebecca that we're gonna we're gonna see is is that a lot of people because of this sort of technology obsolescence so this idea that you know, every year there's going to be you know, greater autonomous driving technology in the car there's going to be better bi directional charging capability- the car will be able to charge faster, you know, more range, all that kind of stuff. So I think we're gonna probably see, not everyone but but some segment of the argument or some segment of the market you know, opting to lease because then they know every three years, I'll just get the latest and greatest thing. So I think that could be an interesting twist in the market. Rebecca Schwartz 25:08 Now, what do you think customers are waiting for? Exactly? Does the technology already exist? And they're just holding on to some myth of EV from the past? Loren McDonald 25:19 Yeah, I the latter is I think no, like, I don't think most consumers aren't aware of the really cool stuff that's coming, like the bidirectional you know charging and being able to do you know, vehicle to home and stuff like that. I mean, they're starting to hear about it with like, the F 150 and stuff. So and you know, we'll get into that in a few minutes. But I think it's really simple. You know, and not all consumers are the same, but I think what most of them want, is faster charging, right? Most consumers who don't own an EV assume that charging your EV should be sort of the same experience, as you know, refueling a gas car. And so most people are not necessarily expecting that five minutes of refueling time, but most are expecting to add, you know, two to 300 miles of range in, you know, 10 to 15 minutes and stuff. So I think that from a perception perspective, because as EV drivers, you know, and I know, you know, that Dan had said that's not necessarily what you need. But from a from a perception perspective, I think most consumers are waiting for that faster, superfast, high power charging. Dan Seguin 26:38 Loren, are there more similarities or differences between Canada and their US, EV adoption? And their rollout? If so, what are they? Is either country getting it right? Loren McDonald 26:54 Yeah, great, great question. So first, I'd say you know, California and California, US, and, and Canada are, are actually, you know, from a consumer, you know, mindset. And, you know, demographic, psychographic and things like that, I think, I think they're, they're fairly similar, right. And the automakers, I think, tend to look at both markets from, you know, the models, they design and focus on something pretty, pretty similar. So I think, you know, that the, which, which translates to sort of, they want the same things like we've been talking about, you know, more range, faster charging, and things like that. So I think that they're the similarities between sort of the consumers and the automakers and kind of ecosystem is pretty similar. And when you look at sort of where we at from adoption perspective, again, it's pretty similar. Canada was about 5%, in 2021, meaning, you know, one out of 20 new vehicles purchased were electric, and the US was just under 4.5%. So we're, you know, we're, we're pretty close. But if you took California out of that, you know, it drops down to like under 4%, and stuff like that. And so we're, you know, we're a little bit behind on that perspective. But I think, you know, if you think about, you know, and we touched on this, Dan, a few minutes ago, is that, that I think, you know, from the incentive perspective, I think the you know, sort of more of the sort of the point of sale rebate, and something is something that Canada got right. And we haven't gotten right here at the federal level. And the other thing is, and we touched on this is the the investment, the billions of dollars, we're investing in the EV charging infrastructure and how I talked about that a lot of it is focused on those highway corridors and DC fast charging, and the Canadian investment, I'll be it from a dollar perspective, much, much smaller, is is is much more focused on solving real problems. So there's components of it just to build an infrastructure workplace just to build out at apartment complexes and retail locations. And so I think it's a much more balanced approach. So I think Canada's really got those two things right, and that we haven't gotten right here in the US. But the other thing that I think that that both countries are probably getting wrong, or at least the US is there's this focus on EVs as as solving all the world's problems. And the reality is I've done the forecast in in 2030 by my latest forecast in the US 11% of the vehicles on the road will be either an EV or PHEV meaning you know, roughly 90% of the cars on the road are still going to be, you know, gas powered cars. And in fact, there will be more gas powered cars on the road in 2030 than there are today. And, you know, if our goal is to reduce greenhouse gases 50% by 2030, we actually have to look at a much more macro approach to this and BEVs -because I've done them just don't get us there. So we've we've got to look at everything from, I think, a bigger focus on plug in hybrids, because they have lower consumer adoption hurdles, right, you plug in overnight at 20-30 miles, and then you go on a road trip, you go on a road trip and fill up at the gas station, which which the infrastructure is already there, and you only do it a couple times a year, right. But most of the year, you're you're driving on electric, regular hybrids, right? Regular hybrids can actually reduce GHGs by half, right, because, you know, if you get the right, right hybrid, but the other thing that we're just not focused enough on is, is we have to reduce the what what we refer to as VMT, vehicle miles traveled literally by about half in order to stand a chance to get there. So we've got to focus on mass transit, we've got to get people out of cars, walking, biking, you know, ordering from e-commerce companies that use electric vans to deliver the products. So there's sort of less impact there and stuff. So you know, I think that's what probably both our governments are are missing is, is there's too much focus on BEVs as the silver bullet. And in fact, they are going to do nothing to reduce greenhouse gases in the next 10 years. That will slow the increase, but they won't actually reduce it. Rebecca Schwartz 32:04 Are we finally seeing a social change that's driving electric vehicles into the mainstream? And what do you think is the main driver for people? Is it climate change, soaring gas prices? Maybe? Loren McDonald 32:17 It's, you know, it's sort of, you know, Rebecca, it's a, it's a mix of depending on you know, the