ThinkEnergy

The adoption of electric vehicles continues to rise in Canada, with many automakers reporting their EV stock is completely sold out. This shift in social perception from being EV-hesitant to embracing their benefits seems like a big win for society, but are we really ready for this boom in popularity? Loren McDonald of EVAdoption has spent decades analyzing trends in EVs and charging technology, and he joins this episode of thinkenergy to share his thoughts.    Related links https://evadoption.com/ https://evstatistics.com/ https://twitter.com/LorenMcDonald https://twitter.com/EVAdoptionTweet https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorenmcdonald/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/evadoption/   --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts   To subscribe using Spotify   To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: Youtube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram.   More to learn on Facebook.   Keep up with the Tweets. Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. Get ready to start your engines folks. We've got the EV evangelist on the program today to talk about the current state and future prospects of electric vehicles in North America. Lauren McDonald, known to his followers, as the EV evangelist, has been in the electric vehicle advocates since 1990.   Rebecca Schwartz  00:56 As our guest today, Loren will discuss why governments, businesses, the auto industry and the general public are or should be converting to this cleaner and more sustainable mode of transportation.   Dan Seguin  01:09 I think we can all foresee that the mass adoption of EVs is imminent, and something that is going to transform the auto industry, but also many, many other sectors including energy.   Rebecca Schwartz  01:24 Definitely. A lot has changed in the last few years when it comes to EVs. They were once viewed as an expensive novelty item and something you would buy and use only around the city as simply a secondary vehicle. But technology and attitudes have evolved.   Dan Seguin  01:41 You're so right, Rebecca. A few years ago, there weren't a lot of models to choose from, and there still seem to be uncertainty about their viability. But all that is changing fast. General Motors recently announced that by 2035, their entire fleet of vehicles will be entirely electric.   Rebecca Schwartz  02:05 And they're not the only ones. Nearly all major automotive companies are committing to electric vehicles, including legacy luxury brands. Jaguar is targeting 2030 to be fully electric. Bentley plans to only have electric and hybrid models by 2026, Mercedes Benz and Porsche also have 2030 in their strategic plans, and who knows, maybe by then I'll be able to afford one of them.   Dan Seguin  02:31 I love that you're such an optimist, Rebecca. Even more stunning is that many automakers are reporting that they are completely sold out of their existing EV stock and are now either taking orders or due to demand not taking orders for the next few years. So here is today's big question. Are we finally seeing a social change that will drive electric vehicles into the mainstream? If so, what is behind the gearshift? And are we really prepared to accelerate from zero to 60?   Rebecca Schwartz  03:15 Joining us from San Francisco Loren MacDonald of EVadoption.com is a lifelong advocate for the environment and has been analyzing EV and charging trends for decades. He's a thought leader, speaker and content marketer with a passion to help move the world to electric vehicles.   Dan Seguin  03:35 Welcome to the show, Loren. Let's start with you telling us a bit about EV adoption. When did you start it? And what was this goal?   Loren McDonald  03:46 Yeah, so first of all, thank you so much for having me. Excited to be on the thinkenergy podcast. So the derivation of EV adoption, so I was a lifelong marketer. I won't say how many but many, many decades as a as a marketing executive and marketing evangelist. And so I looked at sort of the EVs and where it was going with that kind of lens and context of it's really a marketing and behavioral economics question, right is of when will EVs cross the chasm into the mainstream if you're familiar with you know, the book and everything around crossing the chasm and so that's really what I saw was missing. You know, if you look at all of the the websites and everything like that, that were covering electric vehicles, it was all about the models and technical stuff. And most everybody was just pure EV advocates and sort of what I like to say sort of pejoratively fanboys right, and everything was going to be up into the right you know, on the on the chart and I'm like, actually, especially in America, you know, we have this thing called the middle of the country and pickups and you know, of late adopters and stuff. So I really wanted to solve and address that question of what are all going to be the hurdles, and the drivers of of sort of mass adoption of EVs. And so that was really sort of the point in goal of it. And it's, it's really taken off.   Rebecca Schwartz  05:21 In 2018, you published your three part series on the 24 factors that will affect the rate of EV adoption. Of course, a lot has happened in four years. So how does your list of factors stack up in 2022? Has the needle moved? Or are you still seeing the same issues?   05:40 Yeah, so I would say that, you know, pretty much all of the issues are still there, it's just a matter of scale, some of them have become sort of more or less critical or unimportant. And let's take a look at one, Rebecca is that if you look at range as an example, right, so, uh, you know, in 2011, sort of the first full year that the Nissan LEAF was available in America, the first version, it's 73 miles of range, you know, we'd sort of laugh at that today, you can now get a Nissan LEAF with 225 miles of range, I think it is in the lucid air, you know, it's 520 miles of range, so and then you sort of overlay that with almost every survey of consumers done in the last, you know, half dozen years around EVs, and will, you know, take them to consider an EV or buy an EV, that, you know, that typically around half or more people say 300 miles 300 US miles, right? Because there's a global audience, I'm always be clear on that. And we're actually by the end of this year, we're going to average probably around 285-290 miles of EVs. Right? So we're not quite at that 300 miles, and there's still several below it, and several above it that's, you know, skew that average. But, you know, the first thing is fundamentally, we're switching from range anxiety, to charger anxiety, right? What's what's happening is we're getting close to that magic 300 number. And so most people now are like, yeah, I can buy an EV and and, you know, driving to Grandma's or Disneyland or whatever it is. But can I charge? And how long is it going to take me to charge? And what are the charges work and those kinds of things? So I think that's sort of the sort of the first thing. The second thing I'd say that sort of new, if you will, is I don't know that we necessarily predicted sort of the supply chain issues. Right? And not just, you know, wiring harnesses that are critical to EVs and chips that are critical to EVs. But the latest one that's really been the hottest topic recently is battery, supply chain and minerals, is there going to be enough, you know, lithium and sort of the different minerals that go into it. So that's one that we didn't see. And, you know, both of you are probably familiar with a lot of those charts that showed the price parity, right, that that the price of batteries and EVS and as would come down and and get get close in the next few years with, with ice vehicles, as we like to call them. Internal Combustion Engine, this industry loves acronyms, as you guys know. And there's been some recent studies that are showing that actually, battery costs are going up, right. And so we may not hit price parity until, like, you know, late this decade and stuff. So I know that was a lot. So I'll sort of stop there. But those are some of the I think the key key differences that I'm seeing   Dan Seguin  08:49 What has been the most important or significant recent event, in your opinion, that will positively change the future for electric vehicles.   09:00 The I would say there's sort of two things that are that are kind of closely connected. One is the Ford F 150 Lightning, as you as you both probably know, you know, and pickups are pretty popular in Canada as well. But you know, the F 150, the regular F 150 internal combustion engine has been the top selling vehicle, not just pickup, but the top selling vehicle of any type in America, and actually the world for 40 straight years. And so, the fact that this sort of mainstream popular vehicle, a pickup truck, is actually and it's being delivered now, the first deliveries they're starting, like this week of the electric version, is I've called it this the game changer, the single most important EV in history, right? And you could make arguments for lots of different ones for different reasons right? But I think, to go mainstream this signals to those people in the Midwest as an example. Oh, I guess this isn't just for wealthy, you know, granola eating people in California. This is a work truck. This is, you know, this is actually acceptable. And the second part of it, obviously, which, you know, we'll we'll talk a bit about about more later, I'm sure is, you know, the bi-directional charging capability is sort of an eye opener. And then the last thing I would say is just sort of gas prices, right. And so gas prices, again, which I know we'll talk about some more, is making people more aware of alternatives to the internal combustion engine, and so EVs are kind of having their moment right now because of that.   Loren McDonald  09:00 Okay, this next question is kind of fun, kind of Mad Libs style. I'm going to ask you to finish this sentence. You can't have electric vehicles without blank..?   11:03 Convenient access to reliable charging.   Dan Seguin  11:06 Loren, you were recently interviewed in USA Today about range anxiety due to the lack of EV charging infrastructure. What do you think is hindering a massive North American installation of EV stations? What's the biggest hurdle?   11:24 So I actually don't agree with that assumption. There is you know, as as you probably know, there's about seven and a half billion dollars from the federal government that's going into building out infrastructure there's a lot of publicly held EV charging networks. I literally talk to companies every day that are looking to get into the EV charging industry, I have never seen, you know, one of the my quotes in the USA Today articles was that it's the wild wild west right now, it's this is literally the modern version of 1849, right of the Gold Rush. And that there is so many companies and entrepreneurs and billions of dollars going in. Because this is probably the single biggest business opportunity in the last 100 years, the combination of EVs and EV charging infrastructure, we're fundamentally changing. The, you know, the not only the power train of transportation, but how they're refueled, right with moving from, you know, gas, liquid fuel to electric fuel, right. And so there is just an inordinate amount of energy and focus and money going to it. My concern is, is that we're spending it the wrong way, we're making a lot of a lot of decisions. And we'll talk about this when we talk about Canada in a little bit, but most of the money in the US is going to building out the DC fast charging highway corridor networks, right, which are needed to get the consumers comfortable that they can go from, you know, Seattle to you know, somewhere in Montana or whatever, and stop along the way. And we need that obviously, at some level because people like to take road trips, but the bigger challenges are, you know, how do people charge every day? Right. And you know, there's these you know, your you know, your EV drivers and owners and you know, this for most people, you know, 90 to 95% of your charging is done at home overnight while while you're asleep. Except for those like in America, my estimate is about 40% of US households do not have convenient access to charging overnight, they live in an apartment, they live in a condo, maybe they live in, you know, Manhattan, or Boston or downtown San Francisco and so they don't have a garage, they they're on street parking, right. So, you know, almost half of US households do not have what most of us have, which is you know, we we come home, we pull in the garage, plug in our car, close the garage door, wake up in the morning with a with a full tank, if you will, right. And so if you think about getting over that, you know getting crossing that chasm, getting people over their hurdle of understanding, charging and, and losing sort of fear around it. We have to we have to solve those problems at the same time, right. And so if you look at the money being spent, by the by the you know, the federal government and state government, not enough is going to workplace is going to you know, the multifamily issue, off street parking on street parking, those kinds of things. So I don't think I don't I think the biggest hurdle is that we're not actually solving some of the bigger problems where we tend to be overly focused on sort of those high the highway corridor DC fast charging challenge.   Dan Seguin  15:10 Pardon the pun, but who do you think should be leading the charge when it comes to charging infrastructures?   Loren McDonald  15:18 You know, that's the $7.5 billion question. I guess we might might say it's a tough one. And I don't I'll answer it several ways. The first is consumers, right. So the consumers and are sort of being left out of a lot of this, this discussion, right. And no offense to a lot of our elected officials, but and I'm just going to make up a number here. 99% of them don't own and drive EVs and they show up for the photo ops, but they actually don't know what they're talking about. Right. They literally don't, there was not going to pick on one, but I think it was our Secretary of Transportation or something. I forgot the secretary of I forget what her role. Anyway, she showed up for a photo op video. And, you know, she mentioned on mic, how do you plug this thing in? Right. Right. And so that's part of the challenge is, you know, going back to my earlier point is that, you know, what, will government, federal, state, local, have to play your role in this, right, because this is this massive transportation. And so we need government involvement for investment, for driving accountability and regulations and things like that, at the same time. You know, most governments are not known for getting things right, all the time. Right. And so I think, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I think a lot of the money is being spent on sort of the easy things and not solving sort of the the hard problems. So I think, you know, it's a collective thing we need, the automakers need to step up more, I mean, one of the things that, you know, is pretty common knowledge is that, you know, and I'm on my second Tesla, and, you know, if you drive a Tesla, charging is seamless, right? Because they designed the car, the charging, in for integration, the, the connector, they own, the networks and stuff. So it's that Apple seamless, closed loop. And so you don't even think about charging. If you own any other brand. It ain't exactly always the best experience, right. And so the automakers are not used to being part of the refueling process, right? Because they outsource it to the oil companies and the gas station operators and stuff. And so this idea that they need to be much more involved directly. In at least in the first couple of decades, right of building out the EV charging infrastructure in the grid, is, you know, they're sort of ret, many of them are reticent to doing it, but we're seeing it like Ford, as an example is getting very involved with Electrify America who they've partnered with, right. And so we are starting to see once they've seen a lot of the problems is that they are stepping up and investing more. GM has invested money, you know, with an EV to build out infrastructure and stuff, but it's, it's nowhere where it needs to be. And the last thing I would say is, I'll sort of throw something out of left field field here a little bit, is that none of the companies we've, we, you know, that are in this mix, including utilities and stuff, have any experience in the refueling business. The ones that do are convenience store chains, convenience stores. Most people don't know this, but like 99% of where people refuel their gas powered car is that convenience store chain, we used to call them gas stations, and then they started adding these little stores. And now they're convenience stores that also have gas pumps, right? They've sort of switched so now those those chains are in the business of selling coffee and cigarettes and beverages and sandwiches and hamburgers and you know, gourmet meals even and they understand that low margin business and so we're starting to see Circle K just announced today you know that they're they're launching their national network in the in the US and you know, 7/11 already announced it so I think we're gonna see and what I'm excited about is the companies that are actually consumer focused and understand how to sell refueling or are going to, you know, get get much more involved in this. And I think that'll help improve the customer experience.   Rebecca Schwartz  20:06 Curious to see if there's a wait and see game happening with customers and Evie technology in that tech is changing too quickly and they think a better model is coming and that they should wait. Is this thinking justified?   Loren McDonald  20:20 Yeah. I mean, that's sort of natural behavior. You know, you think about, you know, sort of other other technologies. I was one of those people back in March of 2010, that was down standing in line to pick up my Apple iPad. Right. And so, you know, I got it. Like I said, I immediately before even had one I got what the iPad was was all about, I understood it. And I talked to a lot of people that just like, I don't get it, you know, I've got a laptop, I've got a, you know, a smartphone, why? Why would I need this thing in the middle. And so I think kind of any new technologies like that, it's about the technology adoption curve, and it's about early adopters and the innovators. And so EVs are just the same, right? Like these, these early people that were like 12 years into the modern era of EVs, right? And the early people, they're okay, with only 200 miles of range. They're okay with not a great charging network and experience and things like that, right. But the main stream, so you know, the way I think about it, Rebecca, is, we can't worry about those late adopters, like we have this joke that we talked about in the industry that, like if you're on Twitter, and social media, there's always these these people are like, I'm not going to get an EV until an electric truck that can go 500 miles without stopping, and I'm pulling a boat uphill. Right. And, I mean, there literally are lots of people that say that they don't necessarily talk in that tone of voice. But you know, we can't worry about them, because they're not going to buy an EV until 2035 or 2040, or whatever. Anyway, what we have to worry about is, you know, is is like those suburban households, right, that are that are driving a Ford Explorer SUV taking their kids to soccer practice, and school and stuff, like there's no reason, there is literally no reason they shouldn't be driving an EV. Right. And so, but they're not right, so we have to focus on just convincing that sort of low hanging fruit that people that are of, you know, decent incomes, living in a suburban, you know, three, you know, suburban house with a three car garage have to 2.3 cars, like there is no excuse for them. So I think that just sort of the last thing, Rebecca is just that, you know, if you think about like, I don't know, if either of you have solar I you know, we actually went we did solar first before we got our electric car, right? And I've talked to a lot of neighbors, it's like, well, yeah, solar prices, they keep coming down, right? And it's sort of the same thing with with EVs, right? The costs, except for the you know, how we talked about earlier with the rising cost of batteries and stuff, but but EVs are definitely you know, they're the, the batteries are getting more efficient. So there's gonna be more range, there's greater, you know, things like bi directional charging that are coming out all of those things, but, you know, when do you when do you- how long do you wait, the same was solar, right, like, we could have waited another 10 years before we got solar. But, you know, at some point, you just, you know, you have to target the people that are that are ready. And so the other thing of last thing I would say on this is, is something that, you know, that we've done is we've leased our two Tesla's and and here's an interesting anecdote. So our first Tesla was the Model S 60. That had 210 miles of range. And three years later, we got a Tesla Model S 100 D that has 335 miles of range, and we lowered our lease payment and so I think one of the things Rebecca that we're gonna we're gonna see is is that a lot of people because of this sort of technology obsolescence so this idea that you know, every year there's going to be you know, greater autonomous driving technology in the car there's going to be better bi directional charging capability- the car will be able to charge faster, you know, more range, all that kind of stuff. So I think we're gonna probably see, not everyone but but some segment of the argument or some segment of the market you know, opting to lease because then they know every three years, I'll just get the latest and greatest thing. So I think that could be an interesting twist in the market.   Rebecca Schwartz  25:08 Now, what do you think customers are waiting for? Exactly? Does the technology already exist? And they're just holding on to some myth of EV from the past?   Loren McDonald  25:19 Yeah, I the latter is I think no, like, I don't think most consumers aren't aware of the really cool stuff that's coming, like the bidirectional you know charging and being able to do you know, vehicle to home and stuff like that. I mean, they're starting to hear about it with like, the F 150 and stuff. So and you know, we'll get into that in a few minutes. But I think it's really simple. You know, and not all consumers are the same, but I think what most of them want, is faster charging, right? Most consumers who don't own an EV assume that charging your EV should be sort of the same experience, as you know, refueling a gas car. And so most people are not necessarily expecting that five minutes of refueling time, but most are expecting to add, you know, two to 300 miles of range in, you know, 10 to 15 minutes and stuff. So I think that from a perception perspective, because as EV drivers, you know, and I know, you know, that Dan had said that's not necessarily what you need. But from a from a perception perspective, I think most consumers are waiting for that faster, superfast, high power charging.   Dan Seguin  26:38 Loren, are there more similarities or differences between Canada and their US, EV adoption? And their rollout? If so, what are they? Is either country getting it right?   Loren McDonald  26:54 Yeah, great, great question. So first, I'd say you know, California and California, US, and, and Canada are, are actually, you know, from a consumer, you know, mindset. And, you know, demographic, psychographic and things like that, I think, I think they're, they're fairly similar, right. And the automakers, I think, tend to look at both markets from, you know, the models, they design and focus on something pretty, pretty similar. So I think, you know, that the, which, which translates to sort of, they want the same things like we've been talking about, you know, more range, faster charging, and things like that. So I think that they're the similarities between sort of the consumers and the automakers and kind of ecosystem is pretty similar. And when you look at sort of where we at from adoption perspective, again, it's pretty similar. Canada was about 5%, in 2021, meaning, you know, one out of 20 new vehicles purchased were electric, and the US was just under 4.5%. So we're, you know, we're, we're pretty close. But if you took California out of that, you know, it drops down to like under 4%, and stuff like that. And so we're, you know, we're a little bit behind on that perspective. But I think, you know, if you think about, you know, and we touched on this, Dan, a few minutes ago, is that, that I think, you know, from the incentive perspective, I think the you know, sort of more of the sort of the point of sale rebate, and something is something that Canada got right. And we haven't gotten right here at the federal level. And the other thing is, and we touched on this is the the investment, the billions of dollars, we're investing in the EV charging infrastructure and how I talked about that a lot of it is focused on those highway corridors and DC fast charging, and the Canadian investment, I'll be it from a dollar perspective, much, much smaller, is is is much more focused on solving real problems. So there's components of it just to build an infrastructure workplace just to build out at apartment complexes and retail locations. And so I think it's a much more balanced approach. So I think Canada's really got those two things right, and that we haven't gotten right here in the US. But the other thing that I think that that both countries are probably getting wrong, or at least the US is there's this focus on EVs as as solving all the world's problems. And the reality is I've done the forecast in in 2030 by my latest forecast in the US 11% of the vehicles on the road will be either an EV or PHEV meaning you know, roughly 90% of the cars on the road are still going to be, you know, gas powered cars. And in fact, there will be more gas powered cars on the road in 2030 than there are today. And, you know, if our goal is to reduce greenhouse gases 50% by 2030, we actually have to look at a much more macro approach to this and BEVs -because I've done them just don't get us there. So we've we've got to look at everything from, I think, a bigger focus on plug in hybrids, because they have lower consumer adoption hurdles, right, you plug in overnight at 20-30 miles, and then you go on a road trip, you go on a road trip and fill up at the gas station, which which the infrastructure is already there, and you only do it a couple times a year, right. But most of the year, you're you're driving on electric, regular hybrids, right? Regular hybrids can actually reduce GHGs by half, right, because, you know, if you get the right, right hybrid, but the other thing that we're just not focused enough on is, is we have to reduce the what what we refer to as VMT, vehicle miles traveled literally by about half in order to stand a chance to get there. So we've got to focus on mass transit, we've got to get people out of cars, walking, biking, you know, ordering from e-commerce companies that use electric vans to deliver the products. So there's sort of less impact there and stuff. So you know, I think that's what probably both our governments are are missing is, is there's too much focus on BEVs as the silver bullet. And in fact, they are going to do nothing to reduce greenhouse gases in the next 10 years. That will slow the increase, but they won't actually reduce it.   Rebecca Schwartz  32:04 Are we finally seeing a social change that's driving electric vehicles into the mainstream? And what do you think is the main driver for people? Is it climate change, soaring gas prices? Maybe?   Loren McDonald  32:17 It's, you know, it's sort of, you know, Rebecca, it's a, it's a mix of depending on you know, the sort of the psychographic of the consumer, there's sort of get them motivated by different things, a lot of the early adopters have been motivated by, you know, I want to save the planet, I want to do, you know, I want to do something good, just like, you know, those of us that have gone solar, right. Although, actually I went solar, because that part of it was a side benefit, I actually wanted to reduce my utility bill, right. And so I think we're starting to see people motivated by that this idea of, you know, lower total cost of ownership, although I don't think most consumers actually get out their Excel spreadsheet, and do like a 10 year TCO analysis, like a fleet manager would. But I think increasingly, you know, especially with this correlation with gas prices, right now, that people more people are starting to go, oh, EVs aren't just faster, more fun. You know, help save the planet, for lack of a better term. But actually, I don't have to go to gas stations, and I can actually lower my my monthly fuel bill and stuff like that. So I think sort of the, you know, people are starting to get motivated by that. And that's why gas prices, I think, are so critical, especially in America, because they are forcing people to think about what they spend on fuel. And then they starting to understand Oh, you mean, I pay less with my electric car. And so I think I think that's going to start motivating people more and more, besides all the other sort of cool factors and then longer term, you know, which we'll get into as the whole bi directional charging aspect, but we're just not we're not there yet. For that to be a factor.   Dan Seguin  33:50 The trend towards beneficial electrification, getting rid of fossil fuels and replacing them with other forms of clean electricity to reduce emissions and energy costs includes the electrification of transportation, are local electric utility companies, the right partner, perhaps?   Loren McDonald  34:40 So, like a lot of my answers to that it's going to be a yes and a no. Utilities obviously have to play a critical role in the electrification of transportation since for most people, they are the provider of the electricity to charge your, your electric vehicle, unless you're, you know, completely off the grid. But that's, you know, a very tiny percentage of the population. So they're- the utilities are fundamentally critical to this. And, you know, the electrification of vehicles and electrification of everything, you know, we're moving away from gas stoves to, you know, electric stoves, we're moving away from gas powered leaf blowers to electric lawnmowers, and leaf blowers, etc. So this sort of broader electrification thing is actually the single biggest opportunity for growth for utilities, in probably, again, 100 years, right, because even though we have more devices, they've been getting more efficient, right? Every year, refrigerators, as an example, get more efficient and stuff. So even though we have more of these different, you know, the technology devices and stuff, they're actually using less less power and our lightbulbs, right. And so they're excited and onboard and are key to electrification. And, you know, they're excited because it is this growth opportunity. The problem with utilities is, is that they are utilities, they are in generally speaking, monopolies. And so they have, by and large, there are exceptions in certain states and markets. By and large, they don't have competition, and they are not customer focused, they don't know how to market they don't know how to build great customer experiences and educate and stuff. So they're, and they're also tend to be quasi government like slow moving entities, and they're risk averse, right? So they can be real challenges to this, right, and many of them, many of them, they're sort of scared, and they're scared about bi directional charging as an example, right. And many of them are scared about what this is going to do to their infrastructure costs, because now they're gonna have to beef up, you know, transformers and transmission and all this stuff to be able to, you know, reliably supply, you know, an entire block that all of a sudden has, you know, an EV, in every garage type of thing, right? So, they're, you know, I mean, I don't want to be overly negative towards utilities, they're some of my clients. But, you know, they just, there's this inertia of who they are their DNA. That is, is not ideal set up to be the fuel supplier to owners of EVs, if that makes sense.  Loren, as a lifelong advocate for the environment, and in the last many decades for electric vehicles. What does success look like for you? What do you ultimately hoping will be achieved with your advocacy work? So this is easy, smarter decisions. I think, you know, and this is hopefully coming through so far and in the conversation, but I just think there's a lot of decisions and policies being made, that are flawed, and that this has become sort of what you know, what's exciting for me and one of the biggest opportunities is just to be data driven, right is to provide organizations with with data and hopefully accurate forecasts and stuff that help make better decisions about you know, how to scale EVs with consumers and and how to right size and get EV charging at the right, you know, right level and in the right use cases and stuff. So smarter decisions is really my hope and goal.   Dan Seguin  38:52 Now, Loren, I have a follow up question for you. What's your prediction based on the current trajectory on the future of EVs? And do you feel more hopeful now than you did say in 2018?   Loren McDonald  39:08 So another one of these yes and no answer. So yes, I'm hopeful we might, you know, my my forecast is that so today in the end, I tend to focus just just on the US so today in the US, as I mentioned, in 2021, we had about a little under 4.5% EV sales share, meaning, you know, less than five out of 100 new vehicles purchased last year were either a BEV or a plug in hybrid. My forecast my sort of base level forecast is that we'll hit about 44% it by the end of 2030. Now a year ago, I was in I was at about 30%. And that's how fast things are changing, right because you know, a little over a year ago is an example, Ford was considered a non player in the EV space. And now they're considered perhaps the leader after Tesla, right? I mean, you could argue it's, you know, it's GM, or actually, we could, we could argue about that. But, you know, they're they've, they've gone from sort of and also ran to arguably headed towards being, you know, one of the leaders and definitely, you know, number two spot after Tesla, so a lot of things like that have just like overnight, changed things, and every automaker has, you know, got religion and is announcing, you know, dozens of, of, you know, new models and factories and stuff. So it's, it's, you know, so a year from now, I might be upping up and get again, but right now I'm at that 44%, which is, you know, think about it that's approaching half of the new vehicle sold in America at the end of 2030 would be electric. But as I mentioned, the sort of the downside of that is, is that with that would get us to only 11% of cars on the road being electric. Right? And, and, and if you're just looking if you remove PHEV's from that, you know, it's probably around 8%, or something like that. So, you know, the, the exciting part is, is that we're moving in the right direction direction, we're moving towards, you know, a large number and percentage of vehicles having no tailpipe emissions. On the other hand, gas cars are not going away for another 40 years. Right. And so it's just this, you know, you have, you know, almost 300 million gas powered car, you will have 300 million gas powered cars on the road in a few years. Right? Just look at the math, right? It takes decades to get get rid of all of them unless we did this massive, massive cash for for, you know, clunkers thing and just bought them all and crushed them all, which I don't think we're going to do.   Rebecca Schwartz  42:14 Okay, I asked this in another podcast, but we would love to hear your thoughts on vehicle to grid and vehicle to building systems. And if you think they'll become mainstream when regulatory or government barriers are lifted?   Loren McDonald  42:26 Yeah, so this is this is one of my my favorite questions and topics. This is to me, the game changer for electric vehicles versus, you know, ICE gas powered cars, right? We talked about you know, EVS being more fun to drive, faster, you know, less less maintenance, all those types of things, but but the one thing that EVs can do that gas powered cars cannot do is become what I call mobile storage, you know, energy devices, right? Energy vehicles, if you will, right and so this is where you know, we're years from this going mainstream Rebecca but but the fact is, like, I have this big Tesla sitting you know, 20 feet from me in the garage that's got 100 kilowatt hour battery, you know, and we drive the car to the supermarket it's a complete waste, right? I mean, it's just the only time we use that battery pack is when we go on a 500 mile road trip the rest of the time, you know, that capacity is is is actually in an inefficient and so the opportunity to leverage that you know, that power wall for you know, to use a brand name to use a battery storage device in your car to power your home to send it to the grid to reduce peak demand and help out the utility and when you know when it when it's hot and vehicle the building which you know, you specifically mentioned is one of my favorite areas because it provides a real ROI to companies so for the audiences not aware of and understands what vehicle the building is, it's where you as a company, incentivize your employees who drive electric vehicles to drive their EV to work park in the parking lot and then you have these bi directional chargers in the parking lot. They plug in and then they're gonna charge but let's say it's the summertime and it's really hot and it's the late afternoon. The employees agree to send extra power that they don't need, you know, they're gonna save enough to the to get back home. But but they send power from the EV basically, into the building. And so instead of that building, running that very expensive air conditioning in a hot summer afternoon to cool it down to 70 degrees or whatever. They're powering the air conditioners with, with with the power from the EVS and, you know, we refer to that as sort of flattening the, you know, the demand curve, right. And that can literally save that that company 10s of 1000s of dollars a year. You know, I was I was down at Lucid Motors a couple years ago, and talking to their CEO and about this, and he joked that he was going to buy a lot of his employees, the, you know, the $100,000, Lucid Air, just so that employees could could plug in and he could save what he thought was maybe a million dollars a year on their PGE, our local, you know, California utility bill a year, I think, you know, I'm not sure quite sure he'd saved a million dollars, but you but you get the idea is that, you know, you can actually use that, that power to cut costs. So I think that that ROI factor is is sort of a real game changer. And then the second thing from a consumer perspective, right, like the headlines right now are about like, you know, Texas again, right, of not having enough power, I was just listening to, you know, the radio this morning, and one of the top stories is about is are the utilities going to have enough power? You know, during during the hot summer, we have things like, you know, a lot of utilities that rely on hydropower, something probably close to your hearts there. The rivers are down, right? And so there's not as much electricity being generated from hydro right? And so you take all these sorts of trends, and, you know, consumers are looking at backup power. And so like one of the hottest things going right now, these backup natural gas generators, right? Well, better would be, you know, just when you need to tap into, you know, power in your EV if the power goes out for two hours or something like that, you can backup your house from the car. So I think that's, you know, Rebecca like the most exciting thing about EVs is that we will be rethinking them as just transportation devices as as becoming, you know, energy storage vehicles.   Dan Seguin  47:29 Okay. Now, time to leave it all on the floor. What is something you want the average combustion engine car owner to know about EVs, that maybe they don't already know, Loren, gloves off, go for it!   Loren McDonald  47:47 Really, I think pretty, pretty simple that charging your electric vehicle is more like how you charge a smartphone than how you fuel your gas car. Right. And just to expand briefly on that is, you know, most consumers their perception is is that refueling recharging an EV should, is the same as going to a centralized gas station and stuff. And it's not till you own one, and experience it and drive it a lot that you realize no, it's actually more like a smartphone where you know, you, you know, put it in your your bed stand and plug it in, you wake up in the morning, and it's recharged or whatever. And that's the same thing with with your EV. So you have access to home charging, right? Go into the garage plug in, wake up, and it's charged. And, you know, the the, the nuance to that is, is that and I've got this amazing chart that I that I use in presentations that shows like a fuel gauge, for you know, like most consumers when they drive a gas car, what do they do? They drive the car down to empty, quarter of a tank, below empty, whatever they're comfortable with. And then they pull into a gas station and fill it up to full. And you know, this, Dan, that's not how you you refuel an electric vehicle, you replenish what you use, right? So if you drive 30 miles today, you plug in and you replenish that third maybe actually even don't maybe you wait a couple of days, right? You drive it down and then you do it right. It sort of depends on your comfort zone. The only time the refueling experience for an EV is is analogous to gas car is when you go on those road trips, right and those either so you know, a weekend one or a long road trip, and then you do have to do that centralized thing but but otherwise, I think this is the single biggest education hurdle that we have is because it's not something you can explain to people. They actually have to like experience to them. The light bulb goes oh yeah, this is like my Smartphone.   Rebecca Schwartz  50:01 Okay, Loren, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. And we've got some for you. Are you ready?   Loren McDonald  50:08 I am pumped if I can use that, that term and ready to go!   Rebecca Schwartz  50:14 What are you reading right now?   Loren McDonald  50:16 I'm reading a book called Hella Town by Michel sporter. And it's all about my hometown of Oakland, California.   Rebecca Schwartz  50:23 If you had a boat, what would you name it?   Loren McDonald  50:26 I'm gonna go by the Modest Mouse song title of Float On.   Rebecca Schwartz  50:31 Who is someone that you admire?   Loren McDonald  50:34 Benjamin Franklin. I love Ben Franklin.   Rebecca Schwartz  50:39 What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Loren McDonald  50:43 The birth of my first daughter.   Rebecca Schwartz  50:46 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Loren McDonald  50:51 This is an easy one travel. I used to when I worked in the corporate world, I traveled around the world. And, you know, got to you know, see a lot of friends and make new ones. And although yes, I know that was not good for the planet being on on jets. But I really miss I really miss traveling the world and meeting people and seeing friends. That's been the biggest, biggest, the hardest part.   Rebecca Schwartz  51:21 Okay, what are you watching? Or rather binge watching on Netflix? And what's your favorite movie or TV show?   Loren McDonald  51:28 So I am actually not much of a TV guy. So a thing I'm binging on right now as I'm watching my Golden State Warriors in the NBA Playoffs. But I'll but I'll mention one show the one show that that I did watch. And I'm not sure if it was on Netflix or a different different network. That's how little I watch the things but I watched the series called Unbelievable. That was that was pretty amazing.   Dan Seguin  51:54 Lastly, Loren, what is exciting you about your industry right now?   Loren McDonald  52:00 The most fascinating thing I think, right now is that when I got into this, the question was, you know, an if question. Right? It was, will EVs become the future, there was even you know, this idea that maybe fuel cell powered vehicles, were going to be the future. And we've really hit this point here in 2022, where there are very few people that are not convinced that EVs are the future. There's still some holdouts and stuff but but most everybody has transitioned from if, to now it's when and so and as a sort of somebody that's really focused on the, you know, the data behind that and behavioral economics I just love working with with clients and companies that are trying to understand how it's going to impact them from a negative perspective, but also more, more excitingly, what are the opportunities for them out of it?   Dan Seguin  53:01 Loren, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, and your organization, how would they connect?   Loren McDonald  53:16 They can go to evadoption.com they can follow me on LinkedIn. I guess just just search on LinkedIn for Loren McDonald and look for the really handsome guy that has EV somewhere in his in his in his description or whatever. And I'm on Twitter, at Loren McDonald and also EVadoptiontweet.   Dan Seguin  53:43 And Loren, again, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you truly had a lot of fun. Cheers.  I did it was it was a real honor. Thanks so much for having me on the show. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

