In Black America

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents a 2019 conversation with Charles Whitaker, Dean of the Medill School of Journalism, Media, and Integrated Marketing Communications at Northwestern University, discussing the issue of diversity in the field of journalism. The post Charles Whitaker (Ep. 27, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. speaks with Charles Whitaker, Dean of the Medill School of Journalism, Media and Integrated Marketing Communications at Northwestern University, discussing his work at Medill and at Ebony Magazine, and the lack of diversity in newsroom management. The post Charles Whitaker (Ep. 27, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents a 2019 conversation with Dr. Robert F. Jefferson, Jr., Associate Professor of History at the University of New Mexico and author of Brothers in Valor: Battlefield Stories of the 89 African Americans Awarded The Medal of Honor. Intro music [00:00:08] The In Black America theme music, an instrumental by Kyle Turner. Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:00:22] Yes and no. For one thing, many of the World War two individuals and also families are very close knit. So what I had to do was basically introduce myself and then also talk about what the nature of my work was all about. And then I also had to relay my own family history. Like they would ask me this when I first met them and say, Where’s your family from? That was the first question from both of them. What was, you know. Where was my family from? And also, what did your what did your grandfather and what you felt? What is your father did that that was really the way to death, that we broke the ice on having any kind of conversation about the war altogether. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:01] Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. Associate professor of history at the University of New Mexico and author of Brothers Invalid Battlefield Stories of the 89 African-Americans awarded the Medal of Honor, published by Lyons Press since the Civil War. African American soldiers have been serving this country with distinction. Brothers in Valor is a history lesson on the 89 African American soldiers who were awarded the nation’s highest military award, the Congressional Medal of Honor. The history lesson cover those courageous servicemen from the Civil War to the Vietnam Theater. Jefferson paints a vivid picture of African American soldiers who carry the flag of freedom, but had to face the fight to be recognized as patriots, heroes and leaders. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, Brothers in Valor, Battlefield Stories of the 89 African-Americans awarded the Medal of Honor with Dr. Robert F. Jefferson, In Black America. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:02:04] Well, this book largely grew out of my first book because I had I had questions about how the public saw African American soldiers during the Second World War and also how did they perceive their conduct in the face of battle. For me, I really struggled trying to answer that question. And I also wanted to see if there were any kind of historical undercurrents to that question. So that led me to thinking about, okay, all of these men who have been recognized for these these acts of gallantry in the face of battle. And also, what did they think about notions like and also definitions of courage and things like that? Our community is very steep, but they, I think, is steep in applying conduct to basically write. And I think that that’s something that they carried forward from basically the Civil War even down through the present day that we live right now. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:02:59] Dr. Robert F Jefferson Jr has long been interested in African-Americans involvement with military service. His previous books focused on the relationship between African-American GIs and their communities during World War Two and Fighting for Hope, African-American Truth and the 93rd Infantry Division in World War Two and postwar America. In his latest book, Brothers in Valor, Jefferson presents the 89 African-Americans who were awarded the Medal of Honor. Consider this These African-American soldiers march forward when all odds were against them, both on the battlefield and off. They reshaped the very definition of courage under fire during some of the most harrowing moments in U.S. military history. The heroes Jefferson write about in his book face certain death with nerves of steel without flinching. In turn, their courage and determination left an indelible mark on the American landscape. Recently, In Black America, I spoke with Jefferson. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:04:01] Well, I was born in Darlington, South Carolina. My family moved from there to, uh, to to Norfolk, Virginia, where basically I, I grew up. I spent my formative years and went to school at the University of, uh. At the University of Michigan graduate school. But before that, I was I basically went to school at Elon College in North Carolina. So I’ve been I’ve been pretty much all over the place, I think. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:29] Any brothers and sisters? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:04:30] Yeah, I got. Oh, my gosh. I got. I got. I got two brothers and I got four sisters. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:38] So I guess at home growing up, it was never a dull moment. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:04:42] No, it wasn’t was. You can ask my mom about that too. Every time she walked in the door, it was always something. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:47] What were some of your favorite subjects while you were matriculating to high school? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:04:51] For me, my favorite subject was, uh, I. It was actually political science. I had a high school teacher who. He had a way of basically bringing, um, bringing government to life for us. And that’s what really got me interested in teaching, because he would come into the classroom and you didn’t know, you didn’t know what to what to be prepared for. He asked you to. Just bring your brain with you and that’s it. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:17] And what led you to major in history? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:05:21] Well, my father, um. He taught African history. Mm hmm. And in South Carolina, he was. He was actually a master school teacher in South Carolina. And, um, he he was also somebody who was who had a tendency to captivate students. He would take me to his classes when I was, you know, when I was growing up. And I sit in the back of the room and I’d watch I just watch how students basically hung on his every word as he was talking. I mean, for for a kid growing up, you know, you think your parents are good. What they’re doing is not really, um, it’s not really extraordinary. But as the years went by, I realized that he was doing something phenomenal in the classroom, and I wanted to. I wanted a piece of that. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:07] What led you to Wayne State University? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:06:10] Wayne State University. Um, i, i, i, I was actually hired there by someone. I was. I was recruited to go there by someone who actually was the subject of my first book, Fighting for Hope. African-American. Uh, true. So the 93rd Infantry Division in World War Two and, uh, and postwar America. Right. He he. I met him for the first time, and he said, you know what? We’re going to try to see if we can get you to come here. And at that time, when I was in graduate school, I thought he was just pulling my leg. But soon enough, like a couple of years later, he was he he came to me and said, you know what? We want you to come and do a job, too. So I did that. And, and that’s how my Wayne State, um, experience started. I mean, he was waiting was a great place to be, by the way. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:59] How long did you stay at Wayne State? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:07:01] I stayed there for three years. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:04] The reason I ask that question, because I’m from Detroit. So how did you like living in Detroit? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:07:08] Oh, it was. It was great. The one thing about Wayne State is that you get you get nontraditional students coming into your classes and the stories they told about, you know, what life was like in Detroit. I tell you, it was almost like a history lesson every time that I stepped into the classroom with them. And I learned I think they learned I learned just as much from them as they learned from me. I learned what cities like Detroit, what makes them tick. Mm hmm. And, um, it it just was a phenomenal experience. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:39] What led you to the University of New Mexico? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:07:41] Well, I came here as a result of, um, basically, uh, I applied for the job here as the director of the African Studies program. The thing is, I didn’t know anything about New Mexico. I didn’t know anything about. I didn’t know anything about the Southwest when I first got here. And, um, I found that I. I was learning on the fly as I got here. I mean, I just. For one thing, I fell in love with the Southwest. I love being here. And I also, like, um. I also like, uh, the University of New Mexico, because the student body here is quite unique. The things that I teach in the classroom, they have a, they have a way of taking the things that we talk about during our discussions. And then they go home and, and I see they’re having these discussions when they go home to and go to their dorms and then they come back and they have these really interesting collective questions about what life was like during the giving period and so forth. And then they also apply it to their own lived experiences. I think that’s that that in itself is really fascinating. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:44] Have you grown to appreciate the Indian culture that’s in New Mexico? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:08:48] Oh, yes, I have. My wife and I, every chance we get, we try to go and do these field trips around the state here to see this, to see the landscape, and then also to try to imagine what it was like to live here at the turn of the century. You know. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:03] Obviously, this book that you’ve written is not the first book on military. What initially sparked an interest in African-Americans in the military? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:09:12] Well, my grandfather served in World War Two, and he went when I was growing up. He used to tell me stories about what it was like to be in the segregated Army in the 1940s. And he the way he talked about it was he always it always came back to, I think, community and also family, because for him it was really important for him and he was one of the one of the first people to basically leave home and my family. So when he as he was talking about these things, I became fascinated in what military life meant for basically the collective home for African Americans as a whole. And that’s what led me to write in my first book. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:51] Was it difficult in and in researching this particular subject? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:09:56] Yes and no. For one thing, um, many of the World War two individuals and also families are very close knit. So what I had to do was basically introduce myself and then also talk about what the nature of my work was all about. And then I also had to relay my own sense. The history. Like they would ask me this when I first met them and say, Where’s your family from? That was the first question. All that from most of them. What was, you know, where was my family from? And also what did you what did your grandfather and what you felt what did your father do that that was really the way that that we broke the ice on having any kind of conversation about the war altogether. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:38] And the thing. If you’re just joining us, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. And you listening to In Black America from KUT Radio. And speaking of Dr. Robert Jefferson Jr., associate professor in the Department of History at the University of New Mexico and author of Brothers in Valor Battlefield Stories of the 89 African-Americans awarded the Medal of Honor. Dr. Jefferson, what led you to write this particular book? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:11:04] Well, this book largely grew out of my first book because I had questions about it. I had questions about how the public saw African-American soldiers during the Second World War and also how did they perceive their conduct in the face of battle. Mm hmm. For me, I really struggled trying to answer that question. And I also wanted to see if there were any kind of historical undercurrents to that question. So that led me to thinking about, okay, all of these men who have been recognized for these these acts of gallantry in the face of battle. And also, what did they think about notions like and also definitions of courage and things like that? Our community is very steep, but I think it’s steep in applying conduct to basically. Right. And I think that that’s something that they carried forward from basically the Civil War even down through the present day that we live right now. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:12:02] I found it interesting, which was the history lesson for myself, is that prior to it actually being named as we know it today, the Medal of Honor, it was called something else. Can you take us through that progression? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:12:15] Yeah, it was for many of those who didn’t. First of all, it did not get the I guess, the designation of the Medal of Honor until the Civil War. It was something that was you know, it was thought about during the American Revolutionary War. The Continental Congress, in fact, was trying to figure out ways in which to strike special medals for acts of gallantry, for basically their for their generals, people like George Washington and and and Horatio Gates and also Daniel Morgan and others. But then later on, they started thinking about, okay, what about the business of foot soldiers who basically stayed in the ranks? So they started. They looked. By the time the Mexican-American war rolled around, they started thinking about how could they basically acknowledge everyday soldiers for the things that they were doing and in the face of fierce fighting. So but about a civil war, the whole notion of what honor meant and what courage meant was then codified, I think. And Abraham Lincoln said that he wanted to do something else with that. So that’s how the Medal of Honor came into being. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:21] When you sat down to write this particular work, were there any particular avenues you definitely wanted to pursue? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:13:29] Oh, yes. I wanted to look at. For me, I wanted to understand the two periods the World War two period and the Vietnam War period. And the reason why is because it was personal for me. And I think, as I said before, my grandfather served in the Second World War, but I also had some uncles who served in the Vietnam War. And the stories they told were quite it was strikingly different from what my grandfather talked about. And I wanted to understand. So how did this these ideas about basically gallantry, courage, honor? How did they basically say how did they change over a 20 year period? I mean, the way my uncles talked about it, it was about it was about saving lives and it was about it. It was about basically being able to come home in one piece and have their brothers who were fighting next to them come home in one piece. For my grandfather, they were basically fighting for their own fight for something much more than that. So I wanted to understand that there’s a continuum there that that I think we we really ought to pay attention to when we start thinking about this. The African-Americans serving just serving in overseas operations. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:34] Tell us about the first recipient of the Medal of Honor. William H. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:14:39] Carney was somebody who fascinated me from the very beginning because he was somebody who was he was very outspoken about about the about the Civil War, what it was all about. He knew from the very beginning he and those who basically went in from the very beginning, they knew that they were fighting for much more than just fighting for much more than just themselves. They were fighting for their community. They were fighting for They were just basically fighting for freedom. And with that, they said if if they couldn’t be free and if they couldn’t secure their own freedom, then they could. Make a claim for anybody else to be free. So Carney and I, I make a I really make a point of this in that opening chapter based on the flag. It’s basically encompassing all of those things. And it conjures up all of those ideas that they had about being free. So then he is somebody who was very selfless. He was a, um, he was somebody who, uh, he was a he was an eloquent orator. I mean, he could talk about what these ideas meant for him. And he was also somebody who could convey that to the people who served next to him. He was a phenomenal figure. But if you remember, he does not basically be recognized and the first recipient until years later. And I think that tells us something about where the country was going at that time. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:07] For decades, you talk about you. We talked about for decades. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:16:10] That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. Um, and, you know, actually, I had a conversation with somebody here today and and we were talking about, okay, so we have these 89 individuals who are recognized for the acts of gallantry. We’re are the modern day heroes. And I said, you know what? This is a part of a historical trend that we’re living through. Um, and I think this happens when it comes down to thinking about what, um, what the meaning of, uh, of courage is and what gallantry means. I think the country constantly has to basically revisit that every time a person puts their lives on the line for something larger than themselves. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:49] I found it fascinating that these individuals went into war and they were not treated the same way as their white counterparts. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:17:00] They were not. They were actually fighting a war within a war. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:03] Exactly. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:17:04] They found that not only did they basically had to perform admirably in the face of, uh, in the face of fierce fighting, but they also had to fight those who basically saw them as being less than human beings who supposedly were supposed to be fighting alongside of them and is due to that two front war that they were fighting those battles, that they came back and they were able to come back. They came back with, I think, a in a large view, uh, of what basically democracy meant, what freedom and equality meant, and also access to opportunity. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:38] Meant and talked to us about Christian Fleetwood. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:17:41] Fleetwood, one of the one one of them, one of the most interesting individuals that I encountered in my research. He. Was somebody who, um, gave of himself very, uh, gave himself selflessly, uh, based on the field of battle. He wanted to be, um, he wanted to be, uh, you know, he wanted to be an officer. Um, he saw himself as a leader of men and. Time and time again when the country basically found itself, um, moving towards a, an emergency in which basically arms would be taken up, he would put himself forward as being somebody to volunteer for that fight, only to be discouraged. But at the end of the day, he found himself as basically being the cad ray for officers standing who would stand later on. And basically in the World War One Army, they would be the ones who would basically carry the flag forward for people, people like him. He’s one of the he’s one of the most fascinating people. But he’s also, I think, in that pantheon of heroes that I talk about at the end of the book, um, he, um, he served as a vivid example of what commitment to duty and uh, and also commitment to freedom means, I think. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:19:07] Talk to us about the National Convention of Colored Men. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:19:11] The National Convention of Colored Men. That is, if you think about when these men that that that. This organization came into being. It was during a time when, um, Black collectively were trying to, um, they, they were trying to establish themselves not only as basically as men, but also as leaders within their own community. This for them, I think, wow, it is so much about them, um, that we, that we, we really don’t know. Um, we, we need to know the communities from which they emerge. We also need to know, okay, what are the things that basically motivated them to do some of the things that they would do later? I thought I found this period to be one in which, uh, people were saying, You know what, we’re going to be recognized as We’re going to be recognized as respectable, upstanding individuals. And that organization epitomized that. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:15] All these stories were, I can say, fascinating, but I got stuck on William. Henry Thompson. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:20:23] Thompson. Somebody Who. Wow. All these people you’re mentioning, it basically brings back a flood of memories for me. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:33] I know it did. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:20:34] Um, yeah. Uh, is somebody. Announcer [00:20:40] Who. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:20:42] Want to describe him. He is. He’s somebody who is very, uh. I would say he’s very he’s very humble, but he’s also a part of this group that comes out of Paterson, New Jersey. Right. Who has their own ideas as to what. They have their own ideas as to what, uh, what freedom means. But at the turn of the century, um, when they were fighting, uh, in the Spanish-American War. They were flying. They were also basically carrying the flag, so to speak. But they were also there realizing that many of the things that they were fighting for were not going to be they were not going to be able to realize them once they returned home, if they returned home. Um, and it is funny about that group is that one of the things about them is that they are right there on the cusp of the Buffalo soldiers who were serving in, you know, in the West at that time. And many of them were basically trained by those former, um, Buffalo soldiers. Um, and I think they, they ended up basically be a deeply influenced by the way that they carried themselves both in uniform and out of uniform. But and I think that, you know, Tompkins epitomizes that. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:59] I think I asked this question prior to we have an interview last month. Were there any aha moments that. Occurred while you were researching and then, you know, you know, putting your thoughts on paper. Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:22:15] Well, for me, the thing that struck me the most was that, um, for the World War One guys, the Henry Johnsons. Mhm. Um, I was really surprised that they were not acknowledged, um, at the time and forgotten that he was not acknowledged, just basically being a, a medal of Honor recipient because of what he did. Now if you remember, that story just acts in the face of battle. Mhm. The legendary in fact um, his community and communities along the eastern seaboard would basically sing praises of what he did. Right. But it never reached basically the halls, It never reached the ears of policymakers until much later on and in fact, into the 21st century, where we actually see him being accorded the recognition that he deserved. So that was for me, that was like that was the moment for me, because I was like, you know, I heard stories about, you know, Needham Roberts and Henry Johnson. I heard them from grade school. Um, but just what happened to, you know, after the war and then also how that is, you know, the left, I think the legendary, um, uh, whispers of what he did, um, carried forward and how the process to which he was basically, uh, recognized. I thought that he, um, I thought he should have been recognized way before then. And in fact, I was kind of surprised that he wasn’t recognized before then. Then the other thing is, here’s one more thing, um, for Vernon Baker. Baker is somebody, um. Gosh, I read his memoir before I actually started doing research on what he did during the Second World War. And this is a this is a man. Who was very humble. He was. He’s very down to earth. He talked about his upbringing in a very frank and I think candid way. But what he did, um, basically in Italy. To me. It told me what everyday people could do when they’re basically faced with these moments of adversity. They will rise to the occasion. And Baker, I think, epitomize that. But, you know, at the end of it and what really struck me about him was that even when he was recognized by President Clinton, he still was thinking about his comrades who basically perished on that during the time he was fighting, he still remembered them. Um, and I think that basically resonates with all of them is that they they felt like they would not be who they were if. Yes. It’s not for those people that served alongside it, though. Right. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:12] Right. Why was it important for you? You you wrote the narratives of their stories in the beginning of the book. At the back of the book, you have a synopsis of all the 89 recipient. Why was that important to include that also? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:25:28] Well, the reason why I wanted to do that is because I only talked about, um, those who, um. I only talk about those whom I think whose actions basically fit the framework of which in which I was writing. But I also wanted to make sure that, listen, we don’t we don’t forget all 89 of these individuals, because what they did was, was, uh, remarkable in itself. It was phenomenal. Um, I also wanted to make sure that I kept them together as a composite group. Um, if we, if we acknowledge, if we acknowledge some and, and fail to acknowledge the others, then we’re committing the same. We basically, I think we committing the same mistake that they had done previously that the military had done previously in, um, acknowledging their actions. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:22] Dr. Jefferson, what do you want readers to come away with? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:26:25] Well, from this book, after reading it, I want them to understand that individuals are motivated by much more than basically, um, I guess, notions of visibility, uh, publicity and so forth. But what moves the most? I think what moves them mostly is the strength of character. And also the courage of conviction. Um, if we acknowledge that and we acknowledge that by reading their stories that we, I think we acknowledge the best parts of ourselves. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:58] Well understand. Any final comment, Dr. Jefferson? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:27:01] And any comments? John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:03] Any final comments? Dr. Robert F. Jefferson Jr. [00:27:04] Yeah, absolutely. Um, I want to thank you for having me on on your program today. And I want everyone, uh, if you get a chance to read this, too, you take a step back and to reflect on what it means basically to be, um, but basically to be and to be, uh, in the society that we are in right now. And then also what’s going to be required for us basically going forward in the future. That’s what I want to impart to everyone who’s listening to this program. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:36] Dr. Robert Jefferson Jr., Associate Professor of History at the University of New Mexico and author of Brothers in Valor Battlefield Stories of the 89 African-Americans awarded the Medal of Honor. If you have questions, comments or suggestions as to the future In Black America programs, email us at In Black America at KUT dot org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing In Black America. CDS KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keeton St. Austin, Texas 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio. The post Dr. Robert F. Jefferson, Jr. (Ep. 26, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host presents a conversation from 2019 with Dr. Albert D. Chester, owner of New Town Pharmacy and founder and director of Capstone Institute, both located in Jacksonville, Florida. The discussion covers health care worker training, and meeting the health care needs of an underserved population.                 The post Dr. Albert D. Chester (Ep. 25, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on  In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr.  presents a conversation with Selena Sage, inspirational speaker, owner of ZenTao Books publishing, and author of Get Free: 7 Simple Steps to Free Your Mind and Live Your Dreams. The post Selena Sage (Ep. 24, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents a tribute to his old “marble-shooting’ buddy”, the late Ron Banks. He was a founding member of the legendary soul and R&B vocal group from Detroit, The Dramatics. Ron Banks passed away in 2010. The post A Tribute to Ron Banks (Ep. 23, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents a 2019 conversation with Corey Minor Smith, attorney, singer, transformational speaker, , and author of #Driven. She was previously an At Large member of the Canton, Ohio City Council, the first African American elected to a city-wide position in Canton. Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. Corey Minor Smith [00:00:22] Where there’s actually three distinct events that I recall. One at the age of 15, having to have the court decide my life. And that was in regards to where I was going to live. And at that point that morning, I woke up wanting so badly to go into the courtroom and seeing that person in a black robe, seeing the people in the suits and understanding and knowing what their jobs were. Unfortunately, we were never called into the courtroom. My whole life was decided without us even being in there. So I didn’t learn that day. But then in high school, I was assigned to the local municipal court for a summer job program, and then I was able to work directly with the people in the black robes, i.e. the judges, as well as work with those individuals that were in the suits i.e. the attorneys. And I knew then that I wanted to be a lawyer. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:11] Corey Minor Smith, attorney, from Canton, Ohio. City Councilman at large member, Transformational speaker, author of #Driven. See Smith today is the one and she has achieved what she has to this point. As a child growing up, she lived an eight different households. She had two unstable parents, one diagnosed with manic depression/schizophrenia, the other a drug dealer. She attended 14 schools, two preschools, eight elementary schools, three middle junior high schools and two high schools, all between three different states. And she was sexually abused at the hands of a stepmother’s father. Had it not been for a speech given by pro football Hall of Famer Shannon Sharpe at his induction, one can only imagine how Minor Smith’s life would have turned out. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, Growing Up with Mental Illness in the Family with Corey Minor Smith In Black America. Corey Minor Smith [00:02:16] All that I could describe it as is weird, right? I didn’t know what was going on. I just heard my mom talking about, you know, small cameras being in the hole in the wall. You know, it could be like a hole from a nail. But she believed that someone put a camera or a recording device in it, that there were recording devices in the cars. And when we went to church, you know, the pastors or guest pastors were talking about things that she did in her apartment. And so it was very hard for me to understand or comprehend or even just relate to what she was saying. And that is why I sought out movies like Out of Darkness that came out when I was in college, because I was basically trying to find out how other families dealt with having a loved one with mental illness because I did not know what to do. It was years later with my family and I, you know, kind of joined forces to be advocates and to be there for my mom. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:14] Corey Minor Smith’s mother had problems. Neither she nor her mother understood. At 13, her mother was diagnosed with manic depression and schizophrenia. When she was 15, her mother attacked her with a pair of scissors. To make matters worse, both her parents experienced demons so severe that led them down the path to drugs. Many African-Americans had trouble recognizing the signs and symptoms of a mental health problem, leading to underestimating the effects and impact of mental illness. Some may think of depression as the blues or something to snap out of. That’s why it’s important to seek professional help when you suspect something is wrong. As a child, Minor Smith didn’t know what to do, and it was not until she became an adult that she really was able to help her mother. Corey Minor Smith [00:04:03] I was born in Canton, Ohio. I’ve also lived in Houston, Texas, and South Vallejo, California, and currently I am back in Canton, Ohio. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:14] And tell us about the many high schools that that you attended. Corey Minor Smith [00:04:20] Wow. Is really a the many schools that I attended was a over 1414 that I remember. And as far as high schools, it was a total of two, but that’s among the three states. So it was a total of 14 schools, eight households and three different states of which my life has been lived. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:41] We’re going to get into some of the book before we start speaking to your passion of mental health. What lessons thus far or lessons you learned living in two different household and two different locales? Corey Minor Smith [00:04:58] Well, it’s eight different households, and what I learned that was important is just understanding the rules of wherever you are and being able to adapt to whatever environment that you’re in. And I say that because I not only live with my parents. And grandmothers, but also cousins and people who were not related to me at all. And it was not through the foster care system, but I call it community care, because there were people who took me in that did not have to. They were under no type of court order or direction of job and family services. They did not receive any type of assistance for me. So I do truly thank God for those who took me in when they did not have to do so. So that’s a main lesson, being adaptable, being able to relate to where you are, understand the rules and obligations and your responsibility in whatever aspect of your life, whether it’s the classroom, your work office, the boardroom. You have to understand the dynamics of that particular place and be able to adapt. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:01] Having such young parents, did you understand what was going on? Corey Minor Smith [00:06:07] No. I do recall in preschool that a lot of my classmates were amazed that my parents were so much younger than their parents. And so that’s where it kind of opened my eyes to it. You know, at such a young age in preschool, I don’t even know why we were talking about our parents ages. But I knew then that I had young parents just because my classmates talked about it. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:29] In the book, you talk about thinking and becoming a lawyer. Tell us that story. Corey Minor Smith [00:06:37] Well, there’s actually three distinct events that I recall. One, at the age of 15, having to have the court decide my life. And that was in regards to where I was going to live. And at that point that morning, I woke up wanting so badly to go into the courtroom and seeing that person in the black robe, seeing the people in the suits and understanding and knowing what their jobs were. Unfortunately, we were never called into the courtroom. My whole life was decided without us even being in there. So I didn’t learn that day. But then in high school, I was assigned to the local municipal court for a summer job program. And then I was able to work directly with the people in the black robes, i.e. the judges, as well as work with those individuals that were in the suit, i.e., the attorneys. And I knew then that I wanted to be a lawyer. So that’s the second incident or event. The third is an encounter with law enforcement. I remember being pulled over and I felt so degraded in the way that one of the officers talked to me. And I felt like at that very moment, I wanted to know what my rights were. And I wanted to go to law school, learn what rights are, and to come back and tell everybody what their rights are in case they’re ever confronted in the way that I was confronted. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:59] How did you happen to attend Bowling Green for undergrad? Corey Minor Smith [00:08:02] Bowling Green State University, quite honestly, because it was just far enough away, but just close enough to home to help me to develop my independence in my life. And I really, really enjoyed my time at Bowling Green State University. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:17] Tell us about being torn between your two parents. I mean, you stay with your dad and also you stay with your mom. But I think dad was the fun guy. Corey Minor Smith [00:08:27] Well, I wouldn’t necessarily. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:28] Say he was a fun. Corey Minor Smith [00:08:30] Guy. It was more so because it provided the image of a nuclear family in that he had a wife and she had a child and I could see a family that I wanted. So I knew at nine when I went to live with my dad the first time that I wanted a family like that versus when I was with my mother, you know, she was a single mother working two jobs with hardly home. I was a latchkey kid and home a lot, you know, by myself. So I just preferred the family atmosphere and chose to live in California whenever I could. But ultimately, that’s where a lot of the negative behavior that I engaged in took place. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:12] How did television influence what you thought family life should be like? Corey Minor Smith [00:09:17] Well, again, looking at that nuclear family, a lot of what we see is on television. And for me, it was Leave It to Beaver and Gidget. And although Gidget was in the single family, single parent household. It just showed me like, I don’t know, morals, standards, rules of society. And I just embraced it and tried to follow it. And, you know, until I met the real world, i.e., in South L.A., California, there was a whole different dynamic that I was involved in on a day to day basis. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:50] How did you get to used to how did you end up in Houston for a while? Corey Minor Smith [00:09:55] Well, my mother relocated to Houston in search of better job opportunities. She had some friends that had moved down there and they had encouraged her to come along as well. So when she decided to move to Houston, I that was the first time I went to live with my father. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:11] If you’re just joining us, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and you’re listening to In Black America from KUT Radio. We’re speaking with Corey Minor Smith, author, attorney, singer and transformational speaker. Miss Smith, tell us about writing this book, #Driven. Corey Minor Smith [00:10:28] #Driven took several years, at least ten I knew at the age of 16, i.e once I went through the court system that I was going to write a book. So it started in me then. And as I continue to grow, develop, learn and experience different things, I just continued to write things down. But unfortunately I didn’t do it to the point of making it a book. And I say that because one of the principles that I discuss in the book is preparation. And I remember the first time I met Les Brown, who ultimately wrote the foreword to the book. He made a statement after reading an article about me in our paper, our local newspaper, and he said that I had a story for the world to hear. And that’s the statement on the back of the book. So one day long after he had made this statement, several years afterwards, I contacted him to see if I could use it on my marketing material. And he said, I’ll do better than that. I’ll write the foreword to your book if you want me to. I was so grateful, but at the same time I didn’t have a book. He wanted me to send the first three chapters and I had nothing written. And so it taught me then that you have to be prepared for what you’re asking people to help you with, right? If I wanted him to help me, he was willing to do way more than I asked, but I wasn’t even prepared to receive it. So I say that ultimately to say once you set a goal, you have to take action to reach that goal. And especially if you’re asking other people to come along and help you with reaching your goals. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:58] One of your major passions is mental health. Why is that so endearing to you? Corey Minor Smith [00:12:03] It’s endearing to me because I am a child that has a parent, my mother, who is living with severe mental illness, and it attributed to a lot of the experiences that I had that I outlined in my book. But I think it’s important, particularly in the Black community, because we don’t like to talk about it. There’s a lot of negative stigma associated with mental illness. There is a resistance to therapy or, you know, psychiatric treatment. But it’s important if they are resources here in the community to help us and those who are into the church. And I believe that the church should be a resource as well. You know, it doesn’t minimize or negate our Christianity because we rely on outside sources outside of the church or prayer. I strongly encourage people to do it in addition to the church and prayer and to help minimize the stigma associated with having mental illness or having a loved one that’s living with mental illness. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:06] Have you been able to put your finger on why is so difficult for us as a people, African-Americans, to actually articulate mental illness in our families? Corey Minor Smith [00:13:19] I think is just something that we are highly aware of but don’t want to talk about. And you can see it just in pop culture. There’s a several movies that have come out over the years, like Out of Darkness that featured or starred Diana Ross. Yes. In the most recent movie that Denzel directed Fences from the Plays by August Wilson, the brother had mental illness. The soloist that starred Jamie Foxx, he portrayed Nathaniel Ayers, who exhibited found a mental illness when he was at the school at Juilliard. The secret she kept that starred Kyla Pratt and it was featured on TV one. But she portrayed a lawyer who then became an elected official who started showing signs of mental illness during her legal career. And then in Soul Food, the HBO Uncle Pete is that family member that a lot of people have. He was the one who stayed in his room. Nobody really communicated with Uncle Pete you so and we all have a person like that in our lives, if not in our own household. And also another one. It really portrayed a serious mental illness with Frankie and Alice with Halle Berry. Right. And these are real situations and we know that they’re there. I advocate for us to talk about it, to understand it. There are resources available and for us to actually use the resources that are available. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:42] When you talk about mental illness, you also talk about some celebrities that have openly expressed their problems with mental illness. Corey Minor Smith [00:14:53] Yes. Yes. I think that helps in our society for some reason. You know, we we really look up to celebrities. We put them on some type of pedestal. And once they announce that there’s some real aspect to their life, something that we relate to, we’re able to better accept that particular issue. And I have found. And in regards to mental illness such as Keyon Dooling, a former NBA player, he recently talked about his duties and being in a mental health institution when he had a mental breakdown based on something that triggered him that he didn’t know he suppressed. Kevin Love, another NBA player, openly talks about his dealings with anxiety. Catherine Zeta Jones, popular actress living with bipolar Prince Harry. He talks about his depression after his mother’s death. There’s just a number of individuals, even Jenifer Lewis, famous Black actress, most recently on Black-Ish. She talks about her living with bipolar and depression for over 20 years. So this is a real thing. There are real resources, and we should not be ashamed in having it as a part of our lives, whether we are dealing with it ourselves or we have a loved one living with mental illness. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:11] According to what you’ve written in the book, your mom began experiencing one expression that they are spying on us, listening to us. At that time, being such at a young age, what did you think was going on? Corey Minor Smith [00:16:28] All that I could describe it as is weird, right? I didn’t know what was going on. I just heard my mom talking about, you know, small cameras being in a hole in the wall. It could be like a hole from a nail. But she believed that someone put a camera or a recording device in it, that there were recording devices in the cars. And when we went to church, you know, the pastors or I guess pastors were talking about things that she did in her apartment. And so it was very hard for me to understand or comprehend or even just relate to what she was saying. And that is why I sought out movies like Out of Darkness that came out when I was in college, because I was basically trying to find out how other families dealt with having a loved one with mental illness because I did not know what to do. It was years later with my family and I, you know, kind of joined forces to be advocates and to be there for my mom that I was able to have a stronger understanding of what she was going through. I also my master’s degree is in education, guidance and counseling. And I went into that master’s program because I wanted to learn more about my mother’s illness through that program. We study with the DSM four. The DSM five is out now, but at that time it was DSM four. And since my master’s degree, I’ve continued to work with organizations like NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, and different services and programs that they have available for families who have a mentally ill loved one. So I just try to educate myself. I encourage others who have a family member living with mental illness to educate themselves and to work with their loved ones treatment team, to know who those individuals are, to know who the local agencies are, the law enforcement individuals who have specialized units that assist those who might have a psychotic breakdown and instead of taking them to jail, know to take them to the emergency room for a mental health assessment. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:36] You are somewhat lucky in as with your profile in the city, people knew you and with your job being a liaison with the police department and EMS somewhat alerted you when your mom or your mom was acting out. Corey Minor Smith [00:18:53] Yes. And quite honestly, as throughout the county, the one thing that I did after my last election was write an article about my experiences, because at the time I was campaigning and it was a very significant win ultimately. But no one knew what was going on behind the scenes. Right. And namely with my mother. So literally one morning when I was driving to court, I received a phone call from an employee in another jurisdiction, another part of our county, who knew me and contacted me to let me know. They found my mother in a vacant house with no utilities. That information I didn’t even know how to process. I did not know how to process it at the time. I’m on my way to court. I couldn’t go to help her at that time, but I thank God that there were people who knew to contact me. Then I am able to contact members of her treatment team and my family who can do the things I can’t do, i.e. go to where she is right now because I was on my way to court. So working together with others has been very helpful. Having people know to contact me has been very helpful and I just strongly encourage family members and friends that have a level of mental illness to make those connections in a community, to let people know who you are and that you are there to help your loved one have. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:14] Is system change, Inez, because you’re you’re talking about in the book being pink slipped, but you have you voluntarily commit yourself and your mom wasn’t going for it. Corey Minor Smith [00:20:26] She absolutely does not go for it. I mean, even to today, you know, there was one time there was one time and I mentioned in the book that she willingly went. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:35] Right. Corey Minor Smith [00:20:36] To the hospital. But, yeah, the involuntary commitment process, there’s a very high standard to meet in order to involuntary commit someone into a mental institution. So at this point, we have gone through the process, through the probate court, to have a guardian ad litem assigned. And that’s something my family and I have not done before. And after 30 years of trying to do it ourselves, if you will, we are relying on the assistance of the resources that are available in the community. So I’m basically, you know, walking the talk. You know, the things I’m encouraging other people to do, I’m doing as well and seeing the benefit of doing that. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:16] When resources are available. Those that have family members or loved ones with a mild illness. Corey Minor Smith [00:21:25] Well, I strongly encourage the National Alliance on Mental Illness as a number one resource, and it’s my number one resource because it is a national organization and individuals can get additional information about NAMI by going to nami.org calling 1-800-950 NAMI, N-A-M-I, which is 6264. So that’s 1-800-950-6264. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:57] Besides your mom having a mental illness, she also develop a drug problem. How did that exacerbate your mindset and the problems? Corey Minor Smith [00:22:08] Oh my goodness. That was seriously a very bad time in our lives. And it is a common situation for individuals that are living with mental illness. Many times, individuals seek to self-medicate, whatever that may be, with drinking, with illicit drugs, whatever it may be. And so with my mother again, I had individuals in the community that were contact me, and I thank God for them. So while it wasn’t, you know, official organizational employees, there were individuals that knew my family, knew me personally, knew my mom personally, and they contacted me to get my mom off the street or to advise me as to where she was. And, you know, if I or my family could come and get her and we would in any situation, we would I’ve put myself in danger. And I’m not encouraging anybody to do that. But I have put myself in danger of being out on the street late at night, getting my mom off the street. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:09] Talk to us about the time that you feared for your life when your mother was at your grandmother’s house and your mother tried to harm you, basically. Corey Minor Smith [00:23:21] Yes. There were a number of nights that I did not sleep for fear of my mom doing something to me because she would be up all throughout the night talking to herself. And I didn’t understand what she was talking about. And she was not talking to me or expecting a response from me. So over time I built up fear and just not knowing what would happen to me if I went to sleep. And once I moved to Canton, my mom actually left me in Houston, Texas, at one point, and she moved back to Canton. And ultimately I ended up back here as well. But she would say different things to me, you know, just casual conversation. I would say with air quotes, But in regards to me not living anymore, she would talk about how she didn’t deserve me. But ultimately it was that I should not live anymore. And one day my worst fear came true in that she, out of nowhere, unexpectedly, just attacked me. And it took my grandmother, my uncle and my cousin, all very large people in size and stature to get her off. She had unbelievable strength and she had a pair of sheers. And I just again, thank God that she was not able to penetrate my skin, you know, with the with the sheers because my family was able to get to her in time. But the pain of the way she had me grasped by my hair and tossing me around was excruciating, to say the least. But ultimately, big picture, I thank God that I was not severely injured. But that incident is what led to me having to go to court and ultimately having the court to decide my life in regards to where I was going to live from there. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:19] You talk about in the book the mental stress of of not articulating I love you. Have you got beyond blaming yourself to the point that it really is not your fault? Corey Minor Smith [00:25:33] Yes. And that took effort on my part. You know, me minimizing the stigma associated with me going to counseling. Right. When I first was attacked, the school system, the court had me go to counseling and I didn’t like it. I didn’t want to attach with my feelings. I didn’t want to feel or acknowledge anything that had happened at that point. So I stopped going. I went to like three sessions. But later in life, I understood and learned the value of having that service available and participating and engaging in it. And through that, learning to deal with my feelings, learning to understand my experiences and using them to help others who may go through the same thing. So, yes, I did not articulate the phrase I love you or associate with the feelings of I love you. And it wasn’t until I had my first child, my first son, and definitely by the time I had my second son that I feel like I absolutely knew what love is and felt it with becoming a mother. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:37] You have divided the book into faith, motivation, determination, preparation and action. Corey Minor Smith [00:26:44] Yes. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:45] Why those particular designations? [00:26:48] Well those five principles are things that I essentially live by. And I’ve developed those five principles just from the experiences that I’ve had that I talk about in the book, namely faith being first. Because while my parents have lived these untraditional lifestyles, one thing that they did instilled in me is church and faith. So while my father may not have gone to church, he did require us to go to church. And that is something that is instilled in me even as an adult. Like if I didn’t go to church, I wasn’t allowed to go anywhere else that Sunday, you know, no going out to play any of that stuff. So even as an adult, if I didn’t go to church, I wouldn’t go anywhere else, whether it was the store or whatever, because I didn’t go to church. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:36] Corey Minor Smith, attorney, former Canton, Ohio, city councilor at large member, transformational speaker and author of #Driven. If you have questions, comments or suggestions, ask Your Future In Black America programs. Email us at In Black America at kut.org. Also let us know what radio station you heard us over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program, are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. Until we have the opportunity again for our production intern Tianna Woodard and Chelsea Jenkins and technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing to In Black America CD’s, KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keeton St, Austin, TX 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio. The post Corey Minor Smith (Ep. 22, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson speaks with actor, film director/producer and writer Robert Townsend about his challenges and successes over three decades in the entertainment industry, including the groundbreaking film Hollywood Shuffle, the Making The Five Heartbeats documentary, and new television project American Soul. Intro Music [00:00:08] The In Black America theme music, an instrumental by Kyle Turner. Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin. KUT Radio, this is In Black America. Robert Townsend [00:00:23] Well, you know, here’s the thing. I just gravitate to what I want to create. And sometimes people will send me a script or there’s an idea that I have. So when I think in terms of the Five Heartbeats, for example, I wanted to do a movie about five guys, total different guys, and how they become a family making music. And so that’s how that came about. Meteor Man I wanted to, you know, be the first African-American superhero, and I wanted it to be funny and I wanted to make it for kids. So Holiday Hard, which is a film that I directed, I think, you know, it’s a theme, you know, of nontraditional family. But I think any time, you know, I create stuff, even the parenthood that I just really wanted to help raise a generation of kids because I know they’re going to be sitting in front of the TV. So how do I give them, you know, basic lessons on morals and values? And that’s why I created that show. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:23] Robert Townsend, comedian, actor, film director, producer, writer and former cable network programing CEO. He has been referred to as the godfather of the independent film world with more than three decades in the entertainment industry. Many of us remember the memorable work he has produced. He is the genius behind Hollywood Shuffle, The Meteor Man and the Five Heartbeats. Townsend also created award winning programing for television. This include Partners in Crime for HBO, Townsend Television, for Fox Television and the WB network series The Parenthood. His most recent project for television is directing American Soul The Untold Story of Soul Train and the Man Behind Its Legacy, Don Cornelius. Townsend’s documentary, Making the Five Heartbeats was a nominee for outstanding documentary at the 50th NAACP Image Award. I’m John L. Hanson, Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, the legendary Robert Townsend. In Black America. Robert Townsend [00:02:31] I would say it has changed. You know, I mean, there’s a lot more images of people of color. There’s a lot of new voices that have emerged. So, you know, when I started, it was just basically me and Spike. And then, you know, Kenan started to make, you know, movies. And then John Singleton appeared. So, you know, now there’s a whole new crop of filmmakers that are, you know, aggressive and taking chances. And so it is a different Hollywood now. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:01] As a child growing up on Chicago’s West Side, Hollywood icon Robert Townsend has always been fascinated with the entertainment industry. Raised by a single mother with four siblings on welfare, he spent much of the afternoon time watching television. He began to practice acting out scenes and imitating famous characters. His first film break came as an extra in Cooley High. From there, he landed a role costarring opposite Denzel Washington in A Soldier’s Story, finding work for African-American actors hard to come by. He decided to step out on his own as an independent filmmaker. He wrote, directed, produced and starred in Hollywood Shuffle. The film was a satire depicting the trials and tribulations of African American actors in Tinseltown. The success of the movie made Hollywood take notice, and Thompson was on his way to bigger projects. Eddie Murphy was so impressed with Hollywood Shuffle, he asked him to direct Eddie Murphy Raw. Townsend has been the genius behind many of Hollywood’s favorite and best remembered hit series and movies. Recently, In Black America had an opportunity for the exclusive interview with Robert Townsend. Robert Townsend [00:04:16] I grew up this man. It was rough. You know, I lived in Cape Town. Um, and it was, you know, gangs on every corner. And, you know, I had to I couldn’t play outside because my mother was afraid that I was going to get recruited by one of the gangs. And so, um, you know, it was a rough time, but it was through that that I learned about theater and television and movies because I was just a little kid. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:42] What were some of the TV shows that you frequently watch while you were destined for the house? Robert Townsend [00:04:49] Uh, uh, I watched everything, you know, and as a kid, I watched everything. I mean, so you, you can. Hitchcock. Alfred Hitchcock. I watched The Guns of Wilson. It, uh, I love Lucy. Um, you name a TV show…Lassie. I watched everything. You know, I even watch, uh, PBS. I watched opera, French movies. I was the strange little kid, but I loved it all. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:13] So what was life like growing up in the house where you had three other siblings? Robert Townsend [00:05:19] Yeah, I, um. I am the second oldest. Uh, there’s my sister. My sister Beverly is the oldest, And then my brother Steve is under me, and then my sister. And. And so, you know, we lived in a little small house, you know, apartment, and, uh, you know, it was my mother. My mother had remarried then and my stepfather, Roosevelt, And basically the bathroom was my room. And so in the bathroom is where I, I would, you know, go into my fantasy world creating my characters and the. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:50] Good acoustics in there. Robert Townsend [00:05:52] Exactly. So that’s kind of where it started for me doing, um, you know, doing impressions and characters and stuff when I was, when I was like nine, nine, ten. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:02] What was it about that Shakespearean play when you were in high school that, that gave you the impetus that maybe this is something I want to do for a living? Robert Townsend [00:06:12] Well, what it was was that it was really in grammar school. I was in fifth grade and there was a teacher, his name was James Reed, and he wanted kids in the hood to learn about Shakespeare. And so he had us read like three pages of, um, you know, a scene from Shakespeare. And I just remember it was really, really hard. And, you know, this is how I really started because, uh, you know, I was a kid in the hood, and so I wanted to get an A on the paper and, you know, just to read it. And, you know, it was, it looked so hard to me. So I went to the library and I stole all the Shakespeare records cause I’m a little, little kid. And I go, I’m going to listen to them and see if I can understand it better. And when I listen to them on our stereo, you know, in the house, uh, I kind of understood it. And so when we had to read, you know, a scene from Oedipus Rex in class. Mm, uh, I could really, you know, do it like the Royal Shakespeare Company. And so as I read the scene, the class went crazy, but the teacher was like, you have a gift. And that’s when it started for me. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:21] When did you develop your standup comedy? Robert Townsend [00:07:24] You know what? Uh, I always was a fan of, you know. Meetings that I saw on The Ed Sullivan Show. And because, you know, I like making people laugh. And I’ve always, you know, thought really silly and funny. I don’t know. I don’t know when the very first time there was a club in Chicago called Punch Canellos and Punch in Laws was in downtown Chicago. And, uh, I remember that was the first time I performed stand up. And I had a routine where I would, you know, turn around in a circle and I would do these different characters. And I called it, you know, something like I of Bill, you know, change the channel, and then I could do all these different voices. And that was my first routine. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:07] What gave you the courage to move to New York? Robert Townsend [00:08:11] Well, it wasn’t so much the courage. There was a teacher. I was going to school at Illinois State University in Normal Bloomington, and I was there and I was a freshman. And I was fascinated with theater in New York. And there was a teacher that was there from New York. And I would ask about, you know, New York. And I was like, how do the actors what is Broadway like? How do they act? And she said, Stop asking me about New York, because you don’t have what it takes to make it in New York. You don’t have what it takes to make it in this business. And she shut me down and I I’d call my mother because it was devastating to me. And I called my mother and I said, you know what? I am going to transfer to New York to a school in New York. I got to see if I’m going if I can make it, if I can do what’s in my heart. And, uh, I transferred there was a student exchange program, and I transferred to a college. I couldn’t get into New York, but I got to college 20 minutes from New York. William Paterson College in Paterson, New Jersey. And I transferred. And that’s how I got to New York because of that teacher. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:19] And what did you major in? Robert Townsend [00:09:22] Theater. I mean, mass communications and theater. So I did it all, you know, I was a theater minor and radio and TV communications was my major. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:32] And how long did you stay in New York before you decided to move where you are now in Los Angeles? Robert Townsend [00:09:37] Well, I lived in New York for about six, seven years. And, uh, I was, uh, doing stand up. I had met a young comedian online, you know, uh, uh, I a lining up to get, you know, to an audition for the Improv. And that was Keenen Ivory Wayans. Mm hmm. And so Keenan and I, you know, were the only brothers on on standing outside waiting to audition, and we became like, you know, really good friends. And Keenan moved to L.A. first. Keenan moved to L.A. first, and then after Keenan moved to L.A., then that’s when I, you know, uh, Keenan said, Hey, Rob, I’ll, I, I’ll fly back to, um, I’ll fly back to New York and we can drive your stuff across country. You got to come to L.A. And that’s how I got to L.A.. Kind of drove me across the country. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:31] Did you ever run across Bernie Mac while you were in Chicago? Did you all the same club? Robert Townsend [00:10:36] No. No, I never because I had left by that point. And I was just doing movies and television. And, uh, when I met Bernie, I was directing BAPS and, uh, um, there was a little small part in BAPS, and everybody was like this. This guy to Chicago, you you need to meet him. Bernie Mac. And then, uh, Bernie did the, you know, the cameo in, uh, in BAPS for me, you know, But I didn’t know him, you know? I just knew. He’s a funny man. Oh, my God. But I would see him at clubs, and he goes, Uh, you know, I’m from Chicago. Boy, you know, I’m from Chicago. You know, we we Chicago boys, we got stick together, you know, and I was just like, man, But he was. He was a beautiful brother. Beautiful brother. [00:11:20] If you’re just joining us, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and you’re listening to In Black America from Coogee radio. And we’re speaking with Robert Townsend, actor, comedian, film director, former CEO of network writer and one of my favorite TV programs that I watched constantly now the Parenthood. Mr. Townsend, tell us about that cameo role in Cooley High. Robert Townsend [00:11:45] You know, when I was a young actor in Chicago, I was doing theater at an X Bag. It was called X Bag Experimental Black Actors Guild. And, um, the director, uh, my first director there, Payment RAIMI He was also working on a movie, this new movie coming to Chicago, doing extras and helping out behind the scenes. It was called Cooley High and so the director, Michael Schultz, came to see me in the play at X Bag. And then he goes, Oh, you’re going to have an audition. And so I went in and auditioned. I had like a little small part, but I had never done a movie before. And, uh, that movie changed my life because, uh. I had two lines in the movie, but then the movie became a classic. When I saw it, I said, I want to make movies like that. That’s those are the kind of movies I want to make and that kind of change. I remember watching it, I think it was downtown at the Woods Theater was the premiere or something, and I just remember seeing that movie and it just changed me because back then we had, you know, Black exploitation movies, right? You know, but they were just my hero. So I can’t even say exploitation. They were it was the first time we had, you know, Black men and women kicking butt and taking names and falling in love and getting a girl. And, you know, so they were my heroes. So I don’t when people say Black exploitation, you know, but that was a certain that was a certain genre. But then Cooley High came out and it was like my childhood. It was like me and my boys hanging out. So that that was how it began. But that audition with Michael Schultz. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:25] What was it like that first day on set? You know, you dream about being in a movie, but actually showing up and knowing I’m going to be in a movie no matter how small the part is. Robert Townsend [00:13:38] Well, you know, you’re in all you know, I mean, I was just like, oh, my God. And I had, you know, seen Lawrence Hill and Jacobs and I knew Glynn Turman and their work. And so I was just like, Oh, my God, I’m getting to work with New York, you know, you know, the New York the A-list of New York, you know, Black actors. So I was just in heaven. And then, you know, I didn’t know Michael Schultz, you know, but the way he talked to actors, he just made everybody feel really comfortable. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:11] Is your homeboy. Robert Townsend [00:14:12] Yeah. Yeah. He was just really cool. And it was just, you know, and we we just had the best time. And I just remember, like, wow, you know, this is what movies are like. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:23] Another memorable role playing Corporal Ellis in A Soldier’s Story. Robert Townsend [00:14:27] Oh, man, that was a ball, because that was the first time I work with Denzel. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:33] Did you know you’re going to blow up like he has? Robert Townsend [00:14:36] Oh, my God. I mean, he’s always been really serious about his craft, so. No, I was. I’m not surprised. I’m not surprised at all. I mean, you know, back then, you know, because he had done the the the show, the theater production of A Soldier’s Play. And I was in L.A., and I remember loving the show. But then, you know, when they said, hey, they’re going to make a movie, you know, they always go after the biggest names in Hollywood. And so Norman Jewison, who directed it, he was kind of like, you know what? I’m going to go with new faces. I’m not going to go with the traditional route. And then Reuben Cannon was casting it, and I went in for the part of Corporal Ellis, and I got it. And it was me, Denzel, David Alan Grier, Howard Rollins, Adolph Caesar. And we just had a ball. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:23] Now, Caesar is not with any longer, but the rest of them are. Do you still get a chance to come across each other from time to time? Robert Townsend [00:15:30] Well, you know, Howard Rollins passed away as well. Yes. You know, so I mean, but everybody’s always you know, everybody’s busy. So we see each other every now and then, like at an awards show or something. But, you know, people are always traveling. And so if you if you’re in the same city and you run into each other, we do still see each other. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:49] Why was it important for you to make Hollywood Shuffle? Robert Townsend [00:15:53] Well, the Hollywood shuffle came at a time when the images of people of color were really negative. Mm hmm. There were more. You know, they had, you know, the stereotypes in full effect. You know, you had pimps, you had drug dealers, you had gangsters, you know. So it was just. That’s all you saw Black men. Mhm. So I was either I was going to die because that’s the box that at that time that Hollywood was putting all Black you know, actors in and uh, you know, rather than complain I decided that I was going to make a movie. You know what? Keenan and I decided that we were going to make a movie about our journey as young actors in Hollywood, and that’s kind of how it all started. We shot the movie in 12 days. To finish the film, I, I use my credit cards, so it was just hustling on the highest level. And then the film became a huge success. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:52] I was going to ask you about that. Did you ever think it would be an iconic classic that I watch every time it comes on television? Uh. Robert Townsend [00:17:00] Well, here’s the thing that I would say is that when when you create something that you’re just having fun and it’s not about like, what people think. Keenan and I were just having a good time and being silly and making each other laugh. We thought it was funny. And then eventually the world said, Oh, this is really funny, and it just came together. But but we were just having a good time. Did we think it was good? Yeah, we thought it was funny. You know, did we think it was going to take off the way it did? Not really. We just knew we had done something different and special. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:35] That same year, you you directed Eddie Murphy’s Raw. How did you and Mr. Murphy get together? Robert Townsend [00:17:41] Well, Eddie was on the comedy circuit, you know, in New York, and we had all seen each other. And then after we did the Hollywood Shuffle, Eddie called and wanted to cause he had heard about the movie. And he said, Oh, brother, everybody talk my Hollywood shuffle, man, you know? And, you know, we weren’t in that many theaters, so you couldn’t really see it. And it wasn’t like DVDs or anything, you know. So then I said, Man, I’ll set up a screening for you. But I had also written a scene in there where we talk about being an Eddie Murphy type. And so then, you know, and then Keenan was like, because Keenan didn’t want to put the scene in there. And I was like, Keenan, You know, it’s funny, man. They want us to be like Eddie Murphy. And he’s like, Robin, put that in there. And I put it in there. And then Eddie called an hour to see the movie. So we were like, Oh, my God, I made a mistake. And so we have the screening for Eddie, and he loves the movie and he loves the scene. And then as he’s walking out of the screening, he says, Hey, I’m going to do this movie in a stand up concert film. It’s going to be called Raw. You want to direct it. And I said, Yeah. And he goes, It’s yours then. And that’s how I got raw. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:54] When you sit down to do a project, what are some of the elements that that you want to include? Because it seems that from my vantage point thus far, the movies that you’ve made, even the television programs, are somewhat family friendly. Robert Townsend [00:19:10] Well, you know, here’s the thing. I, I just gravitate to what I want to create. And and sometimes people will send me a script or there’s an idea that I have. So when I think in terms of the Five Heartbeats, for example, I wanted to do a movie about five guys, total different guys, and how they become a family, making, making music. And so that’s how that came about. Meteor Man I wanted to, you know, be the first African-American superhero, and I wanted it to be funny and I wanted to make it for kids. So, um, Holiday Hard, which is a film that I directed, I think, you know, uh, it’s a theme, you know, uh, of of nontraditional family. But I think any time, you know, I create stuff, even the parenthood that I just really wanted to help raise a generation of kids because I know they’re going to be sitting in front of the TV. So how do I give them, you know, basic lessons on morals and values? And that’s why I created that show. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:16] Tell us about the Robert Townsend Foundation. Robert Townsend [00:20:18] My foundation, I have always been committed to filmmakers and helping artists of color. And so over the years, I’ve done masterclasses around the country and I’ve mentored a lot of different filmmakers. And so it’s just my way of giving back. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:34] I was going to ask you, you mentioned it in your other answer. Have you put your finger on why the Five Heartbeats every time it comes on? It’s a major viewing event and it had lasted, you know, 20 plus years. Robert Townsend [00:20:47] You know, I think the Five Heartbeats resonates with people because the different themes, you know, I think, one, it’s about forgiveness. At the end of the day. Uh, and I, you know, um, you have five guys, you have a falling out, you have a roller coaster ride of rags to riches and all of that. But at the end of the day, they are still family and they forgive each other and they work it out. And I think everybody in life goes through ups and downs, and it’s like, how do you handle it? And I think at the end of the Five Heartbeats, and I don’t know if you’ve seen the documentary Making the Five Heartbeats, which is, you know, the journey behind the film, but it’s kind of like that theme of forgiveness is the overriding theme. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:37] Can you tell us about the gentleman, Jack, Will the Real Project? Are you working with that still? Robert Townsend [00:21:44] Yes, I am. As a matter of fact, on July 10th at the, uh, Wilton Theater in Los Angeles, you know, a gentleman. A gentleman. Jack has been doing something really interesting. They have been doing all of these screenings of short films as well as discussions with filmmakers. So on July 10th, uh, at the Wiltern, they’re going to show a few films from up and coming filmmakers, and then they’re going to have a discussion with me and I’ll be talking about how I make my movies, why I picked a certain scripts, how I work and just, you know, my overall vision as an artist. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:22:26] Tell us about Carmen. Robert Townsend [00:22:27] Carmen, the hip hop opera. Yeah, it was the first hip hop opera. It was Beyonce’s first time acting. So, you know, I was her first director. You have the most definite. You have bow wow. You have Jermaine Dupri. You have Mickey Phifer. So he had an all star cast. And, uh, it was a hip hop opera. And it, uh, it was based on, uh, the opera. Carmen. But it had never, you know, no one had ever seen, uh, a movie where it was rapping all the way through. And, uh, it became one of the highest rated movies for MTV. That’s who produced it. But I had the best time working on it, and it just came out. It’s on Netflix this month, right? Um, but I. I was so proud to work on it on that film. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:17] I understand. Tell us about the TI unit. Robert Townsend [00:23:20] Huh? Uh, uh, the TI unit. Uh, that’s my daughters and my son. You know, behind the scenes, they’re always working with me. That’s my daughter, Skye. My daughter Sierra. My daughter, Alexia. Uh, my son, Isaiah. And so, you know, they started when they were really young, working with me as babies. And so now, you know, when I work on a project, like, I just shot a presentation for a new, um, a new project. And my kids were, you know, involved in the casting and working with me to, to identify new talent, new artists. So the T union, those are my babies. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:58] That they just naturally gravitate to the industry or did you try to coach them along? Robert Townsend [00:24:04] You know what? They naturally gravitate, Gravitated Well, see, growing up in Hollywood, you know, they, they you know, they’ve walked many red carpets with me, been to premieres and all that stuff. And then at a certain point they go, I want them talking to me, not just talking to you. Yeah. So? So they’re always vying for that attention. So I get it. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:27] In the last four decades, obviously, Hollywood was a different animal when you first came there. Has it changed that much? Robert Townsend [00:24:35] I would say it has changed. You know, I mean, there’s a lot more images of people of color and there’s a lot of new voices that have emerged. So, you know, when I started, it was just basically me and Spike. And then, you know, Kenan started to make, you know, movies. And then John Singleton appeared. So, you know, now there’s a whole new crop of filmmakers that are, you know, aggressive and taking chances. And so it is a different Hollywood now. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:08] I got two more question. One question is, are we ever going to see a dramatic television program? The last one I can remember is Larry was sindrome with lewd gossip. Most of the African-Americans on television, they’re probably in a comedy or situation. Comedy situation. Robert Townsend [00:25:24] Well, I mean, when you look at, uh, how to get away with murder or Scandal, I mean, those are. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:29] Right. Robert Townsend [00:25:30] Characters in a dramatic situation. When you look at this guy, that’s a dramatic power. So there are dramas, you know what I mean? So I, I just know from from my side, you know, the the new ideas that I have in my head, they’re all so different. And so I I’m always going to try something new. But I think right now there’s a there’s a lot more images than than we’ve had before. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:54] Did you ever get a chance to keep the houndstooth hat you had on The Five Heartbeats? Robert Townsend [00:25:58] Say that again. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:59] That Hound two hat that you wore in the Five Heartbeats, did you keep that or you went back to wardrobe? Robert Townsend [00:26:05] I kept it, but what happened was I had a building that was my studio in Hollywood. And when the earthquake hit, I lost everything in the earthquake. And so, yes, all my props and all my stuff was in the in the, uh, in my building, in my studio. And, uh, it was like a 16,000 square foot building. But when the aftershocks came, you know, you know, people were like, we go in there and get it. I was like, No, no, I want to body die trying to get my hat. No, no. So, so a lot of my stuff got, you know, lost in the earthquake. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:39] What do you see yourself five, ten years from now? Mr. Townsend? Robert Townsend [00:26:45] You know what? 5 to 10 years from now, I just want to continue to create. You know, I, I love, you know, making, you know, movies and television shows. Um, next month I go down to, you know, Atlanta. I’m shooting Black Lightning, so I’ve been directing that and acting on that. And then, uh, American Soul four Betty, uh, directed a few episodes of that, so I may be going to that, uh, been working on a one man show about my life, so it’s just a lot. I’m just being an artist. So for the next years, I just want to continue to create and just do what I do now. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:21] American Soul was the story of Don Cornelius and Soul Train. Robert Townsend [00:27:25] Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So we we did the. First season, I directed two episodes and people really seem to love the show. And so now there’s a new season. And so, you know, they’re putting the schedule together now, and so I’ll see if I’m going to come back for that. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:41] Robert Townsend, comedian, actor, film director, producer, writer and former cable network programing CEO. If you have questions, cameras or suggestions, ask the Future In Black America programs. Email us at In Black America Editor Kuchi Date Ohaji. Also, let us know what radio station you heard is over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on his program are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing to In Black America CDs, KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keeton St, Austin, Texas 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio. The post Robert Townsend (Ep. 21, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

On this week’s In Black America program, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. speaks with Laura W. Cheever, MD., Associate Administrator for the HIV/AIDS Bureau of the Health Resources and Services Administration, about the need to emphasize awareness of and access to HIV/AIDS treatment services for African Americans. The post Dr. Laura W. Cheever (Ep. 20, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents highlights of the 15th Annual Johnnie L. Cochran, Jr. Salute to Excellence Awards held during Super Bowl LIV week, featuring speakers Roger Goodell, Troy Vincent, and Fritz Pollard Trophy winner Trey Smith. The post The 15th Annual Fritz Pollard Awards (Ep. 19, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.