sort of the psychographic of the consumer, there's sort of get them motivated by different things, a lot of the early adopters have been motivated by, you know, I want to save the planet, I want to do, you know, I want to do something good, just like, you know, those of us that have gone solar, right. Although, actually I went solar, because that part of it was a side benefit, I actually wanted to reduce my utility bill, right. And so I think we're starting to see people motivated by that this idea of, you know, lower total cost of ownership, although I don't think most consumers actually get out their Excel spreadsheet, and do like a 10 year TCO analysis, like a fleet manager would. But I think increasingly, you know, especially with this correlation with gas prices, right now, that people more people are starting to go, oh, EVs aren't just faster, more fun. You know, help save the planet, for lack of a better term. But actually, I don't have to go to gas stations, and I can actually lower my my monthly fuel bill and stuff like that. So I think sort of the, you know, people are starting to get motivated by that. And that's why gas prices, I think, are so critical, especially in America, because they are forcing people to think about what they spend on fuel. And then they starting to understand Oh, you mean, I pay less with my electric car. And so I think I think that's going to start motivating people more and more, besides all the other sort of cool factors and then longer term, you know, which we'll get into as the whole bi directional charging aspect, but we're just not we're not there yet. For that to be a factor. Dan Seguin 33:50 The trend towards beneficial electrification, getting rid of fossil fuels and replacing them with other forms of clean electricity to reduce emissions and energy costs includes the electrification of transportation, are local electric utility companies, the right partner, perhaps? Loren McDonald 34:40 So, like a lot of my answers to that it's going to be a yes and a no. Utilities obviously have to play a critical role in the electrification of transportation since for most people, they are the provider of the electricity to charge your, your electric vehicle, unless you're, you know, completely off the grid. But that's, you know, a very tiny percentage of the population. So they're- the utilities are fundamentally critical to this. And, you know, the electrification of vehicles and electrification of everything, you know, we're moving away from gas stoves to, you know, electric stoves, we're moving away from gas powered leaf blowers to electric lawnmowers, and leaf blowers, etc. So this sort of broader electrification thing is actually the single biggest opportunity for growth for utilities, in probably, again, 100 years, right, because even though we have more devices, they've been getting more efficient, right? Every year, refrigerators, as an example, get more efficient and stuff. So even though we have more of these different, you know, the technology devices and stuff, they're actually using less less power and our lightbulbs, right. And so they're excited and onboard and are key to electrification. And, you know, they're excited because it is this growth opportunity. The problem with utilities is, is that they are utilities, they are in generally speaking, monopolies. And so they have, by and large, there are exceptions in certain states and markets. By and large, they don't have competition, and they are not customer focused, they don't know how to market they don't know how to build great customer experiences and educate and stuff. So they're, and they're also tend to be quasi government like slow moving entities, and they're risk averse, right? So they can be real challenges to this, right, and many of them, many of them, they're sort of scared, and they're scared about bi directional charging as an example, right. And many of them are scared about what this is going to do to their infrastructure costs, because now they're gonna have to beef up, you know, transformers and transmission and all this stuff to be able to, you know, reliably supply, you know, an entire block that all of a sudden has, you know, an EV, in every garage type of thing, right? So, they're, you know, I mean, I don't want to be overly negative towards utilities, they're some of my clients. But, you know, they just, there's this inertia of who they are their DNA. That is, is not ideal set up to be the fuel supplier to owners of EVs, if that makes sense. Loren, as a lifelong advocate for the environment, and in the last many decades for electric vehicles. What does success look like for you? What do you ultimately hoping will be achieved with your advocacy work? So this is easy, smarter decisions. I think, you know, and this is hopefully coming through so far and in the conversation, but I just think there's a lot of decisions and policies being made, that are flawed, and that this has become sort of what you know, what's exciting for me and one of the biggest opportunities is just to be data driven, right is to provide organizations with with data and hopefully accurate forecasts and stuff that help make better decisions about you know, how to scale EVs with consumers and and how to right size and get EV charging at the right, you know, right level and in the right use cases and stuff. So smarter decisions is really my hope and goal. Dan Seguin 38:52 Now, Loren, I have a follow up question for you. What's your prediction based on the current trajectory on the future of EVs? And do you feel more hopeful now than you did say in 2018? Loren McDonald 39:08 So another one of these yes and no answer. So yes, I'm hopeful we might, you know, my my forecast is that so today in the end, I tend to focus just just on the US so today in the US, as I mentioned, in 2021, we had about a little under 4.5% EV sales share, meaning, you know, less than five out of 100 new vehicles purchased last year were either a BEV or a plug in hybrid. My forecast my sort of base level forecast is that we'll hit about 44% it by the end of 2030. Now a year ago, I was in I was at about 30%. And that's how fast things are changing, right because you know, a little over a year ago is an example, Ford was considered a non player in the EV space. And now they're considered perhaps the leader after Tesla, right? I mean, you could argue it's, you know, it's GM, or actually, we could, we could argue about that. But, you know, they're they've, they've gone from sort of and also ran to arguably headed towards being, you know, one of the leaders and definitely, you know, number two spot after Tesla, so a lot of things like that have just like overnight, changed