Energy storage means more than just batteries. There are many different technologies that could offset peak electricity consumption periods, ultimately preventing the need for expensive, emissions-heavy infrastructure that could lead us away from our clean-energy goals. Justin Rangooni, Executive Director of Energy Storage Canada, joins thinkenergy to explain how energy storage can help meet demand spikes, the importance of supporting wide-scale deployment of renewable energy sources, and much more.    Related links https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-rangooni-5063b542/ https://www.energystoragecanada.org/   --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts To subscribe using Spotify To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube Check out our cool pics on Instagram More to Learn on Facebook Keep up with the Tweets Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today we're going to talk all things energy storage in Canada. We're welcoming back a guest we had on the show in 2020. To see what are some of the recent developments and insights in the energy storage industry that have occurred since our last discussion.   Rebecca Schwartz  00:51 Well, when I think of energy storage, I immediately think of batteries, you know, like Duracell, the Energizer Bunny, or even the battery pack in our cell phones- and mine that dies way too often. Honestly, it's pretty cool how we can just carry around these little capsules of energy anywhere we need or want.   Dan Seguin  01:09 It's actually a good comparison. But instead of charging your smartphone or powering your flashlight, energy storage is being leveraged on a whole other scale that could hold the key to many of our environmental and energy goals. According to urban insight, energy storage has been identified as the key to climate change mitigation. But globally, only 3 to 4% of electricity generated by utilities is being stored. They estimate that to limit global warming to below two celsius, energy storage capacity needs to triple overall by 2050.   Rebecca Schwartz  01:55 Recently, an article was published by Energy Storage Canada about our country's evolving electricity grid, and how energy storage and distributed energy resources are putting increasing expectations on our electricity grid to be more adaptable.   Dan Seguin  02:11 Power grids, by their very nature are designed for the fluctuation in electricy demand throughout the day by increasing and decreasing supply when necessary. Energy storage could offset peak electricity consumption periods like in the afternoon, and in early evening when people are returning from work or school. Not to mention our hot and humid summer days when everyone is running their air conditioning units.   Rebecca Schwartz  02:42 Storing energy and integrating it when it's needed into the system would prevent more expensive and potentially emission heavy infrastructure from being built.   Dan Seguin  02:52 So here's today's big question- what are ways countries like Canada can speed up its storage capacity to suit its demand? And are we on track to make it happen in time?   Rebecca Schwartz  03:09 Energy Storage Canada is the national voice for the energy storage industry. They are the only association that's dedicated to advancing energy storage in the country. Justin Rangooni, the Executive Director at Energy Storage Canada is here to talk about how Canada is and isn't charging up the energy storage revolution.   Dan Seguin  03:30 Nice to have you back, Justin. Let's dive in because I'm anxious to chat with you about what has changed within the energy storage industry here in Canada since we last spoke in back in November 2020. So let's kick this off with this question. What's been the most significant change in your industry since we last spoke in 2020?   Justin Rangooni  03:55 Thanks for the question. Great to be back in two years felt like not even that long ago. So it's really good. Good. Good. Good to chat again. So a lot has happened since we last chatted. So I think when we last spoke, it was all about talking about how at Energy Storage Canada we are trying to talk with decision makers in Ontario and the rest of Canada, about the benefits energy storage provide the system. Reliability, affordability, what have you and all the various services that energy storage can provide. So it's a matter of, of really educating decision makers. So flash fast forward, fast forward two years to today. It's more now, what's really changed is that the decision makers have now recognized that and now as they're doing their system planning and will focus in on Ontario specifically, is as they're talking about system planning and what is going to meet capacity needs and what's going to be used for any decarbonisation efforts. Energy storage is part of that conversation. It's part of that calculus. And this is exactly what we wanted to see and that's what- that's what's really changed. It's now part of that calculus in terms of what's going to happen next.   Rebecca Schwartz  05:03 How important is energy storage and supporting wide scale deployment of renewable energy resources so that Canada can meet its net-zero goals?   Justin Rangooni  05:11 I think the best response would be I found a new analogy. And it was from the New Yorker in a recent article that talked about the old energy storage provider in terms of optimizing the grids, the assets that are already on the grid. So what they talked about is when in situations when the wind is blowing, the sun is shining, the hydro, the water is flowing, the nuclear plants are humming, energy storage allows electricity grid to inhale. And then when the sun's not blowing, or the winds, that winds not blowing, or the sun's not shining, or the water is not flowing, or the nuclear plants aren't humming, what energy storage allows the grid is to exhale, and deliver that electricity to homes and businesses and to charge devices. And so that's what energy storage can do is to optimize.   Rebecca Schwartz  05:56 All right now, is there concern though, that energy storage will affect the grid? Like cause instability or create potential imbalances of supply? And is this maybe where energy storage and renewable energy intersect?   Justin Rangooni  06:09 Well, I think what energy storage does is solved some of those problems. What it does is, if it's part of the solution, the overall solution in terms of balancing the grid and optimizing what you have, energy storage can do that. Because one of the benefits of energy storage is that it's portable. It can be it can be situated anywhere in the province or in the country, and of every size and of all the various technologies available, there's lots to choose from. And as system planners can use that as a Swiss Army knife to make, make it work where it has to so we can balance the grid and optimize the assets and provide reliability. So energy storage is is that solution provider for the energy system.   Dan Seguin  06:47 Okay. In your opinion, Justin, what's impeding the wider adoption of energy storage across Canada's provinces and territories?   Justin Rangooni  06:57 So I think one of them, would it be just an- I think we talked about this two, almost two years ago. It's just a matter of for some systems, operators and governments in certain jurisdictions now, in terms of changing their mindset into away from traditional generation, traditional poles and wires, to see what energy storage and other DER types or non wire solutions can provide to the system. Credit to Ontario and Alberta. And we're seeing this a bit in Nova Scotia. And obviously, in Quebec, they're understanding the role now that energy storage and other non wires alternatives can provide. So they're developing roadmaps, they're reducing regulatory barriers, and they're creating the market mechanisms to really enable energy storage, I think other provinces across the country who are a little bit behind will start to follow suit, as well.   Dan Seguin  07:47 Okay, another question here. I think it's safe to say that the economics of storage is improving, and in some cases, has reached cost parity with conventional technology alternatives. Are the high upfront costs a factor that's discouraging more investors? Or is there something else?   Justin Rangooni  08:08 I wouldn't say it's- I think what's discouraging investors necessarily with would just be the certainty of where that, where the market mechanisms are going to be for energy storage. So in the US, you have, I think, almost a dozen states, who have a energy storage procurement or energy storage targets. So that's sending a signal to the to the sector and investors that we're looking for energy storage, we're looking for non wire alternatives to put on the grid. So what that's I think that's the biggest thing that others are looking for in Canada is, where's that certainty? Where's that? Where's the path forward for energy storage in the country? So I think in Ontario, we're starting to see that with their capacity needs that are coming up, people are looking at it and saying, okay, energy storage can definitely fill that role. So they're seeing the interest in that. So you're seeing a lot more interest in Ontario for the role of energy storage.   Rebecca Schwartz  09:03 All right, Justin, if you had to break it down super quick for someone, what would be your elevator pitch for why we should integrate energy storage into a broader system framework? So if you had one minute to convince them that energy storage is the missing link to accelerating our path, to net-zero, what would you say?   Justin Rangooni  09:20 So I won't do the analogy again. But if it was the first time of the elevator, that first I would use the inhaling/exhaling analogy. But what I would say quickly is simply that energy storage is a solution provider. It provides different solutions depending on what the need is. If you need it for reliability reasons to make sure that the lights are going to be on energy storage can play that role by saving that energy when it's needed. Storing the energy when it's when it's when it's needed, and then issuing it and then also for affordability reasons to defer investments and new generation or new poles and wires. There's a lot of different reasons for energy storage, but again, I think that analogy is the best one I've seen so far.   Dan Seguin  10:04 Some might not like me for this next one. But here goes Justin, how can energy storage help meet demand spikes, and also reduce or even eliminate the need to maintain or build new gas plants, which are among the dirtiest generators on the grid here in Ontario.   Justin Rangooni  10:27 So where energy storage can play that critical role is storing electricity when it's generated at times when maybe you don't need it. So instead of curtailing or spilling water, or unnecessary or maybe importing it, or exporting it at a loss for that excess surplus generation, energy storage can step store that electricity. So when there's peaks in demand, and energy storage can, you know use that the system planners can use the electricity that is stored during those peak demands, and to really start leveling out that need for the new peaker plants or existing peaker plants for that matter. So it's really storing the energy for a future use. And that's, that's why we're so excited about energy storage.   Dan Seguin  11:12 Now, in an article you wrote in 2021, you reference that the Independent Electricity System Operator was undertaking a study on the potential phase out of Canada's gas generation. You noted that energy storage Canada was keen to participate in the study. Has there been any movement? What are you hoping to achieve?   Justin Rangooni  11:39 So what happens is we last talked is the IESO did kind of, I would call it a preliminary report, on their decarbonisation efforts or the phase out of natural gas. And a lot of stakeholders took issue with it because of the some of the assumptions that were made. And even the Minister of Energy, looked at it and said, you know what, go back and develop the path. So we are eager to see what that path will be now coming out in November, I think the report is due from the IESO. And what we would like to see is a various, a long range of assumptions and scenarios that really get us to that proper path that is cost effective and reliable. The first path kind of just used one scenario. But I think there are very much very different paths to achiev net-Zero in Ontario and in Canada, and what energy storage can provide because there's different technologies because it could be short duration, or long duration, could be pumped storage or flywheels, or batteries, or what have you. And it can be in different locations, throughout the province or throughout the country. There are many different pathways to get there. So that's what we would really like to see in that report. Show us all the different scenarios; show us the cost effectiveness so you have a wide menu, a variety of a menu to choose from. And we think it can be done. In fact, energy storage, Canada will be issuing a report, working on a report right now, that will be done later this year, with regards to how much energy storage will be required in Canada to achieve net-zero by 2035, that the federal government targeted. Because we're hearing a lot of other numbers of saying how we're gonna get there. So we're trying to say as well how much energy storage is going to be required to make that happened. So we look forward to sharing that report with you in the next few months.   Rebecca Schwartz  13:22 All right, Justin, are you seeing policy or regulatory movement at the municipal, provincial or federal level, to help facilitate energy storage into future plans? And could you talk a bit to what's encouraging you and maybe touch a little on what's discouraging you?   Justin Rangooni  13:38 So I would say encouraging is the example set out in Ontario and Alberta. They they took a concerted effort credit to the Alberta System Operating and credit to the Ontario's IESO for developing a roadmap to say, okay, we know energy storage is coming. So what do we have to do to get our house in order with market rules with regulatory rules with system tool upgrades? So they've really set out a nice path? Obviously, maybe discouraging, we would say and Ontario is okay, you're not, maybe you can get a little faster in terms of really that opportunity of value stacking all the all the values that energy storage can provide, we probably want to see that timeline accelerated a little bit, but at least it's out there. We and we hope that this could serve as a good signpost for other provinces to follow. And we're seeing that hopefully in Nova Scotia, and hopefully maybe we'll see that in Saskatchewan and New Brunswick, what have you trying to say? What is that roadmap to really enabling energy storage because we know it's coming.   Dan Seguin  13:38 Now, let's tackle a catchy subject. Cost. How does energy storage protect provinces, cities, utilities and customers against rising demand and energy costs?   Justin Rangooni  14:50 So I would probably hark back to our report that we did in the summer of 2020 by Power Advisory for Ontario. We looked at and said well, how if there were at least 1000 megawatts of energy storage on the grid, what would be the impact for ratepayers. And what the power advisory report concluded was with with at least 1000 megawatts of energy storage on the grid, it would save ratepayers approximately $2 billion over the over the next decade. And what they looked at was ways that it was saving ratepayers money. It was deferring invest poles, a traditional poles and wires investments, maybe they don't have to be made right now you can defer some of those. Avoidance or deferral of new power generation, which is costly. So it's, it's those mainly two and again, it's also price, perhaps arbitrage, too where we're seeing, with some larger commercial industrial customers, who have behind the meter storage installed, and are avoiding the high demand times by using the energy storage and it's stored behind the meter to save, save on cost as well. So that's where we're looking at the really the what, what energy storage can provide in terms of affordability issues. And as you mentioned before, the costs of energy storage are going down. And we're talking about batteries, we're seeing a continued decline, and forecasts are showing a decline continuing for the rest of the decade. But again, as with other technologies of energy storage technology, it's all a matter of when do you want to- where do you want to use it and what benefit it's providing?   Dan Seguin  16:19 Justin, is it fair to say that most renewable energy, like wind and solar, may require daily energy storage to maximize their benefits and secure against seasonal shortfalls in Canada, when the wind doesn't blow as much like in the summer, and the sun doesn't shine as much like in the winter?   Justin Rangooni  16:41 So yes, I think energy storage could definitely optimize that variable, renewable generation. And depending on what the technology you're looking at, it could even be done, you know, hourly too if you have a certain batteries are co-located, or are very close to those the wind and solar assets as well. And again, energy storage also provides that benefit to all forms of generation, it's a matter of storing what's on the grid and the system operators using the tool that energy storage provides to say, well, we don't need all this power that all our generation assets are producing. So we're going to utilize this battery, these energy storage resources, we have to store that excess energy, and then to release it when it's required. So again, if why we're so excited energy storage, because we're just talking about batteries, there's batteries, there's pump storage, there's flywheels, or compressed air, there's thermal storage, there's a lot of possibilities. And they all can play a critical role in optimizing wind and solar assets, and hydro and nuclear assets as well.   Dan Seguin  17:42 Now I have a follow up question for you, Justin. What's your prediction based on the current trajectory on how much of all energy use in Canada's 2050 future could be stored at any given time? And why is that important?   Justin Rangooni  18:00 So it's probably hard to forecast that number. Now, our report will put a number on what is the minimum to achieve net-zero by 2035. So we will have a number, a national number and broken down by the provinces as well, to see what that number is. But really, it all depends on what the system planner is using the energy storage for. Now, you could have big giant, big energy storage projects, that could be in the almost 1000 megawatts, all the way down to smaller energy storage projects with or in the single digit megawatts or less. So it really depends on what the system planner wants to utilize those energy storage projects for. So it's really tough to tell, I think an example would be right now in California, they have about 3000 megawatts of grid scale connected storage, their peak demand is almost 30,000. So 10% in California, right now, is energy storage, meeting that peak demand. And that's only growing. So again, I think it all depends on what the system planner is looking and the jurisdiction and a lot of factors. But as we're seeing in California, energy storage is playing an increasing critical role to meeting energy needs.   Rebecca Schwartz  19:07 Okay, so we've talked a lot about the many applications for energy storage beyond just cost reduction. And I'll go ahead to name a few just now. So we've talked about battery storage, increasing capacity, improving reliability, supporting renewable integration and deferring transmission upgrades. So because of its versatility, and its ability, battery storage, some might say it could be the true Swiss Army knife of grid solutions. What would you tell our audience is the best feature of battery storage? Or maybe what's most impressive secret feature that others aren't aware of?   Justin Rangooni  19:44 That's a great question. So I'm gonna do my little public service announcement. And I do this for a lot of decision makers to and others. Well, we alked about energy storage, we should talk about more than just batteries. I know it's easy just to say battery storage and a lot. A lot of a lot of people do that and it's understandable. But again, there's a lot A lot of different energy storage technologies, Energy Storage Canada, we're technology agnostic. So we represent batteries and all the different chemistries of battery, not just lithium there's zinc and there's other chemistries. We also talk about pumped storage and flywheels, thermal storage, mechanical storage, what name you there's, there's a lot of different energy storage technologies coming. So maybe that's part of the secret is that there's so when we talk about energy storage, is that there's so many different technologies there that can be used of different sizes, of different characteristics. And one thing I would say a bit of a secret, probably, that is a secret, but just something we should all remember is the portability of energy storage, this can be put anywhere, depending on the technology, it doesn't have to necessarily be in a certain part of the province or the country that has a good natural resource. It can be put anywhere that the system planner needs it. So as we're talking about even utilities, on the utility distribution side, they'll look at their distribution network and say well, where can energy storage work here? And then obviously, the IESO is looking at it from the grander scheme, the prvoincial scale, and saying well, where does it make sense? And so that's the, that's probably the best kept secret of energy storage, and it can be put anywhere.   Dan Seguin  21:10 Having gone through two years of pandemic, what has been the impact of this pandemic, on the energy storage industry? Have there been opportunities that perhaps you weren't aware of before?   Justin Rangooni  21:26 That's an interesting topic. I think, what, obviously, the pandemic has been tough on all sectors with supply chain issues, so that that energy storage is no different from what we're seeing in other jurisdictions as well. But what I think it has allowed system operators and governments to do is to think of other ways how to decarbonize how to provide reliability service, how to make the system more affordable, and has allowed them to start thinking a bit about more innovative solutions, like energy storage, and other non wires alternatives. So the pandemic has allowed that opportunity for more positive thinking, and we're starting to see that in other in Ontario, and and throughout Canada.   Rebecca Schwartz  22:06 All right, we would love to hear your thoughts on vehicle to grid and vehicle to building systems. And if you think that they'll become mainstream when regulatory barriers are lifted.   Justin Rangooni  22:14 So with that one, I think we've worked with some great partners like Plug'n Drive, and others, and there's a few of our members like Peak Power, who are very interested in the vehicle to grid initiative. And where we see a lot of potential obviously, is, with the increased electrification, they hope we'll have a lot more EVs on the road, is we look at that and say, well, your electric vehicle could be your battery for your home, it could be a battery for the local distribution company, if they wanted to utilize it. So in terms of your question of vehicle to grid and what it can do, I think sky's the limit in terms of the innovation, that this could be a real game changer in terms of providing needed electricity when it's required or properly optimizing it. So it's great that people are- utilities and and others are looking at electric vehicles more than just for transportation. It can also power your home, it could help power the distribution network. It's really exciting possibilities.   Dan Seguin  23:15 Okay, here's a bonus round question for customers. What's something you want the average electricity customer or homeowner to know about energy storage? Is there a place for them at the table for them to adopt this tech and help reduce climate change or their own emissions now? What are your recommendations?   Justin Rangooni  23:40 Great follow up to the last question. I think in the next- the short term answer to that one is to look to electric vehicles. That is your best way as the average homeowner in terms of your own decarbonisation efforts, really, is to get that electric vehicle. And again, with vehicle to grid, there could be a lot of possibilities that can even be more decarbonizing to the grid as well. So I would say to the average homeowner, the car battery electric vehicle can be a storage device for you to be a storage device for your utility, a lot of possibilities. So that I would say and then maybe further on in a few more years time, I think you could start seeing some residential energy storage of devices in the home as well. Again, playing with the the electric vehicle, you have in the car, maybe you have some solar panels on your roof, or again, the utility is seeing that the residential energy storage is a great tool for the utility to use. Again, there's a lot of possibilities down the road for the average homeowner but I'd say you know, electric vehicles are here. There's a lot more I would say go pop, go look at Plug'n Drive's website, go look at your local utility, talk to them, and go to your car dealership and see what electric vehicles are out there.   Rebecca Schwartz  24:53 All right, Justin, as you know, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got some new ones for you. Are you ready?   Justin Rangooni  25:01 Okay, let's go.   Rebecca Schwartz  25:02 What are you reading right now?   Justin Rangooni  25:04 Oh, okay, so I am reading the fiery trial about Abraham Lincoln's evolution of his thinking on slavery, pre Civil War and during Civil War, and obviously afterwards a bit.   Rebecca Schwartz  25:18 If you had to name a boat, if you had one, what would you name it?   Justin Rangooni  25:21 That's a hard one. The only thing that comes to my mind is Boaty McBoatface. That's all like that's, that's it.   Rebecca Schwartz  25:27 Who is someone that you admire?   Justin Rangooni  25:30 So I should say my parents by now I'm talking to Hydro Ottawa. So my answer will be Bryce Conrad.   Rebecca Schwartz  25:35 What's the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Justin Rangooni  25:38 Oh, I would say the Toronto Raptors winning the NBA championship. I didn't, I didn't think that would have happened in my lifetime. So it was really magical to see and hopefully we can see it again.   Rebecca Schwartz  25:48 What's been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Justin Rangooni  25:52 Oh, thebandwidth with the kids were when they were home, with the spouse being home and working. Yeah, it was the bandwidth it was that was that was a challenge.   Rebecca Schwartz  26:02 Okay, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite show or movie right now?   Justin Rangooni  26:07 Oh, I think we watched Superstore and The Fffice on Netflix on perpetual, perpetual loop. It's a nice comfort watch.   Dan Seguin  26:15 Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?   Justin Rangooni  26:21 Well, that's a great, great question to wrap it up on because I think it's this is an exciting sector to be in. I think we're catching the wave right now on some really big possibilities and opportunities for the sector. Because we're energy storage we can provide that value on the utility scale. And through to the distribution side and behind the meter to the residential. I think energy storage is really starting to take off and really becoming seen as a mainstream resource and a tool in our- in Canada's electricity system. So that's what's really exciting and really excited to see what the rest of the decade is going to bring for energy storage.   Dan Seguin  26:57 Well, Justin, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. If your listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?   Justin Rangooni  27:10 They can go on to energystoragecanada.org. We have a refreshed website, they can take a look and and find out some more information see all the work that we're doing see a page of our growing membership list, which includes Hydro Ottawa. Also they can attend our conference in October, it will be in person fingers crossed. Downtown Toronto is what we call it the only national conference focused on energy storage. So it's something if you're interested in storage. You don't want to miss it.   Dan Seguin  27:41 Again, Justin, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had lots of fun.   Justin Rangooni  27:46 I always do. This is fantastic. Thank you so much for having me back. Thank you, Daniel.   Dan Seguin  27:50 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. On today's show, we're going to talk about buildings and the critical role they play in our country's transition to a lower carbon, and eventual net zero future. They're where we live, work and play. But buildings are responsible for 40% of global energy consumption, and about a third of the world's greenhouse gas emissions.   Rebecca Schwartz  01:00 That number is pretty significant. But becoming net zero is going to take money, and new technology, new infrastructure, and a complete overhaul of how we construct, heat, and cool our buildings.   Dan Seguin  01:11 As we talked about on the show, many times technology is evolving at an accelerated rate. So much so that even today's most highly evolved smart buildings may be considered just the norm or standard a decade from now. So when is the right time for property developers and owners to jump in and lower their emissions and environmental impact?   Rebecca Schwartz  01:37 The majority of commercial buildings we see now are more than 30 years old. So, there's a desperate need for energy efficient retrofits and upgrades. A lot goes into retrofitting an existing building to make it smart and attractive, comfortable, sustainable, and of course cost efficient. It involves much more than just updating your aging HVAC or stepping up the lighting by putting in a few fancy things you may have bought off Amazon.   Dan Seguin  02:03 So, here's today's big question. What kind of planning needs to take place today to help future proof or new and existing commercial buildings, so they can lower their carbon footprint and eventually achieve their net zero target later?   Rebecca Schwartz  02:21 Our special guest today is Terry young. He's the Vice President of Operations at KRP Properties. Terry manages a portfolio of more than 30 commercial properties in Ottawa's high tech hub in Kanata. Welcome to the show.   Dan Seguin  02:35 Hey, Terry, how are you? We know that buildings contribute 1/3 of greenhouse gas emissions globally. What are some of the steps that developers and property owners should consider or be aware of when it comes to future proofing their buildings and why?   Terry Young  02:52 So, I think one thing is understanding the current state of your building. Many of us, we've run pieces of real estate, but we really don't know how it's running or where it sits, or how efficient it is. So, I think the first thing you got to do is understand where your building is, in terms of your carbon burn, your energy burn, etc. And, you know, that's probably the first step to start with today. How much energy are we using? And can I be more efficient?   Dan Seguin  03:20 Now, how practical is it for building owners to adopt these new technologies?   Terry Young  03:27 So I think it's quite practical actually. And like we've been, we've been very fortunate to have a really good relationship with Hydro Ottawa, and we've actually been involved with Envari, and we monitor our utility burns in real time. So, with every 15 minutes, or whatever it is, I can tell you exactly how much energy we're burning- both utility wise, energy being electricity, gas and water. Now, you can't, if you don't monitor, you can't change. So basically, the first step is to start monitoring. And we've been very fortunate. Likewise, the software that they we've provided, they can, you know, there's some analytical data that we provide, to understand trends, to understand where your building is moving, etc. So, yeah, it's quite practical. Now, it's not cheap. And, but, you know, I think it's so worth it.   Rebecca Schwartz  04:18 Maybe a good place to start is what exactly is a smart building? And what are some examples of how technology can connect tenants and property managers in ways that matter?   Terry Young  04:29 So, I think there's a lot of definitions on smart buildings because- talk to five people, you have five different answers. But, I think, if I were to give you a definition of what a smart building is it is centralized control. Basically I can control pretty much anything in the building from one central area. We have the temperature, the humidity, the HVAC systems, the electrical systems, the lighting systems. And so, I think that's what I would call a smart building. That's such, Rebecca, this can be scaled as well. But you can have a really small amount of smart so you can have very large amount of smarts, but it's the same kind of linear path what you're trying to get to, right.   Dan Seguin  05:08 Terry, is it fair to say that we're not only talking about the health of the building, or its impact on the environment, but also the health and comfort of its occupants? What are some of the positive ways smart buildings impact the people who use them?   Terry Young  05:25 There's so many things that- the quality of the environment is you know, there's studies out there, and I've read 50 of them, if I've read 100, about, you know, you're going to increase your quality of work, your air quality, your ability to quickly get to the office, your ability to department quickly, all of these things actually adds directly to productivity lines. There are many companies out there that can actually monitor how much and what product can be looked like. And there's a direct correlation to building help. Absolutely, technology can easily assist you in that. Now, when I say assist, you still need to have a lot of background. And, yes, you're building has to be intelligent to do this. But, there's direct correlation; absolutely between, you know, how, how well you're running your building, how smart your building is, and productivity of the occupants inside that building. Right.   Dan Seguin  06:19 Okay, here's a follow up question. Do you think future proofing may now include reducing the spread of germs in buildings? Have you seen anything that might stick around after COVID-19? Like, temperature readings before employees enter the building, maybe even ventilation standards,   Terry Young  06:40 The ASHRAE Standard. So ASHRAE is an organization that sort of monitors, and regulates, I suppose, how air gets distributed within a facility, a very, very good organization. When COVID first hit, they actually put out a different way of running your buildings, and they set parameters on how to do that. I think that's going to be part of the course moving forward. For sure. I'm not sure heat or temperature, taking your temperature, anything, if that's going to continue. However, you know, we have- there's a lot of face recognition currently available right now, that actually are coinciding with your door passes, and your fob keys, as soon as they see your face, it opens your door. It's easily known. And it's already built into a lot of these platforms that it takes your temperature, whether that's going to be moving forward, I'm not sure. I do think that how people are running their buildings is going to be at or will continue to be at a really, really higher level than it was in the past, because our clients are demanding this. The unfortunate part is, you know, back 30-40 years ago, when we built a lot of these buildings that the systems that were there were built very much to code at the time, but they don't exceed or they aren't to code now. So what we're having to do is as the asset needs to be replaced, we do and we are able to put in that bigger, better system. But the ductwork and the existing spaces are only so big, so it can't do what a hospital does, for instance, and not to bore you or your audience here, but you know, a hospital can actually do a many, many air filtration changes any like they literally take all the air out of one space and take it out and put fresh air in much more effectively and efficiently than a normal commercial building would because that's the way it is. So, we, you know, we have some work to do for sure. We have put a number, when I say a number, it's probably 20 or 30 things that we've done to test and fine tune because we were always kind of doing them. And these are like special MERV rating filters through mechanical air filtration units, humidity control, all of this stuff, we fine tune. And now we monitor and are very aware, on a, you know, a real time basis on the quality of that air that gets pumped in there and how many times we can actually filter that air out. So we're very, very aware. And I think that's going to be something that you're going to see building owners and property owners really having a cognizant awareness of how that works.   Rebecca Schwartz  09:18 As climate change continues to evolve, the demand for space heating and cooling rises along with it. Many organizations are seeing their heating, ventilation and air conditioning system taking the most significant bite out of their bottom line. So my question to you is, what options exist? And what does the future of smart HVAC tech look like?   Terry Young  09:39 So I can speak for an hour here. I know we don't have an hour. But you know, in the last two or three years or maybe last five or six years now we've taken up three or four gigs off our grid out here, just by running. I shouldn't say that- in conjunction with asset replacement, but just by running our buildings better and faster, more efficiently. So you think about it, you know, three gigs is a lot of electricity, right? So, and this is through our analytical software, and this is all, and I should, I should say probably 60 or 70% of that savings, this has come from our ability to run things more efficiently. And basically, you know, to simplify it. We have a bunch of data that we get fed in and we have analytics that actually feed that data and understand it a million times a second kind of thing. No human could do it. But they create efficiencies in the system. So if you look at, you know, from a climate change perspective, and if you're not running these analytical platforms you're behind. Likewise, the minute you turn these things on, it's an instant 15 or 20% savings. So I think that's a huge thing. Likewise, your energy and carbon are very directly correlated. So the minute you save energy in our world, you're saving your carbon burn as well.   Dan Seguin  10:59 Great segue to this next question, Terry. Wondering if you could expand on how data from HVAC systems improves energy management through automation, and predictive analysis that forecasts adjustments based on historical data to enhance and manage overall energy consumption.   Terry Young  11:22 So your, your eyes are gonna glaze over now. So just pause. Because I'm gonna get tactical, or another thing go on. And I enjoy this kind of thing to love. So it's like, and I'll try to put it down to two words, everybody can understand. But in a building, there, there's a bunch of relationships, so there's a big HVAC unit on the roof, and then there's a box that's down there in the ductwork kind of thing that opens and closes and stuff. And then there's a thermostat right there on the wall. So, basically, that's one relationship. Okay. So, basically, if you turn up, you go to 70 degrees, that means the little baffle in the VAV box opens a little bit and pushes enough air in so you're comfortable. Okay, now the fan needs to work at I don't know, whatever percentage that is. So, what happens is with the analytical data, and the analytics, it creates an efficiency within that system. So that's one relationship. Now, if you're in an office with 30 offices, there's 30 different relationships. So the software sits on top there, and it's like an umbrella, and understands in real time, all of these demands on the system. So if you have a 60 horsepower motor, and you have reheat coils, and you have a whole pile of systems working in conjunction and simultaneously with one another, what this software does, it goes, how can I minimize the the use of all of this system to maintain its comfort. So instead of run at a 60 horsepower, so 15 years ago, I turn on that motor, I got 60 horses or 30 horses, whatever it is full bore. And basically, I fill the system full a static pressure, and I just opened it ever so slightly, but I've run the entire system for my office, which is 200 square feet. So now with these new systems, I don't need to do that anymore. There's variable speed drives, which basically means it's like a gas pedal now, so I only press the gas, the amount of kilometers and the speed that I want. So that relationship from the thermostat that's on the wall, says I only need to go five kilometers an hour, which is five horsepower. So also my office next door, if they need five horsepower or five kilometers an hour, that might be five simultaneously. So they'll take that same sort of static pressure, that same temp air and dump it in his or her office as well. So you see how efficient this is throughout the entire system. So, and again, this is, in theory, after I explain it, it's so simple, but we weren't running our real estate like that 15 years ago. But when you do that, two things happen. One is I save a massive amount of energy- actually 3- two, I maintain really, really comfortable spaces and three, and this is the big one here, from a cap x perspective and if you're a finance person, you're looking at this stuff and you saying well, "I don't need to replace that motor anymore". And usually lifespan these motors are pretty defined; definite, right? So it's 17 years. Now I can push that out to 22 years or 27 years, that kind of deal. So it's good. It's good every which way but loose right.   Rebecca Schwartz  14:40 A short time ago, the federal government introduced new funding and new initiatives to help support the commercial sector. They promised $3 billion to establishing a net zero accelerator fund to help large emitters reduce their emissions. What are some of the highlights and what should clients know?   