PhotoBizX The Ultimate Wedding and Portrait Photography Business Podcast

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area Brianna Shrader of www.shyheartstudios.com was interviewed for episode 484, where she shared her insights on how to grow a team to support a fast-growing and profitable photography business. She also delivered a fantastic series of training on how to utilise AI in your photography business last year. Today, I’ve asked her back for what I know will be a motivational episode. Last year, when Laurie Brown delivered her 40 Over 40 marketing strategy training — which has been hugely successful for her — Brianna jumped in. Brianna recently completed her campaign, and if you watch the 2-minute highlight film from her Gala evening that her PR team put together, you’ll be blown away! Seriously, it looks amazing! But it hasn’t been plain sailing. Brianna emailed Laurie and me to say this: Well… I did it!!! Last Thursday, I hosted my Stories of Motherhood Gala. There were a lot of things against me when I kicked this campaign off, and I learned a LOT. It did not pan out to be the big money-maker I had hoped it would be, but I’m already planning for next year anyway. I know that through everything I learned and all of the incredible material I have from it this year, next year will be even more successful. It picked up the most traction in the last 30 days. None of my paid ads went well, but I managed to book about 20 clients (my goal was 30). I had one AMAZING sponsor at $7500, which was the biggest motivation for me to keep pushing through. Andrew — I know we talked about doing an episode about this, and I’m more than happy to do so… but just wanted to give you fair warning that it was not as successful as Laurie’s have been. HOWEVER, I am extremely proud of how it all came together. It was literally my first rodeo, and I know that round two will be even better. That was more than enough for me — and I asked Brianna back for this interview, where she shares all the details behind the scenes of a 40 over 40 campaign. Here's some more of what we covered in the interview: How she turned a challenging campaign into a powerful learning experience Why starting early is the secret weapon for successful photography campaigns The real reason she chose motherhood over a proven 40 Over 40 campaign How following her passion still grew her brand — even without profit Why planning around key dates (like Mother’s Day) can boost your campaign’s emotional impact A look inside her PR strategy and how she got stories about her clients published The power of storytelling in photography marketing — and how to get media attention How a clear sponsorship package helped secure $7,500 in funding Sponsorship secrets — what brands really want in return, and how to pitch it From wildfires to White House shifts — how external events tested her resilience Why building community at her event was more valuable than cash How one unforgettable gala moment (and a trip onstage!) made the event more human Why perfection isn’t the goal — connection and visibility are How involving friends and family created a stronger, more supported launch The unexpected ways a campaign like this can elevate your photography brand Brianna’s plan to scale next year with more shoots, more vendors, and more visibility Why adapting proven templates to fit your purpose is the key to authentic marketing What every photographer should know before launching a passion-driven campaign The power of perseverance — how setbacks became stepping stones How you can learn from Brianna’s wins and mistakes to design a passion-fuelled, profitable project of your own How to turn a one-off campaign into an annual tradition and business builder What’s on Offer for Premium Members If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet. Plus, special member-only interviews. Of course, I want more profit, but I'm also just really ridiculously passionate about motherhood and sharing these stories and the response and the conversations and the emotion that came out of these people that participated has been so rewarding for me. – Brianna Shrader You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online. Seriously, that's not all. Ask. Just ask, and to not be attached to the answer. – Brianna Shrader In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business. What is your big takeaway? Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Brianna shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode. The biggest hurdle for me, I think, was putting myself out there and making that ask was so hard for me. I don't like to ask people for things, certainly not money. It's really hard for me, but I coined February, “Fuck it, February.” I was like, I have no time. I have to just ask. And so I was like, every day I need to just ask one person. And I did that for two weeks straight. Just every day ask somebody, and if they say, ‘No', move on. It's okay, just move on. Just move on. – Brianna Shrader If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Brianna, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below. LAST CHANCE — PhotoBizX Premium Membership Holiday Special! It's rare to see a special price for the Premium Membership but there's one available for you until Monday, June 30th 2025. Why the special? Because it's holiday time (I'm in Spain and off to France) and there's no better reason to celebrate! The 12-Month Premium Membership is normally $200… NOW $120… https://photobizx.com/holidayspecial This is the lowest price you'll ever find for a 12-month membership. SPECIAL BONUS FOR EXISTING MEMBERS If you've already made a membership payment this month and want to take advantage of this deal, I'll refund this month's payment to you. To process the refund, please email me your PayPal email address, which may be different from your regular email address. Make sure you join first, then cancel your existing payments. This way, your Premium RSS Feed URL stays the same. NOTE: If you are already on the special price from last year, there is no need for you to take any action. Your existing membership will automatically renew at the special price. iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons. Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome! Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show. I hope that somebody gets inspired by this and does it either for mothers or for some other, you know what I mean? I hope that it grows, because I think that as photographers, we initially were first were artists, right? – Brianna Shrader If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name. Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them. Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​ Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode: Brianna Shrader Website Brianna Shrader on Facebook Brianna Shrader on Instagram Episode 550: Laurie Brown – How to build (and run) a long term successful photography business How to Attract High-Value Clients with a “40 Over 40” Portrait Campaign I've been in my business for 10 years. If you would have asked me about this a year ago, there's no way I would have thought about anything like this two years ago, three years ago, I think it takes the right mindset and it takes the right passion. – Brianna Shrader Thank you! A huge thanks to Brianna for sharing so generously in this episode. It’s inspiring to hear from someone who’s defined success on her own terms — prioritising peace of mind, freedom, and creativity over chasing profit alone. I hope her story lights a spark for you too, whether it’s about letting go of busywork, finding the right support, or picturing what growth could look like in your own business. I love boudoir. I think it's amazing. I love what Laurie does. I just felt I would have a hard time selling something I myself wouldn't participate in necessarily. I might be able to be convinced, but I find that I'm best at selling albums. Why? Because I buy albums. I create albums for my kids every year, and I treasure them. So I'm so much better at selling something that I love and I utilize. – Brianna Shrader That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business! Thanks, and speak soon Andrew The post 623: Brianna Shrader – Behind the Scenes of a 40 Over 40 Campaign appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area Sara Monika of www.saramonika.com is a super-talented wedding photographer with over 13 years of experience and more than 350 weddings under her belt! She has an awesome website that must truly connect with her ideal clients, thanks to both the beautifully written copy and gorgeous photography. However, that is not why I've asked her for this interview. In a recent interview with Pet Photographer extraordinaire Caitlin McColl, she shared that outsourcing has completely transformed her business and the way she lives her life. That's when she dropped the name of today's guest. Caitlin told me Sara was the queen of outsourcing and helped her get that side of her business dialled. That was enough for me, and here we are! In this interview, Sara shares how to outsource smarter and learn the real key to earning more and working less as a photographer. Here's some more of what we covered in the interview: How outsourcing helped Sara break the income ceiling and reclaim her life as a mum and creative The 3 unmistakable signs it’s time to outsource (and the hidden cost of ignoring them) From 15-hour days to part-time hours and six figures — how Sara redesigned her business model Why you don’t need to earn more to start outsourcing (and how waiting holds you back) Sara’s ethical approach to outsourcing editing to the Philippines — and how it creates a true win-win The hybrid system: how she combines AI with human editors to slash turnaround time A behind-the-scenes look at her workflow: from Lightroom to Google Drive with her VA and editor Why building a team isn’t a luxury — it’s a smart strategy for growth The numbers: how $4,300 in outsourcing saved her 669 hours — and what she did with that time How to attract reliable, values-aligned virtual assistants Why boredom, burnout and busywork are signals to outsource — not signs to “hustle harder” The critical mindset shift: why working smarter always beats working harder Sara’s bigger mission: creating freedom, peace and impact — for herself and other creatives How outsourcing gave her space for passion projects, family and teaching What most photographers misunderstand about outsourcing — and how to get it right from the start What’s on Offer for Premium Members If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet. Plus, special member-only interviews. I'm such a nerd about numbers. And again, very open with numbers, because I don't think it's a taboo subject. Money is just a tool. It's just energy. And if we all just shared with each other, what is going on with our finances, we can all grow and support each other better. – Sara Monika You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online. Seriously, that's not all. We don't get our time back, right? We can always make more money, but we can't get our time back. – Sara Monika In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business. What is your big takeaway? Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Sara shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode. Either choose the thing that's taking up most of your time and outsource that first. So for me, that was editing or the thing that you despise and drains your energy the most. And just start with one of those. – Sara Monika If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Sara, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below. PhotoBizX Premium Membership Holiday Special! It's rare to see a special price for the Premium Membership but there's one available for you until Monday, June 30th 2025. Why the special? Because it's holiday time (I'm in Spain and off to France) and there's no better reason to celebrate! The 12-Month Premium Membership is normally $200… NOW $120… https://photobizx.com/holidayspecial This is the lowest price you'll ever find for a 12-month membership. SPECIAL BONUS FOR EXISTING MEMBERS If you've already made a membership payment this month and want to take advantage of this deal, I'll refund this month's payment to you. To process the refund, please email me your PayPal email address, which may be different from your regular email address. Make sure you join first, then cancel your existing payments. This way, your Premium RSS Feed URL stays the same. NOTE: If you are already on the special price from last year, there is no need for you to take any action. Your existing membership will automatically renew at the special price. iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons. Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome! Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show. In one year, I went from $69,000 in revenue and 15 wedding bookings to doubling that the following year. And I cut my working time in half because I had an editor. – Sara Monika If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name. Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them. Forget about the platform. Forget where you're sourcing the person that you're trying to find. It's all about knowing how to have magnetic hiring, create magnetic hiring, and understand how to really express what you're looking for, to even know what you're looking for, how to effectively interview them, how to look through applications efficiently, because sometimes you can get, 100 applications, and I have a whole system down where it takes me an hour, and I have my three candidates chosen, and I can see the red flags. I can see the potential. It's about really understanding what will make your choice successful. – Sara Monika Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​ Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode: Sara Monika Website The 3-Hour Post Wedding Workflow Checklist Sara Monika on Instagram Sara Monika on YouTube Sara Monika Shine + Thrive Photography Podcast Episode 606: Caitlin McColl – From Postpartum Depression to Rebuilding a Thriving Photography Business OnlineJobs.ph It's normal for performance to go up and down, but it all depends on how you train someone and how you effectively communicate, and that's all part of the outsourcing made easy method that I have, so a huge part of it is effective communication. – Sara Monika Thank you! Massive thanks to Sara for sharing so openly in this episode. It’s always refreshing to hear from someone who’s built success on their terms — not just for profit, but for peace of mind, freedom and creativity. I hope her story sparks something for you — whether it’s letting go of busywork, finding support, or rethinking what growth really looks like in your business. The more photographers that feel abundant in their time, in their energy, their money, the more they will feel at peace with their welbeing, their family and friends and this gives me chills and makes me emotional. But the more there is peace in the home, around finances, around quality time, the more peace there is in our homes, the more peace there is in the entire world. – Sara Monika That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business! Thanks, and speak soon Andrew The post 622: Sara Monika – Outsourcing Smarter: The Real Key to Earning More and Working Less as a Photographer appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area Lewis Fackrell of www.lewisfackrell.co.uk is this week's interview guest, and I was looking forward to this, a little more than usual. I first approached Lewis when I learned that he offered hybrid coverage for his wedding couples. At the time, I hadn't seen any of his videos and was more interested in the business side of how it all worked and how useful an interview would be for you, the listener. Once I learned that he'd been shooting and offering hybrid coverage – both stills and video – for over six years and that his couples were receiving the combo well, we scheduled this interview. It was only then I had a deeper look at his work and it's the first time since I stopped shooting weddings that I've thought how incredibly lucky we are to be invited in to capture these days for our clients. I think that's a testament to the work I saw on today's guest website. Then, after a little clicking and scrolling, I found his videos and wow, no wonder his couples love his approach. He's combining world class photography with incredible video and beautiful editing to deliver a 3-5 minute highlights film that truly sucks you in. There's one video in particular that surely must be a booking machine for him, which I'll ask about shortly. In this interview, Lewis shares the BIG advantage of shooting and offering hybrid packages and why couples want photo and video together. Here's some more of what we covered in the interview: Why offering both photography and video has become his edge — and why couples genuinely love it How shifting focus to the business side of hybrid shooting unlocked more bookings and higher sales The real reason couples don’t need convincing to say “yes” to video — and how he makes the decision feel easy His perfectionist workflow: 4 days, 5 hours a day, to craft each highlights film The behind-the-scenes strategy that lets him shoot both video and stills — solo Why the word “hybrid shooter” means nothing to clients — and what to say instead that resonates The upsell strategy that works: book photo first, then add video once trust is built How he's using gear (and clever setup hacks) to shoot seamlessly, capture real emotion, and keep things simple Why filming clients watching their own film has become his new secret weapon How the client experience starts with backups… and ends with a wow Why authenticity trumps perfection — and what’s working right now to boost credibility and trust His “Hybrid Playbook” — 70 lessons built for photographers who want to do this well The surprising way hybrid shooting leads to less burnout, more freedom, and more time with family Why Lewis is considering outsourcing editing — and how that’s about buying his weekends back The real reason hybrid isn’t just a trend — it’s the future of wedding photography (if you choose to adapt) What’s on Offer for Premium Members If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet. Plus, special member-only interviews. Well, initially, it's photography that's always my priority, especially throughout the day. And I always make it absolutely clear that I'm a photographer first, and then I add highlights, video clips afterwards. – Lewis Fackrell You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online. Seriously, that's not all. One of the most important things you need to do is know your camera inside out, upside down, back to front sort of thing. – Lewis Fackrell In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business. What is your big takeaway? Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Lewis shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode. Not only is it easier for me to book new couples, but by adding on, I charge 900 pounds for the highlights film, for the hybrid highlights film, and so that's added on. Essentially, it's 100% profit. – Lewis Fackrell If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Lewis, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below. PhotoBizX Premium Membership Holiday Special! It's rare to see a special price for the Premium Membership but there's one available for you until Monday, June 30th 2025. Why the special? Because it's holiday time (I'm in Spain and off to France) and there's no better reason to celebrate! The 12-Month Premium Membership is normally $200… NOW $120… https://photobizx.com/holidayspecial This is the lowest price you'll ever find for a 12-month membership. SPECIAL BONUS FOR EXISTING MEMBERS If you've already made a membership payment this month and want to take advantage of this deal, I'll refund this month's payment to you. To process the refund, please email me your PayPal email address, which may be different from your regular email address. Make sure you join first, then cancel your existing payments. This way, your Premium RSS Feed URL stays the same. NOTE: If you are already on the special price from last year, there is no need for you to take any action. Your existing membership will automatically renew at the special price. iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons. Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome! Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show. I've not needed to advertise any of the highlights film. I've always just emailed couples and say, “Hey, this is what I do. Here's four or five examples. Would you like to add it on to your coverage?” – Lewis Fackrell If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name. Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them. At the end of the day, we're there to document it and not to curate it. – Lewis Fackrell Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​ Here is the latest review… ★★★★★ I've learnt Soooo much! Via Google by Geneva pet photographer Heather in Switzerland, on June 12th, 2025. The best summation as a reason why you should join this group. It's not just Andrew's brilliant podcasts, but all the special training sessions from various experts in the field, that make it absolutely invaluable. I've learnt Soooo much from this group, from their experts, their training, the podcasts and from other photographers who I now count as friends….and I know that as long as I'm in business, then I'll be part of this group, as there is always so much more that we don't know and NEED to learn. So thanks, Andrew, for having me on the group and for all the training courses, which are absolutely top-notch. Heather (Mont Blanc Photography). Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode: The Hybrid Playbook – Online Course for Wedding Photographers Lewis Fackrell Website Lewis Fackrell on Instagram TX660 Digital Voice Recorder TX Series The main reason is because I stand out in a crowded market. In a sea full of photographers, I'm there just saying, “Hey. Well, I can do both for you, and it's cheaper,” which is normally the main priority for couples. – Lewis Fackrell Thank you! Big thanks to Lewis for jumping on the mic and sharing so openly. Loved hearing how he’s built a streamlined, profitable business by doubling down on what couples actually want — and making it all look effortless. Hope this one sparked a few ideas (or a full-on inspiration) for your own photography business. The key to hybrid is speed and communication. – Lewis Fackrell That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business! Thanks, and speak soon Andrew The post 621: Lewis Fackrell – The Hybrid Advantage and Why Couples Want Photo and Video Together appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area Lindsay Baca of www.lindsaybaca.com, today's interview guest, appeared on my radar in a different way to usual. She joined the PhotoBizX Membership and had a hassle setting things up to listen to the premium episodes on her podcast app. We jumped on a call, so I could help get it sorted, and we started chatting about her business. I learned about her adventure sessions, which sounded amazing. After seeing her website and social media, I fell in love with her photography – yes, I'm a total sucker for shallow depth of field, incredible outdoor scenes, and happy people with their dogs! She has been in business as a photographer since 2012. She was running three separate brands with three separate websites before rebranding and focusing exclusively on pet photography in the great outdoors. Based in Portland, Oregon, in the USA, in this interview. Lindsay shares how she rebranded, raised prices, and found her niche (and happiness). Here's some more of what we covered in the interview: Why Lindsay walked away from weddings to chase dogs — and never looked back How following her gut led to a thriving business and more time with her kids The turning point that changed everything in her business Doubling her prices = better clients, more bookings, no burnout What a $240K year looks like for a solo dog photographer Ditching “shoot everything” for “shoot what I love” — and earning more doing it The rebrand that flipped the switch — and how SEO helped her get found How upgrading to Sony levelled up her action shots (and client reactions) Why ongoing learning isn’t optional — it’s essential Turning pet lovers into print-buying superfans The relaxed sales approach that starts with a chat and ends with wall art Showing products early = bigger sales later A smooth client journey — from first phone call to artwork delivery Yes, the treadmill desk is real — and it’s boosted productivity big time Marketing with meaning — from ranking on Google to heartfelt Instagram posts Running a business with two little ones in tow — the real-life juggle Why giving back through pro bono shoots is part of the strategy The mindset shift that made community work a smart business move A full calendar and a big heart — how she avoids burnout while still giving back What’s next? More passion, more impact, and an even better client experience What’s on Offer for Premium Members If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet. Plus, special member-only interviews. I eventually just really wanted to stick with my true love, which is dog photography. I've been full time with dog photography since 2019 and I was just slowly phasing out the family photography and the weddings, because those just weren't fulfilling me in the same way that photographing dogs was. – Lindsay Baca You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online. Seriously, that's not all. It's really important to me that the pictures are exactly how I want them to be. I don't want to sacrifice anything, just to do it faster, to make more money. The art is more important to me than the money. – Lindsay Baca In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business. What is your big takeaway? Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Lindsay shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode. It's important to me, that it's as great of an experience as possible. So if there's any way to make it a little bit better, I will do whatever I can, and that includes rescheduling. – Lindsay Baca If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Lindsay, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below. iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons. Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome! Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show. Every time I put a newsletter out with an offer, I usually get at least one booking from it. – Lindsay Baca If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name. Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them. It's more than just money to me. I want to be part of the community. I want to help. – Lindsay Baca Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​ Here is the latest review… ★★★★★ The BEST photography podcast! Via Google by Adelaide pet photographer Elouise Giardina, in Australia on June 6th, 2025. Hands down the BEST photography podcast you'll ever find! Andrew does an amazing job asking all the right questions to the people he interviews. I would not have had such a successful photography business if it wasn't for this podcast! Thank you Andrew! Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode: Lindsay Baca Website Lindsay Baca on Instagram Lindsay Baca on Facebook If I spend more time just focusing on the one thing that really, really, really, truly brings me joy, then I think this is going to go a lot better for me. I'll make more money, I'll have more focus. – Lindsay Baca Thank you! Big thanks to Lindsay for jumping on the mic and sharing so openly. Loved hearing how she’s built such a strong, profitable business by leaning into what lights her up — and doing it her way. Hope this one sparked a few ideas (or a full-on fire) for your own photography business. Clients are mostly finding me on Google and through Instagram. But my SEO is really good. I spent a lot of time working on that. And yeah, I would say 80% probably come from Google. – Lindsay Baca That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business! Thanks, and speak soon Andrew The post 620: Lindsay Baca – Rebranding, Raising Prices, and Finding Her Niche (and Happiness) appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area Courtney Bryson of www.cmbryson.com is a US-based pet photographer who lives in a rural community of only 800 people. However, she has an average sale of $6000! It was this email from PBX Premium Member Laurie Elmer that prompted me to request this interview. She wrote… My good friend and amazing pet photographer, Courtney Bryson, has developed an innovative hybrid process for in-person sales, out of necessity due to her location relative to her clients. She has managed to combine all the personal touches that make IPS so successful, delivering them via pre-recorded video, including album and wall art mock-ups. I bet listeners would love to learn more about her process. That was enough for me! Still… In addition to that email, I took a look at her easy-to-navigate website. I saw beautiful albums, stunning wall art, terrific photography and clear navigation to get in touch and book a session for your dog or horse. Requesting this interview was a no-brainer! In this interview, Courtney shares how to sell albums and artwork without in-person consults (either in person or via Zoom). This is the perfect sales strategy for introvert photographers. Here's some more of what we covered in the interview: Why Courtney’s happy to drive 3 hours to a shoot — and how it pays off The small-town marketing approach that brings in big-city bookings How she ranks #1 for “Atlanta pet photographer” — and stays there The simple referral line that brings in her best clients How a six-email sequence turns leads into high-paying bookings Why charity sessions are a win for her calendar and her bank account What happens when you tell clients: “10 summers, not 18” Why she only markets to dog-obsessed professionals — and ignores the rest How talking price early makes everything easier later Charging £1,000 to book? Here’s how that filters for serious clients Why albums, wall art and emotion are the real close — not the pitch The 20-minute video that replaced her in-person consults No Zoom. No pressure. Just a hybrid sales system that works Why she doesn’t sell files — and how artwork leads to bigger sales How outsourcing and drop-shipping helped her earn more by doing less The business model behind earning a full-time income with 35 clients a year “I’m a business owner first” — the mindset shift that changed everything How her introvert-friendly system sells while she walks the dogs What’s on Offer for Premium Members If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet. Plus, special member-only interviews. I want all of my clients to have one image like that, so it's like one big statement image where your dog looks like an art piece. And then I want them to have a small gallery wall of images that are a little more intimate… That would be kind of the ideal sale for me. And then an album, because everybody gets an album. – Courtney Bryson You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online. Seriously, that's not all. I love getting to work with just the clients that I want to work with, the ones that are obsessed with their dogs. Those are the people that I want to work with. – Courtney Bryson In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business. What is your big takeaway? Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Courtney shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode. My middle collection is a 20 image album and $1,000 towards wall art… which gets you a very small piece of framed artwork…Most people do choose that middle collection, but when we add on the wall art and the actual size that they need, that's where we get to six [thousand]. – Courtney Bryson If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Courtney, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below. iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons. Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome! Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show. I've gotten to be a better salesperson. Prices have gone up a little, but not significantly. But I think I get to be better, then they're buying more. – Courtney Bryson If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name. Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them. I think it's really about the way that I see their dog, and then showing them that in the pictures, they get to see their dog almost like a fairy tale. It's their dog, but on their very best day. – Courtney Bryson Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​ Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode: Courtney Bryson Courtney Bryson on Instagram Courtney Bryson on Facebook Video Sales for Photographers CloudSpot – Online Gallery FrameSuite – custom wall art shop I'm really kind of trying to educate them about why you should pick a pet photographer, why you should pick me, and why it's expensive. – Courtney Bryson Thank you! Big thanks to Courtney for coming on the show and sharing so openly. It’s been incredible to see what she’s built — especially from such a small town, on her terms. I hope this episode sparked a few lightbulb moments and left you with ideas you can run with in your own photography business. My goal is, great images, great service, a great final product. And then I ask them if they know anyone else who would want this too. – Courtney Bryson That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business! Thanks, and speak soon Andrew The post 619: Courtney Bryson – How to Sell Albums and Artwork Without In-Person Consults appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area Marcus Anthony of www.marcusanthonyphoto.com is today's guest, and I don't often say I'm pumped to record an interview, but today is different! And for a number of reasons. Our special guest has been a PBX Member since 2017! I first interviewed him for episode 326 in 2019. When researching that interview, I learned that he picked up a camera to make a bit of money on the side. He established himself quickly as a wedding photographer but moved to portraits. When I released that last interview, he had a record month of USD$ 55,111 in July 2019. Moving to today, I recently learned he's written a book! He says it's sort of his philosophy on business (not specifically aimed at photographers) and the best way he knows for entrepreneurs to grow. We exchanged several messages, and he told me his business has undergone quite a transformation since we last spoke. He said, I’ve made roughly 9 million dollars in revenue the last 3 years and spent 2.6 million on FB ads! I'm talking about Marcus Anthony and I'm rapt to have him with us now! In this interview, Marcus shares how shifting his focus from products to offers completely transformed his business — leading to more leads, higher conversions, and a team-run studio that doesn’t rely on him picking up a camera. He dives into the mindset behind his success, the KPIs he tracks religiously, and why generosity and simplicity have become his most powerful marketing tools. Here's some more of what we covered in the interview: Why Marcus hasn’t touched his camera in over 15 months — and why that’s a good thing Scaling without a studio: the pop-up model that lets him launch fast Forget perfect plans — how messy action helped him grow in new cities What Marcus looks for before launching in a new city (hint: it’s not just demographics) Training a team to shoot like you — without losing your brand Copycats aren’t the problem — staying stuck in product-mode is Facebook Ads still work (if you know what to track) The numbers that matter: cost per lead, conversion rate, average sale Why your “product” might be stopping you from making sales His go-to formula for turning free sessions into high-value bookings Generosity that sells — how giving more can lead to bigger profits What it really takes to build a business that runs without you Simple, scalable, sellable — Marcus’s checklist before making any move The three things that changed everything: mindset, mentors, marketing Beyond Facebook — where Marcus is testing next From Costco to coaching — the left-field lessons behind his business growth What’s on Offer for Premium Members If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet. Plus, special member-only interviews. Imperfect action is way better than perfection every single time. – Marcus Anthony You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online. Seriously, that's not all. It's more about conceptualizing the idea that you need to give a lot more value upfront than you've ever had to give in the history of the world… If you're not scared about your offer, then you're probably not giving enough away. – Marcus Anthony In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business. What is your big takeaway? Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Marcus shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode. You can only do so much volume in one city until the market dries up, because there's only so many people willing to pay X amount of dollars for high end photography at a time. – Marcus Anthony If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Marcus, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below. THIS WEEK! Sales With Fundy – One tool, one workflow, one game-changing training! If you’re still running your sales sessions from Lightroom or a gallery… you’re missing out. Big time. This FREE live workshop is your shortcut to higher sales, smoother sessions, and happier clients — using Fundy Designer. No pressure. No salesy tactics.Just a proven workflow taught by John Glaser who use it to sell $3K+ orders every day. (You’ve heard John on the podcast. Now he’s teaming up with me to show you exactly how he does it.) This live training is made for photographers who want to: Turn “just digitals” into wall art buyers Follow a step-by-step sales system that works Create emotional, high-impact presentations Feel confident selling—without being pushy or awkward Live Class: Thirsday, May 29 @ 6am AEST (click here for your local) Can’t make it live? Replay included 100% free – but spots are limited Download Fundy and follow along live with your own photos Grab your spot here: https://learn.photobizx.com/sales-with-fundy/ Stop leaving money on the table. Build a sales system that works. iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons. Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome! Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show. The number one skill that you need to have in business in 2025 is offering value as cheaply and as frictionless as possible. – Marcus Anthony If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name. Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them. I think most photographers are obsessed with their product, but not their offer. I think a huge realization or distinction needs to be, your offer is not your product, and your product is not your offer. – Marcus Anthony Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​   Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode: Unstoppable: 9 Steps To Master Marketing And Get More Clients Than You Can Handle Episode 326: Marcus Anthony – This is how you run a successful portrait photography business Marcus Anthony Website Marcus Anthony on Instagram Marcus Anthony on Facebook Episode 136: Bernie Griffiths – A Challenge for You to Book More Portrait Photography Sessions Episode 530: Audra Harris – How to successfully outsource lead qualification calls in your photography business A service business is all about attracting attention, getting leads, converting those leads into customers, converting those customers' dollars into sales and then rinsing and repeating, and that's as simple as it can possibly get. – Marcus Anthony Thank you! A big thanks to Marcus for jumping back on for this interview and sharing so openly. It’s been awesome to watch his journey unfold over the past few years—from that first email to the business he’s built today. I hope this chat sparked a few lightbulb moments and gave you plenty to take back into your own photography business. All you have to do if you have the discipline and the wherewithal is keep track of three numbers. I call them KPIs, key performance indicators. … customer acquisition cost, average sale and cost per lead. – Marcus Anthony That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business! Thanks, and speak soon Andrew Episode Transcript Email Download New Tab 618: Marcus Anthony - Offers, Not Products: Rethinking How You Sell Photography   Andrew Hellmich: I don't often say I am pumped to record an interview, but today is different, and for a number of reasons. Our special guests has been a PBX member since 2017 and I first interviewed him for Episode 326 in 2019, only a couple of years after he became a member. When researching for that interview, I learned that he picked up a camera to try and make a bit of money on the side, and he established himself quickly as a wedding photographer, but he moved into portraits not long after. At the time I released that interview, he had a record month of USD55,111 in the month of July, 2019. It was a massive month. Moving to today, I just heard that he's written a book. He says it's sort of a philosophy on business. His philosophy on business not specifically aim at photographers. And the best way he knows for entrepreneurs to grow. We exchanged a couple of messages, and he told me his business has gone through quite a transformation since we last spoke. He said I've made roughly $9 million in revenue in the last three years and spent $2.6 million on Facebook ads. I'm talking about Marcus Anthony, and I am rapt to have him with us now. I can't wait to learn more. Marcus, welcome back, mate. Marcus Anthony: Thank you, Andrew. Good to be here. Good to see you again. What an intro. Andrew Hellmich: Mate, I can't believe it. Do you still feel like a photographer or you now just. Marcus Anthony: No. Andrew Hellmich: You don't. Marcus Anthony: No, that ship has sailed, but I'm just a marketer who happens to take pictures. If you told me 10 years ago that, you know, I'd spent that amount of money on ads and made that amount of revenue back, there's no way I would have believed you if you told me that three years ago, I wouldn't have believed you. But when you find something that works, you gotta milk it for all it's worth and so, so, yeah, it's been a transformation from, this is a common theme with a lot of your interviews. I've noticed people have kind of have that aha moment where they become a marketer or a business owner or a CEO or whatever, and not a photographer. Andrew Hellmich: So do you still pick up the camera today? Marcus Anthony: No. No. It's been 15 months since I've taken a professional photograph. Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so tell me about the business now and then we're gonna go back and sort of try and piece together how you got to where you are. So I'm guessing, if you're not shooting, you've got staff. Marcus Anthony: Yeah. Andrew Hellmich: What's your day to day life like today? Marcus Anthony: So I would call myself a marketer. My day to day is in the back end of Facebook and generating copy and creative for new marketing campaigns. That's where I spend the bulk of my time. And then a lot of it is also logistics. So I have three photographers that work for me at the moment, and they're flying all over the United States. We generally go anywhere between 8 to 12 Cities per month. And so they're very, very busy. But that also means a lot of logistics, hotels, flights, studio rentals, gear rent, you know, all kinds of that kind of stuff. And so I handle that as well. Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so, are you shooting in pop up type studios? Is that how you would describe it? Marcus Anthony: Yeah, that's exactly how we describe it. Yep, it's a pop up business model. Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So do you have any fixed studios these days? Marcus Anthony: No, no. The last one we had was my studio here in Wilmington, and that, I closed that in December 2023, I think it was, yeah, Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, so how did you get to where you are now? Because I know that, like when I first spoke to you, you know, even when you first started out, you were photographing weddings. My recollection is, you know, you hired Bernie, Bernie Griffiths, the photography business coach. He coached you to get into portraits. You went down that road. You sort of went to black and white photography from color, and things seemed to take off after that. Am I on the right track there? Marcus Anthony: Yeah, you teed me up perfectly. That's exactly what happened in a nutshell. I hired Bernie. I mean, that was the catalyst, for sure. He showed me why weddings weren't the way to scale. But at the time, when I hired him, I didn't even know what the word scale meant. I was just trying to make any sort of money. You know, I It's not like I've I'm in this overnight success. It's been a slow journey. But you know, like I said a few minutes ago, when you discover that system and it is scalable, because not all systems are scalable, you can ride the wave. So, yeah, so the last time I spoke with you 2019 I think it was I was starting to ride that wave, but it was still just me by myself, wearing all the hats, doing all the things, taking the pictures, doing the sales, all the stuff. And so, you know, there's a ceiling to that in terms of revenue. My city population around here in Wilmington, and I'm about to move to Georgia, but in Wilmington, North Carolina, the Tri County area is like 400,000 people. So not tiny, but not Chicago or New York, you know. So I reached a point where I kind of saw the writing was on the wall. I'm like, I can't take this any further. It's really good. But if I want to grow, and I did, I need to expand. So I opened up another studio in Charlotte, North Carolina, about three hours away, and I hired my first photographer employee, Jorge from Venezuela. He is awesome. He still works for me today, and so, yeah, so I had that studio going as well as my Wilmington studio that lasted about 18 months in Charlotte. And the same thing kind of happened. I'm like, Okay, I can't really, you know, there's only so many people in Charlotte and Wilmington. What's next? So I just had this idea. I remember it vividly. I was laying in bed at night, just squirming and tossing and turning, trying to figure out, how can I make more money, which sounds very greedy if I say that out loud, but that was what I was trying to think. And so I thought, Okay, well, why don't I just send him to a different city, a city with a bigger population, just a stereotypical people have money city, and so I landed on Washington, DC, and I sent him there. He drove up. It's like a five hour drive. It was very like gorilla kind of style, very bare bones. I rented the studio that was basically an industrial warehouse. It was just a big empty room where you feel like you might get kidnapped, kind of, you know, just not, not very professional, but I just did it, and that's a huge learning point for me, by the way. And I think for all the listeners. Imperfect action is way better than perfection every single time. Andrew Hellmich: And let me just hold you there. So this, this warehouse style studio. This goes against the grain of every photographer, like we all want to have our name up in lights this beautiful branding, photos on the wall. You know, a room to welcome guests. You know, a fridge, a bathroom, a you know, all these things. I'm guessing you had some of that, but it sounds pretty bare bones. So you're telling me it's really just about getting the leads to get the people in. It doesn't matter what it looks like? Marcus Anthony: Yeah, of course, to a certain degree. Yes. You know, it was just an experiment at the time, and of course, I would rather have had all that stuff, but really, that is something that we tell ourselves to a certain degree. I mean, not all that stuff matters. It matters to a certain degree. And each person has their own brand. You know, I'm not saying this is the only way to do it. This is the way that I did it. And it just exploded despite, you know, the none of that stuff happening. Andrew Hellmich: Okay. Marcus Anthony: We didn't have a refrigerator. We didn't have, you know, we had no bottles of water for everybody. All those things were absent completely. It was just a backdrop, a camera, yeah, Andrew Hellmich: Did people walk in and say, 'Okay, this is'... does it say Marcus Anthony studios? Like, when they walked in, did they know they were in the right place? Marcus Anthony: Nah. Andrew Hellmich: Nothing? Marcus Anthony: Well, you know, it's Google Maps, so you trust the GPS to get you there, and you show up. And most people showed up. Of course, we had the no shows and the ghosters and all that kind of stuff, just like any business will have. I'm not saying it ran perfectly, but it was enough for me to realize, okay, we got something here. Let's do it again and again. Andrew Hellmich: Amazing. Marcus Anthony: You know Andrew Hellmich: So continue the story. So you have this pop up there in Washington. You're getting a good feeling for it. It's, well, you said it's exploding. Marcus Anthony: Yeah. Andrew Hellmich: What happened next? Marcus Anthony: Yeah. So it really is just the same system that Bernie taught me, you know, I don't know how many years ago now, but except it was just for a limited time. So I think that was a bit of a it added a bit of scarcity, because we literally could only be there for the three days. I think we did Friday, Saturday, Sunday, that we rented the studio. So in people's minds, they're like, oh, I have to do this right now. And of course, I had the our sales and Booker, and we use Audra, by the way, who you've interviewed in the past. I used her then I use her now. She's great. But, you know, I just had her lean into that a little bit. We're only here on these dates, and so I think that added to it, you know, a little bit of mystique and stuff like that. But yeah, I ran a wanted ad, you know, I think we did mothers and children and dogs as well. We did both genres, and we just filled up our calendar as best we could. I think I had, like, 30 hours total that I could fit. And I think we booked maybe 24 out of those 30, which I was happy with. And they're all back to back. So my photographer, Jorge, I cannot thank him enough. I still don't know how he does it. He's like, he's a couple of years older than I am, and my back already hurts. I'm 38 but I can't imagine what he's doing. I mean, can you imagine photographing 13 sessions, one hour blocks, back to back, all day? I mean, he does that on the regular basis, and it's just insane. Andrew Hellmich: No way. I say to Linda, when I went on shooting as much as I was like, two portraits a day, that's it. That's all I can handle. I don't want any more. I don't want any more than that. Marcus Anthony: Yeah, well, he, he gets it done, and he doesn't complain. It's pretty cool. So, yeah, so that's what happened. And there was a, you know, a period of time where we went to different cities, some of them didn't perform as well as Washington, DC. So my initial theory of more population, you know, I think in Australia, you guys call them the richies, right? Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. Marcus Anthony: Is that an expression? Okay, you know people who have a little bit of money in their pocket. So we found that that generally in the United States, those cities, those stereotypical wealthy cities, perform better. And so eventually we started going to those more so than the smaller population kind of cities, and we had more and more success with those. So after a few months of. Sending Jorge to these places. I just saw it. I'm like, let's keep going. So I hired two more photographers at the same time, and they were kind of on the West Coast. I hired them. They live in California. So if you can kind of picture this geographical web, I don't know how well you know the United States, but California is on the west coast, where I live in North Carolina is on the east coast, and Jorge also lives in North Carolina. So I basically divided up the map. I said, Okay, you two guys take the West Coast. Jorge will stay on the East Coast, and we'll just kind of keep running this thing and see what happens. And we had ups and downs again, learning that lesson over and over. Like the smaller cities are not as good as the bigger cities, but, but there's so many of them, so it was like, Man, I wish these smaller cities performed better, but over time, I learned my lesson, and we kind of figured out a steady, stable system on which where, on where to go. Andrew Hellmich: Right. Marcus Anthony: You know what I mean? Andrew Hellmich: You're indicating there, what some of the downsides, or some of the lessons are that you learned there, and that was, you know, staying away from the smaller populations. Like, did you actually, did you really learn the lesson in a hard way? You know, did you send Jorge to a place and then, like, no one showed up. Or did you always have the bookings before you sent him somewhere? Marcus Anthony: Yeah, I always made sure to kind of say, Okay, we're going here in six weeks. So we had that much time to market to get bookings. But at the same time, it was a huge risk, because I'm booking the studio ahead of time. I'm not booking the flights and the hotels immediately, but, you know, a lot of these studios, they have non-refundable policies, and so there's a good amount of money being put on the line at more or less, a guess. Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. Marcus Anthony: But again, you know, in those early days with Jorge, when I was sending them to these places, there weren't really any like, 'Oh my God, nobody showed up. I spent $10,000 on Facebook and nobody showed.' That didn't really happen. But that being said, I did learn a lot of lessons, a lot of lessons. You know, I can go into those if you want, but... Andrew Hellmich: Give us an example of one lesson that you learned. What's one? Marcus Anthony: Okay. So, I would say that if you're going to to scale in the way that I have. You really need to keep an eye on your overhead. And I think that's kind of obvious, but saying it out loud, it's obvious, but until you're in it, and you're like, my eyes were literally dollar signs, I could see the potential. So my What is that expression My eyes were bigger than my stomach, or something like that, right? Andrew Hellmich: Yes, yes. Marcus Anthony: Yeah. So, yes, definitely some lessons learned. Where if you were, you know, for me, who's not taking the pictures, I'm paying for the advertising, the hotel, the flight, the photographer, the sales, the editing, all these things, and I'm not doing any of them, so therefore I'm outsourcing them. If a city were to underperform, and there's a break-even point somewhere. But you know, it took a few tries to realize what that break-even point was. Andrew Hellmich: Did it ever get to a point where you thought this, this isn't going to work, or was it always, no, I've just got to crack it. I'm so close it's going to work? Marcus Anthony: Well, the kind of a disappointing answer, but it almost worked immediately. Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Marcus Anthony: So I didn't really have that crisis of, like, you know, 3, 4, 5, 6 months in, I'm like, I'm so close. I'm so close. I was just, because I already did that in my own business in Wilmington and again in Charlotte. So it was already proven. So I had this theory that, okay, we've done it in two cities. Why wouldn't it work in XYZ city? And then, you know, two or three cities in with Jorge. It was like, Okay, I mean, let's go right. Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. Marcus Anthony: The sky's the limit. Andrew Hellmich: So good. When you're booking these or planning these, pop up studio, I don't know what do you call them sessions, or you're targeting an area, what comes first? Do you book the studio first? Do you run your Facebook ads first? Do you qualify your leads first, like, what comes first? Which order does it go in? Marcus Anthony: So I decide on a city first. Early on, it really was just so there wasn't a system for deciding where to go, except my gut feeling and just basically following a stereotype on a city, again, with those higher populations, you know, generally there's wealthier people, or at least, if there's the same amount or the same percentage of wealthy people, there's just more of them, because there's more population, right? So by proxy, you know, so, but then it took me a while, but I did figure out a system to kind of determine where to go. So I would maybe say, here's 20 cities. Let me run a very low budget, add to all 20 of these and see which performed the best. And then I'll go to those top performers kind of thing. I call it a heat map. Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So once you've got your heat map, then you think, okay, we're going to go here next. Then you go and find a studio, Marcus Anthony: Yeah, and then yeah, and then I'll message them, and I'll say, Hey, we're thinking about coming on these dates. Do you have availability? Do the deposit, sign the contract, all that kind of stuff, and then it's time to market on Facebook. Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. Amazing. Alright, I'm going to ask you more about Facebook in just a minute. So it sounds like with Jorge, you had a chance to train him up in your style. He was shooting the way you wanted. It was working when you brought on the other two photographers. How did you go about training them? Because did you have a look that they needed to adhere to for you to have the success that you have? Marcus Anthony: In my head, I did, yeah. I thought, Okay, this is sort of our brand now. And what it was a white backdrop, black and white and in a studio. So we had two lights, very simple setup. We had one bare bulb strobe on the backdrop to brighten it up, and then one giant 65 inch umbrella, about 45 degrees for the key light, and that's it. So, yeah, I did have a specific look that I wanted to keep. And yes, I did train Jorge on that. When I originally trained Jorge, it was like a whole thing. I made it like, Okay, I'm going to go up there. I'm going to visit you every week up here. You know, I'm going to shadow you. Is this whole thing, and it so did not need to be that. So for I learned my lesson, and for the two guys that I well, it was a guy named Art and a woman named Laura. They both lived in California, and so Art was like three hours away. So he drove down to LA, where Laura lived, and I flew out to them on a random Friday or something. And literally, in Laura's garage, we just set up a paper seamless, and I showed them the lighting setup, and it took like two hours, not even we took pictures of each other. I did a Facebook ad, and I got, I just said, Hey, free session in exchange for being a model, because I needed a model to show these guys how to take the pictures. And the girl ghosted me on the day of so basically, we, basically, we just took pictures of each other, and yeah, it took like, two hours, and I was very satisfied that they knew exactly what to do, and I never did any follow up training or anything. I'm not saying that's how you should do it. I'm just saying that it was simple enough to where two hours of training and they were good to go. Andrew Hellmich: So where do you lose the fear that someone like Jorge or Art or Laura, are going to take your idea and make it their own? 'Hey, he's on the other side of the country. This works. I can see what he's doing. I'm just going to do it myself.' Marcus Anthony: Yeah, that's such a good question, because that was on my mind a lot in the beginning, and it isn't anymore, but it definitely lingered there. It was always a fear, but so in my head, I did two things. The first thing was, I separated the process out so they were strictly responsible for photographs. That's it. All they had to do was take the photographs, upload them to Dropbox, that's it, and then they can clock out for the day. And then the second thing I did was, well, I didn't really do anything. It just had this belief that most people are not action takers, which I don't know sounds harsh, but I've learned that that is just the reality. They are very content with the either being told what to do or doing it themselves, but doing very small they're just small minded. I'm not trying to insult anyone, because most people are very happy with where they're at in life, and that's totally fine. I've just noticed that, you know, you can give someone information on a silver platter and maybe they'll read it or view it or whatever, but they won't implement it. That is the majority of the population. I would say. Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I would agree with that. I would agree with that. Marcus Anthony: Okay. Andrew Hellmich: So you just pushed that fear or those feelings away? Marcus Anthony: Yeah. And it just sort of reinforced my belief when I hired these guys and they did not, well, to my knowledge, they didn't do that. Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, sure. Marcus Anthony: So, yeah. So far. So good. Andrew Hellmich: Unreal, unreal. So what do you think makes you different? Like, is it your upbringing? Is it because you listen to podcasts? Did you see someone? Do you have a mentor? Like, what makes you different? Why are you the action taker? Marcus Anthony: God, you're so good with the questions. When I was writing this book, I did a lot of reflecting, and I was trying to figure that out, because if I asked myself that six months ago, I didn't really have an answer. I could bullshit an answer, but I didn't really have one. So I did a lot of reflecting. And there were a couple people in my life early on that I think I was very, very, very fortunate to have. One of them was, are you familiar with Costco? Andrew Hellmich: Yes. Marcus Anthony: Okay, I worked at Costco. Andrew Hellmich: The big shopping center? Marcus Anthony: Yeah, the big giant, yeah, everything's huge in Costco. It's very American, yes. So I worked at the bakery in like, just after college, at Costco, and I had this boss named Don, and the guy was a total d*ck. Just at least, I thought at first, what I came to realize was he was like me now. He was just an action taker. He let nothing get in his way. He just did stuff, whether it was perfect imperfect. He didn't care. He just he wanted to get stuff done. He was the manager of the bakery, and Costco has very high standards for their employees of you know, getting the numbers done, whatever that meant. And I was, like, 19 years old at the time, so I understood none of this stuff, but I understand it now where he was coming from. So in the Costco bakery around Thanksgiving time in November for the United States, we make these pumpkin pies. And the demand for these pumpkin pies, they're like $6 but they're the size of two heads. They're huge. These pumpkin pies are in such demand throughout the holiday season that the bakery department is literally open 24 hours a day for a good six weeks. And so I'm working shifts at like 2am and I'm 19 years old, so like, I'm doing these all nighters with my friends, and then I'm literally driving to Costco half drunk. Don't tell Don, but I'm stumbling into the bakery to make these pumpkin pies. And so this work ethic that Don instilled in me over time, it took a while for me to kind of understand what it was, but that's one guy that that was just really lucky, and then I would say Bernie again, you know, 20 years later, or whatever it was, meeting him, I made up my mind early on. When I hired Bernie, I said, I'm not going to listen to any other podcast, no other blogs. I'm just going to listen to this guy because it seems like he knows what he's talking about. And that decision has served me very, very well. Marcus Anthony: So good, so good. Like, I'll just touch on your parents. Are they, are they like you? Or do you have siblings that are similar to you? Are you, are you the black sheep and they're like, 'Whoa, look what you're doing. It's amazing.' Marcus Anthony: I'm an only child. My parents, I had a great childhood. I have no complaints, but they're kind of, you know they were middle class. I'd say, like, right in the middle, not upper middle, not lower middle, just right in the middle. I can't, you know, nothing against my parents, but no, I can't really say that they, they did give me an allowance, but I had to do chores Andrew Hellmich: Right Marcus Anthony: to get the allowance. So there's that, there is that, but it was, like, $5 a week, and I'm like, scrubbing baseboards with a toothbrush for $5 a week. But it did instill some sort of value of $1 I guess. Yeah, Andrew Hellmich: So are they blown away by what you are achieving now? Marcus Anthony: Well, you know, I found once I got to a certain point, I couldn't really discuss this with them, because it was just like, at a certain point, once you hit a certain point in revenue, I've found that most people just like it doesn't really register. It's like it's not real, almost. And I kind of have that feeling too, like I can say these numbers out loud, it's almost like it's just like it's Monopoly money or something. So talking to them about making, you know, multiple million dollars in a year, is it just, I don't know, it doesn't register. Really. Andrew Hellmich: Amazing. With the business that you built. It sounds like everything is a little bit still at arm's length. So let's say you had a fear that it was all going to come tumbling down. You lived every day thinking it can't keep going like this. At some point this is not going to work, but it feels like you've created the business where if it did stop working, you can just walk away. I mean, you don't have leases. You're not tied into, you know, five years of paying a lease for a studio in four different cities. Yes, you've got employees, but if you have to, you let them go. Have you done that on purpose? Is that the way you feel? Marcus Anthony: You know, that's actually a really good point. I haven't looked at it that way before, but you're right. You're totally right. I could, I could pull the plug right now, and you're right. I could totally walk. That's really Wow. What a realization. Thank you, Andrew. No, I did not do that on purpose. I certainly have set up things in a certain way where I guess I did it without realizing what I was doing. But yes, I always want things to be as simple as they possibly can be. I don't even have a CRM. I still operate on Google sheets with color coding, but it works, and it's extremely simple, and I have proof that it is scalable. So even though I don't have, like, 17 hats or whatever it is, I'm very, very comfortable with our processes, and you're totally right. Yeah, it's set up in a great way. Andrew Hellmich: It's amazing. But maybe I should have asked this question first, like, when you went into these, say, Washington or Chicago and saw the success that you could emulate that you're having in Wilmington, did you ever consider buying a studio or renting a long term studio in each of those places to have, you know, Marcus, Anthony, the brand, the photography brand around the country. Marcus Anthony: Yeah, that thought did cross my mind. So there was one city I did actually sign a lease in Washington, DC, kind of in the earlier, earlier, like in the middle of all this. And when I say middle, I mean, I've been doing this for about three years now, the pop up thing. So right around a year, year and a half in I did sign a short term lease in Washington, DC, but I was also well aware that it might like what happened in Wilmington and Charlotte might happen in Washington, DC. We just you know, you can only do so much volume in one city until the market dries up, because there's only so many people willing to pay X amount of dollars for high end photography at a time. And, yeah, it did. That did start to happen. I mean, so I learned my lesson three times. There's only so much milk in the cow, or whatever you want. Andrew Hellmich: That's true. Marcus Anthony: Yeah. Andrew Hellmich: You describe yourself as an entrepreneur these days, a marketer. And I would say there's a lot of entrepreneurs, certainly, to the podcast that I listen to about entrepreneurship, where someone wants to build something to a point where they can sell it. So is that an end goal for you, or is it I just want to hold on to this for as long as I can, while it's while it's working? Marcus Anthony: I have looked into that. Actually, Bernie encouraged me to look into that, and I did. The business right now is worth just under a million dollars, I've been told by two different business brokers. So that is on the table if I ever want to sort of pull the plug and walk away, or, or, you know, whatever, whatever hybrid version of that looks like. It is not necessarily a goal in the near term, but it's really nice to know that that is an option. Andrew Hellmich: Are you surprised at that valuation? I would have expected 3 million. Marcus Anthony: I had no idea what to expect when I reached out to these guys. I had zero idea, you know, because I think you had done an interview with somebody who'd sold their business a while back, and they sold it for, I want to say, like, 180,000 something like that. And at the time, that was just when I was kind of considering maybe selling mine, or at least finding out what it was worth. And when I heard that number, I was very surprised, kind of in the same way that you're surprised, like, I had no idea what her revenue was at the time, so I didn't really, I don't know, but to answer your question, no, because I didn't have any expectations. Andrew Hellmich: Right. Marcus Anthony: There is a whole world, they call it mergers and acquisitions, where people are buying and selling businesses that is a whole industry in and of itself, and generally in a service business, you can expect anywhere between two and three times your EBITDA, which is really just profit before taxes. Andrew Hellmich: Right. Marcus Anthony: And so for me, because I'm outsourcing so much, I have a lot of expenses. So even though, you know, 4 million a year sounds really, really good, the profit for the business is not as great as it like. If it was just Andrew making 4 million a year and doing the sales and the marketing and all this stuff, you know what I mean? Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. Yeah, so did the broker, if that's who you spoke to, or the person you spoke to get a valuation, did they say Marcus, if you really want to have a business that's going to be worth two or three or 4 million, you need to remove yourself totally from the business? Or did you get no such advice at the time? Marcus Anthony: No, they didn't really. I mean, they kind of, yeah, they asked questions around that. They're like, you know, everyone assumes if you're a photographer, that you're a photographer, meaning, like, when I first approached them, they thought, I'm the guy doing this, you know, and so when we dug into it a little more, they're like, Oh, you're not. You're working like, 20 hours a week or something on the back end of Facebook ad. So yeah, they had to understand that I was not a critical part of it, of the brand, even though it's my name. So yeah, so does that answer your question? Andrew Hellmich: Yeah it does. It does. Why did you decide to write the book, which, by the way, is called Unstoppable. And why did you not write it specifically for photographers? Marcus Anthony: So there's a really kind of an aha moment that I had maybe six months ago, and it was just like, are you familiar with the movie The Matrix? Andrew Hellmich: Yes. Marcus Anthony: Do you think most of the listeners have seen this would you say? Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. Everyone. Marcus Anthony: Okay. I'm gonna make it a metaphor really quick, basically, I saw the Matrix. So, you know, there's all these different pieces to business, there's marketing, there's sales, there's this, and there's that. And I just had this aha moment where one day I was kind of sitting there on the back end of Facebook, watching all the comments and just kind of seeing like how people are actually behaving. And it really just hit me how everything is interconnected. So the reason I wrote this book, it was really, it started out as just having a kind of a conversation with myself, which sounds really pretentious, but it was just kind of like, you know, how does business actually work? I've read so many business books, the listener probably has read a lot of these, if nothing else. I've listened to a lot of podcasts, and everybody has their opinion on a certain piece here and there. But how does it really all work together. And so that was the premise of kind of this thought experiment, really. And then it turned into like a Word document, and then it turned into like 50 pages of a Word document. And then I'm like, Okay, I got something here. Let me actually, I've never written a book before, and with technology, it's so easy to do nowadays to really get a clear idea of what's going on in your head. So I was just head. So I was just kind of brain dumping all this stuff on a Word document, and before I knew it, I had like a nine, kind of nine step or nine phase framework of the different pieces of business. But it's not like nine separate steps. It's one step leading into the second step leading into the third step. But then the fourth step only happens because the first step happened, you know. So that's the long winded answer to your to your question, why did I write a book? It was just kind of like, yeah. Marcus Anthony: It was really just a it was a thought dump that turned into a book. So you never really set out to write a book for photographers to help them improve their business. Marcus Anthony: No, no, I really didn't. No. It just turned into, you know, because before I know it, I had so much information. And it wasn't just like a blog or something a short article. It was really a philosophy. I think of it as a philosophy. And the reason I say I saw the Matrix is because it's not like this only applies to photography. It really does apply to almost all businesses, at least almost all service businesses. I will make that distinction, because e commerce and products are a little bit different. But you know, for the most part, if you can really boil it down, a service business is all about attracting attention, getting leads, converting those leads into customers, converting those customers. Dollars into sales and then rinsing and repeating, and that's as simple as it can possibly get. And it's not like only photographers are doing that, or only landscapers are doing that, you know. So that's why it's more of a general thing instead of photography. Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So the listener can download the book and it's for free, right? It's a free book? Marcus Anthony: It's a free book. Yeah, I made it all pretty on a program called Typeset. So it's an e-book format for now. I might print it later, but, you know, I don't really have an incentive to do that. So it looks really good on any device, iPhone, but yeah, yeah, it's a free book. Just need your name and email, and you can download it for free. Andrew Hellmich: All right. So for the listener, the easiest way to get this book if you go to PhotobizX.com forward slash Marcus, it's M-A-R-C-U-S, so PhotobizX.com/Marcus. You can enter your details there and download the book, which I've got to say, is a super easy read. It's pretty amazing, mate, like it's you can apply everything in there, obviously, to a photography business, even though it wasn't written for photographers. I do want to dive into some other aspects that you cover in the book. And also, I do want to dive deeply into Facebook ads if we've got time, because I know the listener is going to be dying to hear about those. But one of the things in your book, and that I hear from a lot of other entrepreneurs, is one of the ways, one of the biggest things we want to do to attract a lead is to solve a problem, like we always hear that, but then when I think about photography, we're not really solving a problem. We're supplying something beautiful for the family. Do you still see it as solving a problem for our client? Marcus Anthony: Yeah, I do, and I totally know what you're saying. I don't want to, like, gloss over what you just said, because it is a very important distinction. There are many, many businesses that are maybe more luxury focused, or it's like disposable income only kind of purchase, and I think photography would fall into that category. But I think again, my brain is all about making things as simple as possible, so I have to categorize everything. And in order to do that, there has to be as few categories as possible. So yes, we are solving a problem. In a sense you could kind of, you know, semantics, but, but yeah, we are solving the problem. Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So what's the problem? Because I know that if I know that if I hire an electrician or a plumber or a landscaper or all service based businesses, I'm usually getting there. I'm getting them in to solve a problem. It could be to pretty something up, but it's generally to solve a problem. But what problem do you see us solving? Or you solving? Marcus Anthony: For me, it's scratching an emotional itch. So I think when somebody kind of comes across an ad or your website, or really gets kind of brought into your world as a photographer, I think that they are in a certain place in their life, whether they know it or not. It could be totally subconscious, but they're looking for connection, I think, or, you know, they want to preserve a memory. It really, for me, it's that simple. So it's not like there. I mean, there's exceptions, of course, but for me, my customers, I don't think most of them, are walking in and thinking, I want a 60 inch portrait on this place in my house. I think there are photographers that scratch that itch. But for me, personally, and I think the majority of photographers, it's very kind of, it's, it's like a whimsical process, almost. It's not really like black and white for most of my clients. Anyway. I don't know about yours, but I think, you know, I think, I think they're just kind of scratching an emotional itch. Andrew Hellmich: I believe it's the same thing with my clients. With most listeners clients, would it be the same thing. But you know, when I look at your Facebook ads, or when you create your Facebook ads, do you feel like you're trying to scratch that itch, or it's more about having the offer and the hook and the scarcity? Are they the things that are getting people to take action? Is it because they're trying to scratch that, that emotional itch? Marcus Anthony: Yeah, so for a luxury product like what we offer, what most photographers offer. I think you need to break down the process a lot more granularly than just Oh. They want to feel an emotion, so I'm here to solve that for them. So when it comes to the ad, the ad is there purely to get them to click to the next step. And so when you have an ad for me, for my ads, it's simply just, oh, I want to stop the scroll. I want somebody who's mindlessly scrolling through nonsense on Facebook to be like, Oh, this is a cool picture of a dog. And oh, I have a dog. And you know what I mean, and just start that thought process in their mind. And so it's, it's strictly to pique their curiosity and then get them to take the next logical step, which is to click on the link to learn more. And then in the next step in the process is to educate them a little bit about what we do and what the offer is. And the offer is a free photography session with no obligation to buy anything with their dog for, we specialize in dogs. I don't know if that's clear, but we do, you know, and you can apply this to any genre, but that's just what we do. That's what I'm saying. So, yeah, so you're kind of taking them on a journey. And you know, initially, though, when they see the ad, none of this is on their mind. They're not like, ready to buy photos of their dog. They're just kind of like, we're taking them on a journey. And then, you know that journey for us is a fairly long process. So it allows us to have a lot of touch points and a lot of education and a lot of building value, which is, I think the number one skill that you need to have in business in 2025 is offering value as cheaply and as frictionless as possible. Andrew Hellmich: So what's the value? Is it the fact they're getting a free session with a credit or is it the fact they get to come and have this experience. Marcus Anthony: Yeah. Andrew Hellmich: That's the value. Marcus Anthony: Yeah that's the value. It's simple as that. They're like, Oh, why wouldn't I go and have my photos taken for free, with no obligation to buy any photos. If I want to buy the photos, I'll buy the photos. Yes, no, maybe I, you know, it's all just kind of very like wavy baby, you know, they're just like floating along, and we're making it as easy as possible for them. And you know, more often than not, when it comes time to buy, they buy. Andrew Hellmich: So is there any hard sell? Are you one of the studios where, oh, you don't like that photo of the dog, of your dog, and you tear it up in front of them and say, Okay, what about this one? Marcus Anthony: No, no, are people still doing that?   Sign up to listen to the Premium Version https://photobizx.com/premium-membership   Andrew Hellmich: Love it. Mate, the book is called Unstoppable. I shouldn't tell you that. I should tell the listener. The book is called Unstoppable. Go and get it. It's free, like Marcus said, like, it's, yeah, he's amazing. The book will be a fantastic read, like I said, I've skimmed through it, and I'm gonna go back and read it. It's that good, and it's a super easy read. You can get it at PhotobizX.com/marcus, M-A-R-C-U-S. I'll also have links to where you can find Marcus online in the show notes, where this audio is hosted. Just before I let you go. Marcus, yeah, I saw the tattoo while you're talking, there on your I think it's on your fingers. Was it a tattoo? What have you got there? Marcus Anthony: Yeah, yeah, I have two things. There you go. One's a heart. Andrew Hellmich: I can see the love heart, and the other one a lightning bolt. What is the other one? I-A? Marcus Anthony: It's L-A. Andrew Hellmich: L A Marcus Anthony: Which is where I met my wife. So, yeah, the heart is for being married, obviously. And then the LA is Los Angeles. That's where my wife and I met, like, 12 years ago, or something Andrew Hellmich: I thought was gonna be something entrepreneurial, like Frank Kern has Marcus Anthony: No, no, I'm gonna do that on my face probably soon. You know, marketing, you can't be subtle, Andrew Hellmich: But I was surprised. So like you're a clean cut. Yeah, awesome guy. I don't want to say tattoos don't make you awesome. I just didn't picture you as a tattoo kind of guy. If you take your shirt off, is it going to be tattoos all over your body? Marcus Anthony: I don't know. I have like, a couple on my shoulders. It's nothing crazy, but yeah, definitely from here to here is clean cut. For now. Andrew Hellmich: For now. Marcus Anthony: Yeah. Andrew Hellmich: Marcus, mate, it's been so good to have you back on. Congratulations on your success. It's just it is mind blowing to even try and think about the numbers that you're doing and how you've done it. You're an inspiration. And wow, I can't wait to hear the feedback from the listener. So thank you so much again for coming back to share what you have. Marcus Anthony: Yeah, thank you for having me. I can't wait to see the feedback either. Just really quick. Do you remember back in 2019 when we did the first interview, there were a couple people in the comments who just flat out did not believe anything. I said. Andrew Hellmich: Yes. Marcus Anthony: I went back. Yeah. You remember that? I went back and I saw you going back and forth with them in a very nice way, but like it was, it was just hilarious. So I can't wait to see what people think about this. Andrew Hellmich: The funny thing about that was it wasn't listeners that didn't believe it because I made your interview, I think I created a Facebook ad around your interview Marcus Anthony: Oh Andrew Hellmich: And shared some things that you shared in the ad copy, and straight away, people just flat out the saying, this is BS. There's no way a photographer's doing this. It was funny, so I'll try and find that and link to it in the show notes. Marcus Anthony: Okay, sounds good. Andrew Hellmich: What are they going to say now? Marcus Anthony: I don't know. Who knows. I can't wait to see, though. Andrew Hellmich: Well, Marcus, look thanks again. Mate. Really appreciate it. Marcus Anthony: Yeah, thanks for making the time. Scroll back to top Sign up to receive email updates Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast. powered by The post 618: Marcus Anthony – Offers, Not Products: Rethinking How You Sell Photography appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area Tom Trevatt of www.tomtrevatt.com and I have been exchanging emails since 2021, when he completed the little questionnaire on the PhotoBizX website to receive some personalised interview suggestions. At the time, he was into headshot photography, working part-time as a photographer, and looking to attract more clients. In 2022, he told me, “Business was going well. I’ve had quite a profitable few months and am considering moving into a much bigger studio – it’ll be a big move and quite expensive, but I think it will be worth it in the long term.” Two years later, in 2024, I heard another update from Tom… I have now had two decent studios in central London and have grown the business to six figures. However, right now I am in the process of building out a small home studio to replace the separate studio, as I want to keep more of the revenue I make rather than let my studio landlord have it! I have also decided to drop below the VAT threshold of £90k for this next year or two in order to grow the business's reputation without such a massive tax liability. For me, this business was never about trying to make as much money as possible but about giving me the kind of life I want to lead—for the time being, that's perfectly possible under 90k. Finally, in 2025, I had this update from Tom, “At the end of last year, I secured a contract to photograph 530 lawyers at a global law firm, and it has had a life and business-changing impact. The contract itself is worth over £200k and will likely include ongoing updates to pick up the new hires every month, so over the next few years, the value of this one customer may exceed half a million!” So, within the first two months of the year, I’ve smashed past that VAT threshold of 90k and am careening towards a turnover this year of £300k or more, which is wild to me. In this interview, Tom shares how a $200k contract changed everything in his headshot photography business. Here's some more of what we covered in the interview: From part-time to full-time: How Tom turned a side hustle into a six-figure studio Are UK headshot photographers falling behind? A frank look at the market From uni halls to studio walls — how a lockdown pivot became a thriving business Running a business and staying creative? Tom’s figured out how to do both Why blending in with your headshots is costing you — and what to do instead Actors want standout headshots — but are you keeping up with what they expect? Want to rank on page one of Google? Tom used a podcast to get there Fast shoots = forgettable photos. Why slowing down has been Tom’s game changer Still undercharging? Tom shares how he priced for profit (and stuck with it) Burnout’s real — here’s why Tom caps his sessions and brought in a studio manager Corporate clients want the best and a deal — how to deliver without losing out Google, Instagram, word-of-mouth — what’s actually working to bring in clients Why mentoring isn’t just good for the industry — it’s good for business too What’s on Offer for Premium Members If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet. Plus, special member-only interviews. At the end of last year, I secured a contract to photograph 530 lawyers at a global law firm, and it has had a life and business changing impact. The contract itself is worth over 200,000 pounds and will likely include ongoing updates to pick up new hires every month. So over the next few years, the value of this one customer may exceed half a million pounds. So within the first two months of the year, I've smashed past the VAT threshold of 90k and I'm careening towards a turnover this year of over 300,000 pounds, which is wild to me. – Tom Trevatt You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online. Seriously, that's not all. The about me or about us page of a website can be and should be thought of as a marketing opportunity. – Tom Trevatt In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business. What is your big takeaway? Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Tom shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode. For me, this business was never about trying to make as much money as possible, but about giving me the kind of life I want to lead for the time being that's perfectly possible under 90k. – Tom Trevatt If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Tom, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below. How to Sell Like a Mofo – One class down, one to go. It's not too late to join us! If you’ve ever said “I hate selling”… this one’s for you. No sleazy tactics. No pushy scripts.Just a real-world sales process that works — taught by a working photographer who's doing this every day. (Yep, the same legend behind “Advertise Like a Mofo” – Richard Grenfell is back.) This live 2-part training is made for photographers who want to: Feel confident on sales calls (even if you hate the phone) Sell more, without sounding salesy Set up your shoot to sell more images before you even pick up the camera Handle objections, talk pricing, and walk clients through the sale with ease Session 2: Thursday May 22 @ 8am AEST Replays available if you can’t make it live Just USD$397 (price doubles after the live calls) Register early and get “Advertise Like a Mofo” FREE (normally USD$197) or another awesome Masterclass. Head here for all the details and to grab your spot: https://learn.photobizx.com/sell-like-a-mofo/ If you’re a working photographer and want to sell more without selling your soul — this training is for you. Sales With Fundy – One tool, one workflow, one game-changing training! If you’re still running your sales sessions from Lightroom or a gallery… you’re missing out. Big time. This FREE live workshop is your shortcut to higher sales, smoother sessions, and happier clients — using Fundy Designer. No pressure. No salesy tactics.Just a proven workflow taught by John Glaser who use it to sell $3K+ orders every day. (You’ve heard John on the podcast. Now he’s teaming up with me to show you exactly how he does it.) This live training is made for photographers who want to: Turn “just digitals” into wall art buyers Follow a step-by-step sales system that works Create emotional, high-impact presentations Feel confident selling—without being pushy or awkward Live Class: Thirsday, May 29 @ 6am AEST (click here for your local) Can’t make it live? Replay included 100% free – but spots are limited Download Fundy and follow along live with your own photos Grab your spot here: https://learn.photobizx.com/sales-with-fundy/ Stop leaving money on the table. Build a sales system that works. iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons. Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome! Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show. I've now had two decent studios in central London and have grown the business to six figures. However, right now, I'm in the process of building out a small home studio… I've also decided to drop below the VAT threshold… for the next year or two, in order to grow the reputation of the business without such a massive tax liability. – Tom Trevatt If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name. Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them. The way that Google looks at the website is that it is useful to a person interested in what I'm talking about… as far as I understand, the way the SEO works these days is that it's trying as best as it can to rank websites that are good for a person to look at, not for a robot to look at. – Tom Trevatt Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​ Here is the latest review… ★★★★★ Love This Podcast and Andrew's Emails Via Google Reviews by Oklahoma family and newborn photographer Charis Kaufman in the USA on May 16th, 2025. Love this podcast and Andrew's emails so much. He is an encouraging and inquisitive interviewer. I appreciate how he asks so many questions and gets into the nitty gritty of things. Very educational and helpful, and the interviews of all genres give lots of good info for any photographer. Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode: Tom Trevatt Website Tom Trevatt on Instagram Tom Trevatt on LinkedIn Tom Trevatt on Facebook 362: Tony Taafe – Build a profitable headshot photography business by allowing clients to spend more 564: Matt Badenoch – Follow your street photography passion as a working wedding photographer You've got to have a content channel, whatever that content channel is, you've got to be fully on board with some kind of content channel. – Tom Trevatt Thank you! Big thanks to Tom for coming on the show and being so generous with his time and story. It’s been a real privilege to follow his journey over the past few years—from that first email to where he is now. I hope the interview was packed with takeaways and ideas for you to use in your own photography business. You can get good photographs in a short amount of time, but you don't get beautiful, insightful or communicative photographs in that time. And what I really care about is building people's career opportunities. – Tom Trevatt That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business! Thanks, and speak soon Andrew Episode Transcript Email Download New Tab 617: Tom Trevatt - How a $200k Contract Changed Everything in His Headshot Business    Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest and I have been exchanging emails since 2021 when he completed the little questionnaire on the PhotobizX website to receive some personalized interview suggestions. Now, at the time, he was into headshot photography, working part time as a photographer, and looking to attract more clients. Then in 2022, a year later, he told me, business was going well. He said, at the time, "I've had quite a profitable few months, and I'm considering moving into a much bigger studio. It'll be a big move and quite expensive, but I think it'll be worth it in the long term". Two years later, in 2024 I heard another update. He said, "I've now had two decent studios in central London and have grown the business to six figures. However, right now, I'm in the process of building out a small home studio to replace the separate studio, as I want to keep more of the revenue I make, rather than let my studio landlord have it, I've also decided to drop below the VAT threshold, that's the tax threshold of 90,000 pounds, for the next year or two, in order to grow the reputation of the business without such a massive tax liability". And he said, which I loved, "For me, this business was never about trying to make as much money as possible, but about giving me the kind of life I want to lead for the time being that's perfectly possible under 90k", and finally, in 2025 this year, I had this update from Tom. "At the end of last year, I secured a contract to photograph 530 lawyers at a global law firm, and it has had a life and business changing impact. The contract itself is worth over 200,000 pounds and will likely include ongoing updates to pick up new hires every month. So over the next few years, the value of this one customer may exceed half a million pounds. So within the first two months of the year, I've smashed past the VAT threshold of 90k and I'm careening towards a turnover this year of over 300,000 pounds", which is wild to me. I'm talking about the super talented and very busy Tom Trevatt, and I'm rapt to have him with us now. Tom, welcome. Tom Trevatt: Andrew, thank you very much for having me. It's been a long time coming. We've been exchanging emails for a while. I think you were the, probably the first podcast that I started listening to when I started my photography journey. And I still listen, at least, well, nearly every week, still to what you're putting out. And it's really fantastic. I think the major reason why I've enjoyed listening to what you do is because I listen to success stories. I hear people being successful from all over the world in this kind of, well, not just obviously portraiture, headshot photography, of course, there's wedding photographers, there's other sorts of photographers, pet photographers, who seem to have a lot of, and it's great just to hear kind of people have levels of success that you just didn't think possible before you stepped into this industry. So it's great to have that kind of experience. So thank you. Andrew Hellmich: That's so good. Did you feel that, or did you have the impression that it was even harder in the UK than, say, in America or in in Australia? Tom Trevatt: Yeah, I think so, certainly, from people I speak to, the environment feels very different. I've got a lot of contacts all around the world in the headshot game, mostly in the States and, well, North America, so the United States and Canada. And certainly, it feels a little bit easier to make kind of the large figures in North America than it does in the UK. Not really sure about Australia. It's a little bit of an unknown quantity to me. But yeah, certainly there are studios doing very well in the UK, but I think there's a lot of people not doing exceptionally, exceptionally well, if that makes sense, it could be to do with location potentially. Andrew Hellmich: Well, yeah, that's interesting. So when you hear an interview with, say, a successful headshot photographer based in the US or in Canada. Do you automatically, are you thinking, "Oh, well, no wonder they're successful, they're in the States"? Tom Trevatt: To some extent. But I mean, one of the reasons why I think they're successful in the States is because people, like people who work in a kind of corporate environment or business environment in the US, recognize they need photographs of themselves, and they need very professionally taken photographs themselves. And so, you know, you pop onto a website of, let's say, a law firm, and they've all got their very sort of smiley, toothy grins, very well taken, well-lit photographs. It's not always the case in the UK. I go on to, you know, I was on a very, very sort of website of a VFX company that's at the top of their game the other day. We're having, I was having a call with them, and I was looking at their headshots, and at least three of the senior management team were photographs taken with iPhones, you know, selfies against a white wall. And it just, it feels like that wouldn't lie in the States. So probably there's a, there's a kind of a greater level of value given to the kind of professionalized image. Andrew Hellmich: So with that particular website that, do you say VFX? Is that Video FX? Tom Trevatt: So, yeah, like, kind of, if you imagine a CGI scene in a big film, they do that. So they're the kind of top of their game. Andrew Hellmich: Right. Big company, okay. So were you employed to photograph the heads, or were you just on their website? Tom Trevatt: I was having a phone call with them as a kind of inquiry before I submitted a quote. Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So did you, or did you find out why they're asking for new headshots now? Or did they get some bad feedback or something? Tom Trevatt: Maybe they got some bad feedback, one of the things I always say to them when I have these kind of conversations, is that the About Me or About Us page of a website can be and should be thought of as a marketing opportunity, because it tells a story about who the people are that work in that company. Tell the story about, you know, what type of person you might be working with, doesn't tell a very good story if it's just a iPhone selfie, does it? So, you know. Andrew Hellmich: Agree, agree. Mate, let me take you back to 20. When did you start? Was it 2019, did you say? Tom Trevatt: Uh, no, I started just in the middle of the pandemic. So I finished my PhD in 2020. Right as we hit the first lockdown here in the UK. I submitted my PhD, and at that time, I'd been DJing as a side hustle, and I was like, "What the hell am I going to do with my next six months to year, however long?" And because I'd done a Photography Art Foundation over 20 years previously, I was like, "Well, maybe photography is something I can do". Picked up a camera and started going out and doing street photography the first year, obviously, we're all in lockdown. You can't, you know, do any kind of people into a studio or close proximity. So, you know, empty streets look quite fun and interesting that someone has just got them with their hands on a new camera. So, yeah, I spent a year doing that, and then the following year, in May 2021, I opened up the business, really. Andrew Hellmich: And what was the PhD in? Tom Trevatt: Art. Art and Politics. Andrew Hellmich: Well, okay, so did you, I mean, did you foresee a career in that line of work? Tom Trevatt: I started my PhD with the idea that I was going to go into academia, and I still am. I teach at university, and I've taught at the University. I teach out, which is Goldsmiths in London. I've taught there for 12 years, 13 years, and have taught in total somewhere in the region of 17-18, years in total, in universities. And I love it. It's fantastic. It's just that from the start of my PhD to the end of my PhD, the landscape of academia changed quite drastically in the UK. A lot of universities lost funding, lots of funding cuts, various different kind of mismanagement. My university in particular, has been pretty badly managed. I don't want to get into it because it's a long conversation, but the landscape changed so significantly that I recognized that there wasn't really an opportunity to make a career in academia in the way that there had been maybe a decade previously. So I made the decision that I would stay in academia, but it would just become something that was something like it feels almost like a hobby now, which is hilarious, because I've done a BA, an MA and a PhD, and now teaching at university feels a little bit like a hobby, but what it means is that I've got this kind of other thing I love doing that takes me a little bit away from the photography, but the photography supports my life financially. I don't have to worry about academia being the place that I get the money from. Andrew Hellmich: So where do you get to be creative? Is it in academia or the photography? Tom Trevatt: In both. Andrew Hellmich: Okay, that's nice. So you do you feel like, like with your photography business, I mean, it sounds like it's hugely successful, and we'll get into that, but it's, I mean, it's a real business. Do you feel like a business operator, or do you feel like a photographer? Tom Trevatt: A bit of both. I think, without really planning it this way, I have got very interested in, "How do you market a business? How do you run a business? How do you build a brand? How do you build an identity?". You know, those kinds of things, partly because listening to you interview these amazing guests, week in, week out. But also, you know, I think probably every week since I started, I would watch, listen to read multiple things about running businesses and marketing and branding and so on. This year is the year that I get on top of the finances. So I actually just started working with an amazing business coach, and she is helping me with all the kind of, you know, understanding all of the kind of tax and finance aspects of running a business, which has been, because it's not stuff you really kind of get taught. And obviously, when you're there by yourself, you're like, "Well, I don't really want to look at the numbers stuff. I want to look at all the fun things, like, how do I market my company?". So yeah, I do feel like I'm running a business, but at the same time, like, the thing I get most excited about is taking beautiful photographs. Andrew Hellmich: Right. And we haven't really talked about your photography, but I mean, I look at your Instagram feed and even your website, to some extent, but particularly your Instagram feed, where it looks like you're adding sort of more of your creative or artistic work that are still headshots, and the work is absolutely fantastic, like it's you come across as a true photographer when I look at that feed, whereas when I look at some headshot photography business websites, it's very corporatized. They look fantastic, they're well lit, they're beautiful, but I wouldn't say they're overly creative, where your headshots on your Instagram and some of your website are. So do you feel like you purposely broken away from that traditional headshot photographer mold? Tom Trevatt: Yeah, I think so, to some extent. I feel the way that I've done this is somewhat purposeful. On the one hand, it's to fulfill my need, creative need, you know, I don't want to say that I take photographs that look like cardboard cutouts or whatever. And, you know, I want to take photographs that people feel something about when they look at, whether that's of themselves or whether that's of other people. And, you know, I want to create kind of connections with those photographs. So there's a story that comes out of it by doing these things. And yeah, you know, a lot of the work that I've been doing recently, over the past couple of months, has been even more creative. I've been sort of throwing movement in there, and some kind of things that could be like, close to dance photography, those kinds of things, mostly just to satisfy that kind of creative itch that we all have, and I've got the capacity to do so, you know, I don't show on the Instagram, certainly, I don't show any of the corporate work that I do, because Instagram feels to me to be a kind of more of a scrapbook, notebook kind of place, rather than necessarily trying to sell, you know, "This is the thing that I can do for you", and maybe more artists and creative types follow me on Instagram like actors. So, you know, a good portion of my clients are actors. You know, 50% of my clients are actors. The other 50% are kind of, you know, creative business owners, public speakers, lecturers, writers, therapists, those kinds of things. So they also like the creative side of the photography. You