things, and every automaker has, you know, got religion and is announcing, you know, dozens of, of, you know, new models and factories and stuff. So it's, it's, you know, so a year from now, I might be upping up and get again, but right now I'm at that 44%, which is, you know, think about it that's approaching half of the new vehicle sold in America at the end of 2030 would be electric. But as I mentioned, the sort of the downside of that is, is that with that would get us to only 11% of cars on the road being electric. Right? And, and, and if you're just looking if you remove PHEV's from that, you know, it's probably around 8%, or something like that. So, you know, the, the exciting part is, is that we're moving in the right direction direction, we're moving towards, you know, a large number and percentage of vehicles having no tailpipe emissions. On the other hand, gas cars are not going away for another 40 years. Right. And so it's just this, you know, you have, you know, almost 300 million gas powered car, you will have 300 million gas powered cars on the road in a few years. Right? Just look at the math, right? It takes decades to get get rid of all of them unless we did this massive, massive cash for for, you know, clunkers thing and just bought them all and crushed them all, which I don't think we're going to do. Rebecca Schwartz 42:14 Okay, I asked this in another podcast, but we would love to hear your thoughts on vehicle to grid and vehicle to building systems. And if you think they'll become mainstream when regulatory or government barriers are lifted? Loren McDonald 42:26 Yeah, so this is this is one of my my favorite questions and topics. This is to me, the game changer for electric vehicles versus, you know, ICE gas powered cars, right? We talked about you know, EVS being more fun to drive, faster, you know, less less maintenance, all those types of things, but but the one thing that EVs can do that gas powered cars cannot do is become what I call mobile storage, you know, energy devices, right? Energy vehicles, if you will, right and so this is where you know, we're years from this going mainstream Rebecca but but the fact is, like, I have this big Tesla sitting you know, 20 feet from me in the garage that's got 100 kilowatt hour battery, you know, and we drive the car to the supermarket it's a complete waste, right? I mean, it's just the only time we use that battery pack is when we go on a 500 mile road trip the rest of the time, you know, that capacity is is is actually in an inefficient and so the opportunity to leverage that you know, that power wall for you know, to use a brand name to use a battery storage device in your car to power your home to send it to the grid to reduce peak demand and help out the utility and when you know when it when it's hot and vehicle the building which you know, you specifically mentioned is one of my favorite areas because it provides a real ROI to companies so for the audiences not aware of and understands what vehicle the building is, it's where you as a company, incentivize your employees who drive electric vehicles to drive their EV to work park in the parking lot and then you have these bi directional chargers in the parking lot. They plug in and then they're gonna charge but let's say it's the summertime and it's really hot and it's the late afternoon. The employees agree to send extra power that they don't need, you know, they're gonna save enough to the to get back home. But but they send power from the EV basically, into the building. And so instead of that building, running that very expensive air conditioning in a hot summer afternoon to cool it down to 70 degrees or whatever. They're powering the air conditioners with, with with the power from the EVS and, you know, we refer to that as sort of flattening the, you know, the demand curve, right. And that can literally save that that company 10s of 1000s of dollars a year. You know, I was I was down at Lucid Motors a couple years ago, and talking to their CEO and about this, and he joked that he was going to buy a lot of his employees, the, you know, the $100,000, Lucid Air, just so that employees could could plug in and he could save what he thought was maybe a million dollars a year on their PGE, our local, you know, California utility bill a year, I think, you know, I'm not sure quite sure he'd saved a million dollars, but you but you get the idea is that, you know, you can actually use that, that power to cut costs. So I think that that ROI factor is is sort of a real game changer. And then the second thing from a consumer perspective, right, like the headlines right now are about like, you know, Texas again, right, of not having enough power, I was just listening to, you know, the radio this morning, and one of the top stories is about is are the utilities going to have enough power? You know, during during the hot summer, we have things like, you know, a lot of utilities that rely on hydropower, something probably close to your hearts there. The rivers are down, right? And so there's not as much electricity being generated from hydro right? And so you take all these sorts of trends, and, you know, consumers are looking at backup power. And so like one of the hottest things going right now, these backup natural gas generators, right? Well, better would be, you know, just when you need to tap into, you know, power in your EV if the power goes out for two hours or something like that, you can backup your house from the car. So I think that's, you know, Rebecca like the most exciting thing about EVs is that we will be rethinking them as just transportation devices as as becoming, you know, energy storage vehicles. Dan Seguin 47:29 Okay. Now, time to leave it all on the floor. What is something you want the average combustion engine car owner to know about EVs, that maybe they don't already know, Loren, gloves off, go for it! Loren McDonald 47:47 Really, I think pretty, pretty simple that charging your electric vehicle is more like how you charge a smartphone than how you fuel your gas car. Right. And just to expand briefly on that is, you know, most consumers their perception is is that refueling recharging an EV should, is the same as going to a centralized gas station and stuff. And it's not till you own one, and experience it and drive it a lot that you realize no, it's actually more like a smartphone where you know, you, you know, put it in your your bed stand and plug it in, you wake up in the morning, and it's recharged or whatever. And that's the same thing with with your EV. So you have access to home charging, right? Go into the garage plug in, wake up, and it's charged. And, you know, the the, the nuance