Terry Young  14:59 So, I'm not the guy to be talking to about this, really. But I mean, there's three criteria- three pillars, I suppose. There's one for, they call it decarbonisation. And so this is like, for large emitters, these are big manufacturing plants there. And there's a, there's new technology called carbon capturing as well. So it's big machines look like big dishwashers. Not really, but they're giant, and it takes the bad thing. And they actually can make that into either a brick or something that can be utilized in a cement factory, or whatever. So it takes carbon out of the system, which is good. The second pillar is it's clean technology and industrial transformation. And I think third one is a huge push for battery ecosystem. One of the big things we have here, we have really cool technology, but our batteries, and the battery technology has not kept up. And I say that there's huge advancements, but we're still not there. You know, you look at the cars, for instance, you know, the Tesla gets 600 or 700 kilometers out of a tank, in a perfect condition world. That's still not good enough for Canada. It might be okay for California, but where we have a geographic issue, we need 1000 or more out of one charge, right? So we need a lot of technology pushing out deeper. So I think that's where they're in the short term, this is where the candidate, most of that money is gonna go. And there's a there's actually there's five or six funds that you can actually apply for as well.   Dan Seguin  16:28 We've tackled some of the pros, what are some of the barriers to the adoption of smart building solutions and reducing emissions? Are the fears or concerns you've heard valid?   Terry Young  16:42 So yeah, I, I think the barriers is twofold. One is financial. And this has to be tied to a financial place somewhere. And if it's not tied to costs, it just won't happen. And it's, it's very expensive. But number two is you need a corporate champion, you need somebody at the table at the C suite to really understand what that means to the company to the world to whatever. And so ultimately, that's where the issue is right now. We got a lot of guys at the at the C suite are a little older, they're they got more gray hair or less hair depends which side of the table you're on. But you know, so what's important to me is not what was important to my son who's 22. And so what you're seeing is, you know, with the cost of everything going up supply chain issues, the cost of labor going crazy, all this kind of stuff- this is going to be very expensive. This also, from a carbon costing perspective, with our new- with our federal government plans implemented, you know, in the in the ready, I suppose, are getting more expensive every day, you better have a plan in place, or you're going to get hit really, really quickly. And so I think that some of the biggest barriers are, or fears are, they don't really understand it. So there's a C suite kind of need to change from a championship and again, the financial component of this stuff.   Dan Seguin  18:14 Okay, now, care to expand on some of the biggest opportunities for return on investment in smart building solutions that folks either haven't thought of, or even considered- is there anything you would recommend?   Terry Young  18:31 So, two really is two of the things are energy savings- and we talked about that full stop real quick and easy. Turn, turn the page. Number two is tenant retention. And this is from a financial place. So the better you run your building, the more efficient you run your building, you've got a better chance of attracting and keeping the tenant. So if you look at what our world is looking like now, where is the new office going to be right? So you need to make sure that your space is as good or is better than any other of your competitors. And one of the ways of doing that is to for sure, making your operating costs lower- decreasing your energy. So in our portfolio, in most portfolios, it's probably 25% of your operating costs. It's quite chunky. So you got a 30,000 square foot building, and it's 25% of your costs. It's a lot of money. So if you can shave a point or in our case, 20 points, it, you know, that client can actually push that money to someplace else. So it's a very, very good thing. Likewise, if you're running your buildings very, very well, people want to be there. And the productivity again, is up and thus they make their more money as well.   Rebecca Schwartz  19:44 So what about your building? What are some of the advanced building technologies that you've implemented in your properties? And how did you get buy in from decision makers?   Terry Young  19:53 So we've we've probably played with a lot. Data analytics, we've done with artificial intelligence, a lot of IoT devices we played with, you know, data points, it comes back down to how can we run a better building? It's best practice. And we're very much trying to be leaders, we're trying to be industry leaders, not just in Ottawa, but in the world, on how better you can run a piece of real estate. So we've tried pretty well, if it's out there, and we could afford it, we've played with it. What the problem is, it's very easy to implement new technology in to new real estate. Anybody can do that. What's difficult is when you have an aging piece of real estate be it 30 years old, in our world that aging, by the way. How do you implement and how do you overlay with the backbone and the front end of a new piece of technology? It's very costly, and very impacting of the actual building and its tenants, as well. So this is what we've done, we've actually started taking four a year, for instance, so we've actually digitized four per year. If there's seven years, and we had seven floors, that sometimes happens when the building can't necessarily afford it. So you know, we've probably tried everything that's out there are pretty close to in our in our repertoire, and some of the cool stuff. And I'll get back to the analytics. I mean, you know, we have one of our facilities a few years ago did the AI to take over. And the certain department would go for pints on a Thursday, and that whole department would shut down, the lighting would shut down the building, HVAC, the air conditioning would shut down. So the bosses would walk by and wonder what's going on with the building had taken over knowing that there's a repetition. So every Thursday, if they went for pints with the boys, the building would actually understand that and decrease the lighting areas and decreased energy. So it's very, very cool technology. Not necessarily for the guys, but it's, yeah, so there's I mean, lots of huge energy savings as well. So, lots of cool stuff.   Rebecca Schwartz  22:01 In terms of ability to implement these solutions. Is there enough of a skilled workforce ready and available? What's your experience been like on the operational side?   Terry Young  22:11 Yeah, so quick answer is no. We're really, that's a struggle just like it. It's a trade, it's a skill, it's a skill, you have to be half an IT guy, you have to be half an HVAC mechanic, you have to be part electrician. So they're not, you know, we have one, two on staff maybe, and they're about 10 years older than I am. So they're not going to be here forever. So and we're not being able to back stop that very well. Our universities and colleges certainly are putting out good tradespeople. But this is a very unique kind of niche market. So people usually get into this by mistake. And so it's very rare. So that being said is there are some really cool companies out there that we work with, you know, and I'll shout out to Modern Niagara are very, very, they're a contractor they work for, they have a team dedicated to this stuff specifically, which is awesome for us. So we just call when we have an issue, we don't have to need in house expertise. So some contractors are leading the edge in that space. So we don't necessarily need an expert on staff, we can call somebody.   Dan Seguin  23:24 Now, Terry, what piece of advice will you give to large commercial property owners, and those in large industries about their emission reduction target dates for, let's say, 2030, even 2040 and 2050?   Terry Young  23:39 So I'm not sure I'm the guy to give advice on this stuff. There's certainly companies and people out there, you know, a lot further along in their journey than we are but you know, you have to have a plan. And, you know, I was at a conference on Thursday of last week and a really smart guy. He was telling me a story about a blog he read, he said, if you're not at the table today in carbon reduction strategy, tomorrow, you will be on the menu. Okay, put that on a bumper sticker, because I did. But that's very, very intuitive and smart. So again, if you're not at the table today, when it comes to carbon, and energy reductions, you will be on the menu tomorrow. Get and know what you're burning. Know what carbon where you stand and where you want to go. It's going to be so expensive to do business tomorrow and the next day, you know, carbon price is going to be, you know, most of our buildings and this is the other issue. And I won't get into too deep but we got lots of government agencies here and bless their heart and I love them all. They're sucking and blowing. Right? So we have one side- we have the people given us a rebate to take electricity out and put gas units in that same year. I'm getting double the bill for burning gas and they want me to turn back to electricity. This is the same bunch of guys. Nobody's seeing from the same song book. So it's like, what do you do? These, also, these programs, when you put in an HVAC unit, it's good for 20 years. So you can't you can't just tomorrow turn around and spend 300 grand to change an HVAC unit, it doesn't work that way, right? So now we have to bear that carbon pricing, or whatever that is for a long, long time. So the government needs to really get on the same page, both provincially, federally and municipality wise locally, to really- let's actually get a plan together. And although you know, Mr. Trudeau may be quite aggressive to what he's trying to do, it's going to be very detrimental to business too, as well. And this is where we don't know the net effect. We in Ontario has the highest energy prices in North America per capita, there's no other place to have more. The cost of electricity here is more than anywhere in North America. So we have to compete for talent we have to compete for, for anybody- clients, operating costs, manufacturing facilities, etc, etc. When they look at Ontario, we're not as aggressive in that area. Now, are there other ways of doing it? Absolutely. You know, I think we really are doing our part. And I think we're batting well above our weight class, when it comes to carbon emissions, because we only, you know, we're this much in the in the world of what, you know, we impact. So I think we're way, way above our weight class, for sure.   Rebecca Schwartz  26:30 Ultimately, what do you hope these emission targets will achieve for companies and municipalities? Will they be required to innovate and plan for a sustainable future? And control costs?   Terry Young  26:41 Yeah, the world? The answer is yes, they, you know, these carbon targets, good, bad or ugly- we will have to bring those into our business model. They're going to be very expensive. So somewhere the cost has to sort of balance itself, right? And at the end of the day, it's my son and my son's son, you know, it's my grandkids that we're trying to help out here. And, you know, we've not necessarily done an okay job. I think there's many, many companies, and you know, it wasn't something that anybody thought of 30 years ago. My dad's generation, it wasn't, it wasn't there. It was, you know, it's climate change is no such thing kind of deal, right? And but it really is. It's real, the data is real, science is real. And we don't nip this and control it or try to mitigate it, we're going to be in a lot more trouble than we are. And again, it comes back down to that corporate champion that I was talking about earlier. We really need some corporate champions at the C suites to make this something important. Balancing finance, balancing cost. This is where the government comes in, you know, you can't put all of this on the backs of industry, it's going to be impossible. Industry will fail. It's financially not doable in some circumstances. So there's going to have to be a give and take; there's gonna have to be relationship, there's going to have to be "how can we get there together"? And it's going to be, it's not going to be easy, it really is not going to be easy.   Dan Seguin  28:19 Now, let's fast forward to post pandemic. What is your prediction for commercial real estate? Will people return to their office towers like before? Or has there been a shift? What's your prediction?   Terry Young  28:36 I think- I think there will be a back to the office thing. I don't know what it's going to look like, I'll actually I'll even I'll even put five bucks on it. That's how confident I am. It's the right thing for a human being to be, okay? There's a number of studies and again, you know, I'm quite well read up on this research and development of patents, for instance, patents are down a decrease. There's a reason for that, you know, when a human gets involved with another human, there's magic, there's chemistry, when you're down in your basement, that doesn't happen. It needs to be closed quarters, you know, and I give the analogy, if you play golf, when you actually golf with a person who's a lot better than you, you may be, say a 15 handicap and you're, you're playing with sixes, your game instantly goes up. So everybody's game just goes a little bit sharper, a little bit faster. That's where the magic happens. You know, and there's a term that they pegged, I think is social malnutrition, where people need or lack the social interaction. And we're social creatures, right? And I'll tell you the water cooler banter that you know that whole social going hockey every Thursday night with the boys, that is magic. And that's what happens. You know, if you look at a de-stress, and you look at the, you know, the emotional intelligence and understanding how your office is working and stuff, you know, in the past how you would deescalate really hard week, if you're not in the office, and you can't have these normal rules or normal things that you do, the stress seems to build, you know, and that's where that's where, you know, that's what scares me the most, I think, when it comes to tomorrow, and the next day, so I really think people will be back in the office, I think there might be a hybrid model, but I think it's going to be the exception, not the rule. So I think you're going to have, you know, two days, three days in out, whatever. And, you know, if you need a day or two to get your paperwork done, and get out of and get a bunch of work done, absolutely. But you're going to come back to the office, and you will want that. And I think companies and you know will require that as well, because that's where the productivity and that's where magic happens.   Rebecca Schwartz  31:00 All right. You mentioned that feeling of stress. Can you elaborate a little bit on what keeps you up at night? And what makes you nervous?   Terry Young  31:09 So, I mean, I sleep like a baby. So I don't- I'm not a big stressful fella. But I think if I were to say one thing is knowing, you know, the pressures that are on our people and the stresses, I mean, the mental health tally and toll this has taken is going to be a generation to really comprehend. And that, you know, if I would look at one thing, that's probably the biggest thing that I worry about, I suppose when it comes to, you know, this whole post pandemic thing, it's a toll. It's a toll on a lot a lot of people and I only wish that that wasn't the case. But and you can feel it in your workplace. It's not it's not a good thing.   Rebecca Schwartz  31:59 And what about things like cybersecurity? Has that been a top priority for the commercial real estate industry?   Terry Young  32:04 Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a big, big question for sure. And the answer is yes. Yes. And more. Yes. You know, because the more you know, we talked about smart buildings, we talked about IP, we talked about protocols and all of this smart technology, it speaks a language that language is on the internet. Likewise, when I said that describe what a smart building is, it's centrally controlled. How do you centrally control? It is centrally controlled by the on the internet, there's bad people, bad guys on the internet. So you know, most hits that have happened in modern day has either come usually comes from a building automation system back door somewhere. So we very much share on that space. There's a couple of really cool technologies out there local by the way, that that sort of they call it covalence is the type of cybersecurity and it understands the language and the pathways in which this data travels; very much analytical base as well and AI, and its local, local guy, local firm, really, really smart bunch of guys. And so they actually can take your building automation systems, and sort of give a level of protection that normally you wouldn't have. So we've created a bit of a lock and key process on how you enter and exit some of these networks and, yeah, so it's very, very top of mind. And it's every year. It's not when- it's not if it's when.   Dan Seguin  33:39 Okay, Terry, I know this isn't your first podcast rodeo. So, as a result, we came up with some new rapid fire questions. I hope you are ready, sir.   Terry Young  33:51 Not really,   Dan Seguin  33:52 Terry. What are you reading right now?   Terry Young  33:55 So this is funny. This is funny because it doesn't, I'm not a big reader, but I'm actually reading 21 Things That You May Not Know About the Indian Act. Funny enough, my son who's an avid reader on this the really good piece of literature and disturbing by the way it's a pretty good read. I'm about halfway through it's not it's not good. But anyway, it's good and bad. Whatever.   Dan Seguin  34:02 Now I'm looking forward to this answer. What would you name your boat if you had one? Do you have one?   Terry Young  34:28 "She'll do for now". Yeah, no, I'm a big boat person, buddy. I'm always able to boat and everybody’s got to put a date; every year you need extra, so to speak, so it's so my dad came up with this many years ago. Well she’ll do for now, boy and I'm from Newfoundland- so she'll do for now meaning that it's okay till I get my new one because the boat is like it's like it's not good because you got to 16 footer, you need 18. You got an 18, you need a 20. So yeah, she'll do for now.   Dan Seguin  35:03 Who is someone that you admire?   Terry Young  35:07 I just said him, my dad, he's a really, really good guy. Retired when he was 62 and went back to school and became a paramedic. And now, yeah, and now he's 74 and still active. Just one of those guys. He just loves life. And he, you know, I've never he's just the best human being that I know.   Dan Seguin  35:28 Now, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Terry Young  35:33 Yeah, I, I'm not a big magic fan. I'm not sure. I thought about this one. I really don't know.   Dan Seguin  35:42 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic?   Terry Young  35:47 So two things came to mind when this question came up, is, for me, the challenge isn't, I live in a cabin, by the way, and up on the water. And so this pandemic thing, I'm out in the bush, I'm an outdoorsy guy. So this pandemic, it meant nothing to me, like when it came to light, I was very fortunate to work for an amazing company, we didn't have to lay anybody off. So we're able to work from home. And yeah, so my world, it started off in the bush anyway. So I didn't, I'm not a big in the city person. So, you know, that didn't affect me, but come back to the mental health of our folks, you know that- the relationship stresses that I see the, you know, how can we, as a team make our company better? So if you look at the challenge here is this cause the big problem? And now how can we make it better? How can we create plans? How can we put in place you know, in our company, we're developing a very, a wellness strategy, it's called Care Plan Meets. And it's based on this new world. So we had, what I consider, a pretty good plan before, now we're making it better. And because of the new changing circumstances, you know, everybody, you know, their benefits are here, the company has been like this for 35 years, it's all the same, well, the world has changed. And the view as a company, or as the leader that runs a company, if you don't understand that what you had yesterday is not good for today, you're going to lose people you're going to there's going to be a shift. And you're not only going to lose people to other companies, you're gonna lose people to other issues. So we're really trying aggressively to put a plan in place, but that doesn't happen.   Dan Seguin  37:33 Okay, we've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie? Or show?   Terry Young  37:41 So, my- I don't know what this says about me. But my favorite movies Talladega Nights, Will Ferrell. That movie ever boy best movie ever. Shake and Bake. Yeah.   Dan Seguin  37:53 And lastly, Terry, what is exciting you about your industry right now?   Terry Young  37:59 So, I think, it's a great question. The industry, what's exciting me is this new generation of people we got coming up. And it's, and I'm talking about my son's generation, he's 25. Actually he's 23 going on 24. He just got his first job. And he started to look at where he wanted to work, not where, what, who would accept him. But so he started looking at what is the company's culture, what is the company's sustainability practices, etc, etc. Now, he has a degree in International Business. He speaks three languages- this kid is, I mean, I'm partial too but we also have here, three or four of those young people who are articulate, they're extremely smart, they have a work ethic, they have balance, everything that I, you know, there's things that I sort of, if I wish I could have had back then. So I think there's a generation of young people that are brilliant. And that's what really, I see as exciting. You know, we were at a conference with Tony, last week, we had two young, younger staff members there. And, and I was proud to sit in the middle of them, that, you know, just they got up and they they walk the room, they can work the room. And they're passionate about sustainability. They're passionate about business. And then they also have this balance that we may as my generation, we may have went a little bit further on the one side, so they don't have that balance problem. So they know what's important and their families, they know how to do a good job. And you know, you hear them all the, you know, generations coming up. It's not it's not good. You've heard all these old timers and stuff. That's, that's true for every generation. There are bad apples everywhere. But I'll tell you, these young people that we got coming up, there's there's there's a really good vibe out there. And I'm really excited to see what they're going to do what the world is going to be looked like. So we look at and we can sum up here with the carbon sustainability and stuff, it's going to take that generation, that that's important to them. So when my son or your son gets at that C suite level, he's going to be his wallets already full. He knows exactly what and how he's going to run that company to make sure that for his kids sustainability and carbon and all of this stuff, that's the only saving grace, they're going to be able to reverse some of the damage that we've done, because that's how they operate. So that's what makes me excited about the industry. You know, the technology is, is great. And I mean, we can play with that, but, and it comes down to good people running the technology without the good people, that technology is relatively useless to a point, right? So that's what I'm excited about.   Rebecca Schwartz  40:46 Well, Terry, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?   Terry Young  40:56 So krpproperties.com. For sure, reach out and there's a there's an info page, and there's a connect page slot there on the website. Yeah, it's pretty, pretty simple stuff.   Dan Seguin  41:08 Again, my friend, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.   Terry Young  41:12 Hey, I did. Thank you very much, guys. Appreciate it. Did you know buildings as a whole make up for 40% of global energy consumption? When you consider the majority of commercial buildings are more than 30 years old, it’s clear energy-efficient retrofits and upgrades are needed to help bring these buildings into the 21st century. Terry Young, Vice President of Operations at KRP Properties, joins this episode of thinkenergy to talk about the planning needed to future-proof commercial buildings to help reach net zero targets and reduce their carbon footprint.   Related links https://www.linkedin.com/in/terry-young-69652325/ https://krpproperties.com/about/the-team/   --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts To subscribe using Spotify To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube Check out our cool pics on Instagram More to learn on Facebook Transcript: Dan Seguin  41:15 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

In part one of our conversation about microgrids, we spoke with Charles Berndt, Manager of Grid Technology with Hydro Ottawa, about how these systems can help Canada reach its net zero goals. Charles joins us again for part two, this time focusing on how we can meet the demand for energy while maintaining safety and security—all in the name of decarbonizing our future.   Related links LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charles-berndt-84427b2/   --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram More to learn on Facebook Keep up with the Tweets Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone! Welcome back. We're back today with Charles Berndt, Manager of Grid Technology at Hydro Ottawa to talk about micro grids on part two of our show. Last time, Charles went in depth about the benefits of micro grids and how they operate while connected to the electricity grid, but that they can also operate on their own using local energy generation in times of power outages caused by storms or grid failure. Today, he's going to discuss distributed energy resources, and how they are connected to the micro grid.   Rebecca Schwartz  01:08 Now more than ever, we know people care about the environment, climate change and sustainability, and are increasingly interested in things like renewable generation and electrification. All of that leads us to creating a smarter electricity grid.   Dan Seguin  01:23 Renewable energy generation is expected to play a major role in the further decarbonisation of Canada's electricity system, while relying on nature to assist us in generating cleaner electricity. Sometimes, it's not always the most reliable.   Rebecca Schwartz  01:42 As we know, Mother Nature is pretty fickle. So, that's where distributed energy resources like energy storage and distributed generation come into play.   Dan Seguin  01:52 Here's today's big question. While the time has come to decarbonize our grid even further with alternative energy sources, how can we ensure we can meet the growing demand for energy while also maintaining safety and security?   Rebecca Schwartz  02:09 Charles, it's nice to have you back.   Dan Seguin  02:11 Okay, Charles, let's dive into part two. What sets distributed energy resources, better known as DERs? Apart from micro grids? Both can generate or store energy and manage consumption depending on type, right? Can you unpack this for listeners?   Charles Berndt  02:30 Yeah, I've always considered DERs kind of the individual parts of a micro grid, right? The micro grid is a holistic thing and an area where it has both generation and storage and consumption. Whereas DERs are those individual pieces that could be solar, it could be battery storage, it could be you know, it could be a hot water tank, you know, you can think of that as a distributed energy resource and electric vehicle battery, solar on the roof, any of those could be could be DERs, and they could be a part of a micro grid. But but not a micro grid on its own. If that, if that makes sense.   Rebecca Schwartz  03:10 Okay, so what's driving the growth around distributed energy resources?   Charles Berndt  03:14 I think you're seeing kind of two big drivers. I mean, the first is obviously economics of the storage and generation we're seeing solar and battery storage getting cheaper every year, it's falling quite rapidly. And it's a significant reduction in costs per kilowatt hour, every year. And they're getting better. And the second one, I would say is that drive towards lower carbon, I think, you know, customers are looking to reduce their carbon footprint, and they're starting to get to the point where they're willing to spend their own money to do that. So you have that double effect, the technology is getting better and cheaper, and then more customers are willing to invest and then it kind of gets that momentum. So I think it's it's very much the two things hand in hand.   Dan Seguin  04:02 Okay. Now, Charles, talk to me about the rise of local energy. Is there a need for greater education to help customers understand that they can shift from being a consumer that's consuming energy to a prosumer- producing, even selling electricity back to the grid?   Charles Berndt  04:22 Yeah, I'd say yes, but not in the way you might expect. I think I've found customers to be fairly well informed that the technology and how it works, they seem, you know, they seem to know exactly what the options are available. Ontario in specific has had those programs for for quite a few years and people are getting, getting a firm understanding. They're reading that in the news and they understand it quite well, actually. And so I find, excuse me, that the education support where it's needed is more around the economic choices available to them. Um, what is the business case and the return on that investment, if they were to make that leap? And unfortunately, that answer is very local. You know that every jurisdiction, every province, every territory, every country has a different economic model for how they sell and compensate electricity. And so there's no universal answer for everyone, it really, it really is a localized answer. And that's, I think, where you know, where the education or the support is needed is how to build that, build that in for people to help them understand, you know, how a homeowner or a business owner can make that choice and where the economics play out, and they can make the choice and empower them to make the choice that they want to.   Dan Seguin  05:43 Okay, here's a follow up question. What's been the biggest barrier or challenge for more adoption? What's needed to overcome them?   Charles Berndt  05:53 I'm gonna say economics again. And I know it's, it may be boring, but I've met, like I said, I've met a lot of passionate customers who want to adopt, but the economic case is not there. So I think, you know, there's, there's no silver bullet here. We've seen incentives have an impact in the past, but then I think we can all recognize that the solution to the problem needs to be a little bit more holistic and needs to be sustainable for all the customers. So I think we're seeing, you know, market reform is what's needed and we're starting to embark, Ontario is  embarking on that journey, and I'm happy to see it but yeah, not, not this attempted silver bullet here for that one specific problem. It needs that big system view and make sure that we're making the appropriate choices.   Rebecca Schwartz  06:40 We've touched on the what of micro grids, what about the ‘how’, how does it work connecting DERS and micro grids to the grid? Will utilities be required to digitally retrofit their aging infrastructure to make the grid more resilient and reliable in the face of increasing climate stress, rising electricity demand, and essentially greater overall dependence on electricity?   Charles Berndt  07:05 The short answer is yes. All of the above, really. You know, as I mentioned, last time, the need to become more interactive with our customers as they, as they become increasingly part of that generation mix as they adopt distributed energy resources, we need to have more intelligence at the edge of our system. So not just looking at the substation and sending electricity down the wire, so to speak, but we need to manage the assets and the grid differently. This different type of management will help our planning and investment programs. And to do this, we need to make significant investment in our systems and how we collect data, how we manage data, how we use that data to make choices and operating the system, both for sunny weather and during major storms or events. And, you know, that's not to say we won't have to invest in the traditional sense, we're still going to need more wires, we're still going to need substations because we're a growing Ottawa is a growing community and electric vehicles, for example and electrification of heating and cooling brings, brings a lot of load. And so you've got to continually balance, you know, how do we do the non wires and incentivize those, but then also make sure that we have that foundation in place? So will it require us to digitally retrofit? Absolutely. It's all going to be a technology solution primarily.   Dan Seguin  08:33 That's great. Thanks, Charles. Now, are there concerns about unpredictability of certain renewable energy resources and how that might impact the electricity grid and operations of micro grids? How do you mitigate that?   Charles Berndt  08:48 I mean, it can be a concern. And you can mitigate that in kind of two ways. So, for the energy, we need to store it somehow. And that can be local, by putting a little battery next to your generation or some other type of storage, but then also, you can leverage the grid for that storage, you know, we can, we can use things like large hydroelectric generator systems in the far north to be a large grid size battery. So that's one way to do it. And the other way is to mix, you know, it's not all solar, it's not all wind, it's not all hydroelectric. It's really the combination of many and making sure- I keep coming back to this because I'm, you know, I really believe in looking at a systems approach; a holistic approach look at what mixing those look like where the sun goes down, the wind picks up and overnight, the river keeps flowing. So that's, you know, that's how you do it, is you make sure that you're not over incentivizing over investing in one thing over the other. It's truly a mix.   Rebecca Schwartz  09:53 So, Charles, exactly how important is it for distributed energy resources, both in addressing climate change and energy security challenges? Can DERs help shield communities against the impact of extreme weather events, which are becoming more and more frequent?   Charles Berndt  10:10 In time, absolutely. I know, short term you can, you can improve resiliency with that local storage. You can potentially put together a micro grid on a campus or other critical location. But in the longer term, you obviously can, can lower the impact on the environment through that energy switching electrification, bringing more renewables into the mix means less carbon impact, and less carbon is always a, it's always a good thing. And it's going to, you know, it's not going to solve climate, the climate crisis on its own, but it's going to, it's going to help and it's going to reduce the problem. And it's the way to go.   Dan Seguin  10:47 Now, I'd love to hear your thoughts on where energy storage, and the battery in electric vehicles fits into this equation. As the majority of EV charging demand is expected to come from home charging.   Charles Berndt  11:02 Yeah, I think this is our probably our biggest opportunity in the short term. As transportation gets electrified, you know, how we integrate how we manage and optimize that load can have a massive benefit to everyone, the grid and our customers. Being able to manage that charging and being able to do that signaling, that dynamic conversation with the customer and their technology. And to help manage it so that it's, it's done at the right time, it's done at the economic time for them and, and they have the flexibility, but we empower, empower them to make the choice that makes sense for them economically, and then, and then try and use those signals also to help manage our system as that load grows. For that future vision of where electric vehicles could play, I admittedly was a huge doubter of that vehicle to grid technology, I, you know, I couldn't see a customer being willing to do that. But, you know, I look at advertisements for electric vehicles now. And you see that they're, they're really touting that feature of being able to have that emergency backup power, that, that local power. And so now, once the customer is comfortable with withdrawing that energy out of the battery, you know, I'm sure it's a small, it's a small leap to use that or being willing to use it in support of the grid. And then there's an economic, you know, solution there to figure out but, you know, I don't see it as as a such a red line, as I did before, when, you know, people were really worried about warranties on batteries. You know, that was a huge conversation early on in EVs, I'm hearing much, much less of that. And even range anxiety, you're hearing much, much less of that people, people are getting comfortable with these things and realizing their whole value.   Rebecca Schwartz  12:51 From my knowledge, distributed energy resources are somewhat invisible and can't be controlled by grid operators, correct? This means that it's difficult to integrate them into the overall operation of the grid. Are there any smart digital solutions in the future that could enable DER owners to monitor and manage the resources in real time? And could this help grid operators more closely monitor and influence DER owners?   Charles Berndt  13:18 Yeah, I think I think your right on both. Right now, it is pretty passive. We are, we have knowledge of certain size of generators from the larger generators we connect to and, and that the size of generator that we connect to with with the technology to make sure that we know what's going on- that's getting smaller every year, if that makes sense. We're now asking, you know, the smaller generators to give us insight and to connect to us on a communications platform. But going forward, it's you know, in order to really incentivize that huge adoption of DERs, we need that platform, we have to have that platform. And we have to evolve and adapt as a utility. So that our control room and our engineers and our staff and our customer service, folks, everybody has that platform to understand what's going on what's changing in the grid, and how do we manage it day to day and the more DERs we get, the more critical it becomes that we have that visibility and interaction with our customers. So we've been investing, you know, over the last few years, and we have a rather significant roadmap ahead of us. Over the next five years, we're going to be investing significantly in our platforms, not only our traditional control and outage management systems that we've always had, making sure those are modern, but then also adding those analytics modules on top. We've, we've started to add, you know, people with with a data science background to our utility, we're hiring different people. We're pulling in people from technology, from, you know, from the high tech sector, and we're leveraging modern ways of managing and manipulating data to understand insight and where is it going? Where is it going to be today? How do we optimize? And so, it's going to help us immensely in managing that going forward.   Dan Seguin  15:12 Now, Charles, we touched a bit on this earlier, but energy from the wind and sun is intermittent, and often unpredictable. Critics point to this as the fatal flaw of renewable energy and the reason electricity prices rose in places aggressively adopting it. Is this true?   Charles Berndt  15:31 Not really, I mean, like I said before, there's no silver bullet here. So, if we incentivize or over incentivize one thing over another, then yeah, you're gonna have an impact on cost, there's no doubt about that. But, you need to look at the big picture. And I'm gonna get back to this holistic vision of of the system, because, you know, if you look at what gains when we reduce carbon, and I'll point to an example, it's a bit of a touchy example, in Ontario, but the elimination of the coal fired generation in Ontario. You know, leaving the politics aside, there was a significant improvement in the air quality of the Greater Toronto Area, so that leads to better health outcomes. That leads to better, you know, better quality of living for the residents. Lower overall health care costs. So, somewhere that was, you know, that was not maybe not fully recouped. But, that has an impact on everyone's life, whether they're, they're personally paying the electric bill or not. So, it's that type of broader view that needs to be taken here. And we can debate the, you know, the implementation of it, and the, you know, whether it's a carbon tax or, you know, offsetting generation or incentivizing a different type of generation, I, you know, that's, I think, besides the point, I think, I think we can all, if we all just take a step back and recognize the holistic improvements to everything, then it's very much worth it.   Rebecca Schwartz  16:59 All right, sorry, not sorry, Charles, but I'm going to put you on the spot here. Cann microgrids, and DERs power our transition to net zero by 2050.   Charles Berndt  17:09 Absolutely. Without a doubt. Shortest answer I'm gonna have. Absolutely. There's no, I have no doubt. The technology is there. The software is there, you just, we just need to do it. And we just need to, you know, change, change our thinking and change our approach and be willing to question how we do it and challenge ourselves to do it better.   Dan Seguin  17:30 Okay, Charles, we've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Once again, I'd love if we could end with a few rapid fire questions. Are you ready?   Charles Berndt  17:42 I'm ready. I'm ready.   Dan Seguin  17:43 Now, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've ever witnessed?   Charles Berndt  17:51 I've got a whimsical answer for this one. I used to work at a place where we used a lot of liquid nitrogen. So, it's kind of weird, but we just had a lot of it on hand. And one lunchtime, we were having an employee celebration, and somebody came in with a bunch of cream and some, some vanilla extract and like a drill with one of those paint stirrers and a big pot. And I was like, "what are we doing with this"? Like, "what is this for"? And the director of engineering took a big cup of liquid nitrogen and put all the cream and the sugar and everything in a pot with a drill, stirring it like a can of paint and poured the nitrogen in. And literally 30 seconds later, we were all eating ice cream. And it was like, such a simple and obvious thing. I don't know why I still think of it to this day. It was like, it only took three minutes and we were all eating, all 70 of us were eating delicious, fresh ice cream. So yeah, it's kind of a ridiculous answer. But it was magic. I don't understand, it was magic.   Dan Seguin  18:45 That's so cool, Charles. Now, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic?   Charles Berndt  18:52 So, I manage a few people, and for me, I'm a very personally interactive person, I'm very social, I thrive on social interaction. And, so it's been a little isolating, and I've had to, you know, change how I do things, how I interact with a group of people, co-workers and the team that I work with. And, so it's been a growth for me, but, you know, I have not had significant impacts on the pandemic. I've been personally quite lucky. So if that's the biggest thing I have to complain about, then I consider myself lucky. The benefit has been I've you know, spent so much time with my very young family and it's been it's been good that way. And they're young enough that I don't have to teach them anything, you know, according to a curriculum. I'm lucky that way. I'm not I'm not there yet.   Dan Seguin  19:42 Okay, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately, right? What's your favorite movie or show?   Charles Berndt  19:52 Right now, it's it's Drive to Survive. I'm a huge Formula One fan. For those who can't see me I'm actually wearing a Formula One shirt and yeah, it's, it's awesome for me I get to see a show that's my favorite sport. So that's, yeah, it's great.   Rebecca Schwartz  20:08 Well, Charles, thanks again for joining us today. We hope you had a good time.   Charles Berndt  20:12 I did. Thank you so much for having me again.   Dan Seguin  20:15 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