know, they come to me because of that. Andrew Hellmich: Right. But is there any fear then that say the law firm that I mentioned in the intro, which sounds like a huge contract, a huge opportunity for you. Is there any fear that you know, a company like that comes to your website and says, "Oh, this guy's a bit left to feel like he's almost a bit too arty for us?". Tom Trevatt: Yeah, it's possible. I mean, you know.. Andrew Hellmich: I mean, obviously they didn't. Tom Trevatt: Yeah. I mean, they hired me for their own reasons, and I know that the person who was taking some photographs for them the year before me was a fashion photographer who had, like, a massive outfit, you know, like, I don't know, like a 10 person strong team going in there, and that was, I think, for them, they wanted something that felt a bit creative, but that was maybe overkill. So they came to me, and it's like, my team's like a three person strong team with me, my assistants and hair and makeup. And it's like, that's all you really need. Andrew Hellmich: Since can't be, I mean, it sounds like they invest a lot in photography, if they've only had their headshots done two or months ago. Now they're bringing you in to do the same. Tom Trevatt: So they had a kind of test session with a small number of their team previously, and then reassessed, and then brought me in. So they hadn't got the kind of full gamut of the whole team taken at that point. I think maybe 15 people were photographed previously, and then they changed their mind. I don't know the story. I just know that there was somebody else before me, so it gives me some inclination that they actually wanted to be creative, because they were hiring people who were more creative, rather than the kind of your kind of corporate style headshot photographer. Andrew Hellmich: But that being said, that is not every company. Tom Trevatt: Sure, sure, like you know, 90% of the people who call me, they say they want something a little bit creative, but when the quote comes in, they don't reply, you know. You know what's probably happened. Andrew Hellmich: Yes. All right, we'll explore a little bit more with pricing in a minute. You mentioned there that you know 50% of your clients are made up of actors, and I think other creators, you said. I was under the impression I hear from other headshot photographers that actors are a terrible target market to go after because they've got no money. Have you found the opposite? Tom Trevatt: I mean, there's an awful lot of hedgehog photographers in London specializing in actors. Obviously, London's a very, very big market for that, but I wouldn't say they've got no money. I mean, I would say that they're motivated to get good quality work, because they recognize that they can make or break their career based on a small handful of so called marketing collateral. So one of the most important thing being their headshot. So I think that you know, if someone comes to me, they recognize that they are spending a bit of, you know, quite a chunk of change, really. It's not your kind of "Come in for 50 minutes, change your T shirt twice, and bug off", kind of thing. You know, my sessions are long. So the actor market ebbs and flows. And I'm part of a WhatsApp group that's full of headshot photographers, and we've been talking about how the actor market has dropped off recently, and that is due to a lot of factors, you know. Various streaming services apparently have cut their budgets. You know, there was a SAG-AFTRA strikes. There's been all sorts of, sort of changes in the US, and that does have an impact on what's happening over here as well. And of course, yeah, like, a very, very large percentage of actors are working in McDonald's or whatever, to, you know, make ends meet, while they become successful. But at the same time, a lot of my clients are in shows. They're in some form of production, you know, they're coming to me, and then they're going straight away after this to do a stage production of something, so they're working, you know, I don't think it's as bleak as maybe it might seem from the outside. Andrew Hellmich: And again, I mean, I'm guilty of this because I've interviewed so many headshot photographers based in the US. Maybe it's more in the US that I see that or I get that feeling. But yeah, certainly sounds different from your side. Tom Trevatt: I think that might just be that. If you run a business, you can put it on the company credit card, you know, or, you know, if you run a business, you recognize what marketing spend is, you know. You and I, we can sit there and you can say, "Okay, I can rationalize spending X amount of money on this new piece of whatever it is, because it means that it helps my business." But with somebody who's, you know, two years into acting, or straight out of university, or whatever it is, it's not quite the same rationalization process. They know they need to get headshots, but they don't necessarily go, "Okay, what's the step between a getting a good headshot and getting that role? Is this photographer as good as this photographer? “Maybe. You know, whereas you know, you might say, "Actually, there are." Yeah, you might say that there's some kind of benefit from working with somebody that is, you know, from what I would suggest is that people look at the way that your values overlap. And, you know, let's say someone comes to my website, and they go, "Oh, I really like the way that that person, you know, he works with them for a long period of time, rather than just for like, an hour and a half or whatever." So, yeah, I don't know, I don't know if I've seen but I saw a drop off a little bit at the end of last year, but it seems to have picked up a little bit again this year. Andrew Hellmich: Ebbs and flows. Tom Trevatt: I couldn't tell you exactly. It's difficult to get a real, real clear overview of the entire industry just from being one tiny little portion of it. Andrew Hellmich: Sure, sure. Let me ask you about the VAT threshold. And like we all have different tax thresholds in the countries that we live in, but the UK VAT threshold seems to be a little bit more severe. There's so many photographers out there that I've interviewed that like they're desperately doing everything they can to be as close to the threshold without going over it so and I think in the intro and you told me that it's 90,000 pounds, the way I understand it, which is sounds crazy to me, is that if you go over 90,000 pounds, then you're taxed on everything you made, including up to that 90,000 pounds. Tom Trevatt: Yeah Andrew Hellmich: Rather than just everything above it, is that right? Tom Trevatt: Yes. So unlike other forms of taxation, where it is kind of over the threshold taxation with VAT, it's once you hit that threshold, you get taxed on everything. This is not financial advice. Andrew Hellmich: Sure, sure. Tom Trevatt: I'm not a tax consultant, and my knowledge of this is not as good as it possibly could be, but yeah, you are kind of clear of VAT up until that 90 and then after that, you do have to pay 20% on everything. Obviously, what VAT is is essentially moving money around, because then obviously, once you become VAT registered, you can claim VAT back off your purchases, but you're still paying a significant amount of tax. It might end up being less than 20% because you're able to claw back some of it from, say, buying a computer, buying a camera, those kinds of things. But it is a very frustrating and it's a flat tax as well. It's not a progressive tax. It doesn't go up like 5% 10% 15% it goes straight from zero to 20, which is a frustrating leap. So you need to go from 90 to 150k in a big leap. Andrew Hellmich: 150, why not just 110? Tom Trevatt: To make sense of the kind of the difference in those two, those two figures, it feels to me like you'd have to have that significant jump, because you'd almost be working, it's almost like a figure way. It's like, "Oh, I could, I could go to 110 but then I'm just getting the same money for, you know, 20% more work. So why not put in 50% more work and get to that kind of the slightly better figure where you're taking home a bit more money?" I guess it's one of those calculations or juggles that we all do at some point and we make decisions whether we're going to go above it or not, and I had chosen not to, until I got this good contract. Andrew Hellmich: Right. So it's just interesting to hear you voice what you just said, because in my head, I'm thinking, "Okay, I've just got to get to 110, which is a stretch, but it's not a massive stretch from 90". Tom Trevatt: Yeah Andrew Hellmich: But in your head, you're thinking, "I've got to get to 150 to really make it worthwhile." Tom Trevatt: To make the extra effort worthwhile, I think you have to kind of, 150 is not a hard and fast number. It was just a figure I had kind of in my head when I was doing the calculations. That was like, "Well, then yeah, okay, I can afford to continue running the business in exactly the same way as I was doing before, having the studio and those kinds of things." But yeah, 110 yes, but to really, kind of get the benefit out of that jump, you want to go a little bit higher I think. Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, that makes sense. So in my head, I was thinking, "Okay, anything over 110 is cream. But really, I mean, to get to 150 you're talking about staff, probably more premises like, it is a big jump, isn't it? Tom Trevatt: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a, yeah, it's another kind of 50% on top of what you're doing at the moment, but not unachievable with a little ratcheting up of, you know, various things. Interesting, talking about staff I had bought on just before I got this big contract. I'd bought on a studio manager. She wasn't part of the conversations that led to this big contract, but her role had specifically been, she been brought on for was outreach, to reach out to these large corporations. Because, you know, it's all very well kind of saying, "I'll just be there on Google, and they can find me, and they can contact me", but unless they know that you exist, you know you can be left, left in the dust. And so her role was to reach out to these large firms, and she actually put a list together of these, like, 100 of these. Like, you know, she did a law degree, so she's got a bit of a kind of background in law, and she put together a list all these firms. And I called her up, like, you know, two weeks after she'd kind of started putting this list together, like, "By the way, this company just called me. They're on your list. Do you know them?" She's like, "Oh, yeah", you know, "Damn yes, they are." They're part of what's called, in the law parlance, the magic circle, or something like the top kind of four or five law firms in the country. So, yeah, she was blown away by that as well. She insisted that she manifested it. Andrew Hellmich: So did you actively target that particular law firm, or was that just purely by happenstance? Tom Trevatt: No, no, just completely by happenstance, yeah. Andrew Hellmich: So someone in their firm came across your website, or was it a referral? Or do you know how you got the inquiry? Tom Trevatt: I'm number one on Google if you type in 'London headshot photographer', I ranked number one. So I presume that they came across the website that way, they probably would have contacted other photographers as well, but we had a nice phone call and hit it off. So got the contract. Andrew Hellmich: Okay, that was a bit of a show stopping statement there. How did you get London headshot photographer to rank one? How are you ranking number one in Google for that? What have you done? Tom Trevatt: I have done a podcast. Andrew Hellmich: Right. So was this strategic? Were you going after that keyword phrase, and did you know the competition you would be facing? Tom Trevatt: To a degree, yeah, so I had written, I'd done my website, I'd done all the kind technical SEO on the back end. So it's a Squarespace website, so it's very, you know, straightforward kind of stuff. I've done all the technical SEO, and then I knew that I needed content. That was the only way, really that you're going to get either content or backlinks. And I didn't really fancy going through and trying to get loads of backlinks from people and those sorts of things. So it was the content route. And it feels to me that the content route is a little bit more productive in terms of getting that placement on Google. But at the same time, it's also, I like it, I like the kind of interactions that you can have with people, all the kinds of you know, the way that content actually does feed people into your community, into your circle. So yeah, I put together 10 episodes of a podcast, put it out, and within a few months, I've gone from page three, you know, good page two now and again, to ranking number one by being like, two months after the last podcast came out. Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely amazing, mate. So a couple of questions on that. First of all, have you seen a massive change to the number of inquiries since you started ranking number one. Tom Trevatt: I think that the ranking number one coincided with a massive dip in the market, yeah. Andrew Hellmich: Great timing. Tom Trevatt: So, yeah, really, really, great timing. Everyone was saying the end of last year was incredibly slow, but this year has, I've definitely seen, since New Year, I've seen a larger increase in the number of inquiries. It's got to the point where I'm struggling a little bit to keep on top of the admin, hence why the studio manager is coming on board. So, you know, obviously right now, because I've got that law firm job and I've kind of booked out the calendar two months in advance with individual shoots. I'm at the point now where I can't take on any more work until mid June, which is a nice place to be, but it also means I've got to kind of field those kinds of emails which are like, "Oh, I really want to work with you. Have you got an opportunity to work in with, you know, the next two weeks?" I'm like, can she wait till June? You know, those kind of conversations so. Andrew Hellmich: And just for the listener, we're recording in mid April. Tom Trevatt: Yeah. Andrew Hellmich: So you're booked out the rest of April, all of May, and you've got till mid-June? Tom Trevatt: Yeah Andrew Hellmich: Wow, fantastic. That's a great place to be. Tom Trevatt: There's also a holiday or tournaments for all of that as well. Andrew Hellmich: Great. So it's good you still have the lifestyle that you were trying to create. Tom Trevatt: Exactly. Yeah. Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, that is good. A couple of things, so with the podcast, it's not predominantly headshot photographers. You're not only talking about headshot photography, it's actually it's called Photography Adjacent. You're talking to photographers, artists, writers like, so that content. So how's that helping you rank for headshot photographer London? Tom Trevatt: My feeling about this is, is the way that Google looks at the website is that it is useful to a person interested in what I'm talking about. And so if they can click through onto a number of different pages and find some information, there's a lot of things pointing towards that website, in terms of, you know, YouTube videos, Spotify, Apple podcasts, they're pointing towards the website. But as far as I understand, the way the SEO works these days is that it's trying as best as it can to rank websites that are good for a person to look at, not for a robot to look at. So if the content is engaging to a person, is written in an engaging way, is posed in a way that people want to read it and read more, then they're more likely to stay on that page and get more information out of it. And so I guess that having video, audio and the transcripts from the podcast on the website, that all builds towards having, you know, better SEO. And if I'm honest, what SEO is just competition against a handful of people in your space, and I'm out competing people on content production is what's happening, essentially. Andrew Hellmich: Right. And because you're recording regularly, you're posting new content regularly, all that looks great to Google. Tom Trevatt: Yeah Andrew Hellmich: And this was obviously a strategy in your head when you were planning this strategy. Did you originally think this is going to be better, if I interview headshot photographers, talk about headshot photography like, was that? Because, to me, that will be the easy.. Tom Trevatt: Yeah Andrew Hellmich: ..that's the low hanging fruit. That's going to definitely work in my head. Yeah, were you thinking the same? Tom Trevatt: I mean, it certainly would have worked, but it's worked without having to do that. Andrew Hellmich: But was that a gamble? Tom Trevatt: It was a gamble in the sense that, on the one hand, I want to speak to a much wider group of people for my own benefit, because I think that if I can learn from a fashion photographer or a photography journalist or a photo editor, and I can learn something from them, then people coming to the website to listen to the podcast can learn something as well, whatever type of photographer they are. So rather than just speaking only to headshot photographers, because we're all photographers that draw inspiration from all types of photography, or all types of art, all types of cultural production, right? So if I can speak to people in those kinds of wider spheres, then I can provide something that both I get a lot of education, enjoyment, fun, you know, passionate engagement with, and so can the people who are coming to the website. So if it was just about headshot photography, I think I'd probably get bored after a season. Yeah, but if it's about all the other things, then it's got longevity and it's got kind of me being excited about it, so. Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I love what you've done and I love why you're doing it, but what is surprising to me is these interviews aren't recorded for your ideal clients so much. They're really created for photographers or other artists. I mean, I don't see your lawyers coming to your website, looking for headshot, and then listening to the podcast. Tom Trevatt: No, I do have some guests lined up who might be helpful for actors or other creative business owners, people who, you know, maybe, who run their own business. You know, business strategists like, I want my, I would like, I'm going to invite my business coach on there as well. And, you know, I think that the people that who would come to listen to the podcast, yeah, they're not necessarily my ideal client, but it's not just about my ideal client. It's about a wider community of people that want to get something out of it that I, you know, I find fun and exciting and interesting, and it'll pick up my ideal client along the way, you know. The other thing is obviously also that, because I'm so deeply ingrained in education, you know, many years of working in academia, that I want to bring education and, you know, I do workshops, I do mentorship. So in one part of that, I am speaking to my ideal client. Because my ideal client as a photographer in the educational space. So there is always that kind of part of it as well. The other thing Andrew is, it's not just a strategy. It's like something I've wanted to do for a long time, you know. So it's just conversations. Andrew Hellmich: True. True. Does it feel to you like this was like a massive fluke like that? This is helping you laughing, as I laugh, and I'm not saying it with any disrespect at all. I think it's amazing. I love that. It's working. But to me, like strategically thinking if I was giving advice as someone that was a headshot photographer with a headshot photography website looking to rank for the London headshot photographer, I would suggest creating content about headshots, content for your ideal clients, whereas you're really just doing what you want to do and adding the content to your headshot photography website. Does it feel like a fluke, like you're smiling, I don't know, because you're saying it wasn't all strategy. Tom Trevatt: Yeah Andrew Hellmich: Are you surprised that it's working the way it has?   Sign up to listen to the Premium Version  - https://photobizx.com/premium-membership   Andrew Hellmich: Fair enough. Fair enough. Tom, I could keep talking to you for hours. I know it's like it's after, I think it's 1 AM where you are at the moment, which is crazy. Tom Trevatt: Yeah, it's quarter past one. Andrew Hellmich: Quarter past one. It absolutely blows my mind. For the listener, it is early, well, it's not early morning here. It's quite reasonable. Tom chose this time. And I gave him options, but he said, "No, I'm busy. This is good." I've got, I've got one last question to ask you about the big law firm and pricing for that. Before that, I mentioned your Instagram earlier, but I didn't give out the handle. Where is the best place? Is that the best place for the listener to go to see more of your amazing work? Tom Trevatt: Yeah, I'd say it's either Instagram or the website, and the Instagram is tomtrevatt.photography. And Trevatt is spelled T-R-E-V-A double T. Some people put an A where it shouldn't be, and the website is just tomtrevatt.com. Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. I'll add links to both those in the show notes. Now I know that you talked about being an academic, and you're doing some teaching, you're looking at other things. Do you do anything with other photographers as well, particularly in the headshot space or the business space? Tom Trevatt: Yeah, I do mentorships. So I've got, currently, four mentees that I'm working with over a period of time. So I offer sort of batches of kind of one to one sessions, either in person or over Zoom that could be working on a specific project, or it could be building a business. It could be starting from scratch, or it could be answering a very set number of questions. I hope people come to me because they've seen something in my work that they want to kind of understand, or, you know, help them build that part of their business. But, you know, obviously people, I had one guy who I worked with recently who asked me a lot about the color science of Canon cameras, and I have no idea about the color science of Canon cameras, so I was unable to answer his questions. But yeah, I love it. It's fantastic. I also do one to one and group workshops in my studio in central London, obviously, because of the few changes of studios recently, I've not done any of those for the last six months, but I will be kicking that off again very soon, and I'm really excited about that, because that is one of the places where my heart is, is helping people. First of all, helping people build businesses. I love that because, for one, it gets people out of the rat race, gets people out the nine to five. And it also means that, you know, people can kind of explore what they love and what they want to, how they want to, you know, succeed and so forth. So helping people do that is really good. And of course, lighting, posing, you know, speaking to models, those kind of things. I really, really love working with people on. Andrew Hellmich: Do you have a Central London studio at the moment? Tom Trevatt: Yeah Andrew Hellmich: Can I walk past and see your studio, or is it in the bowels of some big building? Tom Trevatt: So it is currently in a beautiful muse, a cobbled street that used to be all workshops, like workshops in like the 1910s ,1920s.. Andrew Hellmich: Blacksmiths and.. Tom Trevatt: Exactly, like there was one over the road that used to make fans for cars, or something like this. And so the floor is all concrete floor or stone floor that has all got the marks of all the things that have happened over the last 100 years. And then these, like, you know, beautiful red doors that have got glass windows, and the light is absolutely stunning that comes in through there. So you can walk past the studio, but you wouldn't necessarily know the street was there unless you had heard of it, because it's kind of hidden away behind all of the sort of residential areas around Elephant and Castle roundabout, which is sort of Central, South Central London. So, yeah, it's a very easy kind of transport. Andrew Hellmich: It sounds amazing. It sounds so good. Tom Trevatt: Fantastic Andrew Hellmich: So I wanted to ask one last question, and then I'm gonna ask you two but the question I did mention was, when you originally pricing, or what you thought you were going to be pricing that law firm for, was that going to be based on per headshot that you photographed, or did you have a different system for quoting such a large job? Tom Trevatt: So yeah, it would be a kind of per person number, obviously, if it's a small company, I'd have a higher number per person. If it's a larger company, you just bring it down, because the economy's at scale. But what's actually happened with this law firm is because, because they're lawyers, and they're so busy, we're in there regularly. So you know, we might be in there for a block of five days or three days, and then we have like, 20 people to shoot per day. They come in, they get their hair and makeup, they come and do a shoot. But out of those 20 people, four or five of them cancel last minute. So what that means is that I'm having to pick up at a later date those people again, and lo and behold, I will charge for those days as well. Andrew Hellmich: So you would still have the base fee, plus the per person. And the base fee, would that change as well, or that just stays fixed? Tom Trevatt: So there isn't a base fee, it would just be a per person fee, and then I'd add things like a hair and makeup artist, an assistant. Do I need to get equipment for this job?, you know. For the law firm, because it's such a large job, I bought five grand worth of lighting set up for the, and which is left there is essentially, you know, in their storeroom at the moment. So you know, I will go in half an hour, 45 minutes before the first shoot on the first day of our block of five, for example, set it all up in the room and then leave it up for those five days. Andrew Hellmich: What a beautiful job. That sounds fantastic. Tom Trevatt: Yeah, it's fantastic. I think they serve us very good lunches as well, so. Andrew Hellmich: Amazing. And obviously, in that case, you're not having three to four hour conversation, this has got to be more cookie cutter. Tom Trevatt: This is much more cookie cutter. This is very much I've got a two setups. One that's a, you know, a sort of standing setup, because they want to kind of clean headshots. And then one that's either a kind of leaning on a table, maybe sitting on a stool, sitting on a chair that sort of swaps out and changes, because they want the kind of variety across the whole thing. They've got quite sort of specific specifications that their design team has given me. So yeah, they're working with one of the world's largest design companies as well, which is quite nice to be working so yeah. Andrew Hellmich: What an amazing job. Can I ask you one last, this is going to be a really dumb question, because it's after 1 AM and you've got to go.. Tom Trevatt: It's all good. Andrew Hellmich: ..but because we might have to leave the listener without the answer to this one, if it's too involved, how are you getting most of your clients? Tom Trevatt: I would say it's a good percentage of it is through Google. Andrew Hellmich: That's really good to hear because we've talked a lot about that. Tom Trevatt: Yeah, exactly. I still probably get interest from Instagram. I would say that the customer journey could be something along these lines. They will go to Google. They will search for headshot photography London. They will see my profile. They'll go onto my website, then they'll maybe go on to my Instagram. They might go on and see, might see a podcast, they might see something else. But they'll usually have that kind of interaction between the website and the Instagram, because that's the two main places where I do most of my work, or the most the work comes out, and then they'll email me. It may be that they'll go to the Instagram first and then come to the website and email me through the website, I do have a little form in the thing saying, "Where did you find me?" Not everyone fills it in, but, you know, I ask them and I ask them, and it's not an even split between Google and Instagram. It's probably somewhere in the region of 70% Google and then, you know, 20% Instagram, 10% other. Andrew Hellmich: Got it. That's fantastic. What a great answer. Perfect. Tom, that is a wonderful place to leave this. I'm so glad, so happy that we had the chance to have this conversation. I was delightfully surprised when I did a quick search of our email history. I didn't know that it went back to 2020, or 2021 and then sort of, the picture all sort of came into focus, and we talked about cycling and trips to France and all kinds of stuff. So it's been wonderful to connect. I've had a fantastic time talking to you. Tom Trevatt: It's great. Andrew Hellmich: Your work is incredible. It's no wonder you are the success you are. And massive, massive thanks for coming on and sharing everything that you have. Tom Trevatt: Thank you. Andrew. It's been fantastic. And yeah, the cycling part of, it's great, isn't it? Not quite as such as an enthusiast as you are, but I'm very jealous of all your trips to France and Spain, listening in. Andrew Hellmich: Well, hopefully we can catch up on the top of maybe Tourmalet or something one day in July in France. Tom Trevatt: Let me get a little better at cycling before I do commit. Andrew Hellmich: Tom, thank you so much, mate, really. It's lovely to have a new friend in London, on the other side of the world. Tom Trevatt: Absolutely. I'm actually just off to Rome in a couple of weeks to see one of your friends, Matt., Matt Badenoch. Andrew Hellmich: Matt Badenoch Tom Trevatt: Yeah Andrew Hellmich: Are you doing one of the street photography workshops? Tom Trevatt: Yeah, I'm doing the Roman street photography ones, yeah. Andrew Hellmich: Unbelievable. Okay. So what camera you gonna take? Tom Trevatt: I'm taking two. So it's gonna be the XT5, and I'll take my X100VI as well. Andrew Hellmich: Unreal Tom Trevatt: Just one day of each or something like that, you know. Andrew Hellmich: And are you going to shoot true, in air quotes, "street photography?" Are you going to shoot street portraits? What do you think? Tom Trevatt: You know, I don't really like taking photographs of people on the street. Andrew Hellmich: What are you going to do? Tom Trevatt: Come to the studio. Come to the studio. I just, I, my, like, I've done a bunch of street photography. If you scroll back, like, four years on the old Instagrams, there's street photography there, but it's usually sort of shapes and light and like abstract plays of things and stuff, and maybe a person is in there, if they're kind of intrinsic to the scene. But it's not this kind of, you know, in your face street photography kind of style, but we'll see what Matt can bring out. Andrew Hellmich: Oh, my God. You know, you know that Matt's going to push you to your limits here. Tom Trevatt: Exactly, yeah. Andrew Hellmich: So will you get nervous about doing that, or you pass that now? Tom Trevatt: Maybe a little bit nervous. For me, it's not, it's not necessarily the kind of ethics of the street photography side of things. It's much more about that, what I find interesting is, is creating something that looks a bit like an abstract sort of set of shapes, and that might look like street photography or might look like kind of cityscape photography. I don't know what it looks like, but there's a number of reasons why I wanted to do this. One is I wanted a trip to Rome that the business could pay for.. Andrew Hellmich: Nice Tom Trevatt: ..you know. So that's, that's another badge…ahhh… thing to do. And of course, like spending time with Matt is really good. I went around Notting Hill Carnival with him last year, and that was great. And so I was just like, when it popped up, it was like, that's a no brainer. It's a really easy decision to make. It's not expensive, and it means I just get a lovely trip and meeting lots of new people as well and taking photographs. And, you know, I don't have to go and take photographs of, you know, nonas in rolling dough. Or maybe I will, I don't know, but it'll be a fun time, or whatever happens. Andrew Hellmich: Take your microphone and your street recorder as well and record some interviews as well. That'd be great. Tom Trevatt: Absolutely right, yeah, it's a good idea. It's a good idea. Andrew Hellmich: Tom, mate, again, have fun on that trip. Say hello to Matt, and thanks again so much for your time tonight. Tom Trevatt: Andrew, thank you so much. It's been great chatting. 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Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area Dave Koch of Real Estate Media Utah had me excited to record something different for today's interview! Dave has been running a successful luxury real estate photography business in Utah, USA, for the past decade. His Instagram bio says: Utah's Premiere Real Estate & Architectural Photographer, Custom Commercial, Aerial and Home Media Creators. And looking through his feed, you'll see stunning images and comparison examples of what a less talented photographer would produce, compared to his work. His website is easy to navigate and full of beautiful imagery of stunning homes. He says on his site: From social media-optimised vertical videos for ‘Reels' to floor plans, 3D tours, and video tours, we’ve got you covered. And… We shoot everything- from ten-million-dollar homes in Park City to duplexes in Magna. As someone who hears that real estate photography is a terrible genre in which photographers are overworked and underpaid, I'm looking forward to learning more and seeing if I'm totally wrong. In this interview, Dave shares a smarter way to do real estate photography and how to shoot less to earn more. Here's some more of what we covered in the interview: Why real estate photography is actually problem-solving How fewer jobs can mean better money when you're targeting luxury listings Why your website sets expectations long before a client phone call Charging by the square metre (and not undervaluing twilight shoots) Why listening to the homeowner first, helps you shoot with purpose Diversifying into commercial work to stabilise your income Learning through mistakes—and how that sharpens your creative instincts The importance of getting it right in camera instead of relying on Photoshop Why ambient + flash blending still trumps HDR Rethinking ultra-wide lenses and choosing angles that feel natural How treating your photography like a business changes everything Specialising early to fast-track your success The importance of community, networking, and showing only your best work Copyright RE Photography UTAH 801 819-8141 What’s on Offer for Premium Members If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet. Plus, special member-only interviews. Any photography is what you make of it. And I think if you are geared toward doing the best possible product, whatever your genre, you're going to challenge yourself every day with new and better shoots. – Dave Koch You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online. Seriously, that's not all. People are not critical of their own work… you're thinking, I can fix it in Photoshop, and that's not the answer. The answer is to continue to shoot until you've got the picture designed the way it should be and the way it needs to be. – Dave Koch In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business. @Copyright Dave Koch 801 819-8141 What is your big takeaway? Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Dave shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode. Build a network of people that do what you do in other cities. They're called mastermind groups… we help each other out. Because, again, it's a zero sum game. If I help you, we're all better for it. – Dave Koch If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Dave, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below. How to Sell Like a Mofo – New Live Training for Photographers If you’ve ever said “I hate selling”… this one’s for you. No sleazy tactics. No pushy scripts.Just a real-world sales process that works — taught by a working photographer who's doing this every day. (Yep, the same legend behind “Advertise Like a Mofo” – Richard Grenfell is back.) This live 2-part training is made for photographers who want to: Feel confident on sales calls (even if you hate the phone) Sell more, without sounding salesy Set up your shoot to sell more images before you even pick up the camera Handle objections, talk pricing, and walk clients through the sale with ease Session 1: Thursday May 15 @ 8am AEST Session 2: Thursday May 22 @ 8am AEST Replays available if you can’t make it live Just USD$397 (price doubles after the live calls) Register early and get “Advertise Like a Mofo” FREE (normally USD$197) or another awesome Masterclass. Head here for all the details and to grab your spot: https://learn.photobizx.com/sell-like-a-mofo/ If you’re a working photographer and want to sell more without selling your soul — this training is for you. Copyright RE Photography UTAH 801 819-8141 iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons. Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome! Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show. Don't show your shit. You know, only show your very, very best… you're judged by your worst picture, not your best picture. – Dave Koch If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name. Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them. I shot an $8 million home yesterday, and it took me six hours to do 8000 square feet… I made $1,200 on which, you know, yes, I'm going to be editing for a while too… But you know, if I'm doing five of those jobs a week, I'm making pretty good money. – Dave Koch Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​ Here is the latest review… ★★★★★ Andrew isn’t just hosting, he’s digging Via Google Reviews by Costa Brava Wedding Photographer, Jordi Marimont in Spain on May 8th, 2025. I’ve been listening to PhotoBizX for a couple of years now. I’m not a premium member (yet), but even the free episodes are packed with value. There’s always something I can apply to my business. What I love most about the podcast is that it doesn’t focus on the guest’s life story. It’s all about the value they can offer through their experience. Andrew isn’t just hosting, he’s digging. Even when a guest drifts off-topic, he knows how to gently guide things back and pull out the insight we’re actually there for. That’s a real skill. And even when the episode is about a different kind of photography business, I still find nuggets that apply to my wedding work. It’s now always part of my dog rides when there is a new episode. Thanks for showing up, Andrew. @Copyright Dave Koch 801 819-8141 Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode: Real Estate Photography Utah Commercial Photography Utah Real Estate Photography with Dave on YouTube Real Estate Photography Utah on Instagram People are literally hiring me because, hey, I saw your pictures. I like that look. I want you to do that for me. So I'm not being hired to shoot a house anymore. I'm being hired to do what I do to a house. And for me, that's the big thing. – Dave Koch Copyright Dave Koch 801 819-8141 Thank you! Thanks for tuning in. A big thanks to Dave for generously sharing his thoughts and ideas on real estate photography for profit. His perspective is a breath of fresh air in a genre that’s often misunderstood. He’s not just shooting homes; he’s building a business with strategy, purpose, and real clarity. From pricing effectively to nailing the shot in-camera and showing up with intention. Hope you get as much from it as I did. When you start to feel that that hurt inside, or that attack inside, that's when you need to listen the hardest, because that's when you're going to learn the most. – Dave Koch That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business! Thanks, and speak soon Andrew @Copyright RE Photography UTAH 801 819-8141 Episode Transcript Email Download New Tab 616: Dave Koch – Shoot Less, Earn More: A Smarter Way to Do Real Estate Photography   Andrew Hellmich: I'm excited to record something different for today's interview. Our photographer guest has been running a successful luxury real estate photography business in Utah in the USA, for the past decade. And if you have a look at his Instagram bio, it says "Utah's Premier Real Estate and Architectural Photographer, Custom Commercial, Aerial, and Home Media Creators", and if you look through his feed, you'll see stunning images, examples of what a less talented photographer would produce compared to his work. So you see those examples. And his website, it's super easy to navigate. It's full of beautiful imagery of stunning homes, and he says there "From social media optimized vertical videos for reels to floor plans, 3D tours and video tours, we have you covered, and we shoot everything from ten million dollar homes in Park City to duplexes in Magna". Now, as someone who hears that real estate photography is a terrible genre where photographers are overworked and underpaid. I'm looking forward to learning more and to see if I am totally wrong about that. Our special guest is Dave Koch of R\E Media in Utah, and I'm rapt to have him with us now. Dave, welcome. Dave Koch: Thank you so much, Andrew. I'm really, really happy to be here, and actually kind of excited. I'm hoping to convert you. Andrew Hellmich: Well, let's start there. Like, am I totally wrong? Because does real estate photography have the same vibe in the States? Dave Koch: You know what I think, first off, any photography is what you make of it. And I think if you are geared toward doing the best possible product, whatever your genre, you're going to challenge yourself every day with new and better shoots. And to me, my joy in photography is every day getting better and growing and learning. And to me, you know, I would stifle in an office. That's the same thing every day. And to me, it's just a wonderful thing to have new and different challenges every day and have to solve those challenges. To me, photography, everybody thinks, "Oh, it's super easy. You sit there, you push the button and you're done". And to me, that's not photography at all. To me, photography is problem solving, and then I make a picture. Andrew Hellmich: I totally understand where you're coming from, and I agree with what you're saying, but I get the impression, when I've spoken to other real estate photographers here in Australia, that that genre almost feels like a cookie cutter style of photography, where you just get in, get the shots, get out of there and onto the next one. You're working fast. You're doing as much as you can in a day, and then you race home and do all this editing, because everyone wants everything the same day. Like, is that how it is? Dave Koch: That can be how it is. I'm going to say a couple of biased or prejudiced things, and I'm going to make generalizations. So this is not everybody in the business, but I do think there are generally two business models. And one is, as you've described, they'll do five shoots per day. They do them for $75 a day, or something like that. And they do it on volume. And it's repetition, repetition, repetition. You stand in the corner, you shoot into the room from the four corners, go to the next room you're in and out of a house in 35 minutes. And it's a valid, you know business. You know these tend to be the people who hire five or six people to work for them. They're the that sort of thing. And then I kind of consider myself at the polar opposite of that. I shot an $8 million home yesterday, and it took me six hours to do 8000 square feet, which, you know, the other model they would gag on, you know, six hours in there, but, you know, I went through and I was watching the light we shot the back half of the house in the morning, when the light was coming in there. We're not avoiding the light. We're getting the light, and then we get the front half of the house in the afternoon, when that light's coming. And for me, like that job yesterday, I made $1,200 on, which, you know, yes, I'm going to be editing for a while too. You have to consider that into it also. But you know, if I'm doing five of those jobs a week, I'm making pretty good money. Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. Dave Koch: And part of what people are doing now is sending a lot of jobs, especially editing jobs to Vietnam and having them done there. And it can be done very inexpensively, or it can be done very expensively, depending on, again, where you are in the market, but I do not spend all my time editing the house yesterday as an example, I did send part of it to Vietnam, the second bedrooms, the second bathrooms, all that stuff. But things like the living room and the bedroom are things I take pride in, and those are the major features of the house. I'll send you a couple of images from it. And I think you know the people that you describe the five shoots a day people, there's a giant difference between that and what you see in Architectural Digest. Andrew Hellmich: Right Dave Koch: And while I never imply that I was at that level, hopefully I'm approaching that. And you know, that's my goal, that's where I'm setting my sights, and that's why I'm spending six or eight hours a day in one home. Andrew Hellmich: When you go into a home like that one yesterday, and you get to be creative, you get to explore the light, look at how you can bash off the rooms and the features of the home. Do you get time to do that? Is that built into your pricing? Dave Koch: Yes, oh yeah, right. Andrew Hellmich: So tell me, how does the pricing work for, let's say for the house yesterday, is it the agent that's paying you or the home owner? Dave Koch: Okay, there's a couple of questions there. I'll get the quick one. First, who's paying me? Generally, it's the agent. And a lot of times at the level where I'm shooting, the agents who are hiring me are, we kind of say amongst ourselves, they're not hiring me to sell that house, they're hiring me to sell them as a realtor to get their next house. And so they want things to look really, really good and well, exceptional, hopefully, so that people will know to go to them, to sell those other high end homes and that sort of thing. As far as taking the time backing up to websites, you know, your website is your calling card on the internet. And just as in your introduction, you presented me from what you saw on my website, that's how the people who hire me expect me to be. So it says on that website that I'm going to spend 3-4-5, hours doing a home so I think people expect that. And then the final product, you know, there's a big difference between me and what I would call an HDR photographer, and you can see the difference. And so I'm so incredibly lucky because now people are literally hiring me because, "Hey, I saw your pictures. I like that look. I want you to do that for me". So I'm not being hired to shoot a house anymore. I'm being hired to do what I do to a house. And for me, that's the big thing. Andrew Hellmich: It sounds like you are approved photography. It's not like cookie cutter photography, like I described earlier, but in your situation, say yesterday's house, again as an example, are you paid the same if you knock it over in four hours or two hours? Dave Koch: I have different pricing levels to accommodate for that. And to be honest, and I really hope I don't sound vain or anything, but my pricing levels start fairly high, and that in itself is sort of selective in who my clients are going to be, someone who you know is doing a two story walk up, you know, town home is not going to be wanting to spend 5-6-800 dollars to shoot it. So it kind of is self-selective that way to get me more towards the higher end. That being said, I still have a lot of clients from when I was working and learning and growing, and I still shoot for them, and I do all their stuff at my old prices compared to the new prices would be. Andrew Hellmich: So with your new pricing, and let's just stay with yesterday's house, because that's a good example. Dave Koch: Okay, oh, it's a beautiful house. Andrew Hellmich: Right. So does the agent choose which package? Because I can see, like with your packages, only go up into the, I think it's $600 595 or something. But then there's lots of add-ons. So does the agent sit down with you and nut out what they want, or you try and sell them on these customizations? Dave Koch: To a certain extent. Are you familiar with Matterport? Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So that's where you have the video. Sort of walk through a studio space or a home. Dave Koch: Right? Yeah. So that's something an agent would choose, you know, "Hey, I want not only pictures, but I want people to be able to do that tour or something like that". Another thing might be twilights, and that is something I would push on them, especially like yesterday's home, you know, it had a view out to the Great Salt Lake, and it looked beautiful at sunset. It had a pool, it had a tennis court, it had a squash court. You know, you don't not shoot that at sunset because it's just gorgeous. So, you know, and some of those things are just easy to add on. But generally, when we get to the house, they'll say, "There it is. Go do your thing". And you know, I like to be left alone in the home and just go through it and do it at my own pace. And generally, there's nobody else there in the home. Occasionally, I'll have an assistant if I'm doing more commercial work, like interior designers or something like that, I'll have an assistant. But for regular real estate, it's just me versus the house. And like I said, you know, I got light streaming in. How am I going to deal with that? And I've got to figure out how to do that. And it's the challenges like that that make my job so much fun, I think. Andrew Hellmich: It sounds like you love it, which is awesome. Dave Koch: Oh, I do. Andrew Hellmich: So tell me, with yesterday's house, how do you get from, say, 595, from your premium plus pictures or your luxury photography package? How do you get from there to, did you say it was 12-13, $1,400 in the end? Dave Koch: Yeah, part of it is square footage. I charged by square footage, and then we added on the sunset shot. And that, I'll be honest, I do not, especially as we get into summer, I actually hate twilights, because you can't even start shooting them till eight or 9 PM and you know that just screws up your whole day. So I've raised the price of that a lot. It's, I think, $300 now to do that for three pictures. But they're also, those are the eye grabbers. Those are the things that are going to get people in. Andrew Hellmich: Okay, yeah, for sure. They really stand out. So I just want to understand, Dave, so the agent hires you, you turn up to the house yesterday, is that when you have your check boxes of what he wants or what she wants from the photo session, or have you discussed this on the phone beforehand? So you turn up, you know what you're doing for the day. Dave Koch: You know the instructions I get are just typically "Shoot the house", "Oh, I want a Matterport," "Oh, I want a video". "Oh, I want twilight", the way I look at a house is I will, typically, the first thing I'll do is either the agent or the homeowner will walk me through the whole house, and I'll talk to them about things that they like. One of the questions I always ask a homeowner is, "Where do you drink your coffee in the morning?". You know? Because that's going to be a special spot, and they're going to know that house way better than I do. So I have them show me what they think is really cool about the house, and I listen. That's part of what you got to do, is you got to listen and you find the character of the home. And that's, to me, the key. I don't shoot any house the same. I try and it sounds silly and it sounds goofy, maybe, or something like that. But every house, you know, the house yesterday, had a really nice, gentle light to it and really light walls. And so I shot it in a way that I thought accentuated that. Two days ago, I shot another beautiful home that had a lot of darker wood, and the homeowners kept saying, "Well, this isn't gonna appeal to a lot of people, because we have such weird taste". And I said, "Yeah, but that's what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to show that weirdness, because your client, the person who will buy the house will find that appealing, and that's why you have to show the character of the home, because that's what's going to get the buyer who's going to love that home". Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay. Dave Koch: Does that make sense? Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely, it does. It does. In the intro, and I saw on your website, you know, you talked about, you know, 10 million dollar homes in Park City to duplexes in Magna. So I don't know Magna, but I'm guessing it's, is it lower socio economic, or is it still pretty fancy? Dave Koch: It's lower. Yeah, I don't want to run, there's actually some beautiful places out in Magna too, but it's more starter homes and things like that. And again, oh, this sounds so incredibly vain, but I think, you know, there's beauty in every home, and if you sit there, you can find that beauty. And you know, if somebody is willing to pay me to go in there, I will work harder in Magna than I did yesterday, because, you know, the home yesterday was designed to show the light, whereas the homes in Magna have eight foot ceilings, and, you know, bouncing light around is hard to do, and typically they have curtains and all that. Magna is hard. Andrew Hellmich: So do you still feel inspired when you go to Magna? Because I'm curious, like, why do you even have that on your website? Why not just stick to the premiere real estate? Dave Koch: Because I don't, you know, a realtor the other day, well, I'm sorry, two years ago, she had me in a 6570, a nice house, really nice house. And we were talking, and she said, "Well, I've got another listing coming up, but it's only 2000 square feet, so it's nothing you'd be interested in". And I said, "No, I'm happy to do that. That's what I do. I shoot homes". And they said, "Oh, I thought you only shot really expensive ones". And I thought, "Oh, I've gone too far that way". And so I just think, you know, if somebody really thinks that a home has potential, don't discount me to go in there and shoot it, because I will make it as good as I possibly can, whether it's in Magna or on the West Bench. Andrew Hellmich: Nice, nice. So with your pricing model, can you bring in a revenue, say, $200,000 Is that doable? Dave Koch: You know, I was talking about this exact subject with a couple of other photographers in Portland, and they hit 200 and I don't quite do that. I'm definitely over 100 though, but I'm exactly where I want. I've got the work level where, you know, I did a shoot this morning, 80 miles away. Tell me, this is not the most beautiful day in the world. I go out I shoot this giant plantation. It was 20 some odd acres, small, itty bitty house. The guy, I think, has dementia, you know, so it's going downhill and all that. But on the way back, I saw a moose, and on the way back, I saw five eagles flying, and one of them had some kill, and they were fighting over it, and it was like an aerial ballet. And, you know, I have the opportunity to experience life and not just be a slave to my work. And I'm doing work I love, but I'm not going crazy. Andrew Hellmich: Just tell me a little bit about that, Dave, so when you say you're not going crazy, does that make, I get the impression, after doing a lot of these interviews and hearing from a lot of people based in the US, I feel as though you work way harder than most other nationalities. I feel like the Americans are working super hard. So do you give yourself some downtime? Dave Koch: You know? I, Okay. There's six or eight other real estate photographers that are coming into town in two weeks, and I'm going to take them all down to Moab, M, O, A, B, look it up. It's like the center, you ever seen a road runner, coyote cartoon? Andrew Hellmich: Yes Dave Koch: Yeah, that's what it looks like there. Andrew Hellmich: Is that Zion National Park? Dave Koch: It's just east of that. It'll be arches and canyon lands, which are that same sort of thing. I'll send you some pictures of that too. Andrew Hellmich: Well, I've been to Zion, so I know Zion. Dave Koch: Oh, you have. Andrew Hellmich: I've been to Utah. I've got a friend who lives in Morgan, yeah. Dave Koch: That's awesome. Well, if and when you come back, call me up, I will tour you around. We will have so much fun. Andrew Hellmich: Sounds amazing. So, yeah, so do you give yourself like you're not working? I mean, are you doing 40 hours a week? Are you doing 60 hours a week? Dave Koch: You know, I'm probably doing 10 to 12 hours a day. Andrew Hellmich: So you're working, that's pretty hard. Dave Koch: But, you know, no, it's, it's two or three hours of shooting or four hours of shooting, and then I come back here, and I sit here and I edit, and then I go upstairs and I make dinner for my wife, you know, and I'm not tied to my desk. And if it's too much, I'll send more to Vietnam, if I need a day or two off. You know, it's typically June, July, August is our busy season, and right now, my April looks like my typical August. It's really building up right now, and I had to do the saddest thing today, because of that Moab trip, I had somebody call me, and they wanted me to shoot a Gulf Stream 650 which is like the biggest Gulf Stream there is, and do it in Oakland. But it had to be that weekend that we were doing Moab. Andrew Hellmich: Oh, no. Dave Koch: Yeah. And I had to turn them down. And I felt so bad, because I'm usually really good at moving things around. But yeah, I was in Long Island two weeks ago, and I shot two planes there. I shot two planes on Sunday, next week, I'm going to Dallas, May 5th and 6th. I just booked something in Vegas. So in addition to doing all the houses, I'm flying around and doing stuff too, which is just a blast. Andrew Hellmich: So good. I mean, it sounds like you've created a wonderful lifestyle for yourself. What would you do differently if you were starting over, like I'm looking for did you make any mistakes? Could you get to where you are now more quickly, if you did something different? Dave Koch: I think mistakes are the best way to learn. That, being said, you don't want to make that many. I started out as a television news photographer. So I spent 15 years as a photographer covering news stories, shooting presidents and, you know, things like that. So I had a real strong background in photography. And I knew a lot about lighting and things like that, but I didn't know much about this genre, so I made a lot of mistakes, and mainly in houses in Magna, you know, but that's why you shoot those and that, have you ever heard of the 10,000 hour rule? Yes, I am a firm believer in the 10,000 hour rule. I think you need to put in that time, and not just because you're learning, but because it, I don't think about exposure anymore. I don't think about exposure triangle anymore. I don't think about F stops anymore. I think about the image, and that's all I worry about, is what I'm seeing on the back of the camera, and then I just dial my little dials till I get the picture that I want. If I had to say anything that I see photographers doing that I think is their biggest mistake, it's forgetting that you have that little thing there. You know that you can look at the thing you just shot, and what you need to do is look at it and be critical. People are not critical of their own work. They need to look at it and say, "Oh, the sky is blown out, so I need to adjust for that". You know, you're thinking, I can fix it in Photoshop, and that's not the answer. The answer is to continue to shoot until you've got the picture designed the way it should be in the way it needs to be. Andrew Hellmich: You can't bring a blown out sky back unless you add light yeah to the room. Dave Koch: Right, yeah. And then you go on Facebook, and you go to the all these Lightroom forums or whatever, and they're like, can you fix this sky? Or, you know, can you take this person out of this image? And it's like, you just go, "You know, what?, you should have done that there". And I think that's people's biggest problem is they think, "Oh, Photoshop is magic", and it can be to a certain extent, but the more and more you can shoot for the edit, just even knowing that that's going to be a, if you know you've got a problem, fix it, combine it in Photoshop, and then you've got the problem solved. But just shoot something and say, "Oh, Photoshop will fix it. No." Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, absolutely. I want to ask you more about technique and equipment and things like that in just a minute, but staying with the business side. If you're giving advice to me, and I want to get into real estate photography, but I want to do what you're doing. I want to photograph the luxury homes and charge 12, $1,500 for those sessions. I don't want to be shooting in Magna, poor Magna. Dave Koch: I know I feel so bad. It's really not a bad place. Andrew Hellmich: I'm sure it's not. So would you tell me? What would you say to me? Would you say, "No, you have to go and cut your teeth down there in Magna first with those homes". Dave Koch: Yeah, yeah. Andrew Hellmich: You would. Dave Koch: Yeah. Okay, going to Vegas, going to Dallas next week, I'm charging in the three to $5,000 range for these shoots, Because I'm shooting big aircraft, and they're flying me in and things like that. I cannot afford to make a mistake. I cannot. And this goes way back to TV news. That's a lesson I learned there is you can't come back and not have the images, you have to. You know, you can experiment and play and all you want after, but get the images first. And I think part of that is, again, it's that 10,000 hour rule. It's getting to the point where you know you have the images and recognizing when you don't, and fixing it so that you do, and that's all part of that. You know, I think there's a reason that apprenticeships have been in human existence since the beginning of time, because you're not an expert to begin with. Do you know the Dunning Kruger? Andrew Hellmich: Yes, yeah. I heard about that recently, the Dunning Kruger effect. Dave Koch: Yeah, Dunning, Some of the older photographers that I know, you know, will see this new guy, and you know, God bless them. They're trying really hard, and they look how good I've done with this, you know. And we'll just look at each other and we'll go the Dunning Kruger is strong with this one. Andrew Hellmich: So for the listener who doesn't, hasn't heard this term or this expression, this is someone who sees their abilities as much higher than what they really are. Would that be a good way to explain it? Dave Koch: Yeah. And you know what? It's a good thing in a lot of ways, too, because it keeps you excited. And I think if you really work hard. And really, if you watch a lot of videos on YouTube, and if you go to like PMRE and join the Photographer PPA, you know, there's a lot of really good people there. And even, you know, a lot of people help me to get to where I am. And now I'm all about giving back. I'm all about helping new people, because it's not a zero sum game. I can win and you can win too. You know, you don't have to lose for me to win. And so I think there's so many resources and, you know, the internet and all that, it's easy to get to about 80% of being a really great photographer, and I think you can do that in a year. I really do from no experience at all, really working hard, but that next 20% is going to take you 20 years. Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, okay. What's an example, Dave, what's an example of someone having helped you to get where you are today? Dave Koch: Can I go all the way back to television? Andrew Hellmich: Sure. Dave Koch: Okay, this is the thing that stands out in my mind. In television, we had sweeps week, and we try and do stories that were like sensational, you know, to try and get ratings for those sweeps weeks. And so we would always try and come up with something we wanted to do. And my friend Graham Ledger and I, he was a reporter, I was the cameraman, we decided to do a week-long series on prostitution, and so we ended up going to the Mustang Ranch in Nevada, and we got to go in and meet all the girls. And you know, we did a lot of different things. Anyway, I worked hard on this. I came back and the chief photographer came in, and we showed him the final cuts, and he just said, "That's shit. That's horrible". And it killed me, and it sounds horrible, but I learned something really good there, and that's the more it hurts. If somebody tells you you're shooting great, it doesn't help you at all. And while he may not have been the most eloquent person with his criticism, you know, when you start to feel that hurt inside, or that attack inside, that's when you need to listen the hardest, because that's when you're gonna learn the most. And I don't recommend telling somebody else their work is shit, but if somebody's critiquing your work and you're starting to feel like a little edgy, perk up. That's when you need to listen. Andrew Hellmich: That's interesting. That's interesting. Tell me about actually getting the jobs. Is it through relationships with real estate agents? Is it having your website rank well, SEO wise, and having great work on there, like, how do you get bookings? Maybe tell us when you started. How did you get bookings when you started, compared to now, Dave Koch: I knew a couple realtors, and that's what got me started and that's what helped me build my portfolio, is I would just do all their stuff. But there's a variety of different ways, you hit on website, and I think that's very important. I think SEO these days is super, super important. That's search engine optimization and designing your site so that it hits for the words that people are searching for in your area. But more and more, social media is very important too. I know people who get all their jobs, every single one of them from Instagram. I don't know how that happens. I don't understand it, but that's what they do. And I think more and more reels are really hitting for people. And I think while I don't think everything is definitely going to go the way of video and reels only, I think reels are the growing area in this business. And while I started off in video and TV. I don't do video at all anymore. I'm just not good at it in the new context of things. Andrew Hellmich: How do you offer reels or Matterport videos to your clients? Dave Koch: I hire a local person who does them. Andrew Hellmich: All right. So you bring someone else out. Dave Koch: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because again, for me, it's got to be top notch, you know? It can't be lazy or anything like that. I actually bring somebody in from out of town. Andrew Hellmich: On purpose? Dave Koch: Yeah, because she's really, really good. Andrew Hellmich: Oh okay, so not because you're worried about having someone else, like move in on your clients.   Sign up to listen to the Premium Version   Andrew Hellmich: Dave, I've got one more question to ask you about pricing, or in relation to setting your prices, before that. I mean, we haven't even talked about the fact that you have a YouTube channel that you teach. So on your YouTube channel, do you teach the techniques of real estate photography and editing? Dave Koch: You know, I do as they come up in my shoots, I will try and, you know, shoot myself doing that, and do that, but I wanted to do something that I hoped would have brought appeal. So I just did a 14 part series on building a photography website, and that's all up on YouTube. And now that that's done, I've started a new series on starting a photography business for someone just barely starting out. And I did a lot of research and spent a lot of time talking to a lot of people, including Small Business Administration, which is a US government agency to help businesses. Here's some stats, just throw something out that will make your jaw drop, in the US, a brand new business has a 40% chance of dying in the first year. Andrew Hellmich: 40% Dave Koch: 40% and 65% in the first five years. Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Pretty sad. Dave Koch: What do you think the chances are of a photography business failing in the first year? Andrew Hellmich: I would stay with the 40% I think, if that's the stat. Dave Koch: 80 Andrew Hellmich: 80? Dave Koch: 80%. Andrew Hellmich: Why? Why? Dave Koch: Do you know? I asked myself the same question, because that's just.. Andrew Hellmich: I bet it's pricing. Dave Koch: You know? I think it's more than that. I think it's, it's so many people have this. Andrew Hellmich: Fine Dave Koch: And, you know, and, "Oh, I take pictures, yeah", and they think it's all about taking pictures. And I think that's the biggest mistake you can make. I think you have to approach what we do as a job, you have to have the discipline to go to work every day, but you also have to build a business plan, and you have to think about, you know, "Oh, hey, Dave makes $1,200 for shooting a house. Well, where does that money go to how much time does Dave spend editing? How much does it cost to send it to Vietnam and have all those done? What does Dave's cell phone cost? What was the cost of gas? What was the, you know, people don't think about all these things that go into it, and they just think, "Oh, I can take a picture. It cost me nothing, so I'll sell it for 50 bucks". And that's it's short sighted. And I think that's why you'll see so many of those businesses fail, I mean, astronomically more than a normal business. Because I think at least with a normal business, people go into it with some preparation to run a business. Andrew Hellmich: True, true. Whereas I think a lot of photographers go from hobby and then go into making it a business, or trying to. Dave Koch: Yeah, and they forget the business part. Andrew Hellmich: Yes. So true, because yeah, everyone loves the photography side with them well. Dave Koch: Yeah Andrew Hellmich: They can make a bit of money. The YouTube channel is that the same channel I'm looking at here, which is Real Estate Photography with Dave Koch?. Dave Koch: Yes, that is it. Andrew Hellmich: Okay. I'll link to that in the show notes, and also link to your website and your Instagram so people can see those. The last thing I was going to ask you, Dave about your pricing, because and it ties into what you said about businesses failing. Did your prices start? I'm guessing they didn't start where they are now. But did you put them up? Do you feel quick enough like could you have put them up more quickly to become more successful sooner? Dave Koch: I did a couple of things. First, I figured out what my costs were, and, you know, I tried to do it that way, but I just was not busy enough to even cover my costs when I first started out. And so I was lucky to have a wife with a full time job who supported me, and now I feel like I owe her my whole life, because I have the best job in the world. I could not be happier. I really, I mean, I like I said, I saw a moose today, you know? I mean, I do kind of go over this in the series that's coming out now too. You have to look at what your competition is, and then figure out where you fit into that competition. And you know, I do not charge what an HDR photographer would charge, either, because I'm putting much more work into it, but I've got the portfolio to back that up, but pretty much, I would raise my prices every year, every January. January used to be just deadsville for me. And so that's when I work on my website, raise my prices, do all that stuff. But you know, some people are lucky enough that they're so busy that they have to raise their prices to bring people down. And then there's another part of it, where, and again, I hope this does not sound vain, because, trust me, I worked at McDonald's. I am lucky to be who I am and where I am, so. But part of it is people expect to pay more, you know, and you have to charge to what the expectation is. Andrew Hellmich: Right. So when did you notice that in your business, because you've been going for over 10 years, like was that in year two? Dave Koch: You know what, in the last year. The last year has just been phenomenal for me. I think I mentioned earlier, I'm getting people that are coming to me because they like the way I shoot, not just because I fill a function and will photograph a house for them. You know, the thing with the Gulf Stream today, you know, they saw my pictures online, and they were like, "You're the guy we want. Can we get you?", and I was like, I had to say, 'No'. God that killed me. Part of it too, I think, is, once you're in the business, you have a pretty good idea of what the prices should be. You know, somebody, I'm all the time being asked for something that's way beyond anything I've done before, or different from what I've done before. I did a thing for a medical company where they wanted, they had a medical unit, and they wanted a 360 degree picture, not like I'm used to doing, where the camera rotates and shows the room, but they wanted to be able to circle the object like on Amazon, like you might see with glasses or something like that. And I had to figure out how to do that. And I think I ended up paying $300 for a program that did it, and I've never used it since. Andrew Hellmich: But you include that then in the price I'm guessing. Dave Koch: Yeah Andrew Hellmich: Right. So again, just to clarify, could you have put your prices up earlier to get ahead more quickly, or you feel like you just followed the natural progression? Dave Koch: I never regret anything I've done, because if it's a mistake, I learned from it, that being said, I would have lost some business, but I would have gained some others, I think. Andrew Hellmich: But as you put your prices up, you mean. Dave Koch: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think it's super important to be able to stand behind your prices. If you say I'm going to charge $15,000 a picture, can you stand behind that? Are you? Is there that value? You know, and I don't know about you, but I have imposter syndrome, super bad. Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. Well, I think we all do. Dave Koch: Yeah, and I have a hard time saying that picture. I sold a picture last year, one picture, $1,200 and it was so hard. And to be honest, it was an accident. And I got it, and I went, "Oh, okay".. Andrew Hellmich: Of what? Of what? What was the photo of? Dave Koch: I'll send it to you. It's beautiful. It is a twilight and I did have to do a lot of work to it. It was a building still under construction, and I had to put in the landscaping and a lot of other stuff. Andrew Hellmich: We'll include that in the show notes. That'd be amazing. Dave Koch: Yeah, or put it right over my face. Right now, nobody wants to work with me, but you know, I just think, if you can pitch a customer and say, "I charge this", and there's confidence in your voice, you're going to get it. And so your pricing has to be something that you feel comfortable and safe with. If you don't feel that you're at that level yet, even if you are, if you can't sell it, you're not going to get it. So I think we all deep inside know what our value is, or close to what our value is, and we know roughly what we should be charging. So you maybe need a friend to come over and slap you and say, "No, you're charging too much or something". But you know where you should come down, I think, on pricing. Andrew Hellmich: I thought it'd be the opposite. I thought you're gonna need the friend to slap you and say you need to be more expensive, not that you're charging too much. Dave Koch: Yes, yeah, I think that's, you know, I still don't know if I'm charging the right amount. Andrew Hellmich: Because you have a network of other real estate buddies, by the sound of it, so you guys must compare pricing. e Dave Koch: Yeah, but Salt Lake is not the same as Portland, is not the same as Twin Falls, which is not the same as Brisbane. Andrew Hellmich: True. Dave Koch: Did I say that right? Andrew Hellmich: You did. Dave Koch: But you know, if I could give one more advice to photographers out there, that is to build a network of people that do what you do in other cities. They're called mastermind groups, yes. And you know, you get six or eight people from all over and you know, we text, I'm in four of them, and we text all of them every day, but we help each other out, because, again, it's a zero sum game. If I help you, we're all better for it. Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. I love that. And I know that there's, I know, personally, there's quite a few PhotobizX members that network with each other across countries, across cities, and it's fantastic. Dave Koch: There's nothing better. Andrew Hellmich: That's so good. Dave. Look, that's a great place to leave this. It's been so good to talk to you, and I can honestly say it's been it's such a pleasure to see someone that loves what they do so much. I mean, you lit up. You got excited telling your stories, and I can hear how passionate you are about the new part of the business, the commercial side, and it sounds like you really are living the dream. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing what you have. Dave Koch: I'm blessed to do what I do. I really am, and I think we all need to remember that, you know, there are people who flip burgers and we take pictures. What could be better? Andrew Hellmich: Pretty good, isn't it? Dave Koch: Yeah Andrew Hellmich: Pretty good. Dave Koch: It's awesome. Scroll back to top Sign up to receive email updates Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast. powered by The post 616: Dave Koch – Shoot Less, Earn More: A Smarter Way to Do Real Estate Photography appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area Blair deLaubenfels of www.worldsbestweddingphotos.com and www.artlifeandbusiness.com  was first interviewed for Episode 378 of the podcast, where she detailed the best ways to curate your portfolio to better market and promote yourself and your business. She believes curation is the one big thing that can bring you bookings, recognition, and profitability with your photography. Blair is the former co-owner of Junebug Weddings. The founder and editor-in-chief of World's Best Wedding Photos. She’s written over 2,000 bios, created content for hundreds of websites, and is a regular speaker at top industry events. In a recent email exchange, she wrote: Since we last recorded in 2020, the wedding photography industry has been through many changes. There are new technologies and trends, and new challenges in terms of marketing. I would love to talk with you about what has emerged in the last five years and how your listeners can boost their businesses now. I was keen to hear more, expecting you'd feel the same, so I'm rapt to bring this interview to you. In this interview, Blair shares how to book luxury photography clients and why it starts with the right images—and words. Here's some more of what we covered in the interview: Why your portfolio is your biggest marketing asset—and how to curate it with purpose The massive industry shifts since 2020 that most photographers are still ignoring How the elopement market has exploded—and why it’s a perfect fit for many creatives The real key to attracting luxury clients (hint: it’s not just your images) How to use your portfolio to speak directly to your dream clients Why your words matter just as much as your photos when it comes to booking The science behind first impressions—and how to win someone’s attention in seconds How to define and connect with your ideal client more effectively Why chasing trends can water down your work—and what to do instead The power of consistent branding across your website, socials, and messaging Why local referrals are still gold, especially for long-term sustainability What AI can do for you—and what it never will A smarter way to experiment with trends without losing your identity How diversifying your work can stabilise your income all year round When to invest in prestige marketing—and when it’s just ego spend What’s on Offer for Premium Members If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet. Plus, special member-only interviews. There's been a real explosion of elopement photography around the world that became huge during COVID and remains huge. – Blair deLaubenfels You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online. Seriously, that's not all. Build your business around who you authentically are, because if you don't, you're going to end up getting burned out, and you're not going to like your own work. – Blair deLaubenfels In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business. What is your big takeaway? Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Blair shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode. If you can get back to the people in 15 minutes, you're going to be the first person to get hired. – Blair deLaubenfels If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Blair, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below. How to Sell Like a Mofo – New Live Training for Photographers If you’ve ever said “I hate selling”… this one’s for you. No sleazy tactics. No pushy scripts.Just a real-world sales process that works — taught by a working photographer who's doing this every day. (Yep, the same legend behind “Advertise Like a Mofo” – Richard Grenfell is back.) This live 2-part training is made for photographers who want to: Feel confident on sales calls (even if you hate the phone) Sell more, without sounding salesy Set up your shoot to sell more images before you even pick up the camera Handle objections, talk pricing, and walk clients through the sale with ease Session 1: Thursday May 15 @ 8am AEST Session 2: Thursday May 22 @ 8am AEST Replays available if you can’t make it live Just USD$397 (price doubles after the live calls) Register early and get “Advertise Like a Mofo” FREE (normally USD$197) or another awesome Masterclass. Head here for all the details and to grab your spot: https://learn.photobizx.com/sell-like-a-mofo/ If you’re a working photographer and want to sell more without selling your soul — this training is for you. iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons. Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome! Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show. At the luxury level, the thing about luxury is, what makes it luxury, other than just the quality, is that other people can't have it. – Blair deLaubenfels If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name. Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them. The first photo they see, they're going to see it in much less than one second, and about 30% of people will decide whether to hire you right then. – Blair deLaubenfels Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​ Here are the latest reviews… ★★★★★ This podcast is a goldmine for photographers! Via Google Reviews by Sydney Opera House Photoshoot expert, Sarah Gardan of Sarah Iris Photography, in Australia on May 2nd, 2025. Andrew is absolutely amazing – his podcast is a goldmine for photographers at any stage of their business journey. Every episode of Photo Biz Xposed is full of real, actionable advice, insightful interviews, and down-to-earth encouragement. What sets Andrew apart is not just his deep industry knowledge, but the care he takes in showing up for his listeners week after week. He’s also sounds like a really great human being – kind, generous, and genuinely invested in helping photographers succeed. Listening has helped me improve my marketing, refine my client experience and stay motivated. A must-listen for any photographer building a business they love! ★★★★★ All the questions you would want to ask Via Google Reviews by Hunter Valley and Tamworth Wedding and Family Photographer, Eloise Moir, in Australia on May 3rd, 2025. This podcast is full of relevant, super useful information with a range of guests specialising in all kinds of photography. Andrew does an incredible job and asks all the questions you would want to, plus more I wouldn’t have thought of. Recommend it to anyone interested in photography. ★★★★★ Totally 5 stars – if I could give more, there would be plenty more! Via Google Reviews by Newcastle Commercial Photographer Linda Beks of  ME Photography in Australia on May 2nd, 2025. Thanks, Andrew. I have so enjoyed your podcasts and your friendly voice—it’s as if I have known you for years and years. You honestly get me through the most boring drives, as I always get to listen to your podcasts. I have just been to the Philippines and every spare moment I listened to your interviews that I didn’t have the time for prior. I feel like I've taken you on an adventure too haha. Even today, the day after arriving home, a 5-hour drive to Sydney for a day of headshots, you killed my time, totally loving it big time, and although being a professional photographer for over 20 years, I'm always learning something! I also feel connected to the amazing photographers in your Facebook group; they and you are the best! Again, big big thanks. Linda Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode: Art, Life and Business Website Blair deLaubenfels on LinkedIn Blair deLaubenfels on Facebook World's Best Wedding Photos Website The World's Best Wedding Photos on Instagram Episode 378: Blair DeLaubenfels – How to curate your way to photography success Episode 168: Two Mann Studios – Careful Curation is the Key to Photography Success Episode 012: Jerry Ghionis – Cooking Up Wedding Photography Success, Don’t Get Caught in the Fire Episode 593: James and Schulze – How to break into the ultra-luxury wedding photography market Curation is the one big thing to bring you bookings, recognition and profitability with your photography business. – Blair deLaubenfels Thank you! Thanks for tuning in. A big thanks to Blair for generously sharing this conversation—her perspective is a breath of fresh air in an industry that’s constantly shifting. She’s someone who’s not just watching the trends but helping photographers navigate them with strategy and heart. From portfolio curation to client connection and building a brand that truly reflects you, Blair packed this interview with clarity and direction. Hope you get as much from it as I did. Don't confuse your hobby with your business. A business is a business, and you have to be 110%. – Blair deLaubenfels That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business! Thanks, and speak soon Andrew Episode Transcript Email Download New Tab 615: Blair deLaubenfels – Booking Luxury Photography Clients Starts with the Right Images—and Words   Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest was first interviewed for Episode 378 of the podcast where she detailed the best ways to curate your portfolio to better market and promote yourself and your business. And she believes curation is the one big thing to bring you bookings, recognition and profitability with your photography business. She is the former co-owner of Junebug Weddings. She's the founder and editor-in-chief at World's Best Wedding Photos. She's written over two thousand bios, created content for hundreds of websites, maybe even thousands, and is a regular speaker at top industry events. In a recent email exchange, she wrote to me saying, since we last recorded in 2020 the wedding photography industry has been through many changes. There are new technologies and trends and new challenges in terms of marketing. I'd love to talk with you about what has emerged in the last five years and how your listeners can boost their businesses now. I'm talking about the wonderful, experienced, talented, and great interview guest, Blair deLaubenfels, and I'm rapt to have her with us now. Blair, welcome back. Blair deLaubenfels: Thank you so much, Andrew, what a sweet introduction. Thank you. Andrew Hellmich: Look, it's a pleasure. What are the main things that you've seen that have changed since we last talked? Blair deLaubenfels: Yeah, so much, right? So people, gosh, what a challenging time COVID was, and now we have another set of very challenging situations going on geopolitically. So, you know, we've kind of gone from one pressure cooker to another, and there's been relief for many people in between. But there, you know, people had to rethink the way that they ran their businesses. A lot of people had to get much more serious about the structure and processes and how to do their marketing in order to come out of that COVID issue. Then we had a little reprieve. But it took a long time for people to start getting engaged again and starting, you know, to be involved again. And during this time, we had a ton of people enter the market. So that was already happening, but there's been a massive push to people to enter the market, and it's very easy to do nowadays more than ever, about the way that you show your website, your social media. You can seem like a very experienced photographer from a marketing standpoint, and you can find yourself in a lot of trouble putting that forward and then not being able to deliver. So I've seen, gosh, there's been so many trends just in a short amount of time. There's also been a real explosion of elopement photography around the world that became huge during COVID, and it remains huge. So there's lots of people marketing in that section. There's people who are still doing photo journalism mid-range budgets. A lot of new photographers have chosen to try to seize the luxury wedding market. So many of them have paid to be in Vogue and other magazines to sort of buy social capital. They've gone to a lot of high-end photo shoots, which are very expensive. So we have people entering the market spending a lot of money on advertising and photo shoots and things like that, to get into the luxury market, then finding out that if you're not a person who wants to work for the planner instead of the photographer, who doesn't want to take a lot of details, or who doesn't have a lot of connection with planners in general, in the relationships that you have, all of that money kind of goes to nothing. So my love for is always to make people successful because I love artists. I love artists of all kinds, and photography is my number one passion. I was a photographer for many years, wedding and portrait photographer before I launched Junebug. I always have my camera with me, and I think it's absolutely priceless what wedding photographers do. And also, really, I admire them so much, because there's so many different parts, right? You have to be a commercial photographer, you need to be a photo journalist, all of different things you have to do to be a good photographer, and you need to be a good person, right? And then you need to know how to run a business and deal with all the changing technology and all of those things. So I just have deep admiration for wedding photographers, and really just want to help them. So those are the main things I've seen those markets go in those different directions in the last few years. So I don't want to just go on and on. Let you ask me what you're interested in. Andrew Hellmich: That's the review that gives us already so many things to explore. Before we dive deeper into any of those, can you give the listener an idea about what you actually do, like, what is World's Best Weddings? How do you bring in an income? And how do you work? What's your role in the wedding industry? Blair deLaubenfels: Yeah, so it's funny, if I actually would have stayed a photographer, I probably would have made way more money than I did. I made a good amount of money on Junebug. My journey was I started out in fine art school. I became a wedding and (Porsche ) photographer. I was very lucky to be able to do high-end weddings out of the gate, because of some connections. I enjoyed it immensely, and then I wanted to be sure that the people I was working with got good references to florists, to DJs, to all of those things, because I would just hate to go to a wedding and find someone disappointed. And my friends and I created a list of the best people in Seattle, where we live, and at the time, it was perfect timing for blogs. I went and bought a book called SEO for Dummies, and we went out of the gate. And timing was perfect for us. So we created a website that was very much about beautiful photography, and I created the contest called the best of the best and photobug and all of that because of my deep passion for it. And so it set us apart from the other places, because a lot of the media outlets, and they still do, and they did then, is they choose sort of a style that they like, right? So Martha Stewart, it's light and airy. It's been that for 20 years. Everything's a little over exposed. It has a certain vibe. Vogue goes through these wild swings of changes what they think is cool, and it sets trends that are sometimes horrific and sometimes actually cool and but people follow them and emulate them. And, you know, I have my feelings about that, so I feel. Oh, give me back on track here because I'm kind of, I'm thinking about so many things in terms of. Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I'm curious about, like, what do you actually do in the wedding industry now? How do you earn an income these days? Blair deLaubenfels: Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So I'm so much about people having their distinctive voice and showing good photography and being able to recommend good people. So that's what Junebug was all about, right? And we decided to close Junebug. Just after many years of working together, some of the partners were ready to move on. And unfortunately, my only child died, and he was 22 years old. We still don't know what that was, died in his sleep. And so I took the money that I got from Junebug, which was really quite substantial, and I traveled in Europe for about three and a half years, and then I came back and launched the World's Best on what I had remaining, and COVID hit. And so that's been a labor of love for me. I actually don't make money from that, and we've turned down thousands of applications to join because I still am absolutely devoted to the idea that couples should have experienced good photographers at their wedding, because it is priceless to them. It can't be made back up. So it even though this is a labor of love for me, I was like, I'm not going to let it go, and I'll just use my consulting skills, which are, I've been writing since I was a little kid, and I've been curating photos for 22 years, and those are my two loves. And so I do that as a consultant, and I help people update their websites, create business plans, but mainly curate their work for maximum impact. So that's like curated so they can win awards, or they can get published, or they can create a portfolio and a home page that will get people to buy their work. And that's what I do most of and then, because I have just sort of a natural way with words and understand grammar and English very well, I often see there's a lot of issues that I see why I'm curating the photos. And then people say, can you fix that? And then I'll just rewrite the whole site for them on brand, right? So I think that is like, number one love is curation, number two is copywriting, but they're very close together. Andrew Hellmich: Okay, that's interesting because I said in the intro that you know, you feel that curation is one of the best ways to get recognition, to be profitable, to bring in bookings, attract clients, but you're also a copywriter. So do you feel it's the photos or the words that do the converting? When someone comes to the website? Blair deLaubenfels: Well, they must go together, and I think that's the thing. I honestly, I don't think I've ever seen a website that I couldn't improve, but most of them, I could improve a lot. And so a lot of times when people come to me and want to be on our site, I don't accept that application, because I don't feel like the user is going to understand what's going on when they get to their website, that they're not going to understand what it is that sets them apart, what kind of photos they can expect from their wedding. So I want it to be when somebody gets to their website, or that gets to their social media accounts, that they clearly understand this brand and they understand who they're dealing with, and you can't really do that unless your photos and your copywriting go together. And I would take it a step further with copywriting is that copywriting is there to support your photos because you're an artist, so even how long your paragraphs are, how big the font is, those kinds of things, everything should be supporting the photo. I'd like, right before talking with you, I was working with someone who had, they have beautiful photo, and then they'd have more text than it was necessary, and that would really run down the screen, and very much so on a phone. And I'm like, no, we need to tighten this up so the photo speaks. The whole point is to get the photo to speak and the copywriting to support it. Andrew Hellmich: I understand what you're saying. Most websites, you know, someone will have, you know, a great hero photo at the top, or a little slide show at the top that will pull people in. Is that what you feel is what getting people over the line, those photos? Or do you think they have to connect? It's the words that actually make the connection. Blair deLaubenfels: Well, okay, so the photos have to be on point for that ideal client. So the first photo they see, they're going to see it in much less than one second, and about 30% of people will decide whether to hire you right then. They don't know that they did, right? But if you sell them an emotional photo that is right on brand for you. So for instance, if that person is really wants to travel to somewhere spectacular in Europe, and they want this beautiful landscape shot, this epic sort of elopement, if you show them where they want to be and they connect with that, then they're going to decide to hire you before they read anything that you have to say. So, it's really photos do speak a thousand words in less than a second. So generally, what I do is I figure out I do all this work with the client before we ever even look at the photos, to figure out who is the ideal client for them. Then we go through and pick out the hero shots, like you were talking about. Then we pick out the first five shots are only for that ideal client. We'll take them on an emotional journey. So that first photo is going to either do a few things, either going to make them go, "Wow!", or they're going to say, "Ah", or they're going to say, "Yeah, I want to feel like that.", right? So there's these different emotional reactions we want to have from somebody. And you know, the client who wants the big landscape, you know, you want to show them that, but the person who wants to feel incredibly connected to their family, then it can open up with a shot where, you know, mom and dad are hugging them, or dad just saw her come into the room, and, you know, is blown away by seeing her in her dress, or these kinds of things. So once you understand what that ideal client is, then you can make that emotional connection. You make the emotional connection with the first photo, and then you take them on this emotional journey. So if you want it, let's say you're somebody who is specialized, and people love to party, you can have a great opening party shot. Then all of those other five photos are going to feel upbeat, but they're going to have that energy of, "Oh, this day is so fun!". Or, if it's a luxury person, you're going to want a photo where primarily the bride, you know, and I'm not being sexist here, but so a lot at the luxury end, there's a lot of women making those decisions, and they want, they spend a lot of money on items, and want to look a certain way. And so if you have that photo where the bride looks breathtaking, and there's this beautiful background, and then it's like, oh, and then she's swept away. And you know, all of this sort of perfume ad type stuff, right? That is going to completely connect with that luxury client. So it's always, it always comes down to your ideal client. Once you have that slideshow, then your tagline has got to go with that, right? So it would be really weird to get a party tagline under a luxury set of photographs. So I write completely differently for the party crowd, right? The party crowd is all about connection. It's all about fun. But at the luxury level, less is more. So when I'm writing then, I write a lot less text. It will be very much focused on sort of that, yeah, the swept away feeling, the graceful elegance. Things being very even more minimal with the photographs. How many you show? Andrew Hellmich: Right Blair deLaubenfels: It's more about, you know, as people have learned, it's more about as featured in Vogue, as featured in Elle. All this, you know, kind of what were the shoes she was wearing, what was the dress she was wearing. So the all becomes that kind of thing. But there's so many ways to be successful in this market, and the one thing I want people to do is just to stay with their distinctive voice, like what will sustain them and make them really happy about their own personal work. And then they can make the client around that, and then they can make the whole brand around that. Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so the photographers that you're mainly working with or helping, are they trying to level up their business, you know, get into a whole new market, or are they just looking to capitalize on what they already do and do well? Blair deLaubenfels: A few of them would like to get into different markets, but getting in the luxury wedding market, I'm always warning people, it is a different world. You are not working for the couple, you're working for the planner. So you're on a team, right? And the way that you behave, your etiquette, your dress, all of those things are very different, and there's a lot of very artistic personalities that are photographers, and they're not willing to do that. They don't want to do it, and wouldn't be happy. So if I'm helping them get into the luxury market, I also want them to understand the structure of working within it and be sure that that's a move they want to make. For the most part, the people I work with, love the work they do, and want to do more of it. Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. And just to be clear for the listener, are you generally working with photographers that have a revenue of, you know, let's say 200,000 plus, or 500,000 plus, or are you helping the $30,000 photographer that's looking to get to one and 200,000? Blair deLaubenfels: Gosh, you know, it's everything. I have a mentee that was just here I was working with this afternoon. We actually have a trade that we do because she can't afford to pay me. But I've gotten her second shooting gigs with some of the biggest photographers in the world. You know, helped her in every aspect. And I would have assumed by next year, she'll be a very popular photographer. I think she has 19 weddings this year. But I've also worked with people that are big, famous names in the market. Some of them aren't as successful as you think, right? Might look like a lot of shiny from outside, but it may be true that they actually aren't booking weddings, or they're not booking them for as high as you would think. Then they've worked with people who you've never heard of, who work in, you know, middle America, and have thriving businesses because of the connections they have in their communities. So there's a lot of people like that. Andrew Hellmich: Because with those three different examples. So the mentee that you were helping earlier, like, why do you do that? I mean, do you see something in her work that you think, well, she should be at this high level, but she's just not there. Do you see something in her work, in her personality? Blair deLaubenfels: All of that, she has a really go to personality, right? She's a young, ambitious, really go to personality. And she does a bunch of social media work for me, in exchange, so I do like an hour of work for her, and she does like four for me, and she does a great job at it, and it's something that, you know, I can use my connections and my experience to save her time and money getting to where she wants to be. Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay, that makes sense. So what about the famous photographer that you alluded to, or photographers that you know, from the outside looking in, they look to be doing incredibly well, but they're not doing as well as you might think. Is there a general reason why they're not going as well as what we think they are? Blair deLaubenfels: Sometimes there's a lack of business processes, you know, there's too much time wasted on things. They can't shoot enough weddings, or they're a destination photographer, and they're spending a tremendous amount of time on the road, and they're not really paying attention to like, "Oh, I went to Italy, but then I spent another seven days there." Andrew Hellmich: Right Blair deLaubenfels: Right? Because it was fun. But at the end of the day, you still have to bring in a certain amount of revenue, so figuring out how to do that helping people figure out how to create other revenue streams in down season. You know, a lot of times you'll find out that somebody you say, "What do I love to shoot?" And somebody say, "It's really weird, I like to shoot food." Well, okay, so then why not shoot for cookbooks? Why not start something on the side? Maybe they want to shoot commercially, but they just don't know how to do it. And just giving them the encouragement to say, look, it's just about contracting all you need. Literally, in a weekend, you'll know how to do this. You can do this and pitch this. So helping people see what more they're capable of, and then really creating these very niche brands that are strong, so that people see the differentiator right away. And they're like,"I just want to work with them." One of the people I really like in terms of branding is just a fun couple in the UK, Emma and Rich, and everything about their website has this kind of almost hippie vibe. You know, everything's kind of these psychedelic colors, and it's just kind of crazy. But all the taglines, everything works. It's all cohesive branding, right? I don't just write for photographers. I also write for the primarily luxury wedding market for like florists and things like that. Photographers any market, but I work their luxury wedding market for other things, and having that exact tagline that drives them in and then shows like the work that backs it up, like it just having that niche, that feeling that you know exactly what brand you're dealing with, and nothing surprises you. None of the wording surprises you. There's no typos. There's nothing that stops the user from having the experience. And that's what I see all the times. I see people do good writing, but there's grammatical errors, there's run-on sentences, there's typos. So no matter how good you write, if someone's reading that, they're going to stop and feel confused just for that split second. But you never want your user to be confused about where to go or what they're reading. What about with that example, if people these days, you know, basically copy their copy, put it into ChatGPT and say, can you fix any grammatical errors? I mean, you're smiling as I'm saying it, but that's what people are doing. Wouldn't that give a pretty good result? Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I love ChatGPT, actually, it's a great idea producer, and if you write, and especially if you pay the upgraded one, and you verbally ask it questions. And you just tell it to hold, you just say, "I'm going to just tell you all these things. And I want all this from you, but I know no feedback yet", right? "No nothing until I say 'done'". Then you get a lot of really good information. Like, if I want to write 20 ideas for a photo booth, I can put that into ChatGPT, and it will give me these wonderful things. However, it sounds so stilted, and it wants to say things like, "Oh, is this breathtaking this and that", has a lot of run-on sentences. It wants to do it like, almost wants to overthink. So, and I find that it's just a zero in the high-end luxury market. It says it's trying to do it, but it's just really overselling and try using a lot of, like, big words. I don't think it understands class structure. Andrew Hellmich: Right Blair deLaubenfels: The same way, I use ChatGPT for almost everything, and I end up just ripping a lot of it apart. Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. Blair deLaubenfels: Because it just sounds so formulaic, but it gets stuff done faster. And I, one of the things I love it does for me is make hashtags. Andrew Hellmich: Okay, for your social media posts. Blair deLaubenfels: Yeah, so I'll just put up my Instagram post and say, you know, here's the Instagram post, and what are the hashtags? And then I only have to add one or two, rather than, you know, make another 15. So that's really helpful for me as well. But people know when something is from the heart, and when it comes to photographers. I was just talking to a podcaster today that had me on a few months ago in the UK, and I'm doing the writing for his site. And what I'm doing is I'm taking the best of what he wrote, because that comes from the heart, and then, you know, really getting to know him and his ideal clients so I can write in his voice. But people know if it's not your voice, they know if it doesn't match the photos, something's not quite right. Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. Blair deLaubenfels: And you know, GPT is never, it's never going to know, I don't think ever going to know people as individuals the way that real people do. Andrew Hellmich: True, true. Blair deLaubenfels: Yeah Andrew Hellmich: Okay, let me take you back to Emma and Rich, who you mentioned earlier, and you said, I think you said, you know, they've got that hippie vibe, and that's the sort of people they're trying to attract with a brand like that. Will they ever get to be high end? Because I feel like hippie isn't high end. Blair deLaubenfels: No, they'll never want to be in the luxury market. They would, that's just not who they are at all. But they can charge on the high end of what they do. So they can charge in the mid-market at the high end. And so what I find in the UK, which is very different from the US, but in the UK, people are charging anywhere from 2500 pounds to 4000, sort of in that mid-market range. In the US, it's more 4000 to seven. But if they're doing 35 weddings a year, right, and they're running the business well, they can do okay. And also, if they're doing, especially if they're doing portraits, right, or they're doing other sorts of work during the off season, then they can easily make a good living. Andrew Hellmich: So do you feel like the days of just focusing on the wedding genre are gone? Unless you are super high-end, like you need to supplement your income through the off-season or midweek? Blair deLaubenfels: No, but you have to work so hard, if that's what, just what you're going to do like, I'm thinking of a woman here in Seattle. Her name's Sasha Reiko, and she just works like crazy. She's 40 years old and owns two homes. You know that she's, one of them she's paid off, and she's got a beautiful second home, and she's doing that all on just busting it in wedding photography. But she's doing, you know, two weddings a weekend, and packing, you know, and has a really brilliant marketing plan and keeps up with her past clients. It takes a tremendous amount of work, especially if you're doing it on your own in the wedding industry. That's why you have to be fired up. That's why I tell people you have to love the art you do, because if you don't, it's just not sustainable. You just, you won't have that excitement after the wedding to see your work. And if it's just rote, you're just going to get burned out and go, you know, get another job. Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that's true as well. I think it's hard to be, you know, stay passionate about something you're just not passionate about. If it's just a grind and you're doing it just for an income that's very, very tough. Blair deLaubenfels: Yeah, nobody wants to be that way. And, you know, and I don't want to be discouraging, because I think photography, the skill itself, can be used in so many more ways than people think. I mean, just like, look what I did, you know, is like launched Junebug, and then have a consulting business and have World's Best and there's so much that you can do with your knowledge around photography. It's really just about how creative you can get and how much you want to work. So a lot of times when people say, "Oh, I have this horrible year in wedding photography", I just but "You're still a photographer, right? And you can still shoot anything." So figure out what else you love that you can monetize if it's low, and when things are great, then just shoot what you want to shoot. Just shoot weddings. But that's one of the wonderful things about being an artist, is you have this freedom to make decisions. Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. I mean, I feel like I see this. I'm not sure if you see it as much, but I see a lot of wedding photographers moving into portraits, realizing that the turnaround time is quicker. There's less drama, there's less time between getting paid, and if you look at the hourly rate, it's probably more profitable for most photographers. Do you see that happening? Blair deLaubenfels: Absolutely, that started happening years ago. And it is true. I have many friends who make much more money as portrait photographers than they do as wedding photographers. I also have lots of clients in the boudoir section. They're surprisingly making a lot of money. You think it would be so niche, but people there, there's not a lot of really good ones. So that's making, people are making good money doing that. Many people I know, I've gone into commercial photography, many, and even small, like things you wouldn't even think of like, there's a little town outside of Seattle called Snoqualmie, and it's very cute and charming. And the gal into a big wedding shooter there. You know, it rains constantly from November to April. So she has all these jobs where once a month, she goes into like a bakery or a woman's clothing store, and she takes all the commercial photos, and she gives them everything they need to put up on Instagram for the next month. And they sign up on a quarterly basis. And she's got all of this, like returning money, and she just goes in there and does these things through the year. And so if you have good connections, I mean, I think so much of photography nowadays is the who are your connections, whether it's connections with planners or it's connections with local businesses, with groups that you go to. One woman I work with, she gets all of her money from referral from just wedding group she goes to the, you know, whether it's like the international caterers association or whatever different kind of thing. She gets all of that through referral. So I think you have to match your art and your personality and just get creative and decide, "I'm not going to give up being a photographer. If that's what I love to do. I'm going to photograph whatever I have to photograph and stay afloat. And if what I want to do is weddings, then I just push on it, push on it, push on it. And good years, I'll be able to do that, and other years, maybe I won't, but don't give up." It's not a bad living if you're running your business well, it's not a bad living. But no, the only people I know that have ever gotten filthy rich on wedding photography are people that work for celebrities and celebrity planners, and then people who create product, or people that have really great education systems, like Two Mann, you know, where they've got a really smart and, you know, and expensive education system. So those are the people I see are like Jerry Ghionis, you know, with Ice Lights, and he's got, you know, reflectors, things like that, so if you have product attached as well. But again, that's one of the things I love. There's so many ways to approach this. Andrew Hellmich: True, true. Blair, there was one other sort of category of photography that you mentioned earlier that we haven't discussed, and that was the one that you said, looking at them, you wouldn't know they're as successful as they are, and they're the ones with connections. You know, they're sort of flying under the radar a bit. I don't know if you use that term, but you said they're very successful, and it's because of their connections. Is that connections with planners or just in the community? What did you mean by that? Blair deLaubenfels: Yeah, so can be anything from, I'm working with a woman right now from North Carolina, and she's very attached to her church, and so she does tons of baptisms and confirmations and all of those kinds of things. And of course, those kids get older and they get married, right? And then when you're in that community, the families all know each other. So by the time you're shooting that, you know, the first kid's wedding that you shot their confirmation, now you're shooting all of them, and they're just coming and coming and coming. And the same thing is true, like I have a friend in the Muslim community, I have friends in the queer community. So if you have communities that you hang out in and those become your referrals for, like, lifelong referrals. Yeah, so depending on how you arrange that, now you can create your own community, right, where you like, do that through vendor relationships. Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so you're not talking so much then about, you know, having a relationship with a particular wedding planner who sends you a lot of work. This is more general, more broad. Blair deLaubenfels: Yeah, at the mid-market. At the high-end, you must have relationships with planners, because nobody plans their own wedding at the high-end. Andrew Hellmich: Right Blair deLaubenfels: So at the high-end, all of being in Vogue and all of that is not going to make any difference to your business in the long run, if you can't make relationships with planners. Blair deLaubenfels: So that's why people go to these shoots, and they say they've been in Vogue, because they're courting the planner. And if they can get the planner to work with them, and they can get high-end planners to work with them reliably, then they don't have to do any other marketing, like, there's a couple in Los Angeles named Amy and Stewart, and they work for celebrity wedding planners, and they do zero marketing, zero like they're on World's Best but they, I think they're on there because they love me. I think they just, they love me in the in the brand, but they don't need any marketing at all. They're just busy all year long. Andrew Hellmich: Okay. Are you familiar with James and Otto of James x Schulze? Blair deLaubenfels: Of course, yeah, yes. Otto Schulze used to be on Junebug way back in the day, so when he was shooting, yeah, and then they got together, and they do a luxury education, right? Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, and they do luxury weddings. I interviewed them not too long ago, but they charge $80,000 for their wedding photography. But they talked a lot about, you know, the only way that happens is through relationships with wedding planners. Blair deLaubenfels: Absolutely. Andrew Hellmich: And some of those, but they nurtured those relationships for years and years before they actually got bookings. But now they're coming. Blair deLaubenfels: Yes. And John and Joseph are some of my dear friends in LA, they used to be in Seattle. Years ago, they would shoot 80-85 weddings a year. Now they're down in LA. They've got a whole slew of second shooters. They shoot for big celebrity planners. All of their stuff's on NDA, and they make so much money. It's just out of this world. Andrew Hellmich: So is that a good market to try and break into? Or would you say, be happy in the higher end of the middle market, where it's less stress, less drama.   Sign up to listen to the Premium Version   Andrew Hellmich: So good. Well, one more thing I do want to ask you about paying to get into the luxury market that you mentioned earlier, before that, what is the best place for people to go and explore, to learn more about you, to potentially work with you to see what you do. Where should we go to do that? Blair deLaubenfels: You can either go to World's Best Wedding Photos. There's a Contact Us at the bottom. You can write to me there. You can follow us on Instagram, write to me there, and then my consulting company is called Art, Life, and Business. And so it's just Art Life in business.com, and it's got a long name, but as I said, I believe in making everything holistic, and so when you work with me, it's about those three things, right? It has to be about all three of those things, Andrew Hellmich: Art, Business and Life Blair deLaubenfels: Because otherwise I don't think it works Andrew Hellmich: True. With the World's Best Wedding Photos is that a marketplace for people looking to find and hire photographers. Or is it something else? Blair deLaubenfels: Yeah, it is. So we have a directory for that, and we do the curation for it. So we build these really nice listings and profiles for people. And of course, we have a blog, and all the kind of things that a normal business that is pushing to couples would have. We also have a really highly searchable gallery. And so one of the things we do that other companies don't do is when we get a photo, we optimize it a lot of different ways. So we create a new URL, a new file name, we tag it for over 300 different categories, whichever ones it fits in to have this very deep database. And then it makes it easy for me to go in, like, for instance, this week's Instagram contest is the groom and his guys. And so I can go in and I can find that from 10s of 1000s of photos and choose the top 10 for this week that are just right in that niche category. And so we do a lot of promotion. We do welcome reels for everybody who joins, and then we do a lot of promotion on social media, and we're able to do a lot of it at a high level of curation, because it's pre-curated. So every single photo that goes on our site I curate, and it doesn't go on the site unless I've already think it's good. And so then I have this great database to promote people from. Andrew Hellmich: Okay? And so not any wedding photographer can be listed there. Can they? Blair deLaubenfels: Oh, no, no, no. People think I'm nuts. We've turned down over 3000 applications. We have 360 members. I probably wouldn't even have to do consulting, if I would just take the people that apply. But no, they have to be working three years full time. Have done at least 50 weddings, they have to show us they apply, and then I go through their website and all of their Instagram, you know, I literally read their whole website to see if they can come on, see if it's good, if I think something's missing, even if it's like just a big disconnect on the website, but I think their portfolio is good, I still don't accept them, because for me, I just put myself in a couple shoes. And so if the couple is going there, I want to know that when they get there, it's going to make sense to them, and that it's not going to reflect badly on me that I'm recommend it. Andrew Hellmich: With Art, Life, and Business, like if you're going to do rewrite or help me with my website, do I answer a big questionnaire first, or do you just go to my website and start like working on it? How does that process work? Blair deLaubenfels: Well, I give people the option either to answer the questionnaire or just to meet with me for free before we start, because I usually like to have a 30 minute conversation about the ideal client. Once I understand the ideal client and I understand what the goal is for that person. So let's say you want to move in another market for three years, or you're moving from Australia to the US. Or I want to understand, first of all, what is your ideal client right now? What do you want to do right now? What do you want to do three years from now? And so that is really important to me. And then I kind of like, want my client to convince me, because I don't want to create anything that they just think they want. I want to know they really want it, you know, because sometimes people feel like, "Oh, I'm going to go to commercial because I don't have enough money and I'm going to do that now". But I wanted them to convince me that they want to do it, because I don't want people to spend time and resources going after something that won't work for them. So for me, it's better if we talk. I prefer to just jump online and, like, get into that. And so then I know, okay, whatever we're creating is really, really what you want, and then I can go full bore into it. I also do a lot of SEO for people. I think some people feel like they have to do it. Some people don't need to. It just depends on who you are. Some people SEO is vital for their business. So I always, I look at that too. How much do they need that? How much do they need traffic from Google? Frizzy, I was just saying with Martin Cheung, he doesn't need any traffic from Google. He already has a ton of work, but he works, he does video with his wife, and that's not really on the site yet. He's not really getting enough video booking. So we're going to, you know, try to move for that fun party vibe and bring the video in. But somebody else might be, oh, they really have a chance to nail the market in Buckinghamshire, like, you know, right? Not in London, because I'm never going to tell anybody I can get them on, you know, number one in London, they take hundreds and hundreds of hours of work. Sometimes people live in a small enough place, or a niche place, or a high end zip code, and I can get them to page one. And so I'm like, "Okay, let's talk about that. Would that be relevant for you?" Andrew Hellmich: Right. I just want to take you back to the copywriting for one second Blair, because I understand what you’re saying about the SEO, and I know how competitive those big keyword phrases are, but with the copywriting, are you writing? Let's say you're redoing my website. Are you writing in my language, or you purely writing for my ideal client in the language they want to hear? Blair deLaubenfels: I'm writing for your ideal client in your language. Andrew Hellmich: Okay, right. So that's why we have to have the chat and do the questionnaire, Blair deLaubenfels: Absolutely, because I could write for your ideal client, but if it's not your language, there's a disconnect when they meet you and book you. Andrew Hellmich: Okay. Because I imagine males talk well, I know they do talk different to females. Blair deLaubenfels: Oh, absolutely. But almost every photographer, most of the decision is made by women. So, but you don't want to then start writing in a feminine voice. That doesn't make any sense, right? But you also, so what you want to do is, and you're not going to write a bunch of flowery words and things. That's not generally how men talk. But what I want is I want no disconnect. So when I talk about cohesiveness, there's zero disconnect. So if you write the website and then you jump on an online call with that person, you don't want to shock that person like, "Hey, wait, you sounded like this super cool party guy, and now you're all buttoned down. "What? Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, okay. Blair deLaubenfels: You know this makes sense all the way through. And what I love to hear from people is, what are the adjectives you use? What are some of the phrases you think that you use frequently? What kind of, you know, when they explain to me? And a lot of times I'll record what they say, and they'll say these little snippet things that are just brilliant, but they don't know how to turn that into writing, but that's the way you talk. That's your phrases. Those are the things that you use. And if I can use as many of the kinds of phrases that you use, and have those go to the ideal client, when they come to you, it's all going to make sense. And then they're going to say, "Yeah, I thought I was going to hire him. And now I'm yeah, I'm definitely going to." Andrew Hellmich: So good. All right, this is perfect. I'll link to both the websites in the show notes to accompany this audio. The very last thing I want to ask you, because I know we've got an overtime already, and I can see it's even getting dark where you are right now. Blair deLaubenfels: That's right Andrew Hellmich: You mentioned earlier, you know, paying to get into luxury. And I think you use advertising in Vogue as an example. If I have the work to support it, is that a good idea? Or is it just never a good idea? Blair deLaubenfels: Oh, if you have the work to, well, first of all, getting the work to support it often means having a high end wedding or going to a fashion shoot. If what you want to do is to be in the luxury market, you understand all of the trade-offs that you're going in, and that's the distinctive voice that you want to have and where you want your business to go, then it does make sense. But you just have to understand the whole package that you're buying into is when you're buying to be advertising in Vogue. You're not spending $500, you're spending 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of dollars. And when you're going, I mean, it can be 15, $20,000 to get a real wedding in there, and then you're going to these fashion shoots, and the fashion shoots can be six, $7,000 a piece. So it has to make sense that you're all in because that money has to be regained, you to have a business, right? Otherwise, you have a hobby that you spend a lot of money on. So those are the things I try to tell people. Don't confuse your hobby with your business. A business is a business, and you have to be 110% in. Andrew Hellmich: A high-end brides or brides-to-be actually flicking through Vogue and potentially calling or booking or inquiring about those photographers that advertising in there? Blair deLaubenfels: Yes, but what they're doing is, when they see the Vogue icon and it says published in Vogue, they're making a decision, a lot of times this will be less true over the years as this gets more out, because Vogue didn't always do this, or Elle, or, like all the big magazines do this now, but they didn't used to. So there's still a perception that they're not. And the couples are still having that perception of, "Oh, wow, that's really prestigious". If the couple cares about prestige, right? If they're spending a ton of money, let's say, you know, at the high-end, they're spending a million dollars plus. I mean, I should shoot weddings like that. And they really care about prestige. They're inviting business colleagues, you know, the whole it's a very different thing, if they're doing that, they care about that stuff. And so that social proof can be a big differentiator. It also can be for the planner, because the planner wants to be featured in Vogue. So if you've already been in Vogue and you have a connection with the editor there that you can then put another wedding into, right? They care about that, because every planner wants to be in Vogue, right? Or they want to be "Yeah, for here it's Elle, Vogue anywhere in the world." Elle, Martha Stewart, those are still running the game in terms of the luxury market. There are some other outlets I think Over The Moon is doing pretty well, but yeah, you always have to be speaking to this one niche of people and doing everything in your business to attract that one niche. And it's you know, again, as I say, if it's not authentic, you will not be able to continue it. Andrew Hellmich: Beautiful. Blair, that is a perfect, perfect place to leave this. This has been fascinating. It's been enlightening. It's been educational. Thank you so much for giving up some time and for being here and sharing everything you have. It's been a real pleasure again. Blair deLaubenfels: Oh yeah, thank you so so much. I so appreciate you having me, and it's yeah, very much pleasure to speak with you anytime. Scroll back to top Sign up to receive email updates Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast. powered by The post 615: Blair deLaubenfels – Booking Luxury Photography Clients Starts with the Right Images—and Words appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area Charles Moll of www.charlesmoll.com is a full-time wedding photographer based in Bozeman, Montana, with 7 years of experience. Before wedding photography, he honed his marketing, videography, and photography skills worldwide while working for non-profits. Since pursuing photography full-time, the Wedding Photo Journalists Association has recognised him as one of the top 150 photographers in the world. Around 80% of his business is weddings, with the other 20% being volume and family photography. His website and online presence are very wedding-centric. Most of his clients come from Google, referrals, networking groups, and The Knot and Wedding Wire. In the past 3 years, he's had to start from scratch twice after relocating. In this interview, Charles shares how he wins out-of-town wedding photography clients with smart SEO, not big advertising. Here's some more of what we covered in the interview: Seven years strong — Charles Moll has been running a full-time photography business for seven years now, earning his place among the top 150 wedding photographers worldwide. It's been a steady, intentional build, not an overnight story. Non-profit beginnings, business brain — Starting out in the non-profit sector gave Charles more than a good heart — it sharpened his marketing, video, and storytelling skills, which he’s carried straight into building a thriving photography business. Weddings by design — He didn’t fall into weddings by accident. Charles chose this path, wanting to combine meaningful storytelling with a business that could support him long-term. When COVID hit, he rebuilt — Like a lot of photographers, Charles took a hit when weddings disappeared. But instead of sitting back, he used the time to rework his pricing, double down on education, and come back stronger and more focused. From safe job to full-time leap — Leaving full-time work wasn’t a reckless jump. Charles mapped out milestones, kept a close eye on finances, and made the move carefully — managing both his mindset and money along the way. Rebuilding after every move — Relocating to a new city meant starting over — twice. But with strong SEO and consistent marketing, Charles kept enquiries coming and momentum steady. Tapping into a booming market — Based now in Bozeman, Montana, Charles is positioned perfectly in a growing luxury wedding hotspot — working across the state with clients who value quality and experience. Winning the Google game — Out-of-town couples don’t care who’s “known” locally — they care who shows up online. Charles made sure he’s the one they find, and it’s paying off. A brand that speaks for itself — The “Charles Moll” brand feels clean, professional, and premium. Couples feel that before they even enquire — it’s all been built intentionally. Quality over quantity — Rather than chasing 40 weddings a year, Charles works with 15–20 couples — the right fit — delivering a high-touch experience that clients remember and rave about. Pricing with a strategy — Raising prices was never about charging more for the sake of it. Charles restructured his offers to align with what his ideal clients actually want — and it’s working. Full-day coverage, full trust — Unlimited wedding day coverage removes pressure from couples and builds trust early — plus, it leads to bigger bookings naturally. Listings that make sense — Paid listings on platforms like The Knot and WeddingWire aren’t just throwing money away — they’re smart investments that continue to deliver genuine enquiries. A smooth path to booking — Quick video calls, clear next steps, no confusion. The faster and easier the process feels, the quicker couples commit. Leading, not selling — Charles positions himself as a guide, not a salesperson. That trust-first approach consistently leads to bookings without the hard sell. The small touches add up — He covers credit card fees for his couples — a simple gesture that leaves a big impression and builds loyalty. More than just great photos — Sure, the photos are beautiful, but it's the experience Charles creates that gets people talking — and referring. Albums that feel like heirlooms — Albums aren’t just products to upsell — they’re part of the experience. When couples see and feel them in real life, they want them. Designing albums together — Live album design calls aren’t just about getting sales — they deepen the emotional connection, leading to more pages and bigger orders naturally. Networking with purpose — Local networking groups aren’t just social time — they’re part of Charles’ bigger business plan, bringing in family shoots and extra work that keeps his business balanced year-round.   What’s on Offer for Premium Members If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet. Plus, special member-only interviews. I just put myself as the lowest priced photographer on there, because at that point, I was just like, I need to book weddings. I need to shoot… I just need to put my name out there and show that I'm doing work. – Charles Moll You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online. Seriously, that's not all. Going with that four full day unlimited collection has really been awesome. I thought it would have hurt me… but for whatever reason like that has allowed me to really provide just a huge amount more value to my clients, and then be willing to invest in my higher tier collections, which really surprised me. – Charles Moll In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business.     What is your big takeaway? Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Charles shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode. My process is identical. No matter where an inquiry comes through… As soon as I get their info, I'll try to get them on the phone, with the goal of getting folks to a video call where we can walk through everything. – Charles Moll If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Charles, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.     iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons. Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome! Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show. If there is something people are really excited about, I'll throw it into as a gift… just as an incentive to book more. – Charles Moll If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name. Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them. As soon as I dropped that second or that engagement session from that collection, it really opened up that package for a lot more folks… I do a four package method, so I'm really trying to book that, you know, second one from the top. – Charles Moll Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​ Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode: Charles Moll Website Charles Moll on Instagram Charles Moll on Facebook I'm constantly redoing my collections. I'm constantly tweaking my pricing, and it's really just trying to find, like, that sweet spot of, like, you know, what do I need to include to be able to book clients? You know, where are the sticking points in my collections? – Charles Moll Thank you! Really appreciate you tuning in. Big thanks to Charles for being so open and honest in this chat. There’s a lot of noise out there, and it’s great to hear from someone who’s actually shooting, still building, and doing it for the right reasons. We covered everything from spotting the fakes to finding the right support — and what it really looks like to build a business you’re proud of. Hope you love this one as much as I did. For me, I really use the networking groups to grow the other parts of my business outside of weddings, because, you know, wanting to be more in that high end wedding market, I want to keep my brand pretty, pretty focused online. – Charles Moll That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business! Thanks, and speak soon Andrew Episode Transcript Email Download New Tab 614: Charles Moll - Winning Out-of-Town Wedding Photography Clients with Smart SEO   Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest is a full time wedding photographer of seven years. He's based in Bozeman, Montana, in the US and before wedding photography, he was honing his marketing, videography, and photography skills across the globe while working for nonprofits. Since going all in with photography, he's been recognized as one of the top 150 photographers in the world by the Wedding Photojournalist Association. Around 80% of his business is weddings, with another 20 being volume and family photography. Now, in saying that, his website and online presence is very much wedding -centric. The majority of his clients are coming from Google, referrals, networking groups, plus The Knot and Wedding Wire, and in the past three years, he's had to start from scratch twice after relocating in the state. I'm talking about Charles Moll, and I am looking forward to learning so much more. Charles, welcome. Charles Moll: Thanks so much for having me, Andrew. I'm super excited to be here and, yeah, excited to chat a bit about business. Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic, mate. What? Why go all in with wedding photography when it sounds like you had a pretty awesome job working for the nonprofits? Charles Moll: Yeah, I think for me, like, wedding photography is always the most fun that I've had doing photography. I love, really the journalism aspect and telling people's stories. And pretty early on in photography, I realized, like, probably being a photojournalist isn't going to be something that will pay the bills very well. But, you know, weddings are a great way to still do that storytelling piece, get that front row seat to tell folks his stories, and, you know, actually be able to make a living as well. So for me, I just love weddings. They're a blast, and it's fun to see people on like, the just one of those really big days of their life, when it's a lot of big emotions for really everyone involved, from the bride and groom or, you know, the family, or whatever it might be. Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. I mean, weddings is the one, I guess, genre where you can be a photo journalist and get paid for it and make a good living doing it. Did you start shooting weddings while you were working for the nonprofits? Or, like, tell me about that transition? Charles Moll: Yeah. So I went to school for photography, graduated in 2017 and then worked for nonprofits, and I wanted to get into photography as one of those things where I was kind of too scared to take the leap into doing my own business. So, for me, it was the safe option to just have that nice nine to five type of job. But I think the first wedding I shot would have been 2017 or 2018 and it was just, it was just a blast, like I just loved it start to finish. And then after doing that, I was like, "Okay, I gotta figure out a way to actually make this work" and, you know, take this risk and try and make it into more of a career. Andrew Hellmich: What happened then? Did you, like, did you quit the other job? Did you start booking some weddings? Like, tell me about the actual transition. Charles Moll: 2019 was kind of my first year pursuing doing photography as a business. I picked up a few weddings and more family and just photo shoots there, trying to just get my name out there. I was really doing the shotgun approach, just throwing everything out that I could. I really did not think about my business in any thoughtful way at all during 2019 and then 2020 and COVID happened, and just absolutely demolished my business. You know, I think I had maybe one shoot that whole year. And really the main reason for that is I hadn't built any good procedures, good processes for my business, and the pandemic just tanked it. So 2021 rolled around and it was like, "Okay, I need to actually try and do something better". Things were opening up a bit in Montana. So really decided I need "Okay, if I'm going to take this leap to doing photography as a business, I need to do it a lot more thoughtfully. Start investing in education, reading books". And what I did that year is I had a profile on The Knot or Wedding Wire. I can't remember which one, and I just put myself as the lowest priced photographer on there, because at that point, I was just like, I need to book weddings, I need to shoot, I need to get out into the world. I need to meet people, and I just need to put my name out there and show that I'm doing work. And had a pretty okay. I mean, I shot a lot, but I didn't make any money that year, but it really allowed me to leverage my business to 2022 where I was able to quit my full time job, work part time through the winter, and then by 2023 was able to take my business full time. Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, that's a bit of a journey there. So in 2019 through to 2021 were you still working for the nonprofits, were you? Charles Moll: Yep, I was. I was doing fundraising and marketing. So it was a great opportunity with that job, just to learn a lot about how to how to grow a business, even though, you know, it was growing someone else's business, I learned a lot about social media, SEO, networking all those sorts of things and just how to communicate my value to people and just become a better communicator, which really reap dividends in actually being able to book higher and higher budget clients and take it full time. Andrew Hellmich: When you decided to go full time. Did you say that was 2022, 2023? Charles Moll: Yeah, 2022 was when I took the leap to quitting my job and being like, part full time. I had a part time job in the winter when things were slow and yeah, really, what the main reason for that was, is I was just super burned out. I mean, between working a full time job and then putting every spare moment into trying to get my business off of the ground. I was, I was just toast. Andrew Hellmich: I remember those days. I know what it's like. It is tough. Charles Moll: Yeah, it was, it was a lot, for sure. Andrew Hellmich: So did you have, like, a certain number of weddings that you needed to have on the books? Did you chat about this with your partner or your wife? Like, what was the exit strategy from the full time job? What was the catalyst that said, Okay, "I can make the leap now". Or did you just think, "You know what, I'm going to risk it?" Charles Moll: It was a bit of both. I think when I left, I had a pretty solid amount of weddings left that summer. I think I had eight or so, because I left my job mid-summer, and it's like, "okay, this will be enough to at least float me through", I think it was like October, November. And then if things, you know, money gets tight, I can pick up a part time job while I'm trying to book the next season. And that was kind of a weird time where, for whatever reason, I think it was mainly I did a big jump in pricing. I was able to book a ton of weddings for 2024 but 2023 was just kind of slow, and I think it was this thing of the people who were wanting to invest more in wedding photography, they were planning their wedding a little bit further out. So it was very much not a thoughtful decision. It was just like, "I can't do this anymore. I just need to do something different and take that risk". Andrew Hellmich: Were you scared to take the risk, or were you excited about it? How did you feel? Charles Moll: Oh, man, I was, I was freaking out the whole time. It was this thing, my wife and I had this kind of joke where I was like, "Okay, you need to give me a date that I can freak out, because otherwise I'm just going to freak out every day". So she's like, "Okay, you can't freak out till October 1st". It's like... Andrew Hellmich: Okay, cool. Charles Moll: I'm going to put my head down. I'm going to do what I need to do, and then when October 1st comes around, I'll freak out. And that just kind of became a rhythm that we would do, where you know, take these little gaps, and then it would be like, "Okay, I'm gonna try to make it till this date and then reassess". Because I don't know. I just found that if I was always worrying about, "Oh no, am I going to do? Am I doing enough?", I would just become so over critical and get more frozen, instead of being like, "All right, I have this date down the road. I'm going to do everything I can, and then when that date comes, I'll reassess". Andrew Hellmich: I believe I don't know, because I'm not a US citizen, but I understand that healthcare is a huge aspect in regards to having a full time job. So when you leave the full time job, I'm guessing you lose that healthcare or those healthcare benefits. Is that one of the first things you have to look after when you go out on your own? Or do you go onto your wife's healthcare? How does that side of things work? Charles Moll: I guess, fortunately and unfortunately, my nonprofit job didn't have health care. So it wasn't looking at our budget and things. It wasn't expense that we were looking or having to replace as much. It was just like, "Okay, this is already something we're paying for". You know, we didn't make enough to have to pay through the nose for it, but it was still, you know, we still had to pay a pretty penny, of course, but yeah, so thankfully and on, thankfully didn't have health care. So I think that made that transition a little less shocking. Of like, "Oh no, we need to find how to budget". You know, this much more a month, it was just like, "All right, well, this is already part of our budget. We know the numbers that we need to kind of hit". And yeah, my wife was working, I think she was part time, then she's in the process of going through grad school. And actually, she got into grad school that winter of, gosh, what that meant, 23 so, yeah, that definitely added this a bit of a stressor. But my main goal with my business when I started is like, "Man, I want to be able to put my wife through grad school so she can actually be fully present, not have to work on top of it, and I can provide for her through that". And thankfully have been able to do that. Andrew Hellmich: Well, I guess you managed to support you and your wife, pay the health care all through the wedding photography and the part time job. Charles Moll: Yep. Yeah. Andrew Hellmich: Awesome, amazing. Charles Moll: No, it was. I think it's one of those things, I still look back. I'm like, "How the heck did this even work?" But somehow, you know, she's got two months left to grad school, and it's like, "Holy cow". We're like, "We've almost done it. We've almost made it through this adventure". So, yeah, it's, it's been pretty exciting. Andrew Hellmich: That's so good, man. Congratulations! Charles Moll: Thanks. Andrew Hellmich: That is no mean feat. That is amazing. Tell me a little bit about Bozeman, like I just pulled up on Google that I can see, like the first thing I saw was snowy mountains, and so it looks like it gets very cold there in winter. Is it a big population? Is that where all your clients are coming from? Can you shoot all year round? Tell me a little bit about the area that you're servicing. Charles Moll: Bozeman is really interesting in that it's probably about 50,000 people. It's not a very like huge town in and of itself, but it's blown up since, I mean, it's been blown up for the past 15 years or more, but really since COVID and with the show Yellowstone, like Montana and Bozeman, has just become kind of this new destination, hot spot for folks. I started getting inquiries, and would talk to people and be like, "Oh, why'd you choose Montana?", they're like, "Well, we just love this show, Yellowstone". It's like, "Okay, that's not really even filmed in Bozeman, but I'll take it, like that's great". So it's really become a very luxury market very quickly. I mean, it's always been more high-end, but in really the past four years, the market has, there's been, like, a notable shift. I mean, I went to college in Bozeman, and when you know I was going to school, it's like you'd go downtown, and it was just a bunch of dirty ski bum cars, and now you go, and it's like BMWs, Teslas, and just a very huge demographic shift. I mean, I think the cost of the average home has honestly probably quadruple in the past few years. Like it's been insane, and I feel grateful to have been able to, like, get in and ride the wave, a little bit of the market changing, but Montana, as well, just being not that populous of a state, like I end up shooting the whole state, and not just the Bozeman area. So, you know, it's a big state. I drive a ton, but, yeah, I've been the furthest I've driven within the state so far. It's about six hours. So really photographed the whole state. Andrew Hellmich: And, yeah, right, okay, so when I said in the intro, and, you know, we were chatting via email before I learned that the fact that you had moved a couple of times and had to start from scratch. So, I mean, is it really starting from scratch, or is it, were you able to keep the website, keep all the SEO and everything still really worked. You just had to relocate your, and where you lived. Charles Moll: Yeah, it was a bit of both. It was, thankfully for the weddings, it didn't really matter so much where I lived. So I was able to keep my SEO. Bozeman was one of the better markets, so I really have left my website pretty much the same, which has helped to keep that growth just continuing. But it would be that thing of like, "Okay, I need to, like, build a whole new network of wedding vendors. I need to build a whole new network of other folks for", you know, having that diversification of income within photography, because I don't want to put all my eggs in the wedding basket as much as I love it. You know, they are big ticket items. It's like, you lose two or three weddings. It's like, shoot that's 10 to $20,000 depending on the wedding. So trying to find ways to diversify and really needing to always be networking when I get into those new communities, so it doesn't impact the wedding piece so much. For more my family photography and volume photography piece was always the starting over part. Andrew Hellmich: Got it, okay. And then when you say volume photography, is that school sports teams? What is that? Charles Moll: Yeah, primarily schools and sports teams, you know, anything from like a volleyball team to a whole school, just the generic head shots to doing, you know, like a whole sports league of, like, 300 kids. It's not really the most glamorous photography, but it's fun, and it's a good way to have that more consistent income, because, you know, photography is not something you can really always rely on. "Okay, I'm going to have this many clients for sure, for weddings a year". But with volume photography. It's like, once, you know, pick up a couple leagues, it was like, "All right, cool. Every year I'm going to have these folks on this general date", and can have a better idea of what each year's income will look like. Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. Yeah, you get a little bit more of that stability. Are you actually based in Bozeman now, or were you trying to rank for Bozeman while you were living outside of Bozeman? Charles Moll: Yeah, so I initially tried to rank for Bozeman when I was in Bozeman, got to page one of Google with that, and then we moved to Missoula. We lived there for a year and a half, and we didn't really know where we were going to end up long term. So I didn't want to mess too much with my SEO. I built some venue pages in more that Missoula market, which is about three hours away from Bozeman, started networking with the venues around there, but then we ended up moving to another town, Helena, recently, which is about an hour and a half from Bozeman. So kind of split the difference between Missoula and Bozeman. And it's allowed me to kind of keep both markets that I've been able to build in. So not as much a total restart, but a little bit of just that challenge of like, you move to a new town, you gotta start over with those connections, but still can access those old connections as well. Just have to drive, you know, a couple hours. Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I've got it, I'm getting a better picture now. So what happens then, when a couple from, say, Bozeman, or someone that's a couple that's going to Bozeman to get married, they obviously, they see your website. They love the photos. They can see that you're based in Bozeman. They call you to meet up, and then you say, "Hey, I'm an hour away. I don't live in Bozeman". Do you get any sort of negative pushback from those couples? Charles Moll: I really haven't. With my communication, I always just try to move it to a video call to keep it easy for people and just be like, "Hey, let's set up a video call". And honestly, probably 70% of my couples don't even live in the state, on their destination weddings coming to Montana, so it's pretty expected that it'll be a video call anyway, and then, even if they're local, a lot of folks don't want to worry about, "Oh no, we have to go meet with you. Set aside more time, the drive time and everything". People have been pretty excited about just doing video calls, and I've built all my collections so that travel and lodging is included, so it doesn't really even come up, where people ask "Where I'm based out of", and if they do, I'll tell them honestly, like, "Oh, I'm in Helena. And they go, "Cool, that's a great area", and that's about it, right? Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I love it. This is sounding like a really cool business, and it sounds like I wouldn't say you sort of stumbled into a great location, because you obviously you want to live there, but it sounds like the clients are coming to you almost automatically, because you've been able to rank your website so well for the area, and people are coming looking for photographers in Bozeman or in Montana. Is that the way it is? Charles Moll: The website has been huge for leads, and it's been awesome. I think what's cool too is people don't really know where in Montana they want to get married, and they don't really understand how big the state is. So people look at a Bozeman photographer for a town like Kalispell, which is six hours away, and in their mind, they're like, "Oh yeah, we'll just hire someone from Bozeman", if they like the work. But for whatever reason, like the size of Montana is really hard for folks to wrap their head around, because it's, it's a huge state, and, yeah, it's really cool. It's cool to be in a state that is getting more destination weddings and is slowly becoming, like this wedding hot spot a bit more. Andrew Hellmich: Perfect for you, perfect. All right, I want to ask more about the marketing and the business side of things in just a second, I can see on your website, and we were chatting before we started recording that. You know, on your About Page, you've got 'Charles,' and then in brackets, you've got 'CJ'. So you go by CJ with your friends, but you took the business decision to market yourself as 'Charles Moll'. Why did you do that? Charles Moll: Yeah, I did that, was pretty early on. I just thought 'Charles' sounded a bit more professional and wanting get more into the wedding space, I thought 'Charles' sounds more like a professional business where 'CJ 'sounds, I don't know, I thought of it sound more like a little kid or something. So I was like, "Oh, I'll go with Charles". But then I always run into the problem where I'll answer the phone, I'll be like, "Hey, this is CJ". And folks will be like, "Oh, is Charles available?", dang it. So I've just put that on my website, and have tried to get better at introducing myself as 'Charles'. I think I've almost gotten there, but that was a bit of a learning curve to, like, switch my name in my head, but yeah. Andrew Hellmich: If you're hanging out with your buddies, your family, do they all call you. 'CJ'? Charles Moll: Yeah, just about everyone does. My wife calls me 'Charles', a little bit. But outside of that, pretty much everyone calls me. CJ, Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So knowing what you know now, after being in business for seven years and marketing yourself as 'Charles', would you do the same thing again, or would you do anything differently? Charles Moll: I think I probably would leave it the same. Yeah, I think it, it does have a bit more professional of a sound to it. And I think also I like my logo and how that turned out. So I don't know if I would change it, just because I like my logo. Andrew Hellmich: I love that. Now that is someone that's attached to their logo. I love that. Yeah, and I agree. I think Charles sounds more upmark, it does. I mean, particularly if you're trying to attract that kind of client. Charles Moll: Yeah. And I think it's funny, because at the time, I wasn't, you know, I didn't know anything about the wedding industry, and I was just throwing spaghetti at a wall. And was like, "Yeah, that seems good". But you know, one of those happy accidents where I think it has allowed me to enter into some more professional spaces, and people feel very comfortable with me there and not feel like, "Oh, this is just some kid we've hired". Andrew Hellmich: With the business where it is now. How many couples, do you have a target revenue, a target number of clients? Like, what are you trying to achieve year on year? Charles Moll: My goal with weddings is 15 to 20 weddings a year. I'm not someone where I want to try and do a massive volume of weddings. Part of that's just with all the travel. I mean, last year, you know, spending every weekend driving three hours from Missoula to Bozeman, having to drive, you know, a day early to make sure I get there on time, if I had car issues or anything, I try to keep my number of weddings a bit lower so I can provide a better experience. 15 is like "I hit my wedding, like goals of where I'd like to be financially", and then if I hit 20, that's great. Obviously, I'd probably take more than 20 if people were asking for, like, a Tuesday in February, because not many people are wanting to book a wedding in February in Montana anyway. So just depends on the time of year, but really trying to keep my number of weddings less and just provide more of a high-end client experience to folks. Andrew Hellmich: What is your average couple spending on their wedding photography? Charles Moll: Last year, it was around, what would that be? Around 4400 and this year, I think we've moved it up to about 5400 so.. Andrew Hellmich: Oh, wow. Okay. Charles Moll: Yeah, really trying to push the market as hard as I can to raise my prices. I feel like my wife and I also have a joke that I'm constantly redoing my collections. I'm constantly tweaking my pricing, and it's really just trying to find, like, that sweet spot of like, you know, "What do I need to include to be able to book clients?", you know, "Where are the sticking points in my collections", and seeing, you know, "How can I hit those higher and higher numbers that I'd like to hit?". And even, like, looking at this year, I have a client who booked me. I think it would have been in probably last, gosh, that would have been like last February, and it was one of my highest bookings. And I think it was around like 7-7400 and then I have another client just booked me, and I think they paid the same thing, but there was way less included in the package, and just was able to tweak some things to make the pricing flow a bit easier in the conversations and be able to sell a bit higher of a wedding. Andrew Hellmich: Got it, all right. I'm gonna ask you a little bit more about that. Sounds like, are you sort of targeting $100,000 in turnover from weddings, and then anything above that's a bonus. And then you've got your volume and your portrait photography on top of that as cream. Is that how you look at it? Or is it a different way? Charles Moll: Yeah, I would say something like that. Yeah. Really, the main thing I'm thinking through is if I can book those number of clients, which I guess would be around 100k and then really trying to fill in the gaps with that extra volume photography and that sort of stuff. Because, you know, I have had couples call off the wedding. I think this year, I had two couples call off their weddings. And it's like, even though it's great to be able to charge more for a wedding, really losing those clients is starting to, I just feel it a bit more than I did, you know, when I was charging.. Andrew Hellmich: Sure, that hurts, absolutely. Charles Moll: Two grand a wedding. It was like, "Shoot". But now it's like, "Okay", you know, there does need to be that diversification, just for stability in the business. Andrew Hellmich: Totally get it. So do your couples, do they pay you a retainer, a deposit that's non-refundable once they do book? Charles Moll: Yep, yeah, I do $1,000 deposit to lock in their date, and then the full balance just being paid one month before the wedding. And that's worked pretty well. I'm a big saver, so, you know, we'll just kind of save through the year. Have a general idea at the end of like, 23 was able to see, like, "Okay, this is, you know, we have this amount in our bank account, we'll be pretty good through here, can budget based off of that,". Yeah. Andrew Hellmich: What happens when a couple calls up to cancel? Do you keep that $1,000, is that non-refundable? Can they use it for family photography? Or what do you do? Charles Moll: Yeah, generally, it's ends up just being non-refundable. And part of that is because a lot of the folks are out of state. If someone did want to use it for family photography, I would be super excited to let them do that. And then what I do say to folks is like, "If I am able to rebook your wedding date, I will be able to refund that". But it starts to get to this thing of like, you know, it's usually more last minute when folks cancel, and it's just pretty hard to rebook those dates. So.. Andrew Hellmich: Yeah Charles Moll: Yeah. Unfortunately, I hate that I have to, like, keep the deposit, but it's also one of those things, like, man, yeah, if so many folks canceled, you know, there's the marketing expense for each client. There's any work that I've put into prepping that's like, I don't know, just one of those things to keep things a bit more safe. Andrew Hellmich: Totally agree, it's business, isn't it? It's business. Charles Moll: Yeah, it's a bummer, but yeah. Andrew Hellmich: What did you do to tweak the prices that, you know allows you to, say, make more profit now or charge more, you know, like, I think you use an example earlier. You said you photographing this other couple. They're spending, paying, you know, $5,400 but they got less inclusions. What did you do there to tweak things? Charles Moll: There were two, like, big changes that I made. The first one was last year. I noticed that I was having this sticking point. I think my starting wedding was 3400 I think it was six hours of photography, and then the next one, I can't remember how many it included. I think it's probably like eight or so. But then my next collection up had two photographers, an engagement session, and it had more coverage. But what I was finding is that because so many couples were out of state, the engagement session was becoming the sticking point of folks not wanting to book that collection because it had the engagement session. So for them, it was like, "Well, I guess we don't need this because it has that session, we don't want to pay for that". And then they talk themselves out of the second photographer, they talk themselves out of the additional coverage. And they'd just be like, "Yeah, we'll go with this, this seems like everything we have". But as soon as I dropped that second or that engagement session from that collection, it really opened up that package for a lot more folks. I do a four package method, so I'm really trying to book that, you know, second one from the top. So getting rid of that engagement session really opened that up. Just because of how the market is here, not many folks were wanting that. And then the other big thing that was a game changer this year is I made the transition to doing full day unlimited coverage for folks, rather than doing hourly coverage. So still doing the four collections I have, like my base wedding, which is six hours of coverage. And that's what I'll tell people on the phone. And then on the phone, I'll be like "Most folks, they'll choose to go with a, you know, full day unlimited package. Those start at either 49 or 54 I can't remember which it is off the top of my head". And then when we get into those conversations, you know, one of the packages has an album, another one has the two photographers and a little bit better of an album. And then there's the top package, which is, you know, everything in the kitchen sink, multiple albums and all that sort of stuff. And going with that four full day unlimited collection has really been awesome. I thought it would have hurt me not having hourly marks in people not wanting to get those higher packages, but for whatever reason like, that has allowed me to really provide just a huge amount more value to my clients, and then be willing to invest in my higher tier collections, which really surprised me. Andrew Hellmich: That's cool. All right, so a couple of things, with the package that people were sort of steering clear of, because you had an engagement sheet, you didn't change the price, but you just took the engagement session out, and then more people were happy to book it. Is that the way it went?   Sign up to listen to the Premium Version   Andrew Hellmich: For sure. I agree with that 100%. Man, I've got one more thing I want to ask you about in regards to albums, before that, where is the best place for the listener to see more of your work? Where can they find you online? Where can they follow along with your journey? Charles Moll: Yeah, and you can see my website. It's CharlesMoll.com M-O-L-L, and then on Instagram is Charles.Mall_ photo. Andrew Hellmich: Got it. I'll have links to those in the show notes. So listener can easily find you there. In regards to albums, I mean, are they still popular these days with today's couples? And do you upsell additional pages after they've purchased a sort of an album that comes with a package? Charles Moll: Yeah, I would say albums have been a massive selling point for couples. I really have built it as part of my brand. It's what people see on the website, and if people work with me, usually they're excited about getting an album, and partially that's because I'll post about them on social media. I've really tried to have like, a really high quality album. I use Blacksmith albums, and they're just like, these really sweet albums. And then I do a design, and I mean over, not in person, but a video call design with each couple so, you know, if they have an album and it includes 20 pages, we'll hop on a zoom call. It'll take, you know, two to three hours for them to go through everything. And then we'll build the album in real time, and that's been a great way to upsell folks a little bit, because kind of my thought process was, you know, I've already spent the whatever it is to secure this client in advertising. Being able to add that album the additional pages is a great way just to expand that sale a little bit more. And what's worked really well for me there is immediately after the wedding, I'll let them know, like, you know I'm designing or I'm going through all your photos, and when the photos are about finished up, I'll give them a call and say, like, "Hey, your images are about ready. Would love to set up a time to design your album". We set that usually two weeks or so after they should get their images, we'll hop on a call. Sometimes they've picked all the photos for their album. I usually encourage them to or we'll pick them during the Zoom call. And I've found that people pick way more photos than will fit in any album. Even if I tell them, like, "Hey, this album is only going to have 50 to 60 photos", they'll pick 120 plus. And then you just, you know, we'll design it in real time. We'll go page by page, and folks end up adding, usually, at least 10 pages. In the past, what I did is I would add, they would have to buy each page additionally, but I've started doing clumps of pages during the sale, and that's worked better. Just like, "Hey, 10 pages is, I can't remember, let's say, $400 and then 20 pages is 700", so it's a little, you know, they save a little bit if they add more pages. And that's been huge. I feel like confident that my album process has finally worked through the kinks. And it's actually, you know, folks are adding more and more, and there aren't those sticking points of, like, "Man, you're telling me I have to add $50 per page?", being able to see like, oh, you know, 20 pages costs x, and they see that at the beginning of the call. So there's no surprises. They know what it is. They feel comfortable with it. But it never worked when it was like, "All right, time to fork over $50 a page", it was just like, "Oh shit. This is gonna be, this is gonna be like, $1,100 or whatever". Instead of just seeing like, "Oh, it's gonna be $1,100, cool", because then they can kind of put that in their mind, and they feel comfortable with it. Andrew Hellmich: Right. That's funny. It's the psychology of it, isn't it? Because, I mean, if I'm adding per page and seeing the dollars go up as certainly as a male, I'm thinking, "Oh my god, this is adding up real quickly". Whereas Linda, my wife, she'd be just looking at the photo, she wouldn't even be thinking about the price till the very end. But I'm looking at every page that gets added on. So yeah, the psychology of it, I can understand why that works. Charles, what software are you using to do your album designs in real time? And are you doing that over Google Meet as well? Charles Moll: Yeah, I am. I use Fundy. It works really great. If we pick the photos during the call, I'll just say, like, "Hey, we're going to take a five minute break". They have their like, auto design feature, and that usually gets us at least started with the design. I'll make a couple tweaks. We end up changing every page so much anyways, that folks are pretty happy with it, kind of what I'll do is, once I get that base design made, we'll just go through it page by page. The first time we go through it, we will only look at the images and just say, like, "Okay, do you see any images you want to keep on this page", we're not looking at design, and we'll cut out everything they don't want, and then we start going through and fine tuning the design. And I found like that to be the way to save the most time. And then usually once people finalize that design, it gets really hard for them to say no to that page, because they have that like, emotional attachment of like, "No, we worked so hard. We got rid of all these photos. We worked together to make this page perfect". Because when I first started doing albums, I would pre-design the whole thing and then be like, "All right, cut out the pages you don't want", and it never really resulted in a sale. But when we started doing it in real time, people had this affinity towards their images and towards their pages, and then when they get their albums, they're super excited to actually experience it tangibly. Andrew Hellmich: Unreal, and they're so invested, I can see that process would work. Well, how long does that normally take you for an album design like in general? Charles Moll: In that real time? I think the calls are usually two, two and a half hours or so. I think my longest was about four, but that was, it was, gosh, it was a massive outlet, 80 or 90 pages, and we selected the photos during the call. So, I mean, it's one of those, like, occasionally it'll be these super long calls, but I don't know. I found it better than going back and forth and approved for, you know, over 15-30 emails. It just it's like, "Nope, we're going to set aside this time. We're going to do it. I'm going to let you know on the front end that this takes a lot of time". And I think because it takes a lot of time, it actually kind of has helped to actually sell the albums, because that two hour markets, and most people are pretty over it, and they're like, "I don't want to have to deal with getting rid of more pages. We'll just get the album". And then they're excited. Andrew Hellmich: We'll just take it. Charles Moll: I mean, honestly, it's, it's an heirloom, like, I don't know, yeah, at the time, it might seem like this huge expense, but 10 years from now, like having that album and that tangible reminder their wedding is going to go way further than, like, all your digitals on some album, on some hard drive somewhere. Part of my pitch always is like, "Man, when I started photography and got a CD of images, and that was cool, and I don't even own a disc drive anymore, but you know, we still have books. We still have all that stuff". And people really buy into that, and they really want that tangible piece. And it's like you invest so much in your wedding photos to be taken. It's like that expense of the album really, I think makes a lot of sense, because otherwise you spent all this money to never really experience these photos. Andrew Hellmich: That's true. It's true, and it's also the only real record of the day, unless there's a videographer. But, yeah, the book's going to be around for generations, which is amazing, Charles. I love your process, and I love the way the business sounds. I love everything you've shared. You've been super generous. Thank you so much for coming on, for sharing everything you have. Congrats on your success and looking forward to following along and hearing about the future, great years ahead. Mate, thanks again. Charles Moll: Thanks so much for having me. It was a blast. And yeah, I really appreciate it. Scroll back to top Sign up to receive email updates Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast. powered by The post 614: Charles Moll – Winning Out-of-Town Wedding Photography Clients with Smart SEO appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.