to that is, is that and I've got this amazing chart that I that I use in presentations that shows like a fuel gauge, for you know, like most consumers when they drive a gas car, what do they do? They drive the car down to empty, quarter of a tank, below empty, whatever they're comfortable with. And then they pull into a gas station and fill it up to full. And you know, this, Dan, that's not how you you refuel an electric vehicle, you replenish what you use, right? So if you drive 30 miles today, you plug in and you replenish that third maybe actually even don't maybe you wait a couple of days, right? You drive it down and then you do it right. It sort of depends on your comfort zone. The only time the refueling experience for an EV is is analogous to gas car is when you go on those road trips, right and those either so you know, a weekend one or a long road trip, and then you do have to do that centralized thing but but otherwise, I think this is the single biggest education hurdle that we have is because it's not something you can explain to people. They actually have to like experience to them. The light bulb goes oh yeah, this is like my Smartphone. Rebecca Schwartz 50:01 Okay, Loren, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. And we've got some for you. Are you ready? Loren McDonald 50:08 I am pumped if I can use that, that term and ready to go! Rebecca Schwartz 50:14 What are you reading right now? Loren McDonald 50:16 I'm reading a book called Hella Town by Michel sporter. And it's all about my hometown of Oakland, California. Rebecca Schwartz 50:23 If you had a boat, what would you name it? Loren McDonald 50:26 I'm gonna go by the Modest Mouse song title of Float On. Rebecca Schwartz 50:31 Who is someone that you admire? Loren McDonald 50:34 Benjamin Franklin. I love Ben Franklin. Rebecca Schwartz 50:39 What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed? Loren McDonald 50:43 The birth of my first daughter. Rebecca Schwartz 50:46 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began? Loren McDonald 50:51 This is an easy one travel. I used to when I worked in the corporate world, I traveled around the world. And, you know, got to you know, see a lot of friends and make new ones. And although yes, I know that was not good for the planet being on on jets. But I really miss I really miss traveling the world and meeting people and seeing friends. That's been the biggest, biggest, the hardest part. Rebecca Schwartz 51:21 Okay, what are you watching? Or rather binge watching on Netflix? And what's your favorite movie or TV show? Loren McDonald 51:28 So I am actually not much of a TV guy. So a thing I'm binging on right now as I'm watching my Golden State Warriors in the NBA Playoffs. But I'll but I'll mention one show the one show that that I did watch. And I'm not sure if it was on Netflix or a different different network. That's how little I watch the things but I watched the series called Unbelievable. That was that was pretty amazing. Dan Seguin 51:54 Lastly, Loren, what is exciting you about your industry right now? Loren McDonald 52:00 The most fascinating thing I think, right now is that when I got into this, the question was, you know, an if question. Right? It was, will EVs become the future, there was even you know, this idea that maybe fuel cell powered vehicles, were going to be the future. And we've really hit this point here in 2022, where there are very few people that are not convinced that EVs are the future. There's still some holdouts and stuff but but most everybody has transitioned from if, to now it's when and so and as a sort of somebody that's really focused on the, you know, the data behind that and behavioral economics I just love working with with clients and companies that are trying to understand how it's going to impact them from a negative perspective, but also more, more excitingly, what are the opportunities for them out of it? Dan Seguin 53:01 Loren, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, and your organization, how would they connect? Loren McDonald 53:16 They can go to evadoption.com they can follow me on LinkedIn. I guess just just search on LinkedIn for Loren McDonald and look for the really handsome guy that has EV somewhere in his in his in his description or whatever. And I'm on Twitter, at Loren McDonald and also EVadoptiontweet. Dan Seguin 53:43 And Loren, again, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you truly had a lot of fun. Cheers. I did it was it was a real honor. Thanks so much for having me on the show. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

Energy storage means more than just batteries. There are many different technologies that could offset peak electricity consumption periods, ultimately preventing the need for expensive, emissions-heavy infrastructure that could lead us away from our clean-energy goals. Justin Rangooni, Executive Director of Energy Storage Canada, joins thinkenergy to explain how energy storage can help meet demand spikes, the importance of supporting wide-scale deployment of renewable energy sources, and much more. Related links https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-rangooni-5063b542/ https://www.energystoragecanada.org/ --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts To subscribe using Spotify To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube Check out our cool pics on Instagram More to Learn on Facebook Keep up with the Tweets Transcript: Dan Seguin 00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today we're going to talk all things energy storage in Canada. We're welcoming back a guest we had on the show in 2020. To see what are some of the recent developments and insights in the energy storage industry that have occurred since our last discussion. Rebecca Schwartz 00:51 Well, when I think of energy storage, I immediately think of batteries, you know, like Duracell, the Energizer Bunny, or even the battery pack in our cell phones- and mine that dies way too often. Honestly, it's pretty cool how we can just carry around these little capsules of energy anywhere we need or want. Dan Seguin 01:09 It's actually a good comparison. But instead of charging your smartphone or powering your flashlight, energy storage is being leveraged on a whole other scale that could hold the key to many of our environmental and energy goals. According to urban insight, energy storage has been identified as the key to climate change mitigation. But globally, only 3 to 4% of electricity generated by utilities is being stored. They estimate that to limit global warming to below two celsius, energy storage capacity needs to triple overall by 2050. Rebecca Schwartz 01:55 