The term microgrid might make them sound small, but these systems could hold a big key to Canada’s low-carbon future. Microgrids are made up of energy users, distributed energy resources, and advanced controllers, all working together to form an energy grid for both renewable and non-renewable generators. They also have the potential to adopt cleaner technologies, which in turn could improve the way the utility industry is managed and operated. Charles Berndt, Manager of Grid Technology at Hydro Ottawa, joins Dan and Rebecca for a conversation on what microgrids are and how they can help Canada reach its net zero goals.   Related links LinkedIn --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts To subscribe using Spotify To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on Instagram More to Learn on Facebook Keep up with our Tweets  Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone. Welcome back. The electricity grid was built to deliver electricity to homes and businesses a little more than a century ago. It's hard to imagine with our obsession and dependency on technology today, how it really wasn't that long ago, we lived without electricity.   Rebecca Schwartz  00:51 The electricity grid is basically a large machine. Think of it almost as the world's largest machine, but built for the outdated 20th century power systems, which are very simple and flowing only in one direction. As we know, though, machines are complex, and they need things like maintenance, replacements, investments, and of course, innovation and upgrades.   Dan Seguin  01:14 Well, this large machine is already getting the biggest upgrade in history. So it can communicate with our homes, businesses, smartphones, our cars and watches. More than any time in history, people want to connect and interact with the grid. That would have been unimaginable 100 years ago.   Rebecca Schwartz  01:39 It's definitely an exciting time to be in our industry. There's lots of new incentives being introduced by our government to support things like energy management, cleaner tech, electric vehicles, and smart grid projects.   Dan Seguin  01:50 Yes, it was just in March 2022, the Government of Canada released its climate target of cutting emissions by 40% below 2005 levels by 2030. The plan includes $9.1 billion in new investments to cut pollution and accelerate the path to net zero by 2050. It also outlines funding to make it easier for Canadians to switch to electric vehicles, make Canada's electricity grid even cleaner, help industries adopt cleaner tech, empower communities to take climate action, embrace the power of nature to fight climate change, and reduce oil and gas emissions, amongst others.   Rebecca Schwartz  02:39 So Dan, let's talk about a relatively unknown technology that I'm told can play a large part in helping along some of these initiatives. They're called micro grids. Micro grids, as defined by the Conference Board of Canada are systems of interconnected energy users, distributed energy resources, and advanced controllers that form local electricity grids. These energy resources include renewable and non renewable generators, and increasingly battery energy storage systems. Which due to their potential for adapting cleaner technologies, micro grids are playing a pretty important role in contributing to our transition for that low carbon future.   Dan Seguin  03:21 So, here's today's big question. Are micro grids the answer to a faster path to net zero and Canada's clean energy future? Our guest today is Charles Berndt, the manager of grid technology here at Hydro Ottawa. Charles, welcome to the show and to part one of our discussion on all things micro grids. Charles, can you start by telling us a bit about yourself and your role at Hydro Ottawa as a manager of grid technology?   Charles Berndt  03:56 Yeah, loving husband, father of two young, wonderful boys, engineer, foodie, and complete energy geek. Yeah, my day job, Manager of Grid Technology; I look after technology that's used to help us control our grid. So, our system operations staff, any platform they use to to monitor and understand what's going on out in the grids, whether it's, you know, managing devices or looking at outages. That's what what my team does. And we also look at new and emerging technologies. I spend a lot of my time looking at new ventures and looking at, you know, how can we apply our systems and technology to different problems and how we can improve upon those platforms?   Rebecca Schwartz  04:41 In what instances or applications can micro grids be applied? Is there a minimum or maximum micro grid size?   Charles Berndt  04:49 I wouldn't say there's a minimum or maximum per se, I would say it has to be economically feasible, obviously, and it has to solve the problem you're out to solve. So, for the most part, I think you'll see larger institutions, larger campuses that start to look at this technology. At least that's what we're seeing now. But I wouldn't say that there's there's hard and fast rules as to how big it is, or how small it can be. But definitely, you know, the economics are gonna play into that.   Rebecca Schwartz  05:19 Okay, follow up for you, Charles, what is the return on investment for a microgrid? And what are some of the financial, operational, and environmental benefits?   Charles Berndt  05:28 I think it's, you know, the ROI question is obviously, the biggest one, and it's dependent on how you take a view upon the whole problem, and it really needs to depend on the larger view of things. So you're not looking purely at the cost of electricity. You need to look at those other aspects. Like reliability, you know, what does that reliability mean to your particular business or to your community, and if you have critical needs, or you have carbon objectives, or you want to get off of certain carbon sources, and then you can really make it work. But yeah, there, it's not on a pure electricity cost basis, so you're not going to compete with the grid. But the broader you look, the more holistic view you take it, the more it's gonna make sense.   Rebecca Schwartz  06:14 Okay, last follow up along this line of questioning, how long do microgrids last? And does it depend on how they're fueled?   Charles Berndt  06:22 You know, it depends on how much you're willing to spend, I guess, you know, your storage, your generation, your consumption, they all have to match up. And if they match up perfectly, if you're able to make storage, you know, have enough storage or have enough generation to make it work, then you could stay islanded indefinitely. But definitely, it's the economics of the situation and what your, what your objectives are, then you can make it as long lasting or as brief as you need it to be.   Dan Seguin  06:50 Now, Charles, what are the components of a successful micro grid project? What needs to come together?   Charles Berndt  06:58 It's those, it's those three things, it's the generation, the storage and the consumption need to be kind of imbalanced, in total, so you need to work together. And to do that you need technology. Technology is the basic, biggest aspect. Some people say the, the smart grid problem is a software problem. And they're, they're actually right. You just need to, to have the sources and think of that energy balance out and need to manage dynamically where you're, where you're taking the energy from, where you're putting it, and how you're managing those customers' expectations. So we you know, we kind of take it for granted today that we're connected to this unending source of electricity, this grid, right, but, you know, the closer you get to that, you need to have that more dynamic and technology that manages that.   Dan Seguin  07:50 Okay, now, in your opinion, who are the ideal customers to adopt this technology? Water treatment plants, hospitals, universities, large manufacturers?   Charles Berndt  08:02 I think, I think definitely the campus, the campus style approach is, is the ones who are looking at it now. We're starting to see, traditionally cogeneration projects are starting to expand. So those campuses that need to use, or hospitals or other major institutions that needs that already have significant needs for backup or other energy generation requirements. They're the ones that are starting to look at this. And I think those are the ideal, the ideal candidates to look at this technology.   Rebecca Schwartz  08:33 Can you give us some good examples of a micro grid project here in Ottawa, or elsewhere that really showcases the potential?   Charles Berndt  08:40 We're starting to see the educational campuses, they're really looking into that. I kind of mentioned earlier that those who have cogeneration, we're seeing both actually all three, or three of the three of the big ones, Carleton, U Ottawa, and Algonquin have some form of cogeneration and U Ottawa I know is looking at a micro grid for part of their campus. We're seeing a lot of district thermal starting to happen, a lot of a lot of investment in that front. So when you start looking at energy holistically, those are the ones who can really start to think about wow, if I take a broader look, use all the energy sources, all of the energy uses then those are the ones who could benefit from it. We also ran a project here at Hydro Ottawa, a technology project to look at how could we develop technology to make our customers more grid interactive, and it's those types of technologies that would help in the creation and management of a micro grid.   Dan Seguin  09:47 Charles, micro grids use renewable and non renewable energy sources. Correct? Can you expand on what that means?   Charles Berndt  09:57 Yeah, you can use traditional fossil fuel generation. Fossil fuel sources like natural gas, and again, coming back to that cogeneration that was the first step in the direction of micro grids that many, many institutions have taken. But also, you know, with storage, and solar and wind, these, these things are getting cheaper and more commoditized, especially on storage that the dollar per per kilowatt hour store is, is dropping significantly, and solar is dropping significantly. And so it's, you know, we're starting to see the economics start to make sense where you look at not just the traditional natural gas fired generation, but you're looking at both solar and natural gas.   Dan Seguin  10:45 Now, wondering if you can expand on what is a hybrid micro grid system?   Charles Berndt  10:53 It's all of the above scenario, right? I mean, you're looking at, you're looking at not only just generation in the traditional sense of burning natural gas, but you can you can get wind, you can get solar, and then you can be you can be grid connected, and you can think of the grid as a potential generation source or some some other source of energy that you can balance with. And, I know, that's almost contradictory, having a micro grid, grid tied, but you know, it could be seen as the best of both worlds where you're just out to solve the problem that you have in the most economical and technological way. That's feasible, you know, it's not a, it's never a purist game. It's about it's about solving what you need to solve for. And don't, you know, don't paint yourself into a corner. It doesn't make sense.   Rebecca Schwartz  11:42 Much like small modular nuclear reactors, are there applications whereby micro grids could be used in remote communities in Canada? And what are some of the environmental benefits for implementing micro grids in these areas?   Charles Berndt  11:56 You know, I  think traditionally, the remote communities, small communities have been, you know, heavily, heavily reliant on that, on carbon based fuels like, so diesel generation, bunker oil generation, like really the old, old school type of heavy carbon intense generation sources. And they're the ideal, the ideal candidates for this type of technology, not only, you know, in the, in the ideal sense of getting them completely off carbon and getting them on to solar and wind, or even new technology, like small modular reactor technology, but even optimizing how you're burning the carbon, you know, with storage of carbon plus storage, I know it's, you know, some might see it as an unnecessary middle step, but, you know, operating any generation source in its, in its ideal efficiency window, could could see savings and can see efficiency gains. And that, you know, that, in turn, will reduce carbon emissions significantly.   Dan Seguin  13:01 That's great, Charles. Now, wondering if you could help us better understand why utility partnerships are so important to micro grid projects?   Charles Berndt  13:12 I mean, I'm gonna speak selfishly a little bit. You know, the utilities are your ideal partner. We've got, we've got a broad selection of very strong, technical individuals, but also people who, who have been focused on this problem for many years. And, and I, you know, I think the first, the first blush that a customer might look at it and say, "well, how does it make sense, I'm trying to get disconnected from the utility and the micro grid sense", but in actuality, you know, the technology that could be used here, benefits the utility and the customer could benefit by being connected to the utility. So, a partnership can make it economical, can make it feasible, and, you know, we have, we have the ability to to help you access government funding for, you know, climate change, but also for technology development. So, I think the utility is an ideal candidate to partner with. We have that we have that strength and those abilities and we're always willing to help.   Rebecca Schwartz  14:15 Can microgrids improve local management of power supply and demand and by ricochet defer costly investments by utilities and new power generation?   Charles Berndt  14:24 Absolutely. I mean, without a doubt, it could drastically improve our ability to manage load and to target our investment in a more efficient way. So today, we're designing you know, it's our design is driven by the worst case scenario. What could the customer consume? What could, in a worst case, does all of our customers need? And so you see things that, you know, we saw it in the broader Ontario context with the natural gas peaking plants, you know, they spend most of their time just just sitting around but waiting for that, you know, that four or five or six days a year where they need, they're desperately needed and they get spooled up and they use carbon and they cost a lot of money to maintain and operate. But with the technology that underpins these micro grids, you can, you can use it to not only create the micro grid and manage the micro grid, but you can also use it to change the relationship that your customer has with the utility or the micro grid has with its, you know, its host utility or partner utility. And being able to dynamically manage the load and sources and help to curtail those worst case scenarios where, where it allows the utility to say, "okay, I don't have to worry about this one day in 365, I can worry about all the other 364 days, and I can optimize for economics or carbon across the year and not just always worry about that that worst case scenario".   Dan Seguin  15:52 Charles, what role could microgrids have in accelerating the path to Canada's net zero targets? Where do you see their biggest potential?   Charles Berndt  16:04 I see it, you know, as a technology person, obviously, I look first to the technology and the development of that technology. And it comes back to that worst case scenario where, if we start deploying the technology to manage consumption, or to help the customer have that two way relationship with the utility, and not just for generation, you know, the customer wants to generate solar electricity, but having that dynamic conversation where we're sending each other signals of what we need, then that could help. You can just target- what do you want to change? Do you want to change the economics? Well, then you can set your set your signaling, on economics, if you want to manage carbon, well then just say, hey, carbon intensive time, why don't you, if you're interested in reducing carbon, then we can reduce your consumption or move to your stored electricity and you can you can target any problem that you want to solve. And one of the big ones could be carbon.   Dan Seguin  17:02 Okay. Now, the Government of Canada recently announced $9.1 billion in new investments to cut pollution. Do you see opportunities in those initiatives for microgrids? If so, which?   Charles Berndt  17:16 I mean, absolutely, you know, those technologies that would be leveraged to run a micro grid, again, could be used to manage that carbon. And so you could, you could work with technology development, you could work with deployment of that technology, and they'll all be eligible for for this government funding to help, you know, you can just say, look, how you manage the carbon with this technology will definitely be a significant driver for an attractor, for any government agency wanting to invest in carbon reduction, and it has the benefits of increasing reliability and making everything much more efficient.   Rebecca Schwartz  17:56 Okay, Charles, thank you for joining us today. But, you'll be back here for part two of our discussion on micro grids where you'll also talk about distributed energy resources, among other related topics.   Charles Berndt  18:07 I can't wait.   Dan Seguin  18:08 Now, it's that time again, Charles, let's end on a few rapid fire questions. Are you ready to go sir?   Charles Berndt  18:18 Shoot!   Dan Seguin  18:18 Okay. What are you reading right now?   Charles Berndt  18:21 This is embarrassing, but I'm reading The Three Musketeers by Alexander Dumas. I just finished the Count of Monte Cristo in the fall. And I was like, blown away. It was so good. So I had to go to the next one. So it's, it's the Three Musketeers. Yeah.   Dan Seguin  18:39 Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one?   Charles Berndt  18:44 I don't have one. But obviously, you're talking to an engineering and a geek. So, obviously, enterprise is the only answer to this question.   Dan Seguin  18:53 Charles, who is someone that you admire?   Charles Berndt  18:57 I'm gonna say my wife on this one. Yeah, she's, she's brilliant. She's stronger than me. She's, wonderful and patient and intelligent. And, ya, no, I, I admire her so much.   Dan Seguin  19:09 And lastly, mon amis, what is exciting you about our industry right now.   Charles Berndt  19:16 Change. Change. It's getting faster. People are more interested in it's the carbon emission conversation, the environmental efficiency, everything. Electrification of transportation; it's all converging on the utility industry. And the utility industry is poised for not only regulatory change, but technology change, and we're starting to see that with the people who are coming to work for us who we're attracting. We're seeing that in the in the level of dialogue that's happening out in the world, people are talking about us more, and that brings pressure, but I think it's exciting. And I'm really, really excited about the future.   Rebecca Schwartz  19:59 Well, Charles, we'll talk to you again on our next episode. If our listeners want to learn more about you, how can I connect?   Charles Berndt  20:05 The emails always there. I'm on LinkedIn. Yeah, yeah. Look me up.   Dan Seguin  20:10 Again, Charles, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun and that you'll come back.   Charles Berndt  20:15 Yeah, thank you very much for having me.   Dan Seguin  20:17 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

According to a survey conducted by Electricity Human Resources Canada, 48% of employees believe they increased productivity when working remotely. With that in mind, it’s no surprise to see many industries adopting a hybrid model where employees have flexibility around where they work—and why prospective employees are looking beyond salary when determining what’s important to them in a job. Michelle Branigan, CEO of Electricity Human Resources Canada, joins us to discuss how remote working will affect the energy sector’s workplace and workforce future.    Related links LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-branigan-6055bb21/ https://electricityhr.ca/ https://electricityhr.ca/workplace-solutions/diversity-inclusion/illuminate-opportunity/illuminate-opportunity-endnotes/ --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co-host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back, has COVID-19 forever changed the way we think, perform and show up for work? There's been a huge workplace culture shift with more employees working remotely. Commuting has been possible for many years. But I think it's fair to say that there was reluctance on the part of many employers to implement digital solutions, such as video conferencing, digital sharing tools, and expansion of cloud based computing to facilitate the shift away from the office. Rebecca, did you know that, according to McKinsey and Company, COVID-19 accelerated three trends that may well last after the pandemic is over?   Rebecca Schwartz  01:21 Yeah. So the first and probably the most talked about trend is the hybrid remote work. Now, there's about 20 to 25% of computer based workers who could foreseeably work from home something like two to three days a week. That's almost five times the number of workers who were doing remote work before the pandemic. Second, not only have we become accustomed to the comforts of work from home, but we've also become accustomed to the convenience of home delivery. And I say this only based on all those Amazon packages that arrive at my door. Myself and others like me have probably contributed significantly to the growth of E-commerce and the delivery economy during the pandemic. It's just become so easy. And finally, companies are enlisting automation and AI to cope with COVID-19, and any other future disruptions. This could mean putting robots in manufacturing plants and warehouses and adding self service customer kiosks and service robots in stores.   Dan Seguin  02:23 And we haven't even touched on the great resignation of 2021. According to NPR, 33 million Americans quit their jobs since the spring of 2021. Is it about better pay, treatment, flexibility or perks? Or is it about something more like reevaluating what success, happiness and work life balance means?   Rebecca Schwartz  02:53 One thing is for sure, Dan, the pandemic has ushered in a new era that's changing the workplace and the workforce for the future, and the electricity sector is not immune.   Dan Seguin  03:03 So, here's today's big question. Can the energy sector reimagine where and how work is done to increase rescaling efforts? And is the sector looking beyond the pandemic to reimagine how and where work is done?   Rebecca Schwartz  03:23 To answer these questions, we have Michelle Branigan, the CEO of Electricity Human Resources Canada joining us on the program, also known as EHRC. It is the leading source of HR information for Canada's electricity industry. Michelle, thank you for joining us again on the show.   Dan Seguin  03:41 Michelle, since the pandemic and this new hybrid world of work, what changes in the approach have you observed from energy HR leaders?   Michelle Branigan  03:53 Hi, Dan. Well, um, I would say that the work life balance discussion has been reignited, and research is showing us that many employees, current and or future will have expectations that they can work at home at least part of the week. So that has implications of course, not just on the business side; you know, think about real estate and office footprint, but on corporate culture, so employee engagement, productivity performance management. The HRC has actually conducted a number of pulse surveys over the last two years with both employers and employees. And we hold regional roundtables across the country on an ongoing basis. And I think the single biggest learning is the recognition that a hybrid work model can work without jeopardizing productivity, because that, of course, was a concern at the start of the pandemic. And that's a fair one, right? Safety is always going to be paramount for electricity; employers spread into the culture of the industry, but at the same time, the work actually has to get done. And so it's a balancing act for today's leaders. You need to make sure that you're achieving your organization's business objectives, while still taking care of employees physical and mental health. When we actually spoke to surveyed employees last year we heard that are over a little over 45% believe that they had the same level of productivity when working remotely; 48% actually said they had an increased level of productivity. And only 6% said they were less productive. But, employers who are concerned about productivity, need to make sure that their staff have the equipment, the processes, the supports, in place to do their job well, and then managers are going to need to take a more non traditional approach to understanding productivity and how you actually measure it. So that was probably the number one thing. And then I think secondly, the pandemic has really accelerated all discussion about the future of work right? Worldwide, and in our industry, of course. This is something that really is top of mind .Employees have been very vocal in expressing that they do not want to return to the same way of working as pre pandemic. It's actually the preference of many in the workforce to continue to work remotely. And that's going to pose challenges and opportunities for HR leaders over the coming years. And then just finally, very quickly, what I would say is that this is probably a little bit less about approach and more about recognition that human resources has become an essential voice, alongside, you know, operations, finance, and you know, the other core units and responding to the challenges of the pandemic and how we work as an organization going forward as a sector. All business units have had to adapt over the last couple of years. But the pandemic has shown that human resources, or HR really is a key function in every business. For years, HR professionals have reiterated the importance of managing and recognizing HR as a strategic business partner, not always with success. And I think that has drastically changed.   Dan Seguin  07:10 So true, Michelle. Now, has the pandemic, and remote working taught us anything about our workforce?   Michelle Branigan  07:20 Yes, just to pick up on that second point, people want more work life balance, it's incredibly important to them, right. Many have mentioned increased productivity as a positive result of working remotely, but even more spoke to having more time back in their life to do the things that they enjoy. They don't want to spend time in traffic that could be spent, you know, walking the dog or going to the gym, picking the kids up earlier from school is a huge thing. So even more than salary, time continues to be the most valued commodity if you want to think of it like that. But at the same time, not everyone wants to work from home all the time. So you know, there's a different side to that whole conversation. And there are other challenges. A number of people that we spoke to reported feelings of isolation, difficulty with communications with their colleagues; with their peers, and, or, an increased or extended workload. And I think a lot of us would recognize that, you know, it's very easy for a lot of people to continue working outside normal work hours, especially during those lockdowns that we had right? There wasn't much else to do. When your laptop was at the dining room table, there's a tendency to continue checking and responding to those emails. So those lines got blurred. And that's not necessarily a good thing. Now, that might change more as we come out of the pandemic, and people have, you know, get back to their lives and have different things to do. But a lot of people don't have the luxury of a separate office or a quiet space to work in. So, again, that isolation piece, people mentioned that to us and the mental health toll that comes with that. So, you know, as we move into this new world, this, I don't think there's going to be a one size fits all approach. I think collaboration, communication, productivity, they're all elements that are going to have to be considered by individual employees, as well as culture and employee morale. So, whatever work model you choose, as an employer, engaging all levels of employees and talking to them about why you're choosing one model over another- I think that's incredibly important because it will really help to increase buy in around that, you know, the opportunity to, you know, that could be things like the opportunity to collaborate knowledge sharing, mentorship, that type of thing, but just really make sure to communicate with your audience. And so they know why you're making that decision.   Rebecca Schwartz  10:03 Okay, so, you kind of touched on this, how my one sized approach does not work. So what are some of the challenges and opportunities that flexible working presents to the electricity sector?   Michelle Branigan  10:14 Well, many of our employers have committed to implementing a hybrid model for their office workforce in some shape, way or form, this is a huge change, because it's now becoming almost a de facto scenario, where many, many, not all, but many organizations are looking to do this on a go forward basis. And that was pretty unheard of pre pandemic. One of the more common scenarios I've heard today, this or that three days in the office, two days a whole model or two, three, but not everybody's going to find that that works for their business, there may be a challenge down the line from a recruitment and retention standpoint, as some individuals do not want to come back to the office at all. Again, there's no one size fits all, some companies want to go completely virtual. I've talked to a few, not very many who want everybody back in the office full time, I really think the sweet spot is in the model. It is the hybrid piece. Again, you know, we asked employees about the challenges when working remotely. Almost half of them 45% said there was no challenges at all to working remotely. But a quarter of our respondents said that their top challenge was the loss of collaboration with the colleagues, right? And then there was other challenges. Again, not having a defined workspace, not everybody has the office, IT challenges, internet, Wi Fi, those sorts of things, interruptions, and loneliness. I thought that was very, you know, that's very telling, when people are talking to you about some of those things that are on the list. Why do people like working remotely, why is a hybrid work model and that opportunity to be autonomous, important? 83% talks about commute, people do not like to spending time commuting. Better work life, balance, time flexibility, more time out of work. Some people actually even prefer working on their own right. So there's all these different things in the mix. And at the time, when this big experiment was actually going on, you have to remember that kids were doing school from home, people were trying to- everybody was in a house, either in a house with too many people or maybe isolated on their own. When people are actually working remotely without the pandemic, it's going to be a little bit different people may even prefer it a little bit more. And then one of the other things that I think is important in the electricity sector, and this gets lost sometimes is that a large percentage of our workforce doesn't work in an office. Right? They work in the field. So our PLT's, our arborists, excetera. So how do you work with that? Hybrid models can be possible for field staff, but it really depends on their specific work. And, you know, how you can accommodate that. During the pandemic, we did see some innovation; companies did make some changes. So for example, people who had their own individual work vehicles were allowed to take them home. So they didn't have to go to the office every day to pick up the work truck. They only had to come into the office now and again to pick up supplies instead of every day. New technologies allowed people to adjust field work. So they were doing safety rundowns over Zoom, for example, every morning. And they were doing remote installations directed by contractors or other team members over video who were connected to onsite staff. So that innovation there may continue once we emerge from the pandemic, depending on the circumstances. But there is a reality that it's not going to work the same way. And I think there could be perceived inequities between office and field staff, right? Regarding that continued flexibility. And I think that is a key concern for HR managers. You know, we could see resentment from those who cannot avail of those remote work benefits. So you think for an example, an office employee who's able to work from home, if they have cold or cough or they're sick, or maybe their child is sick, or there's child responsibilities, versus a field staff person who does not have that option, and is going through their sick days or their vacation days, etc. So I think there is a challenge there, and we're going to need to spend some time on that.   Dan Seguin  14:49 This is really interesting, Michelle. Let's continue the conversation on challenges. What are the potential challenges attached to leading remote teams? What skill sets do managers have dispersed workforce need to inspire innovation and drive engagement across remote teams?   Michelle Branigan  15:09 I actually think this is going to be a key area of learning for managers, and supervisors of remote teams, you know, when employees are dispersed, and sometimes it's not in the city, even in the same city, it might be even in a different province, now. That manager has less insight into what the employee is actually doing. This links back a little bit to the productivity piece, I have read about some bias existing with managers believing that those working in the office do more than those who work at home. So I think we need to guard against that, right? Especially when we have seen that productivity hasn't dropped in the Canadian electricity industry, from the employers that we've spoken with. But, there was a US survey just in the fall of 2020, Gartner survey, and they looked at and spoke to about 3000 managers and 64% of managers and executives believe that employees who are in office are higher performers than remote employees. And 76 believe that in office workers are more likely to be promoted. That's something that I want to pulse more with our industry and something to watch. I think there's a potential issue there. Obviously. Some employers are turning to software to monitor remote working employees so that the manager can verify if people are working productively from home or working at all. Now, I think that practice is pretty controversial as an employer response to remote working; it's not one that I would endorse. I think if you have to monitor your team, to that degree, you have an issue of culture and morale. And then what type of message does it send to your employees? Right? You're not trusting them from the outset, that's going to impact your ability to hire, certainly to retain. And that's not a good idea, in a tight labor market. So I think managers need to presume intent, right, presume that the majority of your teams want to go to work to do a good job to be productive, and then give them the tools to make sure that they understand and meet their deliverables. So that means that while they're doing that, there also needs to be very clear communications about an individual's role and expectations about what that role actually is, right? So that's what's really important that we don't lose that make it very clear as to what is critical. And what is important. At the end of the day, no matter what channel you're using, team communications is really important, it's too important to be an afterthought. And ensuring that you have the right tools in place for collaboration is going to make sure that your team meets the objectives, they're being productive, they're hitting their deliverables, and supporting the organization. And, from a skills perspective, very similar to what they needed to do before, you know, empathy, very strong communication skills, listening skills, I think there will be more training required on a few things. Because managers are not just going to be expected to make sure that the task gets done, but they're the main point of contact within the organization, right? Trying to make sure that the employee feels valued, feels listened to, is engaged, feels part of the company. You know, managers may need to be trained to learn to acknowledge and respond to what they hear, be that responding to topics such as work overload, illness, childcare. I do think they have a lot on their shoulders. And I would say that it's going to be really important that managers, supervisors, you know, anyone with that leadership commitment, they're all under more pressure now than ever to support their staff. And so we need to make sure that we're also looking after the managers, right? I think that is incredibly, incredibly important.   Rebecca Schwartz  19:15 Thanks, Michelle. So with the post COVID landscape coming into reality, what does it mean for office workers or field workers? Specifically with respect to maintaining that focus on employee happiness, health, and safety?   Michelle Branigan  19:29 Well, mental health was a growing concern among employers, even before the pandemic, right? So I would say, when you look at wellness, that really has become a core business priority as a result of this pandemic. You know, we've seen a major shift from an employer's responsibility for their employees physical and mental health while on the job, to looking out for their well being both on and off the clock. And I think that leaders who are mindful of employee well being really can go a long way in helping individuals balance, you know, the mental health needs by being productive at the same time, and able to contribute their best towards organizational goals. At the end of the day, most individuals want to be their best at work, right? And employers can support that through a range of different initiatives. Whether that is defining flexible work hours and flexible work, maybe focusing on effort and results rather than time spent. You know, you want to make sure managers are not micromanaging. Are you judging people's contributions to work by the fact that they are in their chair from nine to five? Or are you looking at deliverables? And I think encouraging teams to establish and respect boundaries. Because quite often, you know, a few small changes can make a really large impact in supporting employees, especially when it comes to mental health. You know, opening that discussion, and having those sort of open supportive environments where people feel comfortable communicating their needs, that's a great place to start. And really looking at your employee engagement strategy. And asking your employees, what they value most as an employee is absolutely critical. Don't presume that you know what they want or value from you as an employer, or in the workplace.   Dan Seguin  21:38 Now, Michelle, let's move from wellness to culture. How can utilities be intentional about creating a strong, positive, and inclusive company culture? What are some best practices?   Michelle Branigan  21:54 Well, I think you hit the nail on the head, Dan, in using the word intentional. There's really increasingly more pressure for organizations to be more diverse and more inclusive. And, of course, that is driven by societal forces, clear messaging from this next generation, that is values driven. They care deeply about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and they are paying attention to it. They are looking at your annual reports, they are looking at your board of directors, they're looking at how your organization is represented in the media. And I speak to a lot of young people, and it still amazes me how many of them are really taking this into account, when they're actually out looking for a job. So, cultural inclusion for me, anyone knows, that knows me well, knows that I say this all the time, it starts from the top down, right? It takes commitment, it takes intention, and it has to be genuine at the end of the day. I think some of the best practices include, again, engagement and communication, you'll hear these things, we echo these words, these themes a lot. Asking employees for feedback on how to improve your company's diversity and inclusion in the workplace. Quite often, there can be a disconnect between management or leadership, and everyone else in the organization, whereas, you know, whereby the presumption is that everything is fine, there's no bias in the organization, no one feels alienated or excluded because of their, you know, their race or their gender, whatever it may be. And that's a dangerous assumption that can be easily made, just because the problems are not visible. And not just by leaders, but by anybody working in the company, right? Who may not realize that, you know, their colleague is facing any sort of difficulty or challenge based on, you know, cultural background or identity or gender. So, communication is really key. For me, another big one, setting goals and measuring results, best practice. Absolutely. If we are going to affect that cultural change and we're going to implement good practices, we need to measure and report on the progress that we've achieved and the benefits to the company and to the individual. And I would say, sometimes, you know, it can be easy for organizations to capture these good news stories or the things that they've done and report it up, report to the board, report to the C suite. Feed the information to your employees, so that they can see that there's actual genuine commitment to change there, to creating that inclusive environment, and that their feedback or input is actually being heard. And don't be afraid of the mistakes that are learned along the way because, again, this goes to the genuine commitment piece. If a company is truly responsive to the needs of the people that are working there and are making these attempts in good faith, you will get there eventually, right? So really, really important to look at that. I am going to put in a shameless plug, Dan, for the EHRC's Leadership Accord on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. So that, of course, is a framework to help companies do this; it's an actual framework that will help leaders commit to real progress and change; identify where the gaps are in their own organizations, and then put in an action plan to actually address it over a couple of years. So, it's a really good tool. And please check that out if you want to get started. And then for others who want best practices, and maybe don't know where to get started, another place is our illuminate now toolkit that's on our website. And that has tips and tools and videos to support managers to develop or enhance their best practice DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion), how to strategies, right? Because there's all sorts of things that an organization can do, from diversity on hiring panels, changing the language of maternity or paternity leave, to parental leave instead, in your policies. There are so many things to do to be inclusive, to make people feel like they belong to an inclusive workplace. More than we could cover, we could cover today, but there's lots of resources there on our website to help people on that journey.   Dan Seguin  26:25 Okay, you've touched on communications earlier, let's look at it through a digital workplace lens. What are organizations discovering about effective communication and collaboration?   