In Black America

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents a discussion on the legacy and impact of Black college football and its contributions to the NFL moderated by Dr. Derrick E. White and featuring researcher Makiba Foster, NFL executive Arthur McAfee, and former HBCU alumni and NFL players Larry Little and De’Lance Turner. The post HBCUs and Football (Ep. 18, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents a discussion of the rich history of Black college football and its contributions to the National Football League with Dr. Derrick E. White, Associate Professor of History and African American and Africana Studies at the University of Kentucky. The post Dr. Derrick E. White (Ep. 17, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. concludes his conversation with Sean Durant, producer and director of Gina’s Journey: The Search for William Grimes, and Regina A. Mason, author of The Life of William Grimes, The Runaway Slave. [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio. This is In Black America. Virginia Mason [00:00:23] The year was 2000 when my mother and I took a trip back to King George County, Virginia, where William Grimes was born, and the estate. Eagle’s Nest still stands. And that was the home of Benjamin Grimes. And I wanted to I in fact, I was invited to go back and to tour the grounds with the present day owner who had no affiliation with the family. By the way, Eagle’s Nest remained in the Grimes and Fitzhugh family for 300 years before it sold in 1974, the year I began high school. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:05] Virginia Mason, International speaker, executive producer and author of Life of William Grimes The Runaway Slave, published by Oxford University Press. The Life of William Grimes. The Runaway Slave is the first fugitive slave narrative in American history because Grimes wrote and published this narrative on his own without deference to white energy, his publisher or sponsors. His life in intimacy, candor and no holds barred realism unparalleled in the famous antebellum slave narratives during that time. Mason In the same vein as the late Alex Haley and her stories about her great great great grandfather, William Grimes, following clues on my aunt Katherine she and bonked on a 15 year journey. She would later partner with William Andrews to publish a new edition of his pioneering work in 2017, a documentaries made combining two stories. Mason’s journey to discover and trace the steps of our ancestor and Grimes story as a slave and his thirst for freedom. I’m Daniel Henderson, Jr. And welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, Gina’s Journey The Search for William Grimes, But Sean Durant and Regina Mason, Part two. In Black America. Virginia Mason [00:02:25] Once I started digging into this story and realizing that no other scholars had really looked at it. In fact, when I went looking for any body of research that was done on William Grimes, it was so inaccurate. And there were historians who just took a liberty to to write about this man, having not done any research whatsoever. And then I came across the work of Dr. William Andrews, a scholar from you, and C, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Right. This extraordinary expert on early African American autobiography. I came across his book to tell a free story, and he studies the slave narratives. And included in his body of work, which is sort of like the Scholars Bible today. He wrote about William Grimes. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:26] Regina E. Mason is a remarkable woman. She spent 15 years of her life researching the life of a great, great, great grandfather, William Grimes. With nothing to go on but the connection to the Underground Railroad. She spent countless hours in libraries, reading books, looking at microfilm and census records. Grimes was ten years old when he was all the way from the eyes of a grieving mother to a far off plantation who grew up friendless and motherless with apparently no surrogate slave, family or loved ones to embrace him. No one even to look after him. Grimes was the first person to go through slavery in the South and write about it. This was the first time Southern slavery exposed from the perspective of one who had lived it. And he was the first author to write about the harsh realities of the North, despite the narrative of his being a Freedomland. Recently In Black America, I spoke with Sean Durant, the producer of Gina’s Journey, the Search for William Grimes and Regina mason. On today’s program, we conclude our conversation. Speaker 4 [00:04:31] And so my co-producer contacted his agent, his agency, and they sent it over. And to my astonishment, he came back and was like, I’ll do it. And it was more than a reasonable rate and which also made a saint. And the next thing you know, I was out in in Hollywood, in Melrose, actually, at his recording studio and directing Keith David in the booth, which was mind blowing, to say the least. And he was astonished to see, you know, me and, you know, given my age and what I’d done and being an African-American male to be directing this film. So that really made him happy when he saw that he just was was really blown away with it. But he blessed the project, came in. He did the most amazing work on it, and it really just elevated Gina’s story and Grimes story to a whole new level. So we will be entirely thankful to him for that. And every once in a while I do have talks with him still, and he’s just a really good person. And I think he’s a studier of history. He’s very big in the voiceover world. He’s an Emmy Award winning voice actor who’s done a ton of Ken Burns documentaries, right? So he was really into it and this is his thing. So I think he really enjoyed working on this project and we were better for it. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:50] Yeah, I. Matt Mason Honestly, this was labor intense. This is way before Google and everything else. So what gave you that consistent drive to work wanting to complete this project? Virginia Mason [00:06:05] William Grimes himself, You know, when you read his narrative, all that he endured in life, the cruelty, the abuse, right at every turn, he was reminded that he was nothing, but he never bought into the status quo. In fact, he defied the status quo at every turn. Just the fact that he had the notion that he was capable of writing his own story without any assistance from white people speaks to who he was and how self-assured he was. So his example of perseverance and endurance gave me the will to to just carry on and see this this project to to the end. And I’m speaking of the book project. And I do have to say this. Once I started digging into this story and realizing that no other scholars had really looked at it. In fact, when I went looking for any body of research that was done on William Grimes, it was so inaccurate. And there were his. Arias, who just took a liberty to to write about this man having not done any research whatsoever. And then I came across the work of Dr. William Andrews, scholar from you and see you and see Chapel Hill. University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Right. This extraordinary expert on early African American autobiography. I came across his book to tell a free story. And he studies the slave narratives. And included in his body of work, which is sort of like the scholar’s Bible today. He wrote about William Grimes. Not a whole lot more than I had found those about four pages of work. And I needed to make sense of that genre of literature that I really knew nothing about. So I reached out to him and he at the time was the only living scholar who that who I could talk to. And we sort of built a relationship. Every now and then I would send him information about what I found of William Grimes. And he one day wrote me back and he said, Look, the work you’ve done has to be preserved in some fashion or another. And then he broached the idea of partnering to do a book, because I knew that Bill knew that I, I wanted to bring this story to light this new scholarship that had never been done before on William Grimes. And he definitely was the right person because obviously he had studied Grimes. He had written about Grimes. And there was really no one else that I could associate myself with. And he was the man when it came to early African-American autobiography. And so we partnered and we developed what we call or what has been the authoritative edition of The Life of William Grimes, the Runaway Slave. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:41] What was it like your feelings when you you read his narrative and then understood that your great great grandfather was just not an ordinary slave? Virginia Mason [00:09:56] Well, I want to say this. William Grimes was an ordinary man who did an extraordinary thing. I want people to realize we may not have those narratives out there. We may not be able to to we can may be able to find our ancestor who had been enslaved on a in a plantation records or slave inventories. And all you see are names. Sadly, those voices, we will never know their voice or their humanity because the story doesn’t exist, Right? So to find this first person account of slavery and by the way, William Grimes is the first person of color to go through slavery in the South and write about it. So for the first time, we got to hear about Southern slavery from the perspective of the slave and not from the slave owner himself. So it’s a different kind of story and it’s more authentic and true in terms of the experience. So to recover this and then associate myself to this narrative, I realize that all of his virtues are inside of me. So when you say William Grimes was not the ordinary slave, he definitely speaks for those who didn’t have a voice. And I believe that none of the slaves bought into the enslaved narrative that was supposed to be their destination and ultimately was their destination. Or, yes, I believe that they all had that will to be free and and in their own circumstances, they asserted whatever power they had in a rebellious way. And so to know, though, that William Grimes was able to make it out of slavery and to tell his story is huge. It is. It’s just incredibly empowering and. I realized again that his virtues exist in me, and he was my example every step of the way. When I wanted to give up, when I was faced with all kinds of closed doors, I realized that he faced those same issues and he was told no. Over and over again. But he found a way to get it done. And so I, I it brings me great pride that this enslaved man who never bought into the status quo live within me. And so, you know, Shawn and I talk about this all the time because to get this film done was also it was a huge challenge. Money was always an issue. And we found ways and I can understand how he, you know, had to fill in pieces and so forth to get the project done. But we always had William Grimes at our back, and he was always the the example that we aimed for because we knew if he was capable of not only getting writing in his book, but finding a way to to to sell his book and to register with the state of Connecticut, we realized that it was within us to get our projects done as well. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:45] Whatever you all were going through really wasn’t that difficult. Virginia Mason [00:13:49] Absolutely. Speaker 4 [00:13:50] Absolutely. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:51] What do you want readers and just ask you first the same question and also you, Mr. Duran. What do you want readers to come away from the book and also the movie? Speaker 4 [00:14:02] Well, I would say, you know, in Jena can speak even deeper on her story in the movie and the book. But for me, particularly with the movie, you know, I want them to to get from the movie, to go get the book to read about the details of William Grimes’s life and his story, and to read about Jena’s story, which is in the afterword of the book. So really, the movie is just the beginning of their journey of understanding this journey. So what I want them to get out of the movie is to go see the movie and understand that we all have a story. We all can tell our story, whether it be from writing a book, doing a movie, passing it down to your children as she passed it down to her daughters. But just getting out there and discover now we have, you know, Ancestry.com and T3 in me, but I want them to watch the movie and understand that history is important. Our stories are important. And in finding the content that’s meaningful out there and spreading it, we worked long and hard and Jena put in a lot of time to create and get this book done. And then she, you know, unselfishly went on another ten years to make the film and to get it out to a wide audience. We want people to find it. Go to our Web site at Gina’s journey dot com, and then go to Amazon Prime and watch the movie and, you know, obviously tell a thousand of their best friends to watch it because we really think that is an important story. We think that, you know, William Grimes is an important historical figure that needs to be in the history books. I think it’s important because I want I always wanted to make film with strong female leads. I got that from James Cameron, who idolize as a director and a producer. And I think Regina mason is that. And I think that it’s important for people to see that we can not only make content about African-American people or just Americans in American history, but for this new movement with women that they can be strong, they can stand up, they can get their own history, they can do the things that everybody else in men can do, and they can share those stories with their children and in particularly their daughters. We want people to watch the film and realize they can make a movie about or go further than that. They can actually become president of the United States, you know, after Michelle does or her daughter. So, you know, that’s what I want people to get out of the film, that there is no limitations. Now, the old rules of Hollywood, you can’t make a film without us are gone. The streaming services have changed all