Recently, an article was published by Energy Storage Canada about our country's evolving electricity grid, and how energy storage and distributed energy resources are putting increasing expectations on our electricity grid to be more adaptable. Dan Seguin 02:11 Power grids, by their very nature are designed for the fluctuation in electricy demand throughout the day by increasing and decreasing supply when necessary. Energy storage could offset peak electricity consumption periods like in the afternoon, and in early evening when people are returning from work or school. Not to mention our hot and humid summer days when everyone is running their air conditioning units. Rebecca Schwartz 02:42 Storing energy and integrating it when it's needed into the system would prevent more expensive and potentially emission heavy infrastructure from being built. Dan Seguin 02:52 So here's today's big question- what are ways countries like Canada can speed up its storage capacity to suit its demand? And are we on track to make it happen in time? Rebecca Schwartz 03:09 Energy Storage Canada is the national voice for the energy storage industry. They are the only association that's dedicated to advancing energy storage in the country. Justin Rangooni, the Executive Director at Energy Storage Canada is here to talk about how Canada is and isn't charging up the energy storage revolution. Dan Seguin 03:30 Nice to have you back, Justin. Let's dive in because I'm anxious to chat with you about what has changed within the energy storage industry here in Canada since we last spoke in back in November 2020. So let's kick this off with this question. What's been the most significant change in your industry since we last spoke in 2020? Justin Rangooni 03:55 Thanks for the question. Great to be back in two years felt like not even that long ago. So it's really good. Good. Good. Good to chat again. So a lot has happened since we last chatted. So I think when we last spoke, it was all about talking about how at Energy Storage Canada we are trying to talk with decision makers in Ontario and the rest of Canada, about the benefits energy storage provide the system. Reliability, affordability, what have you and all the various services that energy storage can provide. So it's a matter of, of really educating decision makers. So flash fast forward, fast forward two years to today. It's more now, what's really changed is that the decision makers have now recognized that and now as they're doing their system planning and will focus in on Ontario specifically, is as they're talking about system planning and what is going to meet capacity needs and what's going to be used for any decarbonisation efforts. Energy storage is part of that conversation. It's part of that calculus. And this is exactly what we wanted to see and that's what- that's what's really changed. It's now part of that calculus in terms of what's going to happen next. Rebecca Schwartz 05:03 How important is energy storage and supporting wide scale deployment of renewable energy resources so that Canada can meet its net-zero goals? Justin Rangooni 05:11 I think the best response would be I found a new analogy. And it was from the New Yorker in a recent article that talked about the old energy storage provider in terms of optimizing the grids, the assets that are already on the grid. So what they talked about is when in situations when the wind is blowing, the sun is shining, the hydro, the water is flowing, the nuclear plants are humming, energy storage allows electricity grid to inhale. And then when the sun's not blowing, or the winds, that winds not blowing, or the sun's not shining, or the water is not flowing, or the nuclear plants aren't humming, what energy storage allows the grid is to exhale, and deliver that electricity to homes and businesses and to charge devices. And so that's what energy storage can do is to optimize. Rebecca Schwartz 05:56 All right now, is there concern though, that energy storage will affect the grid? Like cause instability or create potential imbalances of supply? And is this maybe where energy storage and renewable energy intersect? Justin Rangooni 06:09 Well, I think what energy storage does is solved some of those problems. What it does is, if it's part of the solution, the overall solution in terms of balancing the grid and optimizing what you have, energy storage can do that. Because one of the benefits of energy storage is that it's portable. It can be it can be situated anywhere in the province or in the country, and of every size and of all the various technologies available, there's lots to choose from. And as system planners can use that as a Swiss Army knife to make, make it work where it has to so we can balance the grid and optimize the assets and provide reliability. So energy storage is is that solution provider for the energy system. Dan Seguin 06:47 Okay. In your opinion, Justin, what's impeding the wider adoption of energy storage across Canada's provinces and territories? Justin Rangooni 06:57 So I think one of them, would it be just an- I think we talked about this two, almost two years ago. It's just a matter of for some systems, operators and governments in certain jurisdictions now, in terms of changing their mindset into away from traditional generation, traditional poles and wires, to see what energy storage and other DER types or non wire solutions can provide to the system. Credit to Ontario and Alberta. And we're seeing this a bit in Nova Scotia. And obviously, in Quebec, they're understanding the role now that energy storage and other non wires alternatives can provide. So they're developing roadmaps, they're reducing regulatory barriers, and they're creating the market mechanisms to really enable energy storage, I think other provinces across the country who are a little bit behind will start to follow suit, as well. Dan Seguin 07:47 Okay, another question here. I think it's safe to say that the economics of storage is improving, and in some cases, has reached cost parity with conventional technology alternatives. Are the high upfront costs a factor that's discouraging more investors? Or is there something else? Justin Rangooni 08:08 I wouldn't say it's- I think what's discouraging investors necessarily with would just be the certainty of where that, where the market mechanisms are going to be for energy storage. So in the US, you have, I think, almost a dozen states, who have a energy storage procurement or energy storage targets. So that's sending a signal to the to the sector and investors that we're looking for energy storage, we're looking for non wire alternatives to put on the grid. So what that's I think that's the biggest thing