Michelle Branigan  26:37 It's possible, you know, IT infrastructure really is the backbone of all modern workplace communications, right? When it goes wrong, we all notice very quickly now. And with the pandemic, we actually talked to organizations about this last year, about 30% of our employers told us they had to fast forward plans for better networking and connectivity. Over half had to increase their IT functionalities by setting up VPN or buying phones and that type of thing. Most organizations were very quickly able to ensure that video conferencing applications, like Zoom, were embedded as part of that day to day work environment. We've all seen instant messaging platforms like Slack, they've grown immensely in popularity, you know, it cuts down on emails when people are working remotely. And it also provides a forum for employees to engage. It's become sort of the equivalent of the watercooler right people telling jokes or sharing. So, it becomes an engagement tool, as well as a communication tool. But regardless of all the tools that are out there, you know, there's lots of things that you can use to bring your teams together and allow them to work efficiently. But I think the key to success is actually just utilizing those, they're a means to an end, right? To encourage active communication and maintain your company culture. And that really is no easy task in a digital environment. You know, you want to make sure that folks don't feel disconnected. I personally think it will be important to try and bring people together to meet in person, at some stage, be that twice a year at a company retreat, maybe it's once a week, or once a month, at an all hands on deck day. I've heard of people doing different things; it's going to depend, of course, on the size of your company, and how geographically spread you are. But one thing, you know, that does come to mind is when people work remotely, they're less likely to have social ties at the offices with colleagues who, over time, become friends, right? And that in itself erodes the connection that they have with the company. And it makes it easier for them to quit, as well. So you know, that can impact company culture, of course, and your retention, your retention strategies. And I think of how difficult it is for that next generation of new talent, young people who are just starting on their career, maybe in the first or second job, and they're not getting all of the benefits that exist by working in the office and having the opportunity to have a mentor, to have somebody that they can connect with and to listen to some of the conversations that take place in a professional setting and to the degree that they do in the office. So, I think IT is great, but it's how we actually use it that is going to make a difference.   Dan Seguin  29:39 Thanks, Michelle. But, now, this leads me to the follow up question. How can the energy sector ensure all employees across the organization, both office workers and frontline workers, have access to digital workplace technologies and feel engaged?   Michelle Branigan  29:59 Yes. Regardless of what you do right with your office first or hybrid remote first. Getting that technology to your teams to make sure that whatever way they're doing it as a group spread out, is really important. So make sure that they have access to those tools. I think you also need to be very transparent about expectations and performance. I know I mentioned that a little bit earlier. But, I think from an engagement perspective, there's a there's a few things that can be done. You know, we've all heard the expression death by PowerPoint. I think we're all turning into- I read this yesterday, and I thought it was great. Instead of zombies, we're all turning into "Zoombies", where we're all, you know, we're all worn out by the end of the day, because we all have so many of these Zoom meetings or video conference meetings that are absolutely exhausting. So, I think there is, you know, we need to look at how many Zoom meetings that we're having, are they really necessary, sometimes the telephone is an OK way to communicate. That old fashioned way of picking up the phone and talking to each other. Do you want to have cameras on? So, for some organizations, it's very important. Maybe for small meetings, you want to make sure that cameras have to be on and that's a requirement. But, maybe if it's a bigger meeting, and you have 100 or 200 people, you don't need everybody to have their camera on. And that's okay. So, the idea is you're trying to use these tools to make and make sure that everybody is engaged, and that they're not multitasking, that they're actually paying attention to what's going on on the screen. So, taking that into account and thinking about it carefully is really important. You know, when you do have meetings, and it's a meet, you know, you have people both in the room and virtually engaged, making sure that you're calling upon those who are not physically present in the room to speak. I think that's really important; not forgetting that there's people on the screen and just gravitating towards those who are who are actually around the conference room table, for example. Have a look and see, you know, are the people in the room, do they absolutely need to be in the meeting? Looking at how many video conference meetings are necessary. You know, we're all tired of the glitchy WiFi, telling people that they're muted, all those sorts of things, right? And they can be just exhausting. And they cannot replicate real life interaction. So, just looking at your policy of how you use the tools is very important. You know, I had a mixed meeting the other day where I had people from a couple of different provinces, on my own team, and the rest of us in the boardroom, where we had to share visuals. Nothing worked; the audio was terrible and so we went away with some lessons learned from the tools that we had and how we look to set that up so that it is a more engaging meeting for everybody concerned and productive at the end of the day.   Rebecca Schwartz  32:59 I'm wondering if you have words of wisdom or lessons learned from the past two years, dealing with the pandemic, and about communicating to, I guess, such a dispersed workforce?   Michelle Branigan  33:11 I would say, and you'll both like this, in the field that you're in, you cannot over communicate. Communication, communication, communication. I think no matter what kind of work situation we're in these days, whether it's working from home, the field, the office, a mix of all three of those, one thing hasn't changed. And that's that teamwork and collaboration are as important as ever. And that teams that communicate well are going to see better business results. They're going to be more innovative, they're going to be more productive. And, really, at the end of the day, when you have teamwork that's done right, it makes everyone feel that their contributions are valued. So, providing ways and means from people to be able to communicate with each other. And as a leader, communication is extremely critical to ensure that people feel engaged. And, again, it goes back, it goes back to culture.   Dan Seguin  34:19 Very interested in your thoughts on this next question, Michelle. There's a new phenomenon taking place. It's "The Great Resignation". Has the electricity and energy sector been affected? And have we surveyed the reasons why?   Michelle Branigan  34:35 So anecdotally, we are hearing that yes, it has affected, the industry. It seems like every other week I'm hearing about retirements all throughout the industry, Dan. I actually need to do and want to do, it's on my wish list, is to do some more labor market intelligence to see how that's actually reflected in the data because it's one thing to hear about it anecdotally. I like to see the data right. So what are companies reporting on? What are their attrition rates? Where are their pain points? And what are they seeing? And is it reflected in, you know, one set of occupations more than the other, for example, are more trades people leaving because they're in the field and they've had to, you know, experience and deal with COVID implications from a safety perspective, much more than somebody that is in that office environment. Again, it goes right back to what we spoke about at the beginning and some of those differences. So, I do want to do more data on that. I would say anecdotally, yes, we're dealing with issues. I don't know we're dealing with it to the same level that we're seeing in the USA? I don't know that Canada is seeing it there. We know that there's a tight labor market out there right now. The last Statistics Canada data, just in December, reported that the National Unemployment Rate had dropped to 6%. So that was approaching pre-pandemic levels. But, at the same time, I'm talking to everybody who is struggling to find employees right now, right? In all different types of occupation. But we have actually been talking about this for years in Canada, right? Many electricity employers are seeing that with that increased turnover on that demographic time bomb that I've been talking about, you know, all the baby boomers deciding to retire even earlier than planned. Anecdotally, due to the pandemic, a lot of times. And at the same time, younger employers have different expectations as to what they want from a career in a post COVID world and the type of company that they want to work for. And so losing talent in such a competitive labor market, it's really costly. It's quite time consuming. When you factor in the cost of recruitment, interviewing, onboarding. And then there's a problem there that those who are planning to leave may check out long before they actually give in their notice, right? So you do get a loss of productivity there that can impact others in the organization and contribute to reduced morale. So I think this is something that we will definitely be looking at over the coming months and years. What does the data tell us? Why are people leaving? And if they are going, is it because of some of the things I've mentioned earlier, such as the ability to work remotely, autonomy, flexibility? Or is it because they've decided that they want a completely different career path outside of the electricity industry? And this, there's one thing that I want to talk to employers about, is their plans on workplace models and hiring. Because if you remove the requirement to live near where you work, you do open up access to a wider pool of qualified workers right across the country, right? And that's going to be attractive to some companies in a tight labor market.   Rebecca Schwartz  37:59 So, given this "Great resignation", Michelle, how can the energy sector address the work life balance? And what about promoting a healthy work culture?   Michelle Branigan  38:08 Um, it's funny, we asked employees what their managers or employers could be doing to help during the pandemic. And I think a lot of this will transition over into this new way of working, the future of work, which is not really long in the future. It's here. Flexible work hours. These are the top five things that they mentioned to us: flexible work hours, better communication, making sure that people have the equipment, or the tools for work from home needs, mental health supports, and then socialization opportunities, right? All of those opportunities to engage with their colleagues. So, I think leaders and managers can start with a few strategies to do that. First of all, just remind your teams of the many mental health resources that are available to them. If you have an employee system program, talk about it. It's amazing how many employees forget that you have one of those because it's mentioned when you are onboard, and that's about it. Again, with many employees working from home, that average workday can easily bleed into additional hours at the dining room table. So, setting boundaries for your team to ensure that they are, you know, they don't continue to work well past their usual hours just because they can. Ontario, here in Ontario, the government has just enacted the right to disconnect policy. So, setting boundaries and ensuring that your team knows they don't have to respond to emails day and night. And recognizing that people may have different work schedules, depending on what it is that they do or their home circumstances. I think it's important to communicate that. When you're looking at, you know, retaining people- simple things, this is so simple, but recognizing your staff. Saying thank you can go an awful long way, even if it's for a regular task well done, right? Employee recognition, you know, can be a note of appreciation, or just even highlighting people in your internal newsletters. Leaders really need to set an example that will build a culture of recognition throughout the organization and making sure that employees, at the end of the day, feel appreciated for the work that they do. I think those are the sorts of things that promote a healthy work culture.   Dan Seguin  40:37 Now, Michelle, what can employers and leaders do to retain and attract employees in this challenging environment?   Michelle Branigan  40:48 So, um, I would say, there's a few things here, um, again, communicate. So, to keep good employers, you want to meet their needs and their expectations, and you want to understand what keeps them inspired, right? Senior managers have to understand the dynamics of their current employee base, the drivers of turnover. And remember that the things that initially draw people to a company, which may be pay and benefits, they're not necessarily the same things that keep them there. So, think work life balance, career development, performance management, company culture, that all becomes part of the equation, when an employee starts thinking "should I stay, or should I go"? So, looking at those sorts of things from a retention perspective is really important. And at the same time, you know, there does need to be recognition that the work needs to get done. Business is business, and, so, organizations, especially when it comes to remote working, will need coverage, not everybody may be able to come from home. In some instances, employees will leave no matter what you do. And in that case, it's better to have them gone than stay and be disengaged. I think it's really important, though- and it surprises me- sometimes many people, when companies don't do this, conduct an exit interview. To gauge why they left. And then use that data to reflect on any issues that may need to be addressed. So, I think that's something important that companies need to remember. When you're looking to retain employees or attract employees, not everything is about salary, but if you're at least in the ballpark, with the industry average, or if you're not in the ballpark, that could be a reason for losing somebody to the competition. So make sure that you're competitive, highlight the non monetary benefits to address competition from other industries. So do you provide opportunities for career development, or flexible hours, or the opportunity to be mentored? For example, does your benefit plan actually benefit your employees or only a portion of those? You know, it might be time to take a look at how flexible and useful at those plans are. And then who has access to flexible work? We've seen organizations where some managers allow their employees flexibility, while others don't. So I think the principle of fairness is going to apply here. Companies need to be consistent in whatever approach that they take. Another item, this is going to be incredibly controversial over the next year, Dan, and we're watching it closely, but it's the idea of reducing pay for those who work remotely. What happens when employees move to locations with a lower cost of living? Should employers lower their compensation, even though the impact of the employee's work hasn't changed? I think that is something that I'm reading about more and more, it's coming up more and more in conversations. And I think this is going to be very impactful from a recruitment and retention perspective. You know, think about an individual who has been working remotely and you know, they're now asked to come back into the office one day a week, they have a long commute, if there's only one day a week in the office or one day a month, they're more likely to be willing to put up with that. But if suddenly that changes to three day weeks, three days a week, well, then the question is, is the job and the commute worth it? Or is it more important to me, my home base, where I live, is that more important? So these are all the scenarios that, and the conversations that we're going to be having, with employees over the coming year. And I think one of the more innovative things that people need to do, as well, is really try and look at progressive HR practices to stay on top of what's actually motivating employees. So, you know, not just talking about exit interviews, but doing stay interviews. Asking people what will make them stay? What do they enjoy about working at your organization? And then developing retention plans based on workforce demographics, you know, because your your 22 year old may have a very different perspective to your 45 year old or your 55 year old. And so these are some of the things that I think are really important to think about, as we have multi-generations working in workplaces right now that have different values, not all different values, but some different values as they move through their careers.   Rebecca Schwartz  45:36 With all these changes in the workplace, such as values and expectations, can we future proof learning and development? And how can the sector better prepare the employees for this new future of work?   Michelle Branigan  45:48 I would say that it is critical to acknowledge that we're now in a state of continuous learning, it's not enough just to get your Engineering degree or to get your Journeyperson Ticket and think "that's it. I'm set for the rest of my career". Most people will have a number of different roles in their careers now. And so, as the technology advances and the industry evolves, the skills and competencies required to remain relevant in your job are going to increase. I see that right throughout all occupations. So, I think there's personal responsibility there on the part of the employee to understand the impacts and to evaluate their skill sets and see what they need to do. From the employer's perspective, oh my gosh, it makes absolute sense to support the professional development of your employees for so many reasons, right? Offering training and development opportunities. It's a great strategy to keep engagement high. But make sure it's relevant to employee goals, ask employees what they think would benefit them in their, in their, in their aspirations. Challenge workers by giving them more interesting work and stretch assignments. And really, you know, continuous learning and managing talent should be one of the key tactics that are discussed by your HR teams, to give opportunities to your employees, just to continuously develop. Whether that's through in house training, or support for them to do something, you know, external education, but show your employees that you're interested in developing a career path along with them. I think that's really, really critical.   Dan Seguin  47:25 Okay, Michelle, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?   Michelle Branigan  47:33 I am.   Dan Seguin  47:34 Okay, let's go. What are you reading right now?   Michelle Branigan  47:38 Well, I'm hooked right now by a series of books called the enemy. It's a post-apocalyptic young adult horror series. It's written by Charlie Hickson. The books take place in London after a worldwide sickness has infected everyone 16 and older and has turned them into creatures similar to zombies. Basically, all the adults are eating the kids. It's extremely gory. And it makes the pandemic look like a walk in the park. And it's really noted for the fact that it kills off any possible character. So it really leaves you on edge all the time. So, that's what I am hooked into right now. And I run into my 13 year old's bedroom every now and again, very, very upset that they've killed off yet another one of my favorite characters.   Dan Seguin  48:32 Now, Michelle, what would you name your boat? If you had one?   Michelle Branigan  48:37 Oh, my gosh, "Let Me Off". I'm not one for boats, Dan, I'm too claustrophobic and I feel like I should be doing other things. So, I'm great for an hour. But then after that, yeah, get me out of here and onto dry land.   Dan Seguin  48:49 Now, who is someone that you admire?   Michelle Branigan  48:53 Oh, I don't know how anyone right now could say anything but Ukrainian people at this moment in time, right? The bravery and strength and staying there to fight for their country. The fear and the strength that those who must flee, that have children and babies in their arms; it's just heartbreaking to watch. And just the strength that we're seeing coming from everybody in that, from that country right now. I think that's top of mind. For all of us.   Dan Seguin  49:23 So true. Moving on to the next one. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Michelle Branigan  49:31 Oh my gosh, Dan and Rebecca, I really struggled with this one. I think I'm a bit of a cynic when it comes to magic. I cannot think of anything for this except maybe that I suspend all cynicism when I go to Disneyland. And just get right into it. I love it. I would go again and again and again. So that's, I think, the closest to magic that for me,   Dan Seguin  49:54 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic?   Michelle Branigan  50:01 For me, not being able to travel home to my family in Ireland. And then more generally, travel. I love to travel. Reading and travel; film. Those are my things. I get itchy feet really quickly. And so, like many people, I just think it's that sense of frustration when you can't just get up and go. Italy is my favourite country in the world. I can't wait to get back there. But, other than that, over the last couple of years, you know, I have to say that I have counted myself very lucky. We have a comfortable house, we've got a nice garden, food on the table. And I really do think that there's a big difference between want and need. And I think as a society, we have to, I think, start maybe being a little bit more grateful for what we have.   Dan Seguin  50:43 Okay. We've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?   Michelle Branigan  50:52 For me, "Ozarks". Great acting, great writing. Absolutely superb. Loving it. And I'm looking forward to diving into the last six or seven episodes of "The Walking Dead". You might have got that reference from my reading material.   Rebecca Schwartz  51:10 Lastly, Michelle, what is exciting you about your industry right now?   Michelle Branigan  51:15 Oh my gosh, I would say the change. Change. Everything that's going on. It fascinates me. It drives me. it's exciting. You know, we're all talking about net-zero. We're talking about electrification, low carbon, climate change, you know, what kind of world are we going to live leave for our kids and our grandkids? And everything that's going on right now, it's probably very easy to become pessimistic, when we see some of the things and some of the challenges. And you know, you look at all the fires and the floods and everything like that. But, I think our industry is really motivated to address some of these challenges. And so, the change is what excites me and how we get there.   Rebecca Schwartz  51:58 Well, Michelle, that's it. We've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?   Michelle Branigan  52:08 Go to our website, electricityhr.ca, a wealth of information there for folks. And, of course, I'm on LinkedIn, and always happy to hear from people. That's our, one of our jobs here and roles here is to talk to people about all these challenges and issues. And so, I love hearing from our industry folks as to the ideas that they may have to help us as we move this industry forward.   Dan Seguin  52:35 Again, Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.   Michelle Branigan  52:40 I did have a lot of fun. Thank you both so much, Rebecca, Dan, always a pleasure to talk to you.   Dan Seguin  52:46 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

Canada becoming net zero by 2050 is a commitment made by the federal government, but there’s a lot of action needed at a community level before this can happen. Municipalities make up 50% of greenhouse gas emissions in Canada, so does that mean achieving net zero is actually a grassroots movement? Tonja Leach, Executive Director of QUEST Canada, joins Dan and Rebecca to talk about the importance of championing communities and how one of the biggest keys to a greener future is getting people to buy into the world we want to create.   Related links LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/questcanada/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonjaleach/ www.questcanada.org https://twitter.com/QUESTCanada info@questcanada.org tleach@infocanada.org   --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod   Transcript:   Dan Seguin  00:06 This is ThinkEnergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. You know, we've talked a lot on the show about Canada's goal to be net zero by 2050. But I've been asking myself lately, if achieving net zero is really a grassroot movement. I mean, there's a lot of action that needs to happen at the local level before Canada can achieve its goals. And since 50% of greenhouse gas emissions in Canada are from municipalities, before we can talk about the big national picture, we need to look at every community across our country, and how they can affect change at their level, and what kind of coordination and effort will it take.   Rebecca Schwartz  01:15 That's right. Without a coordinated approach, communities with all of their different socio economic realities, different landscapes and different local perspectives may implement different measures that may not be compatible with their neighboring communities. Or they may fall short of achieving the necessary results.   Dan Seguin  01:34 Did you know that hydro Ottawa is going net zero by 2030. And the City of Ottawa has committed to achieving net zero of its operations by 2040. Both of these are great examples of grassroots initiatives. So here's today's big question. How important is it to empower community champions and influence decision makers to continue to create the conditions necessary for communities to contribute to Canada's Net Zero targets?   Rebecca Schwartz  02:07 On today's show, our special guest is Tonja Leach, Executive Director at Quest Canada. They're a nonprofit that supports communities in their quest to reach Net Zero. Tonja is a sought-after advisor working with Canada's energy sector, three levels of government, and community builders. And she helps them essentially to transition to a more sustainable energy future. Tonja is also active on a number of committees, like the Energy Futures Lab Partners council and steering committee, the Clean Resource Initiative Network, and the Positive Energy Advisory council, among others. And we're really happy she's here to talk to us today. Hey, Tonja, welcome to the show.   Tonja Leach  02:55 It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.   Dan Seguin  02:57 Tonja, as the executive director, maybe you could start by sharing with our listeners, what the QUEST organization is all about, such as maybe talk about your vision, your mission for Canada?   Tonja Leach  03:10 We're in the middle of updating our vision. So I'll give you the old version and recognize it will change slightly soon. So, our vision is that Canada's a nation of Smart Energy communities. And I say that's going to be updated, just because we've done some updating, you know, kind of tying things more closely to the net zero agenda. So there'll be some language changes to that. But the concepts and the principles still are accurate and remains the same. So, QUEST is a national nonprofit organization, and we support communities in Canada, on their pathway to Net Zero. Since we've been doing this since about 2007. And we facilitate connections, empower community champions and influence decision makers to implement efficient and integrated energy systems that best meet the community needs and maximize local opportunities. We develop tools and resources can be in stakeholders, rights holders, and advise decision makers, all with the goal of encouraging and enabling communities to contribute to Canada's netzero goals.   Dan Seguin  04:09 Okay, cool. What Critical Role do communities have in achieving Net Zero? How important is strong support and buy in from these communities?   Tonja Leach  04:21 Well, as I indicated, we work very closely with them. So maybe I have a biased opinion on this. But I mean, if you just look at the numbers, you know, communities are responsible for 50% of our energy use and about 50% of our emission. So that in and of itself tells you how important they are in achieving the Net Zero objectives that we're striving to achieve. So, Canada is going to have to rely quite heavily on communities to get there, but they require support and resources and they're not being supported or resourced in a way yet that they need to be really be able to play the impactful role that they can and should be playing. Many municipalities have been putting together community energy plans, community energy and emissions plans, you know, declaring climate emergency, I think there's over 500 communities in Canada that have now done that, and all the plans that go along with that, while quite aspirational, and I think that's a good thing, has really put municipalities in the driver's seat on energy. And that really has kind of flipped energy planning around a little bit, right. We know energy planning traditionally has been top down from the provincial level. But because they are playing such an active role in kind of dictating what that energy, their energy future looks like, it's actually put them in the driver's seat. So this is an interesting conundrum that we're facing right now. And it has led to a number of misalignments, you know, disconnects between what the province thinks about how energy is going to look in 2050, compared to what local governments think it's going to look like  in 2050. And, you know, I think there's a number of stakeholders that are kind of being caught in the crosshairs of that at this point in time, and we need to be building better alignment across them. So they have a very critical role to play coming back to your question. But there's still a lot of uncertainties about how we actually leverage the, you know, that the role that communities have to play and how we enable them to do that.   Dan Seguin  06:17 Tonja, I'm curious, what are the low hanging fruits municipalities can take advantage of?   Tonja Leach  06:24 Yeah, I think this is an interesting one, I think one of the things that part of the uncertainty comes from the fact of not knowing who has what role or responsibility to play and when to play that card. But municipalities, just by their very nature, have a number of, you know, cards in their hand to play. They're responsible for land use planning, and we know that one of the biggest impacts on our energy use is land use, right? How are we moving around in our communities? How effectively and efficiently can we do that, you know, places, creating communities where you can live work, and play makes a big difference on the amount of energy that we that we need. And also, you know, making sure that we're kind of balancing, supply and demand. And if you think about that, from a thermal context, where is heat, waste heat being generated from, say, an industrial process, that can actually be leveraged in the system itself. And if you build communities in a way and plan communities in a way that you can take advantage of those, you're obviously that much further ahead. They also have responsibility on transportation, you know, whether that is public transportation systems, and we see lots of kind of hybrid systems coming in now as well. You know, I mentioned low carbon thermal enabling Net Zero buildings and Net Zero infrastructure development, and supporting renewable energy deployment, distributed energy resources. There's lots of opportunity there, although lots of challenges in that regard as well. So, there's lots of low hanging fruit that they can take advantage of at this point in time and kind of start to contribute to the outcomes that we're all collectively striving for.   Rebecca Schwartz  07:57 Okay, now, what makes QUEST's approach to supporting community netzero objectives unique?   Tonja Leach  08:03 Yeah, thanks. I think what makes us unique is, well, a number of factors actually, at the highest level, I'd say that we take a systems approach to kind of the energy transition more broadly speaking, not to kind of belittle the need for a sectoral approach, but we need both. And if we don't, my analogy here is is you can't rehabilitate a forest, if you only focus on the trees, you need to be looking at the entire ecosystem. So that's the approach that we take is kind of looking at it from an ecosystem, and how do you kind of maximize the efficiency of the entire system or rehabilitate the entire system. So that's kind of the at the highest level our focus. We're also unique in that were across Canada, so we can actually see what's going on in different jurisdictions and kind of share best practices and lessons learned between jurisdictions, which is also really helpful. And we're also focused on what I call the less sexy stuff. So as far as we're not necessarily talking about specific technologies. We are, you know, there's a recognition, I think it was the International Energy Agency says, we have 80% of the technological solutions, we need to get to 2050. But the challenge is really getting them deployed. And that's where we focus. So this is on, you know, governance structures, business models, regulatory structures, legislation, policy, all of those, you know, there's no ribbon cutting ceremonies or any of those things, right. But those are the things that I think are increasingly being recognized as the inhibitors of or the pressure relief valve that we need to address the need for going to not just achieve net zero, but be sustainable and net zero.   Rebecca Schwartz  09:48 And a quick follow up for you, Tonja, you recently published a 2021 impact report. What are some of the highlights from this report that you're most proud of?   Tonja Leach  09:57 Well, I'm not sure if it's actually called out in the impact report, but I will say that I'm most proud of my team. I think that the team here at QUEST, we're often told that we punch well above our weight. And I do believe that that's true. And they're just an incredible group of people to work with. So just want to call that out first and foremost. In the 2021, impact report, that was also the first year that we saw that kind of major first successes from a project that we have going on in New Brunswick, called the Smart Energy Community Accelerator. And coming back to my first comment I made here about our vision that's in its next iteration to be reframed as the Net Zero Community Accelerator. And it really is focused on building that local capacity and the results of that project were greater than we had anticipated that they would be. So there's, there's a lot of positive momentum there. And, you know, kind of we are taking that as where do we go next with that? How do we expand that to be a national program that supports both building local capacity that's needed. So the tools, the resources, the knowledge, etc., but also kind of adding another stream to that, which is focused on getting projects to the point of implementation. So project initiation, we'll call it. So we're really proud of the work that we've been doing there with communities directly. The other piece that I think I really want to call out, as well as the Innovation Sandbox projects that we've had on the go, and was referenced in that report, as well. And this is really addressing that issue, again, around the regulatory structure, you know, the regulatory structure that we have is not really designed for innovation. So how do you kind of build innovation into that, and the Innovation Sandbox work that we've been doing, which is a concept, the Innovation Sandbox concept, was actually first started in the financial sector, and has been in other jurisdictions around the world brought into the energy space. And so we're doing that here in Canada. I'm really proud of that work as well.   Dan Seguin  11:56 Now, with over 5000 plus communities with different political infrastructures, local concerns, and socioeconomic composition. Tonja, how can local perspective be captured and aligned?   Tonja Leach  12:12 Yeah, it's a great question. And I think this is one of the biggest challenges we're actually facing today. I think there's many people know kind of what they and their own organization can possibly can contribute. But the alignment of all of these things is really the nugget that we need to crack. So I hate to say that we need deeper engagement, because we hear that so often right, and we're beyond just wanting to talk about things, we want to be doing things. But we do need to be engaging much more deeply and across multiple sectors more effectively. Because we need clarity on costs on trade offs on who's taking on what role, who has, what responsibility, what the timelines are, all of these things are unknown. And I think people are making assumptions about them at this point in time, and that's leading to the misalignment. So in order to get to the alignment, we have to be much more engaged with each other and working much more collaboratively. A great comment that I heard the other day, which was, we must stop the energy solution Hunger Games, right? This is not about anybody, you know, taking over somebody else's space, as in this is an end scenario, right? We need all hands on deck if we're going to get there and we have to work collaboratively to get there. And we have to be understanding and respectful of who's got what role and responsibility in the transition.   Rebecca Schwartz  13:45 So we hear you're helping municipalities reach reduction targets by enabling investments of local renewable energy projects and infrastructure. I'm wondering if you could just unpack this for me a little bit, and maybe give us some examples?   Tonja Leach  13:59 Yeah, so I would say that we enable investment by helping to streamline processes. So I'll give you an example of that. This is a few years ago now. But there was an energy utility in Alberta that was looking to or wanting to kind of build out solar. And they spent, you know, two years of their time in regulatory hearings, you know, trying to figure out the regulatory construct for this. And then it came time to kind of made it through all of that process. And it was time to actually kind of engage with the community to deploy their vision for the solar system. And because they hadn't engaged the community at the front end of this, the community was not very happy about where they had sited on the riverbed, the solar system. So that really stalled the process. So a lot of what our role and kind of my comment about streamlining the process itself is kind of making sure you've got all of the right stakeholders engaged at the right part of the process. And so that you don't run into these hiccups at the back end, that is just going to slow you down or stall the process. So it seems a bit backwards that you want to take the time the front end, but by taking the time at the front end, you've actually kind of relieved the issue that you may run into at the backend. So a lot of our work is really about kind of playing that coordinator and streamlining the process.   Dan Seguin  15:27 Thanks, Tonja. Great example. Now, from what I'm hearing, there's an incredible amount of momentum, around Net Zero pledges in the public sector, from governments around the world and from private sector as well. What are your thoughts around these Net Zero commitments from organizations? How do they differentiate spin from substance?   Tonja Leach  15:50 Well, I guess on the one hand, I would say that it's great that we're seeing the environment, climate change, climate action, sticking through what I would say, as a number of serious challenges. COVID, Black Lives Matter, Indigenous reconciliation, what's going on in Ukraine right now, the fact that this is still kind of remaining on the radar, I think it's a really positive sign, because I think it's been derailed many times over the past 30 plus years. So I think that's a very positive sign from my perspective on the momentum that we've got, we must maintain that momentum. And many pledges are ambitious. With a lot of like, you know, this is what we're going to do, but we don't know how we're going to do it, yet. And I think actually, in a previous podcast of yours, Bryce Conrad mentioned his moon shot. And, and I think that this is good to right, I think this is really important that we're putting a stake in the ground and saying "this is what we are going to achieve". Understanding we don't yet know how but we are smart people will figure it out. I think those are essentially what Bryce said. And this is good. But we've, I think what takes it from a spin to substance is action. And we also need to start to kind of define. So we need to start to define the how, of what you know how we're going to achieve that moon shot. But we also need to accept that it's not going to be perfect. And that's okay. We're going to make mistakes, we need to learn from those mistakes, we need to move on from those mistakes. We need to share the lessons that we've learned so that other people don't follow in our footsteps. And we kind of help everybody leapfrog down the road as it were. But yeah, we have to start to take action to take it from spin to substance.   Rebecca Schwartz  17:38 All right, Tonja, in your report, All Net Zero Pathways Begin with a Local Step, you speak of how we need to account for behavioral changes, and social acceptability to scale up net zero solutions. What do you mean by that, exactly?   Tonja Leach  17:53 Yeah. And what I mean is that we don't get to Net Zero without people. So we talk about Net Zero in terms of, you know, a federal objective, and we talk about it in terms of, you know, introducing electric vehicles into our grid and Net Zero buildings. But actually, you know, to maintain the momentum that we were talking about earlier, we need buy in from people. So people play a huge role. We also need people to want to live in a world that we're trying to create. So you know, bringing people along in that process is so critically important. They need to be under, you know, have understanding of the trade off, that will, no matter what we do come out of this, right? There's likely trade offs on costs, there's possibly trade offs on reliability, but we can accept those for the environmental benefit that we're going to, you know, achieve. But if we're not clear about what those trade offs are and people aren't accepting of them, then it becomes much more difficult to accomplish the outcome of net zero that we're trying to achieve. I think that, you know, people are instrumental in insisting on equity and Indigenous reconciliation as part of this transition. So this is not just about transitioning our energy systems, we have to deal with these social issues as part of that. And that actually is an opportunity. And we should be leveraging that as an opportunity. And we need to see I mean, at the most basic level, people need to be willing to walk or ride a bike or take public transit in order to reduce the emissions that each of us contribute to our society and globally. So, have a big role to play. And if we are, you know, forging down this path without engaging them and building the buy in along the way, eventually we're going to fall off our stool. So we need them, we need many people involved.   Dan Seguin  19:46 Now, Tonja, what do you think are the most promising and impressive carbon reduction and removal technologies from the perspective of maximizing the ability to achieve Net Zero by 2050?   