of that. Anybody We made this film from script to screen to stream and and we did it all on our own, financed by us. My wife was the executive producer, another strong, powerful Black women along with Regina mason, to show that we can take control of our stories and we can can can guide other people to and and get them out there. So I’m hoping that people will have, you know, a good response to the film. It encouraged them to go learn about history, learn about their past, whether it’s through DNA or other methods, but more importantly. Go out and tell your own story. Tell your own story. So please go watch Gina’s journey. The search for William Grimes on Amazon Prime and definitely spread the word. Virginia Mason [00:17:34] Mason Yes, I would like the audience or people to take away from this film a couple things. First of all and foremost, and it’s by William Grimes’s example is to give yourself permission, and that is now a virtue I live by. MM If we sat around and waited for the scholars, the academics, the, the people with all the money and the lofty titles to retrieve this story, we would still be waiting if we waited for someone in Hollywood to give us a permission. Permission to make this film, we would still be waiting. The bottom line is something that William Grimes shows us in this film and in this book is to give yourself permission. And I want women to take that away, that message away children, anyone who has a desire or is passionate about anything. Don’t wait for someone to tell you, yes, you can, because you’ll be waiting a long time. You have to go out there and seize the moment by any means necessary. Okay. And when I say any means necessary, I mean in a good, law abiding way, you can get your story out there. And stories are powerful. Storytelling changes, perspectives. You’re not out there pointing fingers and saying, you know, you are this here, that you should have done it this way. So you simply tell your story and people what people will take away, what they need from this story. And we have people come to us all the time and talking about how this movie has inspired them and inspired them in ways that we never even conceptualize. So storytelling is powerful. Film is a great way to tell a marvelous story, and so is writing your life story. But another thing that I want our audience to come away with is that genealogy for the African American has the power to reclaim what was once denied. You see, by reclaiming the lives of our people who are often marginal and insignificant. We get a chance to honor them when we reclaim this history, and through that process of reclaiming and honoring our ancestors, fortify us and they help to make us whole. That is very important to me, and I want people out there into generationally talking about the family story. So often we hear about, Oh, who wants to talk about that? I mean, I’ve heard this so many times. Who wants to talk about picking cotton? You know, let’s leave that in the past. But yeah, we got to talk about the painful things. We have to talk about the history and what we lived through so that we young can remember what it was like. But not only that, they’re going to carry those names forward so they’re not forgotten. They’re going to carry those locations forward. There’ll be a memory of where our people came from. And then once you start doing the research, you put meat on the bones and then a story develops one worthy of remembrance and sharing. So I hope Sheila’s journey of the search for William Grimes sparks that kind of an interest and dialog. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:29] And the same. One final question. Were you able to reach out to Benjamin Grimes family once you completed this project? Virginia Mason [00:21:35] Oh, let me tell you. Yes. The year was 2000 when my mother and I took a trip back to King George County, Virginia, where William Grimes was born and the estate Eagle’s Nest still stands. And that was the home of Benjamin Grimes. And I wanted to in fact, I was invited to go back and to tour the grounds with the present day owner who had no affiliation with the the family. By the way, Eagle’s Nest remained in the family for three. The Grimes and Fitz, your family for 300 years before it sold in 1974, the year I began high school. So that legacy was rich and very much entrenched. And I went back there at the invitation of the present day owner, and he told me that, you know, we really should get this story to the historic local historical society, because it’s he thought it was a compelling story. Long story short, at the time, in the year 2000, when I thought we had come a long way as a nation. I was moved. The story was sort of rebuffed and they were not interested in it. And then I realized what I was up against. Mm hmm. So I. I left it alone. And when my book came out in 2008, and even up to the present time, I get people contacting me all all the time saying that we are related. And these are white Grimes’s and Fitz, and we have connected. And they’re the younger generation who are definitely open to the story. And so it sort of taken an interesting and a nice twist in that we are embracing each other. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:48] Any final comment, Sean? Speaker 4 [00:23:50] No, just information on basically how to how to help us out in this journey. People want to get involved. A good place to start is w WW dot Gina’s journey dot com. It has the trailer. It has all the information on the film, all the places we’ve been, all the places we’re going, and most importantly, a link to seeing the film on the biggest platform, which is Amazon Prime. The most important thing is we want to share the story and get it out. Another myth you want to dispel is that a lot of people think that African-Americans in general can’t work together. Well, I think Regina’s Masons family, my family, and all of us together prove that that’s not true. We took the book, we entered a seven year journey, and we were able to come out on the other side with this wonderful film. And everybody is still friendly. We’re all together. You know, we we, you know, fought like cats and dogs, and we’re very passionate about getting the best quality and getting this done. But our bonds were never broken. We started as a family group. We we made this incredible project and we ended as an even stronger family group. And that’s something that I think is important for people to know. And the only way they’re going to know that is if, you know, our group as African-Americans and Americans at large spread the word about this film to create a studio quality, independent film and maintain the story rights for Gina and maintain the ownership of the film is an incredible story in itself, and it proves what we can do not only as a as a family group, but as you know, as a people in general. So I think it’s important to get that out. And the only way that’s going to happen is if we move mountains by blowing this film up, we want it to go viral. So please watch it on Amazon Prime. Spread the Web site, spread the link around and leave a review. Leaving reviews on Amazon Prime helps r r r algorithm. It helps it get bigger and bigger and spread further. So the best thing that we think the audience can do for us and the greatest compliment is to just tell a friend about the film. And in that way they become part of our journey. This film was made for the community, by the community, made by people that helped us along the way, and now we’re just going to the next phase of it. So anything they can do to spread the word, you know, nationally, internationally about the film, anything they can do to get the word out there and let people know about this story, we greatly appreciate. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:30] Ms.. Mason, you’ll find the comments. Virginia Mason [00:26:32] Oh, yes. I just kind of wanted to echo a little bit about what Sean is saying. We definitely want the public to support this film, genuinely support it, and to view it and view it with their all ages, their grandparents, mothers, fathers make it a family thing because it is a family story. It is definitely a family story. And one thing that Sean and I like to do and we have been invited really from the East Coast to the West Coast and all this all over the U.S. bringing screenings to on university level campuses. We’re at Historical Society genealogical societies. We come with our film and we have a nice presentation that we bring to. The audience as well. So we show the film are accessible on Amazon Prime is Shaun said. But we do engagements all over the nation as well, so if anyone’s interested, they can check us out on Genius Journey dot com. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:39] Regina mason International Speaker, executive producer and author of Life of William Grimes, The Runaway Slave, published by Oxford University Press. If you have questions, comments or suggestions as to the future In Black America programs, email us at In Black America at Kuti that ohaji. Also, let us know what radio station you heard is over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at KUT.org Until we had the opportunity again for Jodi co producer David Alvarez. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. Speaker 2 [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by Writing In Black America CDs, KUT Radio 300 West Dean Keeton St., Austin, Texas 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio. The post Sean Durant and Regina A. Mason (Ep. 16, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

On this edition of In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. begins a conversation with Regina A. Mason, author of The Life of William Grimes, The Runaway Slave, and Sean Durant, producer and director of Gina’s Journey: The Search for William Grimes. The post Regina Mason and Sean Durant (Ep. 15, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

On this week’s program, In Black America producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. discusses the high rates of maternal mortality among African American women with Juan Pablo Segura, co-founder of Washington, DC.-based mobile app Babyscripts. Intro [00:00:08] The In Black America theme music, an instrumental by Kyle Turner. Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. Juan Pablo Segura [00:00:23] The first thing we did, myself and the other founder, we we actually went and got a chief medical officer. And so we we very quickly brought in an open two way and the chair of obstetrics at a hospital here in D.C. called Sibley Hospital. And, you know, we started putting together a team of technologists. So, you know, developers, you know, health care specialists. And very slowly, you know, we we have we had a big vision, which was how could we get not just smartphones, but Internet connected medical devices to the whole Internet of Things revolution. How could we get those devices in the patient’s home and start to catch problems earlier through remote patient monitoring so that less moms have to die in this country when it comes to them going through their pregnancy? John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:11] Juan Pablo Segura, co-founder of the Washington, DC based Babies Groups. In recent years as high rate of maternal mortality in this country have alarmed researchers. One statistic has been especially concerning. According to the Center for Disease Control, African American mothers die at 3 to 4 times the rate of white mothers, one of the widest of all racial disparities in women’s health. Put another way an African-American woman is 22% more likely to die from heart disease than a white counterpart, 71% more likely to perish from cervical cancer. But 243% more likely to die from pregnancy on childbirth related causes. In a national study of five medical complications that are common causes for maternal death and injury. African American women were 2 to 3 times more likely to die than white women who had the same condition. Segura and his team at Babyscripts have been working tirelessly to improve maternal health in the District of Columbia, as well as around the nation. I’m Danielle Hinton, Jr, and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, African-American D.C. mothers are Dying and we Can Save Them. With Juan Pablo Segura, co-founder of Babyscripts In Black America. Juan Pablo Segura [00:02:28] I really think as we think about trying to solve the problems that we have here in the district, since there are very few doctors offices in Ward seven and eight, which are the very economically disadvantaged wards here in DC, there actually are no hospitals and maternity hospitals in Wards seven and eight. So if someone wants to deliver, they have to cross town. So think of the cost of doing that the time. You know, if there’s an issue. Complications that could occur by having to wait so long. So what we’ve been talking a lot about here in DC and a lot of work that I’ve been doing is how can we get digital tools that can make care available at any time, any place? How do we make them more accessible and how can we get doctors to give them more to their patients? John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:11] Washington, DC, like many cities in this country, experienced the lack of access for quality health care in certain neighborhoods. This has created a unique problem for African-American pregnant women. With that in mind, Juan Pablo Segura, co-founder of Babyscripts, designed the platform to help expectant mothers. Two years ago, Wisconsin based health care provider as baby script to develop a strategy to reach that population. They realized they had to focus on technology and target ease of access via smartphone and to text messaging for women having trouble getting health care. What began in 2014 with the hope of transforming both how doctors and patients think of and use technology to improve their health care has now provided meaningful access to health care in underserved communities and improve the status quo of pregnancy care. Recently In Black America spoke with Juan Pablo Segura. Juan Pablo Segura [00:04:07] So I actually was born in that in the D.C. area, in Northern Virginia. My family’s actually from Argentina. So I’m a first generation American, and yet where I have stuck around D.C. haven’t really fallen too far from the tree here. Love of the district. And I started my company Babyscripts here in the in the D.C. area as well. So very, very proud of what we’re doing here in the district. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:35] What led you to start the company? Juan Pablo Segura [00:04:38] It’s really interesting. I used to be a consultant working for a big company called Deloitte. And, you know, I, I was I still am, you know, a lost millennial. Right? And so I just couldn’t I really couldn’t jive very well with with a big company. I was looking for meaning, looking to do something impactful. And a friend of mine had had a real tough health care experience that just opened my eyes to how broken the U.S. health care system was. And so, you know, I decided to do what anyone that’s watched Shark Tank. To do. I started a company and I ended up choosing pregnancy care because of my mom. I come from a big Hispanic Catholic family. You know, I had five siblings, so I’m one of six kids. And as I kind of reflected on my mom’s journey in health care, she actually had three miscarriages. And, you know, just the memories I had of the pain, the lack of answers. You know, I really believe that I believed back then, and I still believe to this day that technology and data and all these new tools that we have at our disposal can really start to solve and answer some of these tough questions for women especially. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:59] Now, I understand that you started this, what, in 2014? Juan Pablo Segura [00:06:02] Yup. 2014. Five very long years ago. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:06] And how did you put the group together? I guess you got designers and engineers and marketers and doctors and sciences. Juan Pablo Segura [00:06:14] Yeah. So the first thing we did. So, you know, I’ve. I’ve got big ideas and wanted to make a big impact. But the first thing we did, myself and the other founder, we we actually went and got a chief medical officer. And so we, we very quickly brought in an open to way and the chair of obstetrics at a hospital here in D.C. called Sibley Hospital. And, you know, we started putting together a team of technologists. So, you know, developers, you know, health care specialist. And very slowly, you know, we we have we had a big vision, which was how could we get not just smartphones, but Internet connected medical devices to the whole Internet of Things revolution. How could we get those devices into patients homes and start to catch problems earlier through remote patient monitoring so that less moms have to die in this country when it comes to them going through their pregnancy? And so, you know, it took a long time to get to where we’re at today. But what’s really exciting is we’re now in more than 50 health systems in 23 different states, and we touch around 200,000 pregnant women across the country. So, you know, it’s you know, I think anything’s possible in this country with a big idea and a lot of energy and a lot of hope. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:32] You would think in the nation’s capital, you know, health care will probably, you know, you’ll be one of the best. But what are some of the root causes of the high infant mortality rate that’s going on in the nation’s capital? Juan Pablo Segura [00:07:45] Yeah. So that’s definitely a loaded question. Okay. And, you know, there are a lot of issues going on in D.C. But for those that might not know in D.C., you know, when you start to look at the breakdown of of maternal mortality, especially amongst racial groups, black women in this country, you know, have about a 70. It’s all measured out of 100,000 people. But, you know, our rate is about 70 out of 100,000. That’s almost three times the national rate of maternal mortality. And it’s double the national rate of black maternal mortality. So when you start looking at the outcomes that we’re getting in the D.C. area, they’re really abysmal. And it’s a travesty. And, you know, there are a lot of reasons for that. Some a lot of them are tied to poverty and economic inequality. A lot of it is tied to, you know, also, you know, racial bias and dumping in black women, not getting the care that they need when they need it because of the color of their skin. And there are also a lot of issues around structural barriers, lack of transportation to go see a doctor, not enough hospitals where, you know, either the black women or the disadvantaged, economically disadvantaged women live. And so it’s almost impossible to really get good care so that, you know, you can have a healthy and happy pregnancy and delivery and postpartum journey. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:18] I understand there’s a bill before Congress or has it has it passed? Juan Pablo Segura [00:09:22] So there’s some pretty interesting nationwide. There actually are a couple of bills that are being led by some incredibly progressive and really innovative Congress, women and men. For example, Congresswoman Underwood from Illinois is is pushing some really important national, you know, whether it’s maternity bills in the in the Congress, but here at home with the D.C. council. So the local kind of legislative organization here in the nation’s capital that covers the D.C. residence, there’s actually been a couple incredible bills. For example, the maternal health Care Improvement and Expansion Act that are really focusing both the government and local business and organizations to start to address these massive gap in outcomes for. For black women here in the district and for all women as well, but especially for for for minorities. And so we’ve been actually trying to work really hard to get this bill passed and to be approved. And so now it’s in the House committee here in the D.C. Council. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:31] I was looking at some of the literature in which you all said, and I want to go through some of them. Digital health tools such as remote patient monitoring. How does that work? Juan Pablo Segura [00:10:42] Yeah. So so I think maybe to kind of separate what what, what we do as a company and then what we’re trying to do here in the district. Okay. So, yeah, a lot of digital health, you know, in mobile health. When you think of innovation in health care through technology, there’s kind of two main categories of, of of tool sets. The first is something called telemedicine, which, you know, imagine doing a video visit with your doctor where they can see you, You can see them and you talk about your symptoms or problems and, you know, they could prescribe you something. And that’s what a lot of people have thought innovation in health care is or it’s made up of through technology. There’s actually into many people’s surprise. There’s also and I would say a much larger category of innovation that we call digital health, which isn’t a video visit. It’s either a smartphone app that patients have access to. It could be the use of a Bluetooth or a cellular enabled medical device, like a blood pressure cuff, a blood glucometer or weight scale that you know, can connect directly to a doctor’s electronic medical record. And so all of these tools that aren’t video visits but can remote monitor a patient, can deliver through a chat, a kind of interaction or intervention. This is a very fast growing space in health care. And traditionally there’s been no reimbursement for those tools. So for digital tools, it’s very hard for doctors to get paid to give them to patients like a prescription or like telemedicine video visit, because not a lot of people really understand it. And, you know, I really think as we think about trying to solve the problems that we have here in the district, since there are very few doctors offices in Wards seven and eight, which are the very economically disadvantaged wards here in D.C., there actually are no hospitals and maternity hospitals in Wards seven and eight. So if someone wants to deliver, they have to cross town. So think of the cost of doing that. The time, you know, if there’s an issue, complications that could incur by having to wait so long. So we’ve been talking a lot about here in D.C. is a lot of work that I’ve been doing is how can we get these digital tools that can make care available at any time, any place? How do we make them more accessible? And how can you get doctors to give them more to their patients? And so, you know what? What we’ve been trying to work on and what we’ve been trying to enhance in this build the Maternal Health Care Improvement Extension Act is to create the first digital health mandate where insurance in the district would cover these new technologies like remote patient monitoring, so that we can start to give women care if they can’t see a doctor immediately. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:30] How would these particular services work outside of the D.C. area, or can it work outside the D.C. area? Juan Pablo Segura [00:13:37] I mean, I think there’s huge opportunity outside the D.C. area when you start to look at, for example, rural health care. Mm hmm. So what you’re seeing here in D.C. is there’s structural inequality and there’s structural kind of transportation barriers that are making it really hard for women to get the care they need. That further complicates the pregnancy rate. But, you know, you’re talking about smaller distances. Obviously, it’s very complex in a big city. But, you know, you’re not talking about miles or tens of miles of distance. You’re talking about a small area and you think about rural health care. 50% of counties in the United States lack a practicing OB-GYN. And that’s a really scary number. So when you look at, okay, well, women are pregnant and they have to drive 3 hours to get to the closest doctor. Think of, you know, how, for example, if there’s a blood pressure related issue, I don’t know how much you know about blood pressure problems, but blood pressure problems account for 10 to 15% of maternal deaths. And so when you think about, you know, a rising blood pressure that could be tied to something called preeclampsia, that could lead to a stroke and death, if women have to go see three, go to go travel 3 hours to just get a consultation with a doctor. There are huge issues in catching problems early, getting help when it’s needed. And so I think technology, especially digital health tools, have a big role in starting to address these big issues and moms getting the care they need. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:09] As you mentioned, you know, high blood pressure. I was also reading that, you know, heart disease and stroke. May be related to the infant’s death or the mom’s death sometime after after delivery. Juan Pablo Segura [00:15:23] Oh, absolutely. So there’s kind of a when you look at the maternity journey, there’s obviously the time that you’re pregnant, but there’s the time after you’re pregnant, the postpartum journey. And, you know, in many ways, the postpartum journey can be just as dangerous than the actual pregnancy. So, for example, the number one reason for postpartum readmission. So mom getting released from the hospital and then having to go back to the hospital after they deliver is blood pressure. It’s the number one reason blood pressure problems like preeclampsia somewhere. Where is the number one reason for maternal death is blood pressure in the postpartum time period. And so when you think about those issues and the fact that what if you were to give a mom a blood pressure cuff that has a Bluetooth or cellular chip inside, so every time they take their blood pressure, that data goes back to their doctor. And if something is wrong, the doctor can automatically know that the patient does have to call the doctor. They don’t have to do anything. That data automatically goes back to the doctor, and the doctor can obviously follow up, get the patient to come in, say, Hey, you’re not okay, come in now. And we’re talking about real life saving interventions. And, you know, that’s that’s what we focus on as a company or a baby scrubs. But we’re not the only ones. And, you know, we testified in front of the D.C. Council on Wednesday, And, you know, what we were sharing was the doctors. They know that these tools exist. They know that they can make a big impact. But the problem is no one pays for them from an insurance perspective. And the doctors just don’t have money to pay for these kinds of experiences. And so that’s why, you know, we have to start having insurance companies started covering these services because these are real life saving services that can also reduce costs, improve quality, and really make a huge impact in in all of our moms. So, yeah. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:23] That brings me to my next question with insurance companies, How do you are going about articulating the level of their involvement and as you say, reducing costs in the long term? Juan Pablo Segura [00:17:37] Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and this is it’s unfortunate that that, you know, we have to we have to put together a return on investment analysis to, you know, essentially what that has, you know, an internal rate of return or, you know, 100% of your money back kind of thing. It’s unfortunate that we have to do that to to get to get some kind of action or movement. And and so, you know, number one, the state of of of health care and how we make decisions I think is very broken. You know, we need to be doing the right things. And that’s taking care of our moms, especially our African-American moms. So, you know, I think that’s point number one. But what I’m seeing and there is a lot of change happening. You have some very early adopters that are doing some incredible work on the insurance side. A great example that someone I will applaud to the day I die is the CEO of America Health Care to us here in D.C.. Her name is Karen Dale and she has decided to reimburse these tools. Obviously, there isn’t a why, but she reimbursed these tools because it was the right thing to do for providers in Washington, DC. Now, that’s one insurance plan of many. And so we need to get the other ones to come in and start paying for this. But but I think the leadership of the more progressive and really intelligent, emotionally intelligent people that understand the problem and understand that there’s a need, you know, you’ll really see the improvements that will happen in those areas, but it’s still a very long wait to get these things reimbursed. I think we need a lot of awareness. There’s this whole concept called social determinants, and we know that it’s just not a, you know, a one visit with a doctor that will change the the outcome journey of a mom or of any patient for that matter. Right. When you start to look at where patients live, right, they’re geographies, access to healthy food that they might have or that they don’t have stable housing, access to transportation, all of these factors contribute to a patient’s overall and inevitable health. And so a lot of kind of traditional health care has never really focused on, you know, a patient living environment. They only ask, what’s your blood pressure? How much do you weigh and what’s your temperature? Right. And if everything checks out, it’s like, okay, good luck. You look great. Goodbye. When we know that, how can a mom have a healthy pregnancy If she doesn’t have healthy food? How can the mom have a healthy pregnancy? If, you know, she’s suffering from domestic violence. All of these things are contributors to preterm birth, for example. And so a lot of what we’re doing as a technology company is, yeah, we can remote monitor things like blood pressure or we can remove monitor things like weight or blood sugars to lead to better immediate interventions. We also have to start identifying some of these social determinant issues. So, for example, if a mom does have issues with transportation, our app actually will connect her to a free rideshare service through Lyft that will allow them to go see their doctor if they have issues with healthy food or not having access to healthy food. We actually ask those questions through the app and the response is not, okay, we’re going to help you. We actually immediately connect them to a program that, for example, America Health might reimburse for. So so, you know, as we look at building technology to make a direct impact to mom’s health and into the baby’s health, we know that we can’t just focus on one or two or three clinical factors. We have to start addressing all the environmental factors that she’s surrounded by. And, you know, when you start looking at the facts in in in the U.S. and in D.C., you know, for example, black women have they’re either have or are in an environment where seven times more likely to either smoke, they are six times more likely to be overweight. They obviously do have four times more likely this to have a preterm birth. And so when you start looking at the dynamics, I mean, it’s not just one visit to a doctor that’s going to make the ultimate impact. It’s all of these things together. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:22:00] When you look at what you all are doing, what are some of the steps the process happens when they come to you. Juan Pablo Segura [00:22:08] Or are you saying a patient, for example? John L. Hanson Jr. [00:22:10] Yes. Yeah, A patient, Yes. Juan Pablo Segura [00:22:12] Yeah. So? So our company is constantly evolving. So right now what happens with baby scrubs is if a patient goes and sees their doctor for the first time. Mm hmm. And it’s not all doctors right now. For example, in D.C., we only work with George Washington Medical Faculty Associates and MedStar. They’re the two largest health systems in the district. But there are a lot of other groups after these small practices, etc.. But when a patient does see one of our participating providers that are using baby scrubs don’t automatically get put on our app experience that has all this education connection, the resources. It actually in certain instances, we’ll have a bi directional chat that will help direct patients to specific resources in the community. And then if they’re at higher risk, we might give them what’s called a mommy kit that is a connected blood pressure cuff, for example, that allows us to remote monitor their blood pressure and alert the doctor if anything’s wrong. And so, yeah, like I mentioned, we work with 50 health systems across the country. And so we’re continuing to grow our footprint. But this really I think at the end of the day, patients should start to look at, okay, what tools is my provider offering to me so that I can have the best possible pregnancy outcome? And I do believe that groups like GW MedStar are first movers and really are leading the way in better treating their moms of color and obviously all moms that they serve as well. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:51] When looking at the number of maternity deaths. What is you also long term outcome to to reduce some of those numbers? Juan Pablo Segura [00:24:01] So we have something called a moonshot. And and this might sound a little kind of Elon Musk Tesla crazy space X but but I think it’s important to have a shining star. Our goal is by 2025 to eliminate every blood pressure related maternal death in the United States of America. And I believe that we can do that as a company. And if we do that, we can reduce the maternal death rate by at least 10%, probably more like 15%. And I would mention that nobody really talks about what’s called near-misses. So obviously, we track which moms die during their maternity journey or after their maternity journey. But very few people talk about what’s called near misses, which is say a mom believes too much and almost dies. She doesn’t die, but she might have an issue that that goes far beyond the pregnancy. Let’s say a mom gets a stroke, she doesn’t die, but she gets a stroke and is severely affected for the rest of her life, you know? And so in some estimates, for example, by the CDC. Five times. We have a five times rate of near-misses. So think of 70 moms die, but 200 and and, you know, around 250 to 300 moms, you know, are severely affected negatively after their pregnancy. And a lot of those near-misses are tied to blood pressure. So so again, I want there to be zero complications tied to blood pressure in this country. I think we can do it. We obviously need more health systems, more health insurance companies that want to participate in this journey and everyone benefits. And I think that’s that’s the case that we all have to make the providers deliver better care. Patients get better care, insurance companies get less complications. Guess how much a preterm birth costs? A breach of birth cost $250,000. If we can eliminate those kinds of complications, everyone wins, especially the insurance companies as well. So that’s our shining star. Well, once we hit that one, that moonshot, well, we’ll do another moonshot and eliminate all maternal deaths. You know, I don’t know how much one company can do, but we’re going to try our best. But that’s definitely what we’re shooting. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:28] For before we run out of time. Juan Pablo, we’ve been talking about the physical aspects of pregnancy, but we have yet to talk about the psychological changes just brought on by pregnancy that can be exacerbated by underlying health problems. Juan Pablo Segura [00:26:44] Oh, I mean, absolutely. I mean, something that is now getting a lot of attention is something like postpartum depression. 50% of women suffer, 40 to 50% of women suffer from a kind of a category called the Baby blues. So it’s not necessarily severe depression, but it’s a change in mood. It’s it’s not a positive experience. And then when you start looking at actual depression, you know, we will see numbers one of eight women suffer from from severe postpartum depression. So when you start looking at these numbers and the fact that we’re all you know, it’s not just, you know, number one, we have to we have to give women the care and the resources they need right now. When you look at the structure of pregnancy, women see the doctor six weeks after their postpartum visit. They get 15 minutes, 15 minutes to dissect and unpack the huge change that’s happened in their life. They now have a screaming baby at home. Their partner might be helping or not helping. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:45] Juan Pablo Segura, co-founder of the Washington, DC based Babyscripts. If you have questions, comments or suggestions about the future In Black America programs, email us at In Black America educated that org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard is over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at Kuchi that ohaji. Until we had the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing In Black America CDs, KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keaton St., Austin, Texas 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio. The post Juan Pablo Segura (Ep. 14, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. discusses the career of legendary photographer Ernest C. Withers with Richard Cahan, author of Revolution in Black and White: Photographs of the Civil Rights Era by Ernest C. Withers. Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. Richard Cahan [00:00:23] The pictures that he took from the 1942 to 1968. They were really documenting the movement. They were documenting the dream. And it ended with, you know, the assassination of Martin Luther King. And obviously, the movement continued. But times changed. His cameras changed him. He moved on to a 35 millimeter camera and took mostly color film. So it’s a whole nother look at, you know, there’s a there’s a beauty to this, you know, classic black and white photography. He really knew what he was doing. And and I think the pictures after that, not that they don’t have value, but they don’t have the drama. That’s why we really took the whole collection. And we said, what’s the most important message he had? And that message, I think, was kind of the the beauty of resistance, the resilience that African-Americans had during these decades. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:11] Richard Cahan, author of Revolution in Black and White photographs of the Civil Rights Era by Ernest C Withers, published by City Files Press. It was a self-made man. He was one of the most prominent African-American photographers during the civil rights years. During the course of his career. He took thousands of photographs that documented the movement from the Emmett Till trial in 1955 to the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr in 1968. What started out as a way to support his family turned into a pictorial history of life in the South and the epic events that helped shape this nation. Whether it was there for the Little Rock school battle. He was there for Medgar Evers funeral and the Memphis sanitation workers strike. He was also there to photograph weddings, high school proms and nightlife on Beale Street. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America on this week program Revolution in Black and White photographs of the civil rights era by Ernest C. Withers with author Richard Cahan In Black America. Richard Cahan [00:02:17] That is very true. People really, you know, talk a lot in Memphis about the kind of the honor of being photographed by whites, whether it was by whether he was, in a sense, you know, came to their house when they were just photographed. And I think that that, you know, he he had a lot of self-confidence in himself. He always, you know, positioned himself right directly in front of his subjects. He certainly had the skill because he had done this for so many years, so many decades. And he made the scene, you know, he you know, an event wasn’t even an event in listeners whether he was there. So in a sense, people waited for him. There’s so many smiles in this book. They are so pleased that he’s that they’re being photographed such a different time than today when, you know, you know, when you when so many people are weary about being photographed, they don’t want to be photographed. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:07] You know, when owners see. Withers began his photographing career in his hometown of Memphis, Tennessee. He couldn’t go to the public libraries or be admitted to his best hospitals. Had it not been for his sister who gave him his first camera while he was in high school. We can only imagine what life would have been like for him, whether it is the genes behind many of the iconic photos we see today documenting the civil rights era. Besides his work with the moment he recorded on film The Everyday World in the south of African-Americans, proms, funerals, people where work and play and street life, he created a stunning record of what it was like to live in Memphis and the Mid-South. He also was a noted baseball photographer documenting Negro League Baseball. He also was a noted music photographer taking thousands of photographs of early jazz, blues, rock and roll and R&B performers. With his work is archived in the Library of Congress and is slated for the permanent collection of the Sony Institution’s National Museum of African American History and Culture. Recently In Black America spoke with Richard Cahan here regarding this amazing photojournalist. Richard Cahan [00:04:17] They call my colleague Michael Williams and I. They call us photo historians, which is a term we never even heard before. We we were called it. We were both photojournalists and I was what’s called the picture editor. So I work with photographers and photographs. And and I learned that there’s a lot of impact that words and pictures can can have when they’re work together. And I think we’ve all learned that now, you know, try to put up a Facebook post without a picture and you’ll realize how important pictures are. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:46] And in your previous life, you a program officer at a foundation. Richard Cahan [00:04:51] I was for a short time, but most of my life has been as a photojournalist. I worked for the Chicago Sun-Times for six years and I worked for newspapers most of my life. I was a journalist down at I put journalist down on my iris. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:04] I know. That’s right. So what sparked that initial interest in photojournalism? Richard Cahan [00:05:08] Well, I actually it’s it’s a long story. But to make it very short, I, I became. I’m interested in the idea of words and pictures working together. I think I was a kid and I went to the library and I got a Jackie Kennedy book about a tour of the White House. And I realized that through pictures, you can go anywhere in the world and with words, you can explain it all. So, uh, it was exciting to me then, and it still is now, six decades later. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:37] Is your alma mater the school that beat Michigan the other day? Richard Cahan [00:05:40] It is. It is. And it’s a school that has almost beaten several other top basketball teams. I’ll believe it when I see it. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:48] I have to say. How did you happen to come across Ernest Withers? Richard Cahan [00:05:52] I was down in Memphis and a friend of mine said I had to go see the Withers museum. There’s a little museum at the end of Beale Street that’s run by Roslyn Withers, who’s the daughter of Ernest Withers, and she keeps this little photo museum open till about midnight so that people who listen to music and drink on Beale Street can kind of end up there. And as she says, people come into the museum drunk and they oftentimes leave sober because they see these photographs, which is which are really great gifts to America, of photographs of the civil rights movement and photographs of entertainers and photographs of the end of Negro League baseball that Ernest Withers took starting in the 1940s. And he continued almost up until his death in 2007. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:40] How did Ernest become interested in photography? Richard Cahan [00:06:43] Well, he was actually it was during World War Two, and he was on the he was stationed in the Pacific Islands, and he found that if he took pictures of GI’s standing in front of bushes and holding their guns, that they loved it and they sent it back home. And he realized that there was really a business of taking pictures. And as soon as he got out of the Army in 1946, he started his own business. And and really, this is a book of somebody who was really hungry, hungry to make a living. He had eight children and he took on just about any assignment. You know, he was the that’s really one of the things that makes him unusual. He was the school photographer. He photographed proms. He was at funerals. He’d wake up every Sunday morning and go to churches and photograph churches. And and as he kept doing it decade after decade, he realized that he was really just as much of a historian as he was a photographer. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:39] I was interested in in reading that his entree prior to taking pictures of the servicemen when he went to the Pacific, he was there to photograph the construction of a runway or airport, or right? Richard Cahan [00:07:50] Yeah, right. That was his job. He was a photographer and he was documenting things for the the Army Corps of photographers that were out there in the Pacific. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:00] Now, one would think that if you’re a photographer, you got all this elaborate equipment. But he didn’t have that. Richard Cahan [00:08:05] He didn’t. He uh, number one, I don’t think he could afford it. And, you know, he had camera little very simple cameras. I mean, they’re not simple by today’s standards, but they were there were box cameras that I remember. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:18] I remember. Richard Cahan [00:08:19] Yeah. That took little two and a quarter negatives. And he always talked about how he never could afford long lenses, you know, telescopic lenses. So his feet were his long lens. If he needed to get a close up, he walked up to people. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:31] Tell us about the story when when Joe Louis, his wife, came to his school and he was the others, do they tend to go up to take a picture? Richard Cahan [00:08:39] Yeah, he was in he was in elementary school and he had just gotten a camera from his sister, his sister’s boyfriend, who had given him a camera. And, uh, this is Louis was at the school and he had the camera, and again, he didn’t have a telephoto lens, so he had no choice but to just walk down the aisle, go right up to the front and take a picture. And I think everybody was shocked that he had that nerve. And he loved the kind of the good feeling that it came from, you know, from being able the camera gave him kind of a an entree, you know, to anywhere he wanted to go in the world. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:13] Richard now, he photographed over 60 years worth of work, Right. How did you decide on what to include in this book? Is this part one? Richard Cahan [00:09:25] You know, I don’t think so. I’ll tell you why. Because the pictures that he took from the 1940s to 1968, they were really documenting the movement. They were documenting the dream. And it ended with, you know, the assassination of Martin Luther King. And obviously the movement continued. But times changed. His cameras changed. He moved on to a 35 millimeter camera and took mostly color film. So it’s a whole nother look at, you know, there’s there’s a beauty to this, you know, classic black and white photography. He really knew what he was doing. And and I think the pictures after that, not that they don’t have value, but they don’t have the drama. That’s why we really took the whole collection. And we said, what’s the most important message he had? And that message, I think, was kind of the beauty of resistance, the resilience that African-Americans had, you know, during these decades. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:21] How did you decide on the titles of the different chapters of photographs? Richard Cahan [00:10:25] Oh, well, there there are nine chapters, and each chapter is a is a song title of, uh, usually a popular rhythm and blues song or blues song. And, and we just had made a list of civil rights songs, and they all seemed to fit, you know, these sections of the book. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:42] Talk to us about when Ernest really got his calling to become a photojournalist when he started working for The Chicago Defender. Richard Cahan [00:10:50] Yea so, so he started Ernest Started is really just a commercial photographer. Right. He was there’s a great story that he used to go on Sunday mornings to Negro League baseball games at Martin Stadium, and he would take pictures instead of taking pictures of the the action, he would take pictures of the crowd because everybody got dressed up. This was like Easter every Sunday morning was like Easter. And and everyone looked really good. And he’d rush home to his studio. He’d process the film, he’d make prints. His wife would drive the prints in their oven. And then he rushed back to the ballpark before the game ended so that he could sell those prints. And that, you know, I think the key to him, to Ernest, was that he was willing to take on just about any assignment. So in the early 1950s, when when Negro newspapers were really an essential part of of the community, he was getting jobs with, you know, the Tri-State Defender, the Chicago Defender, other newspapers, where he was realizing that they didn’t have a white papers. Usually they relied on the Associated Press to send pictures. And he, in a sense, became his own press service. So he would take pictures of a basketball game or a graduation. And then he would you know, there were there were several dozen, you know, Negro newspapers in those days. And he would send them to all the newspapers, and that helped him make a living. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:12:13] When did he first photograph Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.? Richard Cahan [00:12:16] It was in 1950, uh, 1956. Mm hmm. It was one year after Rosa Parks refused to sit down and there was a yearlong boycott. And on the morning that they boycott in the morning that this case was settled and the boycott ended, he was on one of the first books, one of the first busses in Montgomery, and he was he literally waited for Martin Luther King and Ralph Abernathy to take a seat. About an hour or two later, as they rode the busses up front for the first time. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:12:46] How did he develop a kinship with with the movement and Dr. King? Richard Cahan [00:12:50] You know, I think it was just that he was always there. Withers was often called the official photographer, Martin Luther King’s official photographer, and that really wasn’t true. They liked each other. But, you know, King didn’t have the money to really pay somebody. So it was really that that whenever King was in Memphis, whenever King was anywhere near Memphis, Withers was always there. He wasn’t the official photographer, but they were very close. Andrew Young, who I know you’ve had on your program many times, he talks a lot and in introduction about how important Withers work was in spreading the spreading the word. I guess it’s the visual word, you know what what it all looked like. And he was very appreciative. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:31] I know. That’s right. If you’re just joining us, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and you’re listening to In Black America from KUT Radio. And we’re speaking with Richard Cahan, author of Revolution in Black and White Photographs of the Civil Rights Era by Ernest Withers. Richard, in looking at the photographs of Mr. Withers work, there seemed to be a distinction that I guess he developed over time to make his photographs of those well, that when and Withers photographs was taken, you know, it was the Withers photograph. Richard Cahan [00:14:07] That is very true. People really, you know, talk a lot in Memphis about the kind of the honor of being photographed by Withers, whether it was by whether he was, in a sense, you know, came to their house when they were just photographed. And I think that that, you know, he he had a lot of self-confidence in himself. He always, you know, positioned himself right directly in front of his subjects. He certainly had the skill because he had done this for so many years, so many decades. And he made the scene, you know, he you know, an event wasn’t even an event unless interest Withers was there. So in a sense, people waited for him. There’s so many smiles in this book. They’re so pleased that he’s that they’re being photographed such a different time than today when, you know, you know, when you would when so many people are weary about being photographed, they don’t want to be photographed. You know. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:00] You’re right. Obviously, this was a dangerous job when he was out photographing the movement. How do you develop that tenaciousness? Richard Cahan [00:15:08] Well, he likes to say that he learned a lot of it in World War Two is as a soldier. But he was very aware of it. He was roughed up a couple of times, once at the end of Medgar Evers funeral. The police just, you know, got his cameras threw him in almost like a cage. Him and a lot of other people. He was spit out a lot, he said. And, you know, he was he wasn’t a large man, but he he was he had played football in high school. He was a quarterback. So, you know, like all quarterbacks, he kind of knew where to move and he knew how to protect himself. And, you know, he he wasn’t too worried. But it took an awful lot of courage. You know, he really developed moves. Oftentimes, a white writer or journalist would come down to the south and Ernest Withers would be not only his chauffeur, but really his eyes and ears to get him through the south. And the same held true with Black for Black journalists who came down from Jet or Ebony and, you know, didn’t know the ways of the South. This is where he grew up. And he really understood a lot of the kind of the mores of of how to how to conduct yourself. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:15] I’m glad you mentioned that because I kind of skipped over. But you brought this full circle back to me when he first started taking photographs for the Black press. I’m trying to remember the newspaper he went to work for, and he was under that editor, a publisher’s tool, which for a while, right? Richard Cahan [00:16:33] Right. Well, it was. You’re thinking of Alex. Uh, Alex. Alex. I’m thinking of Wilson. Uh. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:40] I think it was Wilson. Richard Cahan [00:16:41] Yeah. Yeah. L Alex Wilson, right. People will know Alex Wilson because he was the very tall journalist who was punched and kicked around right at the Little Rock. And that was that. It was the night of that that was on TV that Eisenhower said he was going to send paratroopers out there. And Wilson was a big man and a really smart man. And you could tell how, you know, you know, he was just ganged up on. They they they kicked his you know, they they kicked him. They pushed his head off into the streets. And and Wilson, who was a former Marine. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:15] Refused to run. Exactly. Richard Cahan [00:17:17] And and Withers was supposed to be there that day. And he just by assignment, he was in, uh, he was in Memphis and not in Little Rock. And he did a lot of photography of the of the Little Rock Nine. And Wilson was really the man. He was with them when King and Abernathy got on the bus in 1956. And Withers really respected him. They had a lot. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:38] About journalism from exactly their other pictorial books out there. What makes this particular book special? Richard Cahan [00:17:45] You know, I think we use the photographs to set up history. I, I, I, I’m not a Southerner. And so a lot of this was new to me. And, and, and frankly, it was really eye opening. I and we we use photographs to tell the story of the integration of, say, the Memphis Public Library, the integration of the Memphis pools using first graders in 1961 to integrate Memphis public schools, which was pretty 13 first graders were used to to to break the color barrier. You know, you talk about the bravery of Jackie Robinson. Well, you can imagine the bravery of these first graders and their parents. Right. And and so it’s not so much a portfolio. When you open the book, you see about 250 photographs and you think it’s just going to be one of those big, beautiful portfolios. But there’s every picture let us on an adventure. And we really tracked down each picture and set it in context. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:45] Now, on the front and back inside, there is a picture of Andrew Young and then the first photograph of the book itself, there’s Andrew Young. Why those photographs? Richard Cahan [00:18:56] Well, in it, Withers died in 2007, and in 2011, it was revealed that Withers was a paid FBI informant. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:19:04] Okay. Richard Cahan [00:19:05] And in some ways, to some people like Dick Gregory, it made Withers a traitor. Mm hmm. But other people who knew Withers and who understood the times. It’s it’s it’s it’s much more nuanced. You know, he’s a it’s 1959. He’s a photographer in Memphis, and the FBI comes to him and says, we want pictures. How number one, how do you say no to the FBI? Right. Number two, it wasn’t clear. Yeah. At that time, a Hoover’s hatred of King and the movement was not clear in 1959. So it wasn’t like you were just switching sides. And Withers wrote in 2001 that the FBI had been following him for years. He didn’t say he was a paid informant. And he said he really tried to never get himself into, you know, controversial, secretive moments. And Andrew Young, who’s a big defender of Withers, said basically we had no secrets to hide. There was nothing to really divulge. And if Withers took photographs and told people where events were, it was okay with him. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:06] And you also write that Withers said that he may he made a habit of not being where decisions were being spoken about during his time with with the movement. Richard Cahan [00:20:18] Exactly. He you know, Withers was a smart guy and he knew what he was doing. Now, that doesn’t take away the feelings that other people have had over the years that Withers, you know, betrayed them because they simply didn’t know what his dual role was. And I understand that on a personal level. But, you know, Withers, Withers you know, I don’t think his involvement with the FBI affects these pictures in the least and whether he should have been or shouldn’t have been. I don’t think we can really judge him because he’s not around to really stand up and defend himself. And, you know, it’s not as clear as it might seem at first. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:57] All right. You also talk about whether he had nine children. Richard Cahan [00:21:02] Eight children. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:02] Eight children, and one was involved in an accident out in California. And Isaac Hayes did a benefit concert to bring them back to Memphis. Richard Cahan [00:21:12] Exactly. And Isaac Hayes paid for. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:16] Tutor said he. Richard Cahan [00:21:17] Taught me to write to head out to California and bring them back in on a special plane. You know, you I think people in Memphis understand this, but obviously, outside of Memphis, they have no idea how Withers was absolutely beloved, beloved by the entertainment community, beloved by the sports community. And and this is the guy that was. If you go on to, you know, Legacy.com and you read those comments afterwards, that’s how the book actually starts, that people write about somebody after they die. Oh, my gosh. He was just one you know, he was just always there. He was the guy that was, you know, photographing in the schools. And everyone, you know, really did love him and care about him. So it you know, there’s no question it was a shock when these revelations came out. But I think that if he was alive, he’d have a a good we would better understand what happened. You know, remember, Withers really also didn’t say no to the photo assignments. He was a photographer. This is what he did. You know, the school board wants the picture of the graduation. He says yes. You know, Jet magazine wants him to, you know, fly down or not fly down. But to drive down to Sumner, Mississippi, to photograph the Emmett Till trial in 1955. He said yes. And he ended up paying I think he got paid something like $75 for a week of work. But he just was somebody that wasn’t going to say no, because I think he loved it. He absolutely everybody he photographed, he knew he knew their uncle, their aunt, their family members. He was a really important part of this community in Memphis. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:22:48] Yeah. You also write about on the day that his dad died, he went to the funeral that day and did had an assignment later on that evening. Richard Cahan [00:22:57] He did. He never he never shirked an assignment. His kids, who all love him and know him, but they also know that that their father’s first uh, I won’t say first love, but loyalty was work. Right. This is how, how their family survives. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:14] Now, we skipped the part that in early in his career, he did some little law enforcement. Richard Cahan [00:23:19] Right. Right. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:20] And it was fired. Richard Cahan [00:23:22] Yes. He was one of the he was one of Memphis’s first African-American patrol officers. And in those days, if you were Black, you could not arrest a white person. You could not carry a gun. And supposedly he was fired because he was bootlegging liquor. It’s hard to know, you know. You know, he says there was a jealous lieutenant. I have no idea. But, you know, he he. I’ll say this. I think that Withers was a hustler, but in the good sense of the word, he was trying to get ahead in life. And and that was just that’s that’s that’s one of the reasons why we have these photographs. The man who created a couple of million photographs because he never said no to an assignment. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:03] Also, you have pictures of Elvis Presley in there. Richard Cahan [00:24:06] Yeah. Yeah. You know, Elvis Presley was certainly an important part of the Memphis music scene. And I think Elvis Presley made it pretty clear that he he learned a lot of his moves and a lot of his music from the African-American the Beale Street crowd. And he hung around. Oftentimes, there’s a picture of him at the Goodwill Revue, which was a radio station, his annual fundraising event in a 1956. Elvis was a big man in the white and African-American community. And there’s a picture of him just milling around with some young teenage, you know, performers. You can see them swooning for him. It’s funny. Elvis used to shop at a place called Lansky’s in Memphis, and the owner of it told Ernest that he should only photograph Elvis Presley, that that he would become a millionaire today if he had only photographed Elvis Presley. And I think he’s probably right. But who knew then? And I’m glad that Ernest Withers, you know, photographed other things because we probably have enough pictures of Elvis Presley. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:06] I know. That’s right. When you went back to Memphis to talk about Ernest, what was the reaction? Richard Cahan [00:25:11] Oh, it was great. We had a book launch last month. And people were thrilled to finally see these pictures all put together in one place. I mentioned Ernest’s daughter, Roz. Right. She she still runs this museum. And you can see many of these pictures in the museum. But for all the people that can’t come down to the weather Collection museum, they have this chance to see, you know, a whole life devoted to photography. And and and it’s really and a lot of these pictures, Roz, and many other people have never seen before, because we got a chance to go back to the negatives and print these right from the negatives. So things that that Ernest himself probably had never seen before because he never made prints of a lot of it. You know, he was he was out getting another job. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:54] When you had an opportunity to to review some of the photos. Did you have an aha moment? Richard Cahan [00:26:02] Oh, boy. I think I had a lot and you know, I had a lot of them. I thought the picture of that I mentioned of young Martin Luther King in 1956, sitting in the front seat with Ralph Abernathy is really an important photo. There’s another great photo of Moses Wright. Emmett Till’s great uncle. And he’s standing up in court. And I’ve read about this before. What a courageous move a Black man had never really accused, pointed at white people for a capital crime. And he stood up and he he points to the two men that were accused of the crime and Withers, who wasn’t supposed to take a picture, but he was he was in the front row holding his camera and he took a picture of of right standing up and, oh, my gosh, the this moment of bravery. And I’m so happy it was captured by somebody. And of course, it was Ernest Withers. He’s kind of like the Forest Gump, you know, no matter what happened, he was always there. And that’s that’s incredible. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:01] When looking at some of the photographs, I was particularly enamored with the one that had Dr. King arriving in Memphis. Richard Cahan [00:27:09] Yeah. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:10] Just before. Well, it was it was the day before the assassination. Richard Cahan [00:27:14] April 3rd, 1960, right? Yeah, It’s a it’s kind of a simple photo. But, you know, like everything else, when you look back at some photos, you you see it filled with kind of pathos. And interestingly, and this is kind of a a secret of the book, but that night, Martin Luther King gave the famous Mountaintop speech. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:36] Exactly. Richard Cahan [00:27:36] And we looked for pictures and Ernest was not there. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:40] Richard Cahan, author of Revolution in Black and White Photographs of the Civil Rights Era, about Earnest Withers, published by City Files Press. If you have questions, comments or suggestions as your future In Black America programs, email us at In Black America at kut.org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program and not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing to In Black America CD’s, KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keeton, Austin, TX 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio. The post Richard Cahan (Ep. 13, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents a conversation with the late George E. Curry, formerly Editor-in-Chief of Emerge Magazine. Curry was a staunch champion of the Black Press until his death in August, 2016. The post The Late George Curry (Ep. 12, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents a 2015 interview with ground-breaking and record-setting NBA legend Spencer Haywood. Haywood was inducted into The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame in September 2015. The post Spencer Haywood (Ep. 11, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

On this week’s In Black America program, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents a 1983 interview with the legendary singer, dancer, actress and Civil Rights activist, who died in 2010 after a film, television and theater career that spanned 70 years. The post Lena Horne (Ep. 10, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents an interview recorded in 2013 with the late Dr. Timothy M. George, who passed away in November 2019. Dr. George had been Medical Director of the Pediatric Neurosurgery Center of Central Texas at Dell Children’s Medical Center in Austin, Texas. Intro Music [00:00:01] This is an archive edition of an interview with Dr. Timothy M. George. Dr. George died on November 10th, 2019. He was 59. Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:00:22] I don’t look at myself as being this big person. I don’t think I am. You know, one great thing about going to New York, you learn you’re never the dumbest, you never the smartest, you never the ugliest but you never the prettiest either. You never the shortest, but you never the tallest. So one thing I like to say, I look at myself as being a normal person. And also I knew growing up that normal people weren’t doing the things that I’m doing today, that wasn’t in the cards. So I really wanted to be able to show that, you know, a normal person like me and nothing different anybody else can do these things. So if I can do it, you and you can do these things also. So that was really my drive to be a part of it. I don’t look at myself as being this enigma or a superstar. I think too often in the media, you know, I think Blacks are often, you know, the ones who do so well are either they seem to be special, almost like super gods, something above and beyond normal people. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:20] Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D., medical director of the Pediatric Neurosurgery Center of Central Texas Dell Children’s Medical Center, located in Austin, Texas. In 2006, Dr. George moved to Austin from Durham, North Carolina, where he was the associate professor of neurosurgery, pediatric and neurobiology at Duke University. Joining Children’s Hospital of Austin as chief of surgery and pediatric neurosurgery center of central Texas. He brings his breadth of knowledge and expertise in pediatric neurosurgeon as he’s develop and oversee pediatric neurosurgeon programs at the hospital. Dr. George has always been fascinated with the human body and science, but he admits that it was a long time before he connected the fascination of becoming a physician with the help of his basketball coach. He was fortunate to be recruited by several universities to play basketball, but decided to attend Columbia University because others said he couldn’t get in. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. And welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D., chief of pediatric neurosurgery at Dell Children’s Medical Center, In Black America. Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:02:33] I grew up really in the sixties, so I have a sixties heart and mentality. So when I was applying for colleges, I always had interest in medicine. I did. I had pretty good scores on my SATs. But yeah, when I was in high school, my guidance counselor, I’m not going to mention her name, So my guidance counselor would encourage me. Well, I know you’re interested in either do one of two things, use the basketball connections to get recruited someplace, or maybe you may think about physical therapy or some allied health profession. I think I got sort of pissed off and said, No, I my goal, I think I could be a doctor. I think I can help people. I really didn’t know what it all meant to do that, but I felt I could do it. And I said, No, I’m going to go for it. So my basketball coach actually helped me out by doing two things. One, he only allowed colleges to recruit me that were really strong academically that could get me there. He you know, I would love to play for UCLA. I may not have been good enough. I don’t know, but it didn’t matter. I wasn’t gonna get recruited by them anyway because he was going to block them. But if it was Johns Hopkins or if it was Holy Cross or if it was even Wake Forest, he would allow those schools to talk to me. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:44] Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D., has more than 22 years experience in neurological surgery. He completed his medical training at New York University. His residency in neurosurgery at Yale University School of Medicine and his pediatric fellowship at Children’s Memorial Hospital in Chicago. Born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, his childhood was no different from those in the neighborhood. He believes the difference between himself today and the guys you grew up with lies not in his talent, skill, intellectual ability or sense of community, but in a direction he embraced. That direction was derived from his father. Though his father, Plummer had only an eighth grade education, he took care of his neighbors needs. He looked after the well-being of the guys who worked for him. Many times his father would work until the evening or on weekends to help provide extra money for his workers so they could provide for their own children. Dr. George developed an interest in pediatrics while still in high school work with disabled children, made him realize that there were children that had problems worse than he is. Attending Columbia University was a rite of passage. His self-worth was challenged as he went to class with students from the upper crust of society. Through it all, he learned something about himself. He had the right stuff. Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:05:00] I have an old soul. I really even I was born in 1965 or a soul, probably a little older. So I was sort of really I grew up really in the sixties, so I have a sixties heart and mentality. So when I was applying for colleges, I always had interest in medicine. I did. I had pretty good scores on my PSATs and SATs and. But yeah, when I was in high school, my guidance counselor, I’m not going to mention her name, so my guidance counselor would encourage me. Well, I know you’re interested in either do one of two things, use the basketball connections, and give recruiting someplace. Or maybe you may think about physical therapy or some allied health profession. I think I got sort of pissed off and said, no, in my goal. I think I could be a doctor. I think I can help people. I really didn’t know what it all meant to do that, but I felt I could do it. And I said, no, I’m going to go for it. So my basketball coach actually helped me out by doing two things. One, he only allowed colleges to recruit me that were really strong academically that could get me there. He you know, I would love to play for UCLA. I may not have been good enough. I don’t know, but it didn’t matter. I wasn’t gonna get recruited by them anyway because he was going to block them. But if it was Johns Hopkins or if it was Holy Cross or if it was even Wake Forest, he would allow those schools to talk to me. And then after that ended up, I end up going to Columbia University ultimately. And the reason was that my guidance counselor told me, You never get into Columbia. So I had try to I’m getting pissed off and I applied anyway. My coach actually signed my letter on my recommendation letter because she wouldn’t sign it. And somehow I got in and the rest is history. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:43] Your guidance counselor wouldn’t sign the… Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:06:45] She just thought I would be in for a big disappointment. In over my head I just didn’t feel that way. And neither did he. And he just said, well, look, if it doesn’t work, it’s not going to work. So my attitude was not going to work, I’m okay with that. Even when I went to school, I said, well, if it doesn’t work, I’m okay with that, but I’m just going to put my best foot forward and see what happens. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:07] As you say that, you know, one would want to become a physician, but once you get to school, tell us about that process. And was there any point that you said, well, maybe I’m maybe in over my head and maybe this was not really a good decision to make? Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:07:25] Yeah, but when I first went out there for the interview, my father took me up there and this was in New York City, and I grew up around the city my entire life, but it’s a totally different world. I never really experienced that world before. So as I walked on campus, I could feel it was palpable. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:40] Under the arch, That big arch? Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:07:42] Oh, yes. And then I walked out of college, walk between the big low library up the steps, I felt, and I was entering a whole new world. My interview was amazing. I remember my interview like it was yesterday because the building, the gist of the interview was our goals are to help you teach you how to think and be a leader. And I was saying everything like, Oh, I want to do is learn how to think and be a leader. That’s what our exchange was. And it clicked. When I got there, I came in and was introduced a whole new culture of people. I mean, I never really, on a daily basis, even knew people who went to some of these elite boarding schools in the Northeast and or or whose families were worth millions and billions. And so, again, sort of reflecting back to my early days and growing up, I wasn’t afraid of that because I always zero base. I decided, oh, we’re all here. I guess we all figure out how to work together. But there were times where I felt like I knew I had to learn a lot more about them than they had to learn about me. And I had to adapt and learn how to deal with them, but still maintain who I was as a person. So I adapted to that a bit and a couple of ways. I have to admit I ended up playing basketball there, but also I also no one knew I was pre-med. I sort of kept that behind because it was such a culture of aggressiveness for the pre-med at Columbia that I didn’t want to get caught up into that little bit of a rat race where 60% of the kids were pre-med at Columbia when I was there. That was very competitive, very smart kids, and I didn’t want to get caught into that. And so I guess I dealt with it by not being caught up into the rat race part of it. But I still was there. They still saw me in organic chemistry and and people really I think it really sunk in probably in my junior year when I finally took my MCATS. They were like, You’re really pre-med. Really I am. But I always did everything about staying. I just didn’t want to get caught up into that part. I guess that’s how I coped with my own internal potential, even fear of failure. I didn’t want to put myself out there too much and maintain elements of me because it was it was a cultural awakening for me to be there. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:00] How did your partners treat you? Were they encouraging towards you in completing his goal? Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:10:06] My friends, yeah. And oh, again, I’ve lived a blessed life. My friends have. They would not just encouraging, they would come up and hang out with me and I’d. Go out and see them sometime. And but people would really totally support me. I mean, to the point that we had a good time. I also found, you know, we did some partying at Columbia. It wasn’t just all stuff. We had a good time. I was I became a little bit of a deejay there, so I hooked up. I also was fortunate. I said, I think I’ve been looked after. So a friend of mine I used to play basketball against. We were in junior high. We competed again in the city championship in junior high, and I missed them for four years. And he shows up on Columbia’s campus, walk across college, walk. And I look at him. We nicknamed him JC because he could jump. He was five, nine could jump as we ever said, Jesus Christ. So. So we nicknamed him JC and I walked across and I look JC, what are you doing here? And I didn’t think I see anybody I ever knew. Right. And I think that was a big help for me because we just clicked and we were best you know, we were just best friends. Who’s going to Columbia undergrad? And I think that was another coping thing. So then we both clicked and the world of our friends, an extension into Brooklyn and more in the New York area just exploded. And I never felt isolated because of that, too. And we were we were just brothers ever since and this is amazing. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:35] Of all the specialties to select, why neurosurgery? Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:11:39] Well, I’ve always really you know, I guess probably initially it was picked on. I did say what I told you. My mother told me I didn’t think about brain transplants. I did see kids who had really more neurological problems. Most of the mental and physically handicapped kids were really cause some something affecting the nervous system. And then also I just had an interest about the brain. I always wanted to understand, I guess, what made people tick, the soul. I felt the soul had to be housed somewhere up there. And so I figured one day I’d have a chance to figure out how the soul was integrated into this physical thing called a brain, but then also realized I learned scientifically over the years, you know, a little bit in high school and definitely in college about the nervous system I just really just became enamored with is its its its potential as a as a as an organ, but also a relative lack of understanding of what it did. And I thought, well, hey, this is a great growth opportunity to learn more because we don’t know everything about the brain. It’s the most complicated organ. And I felt that there was so many things to learn and everything. When I was there, when I was initially a student, everything was so new about our understanding of the brain function that I felt I was just on the edge of something new. And and it was exciting. It wasn’t just old. Information was always new. Every year, every couple of years. It was always something new about it. My great professors that instilled that way of thinking about the brain and that that’s one thing that piqued my interest on the nervous system. And neurosurgery, I think, is another thought. I really always thought that neurosurgery, because again, I was having to do a brain transplant, surgeons to do that. So I had to do it. But also, I think that as I got exposed to it, the surgical part, it was so direct. You had a chance to really make a direct effect on how the nervous system function. And I had great mentors who, you know, when I got to know some neurosurgeons later on more, and that’s medical school. They really were. We had one great one when I was in New York University. He really has such a great personality. He loved the patients. He loved the kids. He was a pediatric neurosurgeon. That was when I was there, pediatric neurosurgeon. He was a new discipline, really been around really for him for a couple of years. And and he really loved kids. He embraced them, but he was a pioneer. And and he also embraced me as a person who really allowed me to get close to it. Not just your student corner. I know you’re here. You’re one of my partners now. He would introduce me like I was one of the doctors with, and I get a chance to be with the families and kids just like him. So he really showed me what it was like. And I think that had a large impact. Clearly, what drove me to neurosurgery. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:21] What intrigues you the most? The process of trying to figure out what’s wrong with children, because children at that age really can’t express what they’re feeling or what’s wrong with them. Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:14:34] What what intrigued me most about kids was that they just a lot of disease of nervous system are devastating to them in their lives and to their families. The thing that intrigued me most was how amazing they did in spite of the odds being against them. I felt like, wow, instead of adults who are just complaining and whining all the time, these kids embraced that. Their families rallied behind them, and I just could always rally behind that. So as far as really came down to taking care of those kids, they were amazing. Whether they had tumors of the brain, bad nerve injuries, strokes, whether they had some something congenital or something they were born with that affected them in their lives. Kids running around in wheelchairs. All their lives. Who would do a more amazing things? And I knew people who were totally, you know, totally fit physically. And yet they’ve been dealing with this their entire lives. I mean, and that gave me something to rally for and how to families embrace them and how, you know, if they saw me having a bad day today, why don’t you smile? I hear these kids devastated and then worry more about how I’m doing. Come on, I’ll hold your hand. You need to be cheered up. And later on in my life, as I became a champ, a little bit came more in practice, had kids show up. And I guess maybe they thought I was overburdened because this is a hard job and a hard life and maybe they would see me. I had kids come to my clinic or office visits with and in costumes because they wanted to cheer me up. They wanted to make sure I was having a good day. Just have fun. Never go off to see other kids. But they wanted to make sure they showed me so I would be a part of it. So when you have that spirit and that heart behind it, I rally behind it. I think I got I always say sometimes I think I get more out of it than I give to them. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:19] Were you practicing physician when you were at Duke University when you were associate professor? Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:16:23] Yes. Yes, I was. That was a job I took after all my training and after the many years of, you know, medical school of college, medical school, residencies and fellowship. So you get specific training in pediatric component of neurosurgery. And then I went on and joined the faculty at Duke, where I got a chance to explore some my research interest in neurobiology. And also I was part of the obviously, Department of Surgery and neurosurgery and also pediatrics. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:52] And you’ve been here in Austin since 2006, and you’re the chief of pediatric neurosurgery here at Dell Children’s Medical Center. Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:17:01] That’s why I got recruited here to do. And then I made the biggest mistake. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:05] You get a signing bonus? Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:17:06] No, I said yes. And then you say yes to stuff two much. Now I have four jobs, which really you know, I came here for two reasons. One, one was to to be a part of the new hospital’s opening up and develop this pediatric neurosciences, but also really be a part of the future for how health care was being changed here with the new potential medical school. The new medical school has been talked about for years. It’s not new in concept. And when I got recruited here, that was really the forefront of discussion. And at that point in time, my career in life, even at Duke, I thought being able to come in and be a part of something new in a city as dynamic as Austin at the ground floor is just an opportunity that doesn’t exist. It really only exist in two places in the country, which was probably Austin and Pheonix, and I thought also was a better place in Pheonix to try to build it. And not just because I have something against Pheonix, but of course also had the elements that were here, had the big university here. It already had a a burgeoning, you know, hospital and health systems. It had the community which rallied behind it. They put their money into it and seeing all that and people wanted it so bad to me, it was a no brainer to be a part of that. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:20] Give us an idea without being too technical. Okay, You chief of pediatric neuroscience here, but you’re also a practicing physician. So obviously there’s a management part component that you oversee, but also that you are a practicing physician along with other physicians in pediatric unit. Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:18:40] Yeah, but they go hand in hand. Okay. That’s a long story. So, yes, I want to be chief of something that means that your your your job is to help set policies and procedures. Okay. Okay. But I also am CEO of the Physician Corporation. So we have multiple disciplines. So not just neurosurgery, neurology, ophthalmology. I also run that, too. Okay. And I’m also one of the vice presidents in the in the health systems and also on faculty duty. So I have a lot of hands and but all they all fit together. How do you set. So the goal really is how do you set how do you set the vision and goals for really what you want to do is delivering health care. To do that, you need to develop excellence in clinical care. So I need to do that by being in on it. I need to be a part of it and take care of kids, be at the forefront at the front lines, but also be a part of saying. Then you can see, Hey, we need to change these ways. We’re doing it and make adjustments and adaptations and change the policies we need to also a component that we need to. We find those gaps and what we can do that requires, I think, more research to understand what those gaps are and investigate. Though she had to be investigative on top of that, you can’t be sustainable. Sustainability is twofold. Sustainability is partially making sure you’re financially whole. But the other part of sustainability and when it comes down to even just waste basically by not taking care of somebody, is training others to build a legacy, train them how to think, and they build a legacy that sustains itself also. So you want to educate. You want to care for kids and other patients and all patients and you need to be investigated and thought and never lose that. You need to do research across the whole dimension of what you call research. That’s what it really means. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:28] You mentioned research. So what research are you currently engaged in? Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:20:32] My my my…specific areas scientifically I’m what is called a developmental molecular cell biologist. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:43] Okay. Speak English. Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:20:44] Yes. So I want to know, like kids are developing, they’re growing. Things are being formed, put together, connected together and wired. I want to know how that happens, okay? I wanna know what causes that, Not just looking at it from at the level of a big brain, but I want to know how the cells work. I want to know what controls those cells. I need to know the molecules. The molecules thing that control those cells, whether it’s the genes or proteins or whatever it is. I want to know what controls those cells and what. And therefore, the big part of that clearly is when it goes wrong, what happens. And so that’s that’s my so I use that term of a developmental molecular cell biologist because that’s really how I think about the nervous system. I want to know how it develops. And particularly I always have a more bent toward kids. So this is wonder how it develops. I want to know what controls it and therefore when something impacts it, whether it’s a you know, something they’re born with, some thing that grows like a tumor or whether it’s where they’re injured, how that affects that, all those processes. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:49] If you’re just joining us, you’re listening to In Black America. I’m John L. Hanson Jr., and we’re speaking with Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. He’s the chief of pediatric neuroscience at Dell Children’s Medical Center in Austin, Texas. We mentioned earlier, when I mentioned earlier how I came in contact with you were in a book called Real Role Models by Louis Harrison, a professor over at the University of Texas. Why is it important for you to participate in that book of letting African-Americans know that there are Dr. Timothy M. George’s out there and what’s possible, what has been possible for you is also possible for them? Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:22:25] Well, first, I really appreciate it. I was honored again and appreciate being in that book. The main reason why I’ve even agreed to be in the book was that I don’t look at myself as being this big person. I don’t think I’m you know, one great thing about going to New York, you learn you you never the dumbest, you never the smartest, you never the ugliest, but you never the prettiest either. You never the shortest, but you never the tallest. So one thing I like to say, I look at myself as being a normal person. And also I knew growing up that normal people weren’t doing the things that I’m doing today that wasn’t in the in the cards. So I really wanted to be able to be able to show that, hey, you know, a normal person like me, I’m nothing different than anybody else can do these things. So if I can do it, you, you and you can do these things also. So that was really my drive to be a part of it. I don’t look at myself as being this enigma or a superstar. I think too often in the media, you know, I think Blacks are often, you know, the ones who do so well are either they seem to be special, almost like super gods, something above and beyond normal people. You know, they’re either they sing too well, they don’t too high, or they seem to do something so special that nobody else can do. And that’s why they recognize so people, they respect them, they revere them, but they don’t really feel that they can really follow those paths. And I think that for me, I want to show people they can do those things. They can be CEOs of corporations, they can be a neurosurgeon, they can be a scientist, I can be a rocket scientist. I can fly to the moon. And that’s all good. And they can be a neurosurgeon. And that’s there’s nothing that’s not possible about that. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:07] On your off days, I understand now that you’re professional racecar driver. Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:24:11] Yeah, I got my professional license. Well, I did say I played basketball, so I have a little competitive spark to me. But as you get older, you have starts hurting, your knees start hurting. You can’t play ball and it doesn’t work anymore. Even if your mind thinks you can do it, you just can’t do it. So I could find I did find I can fit in a race car. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:32] And to have that experience, it’s amazing is that you go up to 200 miles an hour. How fast have you driven. Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:24:39] Who knows? There’s no speedometers in there you go as, no, you go as fast as you need to go. I mean, I’ve gone probably got 170 and 180. I don’t know. But the the real thing. One reason why I also like, besides competitive nature of it, is that is the one thing I can do that I don’t think about anything else while I’m doing it. So there’s there’s a moment where it’s very peaceful for me. I don’t think maybe playing golf is okay, but I think I don’t even play golf because I think I think too much. I really think too much as it is on a daily basis. I need things that allow me to remove from thought so I can just focus on one thing. And and enjoy that. And it’s much more physical than anybody ever thought. Think I never thought it was as physical as it is. I mean, you really get a workout. I come out of a car even after 20 minutes, I’m drenched with sweat. And and so it’s really a blast. It’s really a blast. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:31] Any final comments, Dr. George? Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:25:33] Well, this has been an amazing experience for me, so I appreciate you and all the work you’ve done. I’ve heard a lot of your interviews. So this is an extreme honor for me. I’m humbled and just sort of blown away. I think that again, I really say a person like myself, I am not special. I know tons of kids. When I was growing up, I felt were just as smart or smarter than me. I think the only thing I’ve had I’ve had a lot of blessings, but I think I also was courageous. I was where I was. I had I did have something unique and that I was courageous enough to do things to outside of my comfort zone. And and I wasn’t afraid to say if I didn’t if it didn’t work out and I failed at it, do something else. And I tried a lot of things. I wasn’t successful. And I never felt that. And I never felt at any time that my inner confidence was ever shaken from just because I wasn’t successful at something, who I failed at something. So I just encouraged people to, you know, not in a very sort of out of touch way, follow your dreams, but go after things and don’t be afraid to go after them and no matter what they are. And but it does take a special quality of confidence. It does also take a little introspection, know yourself, know your true skill sets. My skill set is not being a neurosurgeon. My skill set is loving people. My skill set is embracing kids. My skill set is being able to be lead, to lead people and to think bigger than than my little brain would want to think. Those are my skill sets. And with that, the platforms I use of neurosurgery or leading organizations or whatever that might be, or just trying to be a father and a husband, those platforms are just ways I can use those skills. So I just say, you know, I just always want to encourage people to use their inner talents and but you got to take time to find those in their talents. And they’re really to the characteristics of who you are. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:36] Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D., former chief of pediatric neuroscience at Dell Children’s Medical Center, located in Austin, Texas. Dr. George died on November 10th, 2019. He was 59. If you have questions, comments or suggestions, ask your future In Black America programs. Email us at In Black America at kut.org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John L. Hanson, Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing In Black America CDs, KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keeton St. Austin, Texas. 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio. The post Dr. Timothy M. George, MD. (Ep. 9, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.