that others are looking for in Canada is, where's that certainty? Where's that? Where's the path forward for energy storage in the country? So I think in Ontario, we're starting to see that with their capacity needs that are coming up, people are looking at it and saying, okay, energy storage can definitely fill that role. So they're seeing the interest in that. So you're seeing a lot more interest in Ontario for the role of energy storage. Rebecca Schwartz 09:03 All right, Justin, if you had to break it down super quick for someone, what would be your elevator pitch for why we should integrate energy storage into a broader system framework? So if you had one minute to convince them that energy storage is the missing link to accelerating our path, to net-zero, what would you say? Justin Rangooni 09:20 So I won't do the analogy again. But if it was the first time of the elevator, that first I would use the inhaling/exhaling analogy. But what I would say quickly is simply that energy storage is a solution provider. It provides different solutions depending on what the need is. If you need it for reliability reasons to make sure that the lights are going to be on energy storage can play that role by saving that energy when it's needed. Storing the energy when it's when it's when it's needed, and then issuing it and then also for affordability reasons to defer investments and new generation or new poles and wires. There's a lot of different reasons for energy storage, but again, I think that analogy is the best one I've seen so far. Dan Seguin 10:04 Some might not like me for this next one. But here goes Justin, how can energy storage help meet demand spikes, and also reduce or even eliminate the need to maintain or build new gas plants, which are among the dirtiest generators on the grid here in Ontario. Justin Rangooni 10:27 So where energy storage can play that critical role is storing electricity when it's generated at times when maybe you don't need it. So instead of curtailing or spilling water, or unnecessary or maybe importing it, or exporting it at a loss for that excess surplus generation, energy storage can step store that electricity. So when there's peaks in demand, and energy storage can, you know use that the system planners can use the electricity that is stored during those peak demands, and to really start leveling out that need for the new peaker plants or existing peaker plants for that matter. So it's really storing the energy for a future use. And that's, that's why we're so excited about energy storage. Dan Seguin 11:12 Now, in an article you wrote in 2021, you reference that the Independent Electricity System Operator was undertaking a study on the potential phase out of Canada's gas generation. You noted that energy storage Canada was keen to participate in the study. Has there been any movement? What are you hoping to achieve? Justin Rangooni 11:39 So what happens is we last talked is the IESO did kind of, I would call it a preliminary report, on their decarbonisation efforts or the phase out of natural gas. And a lot of stakeholders took issue with it because of the some of the assumptions that were made. And even the Minister of Energy, looked at it and said, you know what, go back and develop the path. So we are eager to see what that path will be now coming out in November, I think the report is due from the IESO. And what we would like to see is a various, a long range of assumptions and scenarios that really get us to that proper path that is cost effective and reliable. The first path kind of just used one scenario. But I think there are very much very different paths to achiev net-Zero in Ontario and in Canada, and what energy storage can provide because there's different technologies because it could be short duration, or long duration, could be pumped storage or flywheels, or batteries, or what have you. And it can be in different locations, throughout the province or throughout the country. There are many different pathways to get there. So that's what we would really like to see in that report. Show us all the different scenarios; show us the cost effectiveness so you have a wide menu, a variety of a menu to choose from. And we think it can be done. In fact, energy storage, Canada will be issuing a report, working on a report right now, that will be done later this year, with regards to how much energy storage will be required in Canada to achieve net-zero by 2035, that the federal government targeted. Because we're hearing a lot of other numbers of saying how we're gonna get there. So we're trying to say as well how much energy storage is going to be required to make that happened. So we look forward to sharing that report with you in the next few months. Rebecca Schwartz 13:22 All right, Justin, are you seeing policy or regulatory movement at the municipal, provincial or federal level, to help facilitate energy storage into future plans? And could you talk a bit to what's encouraging you and maybe touch a little on what's discouraging you? Justin Rangooni 13:38 So I would say encouraging is the example set out in Ontario and Alberta. They they took a concerted effort credit to the Alberta System Operating and credit to the Ontario's IESO for developing a roadmap to say, okay, we know energy storage is coming. So what do we have to do to get our house in order with market rules with regulatory rules with system tool upgrades? So they've really set out a nice path? Obviously, maybe discouraging, we would say and Ontario is okay, you're not, maybe you can get a little faster in terms of really that opportunity of value stacking all the all the values that energy storage can provide, we probably want to see that timeline accelerated a little bit, but at least it's out there. We and we hope that this could serve as a good signpost for other provinces to follow. And we're seeing that hopefully in Nova Scotia, and hopefully maybe we'll see that in Saskatchewan and New Brunswick, what have you trying to say? What is that roadmap to really enabling energy storage because we know it's coming. Dan Seguin 13:38 Now, let's tackle a catchy subject. Cost. How does energy storage protect provinces, cities, utilities and customers against rising demand and energy costs? Justin Rangooni 14:50 So I would probably hark back to our report that we did in the summer of 2020 by Power Advisory for Ontario. We looked at and said well, how if there were at least 1000 megawatts of energy storage on the grid, what would be the impact for ratepayers. And what the power advisory report concluded was with with at least 1000 megawatts of energy storage on the grid, it would save ratepayers approximately $2 billion over the over