Tonja Leach  20:01 Yeah, so actually I did, you gave me this question in advance. And I thank you for doing that. So I did a little bit of research because I do sit on the Clean Resource Innovation Network steering committee, and they've been, you know, using some federal government funding to support some really interesting technological projects. And one of the things that is often called out as you know, one of the bigger challenges we face is methane. And, you know, methane is obviously a huge contributor to greenhouse gas emissions. And so it's one of those things that, you know, if we don't find a solution to that, then we're, you know, it's a harder process that we're trying to get through to get to Net Zero. So, there's a company called Econ Power, that has pioneered a technology called pulse methane pyrolysis. Don't ask me about the details of how it works, but it converts methane into hydrogen, and solid carbon, and it virtually eliminates CO2 emissions from the process. So I think it's those I'm just using that as an example. I think it's like those types of technologies that kind of can enable us to use and maximize the infrastructure that we've already developed. But, you know, helps to decarbonize those systems, because there's industries that are really challenging to decarbonize, right. And so, you know, we often reference like steel and cement and agriculture. And so if, you know, we need to be able to provide solutions that decarbonize those sectors as well. So I'll just I'll point to kind of those that decarbonize methane as a useful technology that I think, is maybe just on the early days of, you know, really being scalable and successful.   Dan Seguin  21:55 Cool. Okay. What are you most excited about when it comes to the vision and opportunities of Net Zero?   Tonja Leach  22:05 You know, to be honest, I think it's about collaboration, and what will come from that. I mean, as a society, I think we've all been pretty good about collaborating so far. But and there's more of that happening. But I think that, that for me is the exciting part. I think this is where, you know, really great ideas are born out of, you know, good collaboration. I'm really excited about, you know, much deeper energy system integration than we've seen so far. And there's many ways that that can happen through low carbon thermal solutions, distributed energy, resources, etc. So, anyway, yeah, I'm really excited about the collaboration component of this and how we, you know, collectively, bring ourselves together to achieve a mutually beneficial outcome.   Rebecca Schwartz  22:56 Okay, so how are different levels of government develop synergies across sectors to create opportunities that will enable innovation?   Tonja Leach  23:05 I'm gonna come back to a comment I said earlier about the energy solution Hunger Games. That just needs to stop. Right. We've been pointing fingers for so long and saying, "my solution is better than your solution". So for me, it's it's really about shifting from, I would say, an overemphasis, I think, on kind of sectoral solutions versus looking at things from a systematic perspective. But I think that is a big piece. And then, because nothing actually works in isolation of other things. Right. And so it's how do we take that more systematic approach to it? So it is a recognition that this is an 'and" conversation, not an "or" conversation. I think that is one of the, yeah, so I'm not I don't know if I'm directly answering your question, Rebecca. But I feel like this is kind of the nugget that we have to solve.   Dan Seguin  23:58 This one, our listeners always enjoy. What are some of the biggest barriers and challenges you've identified in your roadmap to zero emissions?   Tonja Leach  24:12 Yeah, as I said before, I think that it's not technology. So you know, I think it is not technology and that new technology, it's being able to deploy the technology that we have at scale. And that comes back to you know, those soft things that I was talking about earlier, around policy alignment. How is the policy structure between the province and you know, the energy utilities, energy service providers, regions and municipalities? How is that aligning? How is that mutually reinforcing? Because right now, it's not, I would argue.You know, governance structures, more broadly speaking, clarity of roles and responsibilities. You know, we need all the various actors to bring their solutions to the table and coordinate them. If we're going to achieve the outcomes that we're looking for. So the biggest challenge is that coordination and really, you know, getting to the clarity that we need on cost, on trade offs, on roles, responsibilities, and making sure that we then have the governance structures in place that enable those outcomes.   Rebecca Schwartz  25:17 Thanks, Tonja. Now, what do you think is the biggest myth or misunderstanding about Net Zero?   Tonja Leach  25:22 That's a hard one. Lots of misunderstanding. I gotta throw out cost. I don't think there's, you know, I would say the industry as a whole doesn't really have a good understanding of what this is going to cost to get us there. And not that I think that it could, we could actually put a real number on it. But we don't know how much it's gonna cost. We don't know who's expected to pay. This energy transition is very different than some of the transitions that we've seen before this, because they were always adding a new resource base, I would call it, into the mix. Right? This isn't about that. This is about how do we decarbonize the one that we've got? And that is a very different, it's a different challenge. Yeah, so I think the biggest myth or, you know, misunderstanding is that perhaps that this is simple. And that it's not going to cost us. Because it is going to cost us and it's very complicated.   Dan Seguin  26:23 Okay, Tonja, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?   Tonja Leach  26:30 I'm ready! Yes.   Dan Seguin  26:31 Okay. Let's go for it. What are you reading right now?   Tonja Leach  26:36 I'm just cracking open Mark Carney's "Values". As I said, I'm just cracking it open. But this is what interested me in it. The title is "Values: Building a Better World for All" and I'm reading this, sorry, "Mark Carney examines the shortcomings and challenges of the market in the past decade, which he argues has led to rampant public distrust, and the need for radical change. The book touts tangible solutions for leaders, companies and countries". So very timely, I would say with everything that's going on globally right now. And I'm hoping to get some useful insights from that book.   Dan Seguin  27:10 Cool. What would you name your boat? If you had one?   Tonja Leach  27:15 I don't have one. But my grandfather had one and his name was "Pipit", and I would have to choose that same name. The name is actually a seabird and the class of boat was a Seabird. So that's the correlation.   Dan Seguin  27:30 Okay. Moving on. Who is someone that you admire?   Tonja Leach  27:35 Oh, gosh, I think that's changed for me in the last week and a half. The President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, how could we not say that I admire I mean, just the way he has conducted himself throughout the last week and a half; stood up for his citizens, you know, kind of rallied the world around them and their challenges. Yeah, I truly admire what he's doing right now.   Dan Seguin  28:01 Now, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Tonja Leach  28:08 Okay, this is a funny story. We were driving in a snowstorm at night, maybe a month ago or so on a dark road, sounds terrible. And a car went flying by us and in the cloud, of, you know, snow that kicked up off the road. And then when it settled back down, the car was gone. And we were on a dead straight road, there was no tail lights. It was just gone. And I have, you know, both my husband and I looked at each other, like, where did it go? Is it in the ditch, it's just gone. And still, to this day, it has just gone no idea where it went. So that's a disappearing act.   Dan Seguin  28:46 Okay, Tonja, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic?   Tonja Leach  28:53 Oh, gosh, okay, um, well, I will start to say that I come from a place of privilege, and that I own my own home, I have my family. We've all been safe through all of this. So I'll start with all of that. But I would say, and I will also say that QUEST was a virtual organization before this, so that certainly helped as well. But I would say the hardest thing is transitions. Transitioning from work to home is literally the length of time it takes me to walk down a hallway. So you know, being able to shift gears from your work mind to mom mind, in that very short period of time. And obviously, when my kids were learning virtually at home, there was zero transition there at all right, it's kind of like double, you know, kind of playing multiple roles all at once. So I would say that's been the hardest thing, but by no means is that hard compared to what a lot of people have been through.   Dan Seguin  29:51 Now. This next one is pretty cool. We've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show right now?   Tonja Leach  30:03 I think I'm playing catch up on this. So we at QUEST, we often like to share some of the great stuff that is on Netflix or other streaming channels. But I'm catching up right now on "The Witcher", and I'm quite enjoying "The Witcher".   Dan Seguin  30:16 And lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now, Tonja?   Tonja Leach  30:21 Well, I would say that despite the challenges that we face on, you know, figuring out who's got what role and what responsibility; never has it ever been as exciting time in the energy space as it is now. I mean, it's challenging. But that brings excitement to that, you know, to the mix. So yeah, I would just have to say that, like everything, really everything about what's going on right now, but yeah, I'm, you know, yeah, this is this collective objective of achieving a sustainable Net Zero future is just, it's inspiring. And, yeah, it's really exciting to see how everybody's trying to figure out how we come together to achieve that outcome.   Rebecca Schwartz  31:12 All right, Tonja, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Now if our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?   Tonja Leach  31:23 Yeah, great. So you can connect with us through our website, www.questcanada.org. That's probably the fastest and easiest way; you can reach out to QUEST at info@questcanada.org. And I will even throw it out there, you can reach out to me directly TLeach@questcanada.org.   Dan Seguin  31:41 Again, thank you so much for joining us, Tonja. I hope you had a lot of fun.   Tonja Leach  31:46 I certainly did. This was a lot of great questions. And thank you for the opportunity to be here and share my thoughts with you.   Dan Seguin  31:53 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

The push to “electrify'' everything as a way to meet Canada’s net-zero goals is strong, but is it really the answer to everything? Should we start looking towards energy efficiency ahead of electrification? Robert Hornung, President and CEO of Canadian Renewable Energy Association, joins this episode of thinkenergy to discuss the benefits of using solar and wind energy to help decarbonize the electricity grid. He also enlightens us on how investing in renewable energy has the potential for significant job creation across Canada, and what a national clean electricity standard could look like.     Related links LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-hornung-3220145b/?originalSubdomain=ca https://renewablesassociation.ca/team/   --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/thinkenergypod   Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript:   Dan Seguin  00:06 This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co-host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back.   Rebecca Schwartz  00:32 On today's show, we're going to talk about renewables and the role that they play in reaching Canada's Net Zero targets.   Dan Seguin  00:39 The journey to net zero is one that will take us down a long and winding road with plenty of bumps, potholes, twists, and turns. But what about the scale and speed at which we should go? A recent report says that Canada is currently not on track to meet its targets.   Rebecca Schwartz  01:01 But the most pressing target is the one that Canada has set to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 40 to 45%, below 2005 levels all by 2030. But what's needed to accelerate electricity, decarbonisation and increase production for a cleaner national electricity grid? Is it renewables like wind, solar and energy storage?   Dan Seguin  01:25 Now, Canada's electricity system, like most systems around the world, was designed as a one way street, to generate, transmit, and deliver electricity to consumers. That's it. But as technology evolved, so has the expectations of Canadians and the demand to update our electricity grid to be two way interactive system. This includes supporting electric vehicles, energy storage, smart grid technologies, smart home technologies, home generation, and a host of other innovations. Rebecca, did you know that there is now a push to electrify everything? Virtually the entire auto industry has moved its investments in research and development to electric vehicles. Climate plans in cities, provinces, and countries are calling for radically improved energy-efficiency in buildings and the use of electric heat pumps to heat them. That could mean that we'll need twice as much electricity by 2050 as we do today. To get there, we need to expand our renewable fleet - tenfold.   Rebecca Schwartz  02:44 Via its report entitled Powering Canada's Journey to Net Zero. The Canadian Renewable Energy Association has issued a wake up call - a call to action for governments, utilities, regulators, electricity system operators and industry. To get Canada started on the path to meeting its commitment to net zero by 2015. Canada's electricity grid is the root directory of the Canadian economy, it will be very hard for other sectors to reach net zero if the electricity they use produces carbon emissions.   Dan Seguin  03:19 So here'stoday's big question: Is solar, wind and energy storage, the most economical way to decarbonize the electricity grid, and help Canada reach its netzero goals. And to help steer this conversation and a clear path. We've invited Robert Hornung, the president and CEO at Canadian Renewable Energy Association. His association engages Canadians to enable the responsible and sustainable deployment of wind energy, solar energy, and energy storage solutions to power Canada's energy future. According to Robert, there is no greater threat to our planet than climate change. Renewable energy is part of the solution. And it is also a great growth opportunity for Canada's green economy future.   Rebecca Schwartz  04:18 Robert, thank you so much for joining us today. I guess we'll just jump right in with our first question about your vision document Powering Canada's Journey to Net Zero, which talks about a wake up call - an urgent call to action for governments, utilities, regulators and the electricity industry? Wondering if you can unpack this for me and for our listeners?   Robert Hornung  04:41 Certainly. I mean, we produce this vision document because of, frankly the threat that we all face because of climate change and trying to identify and quantify the role of wind energy, solar energy and energy storage and helping us to address that challenge. And I mean, the challenges is a significant one. I meam, Canada has made a commitment now to move to net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. So essentially 100% reduction in emissions from today. And between 2005 and 2019, emissions only fell by 1%. So our vision speak about an urgent call to action. Because it's clear, we need to dramatically accelerate the scale and the speed of our efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, if we're going to have any hope at all of meeting those targets. And from our perspective, it's well understood that we're going to need a significant increase in the use of wind, solar and energy storage if those targets are to be achieved.   Dan Seguin  05:41 Okay, Robert. You've said that wind energy, solar energy and energy storage will be at the core of Canada's energy transition, but needs to expand tenfold? What makes renewables at scalable solutions to meet the electricity production required by 2050?   Robert Hornung  06:06 Well, I think first off, we have to sort of look to some of the research that's been done different studies that looked at what are the pathways to get to net zero greenhouse gas emissions? We just said it's an enormous challenge, how do we get there. And those studies consistently show that to get to net zero, you have to first and foremost decarbonize electricity production, so that you're not producing greenhouse gas emissions from electricity anymore. And then you have to expand that electricity production, because you're gonna want to use that electricity to substitute for fossil fuels in areas like transportation and, and buildings and an industry. Now, another thing that those studies consistently show is that the majority of that new electricity that we're going to need is going to come from wind and solar. And why is that? The simple reason is because wind and solar are the lowest cost options for new electricity production in our world today. And our vision developed an illustrative scenario, which is consistent with the findings of these netzero studies, which sort of assumes we're going to need to double electricity production, we assume that two thirds of that new electricity production is going to come from wind and solar. And that leads us to the calculation then. That that means you have to expand wind and solar has to be in Canada tenfold in the next 30 years. And that's why it's an urgent call to action. That's a mammoth task. It's achievable. But we have to get started now.   Rebecca Schwartz  07:31 Now at the top of your to do list for Canada, you start with the decarbonisation of our country's electricity production by the year 2035. Could you expand on why you feel this is critical to the 2015 zero timeline?   Robert Hornung  07:45 Yeah, sure. And I should start by noting that Canada has actually made a commitment to move to a netzero electricity grid by 2035. And that's consistent with guidance that's been provided by the International Energy Agency, which in looking at pathways to netzero concluded that if industrialized countries are going to get there by 2050, they need to decarbonize grids by 2035. And why is that? Well, it's because at the end of the day, when we're talking about climate change, we're worried about getting to net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. Yes. But we're also worried about the cumulative emissions that are going to be produced between now and 2050. It makes a big difference if we're steadily reducing, as opposed to just dropping off at the very end. And in that context, if you recognize the importance of electrification, in terms of moving to net zero, the sooner we have a clean decarbonized electricity grid, the sooner we can benefit from the actions taken to electrify transportation or to electrify buildings, and we can maximize the emission reductions associated with that. So that's really what the driver is to say, do that now because it pays off in multiple ways, because we also ended up being able to reduce emissions and other sectors more quickly as a result.   Rebecca Schwartz  09:02 Now, just a quick follow up - you know, in the report that Canada is not on track yet, and that there's little discussion about scale and speed. What needs to happen ASAP, so we don't fall behind.   Robert Hornung  09:15 Yeah, I mean, I think I'll just be first maybe a little bit about that scale, speed and scale. You know, we talked earlier about needing to grow wind and solar tenfold in the next 30 years. What does that mean? So we've looked at that, and we said, well, that means that for the next 30 years, every year, we would have to build wind and solar out at a rate that's eight times faster than the average rate we've been building it out over the last five years. And the later we get started, the more we have to build after that, and it becomes even more challenging going forward. So there's a real driver and a real need to move quickly and get started on this process. And so as we mentioned earlier, so we've identified a to do list terms of work we need to do to enable that. And it has a number of different factors. We need to look at putting in place foundational policies that sends signals to investors about the direction we're going in and provides them with confidence that they can proceed with investments. We need to reform electricity market structures and regulatory frameworks to adapt for the introduction of significantly more renewables in the grid. We need to build new electricity infrastructure, if we're doubling the size of the electricity grid, we need new infrastructure. We also need to accelerate our efforts towards electrification so that there's demand for this renewable electricity when you're putting it out into the grid. And finally, we need to put in place processes that actually allow us to procure that new renewable electricity going forward. In Canada, we have massive, untapped wind and solar energy resources. So it's not a question of do we have the resource we do? It's, can we capitalize on it and mobilize quickly enough to be able to take advantage of it?   Dan Seguin  11:03 That's a great segue. In your view, how can we decarbonize electricity to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in Canada's transportation, buildings, and industry sector?   Robert Hornung  11:16 I mean, I think we're already starting to see some real evidence of this transition occurring, although we're at an early stage. So in the transportation sector, everyone's aware we're moving towards a world dominated by electric vehicles in the future, so you see it in the choices made by auto manufacturers, consumers, etc. Going forward. But it's really more about electric mobility. You also see a growing number of e-bikes, for example, going forward. We see increasing investments in the electrification of public transportation. So, there's a real drive there in terms of the transportation sector. In terms of buildings, heat pumps, are going to be critical as a technology that allows us to reduce our reliance on natural gas for heating purposes going forward. And within industry, within heavy industry, we already see announcements being made from steel producers who are switching to electric arc furnaces, the aluminum smelters, that are starting to electrify. And across all of those areas, electrification is not the answer for everything. There are applications where electricity is not going to be the solution. But for many of those applications, you can actually use clean electricity to produce hydrogen, green hydrogen, if it's produced from renewable electricity. And that green hydrogen can then be used to support things like freight transportation, or long distance transportation, or other industrial processes. So, electricity really will have a central role to play. And again, we're starting to see that transition occur. But again, we have to accelerate those efforts, extremely if we're if we're going to achieve our targets.   Dan Seguin  12:53 Okay. Now, Robert, can you expand as to why it's so critical to rethink Canada's electricity infrastructure investments, and work to minimize the cost to expand electricity production? What is the low cost advantage that renewables have?   Robert Hornung  13:13 Well, I think, you know, I think we have to start from a recognition that when we're talking about doubling electricity supply, we're going to need more infrastructure to move that electricity around. But we also know that electricity infrastructure, like transmission is expensive. It takes a long time to build. It's complicated in terms of getting all the approvals you're going to need and stuff to do that. And so our first priority actually has to be to try and use our existing infrastructure more efficiently. And in that sense, right now we design our transmission system so that it's able to serve us when we have our highest electricity demand. So, at peak times that it can do that. We're only at peak times for a small amount of time, which means most of the time our transmission system is actually underutilized. So, how do we increase the efficiency with which we use that? That's where we can use a whole range of technologies, distributed energy resources, energy storage, that can help us to shift that peak time, such that we're able to use that transmission resource more fully and more consistently going forward. And we call that non-wires alternatives, in terms of looking at options instead of building up and transmission. And that's going to be really important going forward simply because as we look at the scale of the transformation we need to move towards netzero. We want to do everything we can to reduce costs to go forward and do that. And those distributed energy resources can play a really important role in helping us to reduce those infrastructure costs.   Rebecca Schwartz  14:51 So Robert, how can Canada modernize its electricity, markets and regulatory structures to enable the lowest cost pathway to grid decarbonisation and expansion?   Robert Hornung  15:02 So I think the first thing we have to recognize is that our electricity markets and our and the regulatory structures in the electricity system and regulatory frameworks are really designed for the electricity system of today and of the past. And the electricity system of the future is going to be different than the one of today. And it's going to be different because we have a whole range of disruptive technologies entering the electricity sector, just as we've seen in many other sectors across the economy. And those disruptive technologies are fundamentally transforming our electricity system. We're shifting away from a system which used to be a one-way system where you had a big generators and power over transmission line to a user to a system now where it's a two way system, where users also generate electricity. And so electricity is flowing back and forth across the system. And our regulatory frameworks weren't designed with that in mind. And what we find now is that although these the introduction of these new disruptive technologies, whether it's solar energy storage, or smart grid technologies. The introduction of these different technologies introduces more complexity into the system, but it also increases our options and gives us a much broader range of tools, which we can use to provide the services that we need to have to ensure an efficient and reliable grid. And so when we look forward at how we need to reform electricity markets,and regulatory frameworks in the future, we want to do is we want to capitalize on that, on those new disruptive technologies. And want to remove barriers to their introduction, we want to ensure that they have the opportunity to participate in the electricity system. And then we also want to ensure that we're setting up the system so that there is competition to provide services, and that at the end of the day, you know, if we have five different kinds of technologies from provider liability service, that's great! Let's choose the lowest cost one and move forward. And so it's really a tremendous benefit that we're seeing here. And again, a lot of disruptive technologies we've seen in other sectors are doing the same sort of thing, right. They're providing an opportunity to reduce costs and be more efficient going forward. Same things happening with electricity. And in fact, I would argue that in the electricity sector, you know, our biggest challenge, in some ways is not the technology challenge, in terms of how we can decarbonize the grid and move forward. It's the regulatory challenge and the market framework. And that, in that we have technologies that we can't fully implement, deploy and utilize at this point in time, and that's what we need to adjust.   Dan Seguin  17:43 Now, Robert, you've mentioned that Canada's wind, solar and energy storage industries are up for the challenge, and are eager to start building and delivering significant new capacity required to enable Canada to achieve its netzero goals. What's the next step to kick start this?   Robert Hornung  18:04 Well, I mean, the true answer is there's no single next step. There's a whole series of next steps, right. In terms of moving forward as we outlined in order to do this, but I think a key fundamental one, is putting in place the sort of cornerstone policies, I would call them. The ones that send signals into the marketplace and to investors that say, this is the direction we're moving, you can count on the fact that we're moving in this direction, and therefore you can make investment decisions based on that. And two examples of that: So one is the concept of the clean electricity standard, decarbonizing the grid by 2035. If there's a requirement in place, a legal requirement that the electricity grid is gonna have to be decarbonized by 2035, that sends a very clear signal to investors, we better find the lowest cost way to do that, and you start exploring those options. Carbon pricing is another one. And we have in Canada, we do have a carbon price in place, we've got a direction sort of outlined in terms of where that price is going to 2030. It would be useful to have a longer term perspective on that for investors. And the other thing that's critical is we need to make sure that that carbon price is actually having an impact on decision. So in the electricity sector, specifically, the way the carbon price framework is designed federally, existing natural gas facilities are essentially fully sheltered from the carbon price. So they really have no incentive from the carbon price to actually go and seek greater efficiencies or to consider alternatives. And so we need to ensure I think, within the electricity sector, that if we have a carbon price that everything is exposed to it, and you're getting that signal and that we have clarity as to how that signal is changing over time. I think if we have those fundamental policies in place, then that provides an incentive for people to start thinking about building infrastructure people to start thinking about how we reform regulartory frameworks, those foundational policies sort of get the ball rolling.   Rebecca Schwartz  20:04 Okay, great. So what does a national clean electricity standard even look like? And why is it so important? And can you talk a little bit to some of the biggest barriers for collaboration?   Robert Hornung  20:16 Yeah, I mean it's fundamentally, I guess, at its heart, it's a simple tool. It's setting a standard for electricity generators as to how much greenhouse gas emissions they can emit. And I'm sure that standard will be set in terms of how many, you know how many greenhouse gas emissions you emit per kilowatt hour, megawatt hour of electricity produced, and presumably, it will be designed so that number declines steadily and approaches zero by the time we get to 2035. So, you know, that's the federal government can put in place a standard like that, and it's going to apply across the country. How that's actually implemented, will vary everywhere. Every province has a unique electricity grid, unique set of electricity generation today, a unique set of options for future electricity generation. So the pathway to get to net zero in the electricity grid is going to differ from province to province. We do know that if provinces do more to collaborate, if provinces do more to interconnect their electricity grids, it will provide each of them with more options in terms of trying to move towards net zero. And generally more options means more flexibility and ways to reduce cost. So collaboration in that sense, is quite important in terms of, again, trying to seek out the lowest cost opportunities to meet the objectives that we're setting.   Dan Seguin  21:47 Okay, you touched on this earlier growth. Let's now look at the potential for growth. And are distributed energy resources poised to provide increased opportunities for homeowners and small businesses to demand on site, renewable energy generation. Any examples you could share with us?   22:10 Yeah, well, I mean, to start, I would say that, yes, there's significant potential. I would say actually enormous potential for growth in terms of the distributed energy resources going forward. And I think we see that in terms of the growing number of,businesses and industries that are looking at self generation as an option for electricity going forward. And that's being driven by multiple drivers, it could be driven by environmental commitments, in terms of, you know, corporate commitments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions going forward. It can be driven by economic factors, people looking to avoid a grid electricity costs by sort of producing their own electricity going forward. It could be driven by a desire to increase resiliency, in the event of sort of issues with the grid, that you're still have power and are able to move forward. So I think we see a growing number of companies sort of exploring and seeking out those options. And I think you'll also see a growing number of jurisdictions actually trying to facilitate that going forward. For example, Alberta, earlier this year, issued a program to provide some incentives for businesses to adopt sort of on site solar. They were fully utilized within, I think ,the first three months. There was tremendous demand for them going forward. So I don't think it's a question of if we're going to see distributed energy resources play a significant role. I think it's a question of when we're going to see. And I think the when comes back to these other questions that we talked about. When are we able to remove some of the regulatory barriers that prevent either the deployment of these technologies or the ability to sort of receive economic value for the services those technologies provide to the grid? I think it's also going to require, however, before we can expand and in a large way.  For electricity system operators, it's going to be critical that they have a clear understanding and a sense of what is happening with those distributed energy resources. So, you know, the electricity grid operator has one of the toughest challenges of all trying to ensure that supply and demand is matched all the time and supply and demand are both changing all the time. And if there's a set of generation out there that you don't actually have a vision of and you don't know if it's going up and up, or anything like that, that's a problem. And we need to do some significant infrastructure investment to ensure that electricity system operators have insight into what's actually happening at the distribution level. And also the ability, potentially, to manage what's happening at the at the distribution level. I mean, smart grid technologies, again, are giving us a tremendous capability to say, you know, examples, let's reduce electricity demand by turning everybody's thermostat down by half a degree, or something like that. Those sorts of things. So there's, there's, again, ensuring we've got that infrastructure in place that allows that to take place is going to be critical. But I think if we remove those sorts of barriers and put in place those enablers, you'll see fantastic growth, I think in the sector.   Rebecca Schwartz  22:27 Now, as solar storage and wind power come closest to meeting three key energy, consumer priorities - those being:cost, effectiveness, decarbonisation and reliability- What role will they play with micro grids and self sufficiency? And what's the ultimate renewable energy future that you envision?   Robert Hornung  26:01 I think we're going to see significant growth in these technologies at both the utility scale. So large wind farms, solar farms, and also on the distributed side. And that also includes then within microgrids, and things like that as well. But even though these technologies are going to be core and central, in terms of enabling us to move to net zero, it is part of a broader package. You know, when we're talking about moving to net zero, frankly, the first thing we should be talking about is energy efficiency. And we should be working to ensure that we minimize the amount of energy that we actually need in the first place. Then once we've done that, we think okay, well, then let's use the lowest cost, non emitting energy we can. And that's where wind and solar are going to come in and play a significant role in that regard. But then, again, you're going to say, 'okay, well, how are we going to manage that?' Well, we'll need other technologies like the smart grid technologies that allow us to effectively integrate wind and solar and ensure reliability of the grid going forward, because wind and solar are variable sources of generation. They add, again, some more complexity for system operators in terms of how we do this. And we need technologies in place that can help to facilitate that. So you know, we've talked already about the fact that the future electricity system is going to look pretty different from the electricity system of today. But at the end of the day, I guess in terms of a vision of it, I think renewables will be at the heart of that system for for two reasons. One is the scalability of the technologies themselves. You can actually have a single wind turbine, or a single solar panel, or a giant wind farm or solar farm, so they can be applied in all of these different applications. Their cost - So we've seen a 90% decline in the cost of solar. In the last decade, we've seen a 70% decline in the cost of wind in the last decade. It's not going to continue down at that rate going forward, we do expect to see some more cost declines. But there's absolutely no one out there who will say there's going to be something cheaper that comes along as we move towards 2050. And that's why it's going to again, play a pretty central role in terms of us moving forward. So, I as I said before, I think these technologies will be the core and the heart of the new electricity system going forward. But they aren't the whole story. We still need those technologies to partner with other technologies to enable and ensure that we're providing an electricity system that's reliable, and affordable and clean.   Dan Seguin  28:37 Okay, now, let's tackle something we haven't covered yet. How about we take a look at job creation? Robert, with these investments in wind, energy, solar energy and energy storage, create significant employment opportunities in Canada? Where do you foresee the biggest gains?   Robert Hornung  28:59 Yeah, when we did our mini vision document, or sorry, our vision document, vision 2050 document, we determined that if you were to increase wind and solar energy production tenfold over the next 30 years, that would create about 28,000 direct and indirect person years of employment annually. So, it's over 800,000 over the over the 30 year period. Now, many of those jobs are in the construction of facilities. So they're not permanent jobs, their jobs that are associated in construction. You do also create a significant number of jobs in operation of those facilities going forward. And again, you know, the job creation potential of the technology space differs a little bit by application as well. Where you're going to see the most jobs created, at least on a per megawatt basis, we'll be with distributed solar. And some studies done recently that have argued that for every megawatt of distributed solar generation that you put in place, you create about 35% person years of employment, so there is significant job creation potential associated with these technologies. We also have, as a country, some significant opportunities associated with these technologies as well. We're starting from pretty strong place globally, more than 80% of Canada's electricity is already non emitting. So we've got a good head start on much of the rest of the world, if we can move quickly to get to 100%. Non emitting, we'll have gained knowledge and expertise that will be sought around the world, because everybody's gonna have to move in this direction. The other thing is that our nearest neighbor, the United States, is going to be challenged to move to net zero, their electricity grid is much more carbon intensive than ours. And the export of clean Canadian electricity could also play a very significant role in helping the United States to meet its goals and objectives. So there are economic opportunities associated with that as well. So really, we've got a tremendous resource that's untapped for the most part across the country. One of the great things about wind and solar is that it's actually available in every part of the country. So not restricted to a certain province. So there are opportunities really across the country for economic growth and development. And because these are decentralized technologies, these opportunities will also play out at the level of communities across the country. And, you know, we've see a growing number of municipalities and communities with an interest in being partners in renewable energy projects going forward in seeing these projects, built to meet their own objectives, but also to secure the economic benefits associated with those projects. So it's a really tremendous opportunity.   Rebecca Schwartz  31:42 All right, Robert, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions? Are you ready? All right. Now, Robert, what's your favorite word?   Rebecca Schwartz  31:54 Chocolate? Because it's a word that always makes me smile.   Rebecca Schwartz  31:57 What is one thing you can't live without?   Robert Hornung  31:59 My family. It's actually the most important thing in my life, ao I would say that.   Robert Hornung  32:03 What's something that challenges you?   Robert Hornung  32:04 I would say something, which I guess probably most people would say is that it's finding the balance between competing priorities, it's a challenge everyday.   Rebecca Schwartz  32:15 Okay, now, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?   Robert Hornung  32:19 The ability to heal people.   Rebecca Schwartz  32:21 And if you could turn back time, talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell them?   Robert Hornung  32:26 Don't be stressed about what you're doing when you're 30. Because you're inevitably going to get it wrong, and have faith that you're going to find your path. And that it's going to be informed by a bunch of things you haven't even thought of yet.   Rebecca Schwartz  32:42 Okay, this is the last one. What is exciting you about the renewable energy industry right now?   Robert Hornung  32:48 The potential! I mean, its potential is enormous. And, but, you know, it's, it really does require us to get started now, to sort of capitalize on that. And so, you know, one of the things in our in our vision document, you know, we sort of conclude by saying that the time to act is now and we need to act together. And that's true, whether it's between federal and provincial governments, provincial and municipal governments, different technologies. We've got a massive challenge in front of us. We've got all the reasons in the world to succeed and meeting that challenge. And we need to get started yesterday.   Dan Seguin  33:29 Well, Robert, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thick energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, and your organization, how can they connect.   Robert Hornung  33:41 So you can visit our website, which is renewablesassociation.ca. And on that website, you'll also be able to download a copy of our vision document and see, you know, sort of what our thoughts are on on the role that wind, solar and energy storage are going to play in helping Canada to move to net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. Dan Seguin  34:05 Cool. Again, thank you for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.   Robert Hornung  34:10 That was fun. Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity.   Dan Seguin  34:14 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review whereever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.    