the next decade. And what they looked at was ways that it was saving ratepayers money. It was deferring invest poles, a traditional poles and wires investments, maybe they don't have to be made right now you can defer some of those. Avoidance or deferral of new power generation, which is costly. So it's, it's those mainly two and again, it's also price, perhaps arbitrage, too where we're seeing, with some larger commercial industrial customers, who have behind the meter storage installed, and are avoiding the high demand times by using the energy storage and it's stored behind the meter to save, save on cost as well. So that's where we're looking at the really the what, what energy storage can provide in terms of affordability issues. And as you mentioned before, the costs of energy storage are going down. And we're talking about batteries, we're seeing a continued decline, and forecasts are showing a decline continuing for the rest of the decade. But again, as with other technologies of energy storage technology, it's all a matter of when do you want to- where do you want to use it and what benefit it's providing? Dan Seguin 16:19 Justin, is it fair to say that most renewable energy, like wind and solar, may require daily energy storage to maximize their benefits and secure against seasonal shortfalls in Canada, when the wind doesn't blow as much like in the summer, and the sun doesn't shine as much like in the winter? Justin Rangooni 16:41 So yes, I think energy storage could definitely optimize that variable, renewable generation. And depending on what the technology you're looking at, it could even be done, you know, hourly too if you have a certain batteries are co-located, or are very close to those the wind and solar assets as well. And again, energy storage also provides that benefit to all forms of generation, it's a matter of storing what's on the grid and the system operators using the tool that energy storage provides to say, well, we don't need all this power that all our generation assets are producing. So we're going to utilize this battery, these energy storage resources, we have to store that excess energy, and then to release it when it's required. So again, if why we're so excited energy storage, because we're just talking about batteries, there's batteries, there's pump storage, there's flywheels, or compressed air, there's thermal storage, there's a lot of possibilities. And they all can play a critical role in optimizing wind and solar assets, and hydro and nuclear assets as well. Dan Seguin 17:42 Now I have a follow up question for you, Justin. What's your prediction based on the current trajectory on how much of all energy use in Canada's 2050 future could be stored at any given time? And why is that important? Justin Rangooni 18:00 So it's probably hard to forecast that number. Now, our report will put a number on what is the minimum to achieve net-zero by 2035. So we will have a number, a national number and broken down by the provinces as well, to see what that number is. But really, it all depends on what the system planner is using the energy storage for. Now, you could have big giant, big energy storage projects, that could be in the almost 1000 megawatts, all the way down to smaller energy storage projects with or in the single digit megawatts or less. So it really depends on what the system planner wants to utilize those energy storage projects for. So it's really tough to tell, I think an example would be right now in California, they have about 3000 megawatts of grid scale connected storage, their peak demand is almost 30,000. So 10% in California, right now, is energy storage, meeting that peak demand. And that's only growing. So again, I think it all depends on what the system planner is looking and the jurisdiction and a lot of factors. But as we're seeing in California, energy storage is playing an increasing critical role to meeting energy needs. Rebecca Schwartz 19:07 Okay, so we've talked a lot about the many applications for energy storage beyond just cost reduction. And I'll go ahead to name a few just now. So we've talked about battery storage, increasing capacity, improving reliability, supporting renewable integration and deferring transmission upgrades. So because of its versatility, and its ability, battery storage, some might say it could be the true Swiss Army knife of grid solutions. What would you tell our audience is the best feature of battery storage? Or maybe what's most impressive secret feature that others aren't aware of? Justin Rangooni 19:44 That's a great question. So I'm gonna do my little public service announcement. And I do this for a lot of decision makers to and others. Well, we alked about energy storage, we should talk about more than just batteries. I know it's easy just to say battery storage and a lot. A lot of a lot of people do that and it's understandable. But again, there's a lot A lot of different energy storage technologies, Energy Storage Canada, we're technology agnostic. So we represent batteries and all the different chemistries of battery, not just lithium there's zinc and there's other chemistries. We also talk about pumped storage and flywheels, thermal storage, mechanical storage, what name you there's, there's a lot of different energy storage technologies coming. So maybe that's part of the secret is that there's so when we talk about energy storage, is that there's so many different technologies there that can be used of different sizes, of different characteristics. And one thing I would say a bit of a secret, probably, that is a secret, but just something we should all remember is the portability of energy storage, this can be put anywhere, depending on the technology, it doesn't have to necessarily be in a certain part of the province or the country that has a good natural resource. It can be put anywhere that the system planner needs it. So as we're talking about even utilities, on the utility distribution side, they'll look at their distribution network and say well, where can energy storage work here? And then obviously, the IESO is looking at it from the grander scheme, the prvoincial scale, and saying well, where does it make sense? And so that's the, that's probably the best kept secret of energy storage, and it can be put anywhere. Dan Seguin 21:10 Having gone through two years of pandemic, what has been the impact of this pandemic, on the energy storage industry? Have there been opportunities that perhaps you weren't aware of before? Justin Rangooni 21:26 That's an interesting topic. I think, what, obviously, the pandemic has been tough on all sectors with supply chain issues, so that that energy storage is no different from what we're seeing in other jurisdictions as well. But what I think it has allowed system operators and governments to do is to think of other ways how to decarbonize how to provide reliability service, how to make the system more affordable, and has allowed them to start thinking a bit about more innovative solutions, like energy storage, and other non wires alternatives. So the pandemic has allowed that opportunity for more positive thinking, and we're starting to see that in other in Ontario, and and throughout Canada. Rebecca Schwartz 22:06 All right, we would love to hear your thoughts on vehicle to grid and vehicle to building systems. And if you think that they'll become mainstream when regulatory barriers are lifted. Justin Rangooni 22:14 So with that one, I think we've worked with some great partners like Plug'n Drive, and others, and there's a few of our members like Peak Power, who are very interested in the vehicle to grid initiative. And where we see a lot of potential obviously, is, with the increased electrification, they hope we'll have a lot more EVs on the road, is we look at that and say, well, your electric vehicle could be your battery for your home, it could be a battery for the local distribution company, if they wanted to utilize it. So in terms of your question of vehicle to grid and what it can do, I think sky's the limit in terms of the innovation, that this could be a real game changer in terms of providing needed electricity when it's required or properly optimizing it. So it's great that people are- utilities and and others are looking at electric vehicles more than just for transportation. It can also power your home, it could help power the distribution network. It's really exciting possibilities. Dan Seguin 23:15 Okay, here's a bonus round question for customers. What's something you want the average electricity customer or homeowner to know about energy storage? Is there a place for them at the table for them to adopt this tech and help reduce climate change or their own emissions now? What are your recommendations? Justin Rangooni 23:40 Great follow up to the last question. I think in the next- the short term answer to that one is to look to electric vehicles. That is your best way as the average homeowner in terms of your own decarbonisation efforts, really, is to get that electric vehicle. And again, with vehicle to grid, there could be a lot of possibilities that can even be more decarbonizing to the grid as well. So I would say to the average homeowner, the car battery electric vehicle can be a storage device for you to be a storage device for your utility, a lot of possibilities. So that I would say and then maybe further on in a few more years time, I think you could start seeing some residential energy storage of devices in the home as well. Again, playing with the the electric vehicle, you have in the car, maybe you have some solar panels on your roof, or again, the utility is seeing that the residential energy storage is a great tool for the utility to use. Again, there's a lot of possibilities down the road for the average homeowner but I'd say you know, electric vehicles are here. There's a lot more I would say go pop, go look at Plug'n Drive's website, go look at your local utility, talk to them, and go to your car dealership and see what electric vehicles are out there. Rebecca Schwartz 24:53 All right, Justin, as you know, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got some new ones for you. Are you ready? Justin Rangooni 25:01 Okay, let's go. Rebecca Schwartz 25:02 What are you reading right now? Justin Rangooni 25:04 Oh, okay, so I am reading the fiery trial about Abraham Lincoln's evolution of his thinking on slavery, pre Civil War and during Civil War, and obviously afterwards a bit. Rebecca Schwartz 25:18 If you had to name a boat, if you had one, what would you name it? Justin Rangooni 25:21 That's a hard one. The only thing that comes to my mind is Boaty McBoatface. That's all like that's, that's it. Rebecca Schwartz 25:27 Who is someone that you admire? Justin Rangooni 25:30 So I should say my parents by now I'm talking to Hydro Ottawa. So my answer will be Bryce Conrad. Rebecca Schwartz 25:35 What's the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed? Justin Rangooni 25:38 Oh, I would say the Toronto Raptors winning the NBA championship. I didn't, I didn't think that would have happened in my lifetime. So it was really magical to see and hopefully we can see it again. Rebecca Schwartz 25:48 What's been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began? Justin Rangooni 25:52 Oh, thebandwidth with the kids were when they were home, with the spouse being home and working. Yeah, it was the bandwidth it was that was that was a challenge. Rebecca Schwartz 26:02 Okay, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite show or movie right now? Justin Rangooni 26:07 Oh, I think we watched Superstore and The Fffice on Netflix on perpetual, perpetual loop. It's a nice comfort watch. Dan Seguin 26:15 Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now? Justin Rangooni 26:21 Well, that's a great, great question to wrap it up on because I think it's this is an exciting sector to be in. I think we're catching the wave right now on some really big possibilities and opportunities for the sector. Because we're energy storage we can provide that value on the utility scale. And through to the distribution side and behind the meter to the residential. I think energy storage is really starting to take off and really becoming seen as a mainstream resource and a tool in our- in Canada's electricity system. So that's what's really exciting and really excited to see what the rest of the decade is going to bring for energy storage. Dan Seguin 26:57 Well, Justin, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. If your listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect? Justin Rangooni 27:10 They can go on to energystoragecanada.org. We have a refreshed website, they can take a look and and find out some more information see all the work that we're doing see a page of our growing membership list, which includes Hydro Ottawa. Also they can attend our conference in October, it will be in person fingers crossed. Downtown Toronto is what we call it the only national conference focused on energy storage. So it's something if you're interested in storage. You don't want to miss it. Dan Seguin 27:41 Again, Justin, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had lots of fun. Justin Rangooni 27:46 I always do. This is fantastic. Thank you so much for having me back. Thank you, Daniel. Dan Seguin 27:50 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.