Ottawa’s energy ecosystem is unique, with long-standing localized and green generation. In fact, did you know Hydro Ottawa is the largest municipally-owned producer of clean, renewable energy in Canada? Bryce Conrad, Hydro Ottawa President and CEO, joins Dan and Rebecca to discuss the company’s commitment to making its entire operations net zero by 2030. Related links LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryce-conrad-2ab1b352/ https://hydroottawa.com Check out our new Think Energy Podcast website To subscribe using Apple Podcasts To subscribe using Spotify: To subscribe on Libsyn: --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube Podcast Library Keep up with the Tweets at Think Energy Twitter Check out our cool pics on Instagram More to Learn on Facebook Transcript:   Dan Seguin  00:06 This is the energy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.   Dan Seguin  00:30 Hey, everyone, welcome back.   Rebecca Schwartz  00:32 To refresh our listeners, or in case they missed it in December, our organization Hydro Ottawa announced that it will make its entire operations net zero by the time 2030 rolls around. And by my calculations, that's only eight years away. In order to achieve net zero, you have to remove as much greenhouse gas emissions or more than you're currently putting into the atmosphere.   Dan Seguin  00:54 Now, to put it into further perspective, Ottawa's electricity grid stretches 1100 square kilometers. It's essentially Ottawa's largest machine. Add to that our fleet of bucket trucks and other vehicles, various work centers across the city and more than 700 employees, you start to realize that this is no small endeavor.   Rebecca Schwartz  01:23 Our President and CEO likes to call it our moonshot after the Apollo 11 mission where we sent a man to the moon in the 1960s.   Dan Seguin  01:31 Actually, the timeline to achieve both is pretty similar. President Kennedy announced his ambitious goal to Congress in 1961. By 1969, a man was on the surface of the moon. In those short, eight years, it must have seemed impossible to many.   Rebecca Schwartz  01:54 While Canada's putting as much pollution into the atmosphere, unfortunately, as it did a generation ago- 730 million tons to be exact. Canada's electricity industry is one of the cleanest in the world. In fact, 80% of the electricity in Canada comes from non emitting resources.   Dan Seguin  02:11 And Ontario's electricity sector is even more impressive. With 94% of its electricity we produce completely free of greenhouse gas emissions, some experts say that fully decarbonizing the electricity industry will be the key climate change solution for Canada.   Rebecca Schwartz  02:31 Here's today's big question. What will it take to get Hydro Ottawa to net zero by 2030? And what inspired the decision to be the first municipally owned utility in Canada to do it? We've been building an impressive resume here at Hydro Ottawa when it comes to environmental sustainability. Most recently, we even won the Canadian Electricity Association's Sustainability Electricity Company Designation in 2021. But we'll get into all of that with our special guest later today.   Dan Seguin  02:59 Bryce Conrad has been the President and CEO of Hydro Ottawa since 2011. Under his leadership, Hydro Ottawa has become one of the most innovative utilities in Canada, regularly winning awards and accolades for its customer oriented services and its commitment to environmental sustainability. It is the largest municipally owned producer of clean, renewable energy in Ontario. He's also my boss, Bryce, welcome to the show. Now Hydro Ottawa recently made a net zero by 2030 commitment, and there's a lot of momentum in that direction in corporate Canada. Generally, what's your view on its importance? What makes for truly credible and meaningful net zero commitment?   Bryce Conrad  03:53 Collectively, we, as a society, have been talking about this for, quite frankly, too long. I mean, when I did this presentation to the board, any reference back to Kyoto and the Kyoto protocols, and then Paris, Montreal, I mean, every four or five years, they get around to having another meeting and collectively agreed to do something, but never do anything. So there's a whole lot of talk and nothing else much. So, from our perspective, as a company, it's time to start taking responsibility for our own house, and the impact that we have collectively on our own environments. That we can and will do better, that we can be part of the solution. And, I'd say this, as someone who spent time in the federal government, who's worked 15 years working in federal provincial relations. I mean, the answer to climate change is not going to come from some magical central government telling us what to do or what not to do. It's not going to come from a provincial government. The solutions are going to be local, they're going to come from the ground up, and they're going to be you and me doing the right thing each and every day. Changing our own behavior, recognizing that the behavior, that the path that we're on today is unsustainable, and being willing to make those changes. I love the idea that there's still some expectation that there is going to be some sort of savior that's going to come in and fix everything for us. And if you look at Jeff Bezos, you look at Elon Musk, I mean, the two wealthiest men in the world and they're trying to get off the planet faster than they can stay on the planet. So, by building rocket ships and stuff, so the answer is not there. What I do like about this time, what I do think is different this time, is, for the first time, at least from my perception, the first time is that it's not simply going to be the government's making commitments. You're actually starting to see the private sector come to the table with money and solutions. When you see people like Larry Fink, and you see OMERS, in the big pension funds, and the big banks, the big insurance companies - When you start seeing these massive multibillion dollar business, stepping up to the table and saying, we're gonna put our money where our mouth is, and we're gonna start to change behavior. That's kind of special. That's the secret sauce, it's necessary to solve this problem. And the perfect example, and I've used this before, and I'll use it again, is the largest public sector pension fund in the world, is a Norwegian pension fund, which effectively is the Canada Pension Fund for Norwegians. And they've got 1.6 $1.8 trillion under management. And the source of that funds, the genesis of that fund was essentially selling the offshore oil rights for Norwegian oil development in the North Sea. And now they're saying we no longer will invest in companies that produce fossil fuel. So, isn't it ironic that a company that a pension fund, the largest in the world, that's sourced began via fossil fuel money is now turning their attention to green technologies? That's new. That's different. That's something we haven't seen before.   Dan Seguin  07:49 Okay, here's a follow up question. Can you maybe expand on what you mean, when you say net zero is our 'moonshot'? What is behind the comparison of the Apollo 11 mission that inspired you? So on YouTube, you can go back and dial up all these old speeches and watch them and watch them anew. But look, if you go back to JFK in 1961, so he does this speech before for the joint House and Senate. And, it's not a long speech. So I'd encourage everyone to go watch it. There's, it's about a minute long, the clip that that's relevant anyway. And in that speech, he says, we are going to go to the moon before the end of the decade. So he's doing this in '61. Obviously, they went to the moon 69. So as part of that, he does something that people don't do enough of these days, right, he literally says - We're going to go to the moon. So that's our objective. And I have no idea how we're going to get there. I'm paraphrasing, obviously, I have no idea how we're going to get there, the technology doesn't exist, the fuel doesn't exist, the booster rocket technology doesn't exist. And that kind of the capsule necessary to get someone to and from the moon doesn't exist today. So he's making this bold announcement without having,  and then acknowledging that he doesn't know how they're going to do it. And, and I thought that's just so, quite frankly, refreshing in this day and age where everything is kind of pre packaged, right. Like, we know what we're going to do this next two years, but we already know that we've got it in the bag, and here's how it's going to be done. I like the idea of setting the big, hairy, audacious goal for the company and saying, I've said this to the management team. I have no clue how we're gonna get there. I don't know. Like, I I know what we need to start doing. But I don't know what the answer is. But I work with some of the smartest people in the game and I know that if they're empowered to do this, and we put our minds to this, we will do this. Like, that's what Kennedy counted on '61. And that's lo and behold what happened. So, when I liken it to the moonshot, it's just that- it's the it's the big, hairy, audacious goal, without any real clear roadmap as to how to accomplish that goal. And I think quite frankly, that's what served us best is when we don't necessarily have the answers, we have to make up. We have to figure our way through this stuff. And I see that every day of the company, right? If you look back at what we how we handle the tornadoes, if you look back at the way we handle the floods, if you look at the way we handle our system. Yeah, there's a lot of prescriptive stuff. Yes, there's a lot of this is how we do things. But there are a lot of days we throw out the rulebook, you throw out the manual, and you have to figure your way forward. And that's when this company is at its best. So, that's the that's the moonshot.   Rebecca Schwartz  10:53 Now, how concerned are you about climate change and environmental damage? What does the energy transition mean for Hydro Ottawa as it exists today, and for you personally, as we look to the future?   Bryce Conrad  11:05  So let's just state categorically that climate change is real. As I sit here, today, it's like minus 27,000 degrees outside. People go 'oh if it is global warming why is it so damn cold', and of course, you just want to smack people that say things like that. But, God's honest truth is climate change is not about the day to day weather, it's about weather patterns. It's about how, in the past, we've had wind storms and ice storms, we've had eight tornadoes, including one in downtown to Nepean. We've had a one in 100 year flood, followed by a one in 1000 year flood. We've had heat waves that have stretched and taxed our system. And all of this is just like, quite frankly, within the past five years. So that's what climate change means. It means unpredictable, changing, dramatically changing weather patterns. And if you run a utility, like I do, or like we do,you don't like that. You know, our infrastructure is built to withstand X. It's not built to withstand x plus 30%, or x plus 50%. So, you know, when a windstorm comes through, you know, the infrastructure is ready to sustain winds up to 90 miles an hour or something like that? Well, you know, we all saw what happened when tornadoes came through, you know, 130 miles, or 160 miles an hour, right? Those poles snap like twigs. That's what climate change means. So, you know, it's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying. And you know, it's something that we have to start to build into our plans as to how do we build better in the future? So are we building our infrastructure to withstand 90 mile an hour winds? Are we building them to withstand 150 mile an hour winds? Well, there's a cost difference to that. Obviously, the answer is, yeah, we've got to do a better job of building stronger, more resilient infrastructure. If you saw during the floods, our Chaudiere facility, our generating asset, Chaudiere Falls. You know, you were seeing for the first time in history, all 50 of the gates of the ring dam were open. I mean, and there was more, I think it was two Olympic swimming pools passing through the gates every second. The waterfall, the water, the speed, and the waterfall was faster than the Niagara Falls, like, I mean, these are things that shouldn't be happening in downtown Ottawa, but have happened, you know, three times since I've been here. And that's 10 years. So if anyone wants to have a debate about whether or not climate change is real, call me up. Let's have that conversation. Because it's, it's very real, and it's going to dramatically impact our future. In terms of the energy transition, I think I talked a bit about it. But, you know, when we bottomed out, and look at what our future looks like, 50 years from now, our infrastructure looks fundamentally different than it does today. It's in fundamentally different places than it is today. You know, we're gonna rely upon artificial intelligence, machine learning. You know, each and every one of those, like, everything will be censored up. So, you know, the idea is that, as opposed to us rolling a truck to fix something that's broken or down, we can sort of simply reroute it from the control center. So yes, we still have to get out there and fix what's broken but for you, the customer of Hydro Ottawa, you actually won't notice the impact because the power will have switched over to another source instantaneously. That's the goal. I think, you know, you'll see more and more people, and I've been telling people this for 10 years, right? The day in and the age of, you know, my grandmother who used to sort of wait patiently in the mailbox for the bill to come in so she could open it up that day, write a check, and put it back in the mailbox the next day. Those days are gone. And those people are gone. The people that are our customers today, they want to interact, they want more, they want to understand how they can measure utility, they want to understand how they can manage their energy consumption. Particularly if you start to put the onus on them with respect to climate change and what they're doing. So they're going to want to know, like, you know, do I plug my electric car in? If I plug it in? Now? You know, do I wait and charge it between two and 4am? Or do I charge it now? You know, can I charge my house with my car, you know, they're going to be part of this and will be part of the solution. But they're also gonna have expectations of us as a provider to be transparent, authentic, reliable, managing the costs. So that energy transition is going to be huge for us. And it's only going to get more complicated. And I haven't even talked about the downside, right? I mean, the more you open the kimono, and you allow the customers to sort of engage with you directly, the more opportunity you're giving for nefarious actors to sort of engage in the things that we don't want to be happening, things like cybersecurity.   Dan Seguin  16:54 Okay, let's talk energy now, Bryce. We've got an interesting energy ecosystem here in Ottawa with long standing localized and green generation. We had distributed energy resources before it was a thing. Is there a model here that can be applied more broadly?   Bryce Conrad  17:13 Yeah, you know what, so I always like to think that Hydro Ottawa was at the cutting edge of these sorts of things. So, we were doing distributed energy resources before for the term for it. We were cool before we knew it was cool. So short answer, yeah, we've got massive generating assets in our backyard, which theoretically, can be used as distributed energy resources. As we go forward, my expectation is that. And I'd be the first to admit that having Chaudiere and the big generating assets is a massive advantage for the company. But, where we haven't done so well with our customers is with respect to some of the other DER activity. Like, the local homeowner that wants to put up solar, solar panels and stuff like that. And the God's honest truth is, those little installations are a real pain. They're a pain to manage. They're all kind of one-offs. Every one of them is individualized, everyone requires a lot of time and attention. But that's not the right answer. The right answer is we should be treating these things as gifts. We should be doing everything in our power to support them and roll them out even further. So, my expectation is over the course of the next 5-10 years, you're going to see us serve as a catalyst role for further DERs in the community. So that's the first one I would say is if you're waiting to install solar panels, or you need to - you want t- - give us a call, we're here to help you support it. But one of the projects that I think stands out is kind of unique, certainly in Canada, and one that we're particularly proud of, just given the role we played, is down at the Zibi community. Which is, for those who don't know, sort of, well, it's on an island. No man's land between the two provinces. So half of it is in Quebec, the other half is in Ontario. Andthe developer down there, kudos to them. They are partners in dream properties, I guess, four or five years ago, six years ago with the idea of using these developments, which is 34 acres on the waterfront and turning it into a one planet, one world kind of community where it's zero carbon. You know, they could have just asked us to run pipe or run power lines, but we thought, here's an opportunity for us to get in on the ground and see how this actually works. So it's up, it's running, condos are being built for people living there today. There's the heat and cooling - the heat coming from effluent discharge under the Kruger paper plant over on the Gatineau side. So. essentially this is a waste product that's being pumped back into the pipes so we can heat the homes. Conversely, in the summer they're using the Ottawa River to sort of cool it. And again, it's it's a real, full scale model of what a zero carbon energy system would look like. And there's no reason you can't take that same model and apply it on a broader scale and even broader scale. Which is something that we're keen to replicate where, if and when we get the opportunity, but it's truly unique and we're quite proud of it. Again, we got in on the ground floor and said, this is something that we're interested in, so how can we help you. And full credit to the development team, they saw the opportunity to work with us and gave us an opportunity.   Dan Seguin  21:22 Now, a lot of focus is on national targets. But here in Ottawa, we see a central role for ourselves in working with the city, customers, and other stakeholders to help drive down emissions. How much of climate action needs to be local? How important do you see Hydro Ottawa's role being to affect change?   Bryce Conrad  21:46 Yeah, well, like I said earlier, I think if we're going to stand around waiting for the Federal government or the province, or some other larger national entity, to sort of tell us how to solve this problem, I think we'll still be standing around waiting for a few years. So, my perception is that all politics is local. And that the solution to this problem is local. And I just gave you an example of the Zibi community,  where that is a local project that has been done. It's been done locally, not because someone said at the Government of Canada," thou shalt build a zero carbon community". They did it because it was the right thing to do. And they felt they could do it in that environment. Again, no direction from the feds of the province. It was purely local. So the answer, as I said, is local. It's going to be local, it's going to be you and me and Rebecca, and everybody else coming up and making decisions on our own, that we want to leave this place in a better place for our kids. It's that little expression, ou Chair reminds me a lot on a daily basis. You know, leave the campsite in a better place than you found it kind of thing, right! So, that's our goal. That's, that's my goal coming to Hydro Ottawa was to leave the company in a better place that I found it. That should be our collective goals. So, the City of Ottawa has declared a climate emergency, they have announced their targets, they're ramping up a series of climate change initiatives to meet those targets. Our job is to support them, they're our shareholders. So, if we can bring our money, our expertise, to help support them deploying carbon free energy solutions, or just things that can help curb carbon, then that's what we'll do. I think we've got a pretty good track record, quite frankly, the fact that we've announced that we're going to be carbon neutral by 2030 is one thing to say, but we're doing it and we're on our way.  And that garnered the attention of other organizations in town who were saying, well, if Hydro Ottawa was going to do this, maybe they can help us do the same thing. Now, is 2030 an audacious goal for some of them? Yeah, it's probably unrealistic for some but, the point is, at least we're doing it and obviously it would be inconceivable for the City of Ottawa model to get there by 2030. But isn't it nice to know that they can count on a partner that is going to be carbon neutral by 2030 to help them achieve their objectives going forward? So look, we're an innovative company. We're the largest producer of green renewable energy in Canada. We've got a first rate utility, and we've got an energy solutions company that's there to support our customers, our businesses, and our shareholders. And we will deploy all three to that benefit. So, I think my expectation is that as we go into this next municipal election, climate change  will be -if it's not going to be number one or number two, on the agenda, I'll be shocked. Like, I honestly think it's risen to that level of importance for the citizens of Ottawa. So yeah, taxes are always there, but I think climate change is going to be right up there with it.   Rebecca Schwartz  25:33 So Bryce, as you know, we're in the distinctive position at Hydro Ottawa of having cross border assets in Ontario, Quebec and New York. How important is it that Canada's electricity system, as a whole, becomes more integrated across provincial boundaries? And what key steps can we expect will be taken in that direction?   Rebecca Schwartz  25:53 Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a great question, Rebecca. And I think what people don't really appreciate is just how, how amazing the electricity grid actually is. It is a fully integrated machine that works from one side of the continent to the other side. I mean, it's just truly magical that you can sort of walk into your room and turn on a light 99.999% of the time and that lights are gonna come on. And that's a credit to the people that built the system in the first place. So, the good news is that it is a fully integrated grid, Canada - US. Unfortunately, it's a little too north-south for my liking at the moment. Most of the grid runs north-south. So, power gets bought and transferred between Quebec and Manitoba. But, if you look at sort of the large clean energy supplies coming out of Quebec, most of them are directed south, into the US for export markets. Going forward, that's obviously going to have to change. Canada is capable. If you look at the Ontario grid, we're 90%, clean and green. When you look at something like Saskatchewan, or Nova Scotia or Alberta, which still heavily reliant on coal or natural gas or other fossil fuels, the answer is we have to share amongst our brotherhood, so that we have to get that clean power from Quebec and Ontario and British Columbia going east- west. And I should say, Yukon, Northwest Territories the same way- but access to more difficult but still access to sort of clean, green renewable. The point, that system has to sort of be brought to bear on a national level, so that the inter ties between Ontario and Quebec are more plentiful. The power gets shifted into Nova Scotia, so that we can, so that our energy system can be truly clean and green. And it shouldn't take that long. Unfortunately, what's gonna get in the middle of that is your classic nimbyism, right. Where no one wants to build or  have these transmission lines running through their backyard kind of thing, for obvious reasons. But we built the railroad and the railboard built the country, St. Lawrence Seaway. We've done some,incredibly impressive things from an infrastructure perspective, and I just think that's the answer going forward. We need to sort of build that infrastructure at a national level. So that, again, the power from Churchill Falls is flowing to Regina. And in Edmonton and Calgary and, yeah, that's my answer.   Dan Seguin  28:49 Okay, let's talk capacity. Getting to net zero by 2050 will mean roughly doubling clean electricity production in Canada. By one estimate, that's clean energy Canada. What do we need to be doing today to make that achievable?   Bryce Conrad  29:08 Well, again, the first step in the 12 step program is admitting that you have a problem. So, we have a problem. If you just step back and look at the politics, we can't build a pipeline in this country to save our lives. Now, whether you think that's the right thing or not, it's, it's a proxy for what's necessary. So okay, we're not going to build a pipeline, but you need to build big transmission lines east to west or west east or vice versa. So yeah, if you're gonna double the electricity, the clean electrical energy, which  is eminently doable. We've got plenty of sources and we've got lots of supply, we've got more thatwe can tap. You just need to sort of start to work together, collectively. Province to province, federal government with the provinces, to sort of make this happen. And again, I have hopes, because at the end of the day we're one country, we built some amazing infrastructure - the St. Lawrence Seaway is a perfect example. And, you know, the rail lines, we've done this stuff before. There's no reason we can't do it again. Faced with a face of the future where the costs of climate change are real. And they're only getting higher on an annual basis. It's only a matter of time before the politicians wake up and realize that this is the solution, and they have to do something, and they have to act. And it's in our best interest to do so as a nation. So, I'm hopeful.   Dan Seguin  30:55 Now, Bryce, I'm curious, what are the three most innovative sustainability projects that you're most proud of right now? That maybe people don't know Hydro Ottawa is doing or involved with?   Bryce Conrad  31:10 Sure. I can probably give you four. And I know, yes, you asked for three. But I'll give you four! The first, that I don't think people fully appreciate, is how significant our generating assets actually are. We're not talking about small run of the mill, solar facilities, we're talking about large, 150 megawatts of clean green, renewable energy - on both sides of the border, capable of powering well over 100,000 homes. We've grown that production by 500% since 2012. So we are a real player in this business. And these are assets that are carbon free. So, talking about future proofing your generating fleet, right, these are the things that everybody's gonna want when they realize that there is no such thing as clean coal. Or when they realize that fossil fuels are not the answer going forward. So, we have these assets and they're spectacular. And I'd encourage anybody in Ottawa, if you want to see some of them in action, to go check out the ones at Chaudiere Falls, which are a dam. Rebecca, I'm not sure if you've seen it but Dan sure has. I mean, just breathtaking to watch, particularly in the summer  -wouldn't go there today when it's minus 12,000 degrees because the wind coming off would be horrifying -but lovely in the sun. If you wait for Bluesfest, there's no better place to listen to the music than Chaudiere Falls! You get all the benefits of Bluesfest without paying or dealing with crowds. Anyway, so that's number one, our generating fleet. Number two is the thing I spoke about earlier, the Zibi community funding. Again, 34 acres of prime development down there, carbon free, and we were part of that solution to make it happen. And hoping to replicate it making bigger, better elsewhere. But just taking something which was otherwise a science project or a concept and sort of bringing it to reality, something that we're immensely proud of. And I think Ottawans will be as well. The third, just because my kids love it, is we've got this, this new substation going out, or transformer station going out in south Ottawa in the Barrhaven area, which is growing like a weed, obviously. With 10 or 12% growth every year. So, we had to build the new station out there. And we bought the necessary land for the station. It's called Cambrian station. It's going online sometime between now and June, I think. In fact, it's being tested as I speak. But the point is, we bought enough land up there that we've been able to donate 15 acres for a pollinator meadow to bring back the butterflies and plant some trees. So again, no real cost to us other than the land that was used that we bought for the transformer station itself. But here's another opportunity for us to do the right thing. And last but not least, the fourth one, which I'm very proud of is the role that we played in the conversion of the streetlights. So, Ottawa had high pressure sodium street lights, like every other municipality. And over the course of four years, we were able to convert all 56,000 lights to LEDs, saving the city a massive amount of money somewhere in the range of $6 million a year. And those are continuous savings, right? So, that's right to the bottom line. So these are street lights that are better, they're all IP addressable so, if the Sens win the Stanley Cup, we can flash red and white, whatever we want. The point is, they're good for a long time. And those energy savings will pay for them. Well, they already paid for the project once over already! Now, all the savings go right through to the taxpayer, so I am very proud of us.   Rebecca Schwartz  35:42 Another thing we're doing is targeting an entirely non emitting grid by 2035. What sort of changes will that mean for electricity, utilities and customers?   Rebecca Schwartz  35:52 Yeah, this is going back to the moonshot, Rebecca. In the sense that we're talking about it. And obviously, we're committing to do these sorts of things, but we don't necessarily have a clear cut perspective on how it's going to be done. So look, as I said earlier, in Ontario, the grids 92%, clean and green right now. The other 8% is natural gas. So yeah, we need to turn the grid into an automated grid by 2035. utilities like ourselves are going to have to invest in trying to find ways of managing line losses and just transmission. You know, the transmission of electricity from point A to point B emits ghgs, and that needs to be curtailed. So how do you do that? Well, I mean, there's technology that hopefully we brought to bear. I mean, today's minds are better than the lions 10-15 years ago. So I mean, I think the answer there is going to be technological change. The good news is we have a lot of smart, smart, smart people. Both academically within utilities, within the association's working on trying to solve this problem. But yeah, it' a challenge for us. And I don't necessarily have the right answer. I don't have an answer for you right now. As I explained to my Board, the iPhone is 12 years old this year. So, imagine what life -think back to where we were in 2008. I can't even imagine what my life, what our lives would be like if we didn't have an iPhone in our pocket, right? So, that's a technological change. That's made a fundamental difference in our life and in our society. Some good, some bad. But surely, the hope is that technological change will help us get to an automated grid by 2035 in an affordable way.   Dan Seguin  38:05 Now back in 2019, Hydro Ottawa opened its new office building, centralizing your operations, while ensuring a new building with a greener footprint. Can you tell us about this decision to move and how you've incorporated sustainability into your building operations?   Bryce Conrad  38:24 I joined Hydro Ottawa on August 15 2011. On August 16th 2011, we had a Board meeting, where they authorized the company to move forward with what is called ubiquitously The Real Estate Strategy. Which was effectively:  Look, you know, as a result of amalgamation we had buildings all over the place. We inherited Gloucester Hydro, Ottawa Hydro, Nepean Hydro and Kanata Hydro. So, we had all these buildings all over the place that we inherited. Some of them were in pretty good shape, others were absolute pig. Thinking of the one at Albion road would be the prime example. The point was there, they were in all the wrong places from an operational perspective. They were just in the wrong place. So we developed a plan and a strategy to sort of recapitalize our buildings, and we knew that, quite frankly, for every dollar I spent on Albion road, it was $1. I lost, because the value is not in the building, the value is in the land. I use the term value loosely. We made that decision and the Board exported it, the Ontario Energy Board, as part of our applications, endorsed the idea that we needed new facilities.So we launched the plan in 2014 with a couple of stutter steps along the way, trying to find the right lands. Finally we landed on the right places for us as a company. If you look at our headquarters we built, we opened in 2019. All the new buildings are built to LEED Gold standards. Both facilities have significant on site renewable energy, they have solar facilities on sites. We didn't want them to be ostentatious or flashy, we wanted them to be functional. We want them to be low maintenance to the extent that we possibly could. We wanted to do what we could on our GHGs and also environmentalism. And that came directly from our employees. As we're doing the builds and designing, we're constantly reaching into our workforce to see what was important to them, what they want to see. One of the things everybody obviously wants to light. So, if you've been to the facilities, you know they're wide open, everybody has access to fresh, good quality air. Everyone has access to daylight for the most part. So they actually turned out fantastic. It's exactly what we want. So, we installed a whole bunch of different environmental things. Solar solar charging stations at our headquarters, we've got electrical charging stations at the headquarters, we've got a lot of reduction facilities in place. So I think we're using 55 or 60% less water than we otherwise used to. We use the gray water return that gets used back into the gardens and stuff like that. I think we're diverting 90-95% of our non hazardous waste. Our kitchen supplier has  access to a dehydrator which allows them to dehydrate the food waste, reduce, and to use it as compost. From the design perspective, health and wellness was factored into it from day one. So we've got a, I wouldn't say world class gym facility, but it's pretty damn good. Got lots of ergonomically designed workspaces, the meeting rooms are flexible, we've got collaboration spaces everywhere. So the whole point was, I think Steve Jobs used to refer to them as collision points, where an employee could walk would bump into another employee and an idea would germinate. That's kind of the way we built the place. So throughout the building, there's collaboration spaces, both inside and outside. We've even got a walking path on our property. So, all of those have been done because we're the right things to do. They were the right things to do now. Post pandemic, or in the middle of a pandemic, I will tell you, all these open spaces are not our friends. There are points where you'd like to put up some walls again and close the doors, but it is what it is. And we'll get past this and get back to normal. And we'll be happy with what we got.But, facilities are great!  We love them.  I honestly haven't heard anybody complain about facilities which if you work in the utility industry is shocking.   Rebecca Schwartz  43:47 It seems every couple of months, we're hearing about an innovative new example of electrification of other economic sectors. Here in Ottawa, we're seeing multiple modes of public transportation transitioning to electric, for example: e scooters - Which I have to say, I use a lot in our super fun - to everything else, such as chainsaws and lawn mowers seem to be up for grabs when it comes to electrification. What's the coolest example of electrification that you've come across Bryce?   Bryce Conrad  44:18 I got like 15 answers to this one. So I love those electric scooters. I used them for the first time when I was in San Diego, whipping along the waterfront in San Diego on an electric scooter was one of the coolest things in the world. Of course I didn't look so graceful I fell, but so be it. So those are really cool. I've seen electric surfboards, which I think are really cool, too. I'm terrified to even conceive of how to get on one, but it's this kind of a wakeboard that you get elevated up in the air. So, you're you're surfing on top of the water, and it's purely electric powered, but that looks pretty cool. My neighbor here has one. I'm jealous when I see him out there on it. But honestly, the coolest one, quite frankly, is still the cars. There used to be a car that came out of the US military, it was called a Hummer. And Arnold Schwarzenegger, when he was governor of California, had a Hummer and he made his electric. A great personal expense to him, I'm sure. But these are cars that have a massive big V 12 engine. When you turn on the gas, and you turn the car on, you could literally see the ozone layer deplete behind you, that's how much these things were. And they were just pigs on gas. I don't even know whether they would get up to a gallon, probably like three kilometers to a gallon of gas back in the day. But they were just enormous. And so much like everything else, they went the way in the dodo bird, they got sold off and then shut down. Well, then lo and behold, they're coming back. So 2022, is the first year of the electric Hummer. And it is 1000 horsepower, it weighs 10,000 pounds, or close to 10,000 pounds. Tt goes zero to 60 in 2.8 seconds. And again, it weighs 10,000 pounds!  Like it's amazing what they're capable of doing. It's going to have a range of 580 kilometers or whatever, whatever it will be. But just the sheer improvements in these electric vehicles is -  I mean, Dan knows he's got two of them! - But we're a long way from when these first electric cars came out. Hydro Ottawa I had one of the very first electric cars and I would tell you, you know, cuz I used to park next to it in the garage. There would be weeks that go by where I wouldn't see that car because it was in the garage being fixed or something was wrong. I drove it one day and my teenage daughter who's probably 13 at the time, was in the backseat thinking she's really cramped in the backseat, because the whole damn thing is a big battery. So you just think about where that car was relative to the cars that we're seeing out there today. And I'm not even talking about the Tesla's, I'm talking about, you know, the Hyundai's  and sort of the traditional car makers, and the efforts that they're making in the space. Like, it's truly exceptional what they're doing and full credit to them. Dan referenced the Audi electric e tron, I mean, it's the coolest car in the world! And all these cars are just incredible. So my answer is yeah, as I was saying with the e-scooters, at least I don't fall out of my car!   Dan Seguin  48:01 With Hydro Ottawa customers, making it very clear that climate change is important to them and they want you to continue being part of the solution and pushing the organization to do more. How are you planning to assist customers in reducing their carbon footprint?   Bryce Conrad  48:21 It's a great question. And it'spart of the moonshot, right. I don't actually know what they need until, until we start dialing this in and getting a workout. But what I know is that they want to interact with this differently. They want information, they want access to information in a way that nobody else has ever asked us, right? They are interactive. It used to be that the average Canadian thought of their electrical company, nine minutes a year, when they're paying the bills. That's not the case anymore. When they're making decisions with respect to appliances, they're thinking about their consumption, and they're making decisions with respect to their cars and they're calling us. One of our affiliates, Envari, one of the services we offer is electric vehicle readiness assessments for small commercial and condo buildings. Because for example for Dan to live in his house and install car chargers, no problem. But if you're living in a condo corporation with 400 units, how do you build out the electric car charging asset? Is a bill to the house to the person that owns the electric car? Or are they sort of shared resources? So I mean, these are some of the challenges that we're dealing with and our customers are dealing with firsthand. So, our job is to help. Our job is to try to help navigate those issues and concerns and provide them with the information. And sometimes they'll make the right decision. Sometimes they'll make the wrong decision, but at least they're making an informed decision if nothing else. So that's an example. The electric bus initiative here in Ottawa, is another one that we're quite proud of. We're gonna partner with the City of Ottawa to sort of deploy and roll out 400+ electric vehicle buses. So if you've ever seen these buses, I mean, they are sleek, they are noiseless. They are, quite frankly, enjoyable to ride. You don't have that diesel smell, that's everywhere. You're not on Slater street looking down a canyon of diesel spewing buses anymore. So, those are all the things that we're going to do to help our community and our customers. And quite frankly, they're probably 15,000 other things that we're going to be doing as we get into this fight.  As we get into this and start climbing this challenge or responding to this challenge, we're going to find other things that they're going to want. And what I do know is that we've got a good brand, we've got social license within our community. If they are going to turn to anybody, they are going to turn to us for solutions, and it's our job to help them.   Rebecca Schwartz  50:58 So Bryce, as a community asset, will Hydro Ottawa pursue netzero, outside the confines of its own operations? And if so, what's your plan in terms of playing such an instrumental role in the broader progress of Ottawa towards becoming netzero? And or any other sorts of electrification programs?   Bryce Conrad  51:20 Yeah, yeah, I mean, let's be clear, that's one of the reasons we're doing a netzero commitment.  We made a commitment and the Board was very clear, we're not just doing this so that we can feather our own cap, we're not doing the sit here and put a banner that says mission accomplished in 2030. We're going to do this because we want to support our community in our city in moving to being netzero, whether that by 2040, or 2050, we want to get there. Hydro Ottawa actually becomes a catalyst to helping them achieve these things. And that means, you know, partnering with the city on their energy evolution file, working with the city on the electric bus stuff I talked about. Helping them look at their municipal buildings and say, okay, you know, the Nepean sportsplex - is it time for this thing to go through a deep retrofit so that we can sort of make it more energy efficient? I mean, the city's got massive real estate holdings, and a lot of buildings that predate me and predate you and predate us, which are in dire need of retrofitting. It's the low hanging fruit, isn't it. We've swapped out the light bulbs already. Like for us to make a difference and to sort of hit those targets that the city has set for itself we got to start doing some real meaningful stuff. Like, we got to start doing some deep retrofits to buildings we got to start doing with the city on the bus, you gotta start doing some big bold things. And we're there to help them do that.  So the true answer to your question, Rebecca, is yeah, we're there. We're there. We'll be there. We'll be partnering with them. We'll use our technology. We'll use our budget if necessary.   Bryce Conrad  53:04 Okay mon ami. How about we close off with some rapid fire questions? Since you've already been a guest on our program? We've come up with some special new ones for you, Bryce, are you ready?   Bryce Conrad  53:17 I'm good.   Dan Seguin  53:19 What are you reading right now? Bryce?   Bryce Conrad  53:21 It's a book by Congressman Jamie Raskin. It's called Unthinkable but January 6, last year, I guess. So Jamie Raskin is a Congressman from Maryland whose son tragically committed suicidelike days before January six. And then he, Jamie Raskin, went on to serve as the the head of the impeachment proceedings against former President Trump as a result January 6, so it's a book about that. So that's really depressing, but it's a fantastic book and terrifying at the same time. But I just finished reading the book by Mark Carney which I recommend to anybody and everybody I thought was really really well done. So if you haven't read that should read that too. Little more cheery.   Dan Seguin  54:13 Now, what would you name your boat if you had one?   Bryce Conrad  54:18 So, the short answer is I think all boats should be called the Enterprise. But I actually saw a boat on the and the Rideau, it was parked in front of the convention center this year. It was just a massive boat. And the boat's name was Size Matters, which was pretty funny. I'll stick with Enterprise!   Dan Seguin  54:43 Wondering if you could share with us who is someone that you truly admire?   Bryce Conrad  54:49 I mean, look, how can you not admire somebody like Nelson Mandela or you know, I think Winston Churchill is probably the greatest leader the world has ever seen. So out I'll go with Winston Churchill on Nelson Mandela and leave it there.   Dan Seguin  55:03 Now, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Bryce Conrad  55:09 I haven't a clue, pass.   Dan Seguin  55:12 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic?   Bryce Conrad  55:17 Before the pandemic, I probably logged, I don't know, 75,000 miles a year on the plane flying from one place to another. A lot of it out of it for meetings and stuff, but the lack of travel, the lack of contact, from a professional perspective, Whether it was going to CS Week or Distribute Tech, or any of these other meetings, you go to them and you'd come back kind of rejuvenated on the one hand, but also kind of inspired by the things that we were doing relative to our peers. And then you'd always pick up one or two little things that you thought the answer was cool. I wish we could do something like that. And quite frankly, it's been two years since I've been able to do that. And, you know, Zoom calls are great, but they just don't capture the same, you don't get the same benefit. Right. So I would say that, obviously, and just just day to day social interaction, it'd be nice to actually be able to have people over without worrying about whether they've been vaccinated and boostered. And all that nonsense, but I'm hopeful.   Dan Seguin  56:30 We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?   Bryce Conrad  56:39 Well, the greatest movie of all time is the Godfather. So that's the one that no matter what time of day or night it's on, if I, if I flipped by and said it's on, I will watch whatever's left of it. So that's just it. And then my favorite TV show - sounds stereotypical -  I love the Sopranos. I re-watched every Sopranos over the holidays, because David Chase came out with that new movie, The Saints of Newark, which I want to refresh my memory on all things Tony Soprano before I watch that.   Dan Seguin  57:10 And lastly, Bryce. What's really exciting you about the electricity sector right now?   Bryce Conrad  57:16 What’s not exciting, right? The biggest challenge facing our country are the people, this generation, this climate change and how we respond to climate change. And where else do you want to be in the middle of a fight then right in the middle of it, right? So climate change is the challenge and electricity as the answer. And the electrical sector is going to be front and center in that fight. So, I can't think of a better place to be. I, like lots of people, have had other opportunities presented to me over the last few years, but there's no place I'd rather be than at the head of Hydro Ottawa as we go into this climate change. In fact, I just think the opportunities are fantastic. I think the impact is fantastic if we can get it right. And I'm just bullish on the sector. I think our  sector is the answer. Whether it be electric, transportation, or heating and cooling. It's going to be electricity. That's the answer. And it's just a question trying to find how do you fit it all together in a formal way that people can understand?   Rebecca Schwartz  58:35 Well, Bryce, that's it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thanks again, Boss for joining us today. We hope you had a good time!   Bryce Conrad  58:44 Had a great time thanks, guys.   Dan Seguin  58:46 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

Technology has evolved so rapidly to make our lives easier, but many would argue these advancements have been a leading cause in the current state of climate change. Knowing we need to find cleaner energy methods, is it possible technology could help solve the problem it may have helped create? Join host Dan Séguin as he sits down with accomplished entrepreneur, best-selling author, and award-winning podcaster Amber Mac to discuss the potential impact technology could have on a greener future. They also explore how Millennials and Generation Z are likely to be leaders in creating purpose-first technology, the rise in popularity of the work from home movement, and why infrastructure is hindering access to electric vehicles.  Related links LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ambermac/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/ambermac --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. I think it's fair to say that within the last decade or two, technology has evolved and innovated at an accelerated pace, unlike any other time in human history, like the fact that Apple releases a new generation of its iPhones every single year, it seems like society has created a demand for faster and better technology. As britannia.com says, social need does drive technological innovation. We're also living in a time where the resources are available for us to achieve these advancements, unlike, say, in 1490, where Leonardo da Vinci had sketches for helicopters, airplanes, and believe it or not submarines, he had the vision, but not the resources at that time to make his inventions a reality. And perhaps, at the time, society didn't have a need for such things. Okay, let's fast forward to today. And when it comes to a major world problem, like climate change, you could argue that there is a real social need for faster and better technology for cleaner sources of energy. And while not all technology exists to achieve net zero, at the very least, some might get us closer. It's hard not to feel that innovation and technology are what's going to help us solve the current climate crisis, even if some would argue that innovation and technology may have caused the predicament that we are currently in in the first place. Now, here is today's big question. So we know that as a society, we need to change how we use energy, find cleaner methods and develop technologies to make this happen. But is that enough? And can technology really curb the impact of climate change? Our special guest today is recognized internationally as an innovation and technology leader. Her professional accomplishments include a best selling author, award winning podcaster, a sought after keynote speaker and accomplished entrepreneur, and she joins us today. So very cool. Amber McArthur is what many call a multi hyphenate. She is a regular business host and experts on Fast Company, CNN, Bloomberg, CBS CTV, the Marilyn Denis show, and Sirius XM, where she co hosts another podcast the fi, better known as Amber Mac, she started her career in San Francisco and Boston, during the .com. Boom, she left the startup world to join Microsoft to build one of the first female focused lifestyle portals. And in 2006, she started her own digital agency. Welcome, Amber, thank you very much for taking the time to join us on this show. Let's kick things off by asking what comes to mind when you hear the word technology and innovation?   Amber Mac  04:04 Well, the first thing that comes to mind when I hear the words technology and innovation is that we need more of it in Canada today. So I think one of the most interesting things that we're seeing when it comes to technology and innovation is when technology can solve a certain problem. And we have many problems in our world today that do need solving. And that's why there has to be such a focus on technology for the future, especially when it comes to the next generation.   Dan Seguin  04:32 Okay, Amber. Now, what do you think are the biggest causes or drivers of technological advancements and innovation today?   Amber Mac  04:42 Well, I think what we've seen historically, especially over the past few decades, is that money is a big driver when it comes to technology and innovation. In 1999. I moved out to San Francisco to work in the startup scene because there was so much money being invested in that community at that time. Now that hasn't really shifted, there's still a lot of money in Silicon Valley. But we're seeing that there are pockets of places across Canada, where there is more investment when it comes to the technology sector. So the truth is, if you're in a community and you're developing technology, it's very difficult if you aren't in one of those core hubs across the country.   Dan Seguin  05:21 Okay. What do you think was the biggest tech innovation that changed the world in 2021?   Amber Mac  05:29 That is a really good question. So I'm thinking you've been thinking about all types of technology innovations. And of course, if I think if you asked me this question in 2020, I would have said, the mRNA technology that has allowed so many of us to get vaccinated, I think, in 2021, when we look at the different types of innovations in our society, I would still stick with the Health Tech theme. Because what I've seen more and more is that this is probably one of the most exciting sectors when we think about the future of technology. And the place where I think I would say deserves the most attention is perhaps within wearables. Right now I'm wearing a band called The whip band that allows me to know if my respiratory rate is off, my HRV rates, all of those details, my sleep, my activity. And I think when we think about an individual, harnessing the power of being able to have data at their fingertips 24/7 In terms of being able to understand their health, I think we've kind of underestimated how critical and important that is, especially during pandemic times.   Dan Seguin  06:37 Now, I know you recently had a conversation with Minister Gibo, the new Minister of the Environment and Climate Change, technologically speaking, what are your thoughts on Canada's plan to be net zero by 2050?   Amber Mac  06:52 I think technologically speaking, when we look at the year 2050, I think most people will agree that seems like a long way away. And I understand the importance of having deadlines. But I think for a lot of Canadians, I think individuals are still kind of unsure about how they can contribute to achieving this goal in Canada. And I think at the end of the day, that's the piece that is missing. You know, we have questions many times in our society, does this mean that I should eat less meat? Does this mean that I should no longer drive a gas powered vehicle? Does this mean that I should think about heat pumps in my home and we have so many questions, but I think at the individual level, Canadians are still kind of unsure about how they can be partners in this goal. And I do think it's up to the federal government to do a better job of communicating that I think businesses are starting to get up to speed in terms of their responsibility. But I do believe that each Canadian can also play a role. But we need a clear definition in terms of what that role is going to be, and how we can help things along the way. So maybe that deadline could be even sooner.   Dan Seguin  08:01 Okay. How does that goal to curb climate change impact technology, as well as us and our everyday lives?   Amber Mac  08:11 Well, I think what we're seeing with this goal in mind is that when we talk about technology, there's a huge opportunity in this country, for those organizations that focus on climate tech. And I think when we say the term of climate tech, the truth is that all technology should have our climate in mind. So I hope at some point, that that is just technology for the future. So I think at the end of the day, I think we're gonna see some incredible opportunities for organizations, including startups in this country, to really start to focus on solutions in terms of getting to that goal. And I think there'll be plenty of opportunities for both investors as well as inventors and researchers along the way, but we really have to learn how to nurture those communities. Because Canada is really great at research. But we're not so great at the commercialization of some of that research. And that's where we can definitely do a better job.   Dan Seguin  09:08 In your opinion, Amber, what innovations in the energy sector or by society at large, with respect to energy use have been the most impactful?   09:20 Well, I've been reading a number of reports, you know, every year in the tech sector, we constantly have these reports that talk about the top technology of 2021. And there are always these really compelling lists on that list. We see technology like heat pumps, you know, it's not exactly the sexiest of technology, but I think there are some places across Canada that are doing a really good job of providing incentives for individual homeowners to actually put heat pumps into their home. We have a home in Charlottetown Prince Edward Island and everybody on PEI Believe it or not, is always talking about heat pumps. Seems like a weird conversation, but they understand their energy efficient that they can get rebates from the government. We don't hear as many of those conversations in other places like where I live now in Ontario. So when it comes to the future of the climate, I think having more of these conversations more incentive for individuals to change their habits, that is definitely critical. We also see headlines on a regular basis, I was just looking on CTV News. And I saw this headline a few days ago, Ontario, researchers create chemical compounds that can neutralize COVID-19. This is amazing research that's being done here in Toronto. However, if you get a little bit further down in the article, you see that it's going to take a couple of years for this technology to come to market. So perhaps a little too late. But we again, we do a great job in this country in terms of research in the space of technology. And we're always innovating. It's just that extra step to get it out there into the public. Okay,   Dan Seguin  10:55 that being said, what does the future of technology look like as we embark on a journey to evolve our energy resources to a netzero future by 2050?   Amber Mac  11:07 Well, I think that 2021 has actually been a pretty ugly year in the world of technology, in some ways, probably not specific to the energy sector. But if we look at some of the big tech companies of today, I think what we've seen is that many of the leaders in that space perhaps lack the vision or the commitment to put things like climate, front and center. And so what I'm hoping for, and I hope this isn't just wishful thinking, is that we see more technology companies, but more specifically leaders who focus on being responsible when it comes to the evolution of technology to help people and and help out a larger population of people. It can't always be about profit, we have to also be focusing on purpose first. Now, if I want to say there's a silver lining there, I think maybe it's the next generation of leaders in the sense that I do believe that they are much more savvy about the future of the planet, and they have energy concerns already, even my 12 year old. And so I believe that next generation has a better possibility of being the leaders of tomorrow that we need to develop technology to make this planet a healthier place.   Dan Seguin  12:20 Now, Amber, based on your knowledge of technology and societal change. What are people looking for in tech? Like, what do they need?   Amber Mac  12:31 Well, how long do you have because I would say one of the things I've learned after almost 20 years in this industry, is that there aren't really that many of us who are out there and have made careers of demystifying technology. I've been fortunate to be able to do that. And I assumed by this point in my career, that there would be, you know, dozens of people who would flock to this job, so to speak in Canada, but there really aren't that many people. And I think what we see today is that Canadians, as individuals have more and more questions all the time about how technology can improve their lives. And I always believe that individuals are hungry and excited about doing the right thing when it comes to technology choices for themselves for the planet. But I do think that a lot of people are confused about what technology to choose. And I do think some technology companies haven't done a great job of demystifying technology to explain how it works, you know, heat pumps, again, if we can go back to that. I mean, that's a great example, a lot of people don't understand exactly how heat pumps actually work to both potentially cool and warm your house. So we have to do a better job. And maybe it's the responsibility of the technology companies. But there probably also is a role for our governments at all three levels to play when it comes to communicating the technology that can make our lives better, and again, can help us in this climate fight.   Dan Seguin  13:55 Now, where do you think the direction of smart technology and devices are going? Is it AI? Autonomous or something unexpected?   Amber Mac  14:07 Well, I think one of the most exciting trends that we're seeing in this space in terms of the future of technology is around the topic of automation. That, of course includes many AI systems. And so when we think about automation at large, I know people worry that this could potentially impact jobs, which it likely will to some extent, but there is a role in the future for automation to be able to play via a significant player in healthcare is one example. You know, just think about all of the research we've seen over the past few years with AI technology that can help to diagnose things like breast cancer more efficiently even then, the human eye. And so I think if we look at the potential of the future AI and automation is probably going to have the biggest impact on our society, it will be beneficial, but we also have to be prepared as a society in terms of having the skills to be able to thrive in the age of automation, knowing again, that some jobs may be at risk.   Dan Seguin  15:07 Are there any Canadian innovations or technologies that have captured your attention?   Amber Mac  15:15 Well, over the years, I've been lucky enough to keep an eye on to some of the top technology companies in the country and even interview some of those founders in the early days. And I would say that there are some bright stars when it comes to categories like fin tech, in the software and E commerce space. I mean, it's hard to have a conversation about technology changing the world without mentioning Ottawa based Shopify. So these are the type of companies that I've kept an eye on. But I do believe that we should be talking about having dozens of Shopifys in our society in terms of what Canadians have the potential to do in the future. So for me, there are sort of glimmers of hope, as far as the innovation that's happening in the tech sector. But I do think we can have to do a better job of the commercialization of some of that technology. And I don't think you have to move to the states anymore, like I did in 1999, to be able to succeed, I think you can have a global technology company that is built and successful right here at home.   Dan Seguin  16:18 Okay, Amber, what do you think the next generation, millennials, or Gen Z's can teach us about technology, or the environment?   Amber Mac  16:31 Well, you know, I think that I would probably look further to Gen Z. I'm not giving up on Millennials just yet. But you know, millennials are getting older. And I think Gen Z tends to be this more exciting category of young people that have grown up with idols out there like Greta Thunberg, and who have said that, hey, this is a fight that we are prepared to fight, we want our parents to fight it, we want our government to fight it, we want our teachers to fight it. And there are activists like us going out there and fighting it. So I am probably most excited about Generation Z in terms of their potential to be able to actually make changes in the world in the future when they come into positions of power. At the same time, I'm hesitant to put the weight of climate on this young generation of kids who maybe haven't had a chance to really be kids, because they've had both the reality of dealing with the COVID 19 pandemic and the realities of dealing with a burning planet that have been basically sitting on their doorstep for so long. So it concerns me a little bit in terms of the pressure we put on them. But I do believe that we're going to see some exciting leaders come out of that generation.   Dan Seguin  17:43 Now thinking of your best selling book, is it still possible to outsmart your kids online, or when it comes to technology in general?   Amber Mac  17:54 I probably am one of those authors. I've written two best selling books and and I always tell people don't buy my books, because they're outdated after a year. We'll be honest about these conversations in terms of what is possible, you know, I wrote power friending, a best seller in 2010. And that was all about the potential of the internet to be this magical place to bring people together. And then all of a sudden, I see algorithms dividing us and being a threat to democracy. And I think wow, you know, I really was kind of naive, with outsmarting your kids online, I think it is possible for adults in the room to be able to have a good handle on what's happening in the technology space. But I probably am less optimistic than when I wrote that book in terms of adults being able to outsmart their kids because they're growing up again with this technology at their fingertips. And they're not naive about the impacts of that technology as well.   Dan Seguin  18:50 Now, I know you've done some research on EVs, electric vehicles, what are the biggest challenges for mass adoption? Does the social need exist finally, to make them a success?   Amber Mac  19:05 I certainly know that there are many people in Canada who are EV specialists whose knowledge is well beyond where I'm at. But the question I constantly have over and over again, is the infrastructure question, I had a chance to listen to some past episodes of your podcast. And I know that you have talked about this a number of times as far as what infrastructure is in place, and even what roles do governments especially municipal governments play as far as that infrastructure and the construction industry and beyond? So, from my perspective, one of the issues that I see is that there's an assumption from some people that every Canadian has a driveway and a garage where they can put these EVs. Now I live in downtown Toronto right off Queen Street. In a detached home. I don't have a driveway. We don't have a parking spot. I am the perfect EV buyer. And yet I cannot actually legitimately have an EV because I don't have a place to plug it in. And I think we're very slowly rolling out the infrastructure even in on the highways in Ontario, I know there have have been some movement to be able to have EV chargers, and some of the on route stops, and we're doing more and more, but it just feels like we're kind of trickling out these solutions is not happening fast enough. So my biggest complaint would be from an infrastructure standpoint, we at some point have to make it possible in the next few years for every single person who needs to plug in an electric vehicle to be able to plug it in, or else we're never gonna meet the goals that we want to meet. And it won't be realistic, that people have that choice that we think that they have right now.   Dan Seguin  20:44 Okay, so on a personal note, are you looking for an EV? And if so, what is your criteria to take the plunge?   Amber Mac  20:53 I would have bought an electric vehicle years ago, if I had some place to plug it in. The reality of my situation is that I just don't have the infrastructure to be able to do that. Now, on a street, one street over from us in downtown Toronto, there now is, I believe one or two chargers that have been put up as a test pilot in the city where people can charge their cars. It's just that's just not enough. You know, we have dozens and dozens of houses on on my street alone. And most people aren't going to walk over a street and then fight for two charging spots. So my desire to own an electric vehicle, unfortunately, is hindered by the reality of a total infrastructure failure. And I'm not sure how we're going to be able to do better if we don't react quickly in the near future.   Dan Seguin  21:43 What sort of smart tech do you have in your home? Does energy efficiency factor into your buying decision when it comes to your home?   Amber Mac  21:53 Well, one of the things that I've really been focused on in 2021, and as part of my company, Amber Mac media, we've committed to this in 2022, is that we're going to be focused more and more on sustainable tech. And even in 2020, and 2019. We actually bought this house I mentioned before, in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, and we did an entire makeover of 140 year old historic home and turn it into a smart home. And it was a really fun project to be able to do this because we were able to focus on sustainable tech. So we have everything in the home from heat pumps, to smart thermostats to energy efficient faucets. And so at almost every level and every point of purchase in the home, we made a decision based on the sustainability factor. Now most Canadians are not going to have maybe the luxury to do it at that level. But let's face it, there's lots of sustainable tech out there. And I do believe more and more, especially as people spend more time at home, that that is going to be something that is driving their decision making. And that's why I am pushing and committing more to this in the next year and years ahead.   Dan Seguin  23:06 Next step up aren't Net Zero homes or renewable home generation are those on your radar?   Amber Mac  23:13 They absolutely are. And I think when we think about the term net zero homes, I mean, all of it is so exciting. And there's so many incredible innovations in this space. At the same time, we have an affordability crisis when it comes to homes in this country. And one of the things that I just don't want to see in the future. And I have to also try to avoid this as someone who covers the sector is to push for solutions that aren't equitable. And so when we think about the future of say, a net zero home, we want that to be something that could be a possibility for every Canadian. And yet right now we have so many issues in terms of that affordability piece that make that almost an impossibility. So we have a long way to go on that front. And it will be exciting when we see the possibility for every homeowner to be able to afford to buy sustainable tech, whether it's because of government rebates, or companies developing technology that just isn't as expensive as what we're seeing today.   Dan Seguin  24:15 Now, this is top of mind for a lot of people. What's your take on remote work? Is it here to stay?   Amber Mac  24:24 Oh, boy. Okay, so I am just fascinated on a daily basis about this topic. Because I'm looking at the research I'm reading what people are saying, in cities and in rural areas all over the world. And all signs points pretty much in the same direction that even if people can safely go back to work a lot of people especially parents, and families, they do not want to go back into an office five days a week. And yet at the same time, I do often talk to people who were who are leaders in the business community Who are so convinced and maybe blinded by, you know what they're hearing that people want to be in the office, it's important for collaboration. You know, we have a small team here, but I have one woman who's worked for us for a couple of years, who I've only seen twice, probably face to face during pandemic times, a woman who works for us in Cape Breton, who I really have maybe only met once in person. I mean, remote work for so many of us in the tech sector has been a reality for decades. And so I think this is an exciting trend that we need to embrace, especially when we think about the future of the planet and commute times and, and the habit that reeks on the world. And I think people are naive to think that most people want to go into a little cubicle with fluorescent lights and spend their days there.   Dan Seguin  25:47 Okay, aside from a cubicle, what are the barriers for it to become the norm after this pandemic?   Amber Mac  25:55 Well, I think one of the most important things that we need to be able to tackle when it comes to the future of remote work is that we need leaders who believe that this is important to the future of their company, or important to the future of recruiting people or the planet, we need leaders who are able to understand one key thing and that key thing is trust. And you have to believe that you can build trust in a virtual environment, I am the first person to say I do think that that is possible. It does take some effort. And it does take some work to do just that. But I think we're naive, again, to think that it is only face to face relationships that can be effective and help to grow a business. I think there are many benefits of remote work that leaders need to embrace. But those leaders who tend to often not embrace remote work, I find they tend to be the leaders who are a little more power hungry. And I like the idea of everybody under one roof. So that can keep an eye on what people are doing. But that is not the way to rule, especially if you're trying to recruit young millennials, or generation Z.   Dan Seguin  27:01 Okay, I'm curious, what tech can't You Live Without when you work remotely?   Amber Mac  27:06 I love that question. So I have this theory that has not been tested. But I have a theory that your virtual work setup. So kind of what we're doing right now is much more important than people think when it comes to things like virtual video, whether it's a zoom call, or a team's call, or you're doing a television interview, whatever that might be. The technology that I can't live without is really that technology that allows me to create a frictionless experience when I'm talking to someone through video, that means I don't have audio issues, or no lighting issues. I'm not you know, in a dark corner of my room where you can't see me and you think I look sketchy and you don't trust me, all of those things that we can do with technology to be able to build trust in this virtual environment. I think we underestimate the potential of those. So the technology that I can't live without, whether it's here in my studio or at home, it's just some basic tech, like a ring light for my desk, USB microphone, those things that help again, with this virtual environment and have made the pandemic a little bit easier because we've been able to build those relationships more efficiently.   Dan Seguin  28:17 Going through your list of accomplishments, Amber, and there are many, what is something you want to accomplish that you haven't yet?   Amber Mac  28:27 Well, I have a lot of things that I want to do in the future. And, you know, I've been in the tech sector for a while now. And I'm excited to continue to demystify technology for Canadians and people around the world. But there are things that I do want to focus on beyond the technology sector. One of those things, perhaps has nothing to do at all with technology. But I've just celebrated my 20th Sober anniversary where I haven't had a drink of alcohol and 20 years. And I do believe that there's this movement that's happening right now with people who have chosen to abstain from alcohol for one reason or another. I'm kind of excited to eventually to create a community around those people. Because I grew up in a place in rural Prince Edward Island where not drinking wasn't a choice. And I do want to show that next generation that there are plenty of people who've chosen sobriety who have been successful, and that we do exist out there. So it's not the right choice for everyone to choose to drink.   Dan Seguin  29:22 Now the energy sector is looking to attract more women in STEM science, tech, engineering and mathematics. What advice would you give companies and or decision makers?   Amber Mac  29:34 Well, it's interesting. I've been doing a little bit of work with actual which is based in Ottawa. Their CEO Jennifer Flanagan is an incredible resource in terms of understanding how we can get the next generation especially young girls interested in STEM and and through our conversations. I've learned many things that perhaps I wasn't aware about in the past and one of those things is often retaining women in the technology sector. If there's a big hurdle to do that, because often they feel as though they're not really accepted, or they don't feel comfortable, you know, they're in an environment where there aren't a lot of other women. So I think it's important for leaders to understand how important it is to create a culture in your organization that really embraces this idea of having a diverse workforce. And that includes, of course, gender diversity. And I think especially in the tech sector, we haven't done a really great job of that within most organizations. So that's kind of a first step. And there, there's some really great work happening right now to teach young girls about embracing technology and careers in technology. But we still have a long way to go. One of the things that Jennifer had said to me recently, is that oftentimes, boys actually choose technology as extra curricular activity. So they may do after school robotics classes, and they tend to sort of have an edge when they get out of school when it comes to having embraced technology. So there are things that we can do to encourage that next generation to get interested. And that means having more and more programs that expose young girls to technology as an option, even just as a hobby so that they develop interest in that space.   Dan Seguin  31:15 Now, how about you close us off with some rapid fire questions? Are you ready?   Amber Mac  31:21 I am ready. Let's do it.   Dan Seguin  31:23 Okay, Amber, what is your favorite word? What's my favorite word?   Amber Mac  31:28 Yes.   Dan Seguin  31:29 What is the one thing you can't live without Amber?   Amber Mac  31:33 One thing that I can't live with out, I don't want to say obvious things like my family. But I will say my whip band. I love my whip. And I love seeing my daily stats and data around my health.   Dan Seguin  31:44 What is something that challenges you?   Amber Mac  31:48 Twitter? Not that it's hard for me to use Twitter. It's just hard not to reply to some people.   Dan Seguin  31:55 Now, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?   Amber Mac  32:00 Invisibility?   Dan Seguin  32:04 If you could turn back time now and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell her?   Amber Mac  32:10 I would probably tell my 18 year old self that all was going to be okay. And the lessons I learned as a young child growing up in rural Prince Edward Island, were going to come in very, very handy in the real world.   Dan Seguin  32:27 And lastly, Amber, what do you currently find most interesting in the technology sector.   Amber Mac  32:35 I am a very curious person. And so there are so many things that I find interesting in the technology sector. But the thing I probably find the most interesting right now in terms of what's happening in this the future is the push for businesses to be more socially responsible. And it's going to be fascinating in 2022, to see how that pans out, you know, some people believe who are in the business world, that a company's only purpose is to actually create profit for individuals and the company at large. But I think what we're going to see in the future is that businesses in the tech space are going to have more responsibility than simply creating profits. So there's going to be some who struggle with this, but there are some that will embrace this and see it as almost a superpower for success.   Dan Seguin  33:25 Now, Amber, we've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. I'd like to thank you very much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.   Amber Mac  33:34 I had so much fun. Thanks so much for having me.   Dan Seguin  33:37 Until next time, I'm Dan Seguin. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.